If the Democrats win next week, they will suddenly drop any issue they had with e-voting.

It's far more important to make require ID, to prevent people going from precinct to precinct voting for their preferred candidate multiple times.

Nonetheless, paper trails can also play a role. Let's do both, and avoid abuses like this:

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_10_29-2006_11_04.shtml#1162144706

"I See Dead People (Voting)":

An analysis of state-wide records by the Poughkeepsie Journal reveals that 77,000 dead people remain on election rolls in New York State, and some 2,600 may have managed to vote after they had died. The study also found that Democrats are more successful at voting after death than Republicans, by a margin of four-to-one, largely because so many dead people seem to vote in Democrat-dominated New York City.

If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny. Republicans don't mind their friends a Diebold putting out voting machines susceptible to being hacked, but they get bent out of shape about Chavez' company selling equally suspect equipment.

Does anybody give a damn about the inegrity of the American voting system, or we reduced to all partisan politics all the time?

You're missing the point of this story. When Democrats win in those areas, there will be charges of voting fraud, and they will be made loud and long. Getting this buzz in a week before the election is laying groundwork for confusion and accusations afterwards.

Somehow I doubt these federal officials have any intention or interest in turning the scrunity onto voting machines manufactured by Republican Donors. Evil Hugo, oh that's just not right. Must be something wrong there. But when they have the same motive and opportunity to their benefit, well nothing to see here.

The biggest issue with the voting machines isn't sabotage from their makers, but loose security and non-existant redundancies. Things can go wrong a lot more readily from incompetance than from intent.

In another survey, researchers have found that 37% of the American electorate does not know the meaning of the word quagmire and in a strange coincidence, they all support GWB.

Am Hawk - in that article, it says "2600 who may have managed to vote", emphasis on "may have." They followed up on seven specific voters and found that all seven were paperwork errors, not fraud. For example, some were people that the government thought were dead, that weren't. Some were people that were marked as having voted, who didn't.

Long story short, that's not much data, but when *all* of your data points to "no fraud," that's not much of a story.

See THIS for why Al and I aren't worried about next week. It is nice that no one is paying attention!

We discussed this on DKos and my suggestion was that someone put the source code and HOW to easily hack the voting machines on the internet so hackers from Russia, China, North Korea, Iran and Venezuela could get at them very easily and use them to force conservatives to realize that their votes are threatened to.

I'd support whoever did this even if they had to go into hiding because they'd be a patriot.

MNPundit-- That's a good point. Hackers from those countries would doubtless want Democrats in power, encouraging conservatives to take the issue more seriously. I like the way you think! Thank you for being intellectually honest.

Everyone in America needs to read this step-by-step guide on how to hack elections. I totally agree that if this story gets Republicans worried about e-voting security, then it's a good thing. I doubt that there is a problem with Hugo Chavez per se, just as I doubt that Diebold is really throwing elections for Republicans, but the security of these machines is in such a sorry state that I welcome any hyperbole that draws attention to the issue. The point is, you don't have to be in charge of Smartmatic or Diebold to throw an election; you just have to be a clever person with some programming experience. What we need is secure, open source voting machines with a voter verified paper trail.

I think Digby has the correct take on this, Kevin.

The fact that the government is investigating Hugo "sulphur" Chavez's alleged interest in election machines may very well be part of an emerging post-election GOP narrative. I have believed that Republicans might claim vote fraud in this election for some time.

Everyone in America needs to read this step-by-step guide on how to hack elections. I totally agree that if this story gets Republicans worried about e-voting security, then it's a good thing. I doubt that there is a problem with Hugo Chavez per se, just as I doubt that Diebold is really throwing elections for Republicans, but the security of these machines is in such a sorry state that I welcome any hyperbole that draws attention to the issue. The point is, you don't have to be in charge of Smartmatic or Diebold to throw an election; you just have to be a clever person with some programming experience. What we need is secure, open source voting machines with a voter verified paper trail.

If the Somerby speculation is correct, this is a despicable yet brilliant move for the Republicans. It provides them with a narrative that appeals to The Base (Al Queda?) on so many different levels. Lee Atwater will roll over in his grave. Nixon will nod and wink.

What makes anyone think that Chavez wants the Republicans to lose?

Can we just draw the curtain on the whole electronic voting fiasco? Personally, I will never cast an E-vote. When my county went Diebold, I went absentee.

I suspect that this was instigated by Smartmatic's competitor, Diebold. Smartmatic just took a large contract away from Diebold, according to commentary on the Dianne Rehm show this morning.

If I were Chavez, I'd want Republicans to win.

Republicans=high oil prices=more oil revenue for Venezuela.

Sounds more like a clever way to say Democrats stole the election, you know, the way they were somehow responsible for Mark Foley.

So, that little speech at the U.N. calling Bush the Devil was reverse psychology?!

It's far more important to make require ID, to prevent people going from precinct to precinct voting for their preferred candidate multiple times.

How could that possibly prevent people from registering in multiple precincts and voting, carrying along their ID as they go? There's no communication of voter rolls between precincts.

We are now in the feces-throwing phase of the Republican anti-election campaign. There is nothing honest about them, including their sudden concern about the voting system their friends have installed for them.

From now until some time after the election, look for every Republican who stands a chance of losing to call the machines into question. They intend to plaster the process with feces in order to make it distasteful and confusing for the rest of us. Then they plan to do what they have done year after year: steal just enough to win--in the courts, if necessary.

So, that little speech at the U.N. calling Bush the Devil was reverse psychology?!
Posted by: Chuck on October 30, 2006 at 2:10 PM | PERMALINK

It's called "appealing to his base"

George Will (love his analyses, hate his conclusions) makes the point that voting machines greatly improve, but do not guarantee, accurate voting. There will still be malfunctions and miscounts, both mechanical and human, as always. Hopefully far fewer.

However, many people apparently believe that voting machines DO guarantee perfection, and will consider any flaws to be intentional. Look for a record number of result challenges based on charges of voting machine errors this election.

Osama_Been_Forgotten,

Which one is it? Chavez wants the Republicans to win or Chavez is appealing to his base?

*There is nothing honest about them, including their sudden concern about the voting system..*

Speaking of 'sudden concerns':

Some DFL candidates are proposing middle-class tax cuts, as well as funding for education and other programs. My conservative friends say, "How can you have tax cuts AND increased spending?"

I say, "Where the hell has that question been buried the last six years?".

Jay: How could that possibly prevent people from registering in multiple precincts and voting, carrying along their ID as they go? There's no communication of voter rolls between precincts.

Good question. It doesn't stop them from registering in multiple precincts. It does stop them from giving different names in different precincts. It's not that hard to look up the voter rolls, find out who hasn't voted in the past few years, then go and give their name to the addled senior citizen volunteering at the polling place. This would make that a thing of the past.

First, Hugo isn't anti-American, he's just anti-Bush. Second, this is just a very sophisticated joke on his part to make the administration paranoid. Unfortunately, it's over their micro heads.

Sequoia is the corporate parent of a private equity firm, Madison Dearborn , which is partner in the Carlyle Group. Strange bedfellows all round.

So, that little speech at the U.N. calling Bush the Devil was reverse psychology?!

Did Chavez speech make you less inclined to vote Republican, or more?

So, that little speech at the U.N. calling Bush the Devil was reverse psychology?!

No it was an astute observation.

Here's a rich one... I just heard on NPR that Maryland's Gov. Ehrlich (a Republican), who's running for reelection, has just announced he's voting on a paper absentee ballot because he doesn't trust the state election supervisor who's a holdover from the previous (Democratic) administration and someone whom Ehrlich has been unable to oust the last 4 years. Is this the opening salvo of a claim of election fraud if the Maryland Republican ticket doesn't emerge victorious next Tuesday?

Stay tuned for the onslaught of GOP activist judges, swarming the country to overturn Democratic victories.

"What's more, if a minor round of chest-thumping xenophobia and Hugo Chávez bashing is the only thing that will get conservatives to finally pull their heads out of the sand on this issue, I guess I'm willing to pay the price."

You give conservatives too much credit, assuming they are both logical and realistic. And your evidence for that is...?

Chuck: "If the Democrats win next week, they will suddenly drop any issue they had with e-voting."

No, we won't.

zmulls: "You're missing the point of this story. When Democrats win in those areas, there will be charges of voting fraud, and they will be made loud and long. Getting this buzz in a week before the election is laying groundwork for confusion and accusations afterwards."

Maybe. But so what? That means the Republicans are seeking a marginal advantage for this election. If it results in more secure elections from here on out, we Dems are way ahead.

Al,
Every time I go to vote, they make me sign in, and they compare it against the previous signature. It's much easier to provide a fake ID to that senior citizen then to just match signatures.

I know a Republican who used to vote in three districts. He voted by absenty ballot from his two previous residences.

How are these ids going to prevent him from continuing to do that? He'll get a new id every time he moves. When does the old id expire? Your id plan is full of holes.

Paper ballots with machine counting is the way to go. That system provides the convenience of machine counting with a paper trail.

Chuck wrote: "Which one is it? Chavez wants the Republicans to win or Chavez is appealing to his base?"

The two are not mutually exclusive, as even a little thought would show.

It seems to me this is a great way to disprove the myth of the liberal bias in the MSM. If after all the yelling and complaining about electronic voting machines the left has done, only to be met by total silence by the MSM, the right wing starts to yell and scream about electronic voting machines and the MSM pays attention to their complaints, that is proof of conservative bias in the media.

Of course most of us already know the liberal media myth is bull, but what might be fun is to write into your favorite right wing web site and tell them you have a way to prove conservative bias in the media. Explain that if the media pick up on this story after democrats win elections when they did not after republican election, that will be solid evidence. Of course this must be pointed out preemptivly to have full effect.

jayackroyd: How could that possibly prevent people from registering in multiple precincts and voting, carrying along their ID as they go? There's no communication of voter rolls between precincts.

Where is this? In California, voter registration is by county, not by precinct. Individual precincts get only their own list, but duplication elimination is done county-wide. It might be possible to register in more than one county and then drive all over hell to vote in each of them, but not in multiple precincts in the same county.

The Miami Herald has a story about voting issues in Broward County and how some Dems kept getting an indication that their vote was going to the Republican candidate for governor no matter how many times they tried to get their vote to go to the Democrat. curious that the default setting, or error, seems to go to the Republican on the ballot and that there haven't been any Republicans complaining that when they try to vote for Crist, they get Davis.

What makes anyone think that Chavez wants the Republicans to lose?

Chavez needs Bush the way that Bush needs Saddam.

What do you want to bet the "solution" to the issue they put forth is not to get rid of electronic voting but to require the companies be domestically owned.

Republicans frequently project - they accuse the Democrats of doing something the Republicans intend to do. Based on this, it seems the Republicans intend to use voting machine fraud (amon other means) to steal the election.

There are at least two major problems with AH's "analysis". First, as noted above, the actual story suggests that this is mainly a case of voting by people wrongly listed as dead. Second, the greatest potential for fraud here is in absentee ballots, which is where most cases of demonstrated vote fraud have occured, where the GOP seems to object to efforts to solve potential problems, and where picture IDs will do noting to solve the problem.

It's far more important to make require ID, to prevent people going from precinct to precinct voting for their preferred candidate multiple times.
Nonetheless, paper trails can also play a role. Let's do both, and avoid abuses like this:
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_10_29-2006_11_04.shtml#1162144706
An analysis of state-wide records by the Poughkeepsie Journal reveals that 77,000 dead people remain on election rolls in New York State, and some 2,600 may have managed to vote after they had died. The study also found that Democrats are more successful at voting after death than Republicans, by a margin of four-to-one, largely because so many dead people seem to vote in Democrat-dominated New York City.
Posted by: American Hawk on October 30, 2006 at 1:13 PM |

Yup. It's the old Rovian trick - accuse their opponents of doing what they're doing (voting fraud). That way if there is a Democratic victory next week, they'll holler to high heaven about it.

Oh, and this seems to be another story that Drudge pushed onto news cycle; he wrote about this days ago.

if everyone had to take IDs to the polls then EGOs and SUPEREGOs should be taken as well

Yeah, you'll know this was a slick trick by Chavez when you see that pro-Venezuela initiative appear on your ballot.

Actually, of course, the American oligarchy would have settled Chavez's hash long ago if Bush hadn't trapped our strength in Iraq. Every country in South America is taking the opportunity to go socialist.

As for Republicans demanding voting machines with a paper trail- that'll be the day.

Actually, of course, the American oligarchy would have settled Chavez's hash long ago if Bush hadn't trapped our strength in Iraq. Every country in South America is taking the opportunity to go socialist.

Yep. The domino theory sees a real-world application, and the wingnuts totally miss it.

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I got to see the CEO of Smartmatic at a press conference yesterday. He's a dual Spanish/Venezuelan citizen, and has merged a Venezuela-based office he founded as a start-up with Sequoia, a 100-year-old US company. That's the kernel that's creating all these rumors. Some reporter asked him about submitting his machines to audits. He basically said, if our patents are kept protected and the auditors are competent, he'll submit his machines to anyone, anytime. So I don't know if we'll actually get results, but I do know that they're saying all the right things.

The reason dead Democratic voters get to vote and vote often is because, most of us, are sinners. With a whole lot of time in Purgatory, we get to vote and vote until the Democratic Party is restored to the White House - Then, our tarnished souls can be released.

Pubs, merely float away to the Promised Land, where petty pursuits such as voting are no longer necessary.

Chuck: If the Democrats win next week, they will suddenly drop any issue they had with e-voting.

Well, they might try, but some of us won't let them.

For most of us on this issue, it's never been partisan. It's been about secure, honest voting, period.

I love this: Blame Chavez for a Democrat victory. It just isn't possible that Americans want a change. The implication is that the choice on November 7 is between Republican rule or fascism. And that assumes that Republican rule doesn't have fascist tendencies (it does) and that Chavez is a fascist (he isn't).

Um, if anyone is tampering with voting machines, it is the Republican Party.

I'm really sick of how the U.S. press is demonizing Chavez. The "New York Times" has been especially stupid.

This is really simple, as noted above.

Electronic voting machines controlled by Republican'ts=good

Electronic voting machines controlled by anyone else=bad

Reliable electronic voting machines=mythical

"He voted by absenty ballot from his two previous residences."

I'd like to know how he got ahold of the absentee ballots. Here in CA they are not forwarded, as you have to be registered at the address where you get your mail. If you've moved and not re-registered, you cannot vote.

If he had accomplices at his two previous addresses who handed him his absentee ballots mailed to those addresses, they were committing crimes, too.

Actually, the Sequoia machines are optical scanners that read paper ballots, so there's a full auditable paper trail for the election.

Using them for fraud is MUCH more difficult than with the Diebold machines.

Given the numerous and well-documented problems with touch-screen voting machines, as well as vote suppression and intimidation, it is interesting that the "problems" with absentee voting are routinely trotted out.

Absentee voting, like any large-scale system, is only as good as the procedures that implement it. In Oregon, where everyone votes by mail, every single voter signature (on an outer security envelope) is checked against the signature on the voter's registration card. Oregon is one of only two states (along with NY) that checks every single signature. Also in Oregon, the entire process, from stuffing the envelopes to send out the ballots, to receiving and opening the outer envelopes, to the signature check, to the counting itself is an open process, observable by any party interested in doing so.

In addition, the "no forwarding" rule for those who have moved means that Oregon's voter rolls are the cleanest and most up to date in the nation.

Oregon's Secretary of State, Bill Bradbury, calls his state's elections "fraud free". Bradbury is a Democrat, and his two predecessors in that office, one D and one R, are all strong supporters of Vote By Mail. Also, ask any County Clerk in Oregon, or in Washington (where 34 of the state's 39 counties vote exclusively by mail) or in California (whose Registrars called earlier this year for a switch to all-mail elections) and they will tell you that Vote By Mail is cleaner and more manageable than polling place elections.

Vote By Mail also guarantees a re-countable paper record of every vote.

Finally, keep in mind that with absentee ballots, any fraud which does occur is necessarily a one-vote-at-a-time endeavor, making it both difficult to impact an election, and easy to get caught. Whereas a single touch-screen voting machine malfunction (deliberate or not) can impact hundreds or thousands of votes.

I hope that we don't have a voting machine mess in the wake of this election. But I can tell you that in Oregon, the results of the election are unlikely to be questioned by anyone, win or lose.

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