ring ring ring click
Hello, I'm calling with information about Kevin Drum.
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Hello, I'm calling with information about Kevin Drum.
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Did you know Kevin likes to molest
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Hello, I'm calling-
Fuck you Kevin!
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I used to like this blog before the phone calls started!

When you get a call telling you bad things about a Democratic candidate, do you assume that the call came from the Democrats? The problem isn't that these robo-calls mislead voters. The problem is that Ken Mehlman was slick enough to set up the robo calls and Howard Dean wasn't.

The Republicans out-smarted the Democrats, and the Dems are whining about it.

"If you think that beating adorable little puppies into a bloody pulp with a tire iron while laughing maniacally is a bad thing, please press One."

Bob

I don't understand you bloggers. You live in a bubble. This is a huge potential story. You all have media contacts. Why don't you act like the thousands and thousands of volunteers around the country and phone bank the hell out of all the local and national press on this? Why just bitch to the converted on blogs and then, maybe in a month do a follow-up post shaking your fists about those dirty Republican tricks when the Rs get fines.

Good grief. People could file injunctions on their entire robocall operation over this, no? It might not put a stop to them, but at least it would be something offensive and powerful, rather than just one other item lost in the haze and buried in liberal blogs no undecided/uninformed voter will read. People need to know that these calls are TRICKS.

I hope the Dems make hey out of this tomorrow. Someone's got to. Oh, and Drum, how confident are you about all the latest poll number?

The latest campaign trick from the fine folks in the Republican Party is to make repeated robo-calls to voters that sound as if they're from Democratic candidates.

Hah? Where's your proof that Republicans are doing them? Answer: you have none. The most likely explanation is that Democrats are the ones behind this dirty trick and the American people have seen through it. Your dirty tricks have resulted in a backlash from the American people and now you're trying to blame the Republican Party. This is the same thing that happened with your orchestrated attacks on the troops by the John Kerry, and when you saw the backlash you attacked conservatives. Liberals are becoming unhinged as your desperate tactics to deceive the American people have failed and all you can do is attack Republican. The American people are tired of your dirty tricks and lies. I wish you libs would just fess up to your mistakes in starting the robo-calls but I don't that will ever happen.

The Republicans out-smarted the Democrats, and the Dems are whining about it.

Goddamit, why didn't we just think of lying to voters and misleading them? Oh, right, that's because Democrats have standards and ethics. It's hamstringing our political operation!

ex-liberal:

So you approve of automated telemarketing calls at 3am made under false pretenses, eh?

Heh. I guess the only thing you have left is pissing people off.

I'll bet this makes you feel really good about yourself, doesn't it.

Bob

A rove by any other name would not smell so bad.

If it works, they're geniuses. If not, they've just burnt Republican credibility a little further to the ground. And some of them may end up in jail.

My long-held opinion is that the GOP is nothing more than a criminal syndicate. So these tactics aren't surprising.

If we are ever to have anything even in the same neighborhood as an honest democracy, the current Republican Party will need to go the way of the Whigs. So long as they are part of our politics, the Constitution is in danger.

"The problem isn't that these robo-calls mislead voters. The problem is that Ken Mehlman was slick enough to set up the robo calls and Howard Dean wasn't."

It's clever, I'll give them that. But it's also absurdly pathetic. They can't win on their ideas and/or their candidates, so they have to resort to sucker punch tactics that scream desperation. How fitting for this group of clowns.

Al:

Get help, seriously.

This is no longer a mere matter of political disagreement.

You are mentally ill.

Bob

The problem is that Ken Mehlman was slick enough to set up the robo calls and Howard Dean wasn't.

As if to prove my point, we have a Gooper taking a dump on honesty and decency. Criminals, the whole lot.

"Hah? Where's your proof that Republicans are doing them? Answer: you have none. The most likely explanation is that Democrats are the ones behind this dirty trick and the American people have seen through it."

If you had bothered to read the Concord article, the RNC people make it very clear that they are the ones behind it. Take this, for instance: "The calls will continue as planned," said Alex Burgos, a spokesman for the NRCC, the national group charged with electing Republicans to the House.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061105/REPOSITORY/611050397

"exliberal" should be cock punched.
What a smarmy prick!

You probably cheat on your friends playing poker too.

Brian:

Don't even bother.

Al is off his meds.

Bob

These things are illegal in our state, but in other states...

...But even if they get prosecuted, someone dived on their sword and they do it again next year. Why does the GOP do it?

And do they have proof? Uhh, yes, all phone calls have their source and destination recorded. Their exact GPS coordinates are a bit less common, and sometimes you can't get the information right away, but...

I had a former friend in high school. Whenever he starting losing a game, he'd knock the board over, spilling the pieces. He'd resort to physical violence if necessary. Years later, at a high school reunion, he asked a single woman, when she said she wasn't married, if she was a lesbian. Years later, in 2004, he voted for Bush. He's a dedicated republican. And not a friend any longer.

This is what I think the Republican party is boiling down to. A bunch of jerks.

rmck1:

He has to be, unless he skimmed through everything so quickly that he missed key points, which we are all quilty of doing. But really, if you are going to post something so certain in tone, shouldn't you, you know, make sure you're correct?

Fake Democratic repeat calls are not the only robo-calls going on in the last few days.

The New York Times reports on another kind: New Telemarketing Ploy Steers Voters on Republican Path.

An automated voice at the other end of the telephone line asks whether you believe that judges who “push homosexual marriage and create new rights like abortion and sodomy” should be controlled. If your reply is “yes,” the voice lets you know that the Democratic candidate in the Senate race in Montana, Jon Tester, is not your man.

In Maryland, a similar question-and-answer sequence suggests that only the Republican Senate candidate would keep the words “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance. In Tennessee, another paints the Democrat as wanting to give foreign terrorists “the same legal rights and privileges” as Americans.

...
The Ohio-based conservatives behind the new campaign, which include current and former Procter & Gamble managers, say the automated system can reach vast numbers of people at a fraction of the cost of traditional volunteer phone banks and is the most ambitious political use of the telemarketing technology ever undertaken.

Rove invents a new trick: The November Surprise.

I love this. So it was the fault of the people Saddam Hussein killed that they were killed, it wasn't Hussein's fault. Not only that, their families shouldn't be whining because they should have outsmarted Hussein. Maybe this is the reason I think Bush,Cheney, Delay,Boner et al are stupid.

Bob, I've come to believe that Al is a parody. A kind of Andy Kaufman meets Patriotboy.

Well, there appear to be at least two flavors of this.

The first is what's detailed above; the deceptive robo-call to your opponent's supporters. John Kerry was doing that before the NH primary to Dean supporters, so it's not exactly a new innovation. And people wonder why I loathe John Kerry so much ...

The other flavor is less blatantly illegal, but it might be even more insidious. That's the push-polling robo-calls they're doing to Ford and a bunch of other people. "Do you think that liberal activst judges have too much power? Press One. If you knew that Ford claims to oppose same sex marriage but supports liberal activist judges, would that make it more, or less likely to vote for him? Press Two if less."

That gets the Corker campaign two things. First, a listing of people who actually sat through the survey and answered the questions to identify themselves as frothing social conservatives. They call these folks back for GOTV.

And two -- it just pisses the living fuck off everybody else.

Bob

16 soldiers killed in Iraq this month! Surely, this catastrophic war will lead to a political reordering on Tuesday. God help us, if it doesn't.

What's more, there's not even a hint of embarrassment. In fact, they sound pretty proud of themselves.

Oh, if only what we, in the Secret Republican Gay Sex Ring knew were made public - THEN they'd be embarrassed. Like Haggard. Like Foley. Like Gannon. Don't get your hopes up, Dems, the story about Bush giving head in the Oval Office isn't going anywhere.

plunge wrote: This is a huge potential story. You all have media contacts. Why don't you act like the thousands and thousands of volunteers around the country and phone bank the hell out of all the local and national press on this?... People could file injunctions on their entire robocall operation over this, no?

If these calls really mis-identified who produced them, then the Dems could do just what plunge suggests. That's one reason why I don't believe the calls are deceptive. Also, if the calls were illegal, the NRCC would be trying to hide their involvement.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that there's nothing on these calls claiming that they're coming from Democrats.

This time, though, the desperate tactics are coming straight from the Republican central committee.

No interest in democracy there, it comes as no surprise. But bragging about what is a probably illegal attempt to subvert an election is certainly news.

At every part of Republican life they have now revealed themselves to be a criminal enterprise, and now an overtly traitorous enterprise, at a moment when we need to have our democratic and egalitarian values on exemplary display for all the world, they try ever harder to make a mockery of them.

Why do we permit people like this to organize themselves?

***FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE***

The denial of involvement in the "caller motivation program", or "robocalls", is no longer operative.

The phrase now is "They are done independently of [candidate's] campaign. S/He has nothing to do with them."

Please adjust your talking points accordingly.

...And two -- it just pisses the living fuck off everybody else.
Posted by: rmck1 on November 6, 2006 at 1:14 AM | PERMALINK

Heh - I wonder what effect it's having on legitimate pollsters (ie. I bet they get a lot less participants than they used to.)

The Founding Fathers would be so proud!

jimBOB:

No, Al is not a parody, and when he's at the top of the thread, he's not a spoof. His rhetorical voice is pretty recognizable. And sometimes, he's have a little back-and-forth with Hawk. He seems like a real person, sadly enough.

The reason why I'm sure he's not a parody is because he has absolutely no sense of humor.

Which isn't to say, of course, that some of his posts don't make you laugh. But in a decidedly "at you," not "with you" way ...

Bob

If these calls really mis-identified who produced them, then the Dems could do just what plunge suggests.

I agree with ex-lib on this. If this is fraud in such massive scale, and the Dems cannot expose it in the national media, then they probably deserve to lose. As I posted last night -- too much Democratic chicken counting recently, while the Republicans have rolled up their sleeves (literally for Bush) and are fighting hard. Anyone remember Dukakis taking the high road to hell?

If this is fraud in such massive scale, and the Dems cannot expose it in the national media, then they probably deserve to lose.

The Dems may, indeed deserve to lose. But the world does not deserve another 2 years of this Bush bullshit.

ex-liberal:

You know, you really need to be bitch-slapped. With a tire iron.

Don't be such a total asshole, woudjapleez. Obviously if the calls are on behalf of a Democrat (at thee o'clock in the FUCKING morning) and they're coming from the RNC, then they're deceptive.

Do you have, like, a moral bone anywhere in your body?

Bob

JS:

Thanks for your concern, troll.

Bob

The Republicans out-smarted the Democrats, and the Dems are whining about it.

Yeah, because we Dems aspire to be a bunch of lying, cheating, con-artist thugs, just like the GOP.

Good lord, these people are horrible, and our side does whine too much instead of standing up and unequivocally stating just how horrible they are. This ain't a matter of 'bad apples;' this is what Republicans are like at their rotten little core, and all of the professed decent people who support them are enablers at best and accomplices at worst. I have no use for them politically, socially, or personally.

"If these calls really mis-identified who produced them, then the Dems could do just what plunge suggests. That's one reason why I don't believe the calls are deceptive. Also, if the calls were illegal, the NRCC would be trying to hide their involvement."

The thing is, the calls don't mislead about the identity of the call--if the entire message is played. But the point is, the entire message isn't played, because the Republicans are calling at odd hours, making people hang up. Thus, it's misleading in the sense that it creates a false impression. Of course, the GOP is going to hide behind the defense that it's not their fault that those they are calling hang up. As I said before, it's very clever, but it's truly pathetic.

And how are the Democrats supposed to expose something that has happened in the last few days? It's not as if this nonsense has been going on for weeks, and with good reason: if it had, the Republicans would have been caught in time to really put the nails in the coffin.

the world does not deserve another 2 years of this Bush bullshit.

No argument from me on this. But don't you agree that such a huge fraus should be easy to expose -- even with paid national TV ads if necessary?

"That's one reason why I don't believe the calls are deceptive. Also, if the calls were illegal, the NRCC would be trying to hide their involvement."

If you weren't so repeatedly ignorant of what you are talking about in this thread, I might not have had to explain this to you, but the current punishments for these sorts of acts are just fines, and maybe an occasionally flunky going to jail. The RNC has plenty of money to pay the fines: they don't have much need to hide it, and they can't (phone records and audits of campaign spending). They'll just break the law, pay the ticket, and move on with their lives.

And Kevin Drum, apparently, will just sit back and watch TPM "be all over this" by which he means "posting lots of blog posts about it that most voters will never see instead of contacting every reporter he knows in the local and national media and demand that they cover the story."

JS:

You're another one who needs to be slapped upside the head.

There's a piece in the NEW YORK FUCKING TIMES today, O Disingenuous One. I think, in fact, you quoted it.

That "national media" enough for you?

Bob

rmck1, I supose you imagine that you are the only Democrat allowed to express concerns. You truly are an idiot. Get a life.

And where does that New York Times article say that there are fake Democratic calls made by Republicans?

Plunge is right. These things are decidedly unethical but only borderline illegal. Your complaints (should you get any of these calls) should go to the FCC. And then, maybe after the election, they'll get around to issuing a fine or charging some low-level local office dude with a misdemeanor.

And there are two flavors of it. The push-polling, as stated in the NYT article, even Democratic strategists admit is not illegal.

The calling on behalf of the opposing candidate is absolutely fraudulent and might indeed be. But it's not going to stop the RNC, since they have "the cost of doing business" in their pocket.

Bob

JS:

I'm sorry for getting a tad hotheaded about this -- but you seemed to be making excuses for it. This is just so mind-bogglingly exasperating ...

It's obvious what the strategic purpose of this is. The RNC is attempting to neutralize the enthusiasm advantage by shitting in the Democratic punchbowl. All they need to do is piss off a percentage of us into not voting, to compensate for their own sagging base -- and they're in.

It's a subversion of democracy every bit as nefarious as hacking voting machines or sending letters out to Hispanic communities telling them they'd be arrested if they tried to vote.

Bob

Bob

The reason I think Al's a parody is that there's just breathtaking dishonesty in every post, combined with Al's pressing of utterly absurd points (in the sample above, he blames Dems for robocalls which actually admit within the later text of the call that they are from GOP candidates). And it's not like he's fooling anyone in this thread. The two explanations are mental illness (not too likely IMHO; he's pretty lucid) or a really dedicated parodist.

I brought up Andy Kaufman because he did just this sort of thing - play-acted dramas that he pushed to the point that everyone thought they were real.

I think Al's job is to test-market the more ludicrous wingnut talking points.

Listen - the Republicans have some compeletely unsupported allegations about a Democrat somewhere and John Kerry may have made a mistake talking the other day. How dare you care that Republicans are violating election laws and engaging in illegal conduct! How date anyone care about 13 dead American Soldiers in 3 days! How dare anyone believe in anything.

Republicans seek to destroy hope. That is their root goal.

Disputo:

Heh.

jimBOB:

Well sure, I understand the style: deadpan sardonicism. For as long as I've posted here, people have thought Al was a parody. What I see, though, is the same stodgy, dogged voice day after day. It may not technically be mental illness (Al at one point revealed he's some sort of bureaucrat working at a Texas university), but I do think his contradictions and inability to see the facts directly in front of his face are a response to a rather radical level of cognitive dissonance.

I just don't think a parodist, for instance, would post links. Al's always sourcing his stuff -- from NewsMax, WorldNetDaily, NRO. Would a parodist bother to make such a contortion merely for the sake of maintaining a believable wingnut persona? I kind of doubt it.

Al's Mommy is clearly a parody, in the same deadpan sardonic style. But Al's Mommy is genuinely *funny* (I love the way she captalizes BABIES :) ... it's hard, thinking about it, to find a concrete way of explaining the difference ...

But it kind of hits you in the face :) Or at least it does me.

Bob

The only article I have found that discusses the fake robo-calls is this one int the Concord Monitor. It says:

The state attorney general's office said Friday it was investigating complaints about the calls but could not say when the investigation would be finished.

That seems to suggest that it's not a open-and-shut case.

I still believe that if this is happening in a scale large enough to make a difference, the Dems shout spend their last advertising dollars exposing the Republican fraud nationwide, and send all their talking heads to to networks to do the same. A campaign needs to serve some red meat to the people, to show some nerve. Right now red meat is a specialty of the Republicans.

JS:

I totally agree with you there. And whether or not it's some kind of arcane violation of an FCC rule or not -- I think the people can understand it, because people *loathe telemarketing calls*.

Turn it into an ad: Joe blow uses junk phone calls to harrass voters." Something direct and punchy, to question the candidate's character.

Problem is, we're really too close to the election for anything to make a difference short of a court order to desist.

Bob

JS:

And that's why they only started doing it this close to an election.

Bob

I wouldn't sweat this dirty trick too much. I think democrats have done a decent job in the last couple years of driving home the idea that Republicans seek to drive down the vote. I saw Carville smack Ed Gillespe around with that notion on Larry King tonight.

Although, telling the candidates to broach the subject might not be a bad idea. I'm sure all the ads and the dems overlapping GOTV efforts have managed to get on the nerves of some voters. Pinning the blame on GOP dirty tricks would be a nice counter-attack.

I agree with ex-lib on this. If this is fraud in such massive scale, and the Dems cannot expose it in the national media, then they probably deserve to lose.

...Because the Democrats don't have the money or the ability to sway public interest into things important yet boring, they deserve to lose.

What sort of logic is this, anyhow?

The, 'Someone is cheating, cheaters win, so those who don't cheat should lose.' excuse?

This time, though, the desperate tactics are coming straight from the Republican central committee.

It's not just this time.

In my own lifetime, I can recall Republican dirty tricks' campaigns (authorized and paid for by the RNC) every single election cycle going back to Nixon. Here's one from the last election.

Bush would love to think of his Presidency as being Reagan 2, but in fact it's Nixon-Watergate Redux. Same players, same ideology, same diseased foreign policies and world views.

I heard John Dean say something on C-Span today that should sober up all voters who are hoping that if Democrats prevail in Tuesday's election, that will cause the GOP to reconsider their far-right positions and tactics.

"If Republicans lose one or both houses of Congress on Tuesday, they will redouble their efforts to win in 2008."

Winning is the only thing to these Republicans - they have no interest in bipartisanship, in working with Democrats, in cooperating or compromising with other Americans.

What's more, there's not even a hint of embarrassment. In fact, they sound pretty proud of themselves.

Because these Republicans (these far right-wing conservatives and neocons) who have taken over the Republican party and kicked moderate Republicans to the side are characterological. Sociopaths. Not all of them, but enough of them in positions of power, at the top of the party, to embolden others in the party (or inspire others) to do their bidding. Or intimidate and threaten others into getting on board. People with no strong self-identity, who recognize Bush-Cheney to be without ethics (or reflections in a mirror), but are afraid to say no and just walk away.

Look at the jobs this White House gave to a generation of young (barely out of college), inexperienced Bush-Cheney2000 campaign workers who showed up post-election 2000 in Florida? Bush-Cheney sure showed their gratitude, and gave high-level jobs throughout the U.S. government to these kids, over moderate Republicans with years of experience in government. Why wouldn't others, seeing what Bush-Cheney have gotten away with, play ball if it means money and glory for themselves?

And then there are those with such strong egos, who don't agree with Bush-Cheney, but believe that they'll be better able to influence Bush-Cheney and the Republican party, but only if they are inside the administration. How stupid must Colin Powell feel, realizing that he got played instead of the other way around?

If you ever had any confusion about why the German people didn't stand up against the Nazi machine before and during WWII, observing the Republican party operate in contemporary America should clear it all up for you.

After seeing the Bush and Cheney negative campaign the last few days (especially yesterday and today), so brazenly insult Democrats and refuse to change course in this failing war, I can't help but conclude that the fix is in for Republicans stealing this election, too.

The war in Iraq is a losing issue for them, and yet Bush and Cheney are "in your face" about keeping Rumsfeld, about not doing anything differently. They're "in the face" of the American people on this!

They're going to steal another election, and yet they seem to not have a care in the world about it because there's no way they're going to lose this election. And, without paper receipts, no way for them to get caught. The news consortium has already announced it's quarantining and blacking out exit poll results, so the GOP will be home free. With an assist like this, why should they show any embarrassment?

Bob, I've come to believe that Al is a parody. A kind of Andy Kaufman meets Patriotboy.

Of course Al is a parody. He's been a parody for about 600 posts, and he's still fooling people.

The same sort of people who hang up after a phone call tells you why a Democrat sucks, and assume it's from the Democrats. The same sort of people who can't handle lever voting machines, paper ballots, butterfly ballots, punch cards, or ice cream cones that don't have a "This Side Up" sticker on them. Which is why we're in this electronic voting mess now. It wasn't the Republican's idea to try to idiot-proof the voting process.

I have caller ID, and ignore all the damn automated calls, just like I dump all the damn special-interest campaign brochures in the recycle bin. If I were sick, I'd turn off my phone when I was sleeping and let the machine take it. This is what people with brains do.

rmck1, I supose you imagine that you are the only Democrat allowed to express concerns. You truly are an idiot. Get a life.
Posted by: JS

Don't bother arguing with Bob. The guy is so thick he actually believes Al isn't a blatantly obvious parody troll.

Bob

You could be right; I'm certainly no psychologist. I just have a hard time reading Al's passage at the top of this thread and seeing a sincere human intelligence behind it. It just seems too bizarre.

Maeven:

They're going to steal another election, and yet they seem to not have a care in the world about it because there's no way they're going to lose this election. And, without paper receipts, no way for them to get caught. The news consortium has already announced it's quarantining and blacking out exit poll results, so the GOP will be home free. With an assist like this, why should they show any embarrassment?

Already laying the groundwork?

What will be the most fun if the Republicans pull their scorched asses out of the fire on Tuesday will be watching a bunch of you completely lose whatever minds you had left after the 2000 election. Right around the twist. Screaming Yellow Bonkers.

Alcoa is going to have to open two new plants just to keep you in tinfoil.

"The Mind Rays! THE ROVE MIND RAYS!!"

Crissa, you may be content to lose elections in the knowledge that your side did the honorable thing while the other side cheated. I am not. I'd rather that my side wins. And I'm not advocating answering cheating with more cheating -- I am simply saying that such cheating, if it is in fact happening, should be easy to document and expose. And it could be turned to advantage.

Do you remember the Michael Dukakis campaign? He was more than 10 points ahead of Bush Sr. and he got comfortable and lazy while Bush flooded the airwaves with Willie Horton ads. Guess who won.

Clinton's campaign was MUCH more nimble. News stories were written about how Stephanopoulos, who was doing PR for Clinton, would fire faxes to all networks within literally minutes of some inaccuracy being mentioned by a Republican -- sometimes reacting so fast the the TV interviewer would mention the Clinton position in the same show. Guess who won then.

jimBOB:

Well, you know, it's kind of sad, but there are lots of people like Al out there.

I mean ... *somebody's* buying Ann Coulter's books, right? And voting for Bush. And believing that the Iraq war is a success. And supporting Rummy all the way. And who want to deprive gay people of their civil rights because they think they're "special rights." And who'd like the Ten Commandments posted in public school classrooms. And who believe that a little "dunk in the water" is a "no brainer" just like Cheney said if it helps us prevent a terrorist attack. And who believe that our debt to the Chinese is meaningless because they themselves won't have to pay it. And who ...

You get the general idea.

Winda Warren Terra:

That's correct, I think Al's what he says he is: some Texas university bureaucrat who gets morning Kool Aid transfusions from the wingnut media.

Bob

JS:

I totally agree with you as a matter of strategy. I believe in hitting back hard when attacked.

I just think that as a matter of tactics, whatever we'd do would have to be in this coming news cycle to have any effect. And that might be exceedingly difficult if some official doesn't immediately rule the deceptive calls illegal.

Those just seem to be the facts of the situation.

Bob

You may be content to lose elections in the knowledge that your side did the honorable thing while the other side cheated. I am not.

Then you get out there and fire off the faxes instead of blaming others for not being proactive enough.

Whether or not they fire off faxes doesn't have anything to do with whether the news sources pay attention to them - we're in the age of Fox news, where nothing is as live as it seems to be, and no imposing facts should be mentioned lest the controlling powers and their loyal (if minority) fans shun you.

Crissa:

Well, if we could actually get the story out that the RNC was violating FCC rules by making harrassing calls to Democrats, I think it would have a lot of play.

Fox, after all, ran with the Foley story no matter how bad it made the GOP look -- even if a little later on they lent all their spinmeistering tools to minimizing it.

But the initial headlines would be extremely powerful for a news cycle or so.

This would be a worthy project if we can get the evidence and confirm it as illegal ...

Bob

Crissa, the media would of course ignore faxes from individual citizens -- as they should, since an individual citizen could not have any credible evidence on this. But I can assure you that a coordinated accusation of fraud made by the DNC and from a group of individual Democratic campaigns would get prime billing. Whatever you believe about the MSM, they would compete for this story.

And I think that 48 hours and even 24 hours would be enough time to do it -- if the Democrats have the goods (ie indisputable facts) on this. But I am not convinced that they do.

Bob

Yeah, I know some people like that. In most cases I think there's a combination of mindless tribalism with self-imposed ignorance. Coming here, Al gets exposed to plenty of conflicting views, as well as specific debunking of his postings, so it isn't plain ignorance. The tribalism is there in his writing, but doesn't explain why he keeps coming back here for more punishment.

I'm going to bed. Thanks, and I'll see y'all around.

The Republicans out-smarted the Democrats, and the Dems are whining about it.

ex-liberal, if I ever actually meet you, I am going to beat you to a bloody pulp with a length of lead pipe.

The problem, then, will not be that I have beaten you to a bloody pulp with a length of lead pipe; the problem will be that you didn't think of doing it first. I will have outsmarted you, and you will probably start whining about it.

If this is fraud in such massive scale, and the Dems cannot expose it in the national media, then they probably deserve to lose.

If the Jews really were being exterminated on such a massive scale, and they could not get any attention for it in the US national media, then they probably deserved to die.

The above two statements differ only in degree, not in kind or in logical structure.

I have caller ID, and ignore all the damn automated calls, just like I dump all the damn special-interest campaign brochures in the recycle bin. I

Another supposed wingnut outs himself as a parody troll.

(hint: real wingnuts don't recycle.)

Brooksfoe, as Clinton would say, depends what the meaning of "deserve" is. A better analogy would be:

If the Red Sox couldn't complete a single pass then they deserved to lose.

At tradesports.com, it's still possible to make a 25% profit by betting that the Democrats take the house Tuesday -- or a 300% profit betting that they take the Senate. (Of course you lose your money if you are wrong). Betting that they take both would bring a 350% profit if correct. That they lose both would bring 400%.

The actual probabilities reflected in the contract prices right now are:
GOP Senate 77%
GOP House 22.5%
GOP House + GOP Senate 22%
DEM House + GOP Senate 60%
GOP House + DEM Senate 4%
DEM House + DEM Senate 28%

The probabilities against each of the above events (contract bid) are about 1% - 2% lower.

If the Red Sox couldn't complete a single pass then they deserved to lose.

I am unclear what your meaning is here.

The Red Sox play baseball, so your analogy might be apt, if this is what you intended, in the sense that, indeed, whether or not the Red Sox could complete a "pass" does not have any bearing on whether or not they deserve to lose.

But there's nothing innately immoral about not completing a pass, whereas lying is to various degrees evil. So the analogy remains flawed.

More importantly, however, politics is not primarily a game. If the Red Sox win, they don't get to decide whether or not to send American troops to get blown up in downtown Baghdad, whether to run our government into the ground by increasing spending and cutting taxes on the ultra-wealthy, whether to order American agents to kidnap and torture people in secret prisons, whether to hand out multibillion-dollar no-bid cost-plus contracts to firms they have a personal financial interest in, and so forth. When the GOP wins, they are given the power to do all of the above; and they do.

What, is there something surprising agout THE republican party being scum? kevin, where have you been? ...fantasizing about some mythical republicans with integrity; that stand for something other than raw grabbing of power no matter what the costs - any ends justify the means - remember.

WANNA BET whether our fine MSM picks up on this tactic and reports it...OR, like "ex-liberal" and other brilliant moralists just applauds the cleverness of ROVE AND COMPANY...always the ethical "do the right thing" party! NAH, it's all about the WINNING at all costs...ELEPHANT OVER EAGLE, DOLLAR SIGN UBER ALLES!!!!!

As Gore Vidal has said, "the four sweetest words in the English language are, 'I told you so'". However, I take no great pride in reminding Kevin's readers that the Dirty Tricks Party was going to pull out some new treachery before this election was over and here it is. The sad part is, it appears to be working...

Look, the GOP is not capable of winning an election honestly. Their "ideas" suck too badly!

ex-lib,
Your concept of democracy is that one side should "outsmart" the other with sneaky tactics, heh-heh. Are you actually an American?

News Roundup

Crist To Bush: Please Don't Help.

Hastert "Not Hiding": Boehner.

Army Times To Rumsfeld: "Go, Now".

Attorney: O'Reilley Will Be Probed.

Diebold: All Set To Steal Your Vote.

Haggard Confesses "Sexual Immorality".

Cheney Hunts U.S. Ducks.

Ex-KKK Wiz, Lifer, Dies In Prison.

GOP Coming In A Little Behind.

=*=

In every election, there have always been individual wingnuts who go over the edge with desperate campaign tactics. It happens on both sides. This time, though, the desperate tactics are coming straight from the Republican central committee. What's more, there's not even a hint of embarrassment. In fact, they sound pretty proud of themselves.

Yes, and it's called winning, which is why you Dumbocrats can't come up with anything to match it.

Today I begin working to suppress the vote--I will don workman's clothing and go sabotage the buses that the local DNC is planning to use to transport people to the polls. (sugar in the gas tank is easier than slashing the tires).

It never hurts to send word to the local nursing homes to clamp down on their people by putting out the rumor of free flu shots for anyone who doesn't vote. We never actually give them the shots and that cuts down on the overhead.

Then I shall spread around a little cash and get every off duty cop that I can find to harass people outside of polling places on Tuesday. I call it having The Man take it to the people. A little pat down here, a little shakedown there and you have hippies avoiding the polls. (most hippies don't vote--too drugged up to find their way, you know.)

On Wednesday, I shall rejoice at the defeat of the Dumbocrats. And you wonder why you can't win an election!

Bwah hah hah hah hah hah hah!

Our turnout operation is state of the art. We even have robots pissing off dem voters at 30 cents a pop. House 5 Senate 2. Just wait till Tuesday and you'll see why they call him turd blossum. Posted by: American Hawk on November 6, 2006 at 12:34 AM | PERMALINK

Now Kevin is just ripping off American Hawk's comments. A little originality?

Let's assume that the liars and trolls here are just ordinary folk. What this means is that ordinary people who aren't paid to lie or support liars have now embraced lying and filth just as a matter of course. We used to draw a line between The People and Politicians. Now, that doesn't exist. Dirty Tricks?! Good on ya! Lies from politicians? Repetition coming up!

It's that willingness to embrace political filth so eagerly that's new. It's like lying for The Cause is the new marijuana. Something that nebbishes are afraid to ignore or they'll be left behind. Or worse. It could be the rise of the thug that presages Fascism.

Leave it up to the robocaller to alienate the voters as well

I believe Edmund Burke said it best: Win at all costs because if we lose we'll end up like the French [or words to that effect].

Conservatives always have and always will think this way: what's shocking is that you liberals still somehow manage to be surprised by it.

It's that willingness to embrace political filth so eagerly that's new.

It's a good thing you didn't live in the 1880s, you dunce. The reality is, American politics have been smash-mouth, nasty and brutal since the days of the Founders. The problem is, you Dumbocrats have been raising your kids in an environment where there are no losers, score is not kept at soccer games, and everyone has to respect everyone else's feelings. Bah! That's not the American way! Americans love a winner! Winning isn't everything, winning is the only thing.

Vince Lombardi is the greatest American thinker who ever lived.

But how many of you would last five minutes in a world where Coach Lombardi was President? Had the man lived, he would have easily been elected President in 1976. I encourage all of you Dumbocrats to sit on your hands and fret. It makes it so much easier for me to do my work.

Oh, and give everyone a trophy just for showing up!

Bwah hah hah hah hah hah!

This is a non-story. People expect Republicans to do this type of thing. Man bites dog. Now if Howard Dean was doing it, it would be serious news. Hippocritical people-powered voter suppression? The story would last a week.

I would put Vince Lombardi up against Edmund Burke any day of the week. I highly doubt whether Burke would know how to motivate Fuzzy Thurston to snap a man's spinal column in two pieces.

Norman, shush. the grown ups are talking now.

Well, I don't know about the hippos, but the hypocritical elephantcritical herd has run amok as usual.

It's that willingness to embrace political filth so eagerly that's new. It's like lying for The Cause is the new marijuana. Something that nebbishes are afraid to ignore or they'll be left behind. Or worse. It could be the rise of the thug that presages Fascism.

They learned that lying about what they were doing was energy-sapping and unnecessary. Stuffed with bread bought on credit and distracted by endless circuses, Americans are embracing a political, civic and social culture in which winning really is the only measure, and virtue, honesty and integrity are for schmucks.

This makes possible the Iraq invasion, torture, the wholesale discard of civil liberties and rights, a fuck-you-everyone foreign policy and everything else they've been up to all these years. Gosh, it's just so freeing for them to be able to speak frankly about it now! Whew!

Hey, Norm, I'd happily show up anywhere to kick your @ss. Game?

JS said:

If the Red Sox couldn't complete a single pass then they deserved to lose.

Along with AH, now JS has been outed as a non-American troll. (Who else would conflate baseball and football?)

The GOP is offshoring their troll needs. How sadly appropriate.

Norman, shush. the grown ups are talking now.

Pardon me for being the only one who makes any sense.

Does anyone know where I can find a couple of dozen homeless people to go into voting booths and relieve themselves? What with this economy being in such fabulous shape, there is a dearth of homeless people who I can pay to ruin some voting machines. I have a twenty dollar bill for any liberal who wishes to help me out. Any takers? That's a whole lot of munchies you can buy--almost enough to last you til Thanksgiving.

Thank goodness for electronic voting. My fear is that they'll ruggedize those delightful machines and make them impervious to fluids.

"Norman, shush. the grown ups are talking now." - cleek

That is such a tired juvenile refrain, of course most liberal rhetoric is.

"Hey, Norm, I'd happily show up anywhere to kick your @ss. Game?" - SavageView

Wow, a fighting liberal. Who would have thunk it.

Norman Rogers,

I would have no qualms breaking your jaw with a slight flick of my wrist.

AAAA

well, how else can the party of me retain power when our positions are so unpopular? tell me that, smart guy.

And Jay, I'll put your head through a plateglass window.

"And Jay, I'll put your head through a plateglass window." - SavageIdiot

I thought liberals abhorred violence? Are you a hypocrite or just weak?

Weel, the safeties for the Bears could not hit the cut off man, yesterday. Take that water logged!

Speaking of Edmund Burke, Winston Churchill wrote of him:

"His soul revolted against tyranny whether it appeared in the aspect of a domineering Monarch and a corrupt Court and Parlimentary system, or whether mouthing the watch words of a non-existent liberty, its towered up against him in the dictation of a brutal mob and wicked sect. No man can read the Burke of Liberty and the Burke of Authority without feeling that here was the same man pursuing the same end, seeking the same ideals of society and Government, and defending them from assaults, now from one extreme, now from the other."

I believe the Edmund Burke Trophy carries more hope for a Republic than that of the Vince Lombardi Trophy.

Your efforts will be for naught, Norman Rogers. We in the Democrat Party have already organized 2.3 million Mexican illegal immigrants to vote by absentee ballots in bedrock Republican districts. Also, entire cemeteries full of deceased Italian-Americans will be voting for the all-Sodomy-and-vegetarianism slate.

Our plan to annihilate Christmas proceeds apace!

Moo haaa haaaa haaa!

Wow, a fighting liberal. Who would have thunk it.

Now, now Mr. Jay. I have the liberals firmly in hand and there is no need to provoke them or get them riled up.

A hint to you--if they are of a mind to fight, that means they will turn out to vote tomorrow and that's why they need to be sedated and calm. I say shhh! to you sir, for you need not stick your pole into the beehive to find there's honey for all.

As to you Internet tough guys, well. Please remember--I'm a 64 year old man, but I have powerful legs. My arms are a bit skinny, but my legs are like small treetrunks. I can handle the likes of you--most of you have bad lungs and sunken chests from being indoors a great deal, playing your little computer games and feeling bad about yourselves.

I have the power of optimism, and don't ever forget this--I played football at Princeton, and in my day, I was quite the competitor.

TTP: Weel, the safeties for the Bears could not hit the cut off man, yesterday. Take that water logged!

Don't bother me none. I hate football.

Norman: I can handle the likes of you--most of you have bad lungs and sunken chests from being indoors a great deal, playing your little computer games and feeling bad about yourselves.

Okay, that made me laugh really hard.

As to you Internet tough guys, well... I played football at Princeton, and in my day, I was quite the competitor.

brahaha

The so-called ‘conservatives’ are only conservative in one aspect: they insist upon the authority of convention and on the authority of strong leaders. What the term ‘conservative ‘ hides is their insistence on submission to authority by themselves and others and their belief in using aggression to establish authority.

The Republican Party is not a party of Edmund Burke conservatives (American ‘conservatism’ is alien to the English tradition) or classic libertarians; it is a party of authoritarianism. Like other 20th century authoritarian movements it carefully manages the image of the Party. Nativism, xenophobia, aggression, and religious orthodoxy are all tailored to appeal to the fear and self-righteousness of authoritarian personalities. George Bush is the image of the moral Leader they find so appealing. For these people anything that looks like compromise or empathy or human understand is a form of weakness and defeat. They will never abandon the Party and the Leader no matter what happens. They followed Nixon even after he was shown to be a nasty paranoid crook. Somewhere around 20-25% of the American population will follow the Party to the bitter end.

This kind of single-minded power is something closed to both conservative and liberal non-authoritarians.

Norman Rogers: Princeton grauduate, posting on the comments section of a politics blog at the age of 64. brahaha. failure.

great fake Norm

Those waskly wepublicans. Dirty twicks - that's all they do!

Disputo:

Oh, it's the Norman persona all right. But it's hard not to begin to suspect that he isn't a creation of some James Carville-like Democratic consultant to shame cyber-Dems into going out to the polls through reverse psychology.

The voter suppression he's talking about is clearly the product of a fertile, if not fevered imagination. Norman does have quite an acuity with visual tropes.

bellumregio:

Good analysis. Richard Hofstadter comes to mind here, too, both Anti-Intellectualism in American Life and The Paranoid Style of American Politics.

Bob

great fake Norm

Fake Norm, real Norm--these are nebulous concepts without significant meaning or measurement. The Essence of Norm is what counts.

brahaha

You laugh, but at least I have an education from a decent institution of learning. What do you have, besides your GED and your hairnet from working at Arby's?

In 1962, we beat Columbia 33 to nothing. In the fourth quarter, I tackled the Columbia quarterback (cannot recall his name) so hard he threw up on his cleats and had to be taken out of the game for a set of downs. In those days, I would place a few nickels over the back of my hands and tape them down--devastating when I could bring my hands up and catch another player in the chinstrap.

I don't think the likes of you would cause me much grief. In fact, bring your asthma inhaler and snort up an extra dose of Angel Dust--it might make it a fair fight.

shortstop:

It's true. It's futile to speculate if the Normoverse is expanding or contracting, or whether it began with a big bang.

We already *know* it exists in 11 dimension :)

Bob

The Essence of Norm

it's less of a spicy Cajun "Bam!", and more of a suffocating blend of Aqua Velva and week-old B.O..

cleek:

Oh shit, cut it out ...

Bob

cleek: it's less of a spicy Cajun "Bam!", and more of a suffocating blend of Aqua Velva and week-old B.O..

Giggling into my coffee cup...

The voter suppression he's talking about is clearly the product of a fertile, if not fevered imagination. Norman does have quite an acuity with visual tropes.

Yes, well--you can just scurry back to where you came from, twit.

I just used ten pounds of sugar to disable forty-seven buses.

As I drive to the next vehicle storage facility (where I will pay the attendants a few hundred dollars to take an early lunch break), I can't help but notice that you have gotten it wrong once again--don't you understand? I know full well that I will get caught. I'm using a laptop with a wireless modem that lets me steal Wi-Fi--try tracking my movements. You can't! I'm like a cat with a mouse's tail, dangling from my lips! Meow!

Why do you not think two steps ahead? Winning the election is the only thing that matters. Yes, I know that I will get caught and be punished. But I have a slush fund to pay the fines. This is all in the post-election cost budget. But the fact is, after we win the election, we appoint the judges. Hello? Are you figuring this out yet? The judges will give me probation that ends, conveniently, before the next election cycle. So I have to sit out the 2007 election cycle? Big deal, kiddos.

And you wonder why I think you're morons. Morons who can't win an election, by the way.

Norman:

Nobody believes your Walter Mitty fantasies.

Bob

Some can argue that the modern Pub Party changed when the Southern Democrats switched their affiliations to the Pubs.

However, I believe that the party changed when Moe Dalitz met with Meyer Lansky and merged forces.

A campaign needs to serve some red meat to the people, to show some nerve. Right now red meat is a specialty of the Republicans.
Posted by: JS on November 6, 2006 at 2:14 AM | PERMALINK

That may be because a lot of Republican voters are neanderthals who eat red meat uncooked.

fighting liberal, my butt. i'm just looking for an excuse to kick jim webb's ass. navy cross, whoop-de-doo. i flew jets, little boy.

Norman:

If you *actually* disabled the engines of 47 privately-owned buses with sugar for the expressed purpose of voter suppression and allowed yourself to get caught, you'd face jail time, not merely a fine. And you couldn't pay to argue your way out of it.

As much as you'd like it to be, this isn't *quite* a banana republic just yet.

Although you're doubtless a Banana Republican.

Bob

Here in Michigan, the horrible phone calls that have made our home phone line basically useless the past week are coming from republican groups. I wonder if they are fake.

Nothing is as likely to get me to vote against a candidate as phone call. My phone line is by invitation only. Politicians should know that. They passed a law to stop companies from doing what they're doing. Why would they expect us to be receptive to their calls when we are all so clearly opposed to univited calls as to get a law passed.

Where's your proof that Republicans are doing them?

Ummm, they haven't denied it? C'mon Al, you've got to do better than that!

aaron:

That's quite true. The backlash potential to this is immense.

Bob

Yeah, I was doing a little bit of OK flying jets until I started flying coke.

But, what the hey, no dang Migs over College Station in my day!

If you *actually* disabled the engines of 47 privately-owned buses with sugar for the expressed purpose of voter suppression and allowed yourself to get caught, you'd face jail time, not merely a fine. And you couldn't pay to argue your way out of it.

What part of "we appoint the judges" did you not understand? I know full well that the license plates of my vehicle are recorded by the security cameras. I even gave a smile and a wave as I disabled the vehicles. I'm a rich old man and I have a mean streak--your honor, it will never happen again and I will be happy to pay for the damages. I just write the check and laugh at you, you know. It's all about the Benjamins, and it's all about winning. Enjoy losing much?

And you wonder why everyone thinks you're the biggest moron on this blog.

That may be because a lot of Republican voters are neanderthals who eat red meat uncooked.

hey now, this lib loves some carpaccio.

Here in Portland, OR, it has been "Hi, I'm Ron Saxton", the Pub for Guv, calls every day for weeks. For the past two days, we have had, one each, calls from the re-elect Governor Kulongoski (D) people.

Norman:

Local judges have nothing to do with ideology, you nitwit.

What -- you think that criminal court in the municipal building is going to decide abortion or something? :)

Vo