Has anyone found raw numbers for turnout?

A better solution to this so called 'religion' problem that the Democrats have is to give free copies of Richard Dawkins' works to every American citizens. I would add Feynmann's books for the more intelligent ones as well.

We will win everything back, once people realize you are willing to butcher 16-cell BABIES in order to cure CELEBRITIES like Michael. J Fox!!!

And anyway, Kevin, math is so hard. Much easier to repeat some story line heard elsewhere...

All very interesting Kevin, but if Bob Casey had been Pro-choice, what then?

Kevin:

Nontheless Kevin -- it does look like the start of a potentially expandable trend ...

If the evangelical base is beginning to look at issues like global warming, protecting the environment and helping poor people as a serious calling ... and if the Democrats continue to keep a low, federalist profile on some of the most divisive social issues rather than making them national cause celebres -- we *do* have a chance to win over a section of that base.

Jimmy Carter took a majority of white evangelicals, and the Party was pro-abortion then as well.

We can continue to increase these gains, I think -- if we continue to talk about Democratic values which uphold the common good.

Bob

Damn commas - Of course Kevin is interesting.

What are you complaining about?

If I was writing the stories I'd be talking about how dems won because they picked up 5 percentage points from lawyers and prostitutes.

"Common" excluding unborn children, right Bob?

thethirdPaul / stupid git:

Hoepfully, Casey would have lost. I will believe he is pro-life when I see it.

So, if you are rear ended, besides saying,"Oh that felt wonderful", who would you call, Whiplash Willy or Gannon's Outcall Massage Service?"

OK. But do evangelical votes usually shift in nearly the same proportion as other voting groups?

Jeffrey,

According to Christian theology wouldn't all those 'unborn children' go directly to heaven?

ferd:

I'm still looking to see how many 2004 Bush voters simply stayed home instead. I think that would account more for the difference.

nepeta:

No.

I guess the story is that religious voters should have voted in huge numbers for the Democratic candidates, seeing as how it is actually more attuned to fulfilling the teachings of Jesus and the Elmer Gantryization of the GOP was on full view. The GOP needs to change its symbol from the elephant to the ostrich.

You're going to make Amy Sullivan cry.

Nepata,

Perhaps if they were "special spirits"

And when the Catholics, come back ala the swallows to Capistrano, and give equal votes to a Pro-Choice candidate, then I will believe their return.

I disagree that the Democrats are more attuned to fulfilling the teachings of Jesus. Have you every read the Bible?

"Tell 'em Gantry - save 'em from their sin - lead 'em to Salvation - tell 'em everything, Gantry, but not about your whiskey and your women"

The Bible clearly says that we should not eat shellfish. That is why you liberals will lose.

"have you ever read the bible"

Well, a bunch of us, meaning the Donkey types, were shacked, er, hold up, in a Motel during a blizzard in the Dakotas a few years back, and there were these books in the drawers. Didn't have any funny pictures, but, when the hookers took off with the local Republican dishwasher, we had to do something.

Ah, but the Bible also says that we should not pray in public (Matthew 6:5-8), and that is why you evangelicals will lose, what with your trying to push school prayer down everyone's throats.

Kevin

The Washington Post people are on deadline. Cooperman has to write about something. A shallow look at conventional wisdom is as good as anything. The article filled a few column inches and apparently made the editor happy.

He means to ask if you have read the bible that justifies sending kids to die in a war based on your lies. Obviously you havn't read that special edition that's available only to the few with special permission to access Ted Haggard's closet.

I was asking Sparko if he / she has ever read the Bible. I also did not post at 1:00 PM. I am not a Christian.

Jeffrey:

Hmmm ... noticing that now you're spelling your name correctly, when before you made a big stink that your parents named you "Jeffery."

Chuckles, what you are is a disingenuous lying attention slut with a Jesus fixation and a Dominionist belief that the ends justify whatever shitty sort of dishonest means you care to use to put them forth.

You really should stop and consider how badly you make religious people look with your behavior here on a mostly liberal and mostly secular blog.

Bob

Is this what this is saying?

Josh Marshall points out this from the original AP story,

Those early exit polls also showed that three in four voters said corruption was very important to their vote, and they tended to vote Democratic. In a sign of a dispirited GOP base, most white evangelicals said corruption was very important to their vote — and almost a third of them turned to the Democrats.

Is it saying that 'most white evangelicals said corruption was very important to their vote' --yet only 28% of them voted for a Democrat?!

So 72% of white evangelicals for whom corruption was very important --voted for the Republican?!

If the evangelical base is beginning to look at issues like global warming, protecting the environment and helping poor people as a serious calling ... and if the Democrats continue to keep a low, federalist profile on some of the most divisive social issues rather than making them national cause celebres -- we *do* have a chance to win over a section of that base.

I agree - Democrats should leave the Gun Control issues alone - at least at the National Level - and let Cities ban them; and let rural areas keep them. Blanket gun bans make no sense.

However - I wish the Republicans would show that kind of sense for things like abortion and school prayer. Let the people who live in Taliban enclaves suffer under Christian Sharia.

No.
Posted by: Jeffrey on November 11, 2006 at 12:40 PM | PERMALINK

Biblical Scholar, Professor Jeffrey (PhD), and Holy Channeler for God's Will has declared that all unborn babies don't go to heaven. (When, in fact, the Bible says that life does not begin, and a human body does not have a soul, until the newborn takes it's first breath, and the Lord breathes spirit into the lungs.)

There is NO scriptural basis for a ban on abortion. Not without some logical gymnasitics.

There IS, however, scriptural basis for a ban on circles. Bible says that Pi = 3.0.

On my computer, I have been running a program (which I wrote for this task) for approximately 4 months now, nearly continuously, that computes the value of Pi to two places, and halts if the value of Pi is equal to 3.0. If Pi is not 3.0, it loops back to the beginning. After billions of cycles over the past 4 months, Pi is still not 3.0, and Scripture is still not perfect.

I disagree that the Democrats are more attuned to fulfilling the teachings of Jesus. Have you every read the Bible?
Posted by: Jeffrey on November 11, 2006 at 12:52 PM | PERMALINK

I disagree that any political affiliation enlightens spiritual attunement. The Bible specifically says it does not. Apparently, Biblical Scholar Jeffrey (PhD) has not read the Bible either. Or maybe he only read the parts that seem to justify him hating fags.

"You really should stop and consider how badly you make religious people look with your behavior here on a mostly liberal and mostly secular blog."

or you idiots could just stop constantly feeding him. attention sluts come in all political stripes. if you're not part of the solution ...

Dawkins! He's an extremist! We don't need facts or reason or free thinking -- that is just Extremist Propaganda!

And Sam Harris' "Letter to a Christian Nation"? How dare he quote the Bible! He's a heathen!

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” Matthew 22:21

Drudge says Tony Snow says,

Tony Snow on Dem suggestions to White House: 'This is not a time for floating ideas'...

Newsweek commiserates and tells us what we think,

Feeling Blue?
After the Democratic sweep of Congress, President Bush's approval reaches a new low. But voters want Democrats to chart a moderate course.

Feeding Norman can be amusing, at least for the first 20 minutes or so.

But feeding Charlie does tend to become toxic.

Point taken.

Bob

So 72% of white evangelicals for whom corruption was very important --voted for the Republican?!

Yes. What could be more corrupt than a Democrat party trying to get elected in a time of war? What could be more corrupt than exposing the hypocrisy of religious leaders in public? What could be more corrupt than forcing people to admit that they will continue to vote for policies that are bad for the country and contrary to their stated religious beliefs? Paper trails are the work of Satan!

Priceless photo of Ted Haggard on his knees 'worshiping' god,

http://radaronline.com/features/2006/11/confessions_of_an_angry_hustler_rev_ted_haggard.php

(scroll down).

Has anyone does exit polling on people with IQ

There may be a psychological factor at work here also. It is much easier to admit to a pollster that you are a single working mom or a college student than to admit you are a regular churchgoing evangelical who only recently realized that you had been gullible enough to buy into the Sacred Republican Bullshit for six years .

If a voting machine produced a paper trail it would be an insult to people of faith. It would dis their 'belief'.

Sorry the blogger ate the previous post.

Has anyone does exit polling on people with IQ

Well who ya going to believe; Alan Cooperman of the Washington Post or Kevin Drum?

I can honestly say, I don't really care how the numbers stacked up as long as they stacked up in the Dem corner. This attempt to categorize the voting populations into one thing or another has got to be a pretty ambiguous attempt anyway, so no matter what Kevin's micro-fantasy frenzies is with the election right now, it all comes down to mistrust of Bush and the GOP, end of story.

It's just WP writing for entertainment purposes, as always, no facts needed, no need to look at any real numbers, or make any phone calls, and for this, Kevin wants to give them a sheild law to help protect so-call journalist's and their right to hype, devoid of facts.

OK i give up. It's HTML. Can't use <.

This attempt to categorize the voting populations into one thing or another has got to be a pretty ambiguous attempt anyway,

The whole point of this is that some people DO take these numbers seriously, and it ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy as party money and resources are channeled towards the exploitation of a particular perceived strength.

Nobody wants to see the Democratic Party abandon its values of fighting Social Conservativism more than the Republicans. But I'm sure that the whores in the DLC are going to try to find any justification they can to try to turn the Democratic Party into Republican-Lite; including, by taking credit for the sweep. That's why this debate is actually important. And this is why the electoral equivalent of "entrail-reading" has to be shot-down.

Its my belief that one can't tell what is going on inside the minds of people by looking at the numbers of rigged elections, and slanted exit poll questions. (though exit polls ARE useful as a tool to double-check vote tally accuracy). One CAN tell by licking one's finger, holding it up, and testing to see which way the wind is blowing. It is blowing in the direction of "throw the corrupt bastards out; I work hard for my money, borrowing is not tax-cutting, and stealing is not responsible spending."

All this other prognistication is just a bunch of stagnant hot air.

Keep it up, Kevin. There's no story except for a small but important increase in a rejection of the GOP and their failed president. The electoral consequences make this sneaker wave look like a tsunami. It isn't. They'll be back in two years with a new moron in a white shirt.

Bob:

How exactly can I have a "Jesus fixation" or make religious people look bad when I am not a Christian. Also, my first and second name are the same, just with alternate spelling. My parents had a strange sense of humor.

OBF:

I never said I was a Bible scholar, but I have read the thing. Therefore, I agree with every point you made on it so far. There is nothing in the Bible that supports "age of accountability" without logical gymnasitics as well. Democrats like Amy Sullivan trying to take the mantle from Republicans choose to ignore select portions of the Bible too.

Keep after 'em Kevin! I think some how an awful lot of the right missed the part of the Bible that teaches that the truth will make you free. Keep on keepin' on!

As if the religious left don't do the same? Jesus was all over the map. Some of the things Jesus says in the gospels sound not merely liberal, but socialist. Others sound horribly conservative and reactionary. You carefully pick out the things Jesus said that suit your values and ignore the things he said that don't. As OBF pointed out, some conservatives do the same thing.

Democrats like Amy Sullivan trying to take the mantle from Republicans choose to ignore select portions of the Bible too.
Posted by: Jeffrey on November 11, 2006 at 2:11 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, I can agree 100% with that statement.

Neither the RNC, nor the DLC, really BELIEVE any of this crap.

This so-called "Evangelical" movement is just another artificial-meme - it does not actualy exist as anything other than a marketing-term to sell the tax-exempt for-profit mega-church INDUSTRY. Part of that sales-pitch is to promise POLITICAL POWER to disaffected Americans, feeling defensive about their "tribe's" ability to affect the political process in the face of massive corporate bribery.

The RNC currently exploits these frightened people because they want their money, and because it's a winning combination with their subset of corporate bribery (Petrochemical, Defense Contractors, Agribusiness, Manufacturing, Pharmaceuticals, Tobacco, Banking). So they're entirely willing to occasionally put on a show for the Evangelicals, and whore themselves out for a buck, even if it means betraying the Constitution, and our core beliefs as Americans (ie. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment). The insincere exploitation is obvious, because they show no compunction against killing, torture, and their own closeted sexual immorality.

The DLC wants in on this action. Right now, the DNC is at a disadvantage, funding-wise, because the industries that support them, the Media, Unions, etc. don't have the funding muscle compared to Petrochemical and Defense industries - ESPECIALLY when there's a war on, and especially when that war is in the Middle East (which boosts Petrochemical industry profits, as we have seen).

So anything the DLC can do to pull in some of that Evangelical money (and votes) is seen as good. Even if it means betraying the party's core principles.

A Pox on both their houses.
(actually, a Pox is too good for them).

Jeffrey:

Well doesn't that argue for a moderate, balanced outlook that can be encompassed by both Democratic and Republican ideologies?

If there are different church denominations with different interpretations of scripture, then surely there's room in the world for a strong liberal, Democratic evangelical movement, just as there apparently was for conservative Republicans.

Much of it is a distinction between the emphasis put on the Old Testament God of Laws vs the New Testament God of Love.

Southern synods go for the former, Northern the latter.

Bob

On the international-zealot scene, I guess we are not believing Ahmadinejad and the rest of the Islamo-fascists are happy with the Democrats' win, right?

Bob:

You never answered my question: How exactly can I have a "Jesus fixation" or make religious people look bad when I am not a Christian?

Jeffrey:

Drop it, Charlie.

Bob

Jeffry says, "...but, I have read the 'thing'"

Did not know Classic Comics was into doing the biblical "thing".

Jeffrey:

I think it's great the Iran is happy with the win. If I were them, I'd be happy, too.

The happier they are, the less backed into a corner they feel. The less backed into a corner they feel, the less over-the-top rhetoric we get from them.

Had Gore been president, it's much less likely that Ahmadinejad would've been elected to begin with -- because Gore never would've made a simpleminded "axis of evil" speech after 9/11.

Bob

On the international-zealot scene, I guess we are not believing Ahmadinejad and the rest of the Islamo-fascists are happy with the Democrats' win, right?

Why are you so quick to believe anything those assholes say? Don't you think if the GOP would have won last Tuesday, they would have said something similar? Their goal is to divide America, you moron, and you and the losers at LGF and elsewhere are playing right in to their hands.

Why do Republicans spread AL qaeda's propaganda free of charge? Only because they think they can milk it politically it seems.

It's amazing how timid and frightened the modern conservative movement has becomes. A bunch of rednecks in the desert go BOO, and Jonah Goldberg craps his pants and runs upstairs to lock himself in his room, all the while having no trouble handing Daddy Bush all his civil liberties.

Such cowards the Republicans have become.

Elevation:

Well, you're not quite correct. It was a wirestory in the AP. Ahmadinejad said that he was very glad to see the neocon ideology repudiated in the election -- and can anybody really blame him?

Bear in mind that Iran is not al Qaeda. Iran doesn't want perpetual warfare with the West, nor is it attempting to establish a Universal Caliphate.

As far as I know, there have been no al Qaeda comminques since the election.

Bob

I imagine the shuttle from K Street has been rerouted now. AH may be right for once. I wish I had purchased prostitute stock a week ago. Any stats regarding this election are rendered meaningless by the fact that we were running against against a Hitler touting the prospects for victory at Stalingrad. The political landscape in 08 will be so different from the one a week ago as to make all current maps obsolete.

Being a radical, Im more interested in what the democrats might actually do than I am in prolonging their stay.

And we have had to start raising prices, albeit very reluctantly, because of the vote yesterday in the House shutting down Anwar, raising CAFE standards dramatically, and handing over Iraq Oil, Ltd, Inc, etc. to al-Quada. They acted so quickly - We really, really wanted to keep prices, especially home heating oil for the elderly, at rock bottom prices. We were even willing to put our 4th and 5th houses on the market. But nooooooooooooo.

*waiting for tj's sock puppets to show up*

Bob

And the anti-semites crawl out of the woodwork. Who knew I was the root of all evil?

"Render unto Bush, what are Bush's, and unto God, whatever, if anything, is left over."
Rove 69:69

Believe it or not, I go entire political cycles without thing=kin "what's best for Israel?' because I do not live there. I live here. If Israel was foremost in my mind, I would relocate there and take up their causes.

87% of us voted for Democrats this election cycle and very few of those votes were driven by Israeli interests.

Do you even know any real jews, or are you just regurgitating the bullshit that you heard at the final KKK meeting in Hooterville before the election?

All I'm saying is that we need to change and monitor the way we do everything, in case we accidentally make a terrorist smile somewhere. Voting Democratic pleases the terrorists because I can't think of a reason it wouldn't. And I'm right.

"In the hood", takes an entirely different meaning in tj and Claire/Alice's neighborhood.

However, they have won many prizes for their "Best Cross Burning" at Christmas time.

Globe:

Besides which (picking up this strand from Jeffrey), I believe I heard some Israeli politicians bewailing the election because Democrats won't take their concerns about terrorism as seriously as the Bush noeocons ...

So if tj was just, you know, a voter concerned that Israel has a lot of undue influence in our government through AIPAC and other lobbying entities (a perfectly legitimate concern), s/he should be satisfied that the Dems won.

Instead s/he's -- surprise, surprise! -- pitching the usual conspiracy theories.

Gee, I wonder why? :)

Bob

tj,

You da Man!!!

tj:

Do you really think that third, fourth and fifth-generation Americans are really all that obsessed with ethnic loyalty?

Bob

Rahm wanted to be competitive in a mere 25 races. Howard Dean fought the corporate dems and we had candidates in all. So how again did Rahm pull a fast one?

You are deranged and unhinged and not to invoke Godwin too early, but Hitler would have absolutely adored you, all smashing in your crisply ironed Brown Shirt!

As if by clockwork ... here comes "Bob."

Ever occur to you that over 70% of Israelis are non-practicing and that there's a huge peace movement which is distorted by security politics in a proportional-representation multiparty parliament?

Ever consider the Peace Now movement -- or the rather large number of left-wing American Jews who are tremendously concerned for justice in Palestine?

Oh right. They're stealth Jews, like Russ Feingold.

You can't make this stuff up -- but you can predict the script :)

Bob

Kevin, you just DO NOT GET IT.

These stories about the Democrats winning bcs of christian votes are not there as fact or comment on the election. The Washington Post has never cared about accuracy or insight over the last six years; they aren't starting that today.
These stories are, to quote von Clausewitz, the continuation of politics by other means. The larger the extent you can get people to believe that Dems won because of the support of christians, the larger the chance you have of Dems refusing to do some decent thing or other because they are afraid that it will upset these same christians.

Yeah, someone went in for much needed menudo this morning and was given a huge helping of Swill On a Shingle instead - Rachael must have been on duty this morning.

Brown shirt would fit - Black shirts required higher intelligence and height requirements. He would have been a perfect candidate for the Night of the Long Knives though, when the Blacks turned on the Browns. I think that his SA means Sheer Asshole, though.

Actually, the ones who sear the white hoods are not the ones I fear. You won't take that p[roclamation step. You are the kind of coward who would rig my brakes while I slept. You are the one to be feared by all reasonable people, not just Jews.

You need to offer concrete examples, not just issue sweeping proclamations of broad malfeasance by Jews.

Maynard Handley:

No, I don't take such a conspiratorial view. I think it's great that more Christians support Democrats -- because we could leverage their energy and committment to push environmental protections, address global warming and energy independence, get some justice for poor and working people and begin to withdraw from Iraq.

There's that whole side of the Christian agenda which has been overlooked for the last two decades because of the polarizing sexual issue fights.

Evangelicals have an equally compelling mandate to push for social justice. They tried "compassionate conservativism" with Bush and the GOP and they got chumped.

I see nothing wrong with attempting to pick up that slack.

Bob

tj and Bob,

We have your room ready - Best in Bad Wiessee. On behalf of the Hanselbauer Hotel staff, we welcome you in advance. When your guests arrive, we will send them directly to your room.

It's kind of like seeing one cockroach in your apartment and then the next day, there are five of them ...

Bob

Just because the lunatic fringe is on the retreat does not mean I'm taking my eye off you mother fuckers for a second. I've seen this movie before, and I didn't care for the six million dead ending. A bit dark for my taste. I could have done without that whole war in europe that displaced my family and brought us here, too. But once here we promptly assimilated every bit as much as out Catholic and Baptist neighbors. My mother married a Catholic, and so did I. My kids graduated from a Catholic high scholl (Paul 3 knows which one) and one of them is a Catholic.

A whole lot of us have assimilated. I repeat my question...Do you know any real Jews? Many people who make the assumptions and proclamations you do have never met a Jew in their lives.

Maynard Handley, The Washington Post has never cared about accuracy or insight over the last six years; they aren't starting that today. These stories are, to quote von Clausewitz, the continuation of politics by other means. The larger the extent you can get people to believe that Dems won because of the support of christians, the larger the chance you have of Dems refusing to do some decent thing or other because they are afraid that it will upset these same christians.

That is exactly right, exactly how the DC media works.

Apologize in advance - Off thread.

The US Navy has announced that they attempt to remove the USS Intrepid, a WW11 era carrier, from the mud on the Jersey shore and tow the vessel across to a shipyard in NYC.

However, because of severe budget restraints, they have found it impossible to remove the USS Bushtantic from the mud in the Potomac. They will heavily mark the area as a hazard and consider it to be irrelevant.

Globe:

Of course they don't, Globe. They'd have to contend with people like yourself on a one-on-one human level.

And if they did -- their "ideas," such as they are, would never stand a chance.

Bob

tj: We are the poor saps who don't know you are a jew because of name changes...
Americans know the score... but when they see someone like Gibson dragged into a public crucifixion.... well, that tactic has been trotted out before as well.

hmm... so you are saying Mel Gibson is a Jew (Gibson is a common non-jewish name used by many jews)... and he's been crucified, which means ? He's Jesus?

Tip for ya, TJ, trolling is more effective when your story isn't so damn confused.

JT:

No, even anti-semitic trolls know that Gibson's a rather vociferous Catholic (whose father is a Holocaust-denier, besides).

Though the reasoning is entirely specious, the metaphor is straightforward.

Bob

thomsen:

You're lying.

You've never had an honest conversation with a Jewish person in your life.

Bob

You are a cancer on our society, thomsen and I'm going to make it a point to say a prayer for you at Temple. I rarely attend but you have inspired me to do so this evening.

Damn, a whole bunch of Moyels must have really screwed up. Never heard so many starting to sound like Michael Savage. Maybe, theyre still in the closet as well.

I mean, one day, you start with perhaps 4 and 7/8s and end up with two and a quarter, only if you think of Ann Coulter or Rock Hudson.

No wonder, so many of these cretins are pissed.

Or any other conversation. Don't pick at the barnacles on the troll. They like their barnacles because they feel protected. Picking at them only justifies sticking on more barnacles.

It's all about anxiety and social conservative personality disorder and an impression there is injustice in their failed authoritarianism.

Five will get you ten, when you need a thoracic surgeon, you look for a Shapiro; and what did Edith say when Archie needed an attorney? "Get him a Rabinowitz."

Global,

Yeah, but they all had Irving Dipschitz as their Moyel.

Good one! You know you can get circumcisions on the internet now don't you?

Yep. it's called eMoyel.

By the way - we get credit for most of the history of comedy in America. Without us, you guys would be a droll mirthless bunch. And if I thought you ever got out of your mother's basements you might make me uneasy.

Dipschitz, uh, so that was the name of the guy.

Anybody out there know anyone who does extensions? Except for Ron Jeremy, of course.

Globe:

Remember that SNL parody of the Lincoln Town Car ad, with the moyel in the back seat performing his duty without a slip because the ride was so smooth?

That was because the real ad used an extremely semitic-looing diamond-cutter ...

The one good thing about these trolls is that they have a very short half-life. Once they drop their kiddies off at the pool, they never stick around to try to defend their arguments the way Watcher and slim did.

And a big Mazel Tov for *that*.

Bob

Global,

Comedy,means nothing to these creeps - Remember, their uncles and fellow brethren took no notice of Iron Crosses from World War1 come gassing time.

You can not be a bi-partisan with the Devil. No quarter asked, no quarter given.

Globe,

Jews invented the pie fight? Now it's all becoming clear!

My Auntie Lisbet is 86 years old and she still today has a series of numbers tattooed on her forearm. She has given testimony to the International Holocaust Museum.

I do not deny the Russian pogroms and their inherent atrocities. Do not deny what happened to us. All genocides are heinous, and none are justified in history.

cld - not to mention the seltzer spritz!!!

One of my kids has the best commercial satires DVD from SNL. I just saw that the other day, Bob. It's still just as funny as it was back then.

And if you boil the chicken too much it turns into a rubber chicken?

cid,

When Billy Wilder and many others left Germany, the intelligence level dropped tremendously, their scientific community was stripped, tailors became lousy and jokes were left to bananna peel slip and falls.

Our nation and society became the better for their coming to this land.

"So how's your wife?"

"Compared to what?"

--Henny Youngman

Bob

Those who can, do.

Those who can't, teach.

Those who can't teach, teach gym.

--Woody Allen

Bob

TheThirdPaul:

Amen to that.

Bob

Nice to see the trools depart - They all must be attending Veterans Day Parades across the land.

One lone Jewish/feminist/scientist stands her ground and they run scurrying back into the woodwork like the vermin they are.

Well truthfully, Globe, you *did* have a little assist :)

Bob

Yes I did. I'd take you guys in a foxhole any day.

3rdPaul,

Not to mention Ernst Lubitsch, who's Shop Around the Corner was on yesterday.

Hey, a 5% shift is HUGE. Just because it's spread out among many if not all sectors doesn't make it any less noteworthy in any given sector.

Oh, and how sweet it is to see American Hawk's wailing, sans balls! Oh wait, he was always devoid of courage, wasn't he. I guess now he's just lost his nice puffed-up buffer zone.

Dang it all - Late to the party again - Damn you DeLay, you gave me the correct web site, but the wrong people to go after.

Globe:

I'm a lefty for a lotta reasons -- but nothing gets me quite as righteously pissed off as bigotry, whether racial, religious, sexual or ethnic.

If we are not all self-evidently created equal, then the entire thing falls apart.

Bob

I think it's pretty obvious that the one thing I don't tolerate is intolerance.

The creepiest thing in history?

Mickey Mouse gas mask for children,

http://www.gasmasklexikon.com/Page/USA-Mil-Mikey.htm

Global,

One other film you might like is "Ball of Fire" (1941) - Howard Hawks, directed with a Charles Barlett and Billy Wilder script - Oskar Homulka and SZ Slakal, who had both fled the Nazis are in it - I thought, incorrectly, that Walter Slezak was also, but no - However, he was an escapee.
This film was remade by Hawks and Wilder as "A Song is Born" (1947) with Danny Kaye - funny also, but the original with Barabra Stanwick as SugarPuss O'Shea and Dana Andrews as the bad guy is better.

Kevin,
You are overstating your case. The fact is that the religious vote did swing disproportionately toward the Democrats this year. The fairest way to show this is to compare votes for the House in different off-year elections. Taking those exit pollees who said they attend religious services once a week or more, in 1992, they voted Republican by a margin of 8 percentage points (54-46). In 2002, the differential was 20 points (60-40). (This held in 2004.) Last Tuesday, the gap slipped to 12 percentage points (56-44). That's three percentage points higher than the overall voting shift of five percentage points. Moreover, you minimize the significance of the frequent attenders' shift by comparing this group with the voting population as a whole--because, at 45 percent of the voting population, you're substantially watering down the comparison with the rest of the population--i.e. you're comparing the frequent attenders with the less frequent attenders PLUS the frequent attenders. In fact, then, the frequent attenders shifted toward the Democrats by more than twice as much as the less frequent attenders. In other words, there really is something to Cooperman's story.

Okay, cld, that just creeped me right the fuck out.

Paul - I'll check out that movie over the semester break. I used all my free-time chits campaigning.

sparko: The GOP needs to change its symbol from the elephant to the ostrich.

i think leno suggested a moth...

since there are so many in the closet...

Good post, Mark Silk.

"All very interesting Kevin, but if Bob Casey had been Pro-choice, what then?"

That's something I've wondering, given the utter stomping Santorum got.

"It's kind of like seeing one cockroach in your apartment and then the next day, there are five of them ..."

Bob, that's entirely uncalled for, insulting cockroaches that way.

quit analyzing.
this was an anti-bush vote. people were motivated by their repulsion at the cult of republicanism to go out and vote democratr even if they had to hold their noses. that's it. period.
move on.

TJ makes me think of a line from "Good Morning Vietnam."

Then again, his problems are much deeper than that.

However these gains were off-set by left-handed unicyclists with even-numbered addresses whose republican preference was a stark contrast to 1956.

I think BroD gave the best and most reliable analysis thus far.

Looking back is not where we win the 2008 election, people. Looking forward is the answer.

Conservatives are the ones mired in the past. We are supposed to be about the future, aren't we? So back on message. We aren't going to replay the '06 elections. We are, however, going to have to face the electorate again in another general in two years. So concentrate on that one, okay?

OFF-TOPIC

I'd like to thank Bob for his kind words defending me recently. Among other things he said he was interested in my position on immigration, and I'd like to point all intelligent liberals to look at former Dem Congressmen Brad Carson's editorial on this topic.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/05/democrats_must_buck_the_overcl.html

I think it's pretty obvious that the one thing I don't tolerate is intolerance.

Typical liberal craziness...

Another comment about turnout. I have heard from a friend who is a member, that MoveOn had a very strong GOTV effort, unlike past elections. Is there any other evidence that the Democrats had an unusually strong GOTV effort? It was widely said that they would, but I haven't read about it since.

rmck1: As far as I know, there have been no al Qaeda comminques since the election.

I have read some from al Qaeda spokesmen in Iraq. Like Hamas, they called for renewed vigor in attacks against Europe, Israel, and the U.S. (against U.S. troops in Iraq and against continental U.S.) Basically the same old stuff, but claiming that the election proves that they have defeated the U.S. Conspicuously silent has been Osama bin Laden. I don't know if you want links; you can find the quotes by surfing the web.

As for your assertion that Iran acts as it does because it is backed into a corner, there is enough counterevidence. Their claim is that they are aiming to eradicate Israel, and they have been supporting international terrorists since they came to power. they may feel backed into a corner, or they may feel that the Bush administration is hampering their efforts to expand their power.

Their biggest threat is not military action by the U.S., but a stable, prosperous democracy in Iraq.

The fact that the Iranian government is happy that the Republicans lost, is little utility to us in evaluating the outcome. On that, I agree with you.

I think that Democrats who voted for the war, like Feinstein and Waxman, are going to push softly on withdrawal of troops from Iraq; if troops are pulled out too rapidly, no Congressional authorization of force will be worth anything in the future: in line with such rhetoric as Kerry's, such a resolution would be taken by any enemy as an empty bluff. Democrats have been calling for "conmpetence" in the war in Iraq; now that they are in charge, they can enforce their idea of competence and show that they were not engaging in empty rhetoric.

Thank you Mark Silk.

The reason churchgoers are such an important group to evaluate is that religious fervor can exert the toughest stranglehold on reason.

When the Democrats begin to break through it is a very good sign.

"There can be no effective control of corporations while their political activity remains."
- Theodore Roosevelt

Mark Silk on November 11, 2006 at 5:00 PM

good post. both informative and on point.

Enough about exit polls and examining chicken entrails to discern why people voted the way they did. Good God, for boring. Z-z-z-zzzzzz

minion:

Don't mention it. I calls 'em like I sees 'em. They'll be plenty of time to consider immigration in the new congress -- and I do think the Dems should pass something substantive with Bush. There's a lot of populist tendencies in the new freshmen, so it may be tougher sledding in the House even though it's no longer the Age of Tancredo.

MatthewRMarler:

Well, I'm going to have to push back pretty vigorosly on your mischaracterizations of Iran, which I believe are the product of little more than ideological distortion. Let's take some of your misconceptions one-by-one.

1) Iran doesn't intend to annihilate Israel. That quote was taken wildly out of context (trex can provide you the quote in proper context; he's done that many times). What Ahamadinejad said is that Israel may well be "destroyed" in the future -- but by demographic pressures, both from within the Occupied Territories and from within Israel herself, from the much higher Arab birth rate. Plus, he believe Israel would cease to exist as a state if the people it expelled were given a vote on it. Sure -- it's an extreme position from a Western POV. Israel is a done deal. But it's a damn slight different than calling explicitly for an eventual nuclear attack.

2) Iran supports Shi'ite resistance groups in local conflicts (mostly with Israel), not al Qaeda-style freelance international terrorism. This is a key distinction to keep in mind. How many suicide bombers can you name who've attacked Western (non-Israeli) targets who've been Shi'ite? I can't think of one, save for the mother of them all -- the Marine barracks attack in Lebanon that inaugurated suicide bombing as a military tactic. But since then, it's been Sunni Salafist extremists who prosecute that form of war. Sunni Palestinian suicide bombers against Israel? Notorious. Any suicide attacks by Shi'ite Hezbollah against Israel in Lebanon in the recent war? IIRC, none at all.

It is takfiri Salafist (Sunni) extremist ideology that menaces the world. Shi'ite extremism is a different animal entirely -- and much more amenable to control by religious hierarchies. Sunni Imams, conversely, are freelancers. That's why it can legitimate an apostate group like al Qaeda.

3) It is in the interest of *no* state to have a failed state on its border. This is more silly neocon ideology. Iran's economy is going quite well -- they make their own automobiles -- so the idea of an Iraqi "example" threatening them with prosperity is just more "they hate us for our freedoms" ideological frogwash. Iran has an interest in the well-being of its Shi'ite co-religionists in Iraq -- but the relationship will also have limits, because of memories of the brutal Iran/Iraq war. While both Shia, Persians are not Arabs.

4) The Realists are taking over Iraq policy now. Robert Gates and some of the people around James Baker believe that there's no way to solve the Iraq situation without bringing Iran (and Syria) to the table. I think everybody believes this is progress. Bush's insistence on isolating Iran was stone-idiocy. Make Iran a partner in the development and security of Iraq, and there are many problems and potential problems you can begin to address -- such as the funding and training of Shi'ite militias inside Iraq.

If I were Ahmadinejad, I would have welcomed this election, too. This is not "our enemies cheering at defeat." This is just a collective sigh of relief that the neocon ascendency has come to an end, and diplomacy and bargaining can begin once again.

Because truly -- there's simply no other feasable alternative. The pure military solution has already been exhaustively tried.

Bob

Bob

to an unreconstructed neocon like myself, the most exasperating thing about this war is that the pure military solution has not been tried. If we had tried and failed, I would be willing to throw in the towel...

As to your second point to MRM - how does the bombing of a Jewish Cultural Center in Buenos Aires fit in with your reasonable adversaries premise?

Joe Bob Briggs on November 11, 2006 at 9:25 PM:

Good God, for boring. Z-z-z-zzzzzz

Hey, it's not like there's a war going on or something...

fwiw: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4327384.html

rmck1: Iran supports Shi'ite resistance groups in local conflicts (mostly with Israel), not al Qaeda-style freelance international terrorism.

Other reports say that Iran provides refuge for al Qaeda on the run, and supports terrorists organizations with cash. Also, what you wrote there does not dispute my claim that Iran initiates violence.

What you called a "mischaracterization" is just the fact that I listed other facts that you omitted. You have listed some facts that I omitted, which is equally a "mischaracterization".

Militant Islam is on the march in numerous parts of the world, and is not merely passively responding to threats against Muslims (though that also happens), and is not confined to Wahabists and Salafists (who may be most prominent.) Iran is one of the initiators. That the Iranian leadership fears it may be removed from power, or have its military power compromised, is also true. They have announced their intention to destroy Israel, and that intention is independent of any particular Israeli policy or action; the wealthiest and freest Arabs are those living in Israel, and Iran aims to replace that governance with a government more like Syria's. It is ironic that the Shi'ite Iranians are collaborating with the nominally secular Baathists, but such ironies are hardly rare.

Reportedly, the government of Syria is also happy with the election.

The Alawite [sp?] minority that runs the Baath in Syria are an offshoot of the Shia, and constitute about 10% of the population. They were installed originally as puppets of the French when they ran the Levant. I agree they are nominally secular.

One of the many points we neocons try to make is that suicide terror, like other terror, is endemic to the region and not particular bad organizations. Bob argues that suicide terror started with the Marine barracks. I would argue that the first "suicide" mission of the modern era was carried out by Sirhan Sirhan, a Palestinian Christian.

They have announced their intention to destroy Israel

No they haven't.

Other reports say that Iran provides refuge for al Qaeda on the run

Unless you have a cite from a credible source, those "reports" are actually "allegations." Donald Rumsfeld saying it's so doesn't hold any water, for reasons too numerous and obvious to enumerate.

Reportedly, the government of Syria is also happy with the election.

You're a dork.

Democrats have been calling for "conmpetence" in the war in Iraq; now that they are in charge, they can enforce their idea of competence and show that they were not engaging in empty rhetoric.

The Democrats are not "in charge" of the war effort. Read the Constitution lately? You see, it's an oooooold document, fashioned by our forefathers to describe the different branches of government, and it's divided up into articles and sections....

[Iran's] biggest threat is not military action by the U.S., but a stable, prosperous democracy in Iraq.

Quite the opposite, the Iranians fear that the chaos from an Iraq fractured along religious and ethnic lines could spill over into their country.

Is there nothing that you do not have entirely backwards?

TIME: You have been quoted as saying Israel should be wiped off the map. Was that merely rhetoric, or do you mean it?

Ahmadinejad: People in the world are free to think the way they wish. We do not insist they should change their views.

Thereafter he segues into talking about the Palestinians, but he doesn't really say he doesn't mean it. 'Everybody's entitled to their own opinion' is what he says.

cld:

How can you "segue into talking about the Palestinians" without implicitly talking about the state of Israel? You think the two things are divorced?

Bob

si, liberales

¡Atención de la paga a mí!
No llame por favor a patrulla de frontera

Él ha funcionado pollos y cabras excesivos con su coche.

Él es una amenaza a la sociedad.

su tobillo que supervisa el dispositivo.

rmck1 bitch persona, si!

bob,

I don't think the two things are divorced, I don't think the Palestinians are Israelis.

He surely didn't mean to blow up the Palestinians along with them.

This is Babelfish's translation of the Spanish above,

if, liberal Attention of the payment to me! It does not call please to border patrol It has worked excessive chickens and goats with his car. It is a threat to the society. its ankle that supervises the device. rmck1 bitch person, if!

Thanks, cld. It's all much clearer now.

He surely didn't mean to blow up the Palestinians along with them.

He never says "bomb" or "blow up." He simply describes the government of Israel as one more bad government among many that needs to be deposed, and says that like other bad governments that were once thought to be invincible it too will be deposed one day.

However, our nation stood firm, and by now we have, for 27 years, been living without a government dependent on America. Imam [Khomeni] said: 'The rule of the East [U.S.S.R.] and of the West [U.S.] should be ended.' But the weak people who saw only the tiny world near them did not believe it. Nobody believed that we would one day witness the collapse of the Eastern Imperialism [i.e. the U.S.S.R], and said it was an iron regime. But in our short lifetime we have witnessed how this regime collapsed in such a way that we must look for it in libraries, and we can find no literature about it. Imam [Khomeini] said that Saddam [Hussein] must go, and that he would be humiliated in a way that was unprecedented. And what do you see today? A man who, 10 years ago, spoke as proudly as if he would live for eternity is today chained by the feet, and is now being tried in his own country [[[...]]] Imam [Khomeini] said: 'This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.'

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

Ignore my housekeeper Minerva. She is spreading lies about me on a stolen laptop.

I see a lot of chin stroking and a great deal of fretting about Islam. I note that someone is throwing around terms that they do not understand.

To wit, please read this from Global Security dot Organization:

In the United States, Salafism has been equated by some with radicalism and terrorism in some newspaper articles, books, and public discourse. However, “Salafism” is not inherently synonymous with violence, terrorism, or radicalism. Many Salafis throughout the world are doctrinally rigid, but peaceful.

It is important to distinguish between the following groups, thought of (perhaps) as concentric circles: