You're missing an important point, Kevin. Murtha has pretty much uniformly backed Pelosi, while Hoyer has constantly second-guessed her. We have a history of party disunity and this is a really, really bad time to indulge in ego-driven skirmishes. Apart from any other factor, Murtha is a better choice because we need to present a united front right now to get anything done.

If the Democrats can even get anything like a handle on Iraq, we can deal with all that later. The future of the Democratic Party and any hope of a more liberal agenda rests on this one thing.

I think Murtha presents fewer problems down the road. Hoyer comes off as an advance man for Hillary.

At least a draft is consistent with our professed aims.

Hello? It better be Murtha.

No one took more of a risk than Murtha. No one stood up to the Republican onslaught than Murtha. No one is more right on the biggest issue facing this country--Iraq--than Murtha.

Hell, the guy ought to be on the short list for Vice-President.

The issue these numbers don't get at is the truly important one: how good and willing are each of the contenders at building coalitions and consensus, even if it means their own personal views may not win in the outcome?

Can we have a third choice?

He's not exactly a progressive dream candidate.

It's OK, really... this congress isn't really a prgressive's dream congress... It's been a long time since any progressive agenda has been taken seriously in our legislative halls, and it's going to take baby steps before we can return to progress.

But, these moves are very brilliant politcally--it solidly establishes to the American people that the Democratic party is the party of the center, and the party of the middle class average jane/joe. Compare and contrast our leaders to those from the opposition (who will probably move further to the extreme right).

Since the center shares about 60% of progressive values and sentiment to some degree (pro-environment, pro-worker, pro-health care, pro-senior, anti-multinational corporation, anti-iraq war, anti-unitary executive, etc.) A lot can still be done to return our country back from the brink of fascism.

Bottom line is that republicans have been shifting the goalpaosts to the right for a long time. It looks like we'll finally be able to return them to their rightful place once and for all!

Thanks,

Mike

Are there any ABSCAM videos of Hoyer?

Perhaps I was wrong about Net Neutrality being the first casualty/betrayal of our new conservative Democratic Congress. The draft, increased troop levels in Iraq, and increasing the defense budget may happen first.

Perhaps Hoyer and Murtha can find a way to reduce bankruptcy protection further as a gift to the American people for voting out the Republican bums.

I would choose Murtha too.

What the Democratic caucus needs, more than consistency, is guts. Murtha has 'em, so he's the guy.

Anyone with 0% from NARAL is O.K. in my book.

I second Pale Rider's nomination of Murtha for Vice-President (with McCain at the top of the ticket). How's that for bi-partisan?

I have my doubts about the widsdom of increasing troop levels in Iraq but a draft with no expemptions for college or other middle-class privleges is an absolute necessity. If the great American middle-class had more of their children in the fight they wouldn't be so eager to march 'em off to wars of choice.

Jeffery:

How are you spelling that new handle, Chuckles? Why didn't you stick with Chuck for more than a week, hmmm, Chuckles?

Kevin,

The K street thing is everything. Hoyer wants to take the Dems down the same sleazy path that DeLay took the Republicans. That's the LAST thing we need.

Murtha will be more loyal to Nancy (who has endorsed him). Hoyer will be looking for ways to undermine her so he can have her job. After his swift-boating, I think you will find Murtha much less likely to play ball with Republicans as he once did. He learned his lesson the hard way, but he surely learned it.

I would encourage everyone here represented by a Democrat in the House to contact their Rep. and ask him or her to respect Pelosi's wishes and support John Murtha.

Murtha helps build the new Democratic brand: Strong On Defense, Now With Added Competence!

He's not exactly a progressive dream candidate.

No, but he had the guts to say what needed saying at a time when he had to know he'd get slaughtered. Right now, the Dems need unity and stiff spines. I don't see how passing over Murtha accomplishes either.

I thought the big progressive meme of the election was that we were looking for people who were committed to the party and its vision despite "conservatism" (which is currently a nonce term anyway), and we were willing to forego all the ideological litmus test bullshit?

What you're talking about (and right to criticize) is when DLC types start looking for conservative Democrats *simply because* they're conservative. Putting the cart before the horse is transparently manipulative and voters see through that.

The litmus test should be for *principled* leaders, and if they happen to be on the right side of the party, so be it. Murtha falls solidly into the category of people like Dean and Feingold, who were willing to stand up for their positions because they were right, not tilting in the political winds.

How are you spelling that new handle, Chuckles?

Pale, don't bother. Really, just ignore him and maybe he'll find another hobby.

In fact, if I feel motivated, I think a greasemonkey script to filter out the whole universe of Charlie personalities would be a welcome addition to my blog browsing experience.

Murtha, Murtha, Murtha!

Following on shortstop's point, Murtha will owe his position to Nancy Pelosi, while Hoyer is aligned with Rahm Emmanuel. I much prefer Murtha.

Can we have a candidate who isn't on TPM Muckrakers Favorite Dems list?

Can we have a third choice?
Posted by: Hedley Lamarr on November 13, 2006 at 1:02 PM | PERMALINK

Why do you hate America?

Anyone with 0% from NARAL is O.K. in my book.
Posted by: Jeffery on November 13, 2006 at 1:15 PM | PERMALINK

I don't recall anybody asking you your opinion.

At least not since November 7th when we found that your opinion is irrelevant. Hey - if you don't like abortion, Jeffererererey, don't get one.

Which Nathan was that?

Legal Malpractice Nathan or do we have another Nathan?

Please, Nathan, if you're out there--start offering legal advice to the Republican Party.

Pleeeeeeese!

These guys are running for majority leader, not for party spokesman on the War in Iraq (a job Murtha already holds).

The key question is who will do a better job maintaining discipline in the caucus and ensuring the business of the House gets done. This will inevitably require the person to sideline his own views. My guess is Hoyer probably has the inside track here, but who knows? And it can be a two-fer: Murtha will continue to be the key guy on Iraq, whether he beats Hoyer or not.

And there's no tight ideological test for leadership. If you want a good example of a leader who is anti-abortion and generally pro-gun, take a look at Harry Reid.

Murtha is hawkish only by the obscenely liberal standards of the democratic party, who hounded a patriot like Remsfeld from office.

Republicans outsource speech writing to India,

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/US_senator_outsources_speech_to_India/articleshow/421082.cms

Hoyer's not exactly a progressive superstar either, not in the top100 in the House.

It's not like he's Tammy Baldwin exactly and Murtha brings a lot of credibility on defesnse issues

My grandfather, a FDR Democrat who faced war and depression, would always say, 'The Democrats are for the working man and the Republicans are for the rich.' Murtha is an old-style Democrat and that's why he has been reelected in a tough coal-mining region. If the party sticks with these kind of guys it will stay in power.

Neither's a great choice, but I'd rather have Murtha on talk shows, and I don't think his social conservatism will have many opportunities for expression over the next two years. Hoyer is a bagman, and generally that's a type that needs to be behind the scenes.

The salient question here isn't whether Murtha is a good representative for all democrats all the time. The question is whether he's a good representative for the democrats that won November 7th 2006. The platform that Pelosi put forward talked about, The Republican Culture of Corruption, (ie. oversight), Immigration Reform, Minimum Wage, Health Care (Medicare part D), and the War/Security.

What are his positions on these issues?

Abortion is not one of the issues we want to talk about right now. If we change the subject to Murtha's stance on abortion, then we play into the hands of the rightwing propagandists.

The agenda was set by Pelosi. For the immediate future, these are the only issues that matter. Let's focus here.

Hoyer/Boehner what's the difference? They are both owned lock, stock and barrel by K-Street.

Democrats were elected to drain the swamp and clean up the mess. Hoyer is the last guy for that job.

...only by the obscenely liberal standards of the democratic party, who hounded a patriot like Remsfeld from office.

They did?!?

Well done, obscene liberals!

There is no reason for a draft if we are leaving Iraq. We needed a draft four years ago.

There is a reason for a draft if we are staying in Iraq and planning on going to Iran. We do not need a draft.

Iraq is going to be the decisive issue over the next two years.

The media will go to McCain for the GOP, giving Bush cover for whatever he does.

We need someone who has credibility who can take him on. Pelosi and Hoyer can't. Murtha can.

I vote Murtha.

Help. Is that real Al or fake Al? I honestly can't tell the difference.

As for those wishing for a third candidate: there isn't one, so you have to choose between the two. As was pointed out up thread, it is party a choice between who's power you want to increase: Nancy's or Rahm's. For me that's an EXTREMELY easy choice.

One thing Rahm is really good at is self-promotion, however. Anyone who can sell the idea that the man who spent $4 million (inlcuding the primary) to lose IL-6 is the "genius" who won us the election single-handedly, when 13 out of his original 22 "red-to-blue" candidates LOST and our gains in the House were completely in line with our gains elsewhere (Senate, Governors, State Legislatures) deserves some kind of medal! (For chutzpah, if nothing else.)

Can we have a candidate who isn't on TPM Muckrakers Favorite Dems list?

I totally agree. It really makes a lot of progressives who have busted their asses for last several years look like chumps when the new crowd is guilty of some of the same offenses as the old crowd.

Another advantage for Murtha is that he can credibly complement Pelosi's 'Who is your mommy?' with his own 'Who is your daddy?' to shut up the Republican idiots.

John Murtha has national name-recognition, and especially after events of the last year, rank-and-file-military name-recognition. That last thing is paramount. He carries much more weight on the election's prevailing issue, than possibly any other Democrat in the House. Unlessyou want the Republicans back in power soon, the Dems need to consolidate their gains, and Murtha helps politically with the military and conservative vote. This is a centrist Democratic Party, not a progressive one. How about the Dems put it all together for once? How about the Dems consolidate their power across the board, and educate on the issues to get the issue polls swinging their way, BEFORE enacting progressive items in advance of the beliefs of the U.S. electorate? Nancy Pelosi demonstrates she knows what's she's doing.

You know, I was just thinking that having Hoyer and Murtha fighting it out for Majority leader is probably good, because it will generate press coverage. And coverage about how middle of the road they are, which will counter the Nancy "Baby Killing Bathouse Loving San Francisco Liberal" Pelosi coverage. And if people can see Pelosi working with these more conservative men to do things they like, that makes a very good impression, don't you think?

As long as it doesn't leave any lasting wounds, anyway.

If the great American middle-class had more of their children in the fight they wouldn't be so eager to march 'em off to wars of choice.

Those with "skin in the game" tend to behave a little differently and react a little more slowly.

As for my position on this, I want Murtha because the war is the issue facing us as a nation right now.

Murtha as Majority Leader and Skelton as HASC chairman and we might make some progress in freeing ourselves from this morass.

I much prefer Murtha.

Posted by: Nathan on November 13, 2006 at 1:25 PM | PERMALINK

Now that's a drawback.

O.K., so we all decided on Murtha then?

That wasn't Insane Pretend Lawyer Who Can't Admit His Many Mistakes Nathan.

GC: Murtha as Majority Leader and Skelton as HASC chairman and we might make some progress in freeing ourselves from this morass.

Like the lineup, Globe.

If you haven't heard, Poppy Bush and his posse are coming to rescue Junior with a little help from the Iraqis.

I could feel good about Murtha if he would openly renounce earmarking and commit to not steering tax dollars to friends and family as he has in the past.

"Caesar's wife, must be above suspicion."

Otherwise, he is just another part of the problem.

Thanks Apollo. I missed you, by the way. Glad to have you back.

Anyone who wants to get a good chuckle at aWol's expense, check this out.

Hmmmmm, does that mean that all of us lefty types who support Murtha are spurning ideological dogmatism and wouldn't that put the lie to the DLC's lefty/centrist dichotomy.

Open-minded Liberals. Whodathunkit?

If you go visit Hill Country Gal, follow the link therein to the funniest Rummy montage video ever. Where else you gonna see a SecDef twist a fatty during a press conference?

GC: Anyone who wants to get a good chuckle at aWol's expense...

LMAO! Kinda what I thought when I read the Newsweek piece. Thanks, Globe. LOL!

Hill Country gal doesn't pull any punches. I need to get around to blogrolling her...

It really makes a lot of progressives who have busted their asses for last several years look like chumps

Become used to it.

BTW, Globe. What is your blog URL?

No, just one I visit. Here is mine.

Hostile:

There is no reason for a draft if we are leaving Iraq. We needed a draft four years ago.

If you can promise me no more Excellent Adventures, I'll agree we don't need a draft. Otherwise, I have to respectfully disagree, because four years ago you and I might have agreed we don't need one.

That wasn't Insane Pretend Lawyer Who Can't Admit His Many Mistakes Nathan

Ah, then I stand corrected.

And Charlie: Piss off, would you? Thanks in advance.

Sorry, I'm this Nathan.

Sometimes I post with my last name and some times without. It hasn't been a problem, but apparently someone has been besmirching my good (first)name.

Hopefully, liberals don't consider my support a drawback.

No thanks, Gregory.

Hoyer or Murtha.

The racist or the coward.

What a wonderful party to have in power. Get ready to watch the corruption of the Democratic party rise to the surface. Money follows power.

White House 2008 -- here we come!

Orwell, I fucking dare you to call Murtha a coward to his face, you feckless jackass.

Hell, I would dare you to call him a coward to my face and I'm a 5'4" female who goes all of a buck thirty.

By the way, asshat, who the fuck could the Dems put forth that you wouldn't fingd objectionable?

That's what I thought.

Dismissed.

I would call him a cut and run coward to his face because he dares to insult and falsly accuse Marines of war crimes. Murtha is a disgrace.

I say global bring him on.

And I would say to your face he is a coward.

And I would lay you out.

No thanks, Gregory.
Posted by: Jeffery on November 13, 2006 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK

Su nombre, por favor? Dígame la verdad~!

Esta bitchas muchacho, esta bitchas!

Si consigo mis manos en usted sacaré su cuello como un pollo y canto una canción feliz!

Usted apesta como un tocador! Usted apesta como un tocador!

By the way - He all ready got called a "cut-n-Run" man by a woman in congress. And what did he do then? He had all of his friends try to make her feel bad.

oh what a brave man.

I was looking over the letter sent to Hoyer from Dems pledging their support of him; Waxman, Taucher, Barney Frank, Ike Skelton etc. It's remarkable. He spans the whole range from House Progressive Caucus-ites, to New Democrats, to Blue Dogs. This leads me to believe that their must me some really positive qualities to Hoyer that those on the outside looking in, can't really see.

As far as I can tell, the only people supporting Murtha are those within Pelosi's immediate loyalist camp like George Miller.

Violent liberals, I love it!

If only you would have this much fight when it comes to supporting a military mission or destroying the terrorist enemies in Iraq.

Awesome! Global you sound like a tazmanian devil who could take out a whole group of terrorists. Go for it girl.

"I wouldn't leap into bed with Murtha too quickly just because he took on Bush over Iraq. He's not exactly a progressive dream candidate."

I think that is the point. Who will take on Bush and the other Republicans? Taking them on is how we win and can even think about the other important issues. Think about Harry Reid - not liberal, but a fighter. Paul Hackett, not very liberal even on Iraq, but he took on Bush. And so did Murtha.

Right now, that is enough for me.

Murtha: once a marine and now a softy.

Oh how the mighty have fallen.

Guess I will have to hope for the grand wizard Hoyer to be majority leader.

Every decision to pull out troops which will lead to deaths of any soldiers are now the responsibility of the Democratic party.

Welcome to the blame game.

By the way - occupiers do not have the cut and run option open to them, and that that term was bandied about so belies the ignorance of the warmongers on all things military.

Cut and run is only an option when a pitched battle is going in the favore of the other guy, and falling back to regroup is the only hope of survival.

Occupiers simply leave. And they always do, eventually. Whether it is the Prince steaming out of the harbor in the royal yacht, or the Brits limping out of Iraq after 40 years, with the Army broken and the treasury broke; occupiers always leave. Period.

When non-military people trow around such tough talk, they betray themselves as the real cowards. you don't mind having other people die for a criminal administrations foolish blunder, but your skin isn't in the game, and if it ever had been, yuou would not be so thuggishly bloodthirsty.

I would call him a cut and run coward to his face because he dares to insult and falsly accuse Marines of war crimes. Murtha is a disgrace.

Murtha wasn't the only one to talk about those Marines. (Who, um, actually did the crime and are going to be punished for it). So did Representative Kline (R) of Minnesota. And the fact that Kline did exactly what Murtha did forced Powerline's John Hinderaker to back off like the little bitch that he is. Are you a little bitch, too? Because I seriously doubt a scrub like you can back up any Internet 'tough guy' boast.

And I would say to your face he is a coward.

Right, because you wouldn't dare say it to HIS face, wouldya? No, of course not. Something about a moral and physical coward like yourself being confronted with a human being always causes you guys to run and hide and never follow through on what you promise to do.

It's all bluster, isn't it? You got nothing to back it up with and you know it.

The surest sign of a coward--boasting about what you would do when we all know you'd shit your pants in real life if anyone gave you the ass kicking you deserve.

Orwell - freeper troll.

Recipe:

Prepare with onions and garlic. Boil in lead. Season to taste. Serve ice cold on a slab with a nice garland of bitch.

And if Global were herself in the game instead of kicking about brainless ideas like "we are occupiers" she would understand how long we were in Germany and how we still have military posts in Japan.

After victory comes peace. What happen to Vietnam? Korea? We left too soon. History gives us lessons that you, Global, are forgetting.

And loyalty is important, that is where Murtha is a coward. He makes accusations and beats the drum of retreat before victory is won. We aren't retreating because we are getting beat; we are leaving because some Americans do not have the stomach to kill even the guilty people.

Given the current socio-economic climate in the US, I'd argue that support for a draft *is* a progressive issue.

I would call him a cut and run coward to his face...

Of course, you would and that would validate why Americans kicked Repubs out on their ass for being such certifiable asshats.

...because he dares to insult and falsly accuse Marines of war crimes. Murtha is a disgrace.

Prove it, you Malkin eunuch. You wouldn't know a war crime if it greeted you as Donald Rumsfeld in a grim reaper costume. But I'll show you your ass nonetheless. MSNBC:

Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps' own evidence appears to show Murtha is right.

I say global bring him on.

Why, you would piss your pants, Orwell.

And I would say to your face he is a coward.

See, you're just stupid and mean.

Pissypants Orwell shows us why Repubs lost. Culture of corruption and partisan lies. America is sick of you losers.

I think I know a little something about Germany. We were at Rhine Mein for two years.

I have earned my right to say any fucking thing to any war-mongering chickenhawk like you that i damned well please.

It has been said that it was easier to convince the entire city of Athens of the need to launch a war than it was to convince a single Spartan. That is because the Spartans were professional warriors. They each and every one understood the consequences of warfare.

Remember that the biggest upset of a Republican incumbent in the land was delivered by two Army bases. You going to walk into the headquarters of the Big Red 1

Guess i didn't close the tag properly.

Would you walk into the headquarters of the Big Red 1 and call them cowards?

I would pay to see that.

History gives us lessons that you, Global, are forgetting.

No, Orwell, you have forgotten history. Repubs lost.

well, my house has been invaded by a 2-year-old.

Back later.

Make that incompetent losers.

Incompetent sore losers.

And if Global were herself in the game instead of kicking about brainless ideas like "we are occupiers" she would understand how long we were in Germany and how we still have military posts in Japan.

The Germans and the Japanese aren't using daisy-chained 155mm mortar rounds to blow up our armored vehicles, now are they?

That's a lovely shade of bitch you're wearing, Orwell. Did you pick that up when your mommy took you to buy school clothes?

mister pedantic, we needed a draft four years ago IF we were going to occupy a hostile country. The supporters of the Iraqi invasion/occupation assured the American people there would be no hostility towards their liberators, which was a lie told to fool the American people into thinking the 'war' would not cost many American soldiers' lives.

If we had a draft now, there would be nothing to stop Bush's invasion and attempted occupation of Iran. So, I think we might be much better off without a draft. If a draft is instituted now, as we begin pulling out of Iraq (hopefully), what would the reason for doing so be, to prevent other stupid wars because every family would be impacted and therefore be against the new war, preventing our politicians from starting it? In other words, we need a large standing army populatd with conscripts to prevent our politicians from starting wars because the families of those conscripts would not allow it. I think the American people have already demonstrated their ignorance and inability to critically analyze the lies told to us by our politicians about our national security. Americans are too susceptible to fear, and are ready to find enemies anywhere a defense contractor's boy/girl happens to point.

I am of the opinion that if Bush's Stupid War leads to the destruction of the US military and prevents America from starting more stupid wars, that would be the only good outcome of this military exercise. Of course, the deaths of so many Iraqis does not make this outcome desirable, but it is already too late to prevent that. The best outcome available is to ensure the complete destruction of America's ability to wage offensive wars, which is Murtha's and his defense contractor's friends nightmare.

Great, so after the great anti-corruption elections of 2006, our choices are a guy with connections to K Street and another guy who doesn't seem to see any compelling reason for ethic or lobbying reform?

I quote Hedley above:

"Can we have a third choice?"

He's not exactly a progressive dream candidate.

This isn't exactly news. Still, I am glad that it is being noticed more widely.

And Pelosi isn't exactly against pork or earmarks, she just opines that they shouldn't be "abused"; i.e., they should go for projects she backs.

Global Citizen:

Don't you have a 2-year old you have to perform a late-term abortion on?

P.S. Pale Rider:

Bob / rmck1 just called YOU a "troll" on the other thread http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_11/010211.php#1000648

shortstop: Apart from any other factor, Murtha is a better choice because we need to present a united front right now to get anything done.

I wouldn't dispute that sentiment, but now that Democrats have a majority it will be soon obvious that they do not have a united front on any policy. They have split on Iraq, tort reform, bankruptcy reform, estate taxes, and energy policy (except for the Clean EDGE Act, which I now expect them to back away from.) Their rare appearances of unity came from the times that they opposed Bush. Now that they have to do something, they won't be able to -- except to hold committee hearings and investigations.

Now, I support the committee hearings and investigations. They will be good for the country. I expect a thorough investigation into everything that Dems and the left have been complaining about, and I expect some serious embarrassments for the Reps. What I do not expect is for the Dems to propose any legislation.

Oh, I am so hurt. Liberals calling me names. If you won the election why so hateful?

Maybe I should say, "The election was stolen! Bad voting machines! The ballots were too confusing!" Nah, only loonies would buy into such logic.

I appreciate every person who has died for my right to say that Murtha is a turncoat liberal.

"Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood." John Murtha. No proof given just his backstabbing words.

Preston: It really makes a lot of progressives who have busted their asses for last several years look like chumps when the new crowd is guilty of some of the same offenses as the old crowd.

Get used to it.

Jeffery, or however you're spelling your name now, STFU.

The racist or the coward.

Orwell, it's this kind of thinking that really damages your side. No wonder the Republicans can't win elections.

No thanks, kbg.

Still can't read, eh, Orwell? Go back to kindergarten, trool.

Public Statement http://www.citizensforethics.org/activities/murtha.html
November 13, 2006

CREW Blasts Pelosi Endorsement of Unethical Murtha for Majority Leader

Washington, DC -- Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) questioned soon-to-be House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's (D-CA) commitment to eradicating corruption with her endorsement of one of the most unethical members in Congress, Rep. John Murtha (D-PA), to be Majority Leader of the House of Representatives.

Rep. Murtha was listed in CREW report "Beyond DeLay: The 20 Most Corrupt Members of Congress (and five to watch)". As reported in the study and by the news media, Rep. Murtha has been involved in a number of pay-to play schemes involving former staffers and his brother, Robert "Kit" Murtha.

Orwell, it's this kind of thinking that really damages your side. No wonder the Republicans can't win elections.

Read that, I could feel your joyous gloat when you typed it.

Congressman Murtha is too old to be an energetic leader.

shortstop:

You voted for Murtha too above for a "united front". So much for stopping the Culture of Corruption, eh?

DocMike:

Even better then his being a coward.

Global Citizen: Murtha as Majority Leader and Skelton as HASC chairman and we might make some progress in freeing ourselves from this morass.

I agree about Skelton, but with Murtha in any leadership position we are going to have to keep watching that ABSCAM video again and again, and read about how rich his family is getting from government contracts. He plays the game better than Randy "Duke" Cunningham played it, but it's basically the same game.

Orwell - We're still in Korea; we never left. It's been 56 years now. We were in Vietnam for 21 years when we should never have been there. (Reject all Vietnam scenarios of a "military victory" - Four million dead is more than enough.)

I'm for Murtha too.

Global,

Samuel Fuller would be proud!

We all agree then? Murtha it is!

All this talk is meaningless if Lieberman decides to throw in with the Republicans. Lieberman now holds the entire Senate hostage to his whims. Cross him, i.e. do something Bush does not like, and he gives the Republicans the majority. He really is the creep we all thought he was.

VE Day included Germany and Italy - All fighting stopped

VJ Day - All fighting stopped

Korea - Ceasefire, still in existence of sorts.

V-I Day - Haven't really heard of it - There was VMA for Victory Mission Accomplished hour and a half or so ceremony of sorts.

Murtha being too old? You guys never questioned Reagan as being too old. Your party keeps looking for younger and younger talent, such as when your Talent Scout Foley was on the prowl.

Fake Jeffrey at 5:33pm, 5:34pm and 5:58pm.

Paul: All this talk is meaningless if Lieberman decides to throw in with the Republicans.

Senators represent the states that elected them. Lieberman's job is to get the best deal for his state that he can. The Democrats abandoned Lieberman, not the other way around.

Speaking of competence, I think that the Democratic abandonment of Lieberman undermines the claim that they are more competent than Republicans. As you say, the Democrats abandoned a Senator whom they need if they are to have a majority.

6:23pm is fake Jeffrey.

Normally I'd let you two idiots torture each other, but Jeffery, leave Bob the hell alone. Somebody posted in that thread using names of a bunch of regular posters and he is currently going batshit crazy falling for these obviously fake posts. Just leave him alone.

Democrats against Murtha need to do more than look back at the recent election. They need to also look forward. It is unlikely that in the near future they won’t need Murtha’s “in” with the military AGAIN to make them credible (I know democratic lack of credibility is unjustified, but its also undeniable – America more all-war-all-the-time than not).

Does Hoyer, offer as much in terms of keeping democrats in power?

Also, as far as I’m concerned democrats OWE Murtha as he was THE key to making 2006 happen. Without his ability to fend off being swift-boated, the whole Iraq-is-a-disaster meme falls apart; Ned Lamont is successfully painted a nut case; and democrats cave and run for cover hoping, once AGAIN, that republicans won’t be mean to them. And if you recall, prior to Murtha, Iraq was viewed in the corporate media as a positive for republicanism; unka karl formulated his whole program around it.

Democrats won by being broad-based and having ‘correct’ appeal to the electorate where it was needed: left in left districts, rightish in rightish districts. It took all types to win the big enchilada.
.

What will you give me, shortstop?

Why don't you think about the larger picture, Charlie? It's not what I can give you, is it?

Jesus. You guys are a piece of work.

How about you promise to leave Washington Monthly too?

The latest updates;

Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) is blasting Nancy Pelosi's support of Jack Murtha to be House Majority Leader. Murtha, CREW says, is "one of the most unethical members in Congress."

http://www.citizensforethics.org/press/newsrelease.php?view=178

And according to the center for Responsive Politics (opensecrets.org) Murtha was one of the top 20 biggest lobbyist Cash cows in Congress, and the biggest lobbyist cash cow in the house with the exception of Tom DeLay. "K Street" Steny Hoyer didn't make either list.

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.asp?Ind=K02&cycle=2006

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.asp?Ind=K02&Cycle=2006&recipdetail=H&Mem=Y&sortorder=U

I know I'm an idiot, but why does everyone hate me? Be nice or I'm gonna leave...FOREVER!

Fake "Jeffery" at 7:30 PM.

P.S. to shortstop -- still waiting for your acceptance or counter-offer.

I already suggested you think about what God can give you, Charlie. That's my "offer." Think about it.

Charlie,

Your word is worth considerably less than a kleenex made soggy with snot.

And your judgement is worth less than your word, as we have seen time after time.

So if some of us confuse you for a loathsome piece of feces, well, that's why.

Oh, that was the "bigger picture" reference? I thought you were taking the Lord's Name in vain again.

Paul

Lieberman was elected to a 6 year term. Yes, he can wreck havoc for the next two, but after that one side or the other will probably gain a few seats in the Senate. Unless he is loyal to Democrats now, his last 4 years will be really, really miserable. He isn't really loved by Republcians. Of course, he might have made a secret deal to run as McCain's VP, but I doubt it.

why would mccain pick losermon as his running mate? losermon has no following execpt a few republicans in ct desparate to not vote for a democrat. Given a real choice, republicans are as repulsed by losermon as democrats are.

As much as I dislike Murtha, he would be the best choice to shield Democrats from the weak on defense and cut and run persona the Republicans place on them. He is the Democratic originator of withdrawal, and maybe that means something.

Without Republican votes (he got 70% of the Republican vote) and money,Lieberman would be home finding some other way of massaging his (massive) ego than appearing on Hannity's radio show and trading kisses. Where was JoMo the day after the election? That's right,pandering to the right that got him back where he wanted to be. JoMo will find a way,on some crucial vote like wireless intercepts or interrogations, to pay the Dems back for the recent election.
He must have an Irish streak in him somewhere since that's what Irish alzheimers is:forgetting everything but the grudges.

Instead of bleating about their negatives that both men seem to have in similar quanities how about the positives? On the plus side so far Murtha's got name recognition at the national level on the key issue of the last election and the good will of the speaker. What big positives does Hoyer got that trumps these? I'm not seeing anything of real substance being brought up. I'm not real thrilled with either Murtha or Pelosi, but compared to the vileness we've witnessed on the other side of the aisle they're angles.

Frankly, I think the trolls are scared shitless that they'll be seeing Murtha up there after the way he turned their attempted swift-boating against them.

Good night, shortstop.

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off-topic, about Iran and al Qaeda.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/14/wiran14.xml

In case anybody scrolls down past the Chinese.

joe:Frankly, I think the trolls are scared shitless that they'll be seeing Murtha up there after the way he turned their attempted swift-boating against them.

I don't know about trolls, but we swing voters will enjoy watching the Democratic clowns take over from the Republican clowns.

… the new crowd is guilty of some of the same offenses as the old crowd. Preston at 1:39 PM

Steny Hoyer is 100% AIPAC, and it's no surprise that Jane Harman also has close ties to AIPAC and its Bush administration supporters

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As the resident Marylander...lemme just clear my throat and say "bite me Hoyer."

He's the Tammany Hall candidate. Murtha might trip over his dick once in a while, but he's got guts and guts is enough. He's stuck his head out repeatedly. He's perfect example of how you don't have to cater to the Brady idiots to win as a Democrat. I'm pro choice, but also recognize that he's not going to have much of any opportunity at all to hurt us in that regard.

Murtha is it.

And who the hell is named Steny anyway? It's almost as bad as Condoleeza. Ugh.

Murtha as Majority Leader has an added bonus, it should preclude him from being chair of the Appropriations Committee and thus limit his pork intake. Murtha is from the 'alabama' region of central Pennsylvania and provides nice balance for San Fran Nancy.
If the election was for money man then Steny would be perfect but since it is for leader I hope the Dems chose someone who has actual experience leading.

joe wrote:

On the plus side so far Murtha's got name recognition at the national level on the key issue of the last election and the good will of the speaker. What big positives does Hoyer got that trumps these?
___________________

What Hoyer has is a clean slate. Forget ABSCAM and his own failings, Murtha has dealt several blows of his own to the Ethics Committee. Is he the man to change the "culture of corruption?"

Darn it, Pale Rider and shortstop -- our choice for Murtha didn't make it -- I wouldn't have thought Pelosi's first defeat would have come from her rear.

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