Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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November 21, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

IRAQ TO AMERICA: GET OUT.... PIPA has released a new poll of Iraqi attitudes toward the U.S. occupation, and the takeaway is very, very clear: they want us to leave. 74% of Shiites and 91% of Sunnis want us to leave within a year (the number is 80% for Shiites in Baghdad). By wide margins, both groups believe U.S. forces are provoking more violence than they're preventing, and both groups believe that day-to-day security would improve if we left. Support for attacks on U.S. forces now commands majority support among both Shiites and Sunnis. And none of this is because of successful al-Qaeda propaganda: 94% of Iraqis continue to disapprove of al-Qaeda.

Now, it may be that these views are misguided. But it hardly matters: it's simply not possible for us to occupy the country successfully if a majority of Iraqis actively support attacks on our troops and a vast majority think we're responsible for the rising violence. It's time for us to leave.

The report summary is here. The full report is here.

UPDATE: Note that the date of this report is September 27. It's pretty recent, but it's not quite "new," as I said in the main post.

Kevin Drum 2:27 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (129)

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www.LouDobbs4President.com Petition

Posted by: darraugh on November 21, 2006 at 2:32 AM | PERMALINK

Al, Chickenhawk, isn't it time for you to tell our brown brothers how misguided they are not to fully appreciate the wonderful gifts our dear leader has brought them? Or is it that the true believers have been betrayed by the obvious liberal bias of pollsters, journalists, and state-department officials.

Quick: choose one! Less than two years until Bush is out on his alcoholic ass and free to choke on all the pretzels he can shovel in at the supermarket openings he'll end up attending.

Posted by: Kenji on November 21, 2006 at 2:40 AM | PERMALINK

Support for attacks on U.S. forces now commands majority support among both Shiites and Sunnis.

Sounds to me like we've actually found the central front for the war on terror.

You can give up if you want, but your president and his supporters will keep working till they achieve a lasting victory. You'll be thanking him later when your retired and living off your personal private retirement account.

Posted by: Al on November 21, 2006 at 2:58 AM | PERMALINK

Well, duh!!

Posted by: Foundation of Mud on November 21, 2006 at 3:22 AM | PERMALINK

Hah? Townhall has already demolished your liberal interpretation of the Pipa poll.

Link

"The PIPA poll asked, "Thinking about any hardships you might have suffered since the U.S.-Britain invasion, do you personally think ousting Saddam Hussein was worth it or not?" The answer for 61 percent: Yes, it was worth it."

"The PIPA poll found that 47 percent of Iraqis think their country is headed in the right direction. Compare that to a recent poll that found that 44 percent of Californians say the state is headed in the right direction."

Posted by: Al on November 21, 2006 at 3:27 AM | PERMALINK

That's gotta be fake Al, because how else could he take the bait so far down his throat so quickly? Okay, lots of training, maybe.

Posted by: Kenji on November 21, 2006 at 3:29 AM | PERMALINK

America knows what's best for Iraqis (along with Iranians under the Shah and Chileans under Pinochet, and everyone else who's got minerals and oil we want). We always have and always will. Why don't they wise up?

Posted by: DevilDog on November 21, 2006 at 3:31 AM | PERMALINK

Those ingrates.

Posted by: Kenji on November 21, 2006 at 3:37 AM | PERMALINK

"The PIPA poll asked, "Thinking about any hardships you might have suffered since the U.S.-Britain invasion, do you personally think ousting Saddam Hussein was worth it or not?" The answer for 61 percent: Yes, it was worth it."

One of the design flaws of the study was that it was unable to poll the 600k dead Iraqis to see if they thought the personal hardships they have suffered was worth toppling Saddam.

Posted by: Disputo on November 21, 2006 at 3:49 AM | PERMALINK

Disputo -
beautiful

Posted by: DNS on November 21, 2006 at 3:57 AM | PERMALINK

I think it's completely plausible for all the poll data to be consistent; that is to say, the Iraqis are happy about Saddam's ouster (now that it's a done deal, after all), and generally have high hopes for the future of their country (the Shia and the Kurds do anyway), but still want us to leave.

Of course, Kevin is right. The idea that us leaving will improve the security situation is misguided at best.

Posted by: Benny on November 21, 2006 at 5:33 AM | PERMALINK

But what about all those bases that we built/are building complete with KFC and Burger King outlets...I guess they can be converted to kebab joints.

Posted by: Dirk on November 21, 2006 at 5:42 AM | PERMALINK

"The PIPA poll found that 47 percent of Iraqis think their country is headed in the right direction.

But the direction they're heading in is killing Americans.

Posted by: tomeck on November 21, 2006 at 5:49 AM | PERMALINK

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Posted by: fsg on November 21, 2006 at 5:55 AM | PERMALINK

It not like Bush really believes in democracy or anything like that, from Bush world the we're getting that the Iraqis don't want us to leave.

Bush doesn't want to leave the oil and his billion dollar military bases. That's the only thing Paul Wolfowitz really wanted from the Iraqi people, just the oil they were swimming in, and nothing else.

This war was never about anything BUT OIL.

Posted by: Cheryl on November 21, 2006 at 5:56 AM | PERMALINK

Cheryl - indeed. However, it isn't that Bush and his cronies wanted the oil to use, they wanted to be able to control the flow of Iraqi oil. Read Greg Palast's Armed Madhouse. Saddam was too unpredicatable and the oil barons didn't like that unpredictability, because as I have written many times, these neocons don't really believe in free markets - they believe in rigged markets.

When we get the transcripts of Dick Cheney's energy task force, which Ken Lay and James Baker attended, during Cheney's impeachment trial, this will all become very clear...

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on November 21, 2006 at 6:06 AM | PERMALINK

well, if Iraqis are giving us permission to surrender control of the Persian Gulf to Iran I guess we should do it. Thanks, Kevin, for clearing that little mess up.

Now if Bush would just listen to the polls and step down as President gosh darn it wouldn't things be swell?

Posted by: saintsimon on November 21, 2006 at 6:51 AM | PERMALINK

We'll be out as soon as the Dems cut funding. And then the Republicans will win the next fifty elections. And then I can get my pony.

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 7:35 AM | PERMALINK

There isn't any disconnect by the Iraqis. The Shi'Alis certainly think Saddam should have been deposed,they thought it would happen in '91(much to their chagrin). Does chagrin connote death,by the way? So if a poll asks if they're grateful SH is gone,of course they say yes.
Do they think things are going in the right direction? Again,with SH gone compared to when he was there,then yes. Plus the neighborhoods are cleaning up nicely. Neighbors can know their neighbors see things the same way. None of that messy heresy next door.
The fallacy arises from thinking that: IF grateful SH is gone AND things going the right way THEN they support the US occupation. This outcome, if true is the surest way to find the pony but it just doesn't have to be true.

Get out; get out now. It will take several months to do it right but it's definitely time to start.


Posted by: TJM on November 21, 2006 at 8:24 AM | PERMALINK

Mommy!

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 8:47 AM | PERMALINK

Michael Richards for UN ambassador! Did you see that guy?

He could tell Kofi Annan a thing or two.

Posted by: Al on November 21, 2006 at 8:48 AM | PERMALINK

Sounds to me like we've actually found the central front for the war on terror.

We have found the enemy and he is us...

Posted by: Stephen on November 21, 2006 at 8:50 AM | PERMALINK

...well, if Iraqis are giving us permission to surrender control of the Persian Gulf to Iran...

Really, really rich. Surrender control of the Persian Gulf to Iran??

We've taken out Iran's adversary (Saddam). We've turned over the governing of Iraq to a coalition of Shiite parties, most of whose leaders are Islamic fundies and great pals of Iran. We've strengthened Iran's regional power and influence.

I'm wonderin' if there's anything more that we could do to help out Iran? Hey, I know! Like their loose-cannon president suggested, why don't we let them enrich our uranium for us, and sell it back to us at a 50% discount?

Posted by: Wonderin on November 21, 2006 at 8:53 AM | PERMALINK

"The PIPA poll found that 47 percent of Iraqis think their country is headed in the right direction. Compare that to a recent poll that found that 44 percent of Californians say the state is headed in the right direction."

Well, I suppose that shoots down my idea of sending the Terminator off to Baghdad...

Posted by: Vincent on November 21, 2006 at 9:15 AM | PERMALINK

Who cares what the Iraqis think? We're going to give them freedom & democracy whether they like it or not, if we have to kill very last one of them to do so!

Posted by: rea on November 21, 2006 at 9:20 AM | PERMALINK

Mr. Drum said:

Now, it may be that these views are misguided. But it hardly matters: it's simply not possible for us to occupy the country successfully if a majority of Iraqis actively support attacks on our troops and a vast majority think we're responsible for the rising violence. It's time for us to leave.

I was not aware that we were, in fact, occupying the country of Iraq in any capacity. I thought we were there to take their oil. What's wrong with this entire picture is this:

The Iraqis aren't letting us take their oil.

Good golly!

The Persian Gulf is an international body of water that needs to remain open. Perhaps by leaving Iraq to its own devices, we can focus our efforts on maintaining the security of the Persian Gulf by means of keeping our ships and our ground forces in a position to deter any attempt to attack oil tankers and/or close the Straits of Hormuz. One thinks that the world wide economy really shouldn't be hammered with $125 a barrel oil any time soon, too many people are having a tough time as it is.

A cold winter, a desire to stay warm, all of this could lead to a run on heating oil. Did you know--people have signed contracts to guarantee a fixed price on the heating oil they need to heat their homes. Well, Captain Sensible has read how, because of the drop in oil prices, those guaranteed contracts now charge more for the heating oil than would be charged on the open market--creating nifty profits for the people who stuff money in their underwear by the bushel load and causing grief to the people just trying to heat their homes.

How is it in 2006 people still need to struggle to heat their home? Or eat? Why can't we take care of this? Oh, that's right. Billions must be spent on a war to keep up a supply of oil from Iraq which has turned into a quagmire of violence and horror. Our war for oil turned into a war that keeps everyone from getting any oil. Smart thinking, there.

Gosh, it all smells like 1988 to me and I would rather not hear any of that beeping and booping crap music right now.

Captain Sensible's verdict: a good post by Mr. Drum, with a heavy emphasis on dealing with reality and making the world safe for American democracy.

Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 9:23 AM | PERMALINK

We'll be out as soon as the Dems cut funding. And then the Republicans will win the next fifty elections. And then I can get my pony.
Posted by: Jeffery

It looks like we're going to need 20k more troops, Charliee. Now hurry up and get to your nearest recruiting station.

It's not like you would be cowardly enough to have others fight your battles for you, would it?

Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on November 21, 2006 at 9:28 AM | PERMALINK

Damn insensible Iraqis! How the hell did they get the pernicious idea that they should not support the occupation of their country by foreigners?

That's the difference between the enlightened Western civilization and the rest of the world. If, instead of Iraq, it was a western nation that we were occupying, it's citizens would be bringing tea and cookies and chocolate to our soldiers every morning.

Posted by: gregor on November 21, 2006 at 9:29 AM | PERMALINK

In all fairness Kevin, note that most Iraqis want us to stay one year vs. only 6 months.

Posted by: Neil' on November 21, 2006 at 9:30 AM | PERMALINK

Hey, I dig Lou Dobbs (see top) and think he could make a great populist candidate. Per the signature issue here: If most Iraqis support attacks on US soldiers, then they don't deserve any help at all regardless of timetable questions. Why aren't the "patriotic" chickenhawk/chickensquawk crowd all over this and demanding we quit putting our soldiers lives and limbs on the line for a hostile populace?

Posted by: Neil' on November 21, 2006 at 9:33 AM | PERMALINK

Captain Sensible,

Glad to see your recent promotion from Sgt First Class - Battle Against Shrubocracy Field Commission, I take it?

Posted by: thethirdPaul on November 21, 2006 at 9:44 AM | PERMALINK

As far as I know, only one MSM member has ever asked the biggest elephant-in-the-room question ever:

Why the f**k are we in Iraq?

Posted by: Vast Left on November 21, 2006 at 9:47 AM | PERMALINK

**Sounds to me like we've actually found the central front for the war on terror.**, Al - 2006

Yup - turns out it's the Iraqi people. Guess we picked the right place to fight this war after all.

Still seems to be a lot of confusion between supporting the war and supporting how it was waged. Iraqi's may think that removing Saddam was worth bloodshed, but that Bush's handling of the war cost too much.

Posted by: wishIwuz2 on November 21, 2006 at 9:48 AM | PERMALINK

Why aren't the "patriotic" chickenhawk/chickensquawk crowd all over this and demanding we quit putting our soldiers lives and limbs on the line for a hostile populace?

i'm gonna go with A, "because it would make The Party look bad".

Posted by: cleek on November 21, 2006 at 9:53 AM | PERMALINK

How would liberals make decisions if there were no polls to back up their opinions?

Is it the American army they do not want or any army?

What if the Iraqis are unhappy with the army there and unhappy if the army leaves? The polls seem to indicate that as well.

Another liberal quandry. How can you govern when you aren't sure which way the wind is blowing?

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 9:55 AM | PERMALINK

Now if Bush would just listen to the polls and step down as President gosh darn it wouldn't things be swell?

Only if he locks Cheney in that secret bunker first.

Posted by: tomeck on November 21, 2006 at 10:03 AM | PERMALINK

How would liberals make decisions if there were no polls to back up their opinions?

We'd have to pull them out of our ass the same way you guys do.

Posted by: tomeck on November 21, 2006 at 10:05 AM | PERMALINK

When are these "borrow and squander" conservatives going to start paying for this dirty, filthy war????

Stop stealing from our children! - This should be what Democrats say every time they get in front of a microphone. It's simple and people get it. Use it!!!

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on November 21, 2006 at 10:08 AM | PERMALINK

Everyone knows the Iraqis are an overly delicate and hyper-critical nationality. In fact, I think HCA's story about the princess and the pea was written after an interaction he had with an Iraqi national.

If you're going to try to make them happy you better make sure you have a lot of olive oil and date molasses.

Posted by: American Hawk on November 21, 2006 at 10:14 AM | PERMALINK

So Kevin, why hasn't Nancy Pelosi called for immediate troop withdrawal????

Posted by: Inch by inch on November 21, 2006 at 10:21 AM | PERMALINK

Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:24 AM | PERMALINK

Someone name of Orwell>

How would liberals make decisions if there were no polls to back up their opinions?

There are no Republican poll takers? There are no Republicans who base their own decisions on polls? Or do they make decisions based on conference calls with men who are snorting crystal meth from the blade of a hunting knife while a gay hooker tosses their salad?

Is it the American army they do not want or any army?

Captain Sensible says: they don't want anyone's army, and they're a bit tired of being slaughtered by all sides, all parties and any army on hand. They might prefer to be left alone, you might say.

What if the Iraqis are unhappy with the army there and unhappy if the army leaves? The polls seem to indicate that as well.

Are you saying now that polls matter in the course of actually making decisions? Your premise now shrinks like a slug that is doused with salt and shrivels up. Earlier, you said that opinion polls didn't matter by way of denigrating liberals for actually responding and acting upon the information they provide. Now you are a slave to them. Do you know the story of the man who was a slave to the thing that he claimed to be master of? Probably not. The irony of it would shatter your psyche.

Another liberal quandry. How can you govern when you aren't sure which way the wind is blowing?

More hot air from someone who pretends not to know that the answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.

And what is blowing in the wind is change. Captain Sensible declares you to be a harmless curiosity with little to offer. A gentle pat on the head and now off you go, back to your cave, you're not a troll yet. More bones and rancid meat and you may come back with the characteristics of a true troll, but not this day.

Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 10:25 AM | PERMALINK

tomeck - "We'd have to pull them out of our ass the same way you guys do."

That implies that liberals would actually do something - oh wait a minute. Pulling out. Yeah I guess I can see liberals doing that.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:26 AM | PERMALINK

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:26 AM | PERMALINK

Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:28 AM | PERMALINK

I sometimes think that the price of liberty is not so much eternal vigilance as eternal dirt.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:35 AM | PERMALINK

Who cares what the Irockis want? They are using slow brains baked in the heat of primitive lands. Let them whine and bleed. Us White Americans understand what is best for all other races and we'll bring them a better life if it kills them. Amen.

Posted by: The White American on November 21, 2006 at 10:36 AM | PERMALINK

Mommy!

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:37 AM | PERMALINK

All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:38 AM | PERMALINK
Sounds to me like we've actually found the central front for the war on terror.

Correct, Al, the struggle by Sunni and Shi'ite Iraqis alike against the terror imposed on them by foreign occupation is the central front in the war on terror.

Posted by: cmdicely on November 21, 2006 at 10:39 AM | PERMALINK

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:39 AM | PERMALINK

Speaking of polls, whatever happened to the 64 or 68 polls Rove bragged about on "All Things Considered" before the election?

No, Rove does not believe in polls - He ran on fear in 02 and 04, but when the polls turned against him in 06, he tried to change the subject to the economy - Funny, how that played both ways in his losses across the land.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on November 21, 2006 at 10:42 AM | PERMALINK

It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:42 AM | PERMALINK
I think it's completely plausible for all the poll data to be consistent; that is to say, the Iraqis are happy about Saddam's ouster (now that it's a done deal, after all), and generally have high hopes for the future of their country (the Shia and the Kurds do anyway), but still want us to leave.

Indeed, the idea that a country under a unwelcome, undemocratic rule would want foreign help so far as necessary to remove that unwanted rule, and then want the foreigners to get the hell out of the way is, well, pretty easy to understand. After all, its not like we wanted the French to hang around with their fingers on the scales of US government once they helped us kick the British out.

Posted by: cmdicely on November 21, 2006 at 10:44 AM | PERMALINK

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:45 AM | PERMALINK

Time to declare victory and go home.

Posted by: alex on November 21, 2006 at 10:45 AM | PERMALINK

The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:46 AM | PERMALINK

War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:47 AM | PERMALINK

What can you do against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing and then simply persists in his lunacy?

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

cmdicely - I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

The fact that Iraqis know what hell will come when we leave, and continue to prefer that we go, pretty much says it all. I can't even begin to imagine what a heart-wrenching choice this is.

The people that love this war have never come to terms with this fact.

Posted by: enozinho (wetorture.com) on November 21, 2006 at 10:56 AM | PERMALINK

Someone name of Orwell>

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning.

In and of themselves, these quotes are misappropriated for the topic at hand. The current quagmire is one of its own making. There is no precedent in American history for a folly such as Iraq. It is purely a war for oil, with the canard of Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Weapons thrown in to season the bitter dish and feed it down the unsuspecting gullet of a people who have conveniently forgotten the why of going to war.

One does not go to war for a thing such as oil; one goes to war because none of the diplomatic options worked or because the aggressor is insisting on stepping out of their lane to take advantage of someone else.

The First Gulf War is a convenient place to start, if only because it was a war about stopping an aggressor from taking more oil than they needed, a strange paradox if you have read this far and know what Captain Sensible is saying. Perhaps if this madman name of Saddam had been put in a box the first time and not allowed to scamper about with mischief in his eyes, we would not be discussing a war in Iraq that has lasted this long and has taken so many good people away from the side where we are living.

Captain Sensible notices that none of your quotes works the way that you are trying to employ them. You are using the nifty option of the cut and the paste and dropping these nuggets of yours into a discussion where they are flat and outdated. Slick down that hair of yours, it is on fire without a good reason, and continue to nibble your bones and your rotted flesh in your cave. Still not a troll, but rather a confused interloper.

Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 10:57 AM | PERMALINK

How can we stand down...
If they keep standing up and voting in polls wrong?

Posted by: ROTFLMLiberalAO on November 21, 2006 at 10:59 AM | PERMALINK

I don't read polls. I read Shakespeares.

Posted by: George on November 21, 2006 at 11:02 AM | PERMALINK

All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.

Cue the chickenhawks.

Posted by: Stephen on November 21, 2006 at 11:06 AM | PERMALINK

Why do they hate....
Oh, that's why...

Posted by: why not on November 21, 2006 at 11:18 AM | PERMALINK

Captain Sensible notices that none of your quotes works the way that you are trying to employ them.

Orwell notices that Capt Sensible guesses wrong as to how the quotes are being employed.

Better luck next time.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 11:20 AM | PERMALINK

I'm Orwellian.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 11:27 AM | PERMALINK

Imagine if the Dems had a 1993 poll showing 80% of Somalis wanted the US to pull out.

Posted by: Frequency Kenneth on November 21, 2006 at 11:32 AM | PERMALINK

Yeah, count me as one more optimistic neo-con who thinks it's time to cash it in, draw down to 10 - 15K troop in bases in Kurdistan and admit we lost.

Maybe we lost because it was always a stupid idea to invade, maybe we lost because we didn't have enough troops, maybe because Bush/Rumsfield are bumbling fools, maybe it's the proverbial "lack of will." I'm sure that books by the ton will be written in the coming years to assign weight (if any) to the various factors. But right now the why of it is less important than the fact that a majority of Iraqis and a majority of Americans think it's time we left. Given those two facts there aren't other many other options.

And now we need to start figuring how to best reap the whirlwind which we've created in Iraq and the rest of the Middle East.

Posted by: TW Andrews on November 21, 2006 at 11:33 AM | PERMALINK

Orwell, now that OJ's book won't be published maybe you can get Murdoch to publish your tome, "If I had a thousand asinine platitudes to print, this is what I would say."

That implies that liberals would actually do something

We did do something. We won the last election, chump.

Posted by: tomeck on November 21, 2006 at 11:34 AM | PERMALINK

Imagine if the Dems had a 1993 poll showing 80% of Somalis wanted the US to pull out.

And we were in Somalia because of whom, Frequently Idiotic??? Ohhhh, that's right, Dumbya the Lesser (or Elder, if you will), who sent troops into Somalia weeks before leaving office as a final "Fuck You" to Clinton for winning the election.

But don't let facts get in the way of you Frequent Idiocy.

Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on November 21, 2006 at 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

I enjoy reading Orwell.

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 11:49 AM | PERMALINK

Mommy!

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 11:58 AM | PERMALINK

Imagine if the Dems had a 1993 poll showing 80% of Somalis wanted the US to pull out.

imagine if the country took a poll and decided they were sick of failed Republican military misadventures. just imagine...

Posted by: cleek on November 21, 2006 at 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

actually, you completely missed the point. this poll shows that the Shiites think they've won. therefore, they agree that America can leave now.

Posted by: abc123 on November 21, 2006 at 12:07 PM | PERMALINK

Imagine if the Dems had a 1993 poll showing 80% of Somalis wanted the US to pull out.

Well, let's not imagine -- let's consider what really happened, which is that it was the Republicans who wanted to cut and run from Somalia. See, e.g., Glenn Greenwald for further details:

Clinton -- along with Democratic senators such as John Kerry -- vigorously argued against immediate withdrawal, in part because of the concern that America would look weak by panicking and abandoning its mission at the first sign of trouble (just like President Reagan did in 1983 when he immediately withdrew U.S. forces from Lebanon after the attack on U.S. Marines). Clinton had to virtually beg to be allowed to keep troops for an additional six months (and he even increased American troop levels) to stabilize the situation, demonstrate U.S. resolve and a commitment to the mission and, most of all, avoid a panicky, fear-driven retreat.

I have compiled -- here -- just some of the numerous Senate speeches by conservative Republican senators demanding immediate troop withdrawals, speeches by Clinton and Democratic senators (such as John Kerry) warning of the dangers of immediately withdrawing in the face of U.S. casualties, and various news accounts making clear that the cut-and-run argument was being made most vocally by conservative Republican senators who wanted to force the commander in chief to abandon the mission in Somalia the minute it became difficult and dangerous. Reading these excepts reveals just how completely misleading -- how outrageously revisionist -- is the accusation that it was Bill Clinton who emboldened Islamic extremists by beating a quick retreat from Somalia.

Republican senators attempted to force an immediate withdrawal and then ultimately compromised on a compelled withdrawal in six months. As but one example, from a Senate floor speech by Sen. Dirk Kempthorne, on Oct. 6, 1993: "The United States has no interest in the civil war in Somalia and as this young soldier told me, if the Somalis are now healthy enough to be fighting us, then it is absolutely time that we go home ... It is time for the Senate of the United States to get on with the debate, to get on with the vote, and to get the American troops home." Sen. Robert Dole, in a Senate speech, on Oct. 5, 1993: "I think it is clear to say from the meeting we had earlier with -- I do not know how many Members were there -- 45, 50 Senators and half the House of Representatives, that the administration is going to be under great pressure to bring the actions in Somalia to a close."

Contrary to neoconservative myth, the U.S. did not run away from Somalia at the first sign of violence. Rather, we stayed six months and even increased our troop levels, but only because President Clinton fought and battled to do so in the face of right-wing demands that he cut and run immediately.

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/09/25/clinton/index.html

Posted by: Stefan on November 21, 2006 at 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

Someone name of Orwell>

Orwell notices that Capt Sensible guesses wrong as to how the quotes are being employed.

No, the guess was not a guess; it was a correct assessment of the fact that you are cutting and pasting comments into a blog thread to swerve the discussion away from the topic at hand in order to draw attention to yourself.

The harmless gnat, name of Jeffery, has nothing to offer but distraction and confusion as well. Once the tactic that the two of you are employing plays out, you are left with nothing accomplished because your man screeched Mission Accomplished long before he should have. Antyhing to get good people to stop noticing the war, the atrocities, the horror and the insanity. It is a story found often in modern times; the people are like sheep to be led and will be easily distracted by disruptions, distortions and diatribes.

Both of you are harmless, but foul in your temperment and worthy of nothing more than a shrug. This is what you spend your time doing? It has to be empty and hollow at the end of the day when you have disrupted the efforts of others to share, learn, and discuss. Your inability to do any of those things is what you are attempting to compensate for; Captain Sensible has pity for you and will not acknowledge you from this point forward.

Discuss, good people, and know that the disruptions are intentional, not accidental, and driven by a desire to make up for some personality defect these individuals are spending precious hours of the day attempting to hide from the world.

Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 12:10 PM | PERMALINK

Goodbye, Captain Sensible. We shall miss you.

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 12:14 PM | PERMALINK

People once thought that slaves didn't deserve freedom, either.

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 12:17 PM | PERMALINK

What slaves are you talking about?! Iraqis?

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 12:20 PM | PERMALINK

Truthfully, there's some good news in the PIPA survey, assuming it's accurate.

PM Maliki seems to have sufficient popularity to run the government and the Iraqi people have increasing confidence in the ability of their own military. Both of those things are goals we've been working towards.

Even the question on attacking US troops can be turned around if we can clarify that we have no intention of permanently stationing troops in Iraq. Publishing a timetable for withdrawal would be the simplest way, but there are others. And we will eventually have a withdrawal plan of some sort, so we can expect improvement in that area.

I wish they had asked this: "How motivated are you to personally support attacks on US troops?"

Posted by: Trashhauler on November 21, 2006 at 12:24 PM | PERMALINK

Someone name of Stefan posted this information>

Contrary to neoconservative myth, the U.S. did not run away from Somalia at the first sign of violence. Rather, we stayed six months and even increased our troop levels, but only because President Clinton fought and battled to do so in the face of right-wing demands that he cut and run immediately.

No US soldier went to Somalia without the orders signed by George HW Bush, "41", and this was one of the abandoned and ill-considered messes left to William J Clinton. (Iraq was another mess, as was the issue with Balkan ethnic genocide, and to be certain, there were a dozen or so lesser messes, but those were the major ones.) Why is it not clear to everyone that Republicans make messes like insolent teenagers with pimples and bad haircuts and Democrats have to be the adults with good shoes to clean them up? It should be universally acknowledged as a fact of nature by now, but the distractions are strong and sometimes it is hard to see what is staring those poor teenagers in the face.

Why were they there? There is no oil in Somalia to speak of, at least, no infrastructure to properly steal it from the people and make billions.

Captain Sensible says: Wheresoever there is oil, you will also find the boot of the soldier.

This is the principle of modern war: it is because of increasing demand for finite resources that some nations go to war, usually with religion as a false pretext or a manufactured bogeyman to hold up and shake in front of a well-positioned camera. This is true when the Republicans run the country; when the Democrats run the country, they tend to enter limited but more idealistic conflicts they did not start. (the Balkans was that curiousity among wars, fought from the air for the right reasons with an outcome that actually favored peace and stability. How rare.)

No, Somalia was an attempt to protect shipping lanes and to make inroads of good will into the horn of Africa where misguided Islamic fundamentalism and pure criminal greed has now given birth to some nasty and virulent strains of terrorism and strife. It was, in fact, a nest of vipers and no matter which was chosen to be an ally, that viper would strike when the inclination hit it. Somalia was, at least to Captain Sensible's thinking, a good reason to abandon the policy of "Nation Building" and to insist on another course.

"Nation Building" is what a Republican calls, derisively, any attempt by a Democrat to improve the lives of people who are under the heel of oppression. Republicans only engage in "Nation Building" when they think there's a profit in it for them, hence, the attempt to build a nation in Iraq where there already was a corrupt one, thank you very much, and sneak the oil out in big trucks and pipelines. If you need a clear example of Republican hypocrisy, choose to explore the topic of "Nation Building" and you will find fertile ground in which to plant seeds.

Too bad the Iraqis know how to stop such nonsense. It has made for a long war, hasn't it? And how much oil do you have to show for it?

Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 12:30 PM | PERMALINK

It's time for us to leave.

Within a year.

I personally think it would be best if we pulled out
when the Iraqi parliament passed a resolution laying out the timetable for withdrawal, or the American Congress, instead of leaving it to pollsters.

In his last visit to the U.S., the elected president of Iraq requested that we remain a while longer. I am not sure that the Iraqis have cottoned on to the fact that, with an elected government, they can make the government pass a resolution requiring us to withdraw, that is if 94% are really in favor.

Posted by: MatthewRMarler on November 21, 2006 at 12:35 PM | PERMALINK

oops, slight typo above. scratch that 94%, which is the number who say they disapprove of al Qaeda:

It's time for us to leave.

68% of Iraqis want Americans to stay at least 6 months. So the "time for us to leave" is at least 6 months in the future. My guess is that 6 months from now that figure will ba about the same.

Posted by: MatthewRMarler on November 21, 2006 at 12:39 PM | PERMALINK

I notice the real Orwell (1903-1950) has made an appearance on this thread. Welcome, sir.

Posted by: benjoya on November 21, 2006 at 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

Someone name of MatthewRMarler>

68% of Iraqis want Americans to stay at least 6 months. So the "time for us to leave" is at least 6 months in the future. My guess is that 6 months from now that figure will ba about the same.

Do you know the unit of time measurement called the Friedman?

When you are drowning in your own blood, to wait six months is to ensure you will have a harder time escaping from the hell of your own making.

Captain Sensible says to leave immediately is to live to fight another day. The next war is a certainty; better to learn from this mistake and allow the chaos of the Middle East to settle itself.

Finding a way to live without so much oil? That would be beneficial as well.

Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 12:43 PM | PERMALINK

The enemy within boys and girls, is the true enemy

That's sick. Alert Homeland Security!

Posted by: benjoya on November 21, 2006 at 12:44 PM | PERMALINK

Jews in media - even Hersh - are laying out the reasons for war.

Paging Orwell. Hersh is trying to alert people to the lunatics who want to attack Iran. I guess his name leads somenone like you to think he's pushing war, but - oh, why engage such idiots?

Posted by: benjoya on November 21, 2006 at 12:49 PM | PERMALINK

WTF?

Do the Iraqis think it is their county?

It's our oil, and we will do as we see fit. They need to STFU and accept freedom.

snark/

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on November 21, 2006 at 1:05 PM | PERMALINK

I'll never figure out these swarthy Muslim people.

I mean, all we did was invade them and subject them to an indefinite military occupation. And they have the gall to resist - can you believe that???

Those people are so strange and inscrutable.

Posted by: chuck on November 21, 2006 at 1:37 PM | PERMALINK

No, the guess was not a guess; it was a correct assessment of the fact that you are cutting and pasting comments into a blog thread to swerve the discussion away from the topic at hand in order to draw attention to yourself.

What is most funny is that the guy who parodied Norm is too delusional to comprehend that there may be other parodies in these threads.

No candy for you today, but thanks for drawing attention to me.

Posted by: Orwell on November 21, 2006 at 1:44 PM | PERMALINK
68% of Iraqis want Americans to stay at least 6 months. So the "time for us to leave" is at least 6 months in the future.

I would think, instead, that the intelligent thing would be to be gone before the overwhelming majority wants us out immediately, and is willing to make sure that happens by any means necessary.

Remind me, though, never to invite you into my house.

Posted by: cmdicely on November 21, 2006 at 1:52 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, this isn't a new survey. This is, as you can see by looking at the URL of the full report -- http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/sep06/Iraq_Sep06_rpt.pdf, the September 6th survey, with a slightly different summary page. I linked to this survey and wrote about it at length in September.

PIPA's pages always have the current date at the top.

It's invaluable stuff, but it's not new.

Posted by: Gary Farber on November 21, 2006 at 1:56 PM | PERMALINK

A few paragraphs down in the summary page: "World Public Opinion has conducted two recent polls in Iraq: a nationwide sample of 1,150 Iraqi adults, taken Sept. 1-4, 2006, and another nationwide sample of 1,150, conducted Jan. 2-5, 2006. Both surveys were fielded by KA Research Ltd./D3 Systems, Inc."

Posted by: Gary Farber on November 21, 2006 at 2:03 PM | PERMALINK

Over the Last 6 years Kosovo has been an astounding success. Kosovo was ridiculed and maligned by Republicans from the start. Republicans accused the Kosovo Campaign of being a potential "vietnam". Now looking back 6 years later we all can see Kosovo wasen't what the gainsayers claimed.

The Iraq war has been a huge strategetic blunder for the USA. The surprising dismissal of Donald Rumsfeld has only proven corrupt Republican dealings in congress, the electoral college and the judiciary. Republicans have used the power given to them by the people to commit terrible abuses against humanity.

In the last few weeks it has become very apparent Republicans are not as moral as they claimed. The problem with electing people on outward claims of morality is that we have found out they were white washed tombs full of dead men's bones. I

The Iraq campaign has been a big lie and terrible injustice against humanity. The problem with the west is that people don't understand that Muslims don't want to live in a democracy. When Muslims do have a democracy, such as palestine, it changes nothing.

America has made a terrible strategetic blunder in Iraq. By giving Iraqis over $20,000,000 to rebuild Iraq infrastructure America is actually getting more money into the hands of potential terrorist and terrorist. Many terrorist operate businesses, such as construction, trades, and service industrys. The money America is using to beef up the Iraqi econonmy is making it more possible for terrorist to come to America. Now instead of terrorist having to ride in cargo container with beans and rice they can fly first class with caviar.

Iraq has been a terrible failure, a war we all will be better off to soon forget. Kosovo on the other hand has been a success with little acknowledgement by the American press. We should be very thankful for our success in Kosovo and learn that America can succeed in police actions if done in coperation with many other nations. We can't cut and run from NATO and the U.N.

Posted by: james on November 21, 2006 at 2:08 PM | PERMALINK

Captain Sensible wrote about our Somalia mission:

"Why were they there? There is no oil in Somalia to speak of, at least, no infrastructure to properly steal it from the people and make billions...

No, Somalia was an attempt to protect shipping lanes and to make inroads of good will into the horn of Africa where misguided Islamic fundamentalism and pure criminal greed has now given birth to some nasty and virulent strains of terrorism and strife."
___________________

Somalia was an accidental clash. Neither President Bush nor President Clinton intended to initiate hostilities in what had begun as a purely humanitarian effort. Even after President Clinton changed the goals, he was not seeking armed conflict of any size. That's why we were without armor when we needed it.

Posted by: Trashhauler on November 21, 2006 at 2:14 PM | PERMALINK

cmdicely: Remind me, though, never to invite you into my house.

Well.

If you asked me to start leaving six months hence, I certainly would.

Posted by: MatthewRMarler on November 21, 2006 at 2:24 PM | PERMALINK

Keith Olbermann of MSNBC rips Bush a new asshole on the lessons of Viet Nam and how they apply to Iraq. Click on the first YouTube video. Enjoy!!!

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on November 21, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK

Iraq should be viewed much like somolia. We should have got out of Iraq after we toppled Saddam. In Somolia the rangers did capture the people they went to get. They did complete their mission.

Posted by: james on November 21, 2006 at 2:28 PM | PERMALINK

Someone name of trashhauler>

Somalia was an accidental clash. Neither President Bush nor President Clinton intended to initiate hostilities in what had begun as a purely humanitarian effort. Even after President Clinton changed the goals, he was not seeking armed conflict of any size. That's why we were without armor when we needed it.

A country does not put the boot of the soldier down upon ground that it does not intend to fight upon. How many humanitarian missions start with guns and rocket launchers? Did you forget there was a Peace Corps?

You can say that the initial intentions were good; this is probably true. You keep trying to make Clinton take a fall that should rightly go to the misguided introduction of troops into Somalia that was entirely George HW Bush's decision out of some transparent need to blame Clinton for some shortcoming that was not there. It's hard to make the case that your armed soldiers and their helicopter gunships were there for idealistic notions. Countries don't survive for very long on idealistic notions.

The real reason for wanting to do something in Somalia now might stem from this issue:

From November 2005:

Somali 'mother ship' directs attacks by pirates by Daniel Howden
An upsurge in attacks on shipping off the Horn of Africa has fuelled belief that pirates may be using a "mother ship" prowling the Indian Ocean as a floating base. The Kenyan Seafarers' Association has appealed for more information on a larger vessel seen three times in Somalia's coastal waters. "We understand this is the vessel launching the speedboats that attack the victims," said Andrew Mwangura, the association's programme co-ordinator. "We are still trying to discover the name of this ship, its owner, its nationality and the identity of the crew." In the past week, at least five vessels have been targeted off the coast of the semi-anarchic Somalia, including a cruise liner attacked last Saturday by speedboat pirates who were armed with rocket-propelled grenade launchers and machineguns. The Seabourn Spirit, which was carrying 151 Western tourists, scared off the pirates after sustaining an RPG hit and gunfire. Passengers took pictures of the attackers who waved at them between volleys of fire. Most attacks off Somalia failed, but one more vessel has been commandeered, bringing to seven the number held with their crews. Mr Mwangura said the captured ships were registered in Thailand, Taiwan, Malta and Ukraine. The International Maritime Bureau (IMB) said the situation was out of control and confirmed a mother ship had been involved. It added that after two years of relative calm, 32 pirate attacks had been recorded off Somalia since mid-March, including raids on ships carrying supplies for the UN World Food Programme.

Instead of trying to stick the Somalia bungle on Clinton, how about we discuss what can be done to solve today's more pressing problem? Captain Sensible likes a good discussion of history but today's problems are a weight and a burden.

Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK

The Iraq campaign has been a big lie and terrible injustice against humanity. The problem with the west is that people don't understand that Muslims don't want to live in a democracy. When Muslims do have a democracy, such as palestine, it changes nothing.

...

Iraq has been a terrible failure, a war we all will be better off to soon forget. Kosovo on the other hand has been a success with little acknowledgement by the American press. We should be very thankful for our success in Kosovo and learn that America can succeed in police actions if done in coperation with many other nations. We can't cut and run from NATO and the U.N.

Who knew that there was an anti-Iraq war, anti-Bush, pro-multilateral military intervention, anti-Muslim demographic?

Posted by: Disputo on November 21, 2006 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK

It's all about balance. That's homeostasis.

Posted by: james on November 21, 2006 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK

Captain Sensible wrote:

"A country does not put the boot of the soldier down upon ground that it does not intend to fight upon. How many humanitarian missions start with guns and rocket launchers? Did you forget there was a Peace Corps?

You can say that the initial intentions were good; this is probably true. You keep trying to make Clinton take a fall that should rightly go to the misguided introduction of troops into Somalia that was entirely George HW Bush's decision out of some transparent need to blame Clinton for some shortcoming that was not there."
___________________

The majority of our military deployments since the 80s have been humanitarian in nature. Soldiers were required either because the security required it or the military had the skills necessary for the job ready when no one else did. The Peace Corps is not equipped for large projects, nor does it intentionally work in very hazardous areas.

It is not an assault of any kind on President Clinton to note that he modified the original mission. It merely reflects what happened.

The US military became involved in Somalia in Aug 1992 with the mission of moving humanitarian goods in support of UN relief. We beefed up our airlift presence in Cairo under the operation called PROVIDE RELIEF (US military ops names are all capitalized). In about Dec 92, loss of security led to an expansion of the UN mission to safeguard the humanitarian goods. We called that Operation PROVIDE HOPE and moved in troops. These two deployments were that last ones I helped to plan before I retired from active service. The Operations Orders for these ops mentioned nothing about nation building.

Sometime in early 1993, the UN Security Council changed the mission in Somalia to nation-building and President Clinton cooperated by changing the task of the deployed American troops and bringing in more special ops types. It was this operation that got involved in actual fighting in Mogadishu. That's what happened and one doesn't have to blame anyone in particular to learn the chronology.

____________________

Captain Sensible also wrote:

"Instead of trying to stick the Somalia bungle on Clinton, how about we discuss what can be done to solve today's more pressing problem? Captain Sensible likes a good discussion of history but today's problems are a weight and a burden."
_____________________

Uh. Yeah, I would imagine so.


Posted by: Trashhauler on November 21, 2006 at 3:31 PM | PERMALINK

Someone name of trashhauler>

Agree with some of your sentiments, forgot to write at length about the involvement of US troops in Haiti, which was a humanitarian mission that could have gone badly (and if one were to look at the state of Haiti today, that would be an inescapable conclusion.)

The involvement of US forces in the 1980s in Central America--there was nothing remotely "humanitarian" about it. Nor was it a "nation building" exercise. It was something altogether different, and confused by the Cold War thinking of the day.

The Operations Orders for these ops mentioned nothing about nation building.

Nor should it; the intention was the same. What significant difference is there between providing humanitarian relief and nation building? You stated that:

In about Dec 92, loss of security led to an expansion of the UN mission to safeguard the humanitarian goods.

I would submit that this is nation building writ large, and it occurred a month before Clinton was sworn in.

Captain Sensible knows people who swear up and down that events that occurred in the year of some people's lord 1992 AD were entirely the fault of William J Clinton; no amount of explaining that the man did not take office until 20 January 1993 at or around noon on that same day does not sway them from this tenaciously held belief.

Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 3:41 PM | PERMALINK

By giving Iraqis over $20,000,000 to rebuild Iraq infrastructure America is actually getting more money into the hands of potential terrorist and terrorist. Many terrorist operate businesses, such as construction, trades, and service industrys. The money America is using to beef up the Iraqi econonmy is making it more possible for terrorist to come to America. Now instead of terrorist having to ride in cargo container with beans and rice they can fly first class with caviar.

Posted by: james on November 21, 2006 at 3:41 PM | PERMALINK

james:

Isn't it more likely the Arab flying first class realizes the BENEFITS of the Great Satan?

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 3:43 PM | PERMALINK

Jeffery nope. You think the Great Satan is going to give them better than all eternity with 70 virgins in paradise?

Posted by: james on November 21, 2006 at 3:44 PM | PERMALINK

Of course not, but I expect them to finally wake-up and realize that promise is a lie.

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:00 PM | PERMALINK

You think the Great Satan is going to give them better than all eternity with 70 virgins in paradise?

Whereas in American fundie heaven you get 70 technical virgins....

Posted by: Stefan on November 21, 2006 at 4:27 PM | PERMALINK

Whereas in American fundie heaven you get 70 technical virgins....

Cool. I need someone to hook up my stereo....

Posted by: Disputo on November 21, 2006 at 4:40 PM | PERMALINK

Lou Dobbs is an idiot. He has dumb solutions.

Posted by: Andy on November 21, 2006 at 4:54 PM | PERMALINK

Can a solution be dumb?

If you skin a cat the wrong way, is it still skinned?

Posted by: Trashhauler on November 21, 2006 at 5:02 PM | PERMALINK

Is destroying a village to save it a dumb solution?

Posted by: Disputo on November 21, 2006 at 5:26 PM | PERMALINK

Was bombing Hiroshima and Nagaski?

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 5:31 PM | PERMALINK

I poop a lot and it makes me tired.

Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 5:41 PM | PERMALINK

Was bombing Hiroshima and Nagaski [a dumb solution]?

Yes. Not only dumb but cruel. A simple demonstration of the destructive capacity of the atom bomb would have been enough to convince my government to surrender.

You are just a sick, fearful person who is desperate for the deaths of anyone whom you find threatening.

Posted by: Victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on November 21, 2006 at 6:01 PM | PERMALINK

It should be noted that in somalia in 1993, in mogadishu, the rangers did capture the men they were after during black hawk down. The rangers did complete their mission. In Iraq we did go in to dethrone saddam and we did that. Now lets get the hell out!

Posted by: james on November 21, 2006 at 6:02 PM | PERMALINK

George said the idea was democracy for Iraq.

A majority of Iraqis want us out.

In keeping with the democratic principle of majority rule, we leave.

Heckuva job, Georgie.

Posted by: olds88 on November 21, 2006 at 7:11 PM | PERMALINK

Is destroying a village to save it a dumb solution?

Destroying the buildings to save the people was not a dumb solution. The Americans and British did it all over northern France, in WWII. And in Belgium and the Netherlands. And in Italy.

bombing the monastery at Montecassino was probably dumb, but it wasn't done to save the people.


the lessons of Viet Nam and how they apply to Iraq.

Here at Political Animal, the Vietnam war is the only war with useful parallels to Iraq.


According to the poll result, 68% of Iraqis want Americans to stay in Iraq at least 6 months. that does not imply that now is the time for us to leave.

Posted by: MatthewRMarler on November 21, 2006 at 9:51 PM | PERMALINK

According to the poll result, 68% of Iraqis want Americans to stay in Iraq at least 6 months. that does not imply that now is the time for us to leave.

It's good to see that you're so eager to respect Iraqi opinion. Let me ask you: 60% of Iraqis also believe that attacks on U.S. troops are justifiable; just what does that imply?

And what will it imply on that day when 80% of Iraqis think it's patriotic to attack American forces yet strangely only 40% want us to leave?

Posted by: trex on November 21, 2006 at 10:20 PM | PERMALINK

I personally think it would be best if we pulled out.

Abstinence is the best policy.

Posted by: Just Say No on November 21, 2006 at 10:31 PM | PERMALINK

"Was bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki [a dumb solution]?

Yes. Not only dumb but cruel. A simple demonstration of the destructive capacity of the atom bomb would have been enough to convince my government to surrender.

You are just a sick, fearful person who is desperate for the deaths of anyone whom you find threatening.
Posted by: Victim of Lies and Stupidity"

The Japanese didn't even surrender after the first Atomic bomb was dropped.

The Japanese monsters were the sick ones who were on a joyous (to them) mass killing and torture spree. And they would have used all the Atomic bombs they could make, if they had been smart enough to make any. And they (you?) have never even admitted any of Japan's horrendous crimes. Look at Japanese history books.

Posted by: Korean on November 21, 2006 at 10:54 PM | PERMALINK

When his side had Congress and Bush wasn't yet universally reviled, Matthew R Marler did a better impression of a reasonable person by occasionally criticizing GOP activities.

Since the election, he's jumped into create your own reality land. Ridiculous statements averse to reason, repeated over and over after being debunked time and again by other posters. Just like a traditional troll, in other words.

Nov. 7 is having some fascinating results.

Posted by: peter on November 22, 2006 at 12:06 AM | PERMALINK

According to the poll result, 68% of Iraqis want Americans to stay in Iraq at least 6 months. that does not imply that now is the time for us to leave.


First, your numbers are for Baghdad Shias, not Iraqis, and are an inaccurate interpretation: 68% want us to gradually withdraw over a period longer than 6 months but not longer than 2 years, while 80% want us to gradually withdaw over a period not longer than a year; these majorities, of course, overlap. For Iraqis more generally, as the linked summary and report state, 70% favor withdrawal within a year. As a secure withdrawal isn't something that can be done immediately, and as it requires some planning before it is executed at all, that means we need to be making the strategic decision to withdraw now, and beginning to actually implement that decision fairly shortly.

Also, 100% of Shi'a in Baghdad think the US presence is "provoking more conflict than it is preventing", and 60% support (as do 63% of Shi'a in Iraq) attacks on US-led forces in Iraq, which is also an indication that perhaps we don't belong there.

Posted by: cmdicely on November 22, 2006 at 12:48 PM | PERMALINK

Kosovo should be our big lesson on foreign police actions. We can't cut and run from the rest of the world and do pollice actions unilaterally.

Posted by: james on November 22, 2006 at 1:05 PM | PERMALINK

You are right,no we dont "belong there". Fact is I dont think they know who belongs there.But we are there.I think we had every right to throw Sadamn out,good!If we leave,The Polls in Six Mos. will read,"Boy did we ever Fuck up I wish the Americans hadn't left".We will look weak,cowardly,Paper Tiger ring any Bells?How many Terrorists will that create? Facts are if we leave Iraq, Iran and Syria will get to divide up the Iraqis.Iraq will be defenceless,do you think The U N will do a damn thing to stop it?How many innocents will be slaughterd then,will that matter to you?If we arm Iraq,and leave, they get Invaded,lose and Syria throws our shit back at us? Good plan.They would get to decide who lives or dies,Iraqi's wont be able to stop them.Iran is dangerous enough alone put Syria in the fray,not good.So OK, we let Syria and Iran have Iraq,we draw a line if they cross it we NUKE THEIR ASS?Oh that will work.Sooner or later it will come to that.We cant Re-deploy to Japan or Texas that just stupid.These people want us destroyed and dead.The sooner some of you figure this out the better.If you can trust Syria and Iran to do whats right,smoke another one.

Posted by: Glyn Lockhart on November 23, 2006 at 2:20 AM | PERMALINK

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