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   Dan Savage, the brilliant and foul-mouthed sex columnist, has become one of the most important ethicists in America. Are we screwed?
 The federal government is supposed to issue new rules about debt levels for students in for-profit colleges. In the meantime, the states are working on their own regulations.
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November 21, 2006
By: SETTLEMENTS....Peace Now, an Israeli advocacy group, has released a study saying that 39% of the land used by Israeli settlements in the West Bank is actually private Palestinian property. Which just goes to show how much I know. I never realized there was even a veneer of legality to the Israeli settlements, but it turns out that Israel has long claimed that the settlements are sited on land that was either purchased legally or was of uncertain ownership. The Peace Now report, however, seems to show pretty conclusively that that's not the case. It says:
An Israeli government spokesperson said they would comment on the report after they've had a chance to read it. But she added, "even if it turns out only 5 percent is private land, that is something we must take note of." Stay tuned. UPDATE: For a closer look at how this process works on the ground, check out Bernard Avishai's Monday op-ed in the LA Times. —Kevin Drum 3:13 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (173)
Comments
www.LouDobbs4President.com Petition Posted by: Lou Dobbs/2008 on November 21, 2006 at 3:15 PM | PERMALINKThe Palestinian/Israeli problem is the core of the MidEast Troubles. Without a solution here, there will be no solutions anywhere in the area. Without dwelling on history, I will go directly to the solution. First, Jerusalem becomes an International City and the Israeli capital is re-acknowledged as Tel Aviv. The Palestinians name their own capital. Thirdly, the area of Jerusalem is physically defined to form many functions : - The city will become host to most large-scale UN functions. - The area will be large enough to be physically defended and observe adjacent areas. The area will be a duty/tax free area, and the allocated ownership will be dispersed to the right to return Palestinians, the displaced Israeli colonists, and all who have lost their homes. Internal agriculture (because of crowded conditions) will also be eminent domained, the owners compensated and they and the land are included in the allocation. The Jerusalem area should be as small as possible, hence the agricultural exclusion. The land should be Israeli or Palestinian, as much as possible. Jerusalem will be a service, marketing and manufacturing zone. Each family unit will be prorated by size, then entered into a lottery for both a plot of residential land and a plot of commercial value. The allocations will be random to negate ghettoes and insularity. The residential and UN infrastructure will be internationally funded and built immediately. The residents will have startup funding of some sort. The residents of Jerusalem will have ownership, equity, involvement, and potential. They, and the UN personnel, will not abide terrorism, and will self-police effectively. The key to controlling terrorism is to remove the cause and the base. This will do both. This is a step towards World Peace. Posted by: Richard W. Crews on November 21, 2006 at 3:18 PM | PERMALINKCharlie, I really think you should ask to be assigned to a different blog. You've really worn out your welcome on this one. Posted by: craigie on November 21, 2006 at 3:28 PM | PERMALINKRichard Crews, I think there are no solutions that allow Israel to continue to exist as a state. The muslims have been very clear in this regard. Few in the West really grasp this, and the Israelis, who do understand it, are simply too obstinate to understand their country's ultimate fate. Strategically, Israel's position is completely untenable in the long-run. Sooner or later, it will be overrun. When that happens, if we are lucky, the Jews will simply return to the West where they ultimately belong. If we are unlucky, a nuclear cataclysm will be visited on many cities of the Middle East in Israel's death throes. Posted by: Yancey Ward on November 21, 2006 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINKRichard W. Crews: If we go with your plan, all Arab states including Iran and Syria will formally recognize Israel's right to exist? craigie: Fuck you. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 3:32 PM | PERMALINKI am proud to say that my Bubbe is one of those 4'8" blue-haired Jewish ladies schlepping around the desert with a can of green paint and demanding justice for the displaced Palestinians. She also has some pretty harsh words for the Arabs who have used the Palestinians as a political football for 50 years too, but I've hit on at least three rants with this one post. Posted by: Global Citizen on November 21, 2006 at 3:32 PM | PERMALINKSo how do they determine which portion of the settlemens legally belong to the Israelis? Posted by: DRR on November 21, 2006 at 3:33 PM | PERMALINKWhen that happens, if we are lucky, the Jews will simply return to the West where they ultimately belong. My favorite line in Borat is when his producer is arguing against going to California, and he says "Let's go back to New York. At least there aren't any Jews there." We relocate Israel to Montana. Problem solved. They string some wire around the place, it's just as holy as Jerusalem. Next. Posted by: craigie on November 21, 2006 at 3:33 PM | PERMALINKOh no, I'm hit! I'm going down! Tell my wife I love her! ARgghhh...... Posted by: craigie on November 21, 2006 at 3:35 PM | PERMALINKHold me till we die Craigie... Posted by: Global Citizen on November 21, 2006 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINKGet a room, you perverts! The rest of us are discussing important world events. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 3:38 PM | PERMALINKJeffery: I know the word "Israel" appears in this post, but keep thing civil anyway, OK? Posted by: Kevin Drum on November 21, 2006 at 3:41 PM | PERMALINKI don't quite understand how this is a surprise to anyone. A good starting place for understanding the settler's movement might be this article in the New Yorker. The author is not known for being a left-wing agitator; he served in the IDF, and used to work for TNR. (I doubt Peretz will ever hire him again after that article, though.) I think any honest discussion of how to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict needs to acknowledge that the settlers are batshit insane and need to be reeled in. Anyone who thinks a "Greater Israel" is even possible - let alone moral - is delusional. Posted by: Nat on November 21, 2006 at 3:41 PM | PERMALINKLook! You made Dad come in and yell at us! You are sooooo busted. Posted by: craigie on November 21, 2006 at 3:44 PM | PERMALINKHey, Kevin, as if there has been any LESS venom directed towards me on your blog? You, being atheist rather than Jewish, I can understand. No surprise however that Global Citizen's relatives are traitors to the cause as well. If she can't stand the heat, she can get out of the kitchen. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 3:44 PM | PERMALINKIsrael should try to recognize Palestine as a state and Muslims may then be willing to recognize Israel. Posted by: terry k on November 21, 2006 at 3:47 PM | PERMALINKFor those who don't know, Bubbe means "grandmother" in Yiddish. Global Citizen (and her "Major" husband) has openly admitted to treason here in the U.S., but now we learn she comes from a long line of Benedict Arnolds. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 3:48 PM | PERMALINKThe rest of us are discussing important world events. The rest of you, you mean. Kevin's comments lately are mainly a "conversation" between you, yourself, you, a couple of regulars, you, and you. Posted by: craigie on November 21, 2006 at 3:51 PM | PERMALINKterry k: Been there, done that. The original 1947 U.N. Partition Plan laid out the boundaries of two states - one Palestinian-Arab, one Jewish. The Jews accepted the plan; the Palestinians rejected it. In its acceptance, Israel formally recognized the state of Palestine. Your turn. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 3:52 PM | PERMALINKI always thought Texas would be a good place to put a new Israel; somewhere along the Rio Grande in sand and gila monster territory (Shoot, it's no worse than Israel). Hire Disney to build a new to-scale Jerusalem and, to sweeten the deal they could put up an archeologically correct temple with Solomon's throne room. Israeli energy and moxie is wasted in the middle east. Posted by: Dixie Myers on November 21, 2006 at 3:53 PM | PERMALINKcraigie: Please refer once again to my very first post to you in the above thread. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 3:53 PM | PERMALINKDixie Myers: How about we do that instead to Mecca? Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 3:55 PM | PERMALINKJeffery: I know the word "Israel" appears in this post, but keep thing civil anyway, OK? Just ban the useless coward, Kevin, he's a waste of cyberspace. Blog Host Kevin Drum>
The only fair thing to do is either return or compensate the Palestinians who have a legitimate claim to the ownership of the land that they have been displaced from. If it were feasible to share the land, so be it. The notion that they would share the land is pollyanna-ish, but possible only when the Palestianians are able to find leaders for themselves that are not craven thieves. The problem with Israel giving fair payment for the value of the land is that the Palestinian Authority would intervene and seize or tax the funds that should rightly go to the land owner. One could see where the government of Israel would reach a settlement over their settlements with the former owners; said arrangement could then be interfered with by a Palestinian Authority that would claim jurisdiction over the Palestinian citizen who is being compensated. If this could be prevented from happening, that would make it easier to pressure Israel to compensate the land owners; otherwise, Captain Sensible can see where the Israelis would withhold compensation in order to defund the Palestinian Authority and keep large sums of money from being misappropriated. And do not tempt Captain Sensible into a diatribe on the insanity of property zoning laws and their complexity; no, that is not a topic for polite discussion. Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 4:00 PM | PERMALINKJeffery.... Nice to see that GIYUS™ software is working properly. Maybe you could do a testimonial for them... Posted by: Rusty Pipes on November 21, 2006 at 4:00 PM | PERMALINKIf only I knew where Noted Historian David McCullough, He of Teh Pulitzer Prize, stood on this issue. Posted by: Matt on November 21, 2006 at 4:05 PM | PERMALINKThe original 1947 U.N. Partition Plan laid out the boundaries of two states - one Palestinian-Arab, one Jewish. The Jews accepted the plan; the Palestinians rejected it. In its acceptance, Israel formally recognized the state of Palestine. Your turn. Yeah, right. The UN offered to give 55% of Palestine to its Jewish minority, barely 30% of the population, many of whom were recent arrivals. I just can't imagine why the Palestinians didn't jump at the chance to give away over half of their homeland. Posted by: hed on November 21, 2006 at 4:06 PM | PERMALINKLOL, Matt -- I will have to check into that -- thanks for the reminder. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:07 PM | PERMALINKHey, Kevin, as if there has been any LESS venom directed towards me on your blog?
What, too ch-ch-ch-ch-icken? Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on November 21, 2006 at 4:07 PM | PERMALINKhed: I was simply responding to terry k's fales premise above: "Israel should try to recognize Palestine as a state and Muslims may then be willing to recognize Israel." Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:08 PM | PERMALINKIt is US military and economic aid that subsidizes the settlements and gurantees their security. I do not think they would exist with out this aid, so the American tax payer has some responsibility for their existence. Many settlers are US citizens. They will never be prosecuted like John Walker Lindh was, despite their combative behavoir. Posted by: Hostile on November 21, 2006 at 4:08 PM | PERMALINKWhatever you say, MeLoseBrain? / Little Hitler. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINKAs you can see, no one else is defending the Jews on this thread -- it wouldn't surprise me you want my kind canned though -- Hitler did too. Because I want you banned, I'm like Hitler??? You really are too stupid to breathe. I respect your fight for Israel, it's just we're in the US, and I'm more concerned with this country than yours. If you truley believe in it, go over there and fight for it. But you won't, because you're too gutlsee a coward to actually fight for something you believe in. I mean, why fight when you can send others in your stead, right, Charlie? Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on November 21, 2006 at 4:11 PM | PERMALINKHostile: And, I agree with U.S. military and economic aid that subsidizes Israel and gurantees their security. I do not think they would exist with out this aid either. If we go with any of the plans outlined above, do YOU think all Arab states including Iran and Syria will formally recognize Israel's right to exist? Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:11 PM | PERMALINKOh, you said "banned"? I thought you said "canned" as in chopped into little pieces and put into Charlie the Tuna cans. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINKWhatever you say, MeLoseBrain? / Little Hitler. No, you're wrong Charlie, I'm a lot bigger than Hitler. Care to find out, coward? Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on November 21, 2006 at 4:15 PM | PERMALINKLooking for a sane response; I am not interested in the current flame war. Isn't ALL of Ariel on Palestinian land? Isn't that why it's called the Occupied West Bank? Just getting into my cyber-bunker just to be safe. Posted by: LJ on November 21, 2006 at 4:18 PM | PERMALINKwhen the Palestianians are able to find leaders for themselves that are not craven thieves Proof is provided that Israelis and Americans have stolen Palestinian lands, but it is the Palestinian leaders who are craven thieves. Perhaps the Palestinian leadership would be much better if the American subsidized Israelis stopped assassinating and imprisoning them. Posted by: Hostile on November 21, 2006 at 4:21 PM | PERMALINKYou are wrong, Captain Teneille - I am a troll and a composter. Posted by: Jefferey Olmert on November 21, 2006 at 4:21 PM | PERMALINKThis is hardly news, Kevin. Noam Chomskys 1974 book, Peace in the Middle East laid out the theft of land from the Palestinians quite clearly. While many are dismissive of Chomsky, he is perhaps the most well-informed Western commentator on the plight of the Palestinians, as this article notes. If people, including so-called liberals, would just read Chomsky, they might actually learn something. Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on November 21, 2006 at 4:25 PM | PERMALINKLJ: If we turn over all of Ariel to Palestine, the rest of the Arab states including Iran and Syria will formally recognize Israel's right to exist? Hostile: Who was assassinating whom today? Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:25 PM | PERMALINKI read in the WSJ in the eighties -- in a letter, though -- that Israel got land by having the military fence off an Palestinian orchard, say, and then the Palestinian would lose it after a certain time because it was it was "abandoned." If he complained, he would just be shuffled around the bureaucracy, each department saying it was not its job to cover that particular aspect, etc. Fiendish. Anyone know is this scenario has truth or is just propaganda? I know I read it and where I read it. Maybe the Internet can beat the msm once again. Posted by: Bob M on November 21, 2006 at 4:25 PM | PERMALINKSomeone name of Bob M>
Captain Sensible asks the question: what of the destruction of personal property records, deeds and/or any titles or claims to land? Any bureaucracy can manage to achieve these ends. The party that controls said archives can often engage in nefarious practices. Vice/versa, they can also be wrongly accused of engaging in deception where there is none. Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 4:29 PM | PERMALINKI think there are no solutions that allow Israel to continue to exist as a state. The muslims have been very clear in this regard. Well, certainly some extremists have, though plenty of studies of, say, Palestinian opinion have shown that much support for extremist groups comes not because the extremists ideas about destruction of Israel are widely accepted, but because the methods of the extremists are perceived as the only ones that do anything to restrain the degree to which Israeli aggression against the Palestinian people succeeds. Now, this perception may be wrong, but it certainly important to recognize that it exists. ...Arab states including Iran... Iran is not an "Arab state" by any remotely sane definition. Muslim != Arab. Fine, nitpicker. Take out the word "Arab" and answer the question then. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:36 PM | PERMALINKThanks Chris. I was biting holes in my tongue over that one. I just refuse to acknowledge the existence of one among us, and making that correction would have de facto recognized that person. Posted by: Global Citizen on November 21, 2006 at 4:37 PM | PERMALINKMoshe Dayan, from an interview by Yediyot Aharonot correspondent Rami Tal: We would send a tractor to do some ploughing work in some spot in the demilitarized zone where farming activities were out of the question, and we knew in advance that the Syrians would start shooting. If they held their fire, we would instruct the tractor drivers to keep moving forward until the Syrians would lose their temper and start shooting. Then we would begin artillery shelling and, at a later stage, we would bring in the Air Force. This is what I did, and what Laskov and Tchera (chief of staff Zvi Tzur) also did, and what Yitzhak Rabin did as well. We thought then, and we continued to do so for a considerable while, that we could alter the armistice lines through military operations that would be just short of actual war. In other words, by seizing some land and holding it until the enemy would despair and let us keep it.Only one of many examples of how it really works. Posted by: cynic on November 21, 2006 at 4:39 PM | PERMALINK It's better when you don't contribute, Jew Traitor. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:39 PM | PERMALINKLJ: Isn't ALL of Ariel on Palestinian land? Isn't that why it's called the Occupied West Bank? Yes, but the 39% is privately owned Palestinian land, where we can name a particular Palestinian and say "He owns that piece of property." Posted by: anandine on November 21, 2006 at 4:41 PM | PERMALINKLet's not forget that most Israelis and American Jews oppose the settler movement as well. "The Palestinian/Israeli problem is the core of the MidEast Troubles." Just because the Arab world says so doesn't mean it's so. The root causes of the Muslim world's current dysfunctions lie much deeper than that. "I think there are no solutions that allow Israel to continue to exist as a state." I speak as a Jew: there will have to be another Holocaust before Jews ever give up Israel. Here's an analogous claim: there are no solutions that allow Taiwan to continue to exist as a state. Why? Because China won't ever leave Taiwan alone. This is of course absurd. The problem is with China, not Taiwan. And the problem is that too many take the grievances of the greater Arab world at face value. Most Israelis just want peace, and Israel has demonstrated that it's willing to negotiate for peace. It left the Gaza Strip, only to be showered with Qassams. I'm very critical of the Israeli government. Still, its responsibility is ultimately to provide security for the Israeli people, and it can't shirk that duty. So now the responsibility of offering peace lies with the Palestinian militants, who have yet to demonstrate that they are only fighting for their own liberation, and not the wholesale destruction of Israel. Posted by: benny on November 21, 2006 at 4:41 PM | PERMALINKSo Kevin, are you saying that Israeli needs to better protect the legal rights of Palestinians or are you suggesting we outright purchase large chunks of Iraq. BTW, these blog comments are completely unreadable. I would like a rewrite on my desk by 5PM. As a start, dump the commenters wearing underoos and jumping up and down on the bed. the last iranian president, khatami, had offered a plan wherein iran would recognize israel. surprise, surprise, the bush administration turned it down. can't pre-empt the next war, you know. Posted by: benjoya on November 21, 2006 at 4:43 PM | PERMALINKanandine - off topic, but have you ever been to the Belly Up? Perhaps to see a little San Diego band known as The Bastard Sons of Johnny Cash perchance? Posted by: Global Citizen on November 21, 2006 at 4:44 PM | PERMALINKIf we turn over all of Ariel to Palestine, the rest of the Arab [sic] states including Iran and Syria will formally recognize Israel's right to exist? Huh? Israel is pissed at Syria, so they get to steal Palestinian land? How does that work? If you make me mad, do I get to beat up your cousin, who just happens to be walking by? Israel needs to give back all stolen land. Syria, Iran, et al have no relevance here. Posted by: moderleft on November 21, 2006 at 4:46 PM | PERMALINKbenny: Careful using the word "Arab" around here. Mustn't offend the natives. cmdicely: The Qur'an does not define who is an Arab but there is a verse in the Qur'an stating "there is no difference between an Arab or Ajam, only by their God-fearingness" (meaning a non-Arab speaker). Sorry I was too inclusive for your delicate sensibilities, though, as I know there are Arab Jews too. Would you like a list of the countries (Arab or not) who currently refuse to formally recognize the State of Israel? Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:47 PM | PERMALINKThanks, anandine. Jeffrey, turn off the computer and go for a nice, long walk. Posted by: LJ on November 21, 2006 at 4:49 PM | PERMALINKDixie Myers: I always thought Texas would be a good place to put a new Israel Texas?! What kind of anti-semite are you? Personally, I always thought that a good place to relocate Israel would be here in NY. Of course, folks around here probably wouldn't even notice the change. Israelis might notice the snow. moderleft: Is "give back all stolen land" code-speak for abolish the State of Israel? Global Citizen / Traitor: Try to stay on topic please. benjoya: "What the Iranians wanted earlier was to be one-on-one with the United States so that this could be about the United States and Iran," said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who when Teheran faxed its proposal was serving as Bush's national security adviser. "Now it is Iran and the international community, and Iran has to answer to the international community. I think that's the strongest possible position to be in," Rice said. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:51 PM | PERMALINKLJ: Just as soon as you answer the question: If we turn over all of Ariel to Palestine, the rest of the Middle Eastern states including Iran and Syria will formally recognize Israel's right to exist? Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:53 PM | PERMALINKThe Qur'an does not define who is an Arab Muhammad defined it, which is essentially the same thing. Translating, "He who speaks Arabic, is an Arab". Posted by: enozinho (wetorture.com) on November 21, 2006 at 4:54 PM | PERMALINKIncidentally related, Scott Adams on atheists as the new gays and why he looks forward to voting for Bill Gates, http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2006/11/atheists_the_ne.html Posted by: cld on November 21, 2006 at 4:55 PM | PERMALINKIs "give back all stolen land" code-speak for abolish the State of Israel? Uh, no. It's code for "give back all stolen land." If a Palestinian has legal title to a piece of land, and the Israeli government forcibly takes it, that's pretty cut and dry theft. At the very least, you'd think they'd give fair compensation and claim eminent domain, but they're not even doing that, just taking it. That's theft, in any moral universe.
"It's better when you don't contribute, Jew Traitor." Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:39 PM Funny, you and the Trolletariat are the only ones that feel this way about GC, but the rest of us at this blog certainly find the debate far improved and far more intelligent and substantive when YOU do not contribute. Funny thing that. As for you calling GC a "Jew traitor", all you have shown by your use of such an offensive personal attack based on nothing other than your disagreement with her opinion on how the Israeli government handles the Palestinian issue is your own pettiness and smallness. Too bad that for you Israel=Jew and therefore any Jew that does not support unquestioningly Israeli policy on the Palestinian issue is a traitor to all of Judaism is a view only hard core Zionists (be they Jewish, Christian, secular in their reasons for supporting that extreme ideology) hold to. Incidentally, it is that linking of Israel=Jew that has done so much to increase anti-Semitism towards Jews in the world, since it is the actions of Israel they are being blamed for supporting because the Zionist movement in its various forms have spent the last few decades making the two (Israel and Jew) synonymous despite the reality being this is a false equivalence and always was. Finally, GC has demonstrated her ability to reason from the reality based world, she has shown that she knows how to serve in the military, and she has shown that she is far more credible and worth listening to than anything that has ever come from you Chuckles. Indeed, she is one of the better contributors I have ever seen at this blog in my years of commenting here, and that you can only come back with such bilious personal smears underscores just how little your writings need to be considered. Indeed, I only responded because of my respect for her work, not because I take anything you say about anyone as being remotely credible/worth considering. You destroyed your credibility in each of your various sock puppets Chuckles, and all your claiming otherwise is seen by the majority of us as evidence of your delusional state and further basis to have nothing but contempt and derision and mockery as fitting rejoinders to your various smears and lies. Posted by: Scotian on November 21, 2006 at 4:56 PM | PERMALINKWhatever, enozinho. Allow me to be specific then. The following countries do not formally recognize the State of Israel: Africa : Algeria, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, Guinea, Libya, Mali, Morocco, Niger, Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (Western Sahara) Cuba (we really need to just take the Castros out) East Asia : North Korea Southwest Asia : Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Oman, Palestinian National Authority, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, United Arab Emirates, Yemen Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:57 PM | PERMALINKSorry I was too inclusive for your delicate sensibilities
Jeffery, two points about your comments on the 1947 partition agreement.
moderleft: I was just asking an honest question, especially since most of those calling for the destrcution of Israel still claim ALL of the land was stolen. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 4:59 PM | PERMALINKMarky: And, some Native Americans still think their land was stolen too. So? Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 5:02 PM | PERMALINKThe original 1947 U.N. Partition Plan laid out the boundaries of two states - one Palestinian-Arab, one Jewish. The Jews accepted the plan; the Palestinians rejected it. In its acceptance, Israel formally recognized the state of Palestine. Your turn. Nope. The 1947 plan did not set up a Palestinian State. It assigned the West Bank to Jordan,and Gaza to Egypt. These states did not recognise Israel.They both do now. So why can't the Palestinians have their own state? Because of decisions of the Egyptian and Jordanian Govts? Does that make any sense or have any relevance to what happens now?
Israel is a terrorist state founded by terrorists. Try Googling "King David Hotel" Jeffrey. Posted by: CDWard on November 21, 2006 at 5:03 PM | PERMALINKThat's right, CDWard -- King George thought the colonists were terrorists too -- history is written by the victorious, my friend. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 5:04 PM | PERMALINKwas just asking an honest question, especially since most of those calling for the destrcution of Israel still claim ALL of the land was stolen. What makes this story interesting, though, is that it should be fairly easy to separate this land theft from any larger existential questions regarding Israel. The lands cited in the article and report belong to individual human beings, not some wider "Palestine" or wider "Arab-Muslim world." Even the most ardently pro-Israeli partisan should be able to admit that theft is theft, and an injustice. Posted by: moderleft on November 21, 2006 at 5:05 PM | PERMALINK"even if it turns out only 5 percent is private land, that is something we must take note of." The venom being spewed on this thread aside, it is refreshing to hear this kind of statement coming from the Israeli government. It's rare that debate on this subject isn't boiled down to a rhetorical pissing contest. Peace Now's factual approach is also refreshing. Clearly the extremists on both sides would prefer to keep this debate in the gutter. Posted by: enozinho (wetorture.com) on November 21, 2006 at 5:06 PM | PERMALINKMy guess is that the Charlie/Chuck/Thomas/Jeffery troll was laid off after the election and can no longer afford his medication. For some reason his only sense of meaning now comes from spending all his time posting on this blog. First: the Palestinians were not under any obligation to accept this partition, imposed from outside, which they felt stole land from them. As an aside, I wonder what makes the proponents of a forcible, imposed partition of Iraq think that that will work out any better than the partition of Palestine. Posted by: cmdicely on November 21, 2006 at 5:08 PM | PERMALINKshe has shown that she knows how to serve in the military Well, then GC knows far more than Charlie, who thinks the military are board pieces in a game of Risk. Charlie is nothing but a gutless coward, and his attacks on GC are a perfect example of that. It's easy to be tough behind a cyber-curtain, Charlie, and yet you still insist on picking on girls. You are a gutless punk coward, and Scotian is right, this board is a far better place when you are not around. Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on November 21, 2006 at 5:09 PM | PERMALINKAlan: Palestine has it's own interim State -- you know, the one with Hamas Prime Minister, Ismail Haniya, calling for the destruction of Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority#Officials Andy: That "idiot" will be the next President of the United States. Disputo: Wrong. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 5:10 PM | PERMALINKMeLoseBrain?: And, I think this board is better when you and Global Citzen / Traitor are not around. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 5:11 PM | PERMALINKI wonder what makes the proponents of a forcible, imposed partition of Iraq think that that will work out any better than the partition of Palestine. Thankfully George Bush learned that the Iraqis are Sunnis and Shia's. It's a good thing they aren't Arabs, or we'd be fucked. Posted by: enozinho (wetorture.com) on November 21, 2006 at 5:11 PM | PERMALINKGlobal Citizen: anandine - off topic, but have you ever been to the Belly Up? Perhaps to see a little San Diego band known as The Bastard Sons of Johnny Cash perchance?, I have been there but not lately (I now live well south and east of there) and not to see that band. I pretty much only go there to hear blues, and as I get older I am less aware of new bands. There's also the relationship between age and volume. I can't take serious noise as well as I could a few decades ago, and the Belly Up is seriously noisy. Not to mention the relationship between age and bedtime. If a band starts its first set at 9 p.m., I'm not gonna hear it play. Still I just googled the Bastard Sons of Johnny Cash, and if I can find an mp3 of them around, I'll listen to it and see if I should add them to my list of folks to go to the Belly Up for. Thanks for the tip. Posted by: anandine on November 21, 2006 at 5:14 PM | PERMALINKI wonder what makes the proponents of a forcible, imposed partition of Iraq think that that will work out any better than the partition of Palestine. Well, for starters, the proposed partition of Iraq doesn't include a majority chunk for Europeans to resettle. Next. And, I think this board is better when you and Global Citzen / Traitor are not around. Oh, good comeback, Charlie! Keep your day job, oh that's right, the RNC fired your sorry ass after your repukelicans got their sorry asses kicked in the election. Sucks to be you, Charlie. Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on November 21, 2006 at 5:14 PM | PERMALINK"That's right, CDWard -- King George thought the colonists were terrorists too -- history is written by the victorious, my friend." Note how Jeffrey doesn't even try to deny that Israel was founded by terrorists. So does that mean when the Palestinians are victorious they won't be terrorists anymore also? Posted by: CDWard on November 21, 2006 at 5:15 PM | PERMALINKJeffery, your view of Israel's legitimacy is "might makes right". We get it. MeLoseBrain?: I have never worked for the RNC, liar. CDWard: Once we are all converted to Islam, of course they will not be considered terrorists. Marky: You go away. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 5:19 PM | PERMALINKI think its more likely that Jeffery is working for OBL, trying to make Israel look bad by portraying them as bellicose warmongers who have no desire for peace. Posted by: marky on November 21, 2006 at 5:20 PM | PERMALINKIt's looking more and more like Charlie/Thomas/Chuck/Jeffery is Michael Richards. Jeffery=Charlie? Mark Stewart is definitely the Alpha Bastard, and they fucking rock. Definitely worth adding to the list. I have a pretty awesome blues collection from my two years at the Grand Emporium when I was burned out on medicine. I'm defiinitely what you could safely call a 1-4-5ist. That 's where I know the Sons from. Posted by: Global Citizen on November 21, 2006 at 5:23 PM | PERMALINKyou reject concepts of fair play, justict, redress, as well as the inherent rights of any people except the Israelis. Jeffery's bigotry is much more specific. I doubt that he has any use for Arab Muslim Israelis. I appreciate that stop feeding the troll handle, whoever he is. Jimmy Carter has a good book just out called Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. Kind of interesting that a Christian guy has never let his religion filter out clarity, reality, and fairness. Well worth a read. Posted by: little ole jim from red country on November 21, 2006 at 5:25 PM | PERMALINKJeffery is probably one of those evangelicals who wants to make sure there are enough Jews alive to salt the pot that is the boiling lake into which Jesus will lovingly toss the non-believers when he returns. Posted by: Marky on November 21, 2006 at 5:26 PM | PERMALINKJimmy Carter can bite me too -- just as soon as he stops running from that killer bunny rabbit. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 5:27 PM | PERMALINKRichard W. Crews: The Palestinian/Israeli problem is the core of the MidEast Troubles. benny: Just because the Arab world says so doesn't mean it's so. The root causes of the Muslim world's current dysfunctions lie much deeper than that. Well benny, I'm glad that at least one other person agrees with me. As much as it's a tragedy, and there's sins aplenty on both sides, in the context of the Middle East as a whole, let alone the world, the Palestinian/Israeli problem is just a tempest in a teapot. A cause clbre to distract people from other problems. Posted by: alex on November 21, 2006 at 5:29 PM | PERMALINKJeffery is about the worst spokesperson for Israel I have seen in many a troll. Jeffery, you're fired. Seriously, Israel is starting to lose with many more people on the moral front, and it lost in relative terms on the military front in the summer. Does not look good. Posted by: Bob M on November 21, 2006 at 5:31 PM | PERMALINK"And, some Native Americans still think their land was stolen too. So?" So, we should turn Las Vegas over to the Palistinians, maybe? Posted by: PetervE on November 21, 2006 at 5:32 PM | PERMALINK"...it should be fairly easy to separate this land theft from any larger existential questions regarding Israel." True. But these larger existential questions you speak of are always one-sided: that is to say, it's always those who question Israel's right to exist who first bring it up. The pro-Israeli partisans you speak of are simply defending that right. "...the proposed partition of Iraq doesn't include a majority chunk for Europeans to resettle." By 1947, Jews already outnumbered Arabs in British Palestine. Posted by: benny on November 21, 2006 at 5:32 PM | PERMALINKAlex, Bob M: Who said I was Jewish? Maybe Watcher and I are al Qaeda plants stirring up trouble to make sure the Democrats finally stop all support to Israel. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 5:34 PM | PERMALINK"The Palestinian/Israeli problem is the core of the MidEast Troubles." Just because the Arab world says so doesn't mean it's so. The root causes of the Muslim world's current dysfunctions lie much deeper than that. More likely that the root cause is Jewish nationalists of European descent who are so bigoted that they don't even bother distinguishing between the following three concepts: 1. the Middle East Really, dude, get over yourself. Peace will only come when Zionists realize that non-Jews, including Arabs and Muslims, are human beings on par with themselves -- of course, at that point they will cease to be Zionists. Marky: While I agree that the Arab world has many problems besides Israel, don't you think that the Israeli-Palestinian problem is a large cause of their bellicosity today? I think it's an excuse for their bellicosity. Do most non-Palestinian Arabs, let alone Iranians, really give a rat's ass about the Palestinians? As others have noted, it's a lot like China on Taiwan. It's of no real importance to them, but it's a great excuse to drum up some anger. Posted by: alex on November 21, 2006 at 5:38 PM | PERMALINKit is refreshing to hear this kind of statement coming from the Israeli government. I know. I love it when they say things like that. It's more than refreshing. It's soothing. I just wish they'd get someone from the west wing to expand their repertoire. The Israeli government expressed regret [if UN soldiers died insert "and deep condolencese"] for/over the civilian deaths/deaths of women and children in the incident. An Israeli army representive would not confirm or deny reports that anti-personnel tank rounds/cluster bombs/phosphorous rounds were used in the operation. "We have launched an IDF probe to determine whether the deaths could have been avoided/were the result of crossfire from militants/explosives being stored in civilian areas/resulted from an accident/human error/instrument malfunction". Israeli government spokeswoman -- says the country's army has suspended --- into --- while it investigates what -- called a tragedy. But -- says much of the blame lies with -- who continue to --. More Palestinian -- occurred on [insert day of week representing yesterday]. Posted by: B on November 21, 2006 at 5:38 PM | PERMALINK"...it should be fairly easy to separate this land theft from any larger existential questions regarding Israel." True. But these larger existential questions you speak of are always one-sided: that is to say, it's always those who question Israel's right to exist who first bring it up. The pro-Israeli partisans you speak of are simply defending that right. But by linking clear cases of injustice, such as this land theft, to larger questions of Israel's existince, Israel's would-be defenders only succeed in undermining the moral authority of their position. Just because an action is committed by your "side" doesn't mean you should defend it. For the same reason Americans shouldn't defend torture of detainees, or that Muslims shouldn't defend Bin Laden, Israelis and their allies should not be dfending theft. Alex, how very colonial of you to know why the natives are restless. Perhaps when they say they are enraged by the treatment of the Palestinians we should take them at their word. Posted by: Marky on November 21, 2006 at 5:40 PM | PERMALINKMarky: how very colonial of you to know why the natives are restless It's in my blood. British ancestry you know. Perhaps when they say they are enraged by the treatment of the Palestinians we should take them at their word. I rarely take people at their word. Actions speak louder. Posted by: alex on November 21, 2006 at 5:44 PM | PERMALINKWell I have to go for a while. Sedition and treason don't commit themselves, you know. Posted by: Global Citizen on November 21, 2006 at 5:47 PM | PERMALINKyes, jeffrey, we certainly are in the strongest possible position wrt iran. we couldn't let it "be about" the US and iran. christ you're an idiot. quoting condi "no one could have imagined" rice, oddly enough, doesn't make you appear any more intelligent. Posted by: benjoya on November 21, 2006 at 5:49 PM | PERMALINKHere is a map of the land mass currently known as the United States. The 2 teeny little areas shaded yellow are Plymouth settlement and Jamestown settlement. The areas shaded red (99% of the map) are land occupied by native American tribes. These figures are based on settler diaries from 1690. Should the US government return the shaded red areas back to Native American tribes? Who knows. Opinions differ. Sincerely, Kevin Drum Posted by: Frequency Kenneth on November 21, 2006 at 5:49 PM | PERMALINKModerleft: You misunderstood me. Just so you know, I'm very critical of the Israeli government on these issues, as I previously noted. But my original point was that it is Israel's critics, not its defenders, who are the ones who link these issues with the larger questions of Israel's existence. Disputo: I use Arab and Muslim interchangeably when they are mostly interchangeable. In the case of Israel/Palestine, yes. If I were talking about Iran or Indonesia or Pakistan, I would not be so ignorant, I assure you. Also, I am not European. I am of Near Eastern descent. "Peace will only come when Zionists realize that non-Jews, including Arabs and Muslims, are human beings on par with themselves." Israelis DO want peace. They are just not willing to sacrifice their security to get it. And don't forget, they already gave up the Gaza Strip, in the name of peace. Yet, this only emboldened the Palestinian militants to step up the violence. Like I said, I am very critical of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians... but objectively speaking, it is the Palestinian leadership, not Israel, that is more in the wrong at this point. Posted by: benny on November 21, 2006 at 5:55 PM | PERMALINKWell that's interesting. For years, I've heard right-wing Israelis make the analogy of white Americans screwing the Native Americans out of their land. Any bigotry built into that you suppose? Posted by: little ole jim from red country on November 21, 2006 at 5:56 PM | PERMALINKLet's not forget that most Israelis and American Jews oppose the settler movement as well. You know, benny, it would be nice just once if people like you actually expressed those criticisms of Israel in a way that made a difference to its conduct. I certainly know that many American Jews are indeed sincerely opposed to the settlements. But where is the important Jewish organization that makes that criticism public and vocal -- the only REAL way the criticism might conceivably be effective? Really, if you and major Jewish organizations can't walk the walk when it comes to criticizing Israel's conduct on issues like the settlements, how about you all stop talking the talk? No one wants to listen to your pompous, pseudo-moral, better-than-thou phoniness. Posted by: frankly0 on November 21, 2006 at 5:58 PM | PERMALINKThe venom being spewed on this thread aside, it is refreshing to hear this kind of statement coming from the Israeli government.
The Israeli government being such a fine specimen of fairness and justice, of course. Posted by: frankly0 on November 21, 2006 at 6:04 PM | PERMALINKmany American Jews are indeed sincerely opposed to the settlements. Posted by: Hostile on November 21, 2006 at 6:19 PM | PERMALINK"But where is the important Jewish organization that makes that criticism public and vocal -- the only REAL way the criticism might conceivably be effective?" Uh... wasn't the whole point of this forum to discuss an article about an Israeli advocacy group called Peace Now? Trust me, I feel no differently from all the American Muslims out there who feel helpless about all the violence and hatred being propagated in the name of their faith. Let's not forget, there are two sides to this conflict... right? Posted by: benny on November 21, 2006 at 6:28 PM | PERMALINKSorry, benny, but they don't want to listen to your pompous, pseudo-moral, better-than-thou phoniness. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 6:35 PM | PERMALINKYou know, if I just . . . quit . . . comments cold turkey, this thread, and the other ruined threads with Jeffery and his sibs, such as Thomas1, will be the reason. And I am SOOO tired of any criticism of Israel being immediately ramped up into the return of the frigging 3rd Reich. The actions of the Israeli gov't are not the product of divine inspiration. It is possible to be supportive of Israel, a good Jew AND sympathetic to the rights of Palestinians. Posted by: Wendy on November 21, 2006 at 6:38 PM | PERMALINKNo, it's not, Wendy. "Really, if you and major Jewish organizations can't walk the walk when it comes to criticizing Israel's conduct on issues like the settlements, how about you all stop talking the talk? No one wants to listen to your pompous, pseudo-moral, better-than-thou phoniness." Posted by: frankly0 on November 21, 2006 at 5:58 PM | PERMALINK "The Israeli government being such a fine specimen of fairness and justice, of course." Posted by: frankly0 on November 21, 2006 at 6:04 PM | PERMALINK Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 6:41 PM | PERMALINK"Jeffery"? Is that you Goldstein? You got bored over at turtlefuckers anonymous and took over Kevin's comment section? Posted by: HeavyJ on November 21, 2006 at 6:43 PM | PERMALINKUh... wasn't the whole point of this forum to discuss an article about an Israeli advocacy group called Peace Now? As the context of my remark would suggest, I was intending to be speaking about major American Jewish organizations, not Israeli ones -- clearly in Israel itself there are organizations genuinely critical of the government. Posted by: frankly0 on November 21, 2006 at 6:47 PM | PERMALINKHeavyJ: My name's Berman. benny: Just ignore franklyO -- she's a bit daft. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 6:54 PM | PERMALINKFrankly0: There are certainly liberal American Jewish organizations. The American Jewish Congress comes to mind. If you're talking about ones devoted solely to Palestinian interests though... probably not. We Jews are self-absorbed like that. Anyway, I was insinuating an argument which I will now make more forcefully. "Really, if you and major Jewish organizations can't walk the walk when it comes to criticizing Israel's conduct on issues like the settlements, how about you all stop talking the talk?" I'm not trying to be anti-Muslim, but since you're obviously more sympathetic to the Palestinian viewpoint, maybe this analogy is one that will resonate more clearly: I hear moderate Muslims condemning terrorism conducted in their name all the time. Yet I don't see the anti-Western anger and hatred abating. So they obviously are not "walking the walk". By your logic, does that mean they should stop "talking the talk"? Posted by: benny on November 21, 2006 at 7:19 PM | PERMALINKA solution and a proposal-- It appears that K Drum cannot ban the IP of the disrupter troll. And that's not the end of the world. What K Drum could do is to edit the text of the entries made that are disruptive and thereby steal the thunder of the disrupter troll. I will E-mail Mr. Drum with this proposal and if enough of you E-mail Mr. Drum (politely, of course), perhaps that will solve the issue. Captain Sensible wonders if the parents were abusive or neglectful; in either case, no one did their job with this disrupter troll. Posted by: Captain Sensible on November 21, 2006 at 7:25 PM | PERMALINKCharlie, you have been posting on this thread continuously for over 4 hours. And this is a site where nobody likes you! I truly feel sorry for you. Get a life. Go out and find a hobby, something. Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on November 21, 2006 at 7:26 PM | PERMALINKIt wasn't long ago that I decided that the only way to solve this conflict is to use every nuclear weapon in the US arsenal to make both Israel and Palestine into an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland for the next 22,000 years. Then they'll finally shut the fuck up and stop arguing over it. Bonus points: Christianists in the US will stop trying to make US foreign policy subordinate to Israel's needs. Next on the agenda: bioengineer an unstoppable bacterium that eats petroleum, and release it into the world's major oil deposits. Posted by: Impeach.Remove.Convict.Punish.Justice on November 21, 2006 at 7:28 PM | PERMALINKCaptain Sensible: I doubt K-Y Drum wants to dedicate that much time to such a task. Good luck though. MeLoseBrain?: It's not that hard to keep a window open and check back every so often -- there are other people who post more than I do, but thanks for the concern, no need to worry -- it's called multi-tasking. OBF: And here I thought my "modest proposals" were out there?! No one is going to turn Israel and Palestine into an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland -- even Hiroshima has rebounded -- as of 2003, the city had an estimated population of 1,136,684. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 7:42 PM | PERMALINKI think Israel should really consider giving Palestinians the right to self determination along with viable property. Maybe then Arabs will begin to recognize the existence of Israel. Posted by: terry k on November 21, 2006 at 7:44 PM | PERMALINKYa know, Jeffery, simply telling me "nuh-uh-uh!" and quoting some other dude who is disenchanted with actions taken by the Israeli gov't is not all that persuasive. It is not up to you to define what a good Jew is. I stand by my statement, and I applaud Global Citizen's granny, who appears to believe in everyone's human rights. And I wish you'd find something else to do besides render Kevin's comment threads unreadable. I am now going to make a strenuous effort not to feed you for a while, and suggest that others attempt the same. Posted by: Wendy on November 21, 2006 at 7:52 PM | PERMALINK"I think Israel should really consider giving Palestinians the right to self determination along with viable property. Maybe then Arabs will begin to recognize the existence of Israel." They did that. Israel left the Gaza Strip last year. The Palestinians responded by firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel. Posted by: benny on November 21, 2006 at 8:09 PM | PERMALINKBut, don't you see, benny? All they want is just a couple more thousand square miles (8,550 sq. miles, to be exact). By firing rockets, they were in fact recognizing the existence of Israel (as a target ; ) Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 8:17 PM | PERMALINKFor comparison's sake, New Jersey is 8,721 sq. miles -- would that stop all of the fighting in the Middle East -- we could relocate everyone from Newark and Princeton to New York and just rename that New Jews-ey. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 8:58 PM | PERMALINK
the fake Jefferys. Damn you all! Lots of Love, The Real Jeffery Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 9:01 PM | PERMALINK
The one and only Jeffery. Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 9:05 PM | PERMALINKSo, the Jeffery at 5:43 PM was the REAL one? Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 9:21 PM | PERMALINKSo to sum up the thread: Israel has been taking land that doesn't belong to it using underhanded methods, Charlie/Jeffery is particularly psychotic today and as dense as ever, and the peace process in the Middle East doesn't have a chance until extremists on both sides of the issue settle down and let go of their hatred and fear. Posted by: trex on November 21, 2006 at 9:38 PM | PERMALINK"Jeffery": we could relocate everyone from Newark and Princeton to New York Fuck you. If you want to relocate Jew Jerseyites (or whatever you call those things) you can take 'em in your own state. We don't want 'em here. Tell 'em to take their toxic waste with them too, and maybe the Israelis will move their. New Jersey, "The Kosher State"? Q. How come NY got all the lawyers, and Jersey got all the toxic waste dumps? A: Jersey got to choose first. Posted by: alex on November 21, 2006 at 9:39 PM | PERMALINKAnd here I thought my "modest proposals" were out there?! No one is going to turn Israel and Palestine into an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland -- even Hiroshima has rebounded -- as of 2003, the city had an estimated population of 1,136,684. Not enough of the right type of device. Posted by: Impeach.Remove.Convict.Punish.Justice on November 21, 2006 at 9:49 PM | PERMALINK
Even the real ones!! The Jeffery has spoken! Jeffery Posted by: Jeffery on November 21, 2006 at 10:13 PM | PERMALINKWhy would any Palestinian land be legal? I thought that when they attacked the Israelis, Israel got the land as spoils of war. I don't understand any claim Palestinians have to owning it....? I guess that is why I have not understood why Israel doesn't just throw out the Palestinians, as all the other arab counries did in the past. Posted by: Clem on November 21, 2006 at 10:53 PM | PERMALINKThere are certainly liberal American Jewish organizations. The American Jewish Congress comes to mind. I went to the American Jewish Congress web site, and, suffice it to say, I read not a SINGLE word critical of Israel and its policies, including anything having to do with settlements. I DID see all kinds of scaremongering regarding the intentions and actions of Hamas, the terrorists, etc., as if they represent a genuine existential threat to Israel, and pleas that people fax their Senators on behalf of Israel. Really, does this "liberal" organization represent the best possible example you can come up with of a major American Jewish organization that allows itself to be "critical" of Israel's policies? If so, then, really, you've proved my point. And why you or anyone else would call such an organization "liberal" is beyond me. Such organizations may aspire to the noble title of "liberal", with all the fine things that it signifies, but they represent the most primitive and reactionary of interests and appeals. For more than a thousand years God's Chosen People have battled the One True Religion with sometimes hostility and sometimes support of the One Way to Salvation. What a cancer on the world, ARE these monotheistic religion! Posted by: James of DC on November 21, 2006 at 11:35 PM | PERMALINKWhat a cancer on the world, ARE these monotheistic religion! Can't say I find the polytheistic ones that much less annoying. Posted by: peter on November 21, 2006 at 11:55 PM | PERMALINKAt least with the polytheistic ones, you have a better chance of finding a God that is to your liking. Posted by: Counterfactual on November 22, 2006 at 1:58 AM | PERMALINKIs there anyone serious in the house? Frankly0: Wait, what? The burden of proof is on me to prove that there are American Jewish organizations out there that can be critical of Israel? You must certainly know that many Jews are critical of the Palestinian occupation. Isn't that enough? You want us to organize and advocate on Palestine's behalf? I thought that's what Palestinian and Muslim advocacy groups are for. Why is it always the Jews who are constantly asked to bend over backwards to prove that we're not sadistic, murderous thugs? Just a few days ago, a rocket attack on a militant leader's house was called off by the IDF because Palestinian civilians gathered around the house to form a human shield. Let's see how effective a human shield of Israeli civilians would work against a Palestinian attack on an Israeli cafe. "I DID see all kinds of scaremongering regarding the intentions and actions of Hamas, the terrorists, etc., as if they represent a genuine existential threat to Israel..." Um yes, they DO represent a genuine threat. Israel is a tiny sliver of land the size of New Jersey. Hamas has never renounced its resolve to destroy Israel. Anyway, isn't that the whole point of their existence? To be a legitimate threat to Israel, and not an imaginary one? And if you want to know what Israelis are up against in the court of public opinion, read Betsy's post. Posted by: benny on November 22, 2006 at 2:51 AM | PERMALINKRichard W. Crews: I'm serious. The official reason given for Osama bin Laden's funding of terrorist attacks, pretext or not, was the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War, not Israel. Also, I think the point was already made in this forum that the Israel/Palestine conflict is mostly a diversion that draws Muslim anger away from the failures of their societies caused by more deeply rooted problems. Basically, the question is, which do you believe: 1. Muslims are too busy feeling outraged by the Israel/Palestine conflict to bother making efforts to make their own communities more peaceful and prosperous. or 2. The corruption and totalitarianism of certain Muslim regimes, combined with an austere, authoritarian religious culture, make it difficult for Muslims in those countries to prosper and live comfortably. Then, they direct their anger at Israel, because it is easier/safer than criticizing their own political and religious leaders. Pick one. Posted by: benny on November 22, 2006 at 3:11 AM | PERMALINKBenny, I pick #2. But the fact that Arab countries and governments have been screwing up big time and blame Israel "because it is easier" does not excuse the fact that Israel has taken over a lot of Arab land illegally -- I am talking after 1967. In other words, if I steal something from a lazy bum who is no good and beats his wife I am still a thief. Posted by: JS on November 22, 2006 at 3:28 AM | PERMALINKJS: I agree. And most Israelis do too. But when Palestinian militants fire missiles into your country AFTER you dismantle the illegal settlements and leave, it shakes your faith in their commitment to peace, which then makes you question the wisdom of disengagement. Israelis are like Americans or anyone else. They want peace, but they're also not stupid. Your own security is more important than justice for your enemy. And as the saying goes, fool me once... It's just that when these things happen, it always turns into an ugly anti-Israel diatribe. Rarely does it get acknowledged that Israelis themselves are the ones most closely monitoring their government for improper activities. I'm not directing that at you, I'm just explaining why I feel the need to keep coming back to this forum. Posted by: benny on November 22, 2006 at 3:52 AM | PERMALINKEh... one last comment, and then I'm pulling myself away from this forum forever. James of DC: Of course you're being facetious, but that's still an inaccurate statement. For almost all of history, it was Christianity battling Islam and persecuting Judaism. Traditionally, Muslims held a very enlightened view of Jews, whom they considered "People of the Book" (i.e., of the Abrahamic faith). Jews were valued and welcomed in the Muslim world for their mercantile skills. Posted by: benny on November 22, 2006 at 4:07 AM | PERMALINKBenny, I can pick both - unfortunately. Both. At the same time. Don't you think both are happening, or did you just make up some hypothetical scenario? My plan, the second post, addressed the Right of Return, the future cash flow, the water problem, among others. Eh... I couldn't sleep, so I came back. Richard W. Crews, I'll just say this now, you seem like a genuinely thoughtful guy, giving equal consideration to both sides. But here is the problem with your rosy scenario: it doesn't take into consideration human nature or self-interest. Let's say the Israelis agree to share Jerusalem and to pull back to pre-1967 borders. What do they get in return? The promise of peace and security from the Palestinians? That's not worth the paper it's printed on, and every Jew and sane person on earth knows that. I hate to keep going back to Israel's pullout from Gaza and Palestine's subsequent militant response, but let's face it: it proved (along with the Lebanon pullout) what many suspected all along, that these militants want to destroy Israel, not make peace with it. The doves look like complete idiots in Israel right now, and for good reason. Once bitten, twice shy. Israelis will not extend another olive branch for a generation. You don't have to see them as superheroes or villains to understand that. You just have to see them as human. "Benny, I can pick both - unfortunately." Really? Because choice #1 is so incredibly ridiculous when you spell it out, even if it is the crux of the pro-Palestinian argument. Let's imagine the most extreme scenario, the Israelis leave and Palestinians get all the land. Now what? Iranians stop hanging people for being homosexual? http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=9214 Saudis stop punishing women for the crime of being raped? http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-saudi-justice,0,1011165.story?track=mostviewed-homepage You're terribly misguided if you think any one of the current problems of the Muslim world, outside of Palestine, has to do with Israel. Posted by: benny on November 22, 2006 at 7:18 AM | PERMALINKBenny, you can't garauntee peace and security. no nation in this entire world has that, not even the US. What right does Israel have to something nobody else has? You can't demand peace before you negotiate for peace, it's either insane or dishonest. Either you believe you're so special you deserve something nobody else gets, or you're asking for something you can never recieve so that you can endlessly occupy territories you have no legal right to. that's the point, too. To make demands that can't be met so you can declare yourselves innocent of the crimes you commit. And yes, you are guilty of every crime you enable. We all are, we don't get play cutsy games about how we were suckered, when all we wanted was to be suckered. The bottom line is that Israel interests are now completely the opposite of our own. And another thing, you can't wash your hands of blood by pointing how bloody the hands of others are. You don't get to declare yourself a victim of circumstance, or point to Iran and say 'they are worse'. Iran doesn't claim to be a beacon of peace, freedom and justice in the world. Israel does. America does. To some of us, those aren't words to be wielded as swords against our enemies. They are deeply held beliefs of what we should be, regardless of what we currently are. Ultimately, Benny and people like him should serve as an example. This is why torture, genocide, terrorism, and war are so much worse than other crimes. They don't just just corrupt and twist those that commit these crimes. They taint the victims as well. Corrutping them until what they once were is lost ,and what's left is a mirror image of those they pretend to despise. What they pretend to despise, yet find so seductive they are incapable of resisting it. When you're terrified, hatred feels a lot like strength. Posted by: soullite on November 22, 2006 at 10:35 AM | PERMALINK49 of the past 171 comments are Jeffery's. That makes 29%. I'm all for having differing opinions, but he's hijacking the site. Please ban him, Kevin. Posted by: Jeffery sux on November 22, 2006 at 10:39 AM | PERMALINKJeffrey Sux, and what portion of this posts total are Benny's? Can you say he's always been honest? At least Jeffrey, for his vulgarity and spite, is an honest man. He says what he means, even if it hurts his credibility. Benny makes any argument he can, even if he knows it's not true. and lets be serious here, there are some things he says nobody with his knowledge of the situation can honestly believe to be true. You're clearly not ONLY interested in the number of posts he's made, or you would be concerned about others as well. Jeffrey may not be that comprehensible. And he may not be that nice, but benn hasn't been the best voice of reason either. Hell ,really, has anyone? We all have wig out moments, we're people of extreme passion. If we weren't, we'd be stamp collectors. Hell, I've even issued fatwahs, called for armed rebellion and once I may have even suggest republican death camps. I'm just not sure if that was this site or not. the point is this; stop making requests for people to be banned for reasons you don't really believe in. Posting too often isn't really a bad thing. Posting 'free sex now!!!!!' for 20 lines 50 times a day is bad thing. you want him banned because he doesn't agree with you, the rest is just window dressing. Posted by: soullite on November 22, 2006 at 11:21 AM | PERMALINKIt wasn't long ago that I decided that the only way to solve this conflict is to use every nuclear weapon in the US arsenal to make both Israel and Palestine into an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland for the next 22,000 years. Nuking Jerusalem would affect the American evangelicals, who have their own religious reasons for fomenting violence in the area - to bring back the Prince of Peace. Posted by: Hostile on November 22, 2006 at 4:03 PM | PERMALINKThe contributors to this thread might be interested in visiting the following links: The Middle East Conflict-Interesting Quotes Article by Stephen R Shalom Speech by HM King Abdullah I, reported in The American Magazine November, 1947 Quote from Ariel Sharon Article by Rabbi Mordechi Weberman, 11th December 2004 Article by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt Article by Chelli Stanley A few photos of everyday life in Palestine Article by Yamin Zakaria "Jeffrey": You're not entirely right about Hiroshima. The figures you cited include populations from districts that have been absorbed into the city as it expanded beyond its pre-1945 borders. Most notably, the Asakita and Asaminami wards were parts of gun (counties) lying outside the city proper. Today, they house almost 400,000 people -- roughly 1/3 of the city's population. As for damage, there's the little fact that the Enola Gay dropped a bomb with a yield of 15 kilotons -- a couple of orders of magnitude less than many contemporary bombs. It's safe to assume that a bomb dropped over a heavily populated area today would create far greater physical damage, and that the effects of radiation would linger far longer. As for almost everything else you've contributed to this thread, you're a coward and a fool. 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