www.LouDobbs4President.com Petition

Happy Thanksgiving, one and all!

Maybe they should call it the "Prick".

www.jefferyberman4trolloftheminute.com

I worship at the altar of trollish non sequitors!

the Frick has a rule against children under 10.

The age requirement is very bad because it should be raised to 18. The Frick's art museum has lots of nude paintings in it. It is wrong and immoral to expose children to nudity before they turn 18. If the nudity was shown in a movie, the movie would be rated R and children under 18 wouldn't be allowed to watch it. Similiary, children under 18 shouldn't be allowed to enter the Frick.

Why all the sudden concern for children -- you guys are fine killing them in utero.

Of course I shouldn't feed the Al-troll, but even if the museum were rated R children could come accompanied by their parents. Conservatives claim that parents should make decisions like this, or they used to. But Big Brother knows best now.

Maybe they should call it the "Prick".

Arizona had a disgraced governor, forced to resign, who was the grandson of Frick. He was a Republican and he was reelected right before he was convicted and forced to resign.

I think when the full effects of the reduction of bankruptcy protection are felt, the forging of documents to create/assume new identities will become common place. People will seek protection from creditors outside of the law, since there is no law protecting them now.

It is wrong and immoral to expose children to nudity before they turn 18.

And they should be required to take showers and baths with their clothes on and cover their eyes when they use the bathroom.

wahoofive and alf:

That was the fake "Al", you know that right?

My aunt took me to the Frick when I was eight or nine and security let me in after my she asked very, very nicely. We had come to see a specific painting and I believe she asserted that we would only look at this one particular painting. This was, however, a bit more than twenty years ago.

For what it's worth, we wanted to see a potrait of General John "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne -- allegedly a distant relative of ours. Burgoyne, a British General was, in addition to being a dandy and a mediocre writer of comic operas, best known for losing the Battle of Saratoga in 1777. Gentleman Johnny is a dubious figure from which to claim lineage, but like most families, we cling to what the genealogy tree offers.

http://collections.frick.org/Obj566$22212

I can't believe the amount of nudity that liberals get away with in this country. Liberals even take their clothes off before they get in the shower! And have you ever been to a nudist colony? I have, and it's not too much fun, to be honest. Although the parties can be nice.

Michelangelo and da Vinci were undoubtedly liberals.

Violence on TV and in the movies is okay with me, though. And killing lots of brown people in Iraq, or whatever country, frankly, is fine as well.

Abortions, on the other hand, are way out. Cluster bombs are in.

Jesus lives.

Actually the rule is intended to protect children from overzealous parents who want their kids to get into Princeton at age 11. The Frick is one my favorite spots but parents should be taking their children under 10 to the zoo across the street instead.

As I suspected, the policy is in place because the Frick isn't organized like a typical museum -- with everything under glass or behind ropes:

"The Collection attempts to preserve the ambience of Mr. Frick’s private house, and visitors are therefore asked to observe regulations necessary for protecting the works of art and their domestic setting. Because few ropes or cases are used to guard fragile objects, children under ten are not admitted to the Collection, and those under sixteen must be accompanied by an adult."

Kevin, you should have felt lucky that Henry Clay Frick's strikebreaking goons from Homestead were not still around to break both your skulls.

Ah, the Captains of Wealth - spend their years breaking the backs of others, even have their goons maim and kill, even if it was in the name of Carnegie, and then leave their largess for others to share as art, in Frick's case, and libraries, for his former boss's legacy. Thus patrons, over the age of 10 can ooh and ahh over the wonders within the mansion, or those of any age who can read for free, and never feel the shame of the benefactors' greed and cruelness.

Geez, I wonder what the largess of the truly greedy super rich of today will provide for future generations of the hoi polloi?

She faked a birth certificate to get her daughter into the Frick? That's.....kind of cool, actually.

No, not really. She's a typical Republican, always thinking and acting as if the rules don't apply to them. Can't wait till her underage daughter gets picked up for purchasing booze with a fake ID. Like mother, like daughter.

Just think of the wonders that could have been achieved in a truly world class art museum in Berlin, if only so many works had not either been re-stolen or returned to the rightful heirs.

J Paul Getty was a tough business man - Made a fortune, but not from killing and maiming others. So have a pleasant tour of all of those wonders not encased at the Frick. The Goerring could have also been a wondrous palace.

It is wrong and immoral to expose children to nudity before they turn 18

My 19 month old daughter ran into my bathroom last weekend right after I got out of the shower. She came to a dead stop and her smile faded to sudden look of fear as she slowly started back stepping. "What's wrong sweetie" I said. My wife answered holding back laughter, "Your penis frightened her."

Maybe "Al" is right on this one...

shasta cola:

How do you know her party registration? Cathy writes the weekly "From the Left Coast" column for National Review Online, a monthly column for Independent Women's Forum and freelances other places, such as the Los Angeles Times and Wall Street Journal op-ed pages. She previously wrote columns for: Buzz, Mediaweek, UPI, New York Press and Salon. Her work has also appeared in Reason and Penthouse magazine.

Sounds like a liberal to me.

It seems like an especially bad idea to confess in print to forging state documents, however benign the motive.

Even more reason to think she's a Democrat. Besides, did you see her picture? Bow wow!

For what it's worth when my daughter was not quite two years old we were at the Medieval galleries at the Legion of Honor Museum in San Francisco when we saw two adults who had apparently never seen a polychrome wood sculpture before start feeling the paint and wood to see if they were real. My daughter broke away from me and ran over to them shaking her finger and saying "Not upposed to touch the statues." (No typo in that line.)

Dumping on kids is the oldest one in the book to overlook widespread adult bad behavior. The usual result is to justify adult rudeness to children who know how to behave a lot better than they do.

Arguing via anecdote is the oldest one in the book to overlook widespread evidence to the contrary.

Forgery, misrepresentation of the age of another under 21, criminal possession of a forged instrument -- I'd give her 90 days.

She probably feels the same way about paying taxes and hiring illegal aliens as nannies. She might even have a collection of high quality color printers as an FU to the authorities trying to tell her what she can and can't do.

Of course Seipp is a wingnut, and like most wingnuts she is an /ala carte/ law abider, who thinks that she is above the law whenever it happens to inconvenience her. Little different from her hero, GWB.

But there is a better way to spin this: How about we start spreading the meme that GWB's incessant law breaking behavior is having a trickle down effect upon his supporters?

Further to B's indictment comment above -

If you read Cathy's piece further, you'll find out:

1) She kept the fake certificate after the Frick. Why? (Read on.)

2) It's been used again (9 years later!), and is still being used by her daughter as of the date of the post. (Truly, like mother like daughter.)

3) So I guess Maia will be using it for other purposes until she's 21 - far be it from me to mention what.

Hmm, are we talking felony here? Maybe multi....

I would not want that blog post to follow me around.

Faked a birth certificate?

Captain Sensible instantly thought of voter fraud and insurance fraud and tax fraud when he read that.

Not sure if Ms Seipp is all that wise for telling people that she committed forgery.

Typical statute regarding the use of a falsified birth certificate:

Any person violating the provisions of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction must be fined not less than five hundred dollars nor more than two thousand five hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

Hope you look good in jailhouse garb, missy.

My spouse and I created a fake UCLA student ID specifically for the purpose of a last minute trip to the Getty. Students can park without a reservation.

I went to the Frick a while back, and I didn't recall any nudity -- just the sort of tasteful work you'd expect from a 19th-century plutocrat. A quick look at the website, though reveals a naked Jesus, among other things that sound terrible until you realize they were painted by 13th-century monks.

Ok, this sort of think drives me beserk. Of course the parent always thinks that his or her child is the exception that the rules don't apply to. The result is the tennis camp I tried to send my 8-year-old daughter to over the summer for 5 to 8 year olds. Some of the kids looked about 3 and couldn't hold a racquet, but whose parents were certain that they were mature enought to play. The kids are also told to lie about their age by their parents, a nice early lesson in deceit for really no good reason. If you are going to lie about these things, precisely where do you draw the line?

Needless to say, my daughter didn't get much out of the camp.

Yes, Cathy Seipp is your typical Republican lawbreaker and a self-described "neocon:"

http://www.pajamasmedia.com/2006/11/voting_my_ticket.php

Yep, when she's not complaining about poor customer service or musing aloud about her creepy neighbors, she's advocating the overthrow of foreign governments to solidify America's hegemon and unilaterally decide the shape of the international community for the next century.

Today's Republican women; so ridiculous, so sublime.

pay the f&%$ing admission you cheap twits...why "pay" for something when yu can just cheat/steal/lie...what a wonderful moral compass cathy has...her child is probably a dream too...hope some underprivialged student doesn't take her place at Harvard or USC...sheezz

The Frick is one of the three best museums in New York, and it's terrific that children aren't allowed.

Until recently, women in pants were not admitted to the research room.

These things don't bother me as long as they stay on the level of small arts institutions.

When laws seem unjust, people stop following the law. Does that really suprise anyone? that's the way it works, and quite frankly that's the way it should work. Law isn't made by democracy, it's made hidden from democracy.

Kevin,

you are just being naive.

Of course she did not fake a birth certificate to get into the Frick. She just admitted to lie when it's convenient for her. That's the point of her story.

I even doubt she took the daughter to the Frick in the first place. Looking at her blog (http://maialazar.com/), she looks like she hasn't been exposed to much mind opening experience.

There is a strange bit toward the end about using the fake birth certificate to get medical treatment (dermatology).

If accurate this is probably about FDA regulations for Accutane. A parental signature is required for people under 18 because of the possibility of inducing birth defects causing liver toxicity. Cathy's story is a bit mixed up here, but that's the only thing that makes sense to me.

So evidently Cathy doesn't believe the FDA should be allowed to discriminate based on age, even when the drug in question could effect the health of unborn child?

Alternatively, her daughter could be a bit devious and going to a school in a state that requires parental notification for minors having abortions. "Mom, could you send me the fake birth ceritificate. The doctor is recommending a drug course, but it requires that I get your signature [scratch that, my mom has a fax machine] . . It requires that I have someone over 18 come in with me."

that should be "inducing birth defects and damaging your liver"

Put me in the group of people who can't stand it when people bring too young children to places they don't belong and won't enjoy. I want to enjoy myself without listening to crying babies and avoiding SUV size strollers. You know, some rules aren't warrentless. They actually make life nice for the rest of us. And yes I have children and yes I love them and no they don't belong everywhere.

My guess is that Seipp is over compensating for not breast feeding her daughter because she didn't want sagging boobs.

That's a ridiculous accusation, B. I would never lie to my mom.

Of course, I feel violated. In my town and county - it's my right to be nude or at least not sexual in public. If a child needs to be suckled in a public place, it's illegal to stop the woman from doing it. Or if she just doesn't want to wear a shirt or bra.

It's funny what sorts of things some people get uppity about. Now, I know that children can be interruptive - but isn't it a matter of behavior and guardianship, not a matter of age?

...I doubt my spouse would've come home with Novovirus from the art museum if she and hundreds of children had gone there instead of the zoo.

(By the way, how do conservatives keep their children from seeing animals displaying their primary mating displays at the zoo? Or the elephant bull when he needs to take a leak?)

When I was small, my mom took me and my siblings to the Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago. There was a temporary installation there which was some sculpture involving sticks. When my mom wasn't looking, I crawled under the ropes and started re-arranging the sticks. My mom caught me before any museum employees saw...

Doesn't it bother anyone that this woman forged a legal document? I understand that us liberals think unjust laws should be broken--lord know I've broken my share, but the point of having a government is at least partially to ensure the accuracy of certain types of assertion--so and so is married, so and so died, and so and so is this age. I think we all have a vested interest in this. Praising someone who brags about breaking a reasonable law is once again to reinforce the notion of special entitlement that so many of the educated and/or wealthy among us harbor. If her daughter really needed to see the paintings inside the Frick why not tell her about them, build them up in her mind, and then when she was old enough, take her. It's sort of like one of those rite of passage thingies that the primatives have. You know the primatives--naked savages, and people who work in the service industries, right?

Put me in the group of people who can't stand it when people bring too young children to places they don't belong and won't enjoy.

A prominent piano professor was giving a recital at the nearby univerity and he was very popular, especially since faculty recitals used to be free. A family sat behind me with two or three young children. The boy fell asleep and snored loudly through the entire performance. No matter how many dirty looks I gave the parents, they would not wake their child and stop his snoring. I do not blame the child and did not address him in any way. Please leave your children at home if they cannot be well behaved at public performances.

I enjoy going to museums and I notice many adults using the flash on their cameras and requiring an admonishment from the attendants. It is not only children who disrupt public spaces.

From first hand experience I can tell you this sucked.
My mom was an in home teacher for the city. One day she rounded up her charges, and me and we went on a scheduled field trip.
And I think we went to the frick.
And I got stuck sitting out in the lobby for over an hour.
Well that sucked.
And now many, many, many years later, that child hood memory is still with me.

When my son went to a school camp program for a few days they had the kids shower in bathing suits. Pretty funny. We lived in Japan for three years where we sometimes used the public baths in the resort hotels. My kids were used to seeing lots of naked people. It was funny though. When my sister's family visited us her and her daughters were fine going to the public bath with my wife but my brother-in-law absolutely refused to go with my sons and I to the men's bath.

The year I was eleven I had to take a copy of my birth certificate each week to the Saturday movies in order to get the under-12 ticket price. I'll bet they don't even have children's prices any longer, and probably haven't for decades.

When my son went to a school camp program for a few days they had the kids shower in bathing suits.
Kids do that these days, without being told to. They also change in the toilet stalls at the pool. Weird. Not sure where all this modesty came from. When I was a kid everybody just changed in the locker room and went into the shower naked.

"I can't believe the amount of nudity that liberals get away with in this country....

Michelangelo and da Vinci were undoubtedly liberals."
___________________

Yep. And both those fellas were usually employed by the Church of Rome, that den of licentiousness.

Kevin, I wonder how some of your readers get through the day, with those sticks up their ass like that.

For the record, yes, the Frick has always banned children under 10, in order to keep out babies and strollers and bored preschoolers running around. But obviously this situation had nothing to do with that, as I said in my post my daughter was 8 or 9 at the time, and so could have passed for 10 -- which she did, as we easily got into the Frick without anyone asking for the (faked) birth certificate.

So the letter of the law was violated in this case, but not the spirit.

Maia was well-behaved at the Frick, as she always is in museums, except for a moment when she tried to shush a couple of older ladies who were loudly talking about some bathing suits they'd seen on sale in Bloomingdales. I explained to her that not all adults know how to behave in musuems but it's rude for children to try to enforce the rules.

As for those readers who think a 17-yr-old college freshman shouldn't see a student health ctr dermatologist without an 18-yr-old friend in tow, well, I'd be interested to hear their logic. Do they actually think a 17-yr-old is unable to correctly answer questions about whether she's pregnant or not without an 18-yr-old there to give her a hint about the right answer? If so, I'd be interested to hear their logic.

Of course, as some of your readers suggested, it really all comes down to party loyalty. So, since they're so interested, yes, I am a registered Republican. In which case I suppose it's all put in a different light, isn't it? Those ladies talking about the bathing suits at Bloomingdales were probably Democrats, and Maia was being a mean Republican trying to squelch their freedom of speech etc.

As for those who think children shoudn't see nude art in museums, well, I guess they'd better start picketing most museums in this country, as the nude art is freely on view there to even babies!

Kevin, I wonder how some of your readers get through the day, with those sticks up their ass like that.

For the record, yes, the Frick has always banned children under 10, in order to keep out babies and strollers and bored preschoolers running around. But obviously this situation had nothing to do with that, as I said in my post my daughter was 8 or 9 at the time, and so could have passed for 10 -- which she did, as we easily got into the Frick without anyone asking for the (faked) birth certificate.

So the letter of the law was violated in this case, but not the spirit.

Maia was well-behaved at the Frick, as she always is in museums, except for a moment when she tried to shush a couple of older ladies who were loudly talking about some bathing suits they'd seen on sale in Bloomingdales. I explained to her that not all adults know how to behave in musuems but it's rude for children to try to enforce the rules.

As for those readers who think a 17-yr-old college freshman shouldn't see a student health ctr dermatologist without an 18-yr-old friend in tow, well, I'd be interested to hear their logic. Do they actually think a 17-yr-old is unable to correctly answer questions about whether she's pregnant or not without an 18-yr-old there to give her a hint about the right answer? If so, I'd be interested to hear their logic.

Of course, as some of your readers suggested, it really all comes down to party loyalty. So, since they're so interested, yes, I am a registered Republican. In which case I suppose it's all put in a different light, isn't it? Those ladies talking about the bathing suits at Bloomingdales were probably Democrats, and Maia was being a mean Republican trying to squelch their freedom of speech etc.

As for those who think children shoudn't see nude art in museums, well, I guess they'd better start picketing most museums in this country, as the nude art is freely on view there to even babies!

Thank you for posting, but the "nudity" comments above were just sarcastic. Regardless of your current party registration (you were registered Democrat when you forged the document) or the "logic" behind any instance(s) you feel you needed a fake birth certificate, the crime of forgery applies whether you used the forgery or not. Besides, the statute of limitations has passed on the Frick violation; now you have admitted to a much more recent (and serious) violation. So much for the letter and spirit of the law. Selective prosecution out there in California may indeed come down to your new party registration (and that of the DA).

Apart from the unwarranted personal attacks above (and I assumed that was not the real "Maia" posting above), one is not allowed to violate laws based on one's feelings. Imagine the chaos. Do you feel the same way about paying taxes and hiring illegal aliens as nannies?

A fake B? weird. Fake Maia too?

As for those readers who think a 17-yr-old college freshman shouldn't see a student health ctr dermatologist without an 18-yr-old friend in tow

Cathy, What I'd like to see is such a policy spelled out in writing. I see nothing on any UCSD website. I just don't believe it is the policy.

A parental signature for care of a minor, on the other hand, is a reasonable and logical step. You can argue about the age cut off, legal means of bypassing it, etc. -- But no one wants a doctor and a ten year old deciding on a course of treatment on their own.