> It's tempting to see this as stuff as small potatoes

Not to me...and I attend church. It's outrageous.

More permanent link to the NYT story.

Bloggers should use the link generator when linking to Times articles.

What are the 'obvious political implications'?

See, this just proves that all you liberals hate Jesus and people of faith. If tax-exempt churches can't push specific candidates, there is no freedom!

Ban voting in churches.

And tax 'em, too.

Imagine the wingnut screams if they were made to vote in a mosque....

Devil's advocate - a lot of polling places are in schools (probably the number 1 location.)
If there is a ballot measure for school bonds, should they not be used?
There is a legitimate point here, but it is more complicated than just churches.

I don't have a problem with voting in church social halls (or similar rooms in synogogues or mosques), which seems to be the more usual situation, but voting in sanctuaries or in places with signs like those described is unacceptable (to use one of Our Leader's favorite words, along with "fabulous" and "superb").

We could vote in shopping malls!

Think of the product placement possibilities!

hopeless

The school would be ok as long as there weren't references to the ballot question. A school itself is neutral and could have equally positive or negative connotations depending on the biases of the voter.

Likewise, if people voted in the basement of my church, they'd enter through a side door and would not have any religious symbols, posters, etc in view. So I'd say that's ok.

My point is the type of building (school, church, senior high rise, park building, community center, whatever) are all neutral vis-a-vis the election. The abortion plaque is obviously partisan. The cross is less so, but it doesn't belong in a polling place.

>>Imagine the wingnut screams if they were made to vote in a mosque....
Posted by: Stefan

I imagine that most of the screaming would be from within the mosque. I mean as infidels we're not permitted into whole freakin' cities.

Funny how these so-called Christians always want Old Testament sayings plastered everywhere. How about putting some of Christ's words where they might do some good? How about the Beatitudes? "Blessed are the peacemakers" over the entrance to the Pentagon?? "Blessed are the poor" at the Dept. of Health and Human Services??

CFShep, I (an infidel) went to a candidate forum at a mosque last month. You may now return to your paranoid rant.

Not only that, but one of the candidates who spoke was (gasp!) a Jewish woman.

Render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's.

Motherfuckers.

>>Not only that, but one of the candidates who spoke was (gasp!) a Jewish woman.
Posted by: KCinDC

Ah, but I'm an atheist. I don't think there's much in the Koran which argues for my expecting much in the way of tolerance in most Islamic countries based on that fact.

And why is it 'a paranoid rant' to state a simple fact? Namely that you are not permitted, on pain of death, mind you, to set foot in Mecca or Medina.

Are you planning to visit Mecca any time soon? Let me know how that works out for you.

Please sign the petition to have Lou Dobbs run for president at:
http://www.loudobbs4president.com/

CFShep, I'm not aware of any proposals for US polling places in Mecca. What does that have to do with your fantasies of screaming in the mosques?

Here's the thing about polling places. You want a lot of them spread out throughout the community so you can avoid the atrocity we saw in Denver this year where major consolidated polling places had meltdowns and people waited in massive lines for hours without voting.

Most churches have several characteristics that make them good polling places including:

1. Lots of parking that isn't generally used on a Tuesday

2. Lots of indoor space for people to wait in inclement weather.

3. Public bathrooms that aren't too scuzzy

4. Lots of floor space to set up voting equipment.

5. Convenient locations in many neighborhoods where other types of businesses might be banned due to zoning laws.

Personally I've never voted in a church. I've voted in lots of schools in the various places that I've lived, and one firestation in Alaska. The best polling place I've ever voted was at the Seattle Yacht Club when I lived in Seattle's Montlake neighborhood. The club used to have hors D'oeuvres sitting out for voters, like crab puffs. Yum.

That said, the real solution to the problem is a vote by mail system such as they have in Oregon.

And if they tax liquor, should not they be allowed to vote in taverns? Especially, the type that I used to own. First get 'em good and oiled, then hand 'em the party ballot.

Our current polling place is a fire station. They send all of our trucks elsewhere and set up the booths in the garage.

I have mild apprehension, as opposed to ranting paranoia, should any large fires break out in my neighborhood that the response time might be a bit off.

No crab puffs for sure. Drafty and cold.

The time is now for a third party president, sign a petition to have populist Lou Dobbs run at:
http://www.loudobbs4president.com/

Time for a government of the people.

callahan, shush. lou dobbs is not going to be president, no matter how many people visit that site.

I'm a buddhist, and my sect's doctrine strictly prohibits setting foot inside of temples and churches of any sect but my own. My precinct was recently moved to a christian church, so I had to violate my own religious beliefs in order to vote. So I decided to vote by absentee ballot the next time. They sent me two ballots by accident, I only sent one in. After the election, I got a letter from the county, threatening me with arrest if I did not return the extra ballot. Well it's a good thing I hadn't thrown it out. So I took it back to the County Clerk by hand. Sheesh.
I miss my old precinct in California, where I voted in the front office of a private business (a plumbing wholesaler). I thought a display of pipe fittings was appropriate for an election.

Kent, if you're promoting vote-by-mail (which means the end of the secret ballot), I assume you're okay with having those churches have their members all get together with their ballots to make sure everyone votes the right way (and similarly with husbands and wives, and employers and employees, and thugs and victims, and bribers and bribees)?

My polling place was at a church and that's the reason I started to vote absentee. After doing so for the last 15 years the polling place finally changed to local elementary school's auditorium.

There are schools everywhere, neutral, and a better location for a polling place. But the best solution IMHO is to mirror Oregon's mail voting system that eliminates many problems.

Cleek, never say never or in your case "Lou Dobbs is not going to be president". If a hollywood movie "star" (Ronnie) or a monkey (Dumbya) can be president, then so can a CNN economist/journalist.

Time is now for a third party.

http://www.loudobbs4president.com/

Bram, on what planet are Democrats trying to get back(?) into the good graces of the religious right? Most Christians are not the religious right, and those who are are certainly not the ones any Democrats are trying to reach out to.

I voted in a church basement a couple times. It was fine, but that's a non-insane seattle church. I can certainly see how some churces would be unwilling or unable to provide a suitably neutral environment.

Personally I like voting in schools better. I remember seeing people vote in my elementary school as a kid, and today the kids in the elementary school near where I work see me vote.

If a hollywood movie "star" (Ronnie) or a monkey (Dumbya) can be president, then so can a CNN economist/journalist.
Posted by: callahan on November 29, 2006 at 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

The examples you cite were sock-puppets for the cabal of petro-war-pharma-profiteers. The argument, of course, for voting for sock-puppets, is that they will be "good managers" and surround themselves with the right expertise. Well, in the case of Ronnie and Dumbya, that "right expertise" turned out to be the Bush Family Retainers who have been manipulating US politics since the Nixon Administration (and even the Johnson Administration). Same for Ah-nold.

What does Lou Dobbs bring to the table, besides common sense? Ross Perot had that, and didn't fare too well. Though I think that the "trust party A, and reform them" approach is a sucker's bet - I don't think the time is quite ripe for a third party in the US just yet. Perot was the high-water-mark for that. Unfortunately, things are going to have to get significantly worse in this country before a third party, or a real political outsider has a chance in hell.

The link that Zachary Roth provides, mainly talks about problems with electronic voting machines. While e-voting or “black box voting” certainly carries a high risk of fraud along with it, particularly when no paper receipts are provided, don’t be fooled, kind people. The 2000 and 2004 presidential elections were stolen by much more common means. I strongly suggest that anyone interested in learning more about voting fraud, read any number of articles by investigative reporter Greg Palast, particularly this one. I also highly recommend his most recent book Armed Madhouse, which nicely dissects the means used by the Dirty Tricks Party (i.e. the GOP), to make sure that America doesn’t have truly fair and democratic elections.

I've voted in a lot of Churches but they were always respectful enough of the Constitution and the separation of Church and State to hold the voting in a gymnasium or a social room where no obvious Christian symbols were present.

It's just polite and respectful not to thrust religious images next to ballot boxes.

Christians have lost their sense of civility if they feel 'threatened' or 'humilitated' by a simple request to honor the Constitution and keep Church and State separate as much as possible. The founding fathers would have understood, why can't the Southern Babtist convention? It's almost anti American for them not to.

And why is it 'a paranoid rant' to state a simple fact? Namely that you are not permitted, on pain of death, mind you, to set foot in Mecca or Medina.

Ae you planning to visit Mecca any time soon? Let me know how that works out for you.

The original "fact" said mosque, not Mecca. We don't put polling places in Mecca, so what's the fuss? Or is your poor little conservative self-esteem hurt because those nasty Muslims won't let you come over and play?

Please point out where "separation of Church and State" are in the U.S. Constitution. I'll wait.

Oh, geez, not that canard again! (Charlie, is that you?)

No, the First Amendment doesn't use the phrase "separation of Church and State," and yes, "separation of Church and State" is a perfectly accurate description of its intent and well understood by the Framers.

You're welcome.

Bram, I've read quite a few Amy Sullivan articles and heard her speak in person a couple of times, but I've never heard her suggest reaching out to the religious right -- only to persuadable Christians (like the ones who voted for Carter and even Clinton but then voted for Bush). Could you point out an article where she envisioned convincing, say, James Dobson or Pat Robertson or their followers to go Democratic?

I'm not saying I agree with her position, only that there seem to be a lot of people who react to a parody of her position rather than what she actually says.

Of course, the people reacting to the parody aren't normally also people who don't believe in separation of church and state. You're pioneering an interesting niche, Bram.

there is not a muslim congregation in the US which would not let anyone vote within its walls, if offered. context is everything, and american muslims (ie, your neighbors) aren't seeped in the sterotypical hatred.

way too broad a brush there, KCinDC.

What we really ought to do is;

For every Church built; there should be built a Public Library, which can be used as a polling place.

While we're at it, we can attach a rider that bans "banned book" lists.

KCinDC -
It's not that Democrats are reaching out to the hard-core Conservative Evangelists, which are perhaps a subset of maybe 30% of all of those who self-identify as "religious" in this country. There's a huge chunk of "newly converted" evangelicals who, out of fear of the rising Fascist Corporate Hegemony in this nation, fled to faith, as a quick-fix for what they perceive as the immorality of Corporate Rule (Fiduciary Duty). Of course, they have quickly learned that the leaders of their Corporate Evangelical Movement were just as hypocritical and corrupt as any other human being is - and were dissapointed; (see, Nov 11, 2006 election results).

The Obamas and Deans of the party, are reaching out to this broad subset of disaffected Evangelicals. The people who are starting to wake up to the fact that the modern-day Phairasees, the Falwells, the Dobsons, are just dirty, arrogant, greedy, lying, opportunistic politicians.

Nothing wrong with that.

I'm especially loving the statue of Mary looking down on you as you vote. God's Mamma is watching you!

Well, the American Humanist Assn is doing this to "highlight our cause to the broader public." Will it have the desired effect? I don't know. On the one hand, we have the ten commandments on courthouse lawns. On the other, the article did indicate that many churches voluntarily cover religious iconography out of respect for voters.

Will this be dismissed as more evidence that liberals hate religion? Will this turn into a political-correctness-fest? I think both sides should probably be (and probably have been) willing to give a little. Living in a pluralistic society pretty much demands that.

Political-correctness is the fear-based-politics of my party. And I for one am sick of fear-based politics, no matter its origin. I'd like to see a little more tolerance and a little less litigation. Do we really have to send in the shock troops every time?

I believe Washington Monthly is tax-exempt -- shouldn't churches be able to advocate in the political arena as much as Kevin Drum?
Posted by: Bram on November 29, 2006 at 1:55 PM | PERMALINK

As soon as they register themselves as 501c's.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" Or in otherwords it would be WRONG for a goverment organization to come into a church and demand they hide religious symbols or prohibit the free expression of their beliefs.

Government entities can come into a church building but they have no right to tell that church to hide their displays. It seems to me the same people who are so disturbed that any public display of religion is leading to a "theocracy" have no problem stating their desire the poll workers cover up religious symbols inside a church building. For them to cover over religious symbols would be a violation of the First Amendment.

Or does the church suddenly become government property when it steps foot inside the building?

Liberal hypocrisy on display.

I believe Washington Monthly is tax-exempt -- shouldn't churches be able to advocate in the political arena as much as Kevin Drum?

Now, which idiotic troll was asking that question a few weeks ago on the now-defunct blog that they ran before the election...hmmm?

Bram/Cheney/Charlie/Jeffery/Chuckles, just fuck off and give it a rest. No one here is gonna be bullied by your bullshit today or any other day.

I have voted in a Church for several years. No problem. I don't recall seeing large crucifixes or pictures of aborted fetuses in the part of the church where we vote. The local election board pays the church for the use of the space. They insist that the church members stay out of the way and not electioneer.

I don't get it. What's the problem? Aren't we talking about grownups. If you haven't made up your mind how you are going to vote before you enter the polling place, please don't vote. You are hopeless.

Sorry, OBF, but my lawsuit is going to include Public Libraries among locations where you cannot have a polling place (who knows when a ballot measure for, say, construction of new libraries is going to come up next ; )

Not that you would actually have the means to do anything other than pull lint out of the band of your one pair of underwear, there, Chuckles.

Can't you find the decency to troll properly?

Sorry, OBF, but my lawsuit is going to include Public Libraries among locations where you cannot have a polling place (who knows when a ballot measure for, say, construction of new libraries is going to come up next ; )

Not that you would actually have the means to do anything other than pull lint out of the band of your one pair of underwear, there, Chuckles.

Can't you find the decency to troll properly?

My polling place is a school too. Sorry a church was so offensive to you guys. I thought you were trying NOT to piss off the Christian majority.

Bram, as a very member of that "Christian majority" you speak of (although I'm Catholic, so perhaps in your eyes I don't count), we are tired of the right-wing fundamentalist punks laying exclusive right to the description "Christian." And, oh yes, please have your fellow travelers stop using the word "family" as a euphemism for fundie ideology.

.. but my lawsuit . . .
Posted by: Bram on November 29, 2006 at 2:06 PM | PERMALINK

Hopefully, your lawyer's bill will make it impossible for you to afford your internet service.

What are the 'obvious political implications'?

In my case, it would be a greater likelihood of voting for a pro-choice candidate when "...confronted by a large marble plaque dedicated to the 'unborn children' who are 'killed' by abortion..." etc. The crucifix wouldn't have any effect on my vote one way or the other.

It is against my home schooling vow to step into a public school to vote.

We better eliminate the VFW halls because people might vote pro-military.

Can't do it at the YMCA because of the "Christian" part of that name.

Seem to be running out of places to vote.

Which idiotic troll was asking that question a few weeks ago on the now-defunct blog that they ran before the election? Do you have a Google cached page you can show us?

Thanks, Chuckles. That's all the confirmation I needed to confirm your identity.

>>Or is your poor little conservative self-esteem hurt because those nasty Muslims won't let you come over and play?
Posted by: tomeck

I'm a conservative?

Little Miss Yellow Dog Dem? Me?

Them's fightin' words, sir. Well, maybe custard-pie-in-the-face words since I'm fairly non-violent.

Besides I'm laughing too hard...

Webb's son must be one of those dumb and poor soldiers that Charlie Rangel was talking about.

Oh, and here you go Chuckles:

[this was when he was using the handle Thomas1]

You've got a pair of balls, Rebecca -- I will admit that. At least those 501(c)(3) corporations you mentioned are truthful when filing their tax returns -- unlike Washington Monthly.

Posted by: Thomas1 on October 17, 2006 at 1:55 PM | PERMALINK

I've never posted on another blog in my life. How can asking you which other blog you were referring to "confirm" anything other than I wanted to know which other blog you were referring to?

OK, Chuckles. Your five minutes is up. Time to sign off and leave.

Bram:

I believe Washington Monthly is tax-exempt -- shouldn't churches be able to advocate in the political arena as much as Kevin Drum?

Here are a couple more from the Chuckles hit parade:

Kevin, how much does Washington Monthly obtain from Democrats, and how much does Washington Monthly pay you?
Posted by: Thomas1 on September 21, 2006 at 2:37 PM | PERMALINK

Did you know that it is against the law for NON-PROFIT 501(c)(3) corporations to advocate for legislation?
Posted by: Thomas1 on September 21, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK

On April 28, 2005, Markos Kounalakis (President of Washington Monthly) signed Form 990 "Return of Organization Exempt from Income Tax" under penalties of perjury that his organization does not "attempt to influence national, state, or local legislation, including any attempt to influence public opinion on a legislative matter or referendum." You may want to check with him, Kevin, before you post another thread attempt[ing] to influence national, state, or local legislation, including any attempt to influence public opinion on a legislative matter or referendum ; )
Posted by: Thomas1 on September 21, 2006 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK

Chuckles, don't challenge me to go find something in "Google." It just makes you look more and more like the deranged sociopath that you really are.

I went to three polling places in my county. Once to vote, and twice to take people to vote. Two of the three were churches, [White, as in ethnic] churches. The other was the volenteer firehall. K.F.

I just wish god would quit changing Democratic votes to Republican after they have been cast.

Chuckles:

Even assuming I ever used the handle "Thomas1", that was right here at Washington Monthly not at some other "now-defunct blog", right?

Actually, no, the post by Rebecca Sinderland WAS from the Google-cached version of the alternate blog that ran here on the Washington Monthly site; the other pieces from your hit parade came from the regular site, since you quite foolishly posted the same information the same way on BOTH blogs like the sick little bastard you are.

But thanks for playing.

Oh, that's right.

"Bram" is not Chuckles/Cheney/Thomas1/Charlie/Jeffery, he's just unnaturally obsessed with anything relating to the previous use of those handles to troll on this blog when someone discovers how stupid his mistakes were.

I get it now...

Were you, or anyone you know, offended to be voting in a church?

Would you, or anyone you know, be offended to be voting in a Temple dedicated to Satan?

Thought so. Game over. You lose.

Oh, so you meant "the alternate blog that ran here on the Washington Monthly site" rather than "now-defunct blog". O.K., that answers my question. I had seen that from Thomas1 before. But, please allow me to thank YOU for playing.

Wow, for someone who has never posted here, you sure are knowledgeable about things that have gone on around here in the last few months.

Thanks again, Chuckles. We're gonna celebrate wildly when you finally choke out your last breath and pass into eternity. How does it feel to know your legacy is this blog, and months upon months of accomplishing nothing?

I am neither Chuckles/Cheney/Thomas1/Charlie/Jeffery nor am I unnaturally obsessed with anything relating to the previous use of those handles. Other people I assume you do not think are Chuckles/Cheney/Thomas1/Charlie/Jeffery were interested in that during Kevin's last fundraiser.

Whoa, how'd you know it was on the FUNDRAISER thread?

I thought you said:

I've never posted on another blog in my life. How can asking you which other blog you were referring to "confirm" anything other than I wanted to know which other blog you were referring to?

And yet you knew that the thread in question dated back to September and it was the one where Kevin Drum asked for donations?

Hmmm....the plot thickens.

Yo, Chuckles--even a dumbass knows not to keep digging when they hit a natural gas pipeline in the hole they've dug for themselves.

Left of Liberal,

I haven't even started kicking Chuckles in the nuts.

Since I'm a neurologist, I tend to jump in to the occasional medical thread

Can you recommend some sort of treatment for Bram/Charlie's chronic idiocy?

Symptoms include multiple personalities seemingly unaware of one another, the inability to compose more than a few sentences without resorting to plagiarism, difficulty accepting reality, a profound lack of empathy towards human suffering, fantasies about killing millions of people, rigid moral beliefs that don't seem to apply to him, fantasies about being an attorney, and obsessive/compulsive behavior, to name a few.

I can never get the search bar on this site to work properly, but if you go back to the Schaivo threads, I took a scalpel to the mouth-breather myself.

Yeah, he called himself "Jacques" at the time and posted shit like this--

sglover - I would gladly trade the death penalty and unlimited public funding for everyone kept alive with medical technology (throw in free, notarized Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care) for Terri's tube re-inserted (although there's no question there's enough private funds to keep her alive for the rest of her life) and ban on abortions - deal?
Posted by: Jacques on March 25, 2005 at 5:42 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, and here's another one for you:

Gregory - I am not Charlie, but I am a lawyer (former Attorney General in fact), but who is lying when nearly every major disability rights organization in the country has filed a legal brief in support of Terri's right to live?
Posted by: Janet on March 30, 2005 at 1:45 PM | PERMALINK

So we can add Janet and Jacques to the roll-call of shame.

PS: still here, Chuckles? Heart doing okay? Not too excited, huh? You know, you're heart could explode right out of your chest if you get too excited.

i've voted in churches (a baptist church for the last 14 years) a fire hall, several-all-but-abandoned schools and a club house. don't see any difference in how i've voted.

btw orwell, when a government selects a church as a polling place it's a two-way street. the church doesn't have to accept the terms the government is offering, nor does the government have the right to impose its will on the church. in other words, it's a contract and the government can extend any terms it deems reasonable, including minimizing the display of religious symbols. if the church finds this unacceptable, they can always say no thanks. the first amendment has nothing to do with it.

Just wanted to get that one in before LoL signed off--

Hmm, the archives are hilarious. Back then, people were nailing Chuckles to the wall within one or two of his idiotic posts. Especially when he put on the dress and started using female handles.

I know you've suggested Haldol and Lorazapam, but is there anything that can help Chuckles with his obvious cross-dressing problem?

[writing carefully]

"Haldol and Lor...a...za...."

Got it, thanks.

I'll just ask them to crush it up in his lettuce wrap the next time he goes to P.F. Chang's.

We figure him for a drooler already so the side effects shouldn't be too noticeable.

and yes i'd have to say this is extremely small potatoes (though the anti abortion plaque might cross the line). the obvious solution is to limit anything that could be construed as having political implications in areas used for polling. it's a contract matter between election officials and the church, two willing parties, not a first amendment issue. if the church won't comply, find space elsewhere.

For impeach.remove.convict et al, I'm betting you are wrong on the third party chances in 08.

I'm a proud Lou Dobbsian Populist, he brings common sense, tenacity, and a willingness to take on the established and corrupted Big Business/Politco conglomerate. He is for secure borders, he is for FAIR trade, he is for the people.

http://www.loudobbs4president.com/

Nope, sorry bitch.

If I am really this Chuckles fellow

Stop, stop--that's just too funny.

Chuckles, the comfort of a slow, natural death at the hands of mother Nature is all you have to look forward to. And when you get to Heaven, St. Peter will just roll his eyes and laugh and then you'll understand what this argument is all about.

We could make the same argument regarding just about any other polling place and find something to nitpick as having political implications -- see, e.g. Public Libraries above.

No you couldn't, because civic buildings are are owned by the taxpayers and carefully regulated by the government to protect and respect the rights of the people therein.

They are the ultimate "safe places" in our country and in our democracy.

Conversely, places of worship are by definition environments that are hostile to pluralistic views, as you demonstrate here all the time with your Christianism. Walking into a church, temple, mosque, sacred grove, or coven basement and encountering symbols and/or explicit messages of a religious and often punitive nature can be seen as a threat to those who hold other convictions and is arguably an impediment to casting a vote.

Despite your big talk, there's no way in hell (pun intended) that you'd walk into a Satanist temple to cast your vote, and you know it - never mind that you unwillingly serve his cause all the time.

Fuckwit.

Or is it willingly?

One shouldn't make assumptions.

Despite your big talk, there's no way in hell (pun intended) that you'd walk into a Satanist temple

I dunno. He's probably got a fetish of some kind for dressing up in a blue dress, a beret and for carrying a jar with a fake fetus in it into public buildings so he can scare him up some man meat for a sweet treat.

Soon enough, Pale Rider, you will leave soon enough. Because I won't leave until you do (or, until you pay each claimholder $1,000 each, whichever comes first).

Huh? Are your meds being watered down by a crooked nurse again?

Chuckles:

Breathe slowly, take meds, call the nurse...nah, just die.

Should the government censor religion just because it offends certain people? Should the government tear down Pro Civil Rights posters at voting places because it offends some people?

If someone had a sign up saying "save the iraqi civlians" instead of "save the unborn children", would the liberals be nearly as offended?

Nah, I'd rather not, PR. Just know I will be here long after you leave ; )

Busted!

Winky-face emoticon!!!

Ding ding ding!!!

Fuck off and die, Chuckles! Even you can't resist tipping your hand.

I voted in a church recently. (I wisely didn't take the advice of that Thomas1 fellow and try to vote on Wednesday.) There were candidate signs, but they were not one sided, they were balanced. That's the law and not observing eletioneering proscriptions is a pretty stiff penalty. The voting booths were set up in the public area, not on the altar.

By the way, I'm not outraged by whatever Hillary tells me to be outraged by. I spend a great deal of time outraged at Hillary, though.

Okay, now can I play the part of Thomas1 and who ever else Kevin Drum (Pale Rider) wants to call me?

Tell me to die too please Pale Rider! Please, Please! I wanna play too.

Okay, Now I will play the part of Chuckles and I will get my paint ball gun and you play the part of shortstop and meet me behind the barn. First one to have three paint ball marks in the chest loses. Go!

to Bram:

(voice of Swiper) "Aww, man!"

Pale Rider:

I will wait for you by the monkey bars.

the issue is deeper than changing your vote one way or another. it's about being intimidated while voting. voters should not be encumbered or feel that voting is an experience they might rather avoid because of signage and religious iconography. to know that it would prevent some from voting in the most conveniently available way and say "so what?" is, in my mind, paramount to denying voters the franchise they _own_ in this democracy. taking together "we the people..." and the first amendment, its clear that voting should be free of obstacles, even psychological ones. also, it doesn't matter if even most people wouldn't have a problem voting with a crucifix hanging over them. what matters is that some would. that some like bram might be intimidated by an elementary school suggests he might have a serious problem.

sunship is arguing about the possible hangups but doesn't seem to have a problem with the state telling the church to cover up their free expressions of their faith.

This is really about getting rid of all Christian references anywhere near any kind of government operation. That isn't seperation of church and state; it is the state telling the church where to go. Which, of course, is unconstitutional.

The seperation of church and state was a minority view of the founding fathers and that is why it is not in the constitution. Benjamin Franklin had no problem with the church and government complimenting one another - and he wasn't a Christian. He voted with the majority to make prayer part of the beginning of sessions of the congress.

This argument is not about religious symbols, it is about Christian symbols.

Okay, let's here are the liars who want to say this country didn't begin as a Christian nation.

Why should you exclude the YMCA just because of your distaste for The Village People?

So, Chuckles the Bram - Have you formally apologized to Global Citizen for the vile and loathsome comments you made to her? This was in your Jeffery stage. Your comments, first about her granddaughter and then about her heritage and patriotism were the lowest filth to spew from this site. You are indeed one gutless sack of shit. Whether you are male, female, or both, you are beyond the pale.

The seperation of church and state was a minority view of the founding fathers and that is why it is not in the constitution.

Die, Christian retard.

Government entities can come into a church building but they have no right to tell that church to hide their displays.

But dubmshit, they do have the right to tell the church that it can't be voting place if it doesn't get the displays out of sight of the voting booth.

Imagine trying to vote against gay marriage while "Young man, I say young man" is blaring away.

Just give me one little hint about where this Bram asshole lives [an IP address would be a start], and I would be more than happy to fly there and pound his sickening, pimpled face flat. Please...

Oh, Bram and Jeffery are probably in a YMCA steam room somewhere holding hands, singing "Downward Christian Soldiers, marching off to bed"

If you live in Ireland, why the fuck did you care where another poster lives and votes, and why did you say we would have to content ourselves with the fact that person no longer lives here?

Our resident sociopath doesn't live in Ireland and he'd wet his pants at encountering any of the regulars here in real life after the way he's acted over the years.

bram,

generally speaking, libraries don't advocate a particular point of view, other than perhaps being in favor of literacy. you might find a das kapital in the stakes; that's hardly an endorsement of a particular stance on an issue, unlike say a marble plaque in a church memorializing aborted fetuses. if a church endorses a particular candidate or ballot issue, you're saying the church has a right to display signs advocating that candidate or position, a right not given to others. all i'm saying is there should be some sense of political neutrality at the polling place. general christian symbols to me aren't the problem.

beyond that, you're right. you can find something offensive most anywhere -- like fire code violations, failure to provide adequate parking, accessibility issues. government always sets conditions. if a church doesn't want to rent its facilities as a polling place and meet government conditions, it's their right to say no. simple.

Not really buying any of it Bram, but it was a good save and I'll grudgingly give two points for style. You've never been the chick magnet, but I bet you ain't a bad wingman.

I agree that this is a big problem. The fellowship room of our Quaker Meeting House serves as a polling place, but we go through it beforehand and take down all the posters and remove all the pamphlets to make sure that it's entirely neutral. There's certainly no cross on the wall!

OTOH, if they want to use the restroom, which is in another part of the Meeting House outside the polling room, they're likely to run across some quotes from George Fox and other Quaker figures, so I suppose we're offending here a bit, too.

Fred Flintstone,

If you took more than a feather to take out this clown, you would be using excessive force.

Dave, Nixon is the only Quaker who has ever offended me.

Hey Y'all,

Go easy on the Bram (Charlie, Chuckles, Thomas1, etc.) pathology. Very likely the little tike can't help himself:

“Our study shows that psychotic patients prefer an authoritative leader,” Lohse says. “If your world is very mixed up, there’s something very comforting about someone telling you, ‘This is how it’s going to be.’”

“Bush supporters had significantly less knowledge about current issues, government and politics than those who supported Kerry,” the study says.

I will wait for you by the monkey bars.

Is that where you blow guys for spare change?

Sorry, not interested.

Well Bram,

If you decide to keep posting here you'll get that testing for sure. Time will tell.

I would gladly test my knowledge about current issues, government and politics against any Kerry supporter

OK, let's go.

so, who exactly is "staying the course" bitch?

That would be you, fuckstick.

Am I the only one visualizing the Lucky Charms leprechaun right now?

Somehow, I envision another Wiki cut and paste about Bram Stoker, the father of Dracula.

How about a "winky face" emoticon, Chuckles?

Now, eat shit and die, asswipe.

No thanks, Chuckles.

Yes, Wiki is a trool's best friend.

This is really about getting rid of all Christian references anywhere near any kind of government operation.

No, its about getting rid of electioneering in polling places.

This is really about getting rid of all Christian references anywhere near any kind of government operation.

Isn't it interesting that we don't have to get rid of any Christian references in the U.S. Constitution... since there are none.

Who cares where you vote, as long as you vote? I only step into a church twice every even-numbered year. Doesn't make me uncomfortable.

Appearance of Our Lord in the Constitution,

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth.

Biblical references in the vernacular of former eras are nearly meaningless, however quoting them today in a political context is, in every case, an effort to confuse the ignorant and gratify the corrupt.

He probably has a life and a wife to have dinner with and all manner of other things in his life than obsessing all over a political thread. Seriously. Get help. Isn't it after midnight in Ireland? Shouldn't you be getting to bed so you could hit it again tomorrow?

Are you leaving already?

Bram,

Exactly. A common vernacular usage that might be found anywhere. But in George's case he just lays it on with a trowel wherever he can find it.

Too bad no one mentioned to him Meth is the Hebrew word for death.

More to the point, the US government cannot recognize or validate the religious interest of an organization so it can relate to them only in reference to their non-religious elements which are necessarily about their social organization and the advocacy of their social organization which, in the context of the United States, is a political organization.

Since there is no religion whose exclusive reason for being is disinterested charitable work and because they do not address public issues pragmatically but in reference to pre-existing ideological beliefs they hold eternal and changeless unaffected by pragmatism or evidence their inherent political interest is antagonistic to the institution of the US, and are therefore seditious.

I don't answer questions; I kick your ass with whatever answers I decide to share with you.

You're not in Ireland and you're not fooling anybody, Chuckles, so you can either shut the fuck up now or you can shut the fuck up later--it doesn't matter to me.

Whoa, I'm not the class president. I'm not ruling on anything, I'm just visiting here.

Chuckles,

Do you have something you want to say? What's with all the bullshit?

I don't think I've exactly held back. I think you are a liar and a moron, but I did give you points for style, remember?

The treaty with Tripoli in 1796 Article XI says

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." (emphasis is mine)

How many quotes from our founding fathers does it take to prove we are not a nation founded on Christianity?

The decision making process in democracy is the same as in science, trial and error, peer review, reproducibility and provable evidence. A religion is antagonistic to all of that.

(Because that isn't what a religion is all about despite what the 'believers' like to think. A religion is an art theory, an aesthetic of the physical world and how people exist in it allowing a sort of hypnotized heightening of neural elements associated with the immune system. It is not history, journalism, philosophy or science, and because you have exclusive and tyranical control over your own body it certainly isn't democracy.)

Please re-read all my posts above if you missed what I've had to say.

Why? Why revisit your bullshit?

Great part is that the fake Bram will probably be posting longer than either you or I, whittle baby, Pale Rider.

I'm not the one who bitches and whines, little man. When are you going to actually, you know, post something? I thought you claimed to be the most knowledgeable person around and that you were willing to debate any "Kerry supporter."

So, I win either way.

Oh, that's not delusional in any way. Nope.

Best you got, Chuckles?

Pale Rider,

For my two cents, you can post under any moniker you choose - You still make a great deal of sense with any name.

However, what this very stupid Chuckles/Charlie/Cheney/Alice/Don P/Roger/Norman/Jeffery/Bram-bles does not realize is that because of Jeffery going far past the line of decency, registration will be on the way very shortly. Then, this clown will have to post under one specific name and will not be able to play his games with constantly switching monikers.

The fool is not even pragmatic about trolling. He will be the first to bemoan registration. There is a saying on the street that a bum will fuck up anything meant to help him - So a troll will fuck up his play time which was given him/her/it by Kevin.

That is 196.024 x the answer to life the universe and everything.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. - John Adams

Sorry, cld. You're making valid points (I think you're one of the few to stay on topic) but Charlie-smashing started early this afternoon and I'm not gonna let this little bitch run anybody off the blog with his inanities and his amateur-hour strongarm tactics.

My post above should have said signed by John adams

Dude they are all fake Brams. And fake chuck's and fake jeffery's and fake thomas1's and fake doug m's and fake don p's. In the words of the immortal Elaine Benis: "Fake. Fake. Fake. Fake."

Donna Pissypants?

Is he back, too?

Think I'll pop this into every thread for the next hundred years,

An icon for the new era,

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2712/libertykissesjusticecb0.jpg

Aren't they all the same fucktard? They all look like they write the same paper to me.

Before Google you had to have a girlfriend who was an English grad student at term paper time. Google took a lot of melodrama out of my life.

I would be the FIRST to welcome registration. Then we can finally get rmck1 / Bob back. Pale Rider would LOVE that.

Bob/rmck1 who? Never heard of this person.

And, oh by the way, talk about being so stupid you can't even pretend to be someone else, Chuckles. Damn!

Can you just speed this up and implode or something? The second period just started and the Sharks and Wild are tied one-all.

Did you see Kramer go crazy on those niggers?

That was classy. Nice going, Chuckles. Gonna have to put that one in the archive.

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So, that was the FAKE Pale Rider who drove Bob off the cliff?!

How do you know I'm not bob/rmck1? :)

Anyone have Global's email address? If she showed up he would melt down into volcanic rage.

I am not Thomas1.

Yeah, we put that issue to bed earlier today.

"Bram" is really Thomas1/Charlie/Cheney/Chuckles/Jeffery/Jacques and, yes "Janet."

Yep--this cross dressing fuckstick once tried changing genders on us--I think it was Gregory who nailed "Janet" as really being Chuckles after, what, one or two posts?

What's the answer, Chuckles? How long did that handle last?

But of course, I've told people I live in Arizona, too.

Hell, the dimwit tried to pretend that he was from Blackhawk, Pennsylvania until I pointed out to him there was no such city.

What an idiot. I mean really. You just don't find stupid like that every day, ex-liberal's posts here notwithstanding.

To reeeally get a sense of his profound stupidity you have to revisit his old predictions and "analyses." You've never seen such an abysmal track record. Just for instance, he actually believed Harriet Myers was going to be elevated to the Supreme Court.

That's how dumb he is, and that's why he has to change his name all the time; he's been so fucking wrong about everything it's not only embarrassing it's humiliating, and it forces him to adopt new identities to keep trolling here.

Pathetic but true.

They all make the exact same denial: I am not...(insert thomas1/GOP/jeffery/charlie/chuck)

Once again:

Chuckles as Bram posted this:

I believe Washington Monthly is tax-exempt -- shouldn't churches be able to advocate in the political arena as much as Kevin Drum?

A post from the Chuckles hit parade:

Did you know that it is against the law for NON-PROFIT 501(c)(3) corporations to advocate for legislation?
Posted by: Thomas1 on September 21, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK

That was the kick he was on before the election; ironically enough, the REAL Norman Rogers started it and Chuckles co-opted the issue.

Poor Chuckles--did you send Norman a royalty check for ripping him off?

That Bob character kinda embarassed himself with thr Minerva posts, but at least he had the decency to stay slunk off.

Pale Rider:

Must you humiliate poor "Charlie" so much? It makes for a boring read, and your uncle Norman would rather explain to the misguided liberals how the Founding Fathers used the basis of the Enlightenment to found this great nation in the mold of a Democracy beholden to God and with a keen eye upon the precept of religious tolerance.

To take God from our government is to rend asunder the bonds which were formed so long ago. No, misguided libs--God exists in the bedrock foundation of this government and is ensconced there as if the visage of the Almighty himself were carved into the granite cornerstone of the US Capitol in three-inch deep letters.

This poor "Charlie" did in fact apprehend several memes that I brough to the discussion and use his grubby little hands to pervert them and make them less devastating. I have rained hell upon Kevin Drum and his pathetic blog commenters; I have defeated each and every single adversary who raised up against me--none more spectacularly than you, Pale Rider, you whiny cunt--and this is how I am to be remembered? As being the person who actually provided "Charlie" with his fodder to use against the pathetic liberals who pick their nose and try to post competently here?

Your uncle Norman begs to differ. And you libs--please listen up. God is firmly emplaced into the institutions of the US government. The US Congress, by law, cannot meet for a quorum until a Chaplain appointed by the Speaker of the House gives a blessing unto the assembled members of the chamber.

And you wonder can't govern. Look no further than your own debasement of the Congress. Can someone tell me why Nancy Pelosi has named the Reverend Jim character from "Taxi" to be the House Chaplain?

Pathetic, indeed.

That Bob character kinda embarassed himself with thr Minerva posts, but at least he had the decency to stay slunk off.

Minerva?

She is my housekeeper and my confidante. She recently stole a laptop computer and tried posting her cries and pleas for help and assistance on this blog.

Anyhoo, after the Border Patrol took her back to Honduras, I had to go out and find a new housekeeper.

His name?

Well, I won't spoil it for you libs. Suffice it to say, rmck1 is my new Mr. Belvedere. First honest dollar he's made in a decade.

And with Norman's re-emergence all is right with the world. It is 9:00 o'clock so I will now lock up the lab and head off for a quad-shot. I have to write a final. My parting wisdom I stole from another blogger somewhere...remember this: Carbon is dead.

Carbon is dead.

No, carbon can be mixed with living elements and can then be said to be alive.

Thought you were a scientist. Guess not. Your uncle Norman would be glad to teach you a little about science. Just remember to wear something with a short skirt and please--if you are so inclined, I would not protest if you were to bend over a lot.

Minerva's absence has made me a lonely man...lonely, oh, so lonely.

Carbon is dead

long live Carbon

To a biologist, carbon can be living - as in carbon-based life forms, of course. To a geologist carbon is dead, as in fossil fuels.

For the record, I actually have an Uncle Norman. He lives in the Castro and works in a drag-queen cabaret.

For the record, I actually have an Uncle Norman. He lives in the Castro and works in a drag-queen cabaret.

I'm salivating. Tell me more. And, before you do--please tell me what you're wearing.

Stinky old reeboks, torn jeans and a t-shirt from the Derek Trucks Band. And three days growth. I'm a guy Norman, and a straight one at that. Not narrow, but straight.

Well, we've decided how to deal with North Korea. We aren't going to let them have ipods.

Stinky old reeboks, torn jeans and a t-shirt from the Derek Trucks Band. And three days growth. I'm a guy Norman, and a straight one at that. Not narrow, but straight.

Bah! You tricked me, you delicious minx!

In my fantasies, you ride bikes and have flowing red hair. And you are most definitely not some dude somewhere else.

Pardon me, libs, if the pain of a lonely, 64 year-old man who can't find adequate domestic help is a source of hilarity for you.

And you wonder why your uncle Norman can't stay for long. Morons.

The ONLY items allowed on the walls at any election location should be instructions on how to vote.

And I'm not anti-religious. I'm for religious freedom. However, I am definitely against voters being coerced in any manner while casting their vote.

We're not some secular Communist or religious theologist country, are we?

We're a freedom-loving democracy, aren't we?

And from what I can tell, coercion happens all the time in secular Communist and religious theologist countries. Tyranny always is coercive...and corrosive to freedom.

Thus, keep polling places free of all political and religious coercive materials.

Keep it simple.

Only voting instructions, or voting-related materials on the walls.

Norman! You missed me! I hate to tell you this love, but I donated 28 inches of my hair to Locks of Love when I was getting all transformed for Joy's wedding. And with KC iced in, I won't be biking for a day or two. But nice to know I was missed. And to see charlie pretending he doesn't know who I am, too. Priceless!

Well, gosh. I voted in an elementary school surrounded by poorly drawn stick figure scenes and library books.

Did that somehow affect my vote?

"Have you seen how those kids draw? It's just awful! And what's with these Shel Silverstein books? He's so overrated. Stupid librarian. That's it. Screw that bond issue! I'm voting against."

Also, when given the opportunity (last year?) to vote on a gay marriage ban in Texas, I specifically sought out a church to go to so I could vote against the ban. I rather enjoyed that.

I voted against Missouri's gay-marriage ban in a church as well. It was delicious sensation.

You know, somebody has to say it - this place kinda sucks when Kevin goes away. WTF mates? Talk about phoning it in. If you guys can't do better, don't bother.

Die a little quieter, Charlie, we're trying to have a blog here. You just crave the humiliation, don't you? Do you like being spat upon and roughed up in bed, too? Do you get wood when the neighborhood kids jeer at you and toss their crumpled up juice boxes at their creepy old loser neighbor?

When you finally provoke the crusty old Marine down the street into beating your ass by your continuous stream of inappropriate comments, do you moan and cry out "Hurt me more, Mommy, hurt me more!" while he's pounding your wrinkled face?

The Baker Commission has reached consensus, but they are keeping it secret for another week; and they are trying to shift responsibility for this fuck-up to the Democrats by sending Lee Hamilton out as the advance man.

I think that Zach is correct, there is an inconsistency in allowing religious messages in polling places and perhaps even in using religious polling places themselves, particularly when you consider that the medium itself is a message.

Is a gay male going to want to cast his vote in a fundamentalist church that makes a name for itself crusading against homosexuality and what it arbitrarily defines as immoral relations? Is an unwed pregnant mother? Might the prospect be so intimidating that they choose not to vote rather than face the hostility? And wouldn't this effect even be amplified in a small town where there's less anonymity?

I don't know the answer but there do appear to be legitimate concerns here. Should a Jewish person have to vote in a mosque or a Muslim in a Jewish temple? Does anybody think the frail old grandmas who live in mortal fear of terrorists want to cast their vote in a mosque? People forget that it was only about sixty years ago that most Catholics believed they weren't even allowed in Protestant churches, true or not. While many of us may see this as a non-issue because the labels don't mean as much to us, there are plenty of Americans for whom their religion is very serious and who might be uneasy setting foot in a place of worship foreign to their experience and quite possibly offensive to their beliefs and sensibilities.

I think it's an open question. Religion can be a volatile issue for some people, and as a society we're still far from tolerant about others' beliefs. Maybe in light of this we should eschew churches as polling places, or if they are used an activity hall and not the church itself should be designated.

On the other hand, maybe exposure to different religions is just what people need to overcome their fears and differences and build bridges with people of different faiths and no faith. If that's the tack we choose then it's incumbent upon the churches to play nice and not abuse the opportunity by intimidating voters with heavyhanded admonitions.

I have voted in a lot of churches but always in a public area, never in the sachristy or the sanctuary.

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If you are an Educated Voter,you go to vote,you have your mind made up for this Candidate or that one.Why in the hell are you intimidated by a Cross or a Saying or the Cologne the Poll Worker is wearing.All this about Intimidatoin is a contious effort to make sure doubt is placed in the Publics Mind.Some how your Guy lost,so you got screwd by DICK CHANEY and KARL ROVE .If you are a Voting age Adult and see any Symbol of any kind in your way and it scares you ,go home,slit your wrists,call 911, please.I am so sick of hearing the rants of Pussies and Wimps that are Intimidated at the Polls.Some how I get the feeling that we are slowly being overcome by Candyass Liberals who cant get a grip on Reality.I can picture a skinny,timid,well groomed,College Degree in hand,wimp,he sees this thing a,a cross, OH MY GOD A CROSS!!! he pisses down his leg!!!!Give me a break. This Country was founded on Christian Principals and Faith.You are never going to change that.Never.Get over it or get the Fu#@ out!!!Also I didnt think we had ANY voting problems to fix I mean the Democrats won.I am sure all Voting was Legal,maybe the Dead People got it together this time!!

That was a pretty good Pale Rider post at 12:45 am. Too bad I was out like a light...

As you know, I don't answer questions; I kick your asses with whatever I decide to share with you. And it is certainly not incumbent for me to play nice ; )

So says the little man who shakes his fists at the world...

Burn all churches and abolish religion.

Christians should die.

Burn all churches and abolish religion.

Christians should die.

Posted by: Fuck Christ on November 30, 2006 at 4:11 PM | PERMALINK

Ironically enough, Christ forgives you for saying that and he loves you.

Deal with that!

I vote in a small bank branch, does this mean communists or any one else who hates capitalism is "scarred" by the bank signs advertising their interest rates on savings and investment accounts?

Hey "Fuck Christ," just be thankful to all the Christian men who died so your ignorant ass could say something so stupid.

You liberals can't even define religion. You say religion is a belief in a god. You hoe, start thinking. Someone thinking there is a god does not = a religion or a relgious person.

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Here are some (not so obvious) political consequences.

I have served as a lawyer troubleshooter in several elections. In my state there are rules about electioneering (signs, literature, etc.) in and near polling places on Election Day. Thousands of lawyers spend the day making sure those rules are applied fairly.

Churches have larger "campaign-free zones" and even have the ability to change the size of the zone. This has a huge effect on the election.

It would be better not to have voting in churches. But at the very least, they should have the same rules every other polling place has.

Or, lawyerDan, every Registrar can go find thousands of new polling places.

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