OPEN QUESTION TO THE COGNOSCENTI.

A Spam posting seems to be the perfect place to ask about the costs of buying a subscription to an upgraded discussion forum where people have to register and some form of moderation can take place.

Bearing in mind the upsurge of trolls with multiple personality disorders on this board something needs to be done and I gues the costs need to be established first.

Does anyone have any idea how much this sort of service would cost on an annual basis?

And what do we mostly use it for? Porn, Justin Timberlake downloads, and penny stock scams.

Well, isn't this a sign that all those rich African princes have finally made it out of their war-torn countries? Best $10,000 I've ever spent.

What I don't get is how there is anyone with the intelligence required to turn on a computer who would take stock advice sent to them in spam. I understand it only takes one, but honestly, who falls for that stuff?

No no, it's like how they say we only use 10% of our brains.

Plenty to be proud of!

In all honesty, I get almost no SPAM any more.

Between my ISP's filter, and my Outlook and Gmail filter, I get maybe one or two a week.

Gmail, in particular, seems to be really skillful at filtering out the crap. I recommend it.

Bad Rabbit - I would go for it. A modest fee would discourage the trolls with their sock-puppet brigades, that's for sure. Especially if they had to register each screen name individually and pay the fee up-front for each one. It certainly bears consideration.

Well Kevin,

If The Washington Monthly would like to spring for the cost of a blog that requires registration for comments, then maybe the spam wouldn't be such a pain in the ass to you.

But apparently I DID win the Lotto in some unspecified European country...so I'm going to buy a whole lot of penny stock and Viagra.

We resent the grouping of pr0n with both penny stock scams and Justin Timberlake.

I've found that Google GMail has more effective spam filtering (it even works on image spam) than any commercial product I've used. But still you'd think that any decent blogger software like, say, Movable Type would have some means for filtering out spam posts written in kanji

My penis has never been so enlarged!

Oh please. What is the greatest invention of mankind ever? Consensus answer: writing. And what is it used for? Advertising, invective, threats, petty legalisms, mindless screeds, Atlas Shrugged, you name it.

And yes, also Homer and Shakespeare and Joyce and and and.

If you actually were able to add it all up, I'd wager the garbage outweighs the gems by, oh, hundreds to one.

The net is no different. And neither are radio, TV, print, public speech -- name your medium.

Hooray for humans.

The internet is arguably the apex of human technological development, the most complex and paradigm-changing invention so far in the history of homo sapiens.

While the internet is, undoubtedly, an amazing invention which has massively affected the world... well, my Torts professor is want to lose himself in tangents on the amazing effect that the telegraph and railroad had on society.

Somehow the difference between pre-telegraph (where the battle of New Orleans was faught after the Treaty of Ghent) and post-telegraph, and pre-railroad (where it was a matter of months, and serious risk of life, to get from one side of the country to the other) to post-railroad (where it became a matter of days) seems somehow larger. The telegraph and railroad allowed man to conquer distance. All other invention up to perhaps the internet was simply a matter of improving those facilities by a matter of degree.

The glory of the internet is that I can go use wikipedia to look up the name of the treaty that ended the war of 1812 and not look like an idiot in my post on Kevin Drum's internet blog. This massive, world-wide, instantaneous ability to inform oneself is a paradigm shift, unquestionably. However, the ability to fit the library into one's home seems less significant than the ability to travel across the globe in very short periods of time.

"And what do we mostly use it for? Porn, Justin Timberlake downloads, and penny stock scams."
Yeah, and blogs too. Why'd you leave them out?

In this vein, read Dan Simmon's Hyperion where humanity gets universe-spanning instantaneous teleportation and uses it to build bigger shopping malls.

At our small higher education institution, our servers handle some 700,000 e-mail messages a week. Of this, approximately 89% is spam. At some other institutions in our state, the figure is closer to 95%.

I agree.....who in their right mind would actually take action to buy a stock based on an unwanted e-mail message from someone we do not know or, after all the years of warning, reply to the 33rd son of a deceased African dictator claiming that he has chosen the recipient from among everyone in the world to help him get a few kazillion dollars out of his country? WHO? We have to find these people and whack them alongside the head with a four by six.

Finally! A post on porn!

But your link just goes to a fully clothed asian guy doing work. To each his own I guess.

What's wrong with porno?
mmmm p-o-o-rno. porno good.

And what do we mostly use it for? Porn, Justin Timberlake downloads, and penny stock scams.

So... what's your point, exactly?

Alright, since the R-word came up again and people are discussing it, here's one of my periodic summations on the issue, since Kevin discussed this publicly and in email with folks.

WM uses an older version of MoveableType that neither supports sitebanning by IP nor email-verified registration. This is not Kevin's issue; it's his bosses at the magazine. And they claim that upgrading to a newer version of the blog software would be both prohibitively expensive *and* time consuming to hire some geek to do -- even if it was to, say, a cost-free shareware package instead of MoveableType.

So as much as Kevin would *like* to ban a few miscreants and as much as he could be talked into supporting registration -- the word from the WM honchos is that It Can't Be Done.

Even with contributions/fees from the users, because of the whole suite of effort that an upgrade would require.

And that is all for this public service announcement.

Bob

the most complex and paradigm-changing invention so far in the history of homo

To add to DJAnyReason...

I will grant you the "complex".

But "the most paradigm changing invention in the history of Homo Sapiens" ?

What about:
Fire
Agriculture
Animal Domestication
Clothing
The Wheel
Horseriding
Architecture
Seamanship
Writing
Gunpowder
The Steam Engine
Electricity
Nuclear Energy
etc...

Greetings
Karl Heinz

I just hope that the government factors in the increased spam when they make their next "hedonic" adjustment for the cost of computers.

The internet is really really great. For porn.

I read somewhere...possibly the comments section of this very blog...that the real market for spam is not the recipient of the spam email, but rather the person hiring someone to send the spam.

Not sure how likely this is, but it does seem plausible...

Get gmail.

What I don't get is how there is anyone with the intelligence required to turn on a computer who would take stock advice sent to them in spam. I understand it only takes one, but honestly, who falls for that stuff?

I had the same question about the Nigerian scam until I met one man, then soon after another, that had fallen for the scam. Both successful Republican Evangelical Christian businessmen.

Darn you Karl!

Your list just gave away all the good answers to the Blog question I was going to suggest Kevin do tomorrow. But we can still make it work.

Question: If the internet isn't the "most complex and paradigm-shifting invention in the history of homo sapiens" then what is, and for extra credit, why?

And I don't think we should limit it to species homo. Those birds and chimps invented those sticks to get the worms out of their holes, you know.

So as much as Kevin would *like* to ban a few miscreants and as much as he could be talked into supporting registration -- the word from the WM honchos is that It Can't Be Done ...
Even with contributions/fees from the users

I hear you, Bob, and as annoying as Charlie is I'd agree that there's little point in going to all that trouble just to ban him, but as a good liberal I believe you have to look at a cost/benefit analysis.

Yes, there's a cost to WM for getting some kind of handle on spam (although the technical excuses seem increasingly lame, IMO). Alternatively, there is -- or rather, I believe the WM honchos should realize -- that there's a cost for not doing it as well.

Hate to break it to you, Kevin -- I love you and all, man -- but I come here about 75% for the discussion, and only 25% to see whatever your take is on the latest post by Ann Althouse or the yo-yos at The Corner. And the trolling has really gotten out of hand -- especially the handle spoofing. Hell, I was even opposed to whatever genius was parodying tbrosz, and at least he or she usually used a recognizably fake email. And my perception is that the bullshit -- not the ordinary bullshit from the Bush Cultists, but the totally wack signal/noise ration -- has led to a decline in legitimate posts.

So is Washington Monthly also too cheap to install a spam filter, backup software or virus protection? Well, make no mistake -- someone is out to damage your blog, Kevin. It's insane to not take even minimal steps to protect your site's value.

The problem isn't with spam reaching the end node, but that it is taking up so much bandwidth. It's the routers that are getting clogged up faster than they can increase capacity. Never mind that it never reaches your mailbox, it's slowing down other data requests because they have to be sorted out. An analogy of an old-fashioned pneumatic-tube mail system where only every tenth "bottle" contains a real message and the other nine are stuffed with scams isn't far off.

I suspect the real scammers are those selling the spam software/services to the spammers. Nobody is easier to bilk than a person out to bilk somebody else.

Maybe if we had anti-spam laws with real teeth, like the California law that was gutted by the yes you CAN SPAM act, and if we tried actually enforcing them.

Indeed, Kevin. Don't forget Facebook and MySpace, which are turning our children into mindless zombies who spend hours linking to some idiot's personal page because they posted a cool (and often phony) picture of themselves there.

What I find ironic is that the Internet could make us the most knowledgeable and informed people in the history of the planet. Instead, people seem to be getting dumber and more misinformed, because they rarely pick up a book and instead go on-line and get opinion or misinformation posted by a Noah Goldberg or Michael Savage. How sad.

Kevin,

I agree totally with Bad Rabbit and Global Citizen. I enjoy your blogs but the trolls ruin it. They irritate me so much that I've been guilty more than once of getting out my flame thrower. It's why I spend most of my time over at the Daily Kos.

The Intenet is the greatest means of protecting First Amendment rights the world has seen. The MSM constantly dissemanates liberal propaganda, so ordinary thoughtful people like me can only freely express oursleves online.

What do you have against people like me, Kevin?

The internet is arguably the apex of human technological development, the most complex and paradigm-changing invention so far in the history of homo sapiens. And what do we mostly use it for? Porn, Justin Timberlake downloads, and penny stock scams. Makes you proud, doesn't it?

I recall having had similar thoughts about teevee back in the '50s.

I read bloggs at work because they've got the porn blocked
/snark

Every day I receive notices from Paypal and ebay that I need to update my registration information. I also receive similar notices from various banks all across the country. All they want is a credit card number. Never having bought anything on ebay, used Paypal or had an account with any of those nice banks I find it very friendly that they have emailed me the opportunity to give them a credit card number. Maybe I should introduce them to all the nice folks who have paying me 10% to shelter their Nigerian money in the account where I have parked my lotto winnings.

Folks welcome to the brave new world of the internet.

The sad thing about all of this, aside from the annoyance, is there are elderly shutins who respond to all this stuff. There always have been. They are the same folks who have kept generations of televangelists afloat.

". . . the most complex and paradigm-changing invention so far in the history of homo sapiens."

I can't tell if Kevin's joking here, but this is ridiculous. The internet is more "paradigm-chagning" than the first ever written text? Technology cheerleaders really need to get a grip.

They wouldn't send it if it didn't work. Even if 1 out of every 100,000 SPAMs gets a response, it still makes it worthwhile. Anyone caught responding to SPAM should be hit across the back of the head with a 2 by 4 and told not to do it again.

>>And the trolling has really gotten out of hand -- especially the handle spoofing.

Amen.

How soon they forget.

Damn straight I'm selfish - I will not share my Euro Lottery winnings with anyone - My vast legal team will be contacting the legal teams of anyone who attempts to share the wealth. Then, I can help more people in Nigeria.

And now back to more and more Tango spams.

Who benefits from Spam? Well, one group of people who benefit from it is the companies that are now being paid millions of dollars a year to filter corporate email and remove the Spam, e.g. Postini, MessageLabs, Ironport, et al.

If Spam disappeared, then these companies would all go out of business.

Bob, I hear what you've said regarding what Kevin has said regarding trolls, Kevin's bosses, and the upgrading to kill the trolls.

But I promise everyone this: the opinions of the WM editors is not unchangable. We're their audience. If enough of us act in concert, we own them, basically.

All that's neccesary is to make ourselves, basically, a large enough pain in the butt.

Here's how a *serious* campaign to force registration - or at least IP blocking (I actually have mixed feelings about registration, myself) would be done:

a) Start a website dedicated to it
b) get other leftist blogs to link to the website
c) get a petition to accomplish that purpose
d)if possible, get a leaker inside WM to provide membership rolls, or simply fill every comment board here with an open request to all WM subscribers to please write the WM and demand registration on Kevin's blog.
e) promise donations and user support.

Not neccesarily recommended, but if it really mattered enough, you could probably start a comment boycott. All you'd need are five dedicated people or so, to fill, say the first 50 posts on every comment with a repeated spam message saying :***********The League of Concerned Kevin Drum fans are implementing an anti-troll campaign to demand registration on this blog**. To sway the editors, we are requesting your help, leftist blogger: DO NOT POST COMMENTS OF ANY KIND IN THIS BOARD UNTIL THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED*********

Through a combination of spamming and boycotting, we could completely silence discussion on these boards. Leave it for the right-wing trolls entirely. That might get the WM editors' attention. At the very least, they might just turn off the comment feature entirely.
It might be an improvement.

If anyone is really serious about any of these ideas, you should email each other and get it going.

Movable Type started out life as shareware, but they charge a heft amount of $ for a license these days. Switching to WordPress would require some significant template customization, and if you don't have someone savvy to that stuff on staff, you have to pay them. And WM is not exactly rolling in $$$.

And yes, there's plenty of left-leaning techies out there with the skills to implement the changes needed, but this isn't like helping your buddy set up her personal blog. WM is a moneymaking entity. If you do work for then you ought to get paid for it.

Just to play Devil's Advocate--

The day after Washington Monthly really does change this site to the new format, the new software and requires registration and moderates comments, all you're gonna hear is--

IT WAS SO MUCH BETTER BEFORE!!!

kevin drum, this sux, sux sux!!!

I will *never* post here again until you remove the registration function and put this back the way that it was! Shame on you all!

Hey! It wasn't broke! Why did you fix it? GRR!

And so on and so forth...

Do NOT denigrate the porn.

Yes, there's a cost to WM for getting some kind of handle on spam (although the technical excuses seem increasingly lame, IMO). Alternatively, there is -- or rather, I believe the WM honchos should realize -- that there's a cost for not doing it as well.
Posted by: Gregory on December 6, 2006 at 4:29 AM

Absolutely. The worse the spamming and handle spoofing gets, the less I come here. The less I and others come here, the less hits this site gets, and the less hits, the less it can charge for advertising. Doing nothing, as Gregory points out, imposes its own economic costs as well.

And yes, there's plenty of left-leaning techies out there with the skills to implement the changes needed, but this isn't like helping your buddy set up her personal blog. WM is a moneymaking entity. If you do work for then you ought to get paid for it.

No, it's a non-profit. I think you could actually donate the work you do for them and get a tax write-off.

The problem is, fifty guys would show up and offer their services. Twenty-five of them would advocate doing it this way, twenty-four of them would advocate doing it the other way, and one guy would by jumping up and down, screaming his head off, that everybody was wrong and everybody was evil and everybody was out to get him and everybody was a tool of the establishment and that everybody was working for the secret international Jewish conspiracy to thwart his intended goal of helping the WM do things the right way...

And who needs that crap?

No different from TV, another medium of great promise

The less I and others come here, the less hits this site gets, and the less hits, the less it can charge for advertising.

Indeed -- does WM believe that Charlie and Al refresh-monkeying the site can really make up the shortfall?

and one guy would by jumping up and down, screaming his head off, that everybody was wrong and everybody was evil and everybody was out to get him and everybody was a tool of the establishment and that everybody was working for the secret international Jewish conspiracy

Yeah, but again, we already have at least one of those guys, with goodness knows how many handles / sock puppets.

Quoth trublu:
"It's why I spend most of my time over at the Daily Kos."

Yeah, but that place is such a friggin love fest, it kind of makes me sick. There's no dissent at all, unless you count arguments like "No, I'm sadder that Lamont lost" -- "No, I'm totally sadder than you!"

See, you go to Kos for the article, not the discussion. You come here for the discussion -- troll-baiting/-bashing and all. It's called "info-tainment" so get used to it.

BTW, while we're on the topic of spoofing:
"An analogy of an old-fashioned pneumatic-tube mail system..."
Saint Fnordius (aka Ted Stevens) should definitely be the first ban from your newly reconstituted blog.

From what I have read, the first known writing, developed by the Sumerians, was for receipts of economic transactions.

I was thinking there must be millions of comments posted on blogs around the world everyday. I would guess the number of comments posted daily is increasing at a very high rate. I do not know if that is something to be proud of, but it means people are communicating in a new way.

I think the 'mostly pron' thing is an urban legend. Cecil Adams does a pretty good job of disputing this in his Straght Dope column: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/051007.html

The internet is arguably the apex of human technological development...

No, its not, not even arguably. Its a point on a continuous climb, not an "apex".

...the most complex and paradigm-changing invention so far in the history of homo sapiens.

Er, no, that's pretty clearly not the case. It may be complex, but its certainly not the most paradigm-changing invention; Writing, the wheel, and fire are far and away ahead here, and I'd say movable type, the high-pressure steam engine, the electric light, and radio are all ahead of the internet, too.

Its perhaps the most recent major paradigm-changing invention.

And what do we mostly use it for? Porn, Justin Timberlake downloads, and penny stock scams.

While the first two of those may be legitimate, spam is probably a very small portion of the "use" of the internet in terms of man-hours intentionally devoted to producing or consuming it; there is lots of spam (whether of the "penny stock scam" type or otherwise) because its easy to produce in vast quantities automatically, not because it is a major focus of the "use" of the itnernet. Of course, its easy to destroy in vast quantities automatically, too; most spam emails are probably never seen by a human being at any point in their lifetime.

I don't know how spam relates to registration on a blog, but since somebody else brought it up I can throw in my two cents.

In a word: no. I visit a few blogs that require you to register to comment, and while I enjoy reading their stuff I'll go to other blogs before I'll register just to comment. First of all, It's a giant pain in the ass to have to register at every freaking blog I want to go visit just to be able to leave a comment on something I read. Second, has anybody ever noticed how conservative blogs seem to prefer requiring people to register? Does anybody think that's a coincidence? No, it's so it's easier for them to ban people that they don't get along with. If the cost of non-regististration requirements is some blog comment spam, well I can live with that.

See, you go to Kos for the article, not the discussion. You come here for the discussion -- troll-baiting/-bashing and all. It's called "info-tainment" so get used to it.

I think that is a very large part of the popularity of Political Animal. Registration will hurt that.

Monday night's thread about Liberaltarians started out as a spoof fest but turned into a decent comment discussion about liberalism vs. libertarianism. With registration the spoofing may go away, but would the diverse opinions and lively disagreement go with it?

I think my commenting falls into two categories: snarky drive by and journalizing. I think Political Animal serves me well. It is fascinating how blogs enable people to spontaneously find each other and create ether communities.

I admire Kos, but do not bother to comment there. Its community is more moderate and self regulating, which does not attract the political animal in me, which is admittedly iconoclastic and not inclined to agree with or follow the group. Ditto that with Move-On.

A 1-penny-per e-mail sent 'tax' would eliminate spam as we know it.

Collected funds could go to internet infrastructure -- whatever.

I, for one, would happily pay this tax.

I, for one, would happily pay this tax.

So would I, but what the hell -- let's exempt the first 1,000 emails. Then it'd hit spammers in a greater proportion to regular users.

And what do we mostly use [the Internet] for? Porn, Justin Timberlake downloads, and penny stock scams.

The conventional wisdom is that pornography drove the market for VCRs, back in the days when they were expensive high-tech. It's speculated that the demand for streaming video over the Internet was also due to pornography consumers. Thus it's fair to say that we've all benefited from pornography (some perhaps more directly than others, of course).

A 1-penny-per e-mail sent 'tax' would eliminate spam as we know it.

No, it wouldn't, since it wouldn't affect spammers who use botnets of hijacked windows PCs to send mail that doesn't trace back to themselves, or spammers who send mail from outside of the US, etc.

To effectively collect such a tax even within the US, you need email to be reliably accountable to a sender: but once you get that, you don't need a tax to end spam; accountable email systems would be spam free.

Very proud. Almost as proud as I am of some of my stocks: DWSN, MIND and PMID. Hint, hint... :)

90% of this spam (by volume) is INFECTED WINDOWS MACHINES RUNNING SPAM BOTNETS!

Yes - Microsoft is to blame, and users who run Windows and do not take measures to run securely, surf for pr0n as Administrator, click on ad banners and run IE without any form of popup blocking - all are to blame.

Kevin, you seem to have wandered off-topic into issues that have no apparent connection to hating on Republicans. Please re-focus.

Here is my problem. I run a grassroots political organization with an email list of 600. I AM NOT A SPAMMER. I send out information on meetings and elections etc.

Howerver, several host servers have pegged me as a spammer and will not deliver the email. I have segregated all email addresses into their own group by host servers (AOL YHOO etc). This has helped but has not solved the problem.

What does someone do in my case???????

Hostile;
The reason I frequent THIS site, and NOT Kos, is because Kos has a much higher volume of traffic in comments, and it's easy to get lost in the noise. I rarely got into a thread before there were 300-400 posts already.

Drum's site, I think, chases away a LOT of posters because of the trolls. This, ironically, seems to increase the signal to noise ratio.

Also, Kos spends way too much time commenting on "little races" - which, while I agree are important, I personally find boring. Kevin's more issue-oriented.

Though - I think it would be a benefit to switch to (free) slashcode, and institute moderation controls. People would have an incentive to keep their karma maintained, as I have on Slashdot lo these past 9 years. The Charlies of this world would fade into irrelevance. I'd have to keep the same name - but I don't change all that much.

ER, Fire Dog Lake has too many commenters also, making it difficult to have discusions or running sparring episodes. I find the comments there boring. FDL also moderates over trifles, which I find annoying. I complained about TalkLeft's censorship and was admonished. FDL also closes comments before the thread has run its course.

I am not a fan of censorship and do not like the group think or cliques of Kos, which some seem to think will keep inflammatory comments at bay. I like inflammatory comments and I make them myself.

My sister was under the impression Karma occurs for behavior done in this life. I always thought Karma was about past lives' consequences being punished/rewarded in this or future lives.

After the invasion of Iraq began I made many comments endorsing our soldiers to frag their commanders. I would have been voted off the island at Kos, FDL, and was at TalkLeft for that. Do not even bother making complaint about Israel at TalkLeft, it is taboo. At Gilliard's News Blog one is just called an asshole, which I am fine with. I admit being a little disappointed more fragging has not taken place, but that is the price of having an all volunteer military.

Kevin,

Yeah, that wheel, written language, and steam engine thingies really pale in comparison.

Extradite:

Oh c'mon, OBF, you use a jillion handles (although, granted, always with the same email).

I tend to take a moderated view of registration. If enough people want it, I'd happily go along with it; I remember when we upgraded in the middle of the primary at Howard Dean's blogforamerica, and it improved things immeasurably, because everybody and their brother was trying to take down the frontrunner at the time.

But I also see Pale Rider's POV that there are unintended consequences, and even basic registration might drive a few good contributors away. Whether the loss of those people would outweigh the absence of a CharliFest is, I think, an open question -- though I tend to lean towards the side that it wouldn't. Spoofing really *has* gotten out of hand recently.

One nice thing about the new BFA registration system was that though you had to register with a handle, you could change it from post to post. What you *couldn't* do is change it to a registered handle or to somebody's handle currently in use. That seems to be the best of both worlds; allowing the anonymous snark or goof posts, while protecting people from having their main handles stolen.

What I don't support is glasnost's approach. First, human nature being what it is, it would only involve a handful of like-minded grizzled regulars going through all the trouble to destroy Kevin's blog in order to save it. This alone makes it undemocratic.

Mainly, though, I oppose most forms of counter-blogging. Trolls are trolls and spam is spam; I draw no distinctions between "good trolls" and bad, or between disruptive spam and spam for a purpose. One of the biggest delusions I've seen on this blog lately is a belief by some otherwise principled regulars that you can drive the trolls away by copping their methods. I think we've seen the results, and the results have been pure freaking anarchy -- and, surpise surprise, Charlie's still here and loving every minute of it. "Norman Rogers" was the best example of that. Look, I have no problem with parodies of an absurd reactionary. But when it turns out that "Norman's" purpose was to troll liberals, to "toughen them up" -- I'm sorry, that's balls-out trollish grandiosity every bit as obnoxious as Charlie, IMHO.

Maybe because I'm not particularly good at them (being pretty much too much myself to be comfortable or adept at playing that game) I don't much like spoofs or handle changing. I think it's really sort of immature when good regulars choose to snark in an anonymous handle. It doesn't make the target take these gems of wisdom any more seriously -- in fact, quite the reverse. You wanna really spank somebody or shame them into doing the right thing -- say it in your known voice and stand on principle.

But that's only a personal preference and I realize people are going to post how they see fit, especially under the current dispensation. For the record, I'd kick in a contribution or a registration fee because I really like this blog -- but I entertain no illusions that Kevin, we or both can change the minds of his employers. Especially by trying to make the blog worse rather than just proceeding with the discussion.

Bob

You wanna really spank somebody or shame them into doing the right thing -- say it in your known voice and stand on principle.

Yeah, we tried that with you and it didn't work.

Bob, I mentioned the Liberaltarian post earlier and think it somewhat instructive regarding troll spoofing. I made a drive by comment then I read the earlier comments, as is my MO. The spoofing of the comments by anonymous made me laugh, but then I wrote a longer comment describing my thoughts in more detail on the subject, even though someone spoofed my first comment immediately. When I came back to the comments the next day, it seemed the thread did not devolve into a spoof fest but did become a good discussion and I made more comments. My point is, like yours, that engaging in honest commenting actually stifles the trolls and the spoofing. I agree with you that becoming troll-like only encourages more of that type of behavior.

Hostile:

Pretty much in agreement. I've learned after hard experience that ignoring truly noxious individuals is the only way to proceed. It's contrary to human nature -- and I don't begrude anybody who feels like responding to whatever -- but in terms of practicality, it's the only thing that has a chance of working. Trolls or otherwise, people post to get responses. If they don't get responses, it's less likely they'll post if they have nothing to offer that's germane to the discussion. Human Nature 101.

Pale Rider:

I'm probably taking a risk by responding to this, but I'll say it anyway. Look, Pale, I understand why you just snarked at me. I don't begrudge you. After all, you've been one of the biggest advocates for counter-blogging here -- and it's probably kind of humiliating to see the strategy fail so badly. And it was as preordained to fail as Bush invading Iraq. You don't create less chaos by creating more chaos. You can't "annihilate evildoers" on a forum in cyberspace -- only insult them and maybe piss them off enough to respond in kind. Nobody's really dependent on their standing on a particular blog for their self-esteem (one can only hope). And the ones who *really* need to go are insensate to criticism, anyway -- so the ones who do say enough of this, this atmosphere is too toxic, are the ones you want around.

Believe me, I've learned some lessons here and have incorporated them in my recent incarnation. I'm not one of the ones who are insensate to criticism. And thank goodness there's Pynchon blogging when this place gets too much. But *making* the place "too much" for some people winds up degrading the experience for so many others that even if you did somehow manage to drive away the genuine sociopaths that it'd be like returning to the field of battle after a nuclear war or an anthrax attack.

Hostile and I are in total agreement. You manage this stuff by just trying to stick to the issues under discussion -- or at the very least by not attempting to overly personalize criticism.

Bob

rmck1: Look, I have no problem with parodies of an absurd reactionary.

...once you finally let go of your myriad breezy pronouncements that "so and so is for real, not a parody." This goes on and on despite your well-documented inability to recognize voices and writing styles, enormous evidence of other posters' parodic intent and even outright confessions of the parodists.

And recent evidence would indicate that you do have a very large problem with parodies of an absurd reactionary...when, despite every pity hint, freebie and wake-up call it was possible to give you, you wouldn't accept that Norman is a parody--and you reacted with volcanic rage, panic and neediness when you finally got it.

But when it turns out that "Norman's" purpose was to troll liberals, to "toughen them up" -- I'm sorry, that's balls-out trollish grandiosity every bit as obnoxious as Charlie, IMHO.

You bring up Norman so often that it's hard not to assume we have a little obsession cooking over there in New Jersey. May I suggest that it doesn't make much sense to trade one death-gripped misconception for another? In other words, why would you take the "toughen them up" statement as gospel when it's been demonstrated to you over and over that the very talented and chameleonic author of the remark makes a lot of contradictory comments, some of them genuine and others simply for banter, laughs or to make a point?

People have been doing Norman parodies for an entire year now. Despite his recent acceptance of your much-proffered invitation to help you make a fool of yourself, he's not all about you, nor is he only about toughening up liberals. And he's been remarkably kind to you since your meltdown; you notice that he never engages you, while you obsessively snipe at him whenever you encounter him.

As you continue to snipe at Pale Rider--you're doing it now, I see, as I preview this comment. It's a compulsion that's embarrassing to watch, your desire for a do-over that isn't going to happen.

Time to let it go, Bob. Continuing to pick the scab just makes you look more foolish. You'll feel better if you stop taking all of this--and yourself--so seriously.

shortstop:

If cyberspace were only a court of law ... but it isn't; it's the ultimate postmodern environment, where literally everything is interpretation.

What you cite here wouldn't stand up to a review of the recent threads, where I assiduously ignored Norman save for a two-line dismissal -- including the followup attempt to suck me back in. I only bring up Norman because it's an example of the sort of techniques employed in the roundhouse flamewar against PR that was happening for the past few days, and in which I had only the smallest of peripheral roles -- pointing out spoofers and defending regulars, most especially including PR.

I meant what I said a few days ago that I have no bad blood against PR -- but I do disagree with counter-blogging as a strategy to deal with trolls. And since the thread was talking about trolls, I merely stated my views on the subject. Pale snarked at me; instead of returning it, I took the opportunity to make a case against counter-blogging.

This is really a lot less personal than you're attempting to read it.

I don't share your view that Norman is all that clever; he has a schtick, but it's grown kind of old. The mistake I made was to believe that a liberal spoofer would go so completely out of his way to construct a persona that looked genuine, for the expressed purpose (and the confession is in archive) of trolling regulars, not only yours truly. The fake tbroszes, Al's Mommy's and such play it exclusively for laughs. I made the naive mistake to discount that level of grandiose malice from a liberal regular ...

And I have learned from the experience, and most assuredly consider those events over.

If you'd like to wonder about the length of my response -- consider the length of the one which provoked it. I'm merely setting the record straight from my own perspective.

As always in cyberspace, YMMV.

Bob

shortstop:

And let me add as a final comment that your interpretation of *past* events wouldn't stand up to fair-minded scrutiny, either.

It's all in archive if anyone cares -- and it is nice to know that they don't, especially.

Bob

Commenting, like blogs, is journalizing in public. It opens your thoughts up to analysis and criticism, while it also helps you to organize and clarify what you may never have written down and reconsidered. Commenting is also like a bull session, where you throw out ideas and see if anything is saluted while going up the flag pole. Commenting is also a good place to find adversaries to spar with or insult. I have only made comments at blogs since the invasion of Iraq and it has allowed me to express my impotence to prevent it and the anger I feel about its consequences. The ability to express these emotions publicly is a bonus. The reason I prefer PA is they are not bound either by a moderator or peer pressure like those other 'greasy kidstuff' blogs.

And let me add as a final comment that your interpretation of *past* events wouldn't stand up to fair-minded scrutiny, either.

Yeah, because as we know, you don't project at all and you don't have the slightest bit of self-awareness or shame, do you?

... in which I had only the smallest of peripheral roles -- pointing out spoofers and defending regulars, most especially including PR.

Didn't see the exchange in question, but am amused that even now, despite all historical evidence to the contrary and a number of very public corrections, you believe you're able to make these distinctions with even minimal accuracy.

Of course the "confession" (telling choice of words, that) is in the archives. As I just noted, so are a whole lot of other statements that contradict it.

How do you keep trusting your latest deeply-held conviction after so many of the previous ones were proven wrong? This time you're sure you've gotten to the bottom of Norman--and Pale Rider? This time's really the time, honest, huh?

No, you haven't learned. You don't. But I am glad to hear you're trying to let it go. I look forward to your posts beginning to reflect that.

P.S. on yours of 5:55--Yes, it's all in the archives, and I'm comfortable with it all. I'm glad you've rethought your policy of sending readers to your meltdown thread. It was inexplicable that you should have wanted more people to see you like that.

Good luck, Bob.

I have melted down here many, many times. But, to keep the hair cream analogy in play, I came back, and I'm glad I did.

shortstop:

Look, this is just basic harrassment. There's nothing particularly moral about it. That's, in fact, why you've lain off me since I've been back. You console yourself by re-labeling the guilt you feel for acting so malicious as "pity."

I don't care who sees any of the threads. They stand as a record of nothing any nobler than something you might read in Lord of the Flies.

And, deep down, you know it.

Bobb

Uh huh. Some people, rational and balanced people, might say to themselves, "Gee, when I make gratuitous pokes at Pale Rider, as I've done for months now, people always come in to call me on it. Maybe I should stop that crap."

But not you, Bob. No, you see anyone calling bullshit on you as "harassment" and Lord of the Flies action. Has anyone ever been as big a victim as you have? Man, did you see that Norman parody? That was some kind of malicious shit, that wildly over-the-top fake rich Republican! They only warned you he was fake like 800 times--those bastards blindsided you! It was a mob action, I tell you!

It's not "pity," Bob. The phrase is "exasperated pity." Do you even begin to understand the difference?

Here's a hint: the first one implies compassion for someone who's been thrown into a bad situation through no fault of his or her own. The second one implies combined compassion and annoyance for someone in a bad way whose ego prevents him from helping himself.

Now I'm heading out for the evening and I'm done with this silliness. I'm returning to the only sane policy--one which I've followed for many months, not since "you've been back," whatever that means (were you gone more than a day?)--not engaging with your nonsense or even reading most of your posts. Get it together, and move on.

shortstop:

Wow. And you accuse *me* of projection and lack of self-awareness. Shortstop, the bottom line is that you're an extremely angry person -- I've known this since we started posting together -- and you're looking for a safe place to dump it. You misread stuff immediately upthread, let alone what happened a month ago.

I did not, in any way, take a shot at Pale Rider in this thread. He took a shot at me, and I deflected it into an argument for why I think counter-blogging is a bad strategy for dealing with trolls. That's the objective issue, and Norman only happens to be the apotheosis of those sorts of tactics. I used him as an example of a general tactic that resoundingly failed over the past few days in a war I had little to do with. Norman can come back and write all the parody he wants, but Norman's days of *trolling* are over. And that's to the good.

And here you are, attempting to ressurect a flamewar from a month ago while simultaneously telling me that I "can't let it go?" If that's not projection, shortstop, then what is?

Look, I'm not going to lay out the anatomy of what happened. You all know it. It was a coordinated attack in an attempt to drive me out of here, and you were all in touch by email -- and you should know I have confirmation of this.

So yes, this was like The Lord of the Flies. It was done to no greater purpose than to get a reaction from me -- and congratulations, you did. The fact that my getting upset is what vouchsafes your amusement is what marks it as malicious.

These techniques don't work against Charlie, let alone against a regular like me.

And that's the take-home lesson of my initial comment to Pale Rider.

Bob

Wow. And you accuse *me* of projection and lack of self-awareness. Shortstop, the bottom line is that you're an extremely angry person -- I've known this since we started posting together -- and you're looking for a safe place to dump it. You misread stuff immediately upthread, let alone what happened a month ago.

No, shortstop is not an angry person and you're an asshole for even trying to go there. What shortstop is, and this is difficult for you to understand, is tired of your shit.

You had your ass handed to you. Plain and simple. You are not man enough to admit it--we had to stop the joke because you were melting down. We had you in a place and time of our choosing, executed the plan, and turned you into swiss cheese. You were pinging off the walls, ready to explode, and I talked you down, didn't I? Go back and read the thread, Bob--I brought you back and brought you down like you were on some kind of acid trip. Don't think I enjoyed that--oh, no. No. What I wanted to do...you're lucky, Bob. You think you know everything, but you don't. You have no idea how lucky you are.

Had it been entirely up to me--Pale Rider--I would have continued it until you exploded and had to check into Bellevue, you idiot.

I did not, in any way, take a shot at Pale Rider in this thread. He took a shot at me, and I deflected it into an argument for why I think counter-blogging is a bad strategy for dealing with trolls.

Stop--yes you did, asshole, and you can't stop taking shots because you think you're the aggrieved party. WE'RE the aggrieved party--we've had to put up with your endless drama and your endless dimestore analysis of things you know nothing about.

That's the objective issue, and Norman only happens to be the apotheosis of those sorts of tactics.

No, it's a parody. If you can't spot that it was a parody, you're a moron. It was over the top and satirical and you weren't smart enough to figure it out. A joke was played and you did not have the ability to pick up on it.

Do you know what the funniest part of it all was? We would have a half dozen Norman posts and then I would pop on there and go Bob, you idiot--it's Pale Rider doing Norman And then you would go on and on and on--ad nauseum and at length,oh, no, it couldn't possibly be Pale Rider, he's too literal minded and he's not talented enough. And what causes you the most grief to this day is knowing--knowing--that Pale Rider did the posts (about 75% of them) and you couldn't figure it out. And it would have died on the first day if you had any brains--but no, you had to be the stupidest fucking guy on the planet and go, there's no way Pale Rider could do that--he's simply not equipped to do Norman.

Guess what asshole? It would appear that I am.

And you did this at least ten times. And we were screaming, hysterical with laughter about it.

I used him as an example of a general tactic that resoundingly failed over the past few days in a war I had little to do with. Norman can come back and write all the parody he wants, but Norman's days of *trolling* are over. And that's to the good.

You're not qualified to say--you're really not. You've never demonstrated the ability to accomplish anything at all--you just post and post and post and everything that's wrong--you project that back onto anyone who challenges you. People fisk the crap out of your logic, analysis and use of the facts and it tears you to pieces; it gets to the point where you are cursing them out and maniacal.

How many meltdowns have you had in the last three months alone? Shall we count the number of times you went ballistic when someone thought you were using a sockpuppet?

And here you are, attempting to ressurect a flamewar from a month ago while simultaneously telling me that I "can't let it go?" If that's not projection, shortstop, then what is?

Give it a rest--you're projecting. You can't let it go. I reached a truce with you and you broke it--and you gave your smug, self-satisfied *shrug* about it--you're the one who's projecting. No one cares either way what happens to you anymore. You were give a mulligan way back when and now that's eating you alive. You got punked, you got burned, you got roasted and we had to shut the joke down and pull back the curtain to keep it from getting out of hand.

Now you walk back over that and think you won? You're pathetic. Can't you see? Every time you get caught 'projecting' your one and only defense every single time is to say, "I'm not projecting, you're projecting."

That's projecting, dumbass--it's what you're famous for.

Look, I'm not going to lay out the anatomy of what happened. You all know it. It was a coordinated attack in an attempt to drive me out of here, and you were all in touch by email -- and you should know I have confirmation of this.

Really? It wouldn't be because everyone who was in on it told you that, would it? Duh.

Name names or shut the fuck up. Go ahead. You name who supposedly told you this. Name the person or admit that you just lied.

So yes, this was like The Lord of the Flies. It was done to no greater purpose than to get a reaction from me -- and congratulations, you did. The fact that my getting upset is what vouchsafes your amusement is what marks it as malicious.

You are the malicious one--we were trying to get free of your malicious behavior. You're not stable or competent to post here on a level you would like to claim for yourself. All of us comment here and then go back to our lives--you don't.

These techniques don't work against Charlie, let alone against a regular like me.

So you're now a 'regular?' Well, that's fucking hilarious--you've always been extra careful NOT to claim that status (and it's meaningless, by the way--it only means something to you) and go out of your way to kiss ass.

Remember my line, get your nose out of my ass, Bob?

You're a pest; nothing more. You're a canker sore that won't go away. You're unstable, you have serious fucking mental issues and you inflict this upon us. Why would anyone care whether you live in a halfway house with psychopaths, Bob? That's the kind of thing a normal person would, I dunno, just not talk about on a public blog thread infested with trolls like Charlie.

And that's the take-home lesson of my initial comment to Pale Rider.

Which you haven't learned anything from.

And we're right back to where we were the day you showed up, Bob. I want to go wash my hands every time I deal with you--you're that awful to engage in any kind of discussion.

You're an asshole.

Pale Rider:

> Name names or shut the fuck up. Go ahead. You name who supposedly
> told you this. Name the person or admit that you just lied.

This is awfully Jason-ish, Pale. It's precisely what he
said the night he flew into an apoplectic rage (I was calmly
rebutting the guy) and a mutual friend asked him to lay off --
and he left the blog for awhile, before plotting his revenge
against me by cultivating the Norman persona. Or at least
so he claimed while posting under your handle as Jason.

So I'll say the same thing I said that night. Why would
you think I'd betray the confidence of a friend, Pale?

I will say this, though. This person said they would not betray
confidences. So I don't know for a fact if you and Jason are
the same person or whatall. But I do know there was a deliberate
conspiracy involved. Of how many people? Who are they exactly?
This person doesn't know and I certainly don't, either.

Bob

You really got *that* ticked off because I couldn't believe that Pale Rider could write the Norman posts?

I was laughing too hard to be ticked off.

Sorry, Bob.

I know how you swore you'd never get into another flame war of a negative type and all, and I realize--you're just a pathetic asshole who will continue to attack people because, well, that's what you do--but Sixers/Bulls just came on after an anemic Holy Cross/Duke ballgame and that's just a tad bit more interesting right now.

Had Duke actually been forced to play a real team tonight, I wouldn't have wandered in at all.

Either way, sure, Bob. You win, you scored all the hits, and you're a regular now. Oh, we're not worthy to read you, Bob, and, gosh, I'm so intimidated by your talent and your ability with words Bob.

One thing I know--I can't ever 'troll' you again Bob. Because if there ever was a next time, there actually would be a coup de grace, and I just don't have the interest in it anymore.

Once someone has to give you a pass, it's kinda over at that point. All I have is pity for you.

Is there a Bob McKeown theory, by the way? That somewhere there's an asshole out there with that name who just can't stop crying into his sleeve and acting like a whiny ass titty baby with no milk to suck?

I mean, Jesus, Bob.

Get a life.

Pale:

You also posted as mercuryman242 for a little while, didn't you. Just so you'd have an excuse to email me so you could get my real name.

I'd appreciate it if you don't use it on the blog, thanks.

Bob

PR - "you had to be the stupidest fucking guy on the planet and go, there's no way Pale Rider could do that--he's simply not equipped to do Norman. Guess what asshole? It would appear that I am. And you did this at least ten times. And we were screaming, hysterical with laughter about it."

Wow. You're really creative, Pale Rider. And such a tough guy, making fun of old Bob. Does that go with your wannabe makebelieve "Army" career? Grow up and get a fucking life, you loser.

"trex":

*rolling eyes*

Bob

Pale:

Enjoy the game.

To conclude I'll just say that I didn't attack you, Pale.

I criticized your technique of counter-blogging and you massively overreacted to it.

The criticism, however, still stands on the merits.

Goodnight.

Bob

I'd appreciate it if you don't use it on the blog, thanks.

*shrug*

Stuff happens.

;)

A new record of dimwittedness in nerdistan, this thread. Pale Rider and Bob fighting it out for the title of all-time world record of lame.

A new record of dimwittedness in nerdistan, this thread. Pale Rider and Bob fighting it out for the title of all-time world record of lame.

I actually agree with you there.

Seconded.

Bob

Pale:

You know doing that was totally not cool. It was an invasion of my privacy, by deception.

How you can rationalize stuff like that I truly have no idea. I wouldn't dream of doing something like that to somebody I disagreed with on a blog.

You really need to look deeply into this thing you have for attempting to "annihilate" people in cyberspace, Pale.

It doesn't reflect well on the values you claim to hold.

Bob

Ethics? You want to lecture some other human being about ethics?

Project much?

Pale:

That's correct, Pale. I'm lecturing you about the ethics of using a fake email address to gain the confidence of somebody for the sake of learning stuff about their personal life off the blog.

That you'd even try to return that charge in my direction is what is classical projective identification.

Bob

I'm lecturing you about the ethics of using a fake email address to gain the confidence of somebody for the sake of learning stuff about their personal life off the blog.

Which only happened in your imagination, but hey--since nothing you've said tonight makes any sense, what the hell, Bob?

What else are you going to accuse me of? Oh, that's right--you're just going to project every fuck up you've ever made on to me so that you can get yourself back in the warm, happy place that keeps escaping from you.

What the hell does all this shit have to do with anything? What are throwing around? I mean, what the hell are you talking about?

Freak out much?

You also posted as mercuryman242 for a little while, didn't you. Just so you'd have an excuse to email me so you could get my real name.

What?

No, not me, but ????

Did I kidnap the Lindberg Baby and sink the Lusitania as well?

Pale:

I mean, look. That's the whole crux of the argument. You think counter-blogging is cool. You think learning stuff about who trolls really are is perfectly fair game. I saw you doing this in the flamewar the other day.

I don't. I don't think it's my business who anybody is off the modem unless they care to tell me about it. Now -- I did respond to this mercuryman person and I know full well I have my real name in the field on emails. So I took a chance; I don't know who this guy is.

But you took that information and spilled it out publicly.

I'd never dream of doing anything like that. If I found out somebody's name irl from an email, I don't care how much I disliked this person, I'd keep it to myself.

That's a clear difference of opinion on cyberspace ethics. No projection on my part whatsoever.

Bob

Dude--you're out of your mind.

You worked for Dean and Corzine--you repeatedly put the most obvious and clear details about your identity all over these threads, since day one. Thus, your name is all over the web.

That's Pale Rider 101, dude--associating stated relationships and performing basic relational analysis.

Sorry, don't know what the big deal is, but whatever.

Project much?

Pale:

Okay, fair point. Maybe you didn't spoof that mail.

But I asked you to keep my name off the blog. You apparently got it from somewhere, and didn't deny that charge when you first responded to that post.

Not an unreasonable request, when you think about it. And not an unreasonable assumption to make, given your initial response.

Bob

I'd never dream of doing anything like that. If I found out somebody's name irl from an email, I don't care how much I disliked this person, I'd keep it to myself.

Oh, now that's the line of the night. THAT'S the biggest line of BULLSHIT ever.

You have no qualms whatsoever about spilling lies, bullshit and personal details all over the blog--

Hello? It's why I think you're an asshole.

Pale:

No, my name is not all over the web. Certainly I did nothing in cyberspace for Corzine.

If I somewhere inadverently slipped up and posted my name publicly -- how would you find it without being able to search for it through tons and tons of rmck1 posts?

Still, it's not an unreasonable request. Certainly something I'd honor for you if I happened to "stumble across" your real name.

Bob

Pale:

Personal details? There's one incident which is ambiguous and has since been corrected in email. Apology accepted, case closed.

Lies? Nope. Certainly not deliberate. Bullshit? A matter of interpretation.

Bob

You apparently got it from somewhere, and didn't deny that charge when you first responded to that post.

Four weeks after you started posting, I think.

I want you to understand something--I took the initials "rdw" and the details he freely shared with us on the blog and linked him to the website where Wooten could register as a former crewman on the Navy Supply Ship that he once served on in the early 1970s. I don't know what he did with the info, but it was like, a basic google search and then analyzing the years which he served, the known supply vessels that plied the Atlantic and then the rosters posted on the association web page--vets groups do this all the time to make contact once again that was lost before the advent of the Internet. Wooten and I had a laugh over it and it was no big deal--it was like, cool, he could catch up with some people he served with. It wasn't done out of malice--although I secretly wished to find something that said Wooten was always telling us about the Illuminatti and the scourge of liberalism...

I mean, what the fuck? You think we're all just idiots out here or something?

Who do you think I am? Oh, that's right.

I'm not "talented" enough to write the Norman parodies.

Still the most hilarious goddamned thing ever--seriously, I was never pissed--it's hard to get pissed when you're rolling on the floor laughing.

Certainly I did nothing in cyberspace for Corzine.

OK, William Gibson--

"cyberspace?"

What the fuck?

How many places were you freely posting in 2003 and 2004 without worrying whether someone would find out who you were?

I mean--are you clueless?

Pale:

You can't blow one ambiguous incident up into some kind of pattern, Pale.

Bob

Certainly something I'd honor for you if I happened to "stumble across" your real name.

????

You? With no ethics whatsoever?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

You can't blow one ambiguous incident up into some kind of pattern, Pale.

?????????

My brain hurts not thinking about how confusing you are.

No, my name is not all over the web.

Google:

Results 1 - 10 of about 915,000 for [redacted]

Pale:

I started messaging in the BBS era. "Cyberspace" was a common expression then for multi-node BBSs, which were a novel thing prior to the internet.

'03 and '04 I was posting on DFA pretty much exclusively. I never gave my full name out on the blog as I recall. But if I did let's say -- how would you freakin' find it without going through every one of my posts, one-by-one? You wouldn't know what to look for in a keyword search ...

It's actually a technical question more than anything else.

Bob

Pale:

Of course "my name" is all over the net. It's not hugely common -- but I think there's an MSM television commentator with it somewhere.

The question is, are any of those hits *me*.

I mean, sheesh ...

Bob

Pale:

Uhm, you'd have to substantiate that charge with something more than differences of opinion.

Bob

Pale:

Not "prior to" the internet -- prior to the internet becoming ubiquitous for messaging.

Bob

Seriously, Bob:

Do you really think I'm going to tell you the details of how I can collect, analyze and interpret data, especially since I was trained to do so by---fill in the blank---

Noooooo, sorry.

Thanks for playing though.

Uhm, you'd have to substantiate that charge with something more than differences of opinion.

You know what you did back in June and I'm not going to spell it out for you. You know you got taken to task for spilling personal info out onto the blog and you know EXACTLY what it was about and who objected, so shut the fuck up.

Pale:

As I said, that issue is closed. Emails exchanged, apology accepted.

It's one incident that had an ambiguous interpretation.

One incident does not a pattern make.

Bob

He's a military guy, knows a lot about military history and seems to have been friends with a lot of the same people that you like to banter with.

No, but?????

What the fuck are you blathering about?

There are about fifty of us that fit that description--there are tons of ex-vets on BOTh sides of the debate.

You gotta stop melting down like this--it's just...pathetic.

Trolls are unavoidable if you wan't to get comments outside of the center-left box of this site. Registration would drive the trolls off and turn the comments into boring regurgitated pap. When Al, Charlie, joe shmoe or the like go off into lala land ignoring them is the best bet.

I don't have the stomach to go over to little green footballs or similar sites to wade through the hateful and selfish claptrap to get an idea where the opposition stands on an issue. The only members of that set interested in posting here are naturally going to be folks looking to start a fight, i.e. trolls. As they usually stick to topics they think they can win, their blustering can be informative.

The quality their commentary during the lead up to the last election was quite interesting.

Pale Rider:

I'm not asking you to compromise national security, for fuck's sake. It's a general question. If I have things to fear from TIA or Carnivore, I certainly have similar things to fear from private citizens, and it's perfectly appropriate to enquire how somebody could determine one's rl name if it was revealed once out of, say 1000 blog posts.

Bob

As I said, that issue is closed. Emails exchanged, apology accepted.
It's one incident that had an ambiguous interpretation.
One incident does not a pattern make.

NO! No that is NOT the case and you know it.

You have SHIT all over any apology you made and you have SHIT all over any sincerity you may have expressed for what you did and you have SHIT all over every attempt to reconcile or smooth things over.

YOU are the one who should have let it go; you didn't. You keep using it over and over again and referring to it and you are doing so solely because you think you need to keep using things against people whenever you get cornered or nailed and THAT'S why you should just fucking shut the hell up about your ignorance of the whole deal.

What you are is a dishonest coward. You are recasting the events to make yourself feel better because it just about killed you to give the person in question an apology that you should have quickly and freely offered in the first place.

Your apology was insincere and your actions tonight prove that.

No "Pattern???"

Everything you do is an obvious pattern, you imbecile.

Is this for real? Are you guys really this unfuckingbelievably stupid? Or is this a couple of guys spoofing you?

If it's a spoof, it's eerily like the real Bob and Pale Rider.

It's a general question. If I have things to fear from TIA or Carnivore, I certainly have similar things to fear from private citizens, and it's perfectly appropriate to enquire how somebody could determine one's rl name if it was revealed once out of, say 1000 blog posts.

Whaaaaa?

You think there's a "carnivore" out there?

That's so 1993 of you.

What's out there would cause you to shit your pants.

Pale:

I didn't say things are smoothed over between myself and this person.

But to say I didn't make an honest effort is your own opinion. I tried. You can lead a horse to water and all ...

Now it turns out that I had a different interpretation of events. I still think my view is valid, as is this person's. It took me awhile to come around to fully see that person's view, but I struggled with it until I could, and then the apology came naturally.

To give an apology for some concrete event is not tantamount to getting into a person's good graces. That will never happen. And you know what -- life is too short to worry about it.

Bob

If it's a spoof, it's eerily like the real Bob and Pale Rider.

No this is me doing both BOB and PALE RIDER.

It's my new one act play...

"You have SHIT all over any apology you made and you have SHIT all over any sincerity you may have expressed for what you did and you have SHIT all over every attempt to reconcile or smooth things over. YOU are the one who should have let it go; you didn't. You keep using it over and over again and referring to it and you are doing so solely because you think you need to keep using things against people whenever you get cornered or nailed and THAT'S why you should just fucking shut the hell up about your ignorance of the whole deal."

Such hostility. Aren't you supposed to be hippydippy liberals?

Pale:

Pale, to say that I ever brought that incident up publicly at any time beyond the immediate aftermath is just flat-out bullshit -- and you can search archives and confirm it for yourself.

Bob

I still think my view is valid, as is this person's. It took me awhile to come around to fully see that person's view, but I struggled with it until I could, and then the apology came naturally.

No--you're an asshole. That's what assholes do--the struggle to come to things and then somehow manage to choke out an apology they didn't mean--classic asshole move. In the dictionary? By your name? [redacted]? It says asshole in big red letters.

To give an apology for some concrete event is not tantamount to getting into a person's good graces. That will never happen. And you know what -- life is too short to worry about it.

Life's too short? *shrug* stuff happens? Beats me? I dunno? Hey, what are you gonna do? Whatever?

You're an asshole and that's all there is to it.

I think I might be the "mutual friend" and while there are similarities there are differences and they are indeed two different people. Either of whom could reveal my secret identity and blow up the world at any moment.

It's not too bad. An eerie resemblance. Same stuck-up self-seriousness. Same overwrought yakkery. Same projection of someone who lives for this stupid message board.

I give it a 4.

Aren't you supposed to be hippydippy liberals?

Hey, gimme back my bong ya turd.

Do you have a secret identity? Is is like Pale Rider's fantasy Army career? Cool. Can you email it to me if I promise not to reveal it?

Pale, to say that I ever brought that incident up publicly at any time beyond the immediate aftermath is just flat-out bullshit -- and you can search archives and confirm it for yourself.

Oh, please.

How many times did you deny it tonight?

You're the biggest dumbass ever. And Charlie's on the thread--hey, Bob, thanks again.

Thanks for the fun.

But you're a dishonest, insincere asshole and you know it.

Globe:

:)

Pale:

No, that's just nonsense. You can argue it from this person's perspective, of course. But that's not what I believed at the time. But when I sat and used as much sympathetic introspection as I could, I saw the other POV and sincerely apologized.

That doesn't mean I was wrong to begin with. Perspectives aren't "wrong" -- they're perspectives.

If I didn't give a rap I certainly wouldn't have bothered to try to begin with. Apologizing certainly bought me nothing in return from this person save for a resolution of that specific issue.

Bob

Globe:
:)

You moron--that's Charlie.

And you wonder why I think you're a moron.

But when I sat and used as much sympathetic introspection as I could

[rolling eyes]

Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself with this overwrought, insincere and completely manufactured bullshit.

I'm done.

Pale:

Pale -- *you* brought up the incident, which we've both been circumlocuting the hell out of, and properly so.

Prior to this thread, I haven't brought it up publicly circumlocuted or otherwise since the immediate aftermath of when it happened, and if you'd like to say I did, you'd have to concretely prove it.

Bob

Pale:

You can say that all you want, but you have no access to my feelings -- or what my view of the situation was, prior to discussing the incident.

Believe it or not, there's more than one way to look at it.

Bob

FUK U PALE RIDER. I'm not Charlie, I'm Bob.

Pale -- *you* brought up the incident, which we've both been circumlocuting the hell out of, and properly so.

No, but--wow!

How you managed that backflip off the highboard is beyond me...

That's the healthy thing to do, by the way--

every single solitary mistake you've ever made--it's Pale Rider's fault.

doofus, no, I don't believe this is spoofing. they really are this dumb, Pale and Bob, together they have the IQ of a jellyfish.

Pale:

Ummm ... when we encounter this type of rhetoric in trolls, we call it a straw man argument.

You began with questioning my ethics. I made the obliquest reference to an accepted apology, and then you started to get more explicit about it.

It's all upthread.

Bob

"I want you to understand something--I took the initials "rdw" and the details he freely shared with us on the blog and linked him to the website where Wooten could register as a former crewman on the Navy Supply Ship that he once served on in the early 1970s. I don't know what he did with the info, but it was like, a basic google search and then analyzing the years which he served, the known supply vessels that plied the Atlantic and then the rosters posted on the association web page--vets groups do this all the time to make contact once again that was lost before the advent of the Internet."

But why did you do it, Pale Rider?

Pale:

"Global's" first comment looked innocently facetious enough -- but I guess you're right.

Score another one for my lack of omniscence :(

Bob

You began with questioning my ethics.

You began by attacking me--or is that not readily apparent?

Look, I have no problem with parodies of an absurd reactionary. But when it turns out that "Norman's" purpose was to troll liberals, to "toughen them up" -- I'm sorry, that's balls-out trollish grandiosity every bit as obnoxious as Charlie, IMHO.

Yeah--I'm cutting and pasting anti-semitic rants on the blog, huh Bob?

Just as bad as Charlie.

No, that's not an attack at all, is it?

Noooooooooooooooooooooo....

Moron...

But you're just NOT talented and smart enough to write the Norman stuff, Pale. That's just the thing.

"Whaaaaa?

You think there's a "carnivore" out there?

That's so 1993 of you.

What's out there would cause you to shit your pants."

_____

OK, that's definitely Pale Rider. He knows what's out there.

So it's not a parody. Just two losers having a complete mental meltdown. So sad.

"In its own way, it's as dysfunctional as Charlie."

That's totally true. I may be dysfunctional, but Pele Rider is just as bad.

"Charlie":

I didn't say "just as bad."

There are still valid distinctions to be drawn.

I'm just saying that, to quote the immortal Firesign Theater, we're all Bozos on this particular bus.

Bob

Pale:

Plus, I don't think it's Charile who's crossposting the anti-semitic spam. Christianist Republicans don't tend to be hardcore anti-semites. It would clash too hard with their views of the war on terrorism. That's a different class of troll entirely, and they pretty much show up at random.

Anyway, enough thread wreckage for one night.

Again, Pale -- I wish you no hard feelings. And I can do that despite the fact that I think that Norman trawling for liberals to get into back-and-forth arguments with is grandiose and Charleyesque. My whole point is that there really isn't such a thing as "good trolling."

Heh, and here I am having just made a total hypocrite of myself in this troll-fest of a thread. We have become two trolls, Pale. It's really kind of pointless; you certainly aren't going to destroy or humiliate me, and I harbor no illusions about doing the same to you.

Call this thread an object lesson, then. Mea maxima culpa.

And goodnight.

Bob

Quite the message board. I'd say ease up on Rob - he almost makes sense at times - but he obviously craves attention.
Now me, I remember a saying : "Those who worry about what other people are thinking about them, would be appalled how little they do".
And with that, I'm out of here.

We have become two trolls, Pale.

Project much?

In the Seventies a friend and I went to a local disco in our university town. It was a slow week night. What made the evening memorable was there was a young woman out on the dance floor by herself dancing away the whole time we were there. She looked to be drunk or stoned. I coined the expresssion that she was the "Dance Floor Hostess." We have used that expression for a laugh over the past few decades, especially when we see someone try and take over a public space for themselves.

I think one of the reasons Bob fosters so much enmity from those who have similar political views is that he assumes the title of "Political Animal Comment Host," the role of moderator for this open comment space. Bob once told me to shut the fuck up. I think I was calling John Hansen a rapist for his views about prohibiting abortion. It definitely affected me, for an afternoon or two, as I am not insenate [ :) ] to criticism by a peer, but I learned to accept Bob's self appointed moderating. Later I learned he had performed this type of work for Dean's presidential campaign blog and understood it was kind of second nature to him.

I have avoided responding to Pale Rider since his return because I do not want to have any more flame wars with him. I did miss Pale Rider though, because he had good insight into the military and shared it here. Despite my deliberate and obvious dislike for the military, I did read his comments because they were enlightening. But, PR does not temper his anger and invective for those he disagrees with, even if they may be allies against the larger foe of the neo-cons or Bushites. I was used to people complaining directly about my comments. I know many of them are not mainstream and do reflect the hostility I have for the course our nation has been on. PA has allowed me to develop that voice, and I am grateful, but Pale Rider wrote negative things about me even when I was not part of the thread. I found that disconcerting. When Pale Rider called me a Freeper as a response, that hurt, but saying I may have to be turned into the authorities for my anti-establishment comments, when I was not even part of the thread, because of his personal animus towards me was too much and I had a melt down.

Melt downs can be cathartic, however. So I am glad Pale Rider is back, but would prefer he save his antipathy for those who really disagree with him on politics, not on style.

One more thing. I found Bob and cmdicely discussing me when I was not around, too. It was only one or two comments. I found it by accident when I was googling my post it name and journalizing my comments. I think they were discussing whether or not I was a troll. To Bob's credit, he said he thought I was sincere. Appallingly, their discussion took place on my birthday. Since then I have become used to my views being seen by others as so far from everyday platitudes that I must be making parody and therefore a freeping troll. Fascinating.

PA has allowed me to develop that voice, and I am grateful, but Pale Rider wrote negative things about me even when I was not part of the thread. I found that disconcerting.

Boo hoo! I'll say right to your face, too--you Fucking Freeper!

Fuck you, too, Simon! I don't need to "prove" anything to the likes of you and Hostile. If you don't think I can watch the game, post here, and find out Bob's "real" name all at the same time, then FUCK YOU ALL!

- Come to think of it, my assuming multiple handles, debating myself under other names, and spending hours day after day obsessing about Pale Rider's career smacks of major loserdom. Oh well. At least I've never pretended to be in the military.

Another spoofer, obviously. Good job! Parodic enough to be funny, yet close enough to the "real" guy to be almost believable.

You know Charlie, there are medicines you can use to control this kind of behavior.

And for the record, Hostile, that was Charlie telling you to fuck off.

Yesterday was a very bad day for him, what with the humiliation of his beloved administration.

Is this you, Norman? Putting together this entire thread? You are earning more and more respect by the hour...

And now you have brought "trex" out posting, too. Niiiiiice. But why not "Bob" too? For some more of yesterday's argument. Wouldn't that make it even funnier?

I'll say right to your face, too--you Fucking Freeper!

Appreciated, but it still hurts.

I've never posted as "Bob", you asshole, but here's his picture for anyone who's interested.

Hostile, it must be so sad to be you.

Spoof posts abound, dear folks, so ignore as needed...

That's right, ignore me all you can. Better still since my link to Bob's picture on-line didn't work.

I have avoided responding to Pale Rider since his return because I do not want to have any more flame wars with him. I did miss Pale Rider though, because he had good insight into the military and shared it here. Despite my deliberate and obvious dislike for the military, I did read his comments because they were enlightening. But, PR does not temper his anger and invective for those he disagrees with, even if they may be allies against the larger foe of the neo-cons or Bushites. I was used to people complaining directly about my comments. I know many of them are not mainstream and do reflect the hostility I have for the course our nation has been on. PA has allowed me to develop that voice, and I am grateful, but Pale Rider wrote negative things about me even when I was not part of the thread. I found that disconcerting. When Pale Rider called me a Freeper as a response, that hurt, but saying I may have to be turned into the authorities for my anti-establishment comments, when I was not even part of the thread, because of his personal animus towards me was too much and I had a melt down.

That's a fair criticism of me, and my methods and I apologize for any grief that might have caused you.

If you are genuine in what you do, Hostile, who am I to judge? How could I possibly know? If I made a wrong guess, okay. I made a wrong guess and I apologize for that. Of course I'm over the top and use way too much "violence" in my language--it is too vivid and too intemperate at times.

The voice I write in is confrontational, brutal at times, and definitely offensive to certain sensibilities and certain points of view. That's intentional. I refuse to believe that this blog is not watched and monitored by a fair number of people who have designs and purposes that are, shall we say, less than pure and that mean to inflict a great deal of distraction and misdirection where good conversations flow.

The best analogy I can give you is that I take the role of a hockey goon and try to clear lanes and occupy these troll-like characters so that others are free to make points and discuss things. The flame war of two nights ago did ruin a thread--I'm sorry for that. But conversation continued unabated on several others and that's a good thing.

Do I care whether some retarded wannabe with no talent is working overtime to ruin my name and drive me off this blog? No, of course not.

Where I have aimed a blast, and where it has injured or struck the innocent, of course I'm sorry and of course I try to moderate what I do.

Unfortunately, even in the old NHL, the hockey goon would fail to get back across the blue line or get to the bench and switch out on a scoring opportunity or skate on the wrong line or miss a check--I am guilty of all those things and more.

You know, I really wanted to bang my last English TA. I can't believe she gave my paper on deconstructionism a C+. What was up with that? I even mentioned that Michel Foucault's AIDS valorizes an aporia of cthonic disarray.

I thought the bitch would be flattered.

Apology accepted, Pale Rider.

Heh. "Norman" has now gone from spoofing Pale Rider and Bob to spoofing me (2:40).

You should make a whole dialogue out of it, Norman, like you did with "Bob" and "Pale Rider" last night.

Pale:

Then why did you waste all that energy attacking me, because I had the nerve to criticize Norman?

Pale, you take these threads entirely too personally, and you do practice a great deal of unwarranted projection. For as long as I've been posting, there have been guys who've tried to do the dinosaur bone bit to construct demonic visions of who they're debating "in real life" as a way to channel massive amounts of aggression and hostility.

But here's the thing: You can't simultaneously troll a thread and pretend you're doing the Lord's work.

What you're doing is looking for cheap outlets for your own animus.

If you really wore the white hat more consistently, you'd choose your targets for reasons other than minor wounds to your ego.

Bob

What you're doing is looking for cheap outlets for your own animus.

Slowly, now...

...project much?

Pale:

It's not projection, Pale.

Be honest with yourself. You went off on me like a berserker because I called trolling with Norman Charlie-like in its grandiosity.

It's an opinion. I'm entitled.

You used it to launch a full-bore personal attack. It's like that Monty Python routine where the Special Forces were skinning mosquitoes with machetes.

Bob

You went off on me like a berserker because I called trolling with Norman Charlie-like in its grandiosity.

No, I went after you because you're an asshole.

See the difference?

And, yes, it would be projection for you to turn right around and say:

Pale, the problem is, I see your approach to this as proof that the asshole-like behavior stems from your misinterpretation of the situation and from your lack of *humor*.

I'll let others decide if I'm as bad as Charlie. That's not up to me to decide. If you want to make it your own personal goal to show everyone here that I am as bad as Charlie, that's your business.

Pale:

Calling me an asshole is a personal attack, based on drastically inflated assumptions about who you think I am.

It's doing the dinosaur bone bit with little chunks of rhetoric that you blow out of all reasonable proportion.

And that is the sine qua non of projection.

Bob

Pale:

You make a good point. But you have to admit I make good points, too. For example, that your meltdown last night was troll-like in its viciousness. Just admit it. And then we can call a truce. Otherwise, this will go on for days.

Bob

Pale:

See, that's my point. I never said you, Pale Rider, were "as bad as Charlie." I'd never say such a thing.

I said that trolling with Norman (as opposed to just using him to parody) is as bad as Charlie, IMHO.

One specific behavior. Not Pale Rider himself.

As I say, you're investing way too much ego in this.

Bob

Check the timestamps :)

Bob

Fine, asshole. Trolling with "Norman" is just as bad as Charlie. You win--happy now?

Pale:

It's an opinion. You're more than entitled to disagree with it.

Bob

I just said you won, didn't I? Time to let it go, Bob. Continuing to pick the scab just makes you look more foolish. You'll feel better if you stop taking all of this--and yourself--so seriously.

Check the timestamps :)

********

Why, because you think and type so much slower than everybody else?

"Time to let it go, Bob."

Amen.

"Asshole"

Amen to that, too.

Simon:

Don't you have some absquatulating to do? :)

Bob

PS: I learned that one from Thomas Pynchon's new novel. Mixed reviews, but I think it's a goddamn great book and enjoyed all of it.

Bob

Bob, 315pm and 308pm are CHARLIE busting your balls again.

I mean, you throw red meat out on a thread and then you claim ignorance--come on.

You can have all the moral victories that you want to imagine for yourself--the bottom line is, you're so weak and confused that it's not even worth the trouble to try to explain to you that, once again, when you try to claim I'm projecting something towards you, it's really just the mentally ill and deranged aspect of your shattered psyche trying to "project" guilt away from yourself onto everyone else.

projection In psychoanalytic theory, a mechanism of defense in which various forbidden thoughts and impulses are attributed to another person rather than the self, thus warding off some anxiety (e.g., "I hate you" becomes "You hate me").

What's funny is that a public meltdown like this plays into the hands of Charlie perfectly--it gives him the raw, rancid red meat he needs to feed upon when he wants to have things to talk about. It is the perfect example of what not to do when there is a concerted troll effort to destroy commentary on the blog.

--and the funny part is, by interceding in it, Charlie fucks up the very thing that benefits him the most by making it impossible to continue the discussion.

Hey!!! Is that the "real" Pale Rider at 3:20? Because it's an awfully lot smarter and more incisive than the drivel he usually writes. I vote for an imposter.

Pale:

Calling me "mentally ill" because I have these debates with you is like Bill Frist making a video diagnosis of Terry Schiavo.

I mean -- come on. That's not a grotesque example of fingerpointing? And that maybe you might be pointing the finger because you'd like to direct the convo away from the points I made about simply stating an opinion about Norman, and how much you overreacted to it?

If that's not projection, dude -- then nothing is.

Bob

If that's not projection, dude -- then nothing is.

????

I rest my case. There is no inner monologue and there is no "introspection" in your makeup, is there?

So far, on this thread, I have agreed to stop using your name, have answered your questions, have apologized to Hostile and to anyone I have offended, I have apologized for the flame wars and I have basically done what any reasonably honest adult does--I have taken responsibility for my actions and made an honest effort to account for them, accept them, accept their consequences, and explain why I do what I do.

And that's me engaging in "projection?"

Simon:

I vote imposter too. It now seems Pale Rider has taken to *spoofing* himself so that he can claim it was "Charlie" all along. No one is interested in continuing the discussion about spam on a dead thread. I see through him now, finally, in the end.

Bob

Pale at 3:23:

Fortunately this thread is dead, but otherwise you're absolutely correct about that.

The only thing I'd say is that I suspect Simon is not Charlie. It's only an inference -- by all means take it for what it's worth.

Bob

You dumbass--

As if it matters whether he is or is not Charlie.

But thanks for not acknowledging the red meat you threw out there for him.

I applaud the spoofers of rmck, pale, et al who are making the case for registration with this manufactured flame war.

Yeoman's work, guys.

Pale at 3:29:

No, those are all very good things and you should be commended for them. And for the record, I think you're being entirely sincere.

For my part, I apologize for the thread wreckage as well.

But calling me "mentally ill" is entirely over-the-top and unsupportable even if it happened to be true.

You'll notice I've said damned few things about who I think you "really are" irl, Pale. I don't know who you are, and frankly it's your business.

When you start relentlessly speculating about what you imagine a person's flaws to be irl instead of on their arguments, then you open the doors to accusations like projection.

Bob

Don P has really lost it.

I agree with blank. Simon's post was pretty fucken funny.

Bob

You missed Pale Rider denouncing Simon at 1:57 PM?

Yea, that was just projection. Obviously!

Oh, god. Which one is Don P? Is he the one *spoofing* me now too?

Bob

uh, oh.

No sooner do I compliment the spoofer team, then they start to crosstalk all over each other, ruining the illusion.

No one's mention Donna Pissypants for a while...wonder why, all of a sudden, the spoof troll would bring up that name?

Still working for that shitty company in Texas, Donna?

Hey, Donna.

How are you?

I thought you would make a return. Boy, you sure do hate everybody who can think more clearly than you can, don't you?

Can I get a "Pale Rider Motherfucker" from you for old time's sake, little Donna Pissypants?

Comments
Another reason to get out of there, fast. One more reason...according to the Borgen Project, $300 billion has been spent on the War in Iraq when only $40 to 60 billion is needed to eradicate poverty and achieve the UN Millennium Development Goals.

Posted by: Amy1022 on December 7, 2006 at 2:10 PM | PERMALINK
Another reason to get out of there, fast. One more reason...according to the Borgen Project, $300 billion has been spent on the War in Iraq when only $40 to 60 billion is needed to eradicate poverty and achieve the UN Millennium Development Goals.

Posted by: Amy1022 on December 7, 2006 at 2:11 PM | PERMALINK
Bush only wants to kick this ball 2 years down the road - just long enough that when it unravels, it's on the next guy's watch. All he wants is the oportunity to be able to spin his legacy through the right wing channels, libraries setup in his name etc.

Posted by: Name on December 7, 2006 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK
The US and Iraq are two democracies that are unable to make their governments do what the people want. That cannot lead to a positive outcome.

Posted by: Hostile on December 7, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK
I was under the impression that the real problem in Iraq was the civil war underway rather than the anti-American insurgency.

Of course, I don't really expect the New New Plan will address that anymore than addresses how long American forces will be in the country.

Posted by: Linus on December 7, 2006 at 2:25 PM | PERMALINK
Arkin also makes the salutary point that this plan "merely kicks the day of reckoning further down the road."

Umm, I thought that was the Bush plan? Hang on grimly for another two years, getting hundreds of thousands killed while doing so, until he can hand the hot potato over to his successor?

Posted by: Stefan on December 7, 2006 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK
Bush only wants to kick this ball 2 years down the road

This is the only part of any Bush "plan" that we can be sure of, other than the probability of the results of any Bush "plan" making things worse than they are now.

Posted by: Nemo on December 7, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK
Always remember: things can get even worse than they are now. They have for each of the previous three years, after all.

Always good to keep that in mind. Also worth remembering: Improvement, if any, will be slow and arduous, but things could get worse very fast. The power to decide lies mostly with the Iraqis. What can we deduce from their responses up to now?

Posted by: extracholesterol on December 7, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK
The US and Iraq are two democracies that are unable to make their governments do what the people want.
That is impossible; if the people are unable to make their governments do what the people want, the states are, ipso facto, not democracies.

Posted by: cmdicely on December 7, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK
Um, I think that's Hostile's point, Dicely. Probably yours as well.

Posted by: grape_crush on December 7, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK
"Name," above (as well as some others), has it right. The overarching plan is to keep juggling this thing, marking time as well as they can, until the next poor schlub has to take it in January of '09.

Then it won't matter. If the guy's a Democrat, so much the better - so that, thirty years from now, the wingnuts can claim that we "could have" won in Iraq if only the defeatist Dems hadn't cut and run! And if he's a Republican - well, at least his name isn't Bush.

Posted by: Alek Hidell on December 7, 2006 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK
I thought that was the Bush plan?
Bush? Plan? I doubt it.

Posted by: cmdicely on December 7, 2006 at 2:48 PM | PERMALINK
It's past time to take off the gloves and brand this war for what it is -- the Republicans war in Iraq. Most Democrats are for getting out; most Republicans are for staying. If we get out any time soon, credit the Democrats. If we don't, credit the Republicans (and that includes the Republicans poster boy, the elderly John McCain).

Posted by: Robert Dare on December 7, 2006 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK
Jeb Bush in 08.

Posted by: gregor on December 7, 2006 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK
i don't know how to react. the pinkos don't like the ISG, so i like it. OTOH, bush doesn't like it, so neither do i. no easy talking points on this one

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
Wait just a second, Kevin. A week ago, down on the "TAKING SIDES" thread, you said that the "80 percent" solution was the worst possible scenario--I think your exact words were "It's hard to imagine a more disastrous end to a disastrous war." Now we are supposed to "Always remember: things can get even worse..."?

Posted by: Pale Rider on December 7, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
And it will get worse, Kevin. There will be a large-scale assault on the Green Zone soon and when the American public sees heaps of dead bodies, particularly American ones, the outcry will be shrill. If Bush survives his second term and is not impeached, he will have an approval rating in the single digits or roughly the percentage of Americans who are regular Rush Limbaugh listeners.

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on December 7, 2006 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK
OTOH, no members of the ISG were against the war, so i guess they can be trusted. OTOH, they say to talk to a member of the axis of evil, which is distinctly not what john wayne would have done, had he ever served his country, so i say no. jim baker is just an hysterical bush hater. ow my head

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK
ahh, gregor has shown me a way out. Yay Jeb!

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 3:01 PM | PERMALINK
Kevin said Every extra day that we spend in Iraq merely makes our eventual disengagement harder and bloodier.

Difficult to assess this assertion without clarification. More difficult and bloodier for whom? In what way? Do I sense a note of hysteria here? Is the insurgency going to attack the green zone with nukes? Is Kevin afraid he will be left off the front wagon in the cut and run bandwagon?

Posted by: Michael7843853 G-O in 08! on December 7, 2006 at 3:08 PM | PERMALINK
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." (While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land." (In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')

___________________

If we do not confront this guy and take his evil regime out now by whatever means necessary, history will repeat itself.
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." (While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land." (In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')

___________________

If we do not confront this guy and take his evil regime out now by whatever means necessary, history will repeat itself.
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if w

Athiesm is a belief system encompassing the belief that no higher conciousness exists above man's and there is no concious direction to the development of life in the universe. Or something like that.

No, atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God.

At present, the scientific process has limited ability to either prove or disprove the existence of sentient conciouness as a discrete element separate from corporeal substance. My experience informs me that it is.

Assuming that "that it is" is supposed to mean something like "that it does exist," what is the nature of this alleged experience?

But Atheism is just another unprovable belief system, or 'faith' as you can never 'prove' a negative.

Some atheists may hold their belief about God as an article of faith, but for the vast majority it is more likely a matter of evidence and reason.

Pale:

Actually, Pale, I have plenty of inner monologue. I know what's going on here in this thread, Problem is, when I attempt to give evidence of it, you call me insincere anyway. *shrug*

I can't prove to you what my motives are, Pale. Just like you can't prove yours to me. But I chose to take your apologia seriously. I appreciate that you aren't using my name anymore; thank you for honoring that request.

I recognize what's going on in this particular thread. Honestly, I think we should both just give it up at this point. But one of the things I'm attempting to do is to maybe battle the both of us into such a dazed semi-coma that it becomes one of those weird bonding experiences in Fight Clob. Seriously -- I don't want bad blood between us in other threads, so I'd like to try to work out these kinks in our rapport that keep coming up.

Maybe that's entirely vain. Maybe you'll always think I'm a total asshole. But the effort is, nonetheless, entirely sincere, and it's why I'm still on this thread when there are better conversations going on elsewhere.

Bob

Oh jesus, here come the *real* wrecking balls ...

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here."

Pale, no hard feelings, ok?

Catch you on other threads. Pages upon pages of anti-semitic crossposts are unendurable.

Bob

Tee hee hee. Do please cite studies or statements by health care policy experts who share your (clearly utterly ignorant) opinion that single payer universal health care would be "sure" to lead to a "massive reduction" in health care spending by the U.S. You really don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Another reason to get out of there, fast. One more reason...according to the Borgen Project, $300 billion has been spent on the War in Iraq when only $40 to 60 billion is needed to eradicate poverty and achieve the UN Millennium Development Goals.

Posted by: Amy1022 on December 7, 2006 at 2:11 PM | PERMALINK
Bush only wants to kick this ball 2 years down the road - just long enough that when it unravels, it's on the next guy's watch. All he wants is the oportunity to be able to spin his legacy through the right wing channels, libraries setup in his name etc.

Posted by: Name on December 7, 2006 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK
The US and Iraq are two democracies that are unable to make their governments do what the people want. That cannot lead to a positive outcome.

Posted by: Hostile on December 7, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK
I was under the impression that the real problem in Iraq was the civil war underway rather than the anti-American insurgency.

Of course, I don't really expect the New New Plan will address that anymore than addresses how long American forces will be in the country.

Posted by: Linus on December 7, 2006 at 2:25 PM | PERMALINK
Arkin also makes the salutary point that this plan "merely kicks the day of reckoning further down the road."

Umm, I thought that was the Bush plan? Hang on grimly for another two years, getting hundreds of thousands killed while doing so, until he can hand the hot potato over to his successor?

Posted by: Stefan on December 7, 2006 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK
Bush only wants to kick this ball 2 years down the road

This is the only part of any Bush "plan" that we can be sure of, other than the probability of the results of any Bush "plan" making things worse than they are now.

Posted by: Nemo on December 7, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK
Always remember: things can get even worse than they are now. They have for each of the previous three years, after all.

Always good to keep that in mind. Also worth remembering: Improvement, if any, will be slow and arduous, but things could get worse very fast. The power to decide lies mostly with the Iraqis. What can we deduce from their responses up to now?

Posted by: extracholesterol on December 7, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK
The US and Iraq are two democracies that are unable to make their governments do what the people want.
That is impossible; if the people are unable to make their governments do what the people want, the states are, ipso facto, not democracies.

Posted by: cmdicely on December 7, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK
Um, I think that's Hostile's point, Dicely. Probably yours as well.

Posted by: grape_crush on December 7, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK
"Name," above (as well as some others), has it right. The overarching plan is to keep juggling this thing, marking time as well as they can, until the next poor schlub has to take it in January of '09.

Then it won't matter. If the guy's a Democrat, so much the better - so that, thirty years from now, the wingnuts can claim that we "could have" won in Iraq if only the defeatist Dems hadn't cut and run! And if he's a Republican - well, at least his name isn't Bush.

Posted by: Alek Hidell on December 7, 2006 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK
I thought that was the Bush plan?
Bush? Plan? I doubt it.

Posted by: cmdicely on December 7, 2006 at 2:48 PM | PERMALINK
It's past time to take off the gloves and brand this war for what it is -- the Republicans war in Iraq. Most Democrats are for getting out; most Republicans are for staying. If we get out any time soon, credit the Democrats. If we don't, credit the Republicans (and that includes the Republicans poster boy, the elderly John McCain).

Posted by: Robert Dare on December 7, 2006 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK
Jeb Bush in 08.

Posted by: gregor on December 7, 2006 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK
i don't know how to react. the pinkos don't like the ISG, so i like it. OTOH, bush doesn't like it, so neither do i. no easy talking points on this one

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
Wait just a second, Kevin. A week ago, down on the "TAKING SIDES" thread, you said that the "80 percent" solution was the worst possible scenario--I think your exact words were "It's hard to imagine a more disastrous end to a disastrous war." Now we are supposed to "Always remember: things can get even worse..."?

Posted by: Pale Rider on December 7, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
And it will get worse, Kevin. There will be a large-scale assault on the Green Zone soon and when the American public sees heaps of dead bodies, particularly American ones, the outcry will be shrill. If Bush survives his second term and is not impeached, he will have an approval rating in the single digits or roughly the percentage of Americans who are regular Rush Limbaugh listeners.

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on December 7, 2006 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK
OTOH, no members of the ISG were against the war, so i guess they can be trusted. OTOH, they say to talk to a member of the axis of evil, which is distinctly not what john wayne would have done, had he ever served his country, so i say no. jim baker is just an hysterical bush hater. ow my head

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK
ahh, gregor has shown me a way out. Yay Jeb!

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 3:01 PM | PERMALINK
Kevin said Every extra day that we spend in Iraq merely makes our eventual disengagement harder and bloodier.

Difficult to assess this assertion without clarification. More difficult and bloodier for whom? In what way? Do I sense a note of hysteria here? Is the insurgency going to attack the green zone with nukes? Is Kevin afraid he will be left off the front wagon in the cut and run bandwagon?

Posted by: Michael7843853 G-O in 08! on December 7, 2006 at 3:08 PM | PERMALINK
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." (While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land." (In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')

___________________

If we do not confront this guy and take his evil regime out now by whatever means necessary, history will repeat itself.
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." (While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land." (In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')

___________________

If we do not confront this guy and take his evil regime out now by whatever means necessary, history will repeat itself.
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if w

Bob

Pale, no hard feelings, ok?
Catch you on other threads. Pages upon pages of anti-semitic crossposts are unendurable.

No, there are no feelings whatsoever--I don't want anything to do with you and I wish you would understand that.

Another reason to get out of there, fast. One more reason...according to the Borgen Project, $300 billion has been spent on the War in Iraq when only $40 to 60 billion is needed to eradicate poverty and achieve the UN Millennium Development Goals.

Posted by: Amy1022 on December 7, 2006 at 2:11 PM | PERMALINK
Bush only wants to kick this ball 2 years down the road - just long enough that when it unravels, it's on the next guy's watch. All he wants is the oportunity to be able to spin his legacy through the right wing channels, libraries setup in his name etc.

Posted by: Name on December 7, 2006 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK
The US and Iraq are two democracies that are unable to make their governments do what the people want. That cannot lead to a positive outcome.

Posted by: Hostile on December 7, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK
I was under the impression that the real problem in Iraq was the civil war underway rather than the anti-American insurgency.

Of course, I don't really expect the New New Plan will address that anymore than addresses how long American forces will be in the country.

Posted by: Linus on December 7, 2006 at 2:25 PM | PERMALINK
Arkin also makes the salutary point that this plan "merely kicks the day of reckoning further down the road."

Umm, I thought that was the Bush plan? Hang on grimly for another two years, getting hundreds of thousands killed while doing so, until he can hand the hot potato over to his successor?

Posted by: Stefan on December 7, 2006 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK
Bush only wants to kick this ball 2 years down the road

This is the only part of any Bush "plan" that we can be sure of, other than the probability of the results of any Bush "plan" making things worse than they are now.

Posted by: Nemo on December 7, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK
Always remember: things can get even worse than they are now. They have for each of the previous three years, after all.

Always good to keep that in mind. Also worth remembering: Improvement, if any, will be slow and arduous, but things could get worse very fast. The power to decide lies mostly with the Iraqis. What can we deduce from their responses up to now?

Posted by: extracholesterol on December 7, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK
The US and Iraq are two democracies that are unable to make their governments do what the people want.
That is impossible; if the people are unable to make their governments do what the people want, the states are, ipso facto, not democracies.

Posted by: cmdicely on December 7, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK
Um, I think that's Hostile's point, Dicely. Probably yours as well.

Posted by: grape_crush on December 7, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK
"Name," above (as well as some others), has it right. The overarching plan is to keep juggling this thing, marking time as well as they can, until the next poor schlub has to take it in January of '09.

Then it won't matter. If the guy's a Democrat, so much the better - so that, thirty years from now, the wingnuts can claim that we "could have" won in Iraq if only the defeatist Dems hadn't cut and run! And if he's a Republican - well, at least his name isn't Bush.

Posted by: Alek Hidell on December 7, 2006 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK
I thought that was the Bush plan?
Bush? Plan? I doubt it.

Posted by: cmdicely on December 7, 2006 at 2:48 PM | PERMALINK
It's past time to take off the gloves and brand this war for what it is -- the Republicans war in Iraq. Most Democrats are for getting out; most Republicans are for staying. If we get out any time soon, credit the Democrats. If we don't, credit the Republicans (and that includes the Republicans poster boy, the elderly John McCain).

Posted by: Robert Dare on December 7, 2006 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK
Jeb Bush in 08.

Posted by: gregor on December 7, 2006 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK
i don't know how to react. the pinkos don't like the ISG, so i like it. OTOH, bush doesn't like it, so neither do i. no easy talking points on this one

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
Wait just a second, Kevin. A week ago, down on the "TAKING SIDES" thread, you said that the "80 percent" solution was the worst possible scenario--I think your exact words were "It's hard to imagine a more disastrous end to a disastrous war." Now we are supposed to "Always remember: things can get even worse..."?

Posted by: Pale Rider on December 7, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
And it will get worse, Kevin. There will be a large-scale assault on the Green Zone soon and when the American public sees heaps of dead bodies, particularly American ones, the outcry will be shrill. If Bush survives his second term and is not impeached, he will have an approval rating in the single digits or roughly the percentage of Americans who are regular Rush Limbaugh listeners.

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on December 7, 2006 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK
OTOH, no members of the ISG were against the war, so i guess they can be trusted. OTOH, they say to talk to a member of the axis of evil, which is distinctly not what john wayne would have done, had he ever served his country, so i say no. jim baker is just an hysterical bush hater. ow my head

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK
ahh, gregor has shown me a way out. Yay Jeb!

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 3:01 PM | PERMALINK
Kevin said Every extra day that we spend in Iraq merely makes our eventual disengagement harder and bloodier.

Difficult to assess this assertion without clarification. More difficult and bloodier for whom? In what way? Do I sense a note of hysteria here? Is the insurgency going to attack the green zone with nukes? Is Kevin afraid he will be left off the front wagon in the cut and run bandwagon?

Posted by: Michael7843853 G-O in 08! on December 7, 2006 at 3:08 PM | PERMALINK
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." (While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land." (In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')

___________________

If we do not confront this guy and take his evil regime out now by whatever means necessary, history will repeat itself.
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." (While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land." (In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')

___________________

If we do not confront this guy and take his evil regime out now by whatever means necessary, history will repeat itself.
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if w

Bob

Pale:

That's completely disingenuous and you know it.

If it were truly the case, you certainly wouldn't have spent an entire night going back and forth with me on this shit. To what end? What exactly did you think you were trying to prove?

And this is what I mean ... Show a little inner monologue -- get smacked in the face for my trouble.

Whatever, Pale. I was talking about a public rapport, for the sake of this blog, so we don't keep having these ridiculous dysfunctional family dramas which we both agree wrecks threads.

I wasn't talking about anything resembling a personal relationship.

The pseudo-personal relationship crap is precisely the problem here.

Bob

Iraq is going through a tough time. And it's a difficult moment for America and Great Britain. And the task before us is daunting. Yet our nations have stood before in difficult moments. Sixty-five years ago this day, America was jolted out of our isolationism and plunged into a global war that Britain had been fighting for two years. In that war, our nation stood firm. And there were difficult moments during that war, yet the leaders of our two nations never lost faith in the capacity to prevail.

We will stand firm again in this first war of the 21st century. We will defeat the extremists and the radicals. We will help a young democracy prevail in Iraq. And in so doing, we will secure freedom and peace for millions, including our own citizens.

Another reason to get out of there, fast. One more reason...according to the Borgen Project, $300 billion has been spent on the War in Iraq when only $40 to 60 billion is needed to eradicate poverty and achieve the UN Millennium Development Goals.

Posted by: Amy1022 on December 7, 2006 at 2:11 PM | PERMALINK
Bush only wants to kick this ball 2 years down the road - just long enough that when it unravels, it's on the next guy's watch. All he wants is the oportunity to be able to spin his legacy through the right wing channels, libraries setup in his name etc.

Posted by: Name on December 7, 2006 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK
The US and Iraq are two democracies that are unable to make their governments do what the people want. That cannot lead to a positive outcome.

Posted by: Hostile on December 7, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK
I was under the impression that the real problem in Iraq was the civil war underway rather than the anti-American insurgency.

Of course, I don't really expect the New New Plan will address that anymore than addresses how long American forces will be in the country.

Posted by: Linus on December 7, 2006 at 2:25 PM | PERMALINK
Arkin also makes the salutary point that this plan "merely kicks the day of reckoning further down the road."

Umm, I thought that was the Bush plan? Hang on grimly for another two years, getting hundreds of thousands killed while doing so, until he can hand the hot potato over to his successor?

Posted by: Stefan on December 7, 2006 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK
Bush only wants to kick this ball 2 years down the road

This is the only part of any Bush "plan" that we can be sure of, other than the probability of the results of any Bush "plan" making things worse than they are now.

Posted by: Nemo on December 7, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK
Always remember: things can get even worse than they are now. They have for each of the previous three years, after all.

Always good to keep that in mind. Also worth remembering: Improvement, if any, will be slow and arduous, but things could get worse very fast. The power to decide lies mostly with the Iraqis. What can we deduce from their responses up to now?

Posted by: extracholesterol on December 7, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK
The US and Iraq are two democracies that are unable to make their governments do what the people want.
That is impossible; if the people are unable to make their governments do what the people want, the states are, ipso facto, not democracies.

Posted by: cmdicely on December 7, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK
Um, I think that's Hostile's point, Dicely. Probably yours as well.

Posted by: grape_crush on December 7, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK
"Name," above (as well as some others), has it right. The overarching plan is to keep juggling this thing, marking time as well as they can, until the next poor schlub has to take it in January of '09.

Then it won't matter. If the guy's a Democrat, so much the better - so that, thirty years from now, the wingnuts can claim that we "could have" won in Iraq if only the defeatist Dems hadn't cut and run! And if he's a Republican - well, at least his name isn't Bush.

Posted by: Alek Hidell on December 7, 2006 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK
I thought that was the Bush plan?
Bush? Plan? I doubt it.

Posted by: cmdicely on December 7, 2006 at 2:48 PM | PERMALINK
It's past time to take off the gloves and brand this war for what it is -- the Republicans war in Iraq. Most Democrats are for getting out; most Republicans are for staying. If we get out any time soon, credit the Democrats. If we don't, credit the Republicans (and that includes the Republicans poster boy, the elderly John McCain).

Posted by: Robert Dare on December 7, 2006 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK
Jeb Bush in 08.

Posted by: gregor on December 7, 2006 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK
i don't know how to react. the pinkos don't like the ISG, so i like it. OTOH, bush doesn't like it, so neither do i. no easy talking points on this one

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
Wait just a second, Kevin. A week ago, down on the "TAKING SIDES" thread, you said that the "80 percent" solution was the worst possible scenario--I think your exact words were "It's hard to imagine a more disastrous end to a disastrous war." Now we are supposed to "Always remember: things can get even worse..."?

Posted by: Pale Rider on December 7, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
And it will get worse, Kevin. There will be a large-scale assault on the Green Zone soon and when the American public sees heaps of dead bodies, particularly American ones, the outcry will be shrill. If Bush survives his second term and is not impeached, he will have an approval rating in the single digits or roughly the percentage of Americans who are regular Rush Limbaugh listeners.

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on December 7, 2006 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK
OTOH, no members of the ISG were against the war, so i guess they can be trusted. OTOH, they say to talk to a member of the axis of evil, which is distinctly not what john wayne would have done, had he ever served his country, so i say no. jim baker is just an hysterical bush hater. ow my head

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK
ahh, gregor has shown me a way out. Yay Jeb!

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 3:01 PM | PERMALINK
Kevin said Every extra day that we spend in Iraq merely makes our eventual disengagement harder and bloodier.

Difficult to assess this assertion without clarification. More difficult and bloodier for whom? In what way? Do I sense a note of hysteria here? Is the insurgency going to attack the green zone with nukes? Is Kevin afraid he will be left off the front wagon in the cut and run bandwagon?

Posted by: Michael7843853 G-O in 08! on December 7, 2006 at 3:08 PM | PERMALINK
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." (While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land." (In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')

___________________

If we do not confront this guy and take his evil regime out now by whatever means necessary, history will repeat itself.
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." (While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land." (In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')

___________________

If we do not confront this guy and take his evil regime out now by whatever means necessary, history will repeat itself.
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if w

Bob

Note to spoofers:

1) I don't care.

2) Nobody would ever believe I'd post that crap.

Pretty damn childish and destructive behavior, don't you think?

Bob

I can't stop talking. Look, I'll even respond to this.

Nobody would ever believe I'd post that crap. At least, I don't think so. Just in case though, it's not me, OK?

Gee, who could have just done that. Who could've dumped three hundred pages of spam into a thread in a way guaranteed to shut down the discussion?

Charlie? Simon? Don P?

Nope. I don't think so. I think who did it and why is pretty apparent.

Sad. And it proves the point I made which led to the initial argument.

You can't wreck a blog in order to save it.

Bob

Charlie? Simon? Don P? Nope. I don't think so. I think who did it and why is pretty apparent.

Are you accusing me of posting those under your name? It's CHARLIE, you asshole!

Pale:

Did I say who I thought it was?

Why are you being so defensive?

Bob

Bob - "I vote imposter too. It now seems Pale Rider has taken to *spoofing* himself so that he can claim it was "Charlie" all along. No one is interested in continuing the discussion about spam on a dead thread. I see through him now, finally, in the end."

That is so true, Bob. I am glad you see straight thru that silly slut Pale. He's one of the main reasons this Political Animal thingee has become such an intellectual vacuum. Thanks for standing up for our common values.

*rolling eyes, chuckling*

Counter-blogging is just *so much* darn fun, isn't it.

Bob

Let's see ... a little birdie suggested that Charlie rarely rises above inane rhetorical questions.

And point and click -- here he is now with them, as if, ummm, on cue.

Whosoever could have predicted such a thing.

You know, like I initially said to shortstop:

This is the ultimate postmodern medium.

Bob

Spock:

Yeah, pretty sure.

Bob

Spock:

And don't you forget it :)

Bob

Spock:

NB: "Spock" on the active threads strenuously claims he doesn't know who Charlie is.

Who's Charlie, Spock?

Bob

Who's Pale now, Bob?

Who's your daddy?

Who's Bob?

For everybody's information, I dumped all that spam in this thread.

I just wanted to see what it felt like.

The last time I posted was at 4:31 PM -- not sure who you are talking to, Bob, but it wasn't me.

"Democracy" is right there on pg. 38.

Another reason to get out of there, fast. One more reason...according to the Borgen Project, $300 billion has been spent on the War in Iraq when only $40 to 60 billion is needed to eradicate poverty and achieve the UN Millennium Development Goals.

Posted by: Amy1022 on December 7, 2006 at 2:11 PM | PERMALINK
Bush only wants to kick this ball 2 years down the road - just long enough that when it unravels, it's on the next guy's watch. All he wants is the oportunity to be able to spin his legacy through the right wing channels, libraries setup in his name etc.

Posted by: Name on December 7, 2006 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK
The US and Iraq are two democracies that are unable to make their governments do what the people want. That cannot lead to a positive outcome.

Posted by: Hostile on December 7, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK
I was under the impression that the real problem in Iraq was the civil war underway rather than the anti-American insurgency.

Of course, I don't really expect the New New Plan will address that anymore than addresses how long American forces will be in the country.

Posted by: Linus on December 7, 2006 at 2:25 PM | PERMALINK
Arkin also makes the salutary point that this plan "merely kicks the day of reckoning further down the road."

Umm, I thought that was the Bush plan? Hang on grimly for another two years, getting hundreds of thousands killed while doing so, until he can hand the hot potato over to his successor?

Posted by: Stefan on December 7, 2006 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK
Bush only wants to kick this ball 2 years down the road

This is the only part of any Bush "plan" that we can be sure of, other than the probability of the results of any Bush "plan" making things worse than they are now.

Posted by: Nemo on December 7, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK
Always remember: things can get even worse than they are now. They have for each of the previous three years, after all.

Always good to keep that in mind. Also worth remembering: Improvement, if any, will be slow and arduous, but things could get worse very fast. The power to decide lies mostly with the Iraqis. What can we deduce from their responses up to now?

Posted by: extracholesterol on December 7, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK
The US and Iraq are two democracies that are unable to make their governments do what the people want.
That is impossible; if the people are unable to make their governments do what the people want, the states are, ipso facto, not democracies.

Posted by: cmdicely on December 7, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK
Um, I think that's Hostile's point, Dicely. Probably yours as well.

Posted by: grape_crush on December 7, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK
"Name," above (as well as some others), has it right. The overarching plan is to keep juggling this thing, marking time as well as they can, until the next poor schlub has to take it in January of '09.

Then it won't matter. If the guy's a Democrat, so much the better - so that, thirty years from now, the wingnuts can claim that we "could have" won in Iraq if only the defeatist Dems hadn't cut and run! And if he's a Republican - well, at least his name isn't Bush.

Posted by: Alek Hidell on December 7, 2006 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK
I thought that was the Bush plan?
Bush? Plan? I doubt it.

Posted by: cmdicely on December 7, 2006 at 2:48 PM | PERMALINK
It's past time to take off the gloves and brand this war for what it is -- the Republicans war in Iraq. Most Democrats are for getting out; most Republicans are for staying. If we get out any time soon, credit the Democrats. If we don't, credit the Republicans (and that includes the Republicans poster boy, the elderly John McCain).

Posted by: Robert Dare on December 7, 2006 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK
Jeb Bush in 08.

Posted by: gregor on December 7, 2006 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK
i don't know how to react. the pinkos don't like the ISG, so i like it. OTOH, bush doesn't like it, so neither do i. no easy talking points on this one

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
Wait just a second, Kevin. A week ago, down on the "TAKING SIDES" thread, you said that the "80 percent" solution was the worst possible scenario--I think your exact words were "It's hard to imagine a more disastrous end to a disastrous war." Now we are supposed to "Always remember: things can get even worse..."?

Posted by: Pale Rider on December 7, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
And it will get worse, Kevin. There will be a large-scale assault on the Green Zone soon and when the American public sees heaps of dead bodies, particularly American ones, the outcry will be shrill. If Bush survives his second term and is not impeached, he will have an approval rating in the single digits or roughly the percentage of Americans who are regular Rush Limbaugh listeners.

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on December 7, 2006 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK
OTOH, no members of the ISG were against the war, so i guess they can be trusted. OTOH, they say to talk to a member of the axis of evil, which is distinctly not what john wayne would have done, had he ever served his country, so i say no. jim baker is just an hysterical bush hater. ow my head

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK
ahh, gregor has shown me a way out. Yay Jeb!

Posted by: an al on December 7, 2006 at 3:01 PM | PERMALINK
Kevin said Every extra day that we spend in Iraq merely makes our eventual disengagement harder and bloodier.

Difficult to assess this assertion without clarification. More difficult and bloodier for whom? In what way? Do I sense a note of hysteria here? Is the insurgency going to attack the green zone with nukes? Is Kevin afraid he will be left off the front wagon in the cut and run bandwagon?

Posted by: Michael7843853 G-O in 08! on December 7, 2006 at 3:08 PM | PERMALINK
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
5

Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
6

Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." (While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land." (In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')

___________________

If we do not confront this guy and take his evil regime out now by whatever means necessary, history will repeat itself.
Let's bomb them now while they're occupied:

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is lying in a “royal suite” in the spiffy Vanak hospital (that’s its old name, which most Tehranis use) in Tehran. He wanted to leave today but the doctors would not permit it. I guess doctors have the last word, even in a dispute with the Supreme Leader. Heh. He arrived there late yesterday afternoon local time, after feeling cold, breaking out in a cold sweat, and losing feeling in his feet. The initial examination found low blood pressure and a slow pulse rate. They originally feared internal bleeding, but have tentatively concluded that he “only” suffers from a weakened heart. On top of his cancer, that is.

More tomorrow, I hope. But note that this coronary crisis coincides with a very intense power struggle within the regime itself, leading up to the elections of the Guardian Council. In recent days, there was a very suspicious airplane crash that killed several top Revolutionary Guards officers, and the recent draft law in Parliament that would effectively reduce Ahmadinezhad’s term by a full year.

Exciting times, eh what?

Posted by: nina on December 7, 2006 at 12:18 AM | PERMALINK
The Berlin Declaration on the Incitement to Genocide by the Regime of Iran – November 2006

*Background - This document was drafted by the Honorable Professor Irwin Cotler (former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada; Law Professor of Human Rights – on leave McGill University) and Dr Charles Small (Director of the Yale University Initiative on the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism). This document was first presented to the OSCE experts meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism" Berlin 20 and 21 November 2006, at the Bundestag/ German Parliament – Berlin. Dr. Small read it into the record and distributed it to those in attendance. He encouraged all present, especially members of governments, to address the incitement engaged by members of the Iranian regime and that governments take responsibility to these actions as defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Whereas the Contracting Parties to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law,which they undertake to prevent and to punish. (Article One) Whereas, under the Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group... and includes, under Article Three (c) the prohibition against direct and public incitement to commit genocide Whereas, under Article Four, persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals. Whereas, under Article Eight, any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three. Whereas, under Article Nine, disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article Three, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Whereas, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the government of Iran, have consistently violated the prohibition against direct and public incitement to genocide, in their clear and persistent calls for the “annihilation” of Israel and for “Israel to be wiped off the map, as the Imam says”.

Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the United Nations Charter’s prohibition against any threat or act against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State of the United Nations.
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements also violate the prohibition in the Statute for an International Criminal Court against the public and direct genocidal threats and incitements.
1
Whereas these public and direct genocidal threats and incitements are accompanied by a publicly avowed intent to acquire nuclear weapons, so as to “eliminate” Israel “in one single storm.”
Therefore, be it resolved, that the OSCE expert meeting on "Best Practices in Combating Anti-Semitism", on the 21 November 2006, at the Deutscher Bundestag/ German Parliament - in Berlin adopt the following; i) calls upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the public and direct incitements to commit genocide as enumerated under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention;
ii) recommends that disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of the OSCE or any of its members;
iii) recommends that the OSCE, or any of its member states, refer to the United Nations Security Council the situation of the genocidal criminality, under Article Three (c) of the Genocide Convention, of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and other former and present members of the Iranian government, for further reference to the Special Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation.
____________________
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
2
• (a) Killing members of the group;
• (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3
The following acts shall be punishable:
• (a) Genocide;
• (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
• (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
• (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
• (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article 5
The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6
Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article 7
3
Genocide and the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall not be considered as political crimes for the purpose of extradition. The Contracting Parties pledge themselves in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their laws and treaties in force.

Article 8
Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 9
Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Article 10
The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall bear the date of 9 December 1948.

Article 11
The present Convention shall be open until 31 December 1949 for signature on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State to which an invitation to sign has been addressed by the General Assembly. The present Convention shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations. After 1 January 1950, the present Convention may be acceded to on behalf of any Member of the United Nations and of any non-member State which has received an invitation as aforesaid. 4
Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 12
Any Contracting Party may at any time, by notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, extend the application of the present Convention to all or any of the territories for the conduct of whose foreign relations that Contracting Party is responsible.

Article 13
On the day when the first twenty instruments of ratification or accession have been deposited, the Secretary-General shall draw up a proces-verbal and transmit a copy of it to each Member of the United Nations and to each of the non-member States contemplated in Article 11. The present Convention shall come into force on the ninetieth day following the date of deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession. Any ratification or accession effected subsequent to the latter date shall become effective on the ninetieth day following the deposit of the instrument of ratification or accession.

Article 14
The present Convention shall remain in effect for a period of ten years as from the date of its coming into force. It shall thereafter remain in force for successive periods of five years for such Contracting Parties as have not denounced it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. Denunciation shall be effected by a written notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article 15
If, as a result of denunciations, the number of Parties to the present Convention should become less than sixteen, the Convention shall cease to be in force as from the date on which the last of these denunciations shall become effective.
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Article 16
A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any Contracting Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General. The General Assembly shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article 17
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall notify all Members of the United Nations and the non-member States contemplated in Article 11 of the following:
• (a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions received in accordance with Article 11;
• (b) Notifications received in accordance with Article 12;
• (c) The date upon which the present Convention comes into force in accordance with Article 13;
• (d) Denunciations received in accordance with Article 14;
• (e) The abrogation of the Convention in accordance with Article 15;
• (f) Notifications received in accordance with Article 16.

Article 18
The original of the present Convention shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations. A certified copy of the Convention shall be transmitted to all Members of the United Nations and to the non-member States contemplated in Article 11.

Article 19
The present Convention shall be registered by the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the date of its coming into force.
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Addition Material on the incitement to Genocide –
Recent and relevant quotes by - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

October 2006 – Amadinajad a message to Europe.
Since You Brought [This Regime] Over There, You Yourselves Pick it up, By the Arms and Legs, and Remove it From There" "Our proposal is as follows: Since you brought [this regime] over there, you yourselves pick it up, by the arms and legs, and remove it from there. This will make the peoples of the region improve their attitude toward you. These will be the first steps to a long-lasting friendship with the peoples of the region. This will be to your advantage. "You may say: 'We feel uncomfortable doing this, because the Zionists control our countries, the propaganda machinery is at their disposal, and if we want to gain voters, we need their money and their support. Therefore, we feel uncomfortable doing this.'

August 6, 2006 "They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals." (as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006 "A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel." (as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website) August 2, 2006 "Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame." (as quoted by Iranian TV)

July 16, 2006 "The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan." (as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006 "The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day." "The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall." "[Israel] has blackened the pages of history". (as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006 "I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties." "An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups." "If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?" (a news conference following a meeting with China's president)

May 28, 2006 "I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?" "We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from." (in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006 Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish." (to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)

April 24, 2006 ''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries." (In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)

April 14, 2006 "The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm." "If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years." (In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on

April 14-16 hosted in Tehran) February 23, 2006 "These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers
that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts." (In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)

January 5, 2006 "Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final." (To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA) "[N]o Muslim nation would put up with this entity [i.e. Israel] in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the [Europeans] committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime [Israel] were terrified at the suggestion that [Israel] should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006 "[The creation of Israel after World War II] killed two birds with one stone [for Europe] … [The objectives achieved by Europe were] [s]weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new [form of] fascism." (In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)

December 14, 2005 "Today, they [Europeans] have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." (Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005 "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe." (While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land." (In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')

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