A fraud. He'd be a hypocrite if he actually believed some of the tripe he was spewing.

Does anyone know what begging the question actually means?

Fraud for two points.

Both.

And just this side of batshit crazy.

It points to the question, is McCain really as big of a fraud as he seems?

It's more than a little ironic that McCain, Mr. Straight Talk Express, has chosen a campaign manager whose career represents a laundry list of scandal.

And he has NEVER BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME. Why can't liberals believe conservatives are innocent unless PROVEN guilty of a crime?

Brian: It's the same thing as circular reasoning, acording to my high school debate coach. And Robert's Rules of Order, iirc.

Brian,

What begging the question means to philosophy professors or what it means to everyone else?

The phrase has been adopted by the general public with a slight change in meaning. Its already happened. Get over it.

sleepy,

It's my windmill and I'll tilt if I want to.

McCain, McCain, wasn't he the guy the hugged Bush even after Bush trashed him?

Yeah, that's the guy.

Yuck!

He hasn't been indicted, let alone convicted, of a crime so stop slandering him.

As for the ad: Yeah, it's really below the belt to say a candidate is able to attract playboy bunnies. What an insult!

Sorry if I seemed harsh but I've heard that song before.

Change the colon to a period if it helps.

when employing among young repubs, it must be difficult to NOT pick out someone with criminal tendancies.

Is McCain a hypocrite, a fraud, or both?

Either, both, or neither, you decide -- but he's definitely suffering from VOMD (Vain Old Man Disease); very common inside the Beltway.

Bob Herbert, behind the NY Times subscription wall, writes this morning:

In a foreword to "The Best and the Brightest," David Halberstam’s chronicle of the Vietnam fiasco, Senator John McCain wrote:

"It was a shameful thing to ask men to suffer and die, to persevere through god-awful afflictions and heartache, to endure the dehumanizing experiences that are unavoidable in combat, for a cause that the country wouldn’t support over time and that our leaders so wrongly believed could be achieved at a smaller cost than our enemy was prepared to make us pay.

"No other national endeavor requires as much unshakable resolve as war. If the nation and the government lack that resolve, it is criminal to expect men in the field to carry it alone."

Fraud. Hypocrite. Man who is willing to sacrifice the lives of hundreds of soldiers for no gain to anything besides his Presidential campaign.

Moral leper.

I wish the improper use of "begs the question" didn't bother me so much.

No, he's a maverick!

I mean, there he is in the 80's getting caught taking apparent bribes as part of the Keating 5!

But then he turns it around to make a name for himself, championing "bipartisan" campaign finance reform regulations that overwhelmingly benefited his party and cleaned up his reputation!

But now, just to continue his maverick streak, he's shedding his "clean guy" image because he's not going to be all TRENDY and oppose hard-knuckle corrupt politics just because it's the popular thing to do! Nope, he's gonna run for office with a dirty tricks campaign manager because he's NOT beholden to any special interest group, certainly not those good-government reformers!

Wow, what an independent maverick!

Or, alternatively, he's a flip-flopping politician who's managed to charm reporters and the Washington power elite, who instead of reporting on him impartially, report on him like a friend, and put the best possible face on all his cynical flip-floppings.

John McCain will never be President. He's ugly, old and short.

Ah, but ya know what? It does not matter what a crazy lying fool McBain is, cuz on 1/20/09 he will be sitting outside the western front of the US Capitol watching Sen. Barak Obama take the oath as our 44th president.

Wow. So McCain is hiring a guy who was too sleazy for Wal-Mart.

FYI:
(I'm bored of McCain. Go away, McCain).

Ted Haggard has company.

>>I wish the improper use of "begs the question" didn't bother me so much.
Posted by: keptsimple

When I studied political philosophy and logic it meant posing a question in such a way as to presuppose the desired answer.

All politicians are frauds and hypocrites. The difference with McCain is that the media actively adds to the defrauding.

Brian: "Does anyone know what begging the question actually means?"

Everybody does, though they differ on what the answer is. Sleepy got it right. It used to mean an argument in which a premise presumed the conclusion. Now (as used by ordinary native speakers of the language) it means either that or "brings up the question." Since each group thinks you get it wrong when you use it the other way, it should simply be avoided.

Same thing with "comprise." It used to mean the whole comprises the parts, but now it is usually used to mean the parts comprise the whole, so it's best to avoide it entirely, since one group or the other will think you used it wrong, and one side of the argument will get snippy about it (the ex-English majors).

As to the substance of the issue regarding McCain, he seems to be both, although since hypocrisy is a type of fraud, the distinction is very slight.

"Just win, baby."

When I studied political philosophy and logic it meant posing a question in such a way as to presuppose the desired answer.
Posted by: MsNThrope on December 11, 2006 at 3:16 PM | PERMALINK

Pundits and political reporters do not take "Political Philosophy" or "Logic". Nor do they take any science at all, as near as I can tell. (except that subject called "Economics" that likes to masquerade as a science). Sometimes, I think they take a remedial spelling class or two. That's about it.

I'm finding this discussion much more interesting than the mental mastrubation that is speculating about 2008 presidential contenders. As if we won't have Madam President Pelosi by the end of 2007.

ER: Pundits and political reporters do not take "Political Philosophy" or "Logic". Nor do they take any science at all, as near as I can tell.

No lie.

pol·i·ti·cian
Function: noun
1 : narcistic sociopath intent on gaining power
2 : a person who acts in a manipulative and devious way, typically to gain advancement
3 : a lying, thieving, backstabbing, silver haired phony

Both.

And just this side of batshit crazy.

Posted by: MsNThrope

You forgot stupid. McCain is also kinda stupid. It's one of them open secrets in DC

3 : a lying, thieving, backstabbing, silver tongued phony.

That's how I woulda said it, anyway.

3 : a lying, thieving, backstabbing, silver tongued phony.

Speaking of that, what happened to Charlie? I was off most of the weekend, so seem to have missed these new anti-troll features WM management implemented. What happened, exactly, and what are the new features?

Politics, n. strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. - Ambrose Bierce

The standard of of intellect in politics is so low that men of moderate mental capacity have to stoop in order to reach it. - Hillaire Belloc

Speaking of that, what happened to Charlie?

new job working for McCain ?

the proper use of 'begs the question' seems to be a lost cause. i don't think 'palate/palette/pallet' should be all that hard to keep straight, though.

but since people seem only to be able to choose between 'its/it's' about half the time, it's no surprise.

your pedantic pal,
blake

John McCain will never be President. He's ugly, old and short.

Hey, I'm not -- I mean "he's" not -- ug...sh...

At least I'm not bald!

What's is McCain? He's BORING! If ever I'm having trouble getting to sleep I try to find him on the tube giving a speech and I'm out like a light. Oh yeah. And he's a backstabber (see John Kerry's botched joke and the nonsense that followed courtesy of disengenuous Republicans - some of them fellow veterens.)

Blake, my own lonely crusade for the preservation of homonyms leaves room for another apparently lost cause - the rampant misuse of both 'hopefully' and 'literally'.

'It's' is a contraction of 'it is'. 'Its' is the possessive. And, yes, it bothers me too. So many superfluous or misplaced apostrophes.

Human moderators, apparently, Stefan. As soon as he posts, they bite the dust.

I considered writing that "they byte the dust, but decided that was too cute by half.

Methinks we have today's entry in Atrios' "Simple Answers to Simple Questions" feature.

Begging the question

What's is McCain?

How's that for an timely illustration of 'superfluous apostrophes.'?

Say what?

It looks like that high-school debate coach I mentioned upthread could have written that Wiki entry.

MsNThorpe - Touche'. I mispelled a word. Of course I meant to say "What is McCain?" But is it any worse "..for AN timely..."? Say What?

"An argument which begs the question is one in which a premise presupposes the conclusion in some way."

Just so. I had a truly great debate coach.

I wouldn't mind the "begs the question" thing so much if the meaning had evolved to fill a need, like a lot of "business english" (grating though it is!) has. But there's no reason a person can't just as easily say, "raises the question." If someone's going to use a phrase like "begs the question" because it sounds zippy or more literary than anything else, they he or she might as well use it correctly, goddammit.

More about The phone-jamming scandal here:

The 2002 New Hampshire Senate election phone jamming scandal involves the use of a telemarketing firm hired by that state's Republican Party (NHGOP) for election tampering.

During that state's 2002 election for the U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Robert C. Smith, the NHGOP hired GOP Marketplace, based in Northern Virginia, to jam another phone bank being used by the state Democratic Party and the firefighters' union for efforts to turn out voters on behalf of then-governor Jeanne Shaheen on Election Day. John E. Sununu, the Republican candidate, won a narrow victory. In addition to criminal prosecutions, disclosures in the case have come from a civil suit filed by the state's Democratic Party against the state's Republican Party.

Nelson bio here.

"An argument which begs the question is one in which a premise presupposes the conclusion in some way."

That's not an argument, that's just contradiction.

SamT,

Good defintions. Ambrose Bierce defined it as "POLITICIAN, n. An eel in the fundamental mud upon which the superstructure of organized society is reared. When he wriggles he mistakes the agitation of his tail for the trembling of the edifice. As compared with the statesman, he suffers the disadvantage of being alive."

In fact, nobody needs to give up on "begs the question." Those who advise letting it slide are just wrong, very, very wrong. There you go. So who's this McCain guy everyone's pissed off at?

Well this is nice and all, but after y'all get done with the Grammar-Rodeo-And-Circle-Jerk could we talk about just how to stop this conservative Republican from getting elected? It's not like the MSM is going to start begging or pointing to any questions about McCain's "maverick" status.
That would require, you know, work.

That's not an argument, that's just contradiction.

No it isn't!

MsNThorpe - Touche'. I mispelled [sic] a word. Of course I meant to say "What is McCain?" But is it any worse "..for AN timely..."? Say What?
Posted by: lamonte

No. 'An timely' is egregious. Begging pardon of all.

...could we talk about just how to stop this conservative Republican from getting elected? It's not like the MSM is going to start begging or pointing to any questions about McCain's "maverick" status.
That would require, you know, work.
Posted by: Cazart

Maybe I've got rose-colored glasses on, but I'm not too terribly convinced that he's all that electable. Or to be more precise, once McCain finishes with all the running to the right he'll need to do to get the Republican nomination (like showing up at Falwell's university), I'm thinking the general populace will have trouble seeing him as the straight-talking, middle of the road guy he'll try to cross back over to for the general election.

Not that I think he is straight-talking or middle of the road but the media is still flogging that line for him (for some reason). Funny how the laxity of our fourth estate causes so much harm.

In fact, nobody needs to give up on "begs the question." Those who advise letting it slide are just wrong, very, very wrong. There you go.
Posted by: HJA

Hear, hear.

HJA: I wouldn't mind the "begs the question" thing so much if the meaning had evolved to fill a need, like a lot of "business english" (grating though it is!) has. ... they he or she might as well use it correctly, goddammit.

Skitt's law (from alt.usage.english) says that any post that corrects a previous post's grammar, punctuation, or spelling will have at least one error in grammar, punctuation, or spelling.

I wouldn't bring it up if we weren't already in full pedant mode, but Mrs. Grundy would write, "as a lot of 'business english' has ..."

Not to mention the fact that the word is really "goddamnit"...

anonymous: "I mean, there [McCain] is in the 80's getting caught taking apparent bribes as part of the Keating 5!"

I don't believe that McCain was ever charged with or sanctioned for bribery -- that was never proven. However, he was reprimanded by the Senate for providing his Arizona constituent Charles Keating with a veneer or respectability and decorum, and for using his position to open official doors for him. And to be fair, I do believe that Sen. McCain has since apologized for his consorting with Keating and his pals.

Humorous aside -- I once worked as a personal trainer at a chain of health clubs in Honolulu that was owned by one of Keating's fellow S&L conspirators, a guy by the name of Don Diamond. I learned about what went down with Keating and Diamond only when I showed up for work one day to find that the clubs had been seized by the feds, who thereupon chained the doors shut. My fellow (suddenly ex-) employees and I never did receive our last paychecks from them.

'Twas only the beginning of my political awakening ...

Skitt's law (from alt.usage.english) says that any post that corrects a previous post's grammar, punctuation, or spelling will have at least one error in grammar, punctuation, or spelling.
Posted by: anandine on December 11, 2006 at 4:45 PM | PERMALINK

Tue Troo!

Does anyone know what begging the question actually means?

It has two distinct meanings, one when used transitively and the other when used intransitively; it is completely unambiguous which one is being used, and indeed the intransitive use can be looked at as a special case of the transitive use (where the question "begged" is the one already being discussed), which shouldn't be surprising since the transitive use is a generalization from and rationalization of the intransitive use, which on its own is rather odd English, being, IIRC, a somewhat poor translation from Greek by way of Latin.

For some reason (perhaps a desperate need to feel superior with nothing better to assert as a basis of superiority) some people habitually insist that the intransitive use is the only "proper" one.

Does that about cover it?

I, for one, would be perfectly happy if people would stop using the word "literally" when they mean the opposite.

Such as: "I'll literally die if..."

When are people going to wake up to McCain. From the Keating 5 forward John McCain has talked a great game, but his actions never seem to stood up under examination.

He is a pander monkey who will do or say anything to be elected President. Do we really want somebody as President who wants the job as bad as McCain.

How do we convince the media who worship the very ground he walks on that McCain speaks with forked tongue?

Skitt's law (from alt.usage.english) says that any post that corrects a previous post's grammar, punctuation, or spelling will have at least one error in grammar, punctuation, or spelling.
Posted by: anandine on December 11, 2006 at 4:45 PM | PERMALINK

Tue Troo!

McCain has been a fraud since the beginning of his political career. He was never from Arizona and only moved there to take Rep. Rhodes' Republican district seat.

McCain, once an honorable man I would have considered crossing party lines to vote for, is becoming a parody of both a war hero and a man with convictions. He is now a spineless flip-flopper who would sacrifice military personnel for his political ambitions.

Obama will kick his geriatric ass.

When are people going to wake up to McCain.

they'll wake up as soon as the press tells them to.

Joe: I, for one, would be perfectly happy if people would stop using the word "literally" when they mean the opposite.

Such as: "I'll literally die if..."

I'd be just as happy if it turned out to be literally true, as in "my head literally exploded." I'd love to see that (from a safe distance).

Not to mention the fact that the word is really "goddamnit"...

Oh, nonsense, monsieur le craigie. It's either "God/god damn it" or "goddammit." Like "Forget about it" vs. "fuhgeddaboutit."

Sheesh!

It has two distinct meanings, one when used transitively and the other when used intransitively; it is completely unambiguous which one is being used, and indeed the intransitive use can be looked at as a special case of the transitive use (where the question "begged" is the one already being discussed), which shouldn't be surprising since the transitive use is a generalization from and rationalization of the intransitive use, which on its own is rather odd English, being, IIRC, a somewhat poor translation from Greek by way of Latin.

Has the annual period shortage in California started already? ;) (or ; ))

I think I saw that on Mythbusters, anandine.

"I wouldn't bring it up if we weren't already in full pedant mode, but Mrs. Grundy would write, 'as a lot of 'business english' has ...'"

Oh, yeah? Well, uh, that's funny, because I happen to have Marshall McLuhan right here, and . . . argh, forget it, I am undone. I also see that I used the word "they" instead of "then," just undermining my own cause all over the place. As for that transitive and intransitive stuff, it literally went way over my head.

According to CNN, Ohion Rep. Dennis Kucinich will announce his candidacy for the 2008 Democratic Party nomination for president tomorrow.

Kucinich has called for the new Democratic majority in Congress to end the war by cutting off funding for it, and says he has decided to run because the Democratic Congressional leadership seems inclined to perpetuate the war by continuing to approve money for it.

Does anyone know what begging the question actually means?

Oh lordy. Not again.

anonymous cracked me up with this:

But now, just to continue his maverick streak, he's shedding his "clean guy" image because he's not going to be all TRENDY and oppose hard-knuckle corrupt politics just because it's the popular thing to do! Nope, he's gonna run for office with a dirty tricks campaign manager because he's NOT beholden to any special interest group, certainly not those good-government reformers!

Extradite Rumsfeld caught my eye with this:

I'm finding this discussion much more interesting than the mental mastrubation that is speculating about 2008 presidential contenders. As if we won't have Madam President Pelosi by the end of 2007.

Stop it--you know what that kind of talk does to me! rrrrRRRRRrrrr!

Oh moddddddds, you missed a Charlie test post at the end of the Harry S Bush thread.

No charge.

As for that transitive and intransitive stuff, it literally went way over my head.
Posted by: HJA

Mr. Dicely brought me up short as well. I take a certain measure of pride in my long ago straight A's in Advanced Grammar, but it zoomed over my head as well, creating quite a draft.

Transitive verbs must have an object. Intransitive verbs do not have an object.

Transitive: They towed the boat.
Intransitive: He steals for a living.

I haven't yet seen one of these unzapped Charlie comments. The moderator must be quick. Well done, sir or madam.

BOTH!!!!!!!

Oh moddddddds, you missed a Charlie test post at the end of the Harry S Bush thread.

Is this for real? Be still, my beating heart!

Oh, nonsense, monsieur le craigie.

Tish, that's French!

Stefan: I haven't yet seen one of these unzapped Charlie comments. The moderator must be quick. Well done, sir or madam.

Kevin: BOTH!!!!!!!

My thanks as well. This has been a much better day because of fewer trolls.

Fewer trolls...no bloghogs,,,Extradite Rumsfeld painting teasingly tasty images of Bush/Cheney going bye-bye...if we could just get some cupcakes in here, what else would we need?

For some reason (perhaps a desperate need to feel superior with nothing better to assert as a basis of superiority) some people habitually insist that the intransitive use is the only "proper" one.
Does that about cover it?
Posted by: cmdicely

Oh, good grief. The intransitive (while not the best of translations) is the proper one.

Why is McCain considered a war hero??????

McCain has not seen a Republican win the Presidency without a paying hired guns to spread an lot of crap about their opponents. It's one thing that made a Democrat out of me. Republicans are just too nasty.

GWB out nastied McCain by a long shot last time around and that's how he won. So...

Does that about cover it?

Hey, that's a funny post old boy. Hardy har har. Really.

RT,

Perhaps Crooked Talk could say that about Viet Nam because it was started by the supposedly "The Best and the Brightest".

Iraq on the other hand was started by the "Mediocre and the Dumbest" - As he feels more comfortable with them, how could he criticize his own?

Shorts...no cupcakes here, but later in the week I will be Baking my traditional Christmas herbal cookies - quite popular among my neighbors.

Thanks, Kevin, for your timely post. For a ready made review of McCain's FLIP-FLOPPING, please refer to http://releases.usnewswire.com/Get Release.asp?id=63389
What has been happening, as clearly documented by the Democratic National Committee on 4/2/06, are McCain's clear shifts/changes of positions, evasions, and outright temporary expediency for himself...at the expense of genuine principle, he has sought immediate political gain...they list many examples, I'm sorry for the inevitable length of this post:abortion: 1999 he opposed overturning Roe v Wade; 2006: he wouldn't be bothered by supreme court ban on abortion, would sign Douth Dakota's abortion ban. Called Falwell "evil influence" on GOP 5/28/05, then met with Falwell, speaking at Liberty University/"agreed to disagree" interview on Meet the Press 4/2/06; tax cuts: opposed Bush tax cuts 5/27/01, 3/18/03. Voted for Bush tax cuts 2006. 8/99--says local schools should decide teaching creationalism. 05: Says young people have right to be told about intelligent design, refused to exclude it from science classes. Campaign finance: champion for reform 2001; laying groundwork to opt out of campaign finance system for 08 campaign, national journal 12/05, Hotline on call, 12/05. Continued to carry water for Geo Bush but flip-flopped: had no confidence in Bush's handling of war 12/04...2/06: says Bush administration "earned our trust on the war of terror."
Wiretaps: 1/22/06-FOX news-thought NSA domestic spying program was illegal; 1/25/06 NBC news: backed off claim that wiretap program was illegal.
Irag: McCain said the US made "serious mistake" which led to insurgent victories in Iraq. On MSNBC 3/0/6>>>>says Irag was on the right track.

McCain took the double talk express for a spin on Meet the Press April 2, 2006, trying to cast himself as a straight shooter, yet his answers on important issues continued to shift.
As Russert noted, John McCain told America in an interview that he "DOESN'T LIKE TO LOSE."

Be aware, be very aware

McCain is too old for the presidency. He's too old and too tired. You can see it in revealing flashes on television, though the tv photographers for reasons of their own try to cover for him. His voice is weak; compare today with a few years ago. He is beginning to walk fast for short distances, the ruse of an old man who wants to show a vigor he no longer has. I suspect his handlers will pull a Bob Dole and picture him in shorts and seated on an exercise bicycle, though not exercising on it. His face has aged so much that the amount of pancake makeup he now must use in front of the kleig lights is more and more obvious. John McCain is a tired old man who missed his chance for the presidency after a smear job by the Bush Campaign but stubbornly winds himself up each day hoping that no one will notice and if they do notice that they won't say anything. Well, it's high time to start saying something. The mess the next president will face demands a vigor that McCain just no longer possesses. McCain should serve out his days in the Senate where old folks are the norm and which in many ways is made for the comfort of old folks.

Whatever McCain is now, he has lost this Navy vet's respect, and possible vote. And despite being a life-long democrat, I would have voted for him in 2000 if he would have been the repub candidate.
Can't trust him now. McCain's straight talking days are long gone, I'm afraid. He has sold out, and can no longer claim to be an honorable and honest man.

On behalf of reality based people everywhere, I want to applaud the posters on this thread for not feeding the trolls. Nary a crumb. Maybe this will keep 'em away...

Which is worse? A campaign manager who makes a racist ad, or a political party that propogates the racist myth that African Americans are incapable of success without special help from the federal government?

Which is worse? A campaign manager who makes a racist ad, or a political party that propogates the racist myth that African Americans are incapable of success without special help from the federal government?

Well, given that one exists in real life, and the other only in the hyperemotional twaddle (h/t shortstop) of the wingnutosphere, the campaign manager, of course. Shame on McCain for embracing him -- but then, McCain embraced Bush, whose campaign undertook a racist whispering campaign that smeared McCain's own adopted daughter.

Both. Oh, and McCain is about as authentic as the Cracker Barrel.

Put me in the "both" column.

"An argument which begs the question is one in which a premise presupposes the conclusion in some way."

So put me in the column, too, that thinks this was a CORRECT usage of "begs the question."

The presumed answer is "both."