I don't know anything about Wilson, but I'd be surprised if Specter didn't remember.

Posted by: ferd on December 13, 2006 at 7:49 PM | PERMALINK

You should have your dad call his office on the anniversary of the tourney, shout "IN YOUR FACE, SPECTER! IN YOUR FACE," and then hang up.

It could be a yearly ritual. I can see this becoming a very exciting grudge match: Drum, Sr. v. Specter on the floor of the Senate!

Posted by: anonymous on December 13, 2006 at 7:58 PM | PERMALINK

You should send him a computer letter.

Posted by: dk on December 13, 2006 at 8:01 PM | PERMALINK

Who is William Carey?

Posted by: Mudge on December 13, 2006 at 8:07 PM | PERMALINK

What's your father upto nowadays???

Posted by: ppk on December 13, 2006 at 8:09 PM | PERMALINK

We just sat around havin' a few drinks, she said when she feels like cryin' she starts laughin', thinkin' 'bout... glory days.

Posted by: Chocolate Thunder on December 13, 2006 at 8:15 PM | PERMALINK

I say you call Specter and laugh at him. Specter is my Senator(that's right, I took joy in sending Man-on-Dog packing). I can't stand Specter either, the traitor he is. Any chance one gets to laugh at Arlen is good by me.

Posted by: Ghost of Tom Joad on December 13, 2006 at 8:16 PM | PERMALINK

The questions for these debates look somewhat strange (although this may just reflect my opinion of debate contests). For example, "That the congress of the United States should enact a compulsory fair employment practices law" is pretty vague. What is the law in question going to say? Maybe in 1953 everyone had a very specific idea about what a fair employment practices law would be like.

Additionally, if you're just debating one specific proposed change against the status quo, I don't find this a particularly useful exercise if there's a huge range of proposed changes from the status quo. Extending diplomatic recognition to China (a question from a different year) seems like a much better topic of debate, since it’s more of an “either or” deal.

Posted by: Joel W on December 13, 2006 at 8:17 PM | PERMALINK

I suspect it's more like people in 1953 had a consensus on what "fair" and "compulsory" meant, which is somewhat lacking in contemporary government.

Posted by: Aaron S. Veenstra on December 13, 2006 at 8:35 PM | PERMALINK

Yea!...What?

Posted by: Keith G on December 13, 2006 at 8:36 PM | PERMALINK

FAIR EMPLOYMENT = ANTI-DISCRIMINATION
http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/fepc.htm

On June 25, 1941, President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 8802 creating the Fair Employment Practices Committee (FEPC). The order banned racial discrimination in any defense industry receiving federal contracts by declaring "there shall be no discrimination in the employment of workers in defense industries or government because of race, creed, color, or national origin.

Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters President A. Philip Randolph, NAACP Executive Secretary Walter White, and NYA Minority Affairs Director Mary McLeod Bethune forced FDR to address the issue. Randolph, working with other civil rights activists, organized the 1941 March on Washington Movement to protest racial discrimination in defense industry and the military and threatened to bring 250,000 African Americans to Washington to demonstrate against congressional resistance to fair employment.

...The lure of defense industry jobs and promise of the FEPC triggered an enormous migration of African Americans from the South to defense plants. However, most African Americans were hired for menial jobs. A reluctant defense industry refused to comply with the order, arguing that if African Americans were hired as janitors, employers would be forced to integrate their workforce. In 1943, FDR decided to strengthen the FEPC after learning about how some employers were violating the spirit of the new order. As a result, he increased the FEPC budget to nearly half a million dollars and replaced the part-time Washington, D.C., staff with a professional full-time staff distributed throughout the country. By war's end the number of jobs held by African Americans was at an all-time high: African American civilians accounted for eight percent of defense-industry jobs, whereas before the war they only held three percent, and 200,000 thousand were employed by the government, more than triple the number before the war. A majority of those employed, however, still held menial jobs.

...In 1948 Truman, after reading the recommendations of his Commission on Civil Rights, sent a civil rights package to Congress calling for a permanent FEPC, antilynching legislation, and the abolishment of the poll tax. The conservative coalition in Congress blocked Truman's request. In 1950, the House approved a permanent FEPC bill but southern senators filibustered and killed the bill...

It's so absurd when the current White House claims to be Truman-esque.

Posted by: sysprog on December 13, 2006 at 8:48 PM | PERMALINK

The democrats strike back logo.

http://liberalthunderdome.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Liberal Thunderdome on December 13, 2006 at 8:52 PM | PERMALINK

The quality of school debating has certainly declined from your father's day. When I did it in the 1970s, it was dominated by pure speed -- the fastest talkers tended to win. It still attracted good people, but clearly it needed rules changes to keep attracting the best. Unfortunately, the rules changes didn't arrive in time, and the quality level of participants has now gone down.

Posted by: Steve Sailer on December 13, 2006 at 9:34 PM | PERMALINK

Had James Q as a professor at B school (UCLA). Ridiculously smart guy - terrific book, a classic on bureaucracy - but alas, one so wedded to the small government visions of the Reagan folks that any discourse was for naught.

You must have had one damn smart dad Kevin. Old Arlen ain't no slouch in the brains department either.

Posted by: martin on December 13, 2006 at 9:35 PM | PERMALINK

I see your old man also edged out one "Charles Lindbergh", as well. I guess being the first man to cross the Atlantic Ocean alone in a plane wasn't enough kudos, he had to go for the big thrill that can only come from debating!

[By the way, don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, Kevin!]

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on December 13, 2006 at 9:47 PM | PERMALINK

sysprog- thanks, that makes more sense. To me, "Fair employment practices" could mean "minimum wage" in addition to "anti-discrimination", for example. It wouldn't be a good debate if the pro-person argued in favor of an anti-discrimination bill while the con-person argued against a minimum wage. In the early 1950s, a fair employment practices bill would probably be seen as a bill very similar to the FEPC bill blocked in 1950, so that would have been a specific topic.

Posted by: Joel W on December 13, 2006 at 9:47 PM | PERMALINK

Is the Joe Albritton on the debate teams the same Albritton of the Riggs Bank and a big-time Bush fund-raiser?

Posted by: kathyp on December 13, 2006 at 9:56 PM | PERMALINK

Ah, college debate. I participated in a couple of tournaments and hung around with the debate guys. It was kinda cool checking into my freshman dorm and knowing, through HS debate, one of the kids in my section of the dorm, a national champion in HS and in college. We'd played touch football between rounds at a tournament at Williamsburg.

It's funny how often I see the names of debaters I knew or knew of in HS or college debate show up in the news. Tony Corrado, who is at Brookings, or Bates or both. Jeff Pash, who is general counsel to the NFL. Mark Fabiani, who was a press person for Clinton. Larry Summers and Lawrence Tribe were debate people.

And I had this weird experience of running into a guy who works for Soros, who now controls the National Forensic League, the certifying agency for HS debate. It's part of an outreach attempt on his part to encourage dialogue in the US and around the world.

Posted by: jayackroyd on December 13, 2006 at 10:45 PM | PERMALINK

The quality of school debating has certainly declined from your father's day. When I did it in the 1970s, it was dominated by pure speed -- the fastest talkers tended to win. It still attracted good people, but clearly it needed rules changes to keep attracting the best. Unfortunately, the rules changes didn't arrive in time, and the quality level of participants has now gone down

Steve Sailer--

I've been told that on-topic debate--the debate style you're remembering, is no longer the most prestigious style. Off-topic, not extemp, but debate between two people on topics that are chosen at random before the debate is now the dominant style. The decline of on-topic debate, no doubt because of the issues you're talking about, is what led to the shocking national victory of Liberty University. They won against a thin field of on-topic debate teams.

I know that fast talking thing was irritating. The associated jargon was something I liked less (I talk fast anyway) referring to the mechanics of the procedure: "Go to the top of the flow."

But the best debaters spoke clearly, if quickly. There was a guy from California when I was around, named Gideon Mark, who spoke slowly, but so economically that he whipped the butts of the fast talkers.

Posted by: jayackroyd on December 13, 2006 at 10:52 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, and, Kevin, I'm absolutely certain that Specter and Wilson remember your father.

Posted by: jayackroyd on December 13, 2006 at 11:18 PM | PERMALINK

My father abandoned his first wife and kids then married my mother and proceeded to more or less ignore the next crop even though they never bothered to divorce.

Posted by: Linus on December 14, 2006 at 12:40 AM | PERMALINK

Cool.

Here's my brag on my grandfather. He was a well known Methodist minister in New York City in the 1940s through mid 1960s. He'd been on radio a number of times, so I looked him up at the Museum of Broadcasting when it opened. He was in a radio program on the anniversary of dropping the bomb in Japan --- it was a program calling for world government.

Haven't heard anyone call for that since then, have we?

He's also all over the internet on websites with famous quotes because of these words of his:

"The treacherous, unexplored areas of the world are not in continents or the seas; they are in the hearts and minds of men." ---Dr. Rev. Allen E. Claxton

Posted by: catherineD on December 14, 2006 at 1:08 AM | PERMALINK

Those not long-time readers may want to know that Kevin's dad passed away several years ago, though I am sure is fondly remembered by all who met him.

Posted by: Tom on December 14, 2006 at 2:17 AM | PERMALINK

Wasn't there a piece in the New Republic years ago blaming Laurence Tribe for the hypermodern National Debate Tournament debating style?

At the 1978 NDT in Denver there was a very sharp debater from Wake Forest who talked slowly but thought things through and went a long way in the tournament even with an average partner. It was inspiring to watch him.

The problem with the alternative formats long ago when I was around was that the debaters simply were not very good (me too). I wonder if that has changed.

Posted by: Ross Best on December 14, 2006 at 8:08 AM | PERMALINK

First, on-topic and off-topic are simply two different animals.

I did off-topic debate and loved it. But what it taught me was rhetoric and public speaking. I learned how to compose a speech on my feet and make strong stylistic statements that included vivid imagery designed to stick in the judges' minds.

On topic debate emphasizes research skills. On topic debaters learn to comb the library.

For that reason, on-topic is more the style for high school debate, where learning research skills is a more important goal that will stand you in good stead in college. Off topic is more suited to college, where learning public speaking and presentation skills will stand you in good stead in the job market. Neither is better. They are simply different.

But off-topic, or parliamentary, debate is relatively new in this country. Back in the day, the best and the brightest did on topic debate.

Of course, back in the day, research was more difficult, as you were limited not only by your library skills, but by your library itself. Electronic search engines and information repositories, from Lexus/Nexus to Google to online government records, make the research easier. So the challenge bcomes finding new or interesting information.

I still remember many of my opponents from my days of debate, and they still remember me. And my teammates, with whom I traveled almost every weekend, are still among my closest friends. It was formative for me. I hope your father, RIP, had as many wonderful memories of debate as I do, and that he was able to share his love of competition and debate with you.

Posted by: Ron on December 14, 2006 at 10:43 AM | PERMALINK

Word is that Specter was leading the debate by defending his position vigorously until the last round, when he decided that maybe he could live with a "compromise." Because said compromise was actually just a restatement of Kevin's father's position, the judges awarded the debate to Drum père.

Posted by: Equal Opportunity Cynic on December 14, 2006 at 11:17 AM | PERMALINK

Dr. Drum a champion debater . . . now that is a surprise. In the classroom he was compelling, but in no way commanding. He didn't suck the air out of the room, or beat you over the head with his command of the facts (I guess I don't have a very good opinion of debaters). His teaching style for the survey class was different than for the smaller size classes, but either way he always gave the impression of being an interested, even avid listener. As you know, I thought the world of him and deeply regret his loss.

Posted by: Dixie Myers on December 14, 2006 at 11:31 AM | PERMALINK

Dixie: You betcha. He was part of the Marshall High debate mafia of the 1940s. And Mom was an even better debater (shhh....). But you wouldn't guess it from talking to either one of them.

Posted by: Kevin Drum on December 14, 2006 at 12:24 PM | PERMALINK

Did anyone get a load of those debate topics from the late 40s?

"That labor should be given a direct share in the management of industry."

"That a federal world government should be established."

"That the United States should nationalize the basic nonagricultural industries."

Wow. What an era.

Posted by: Jack on December 14, 2006 at 12:43 PM | PERMALINK

PAGE 8

question being that the United States should nationalize the basic nonagricultural industries

second place (A would mean AFFIRMATIVE) Augustana College

speakers

Dorothy Ann Koch
Charles Lindbergh

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