When all else fails, hang the dictator.

The question is, what is going to transpire after the fact whent he Sunni's go apeshit?

Nothing reflects the pathetic failures of the current crop of putative political leaders of this planet than the execution of one of their own. Kill 'em, hang 'em, screw 'em. Set a great example for all to follow. Lower the morality of all by having the leadership of a sovereign state kill its own ex leader. This is not the evolution that Darwin envisaged. Society improves by selecting against those who would destroy, against those who would excecute their own people. What we have here is evolution in reverse, the passing of a widely viewed opportunity to salvage morality. Is there any hope for this dark and ugly cesspool of a world?

And it only cost a trillion US dollars.. what a bargain! (rolls eyes)

Thanks,

Mike

Josh Marshall: Hanging Saddam is easy. It's a job, for once, that these folks can actually see through to completion.

Not so fast! There have been plenty of botched hangings. Rope broke. Trap door jammed. Wrong number of turns on the noose, etc., etc., etc.

I'll believe that these clowns get it right when I see it.

Wait a minute. They're going to do this IN the Green Zone?
We really are the new Romans.

Ah, Kevin.

That's right, Kevvy, ol' boy. Hanging Saddam is the best thing we could ever do. Breaks with the past. Forces the Shites and Sunnies to look to the future, and give up their past transgressions.

This is the best thing we could do. But of course, I understand you'd be sad about it, since Saddam was your boy. Wasn't he, Kevin? WASN"T HE?!

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It may well be that no one will miss the B of B. But I don't think that killing people is ever the right answer. It's not a civilized solution. Of course, we've shown that we are not a civilized country, so it follows.

When has an assassination been carried out in a more cowardly manner or at greater expense?

The Butcher of Baghdad is being hanged. Without Bush, Saddam would still be living in a palace right now, continuing his totalitarian regime, and readying his sons to follow him in tyranny.

At recently as September, over 60 percent of Iraqis polled still, even after all the crap, believed that getting rid of Saddam was worth it.

Obviously, Bush got at least one thing right.

Um, Egbert, you foolish troll you, if you bothered to READ the byline, you would know that Kevin's on vacation and did not write this post.

When has an assassination been carried out in a more cowardly manner or at greater expense?

When Saddam gassed all of those Kurdish schoolkids.

rdw: Now wouldn't that be cool?

Both cool and consistent.

Apparently RDW's schtick grows tiresome.

I feel sorry for both of them, Saddam and Bush. Inhuman monsters, both, but still pathetic.

Surprisingly, we have not heard the usual suspects telling us how we will turn the corner because of this event.

I guess even that lie has run out of steam.

anybody hear anything about the appeal saddam's lawyers have filed in u.s. court to bar u.s. authorities from handing him over to the iraqis? does it have any chance?

odd posts from josh and steve benen,

neither deals with the issue of capital punishment istelf,
or that there might be a difference between civil cp and
cases of aggression and/or genocide.

i think what the administration did and has done since in iraq is
beyond stupid foreign policy and ir analysis.

but, we did hang goering and a lot of others.

where do we draw the line?

and should we?

there is a lot to think about.

Riverbend says:

Why make things worse by insisting on Saddam's execution now? Who gains if they hang Saddam? Iran, naturally, but who else? There is a real fear that this execution will be the final blow that will shatter Iraq. Some Sunni and Shia tribes have threatened to arm their members against the Americans if Saddam is executed. Iraqis in general are watching closely to see what happens next, and quietly preparing for the worst.

This is because now, Saddam no longer represents himself or his regime. Through the constant insistence of American war propaganda, Saddam is now representative of all Sunni Arabs (never mind most of his government were Shia). The Americans, through their speeches and news articles and Iraqi Puppets, have made it very clear that they consider him to personify Sunni Arab resistance to the occupation. Basically, with this execution, what the Americans are saying is "Look- Sunni Arabs- this is your man, we all know this. We're hanging him- he symbolizes you." And make no mistake about it, this trial and verdict and execution are 100% American. Some of the actors were Iraqi enough, but the production, direction and montage was pure Hollywood (though low-budget, if you ask me).

That is, of course, why Talbani doesn't want to sign his death penalty- not because the mob man suddenly grew a conscience, but because he doesn't want to be the one who does the hanging- he won't be able to travel far away enough if he does that.

I gotta say, I increasingly wonder (besided the Bush clan's personal feud hardon for him) what exactly was so bad about Saddam that we had to invade. Don't get me wrong. He was a dictator and a mass murderer, but there is certainly no shortage of those in the world and particularly in the Middle East. We spent billions of dollars, and hundreds of thousands of lives, to turn a contained secular state that was absolutely no threat to us at all into another Iran -- a radical theocracy intent on destroying America. And as a bonus, at the same time, we turned the whole world against us and destabilized the entire Middle East. Can someone remind me how that is in the interests of the United States again ...?

Carrying out the death penalty on any human being is a time for solemnity and humility. That's what I think, anyway. So, I hope those striking a carnival pose on this comment thread are young men who will learn more as they travel along.

Why make things worse by insisting on Saddam's execution now? Who gains if they hang Saddam? Iran, naturally, but who else? There is a real fear that this execution will be the final blow that will shatter Iraq.

Good. The sooner that shithole goes entirely up in flames, the sooner we can get out.

Great job, George Bush.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

If only his American counterparts were there to join him.

"There are two kinds of people in the world, my friend. Those who have a rope around their neck and those who have the job of cutting."

But of course, I understand you'd be sad about it, since Saddam was your boy. Wasn't he, Kevin? WASN"T HE?!
Posted by: egbert on December 29, 2006 at 8:24 PM | PERMALINK

No, egbert. Saddam was YOUR man. Backed by YOUR man, Reagan, and YOUR man, Rumsfeld. You pathetic twit.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Let's kill all the evil dictators.

Can Bush look a mother of any American soldier killed in Baghdadin in her eye and tell her that this is why her son died?

See a sarcastic visual of George Bush playing a round of �Hangman��here:

www.thoughttheater.com

Dead Men Tell No Tales.

Can Bush look a mother of any American soldier killed in Baghdadin in her eye and tell her that this is why her son died?
Posted by: gregor on December 29, 2006 at 9:16 PM | PERMALINK

Listen, if I had lost MY son in the effort of bringing Hussein and his evil offspring to justice - yeah, I'd be sad at the loss, but proud. A worthy sacrifice for a worthy effort.

But let's not pretend that that's why Saddam is swinging, and Iraq's biggest export is American-flag-draped-coffins. Because it's a stupid, cruel, lie.

"The Americans want him to be hanged respectfully," al-Nueimi said.

Remember that feeling of having stepped into a bad movie on 9/11? A movie bad enough that if you had wasted the money on it you'd be pissed off at having your intelligence insulted like that? That feeling has been with me ever since and hasn't left, and sometimes I'm able to just shrug my shoulders and ignore it or roll up the sleeves and go on about the business of ending it.

And then there are times like this where I have to just sit back and ask if anyone else would like a drink, because I sure need one.

I don't know guys, I'm feeling good tonight.

I think we're finally gonna turn the corner after tonight. We're sending a message to the Middle East: there's no turning back now. The only way to go is democracy and free trade. It's gonna sink in now.

It boggles that people cheering the demise of Saddam belong to the same set as those who defended Augusto Pinochet.

There's a guy we should have hanged, if you're talking about evil.

Wait. . . he defended Latin America from Communism, hence he must be good. . .

Why make things worse by insisting on Saddam's execution now? Who gains if they hang Saddam? Iran, naturally, but who else?

Of course, Riverbend wouldn't have a pro-Sunni bias, now would she?

Hanging Saddam means no more trials--making the man endure day after day of being exposed to his crimes against humanity while he lives, isolated, in a small cell? What's wrong with that?

I'm not sorry to see him go, but I suspect ALL of his crimes have not been given their due diligence in court as of yet.

I'm sorry, but whatever your perspective on the war, 9/11, the Kurdish question. . .

this is sickening.

Let him die, I suppose. He was an evil, evil man. An evil man who governed a small historic country that had strategic importance to other men, some evil, some benign.

Something stinks here, and it's not the human sewage spilling into the Tigris.

Let the right rejoice in their crumbs. They've had so little lately. Unfortunately, the beast is never sated.

I have a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach that presages disaster. It's the same uneasy feeling I had the day my youngest child was hit by a car (she's fine) prior to it happening.

I hope like hell my gut is wrong and that Iraq doesn't finish imploding in grand fashion in a couple of hours, complete with an over-run Green Zone and massive casualties and Iran stepping in to restore order.

In fact I hope I'm certifiable for even letting those thoughts creep in.

Pale Rider: I'm not sorry to see him go, but I suspect ALL of his crimes have not been given their due diligence in court as of yet.

Stay the execution. He'll be needed as a witness at Rumsfeld's trial.

He'll be needed as a witness at Rumsfeld's trial.

And there you have it! Dead men tell no secrets!

Saddam is dead! Our long national nightmare is over.........Wait.......Wait.......Never mind.

Saddam is dead, if you don't already know.

Joe Scarborough just said things have been going so badly for Bush, he (Bush) might just be expecting to get a bounce in the polls with Saddam executed tonight.
Shiite gunfire, almost dawn in Iraq, fire in the streets celebratory: CNN saying there was a video of the execution, and reported Americans were present at the execution. One reporter says they were there for security.

Am I safer now?

I sincerely hope he spirited away all the evidence against Ronnie/Bush I/Rummy etc. for release after his death.

Bounce in the polls?

Scarborough says the POTUS is going to get a bounce in the polls from this?

There's only that 33% block he has locked down--the wingnut block--I doubt that it's going to suddenly expand. I also doubt whether this President will ever see the other side of 45% ever again.

In other news, Cindy Sheehan was arrested outside the Crawford Ranch and is sitting in the county jail.

Yes. Likely you are. This is the equivalent of taking out Hitler in 1939.

No, it's the equivalent of taking out Hitler in 1957, but have a nice day, dumbass.

"In other news, Cindy Sheehan was arrested outside the Crawford Ranch and is sitting in the county jail."

Sitting in the county jail
By a set of curious chances;
Liberated then on bail,
On my own recognizances;
Wafted by a favouring gale
As one sometimes is in trances,
To a height that few can scale,
Save by long and weary dances;
Surely, never had a male
Under such like circumstances
So adventurous a tale,
Which may rank with most romances

this thread is not going to turn into a circle jerk

We have turned the corner in Iraq. THe next 6 months are critical................

30,000 American casualties, 600,000 dead Iraqis and 1 trillion dollars pissed away and we did not even get a lousy T shirt out of it.

Just bad luck and timing for Saddam.Ford would have pardoned him.

I can hear the champagne corks a-poppin' in Crawford Texas way up here in the northeast.
This changes the news cycle, but not the foreign policy debacle this administration created.
Bush is the worst president in US history.

Re Saddam being found guilty and executed, rather than being a unifying event this will exacerbated tensions in the country. OK, while it is true that Saddam reserved most of his venom for the Shia and the Kurds, he also killed **many** Sunnis (including blood and legal relatives...). Surely, given all the people he had killed over the past two decades,it should have been possible to have a trial where he would be held accountable for the deaths of Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds? In which case a guilty verdict could not be cast as Shia triumphalism over the Sunni, but might even have been a unifying event...

I can hear the champagne corks a-poppin' in Crawford Texas

I knew the idiot prince was drinking again.

Global
I hope like hell my gut is wrong and that Iraq doesn't finish imploding in grand fashion in a couple of hours, complete with an over-run Green Zone and massive casualties and Iran stepping in to restore order.

How much more angry can the Sunnis get? I have a hard time believing they been holding back, saving their real anger and attacks for Saddam's death. Their threats are just more hyperbole. The mother of all BS-ers.

How much more angry can the Sunnis get?

I agree Red State Mike. I think the charge from the pro-pullout side that this is going to cause a counterattack by the Sunnis to be overblown.

Al

The deed is done. We went ahead and did it after all.

And please, egbert, you foolish, foolish troll, cheerleading from the safety of your den -- don't insult people's intelligence with your insistence that it was the Iraqi government, and not the Bush administration, that carried out this act. We had full custody of him almost until the moment he first saw the gallows.

The world has now witnessed our government preside over the execution of another head of state. This is absolutely no different than Hungary's puppet communist government executing former President Nagy Imre after he led his country's failed anti-Soviet uprising in October 1956.

Yet another rancid layer has been added to a toxic build-up of bad national karma.

May God have mercy on us.

After all we paid to get this result, dont you think he should be hung in Times Square at the stroke of the new year??

Sunni insurgents are moving toward Al qada, it was said. What a mess we made over there. We obviously made it worse.
Andy Card is on tv saying the execution will bring peace and a bright future. Already the spin has started.

Sunni insurgents are moving toward Al qada, it was said.

Hopefully they are forming tight groupings, for easy targeting.

The point was made on TV earlier this evening (MSNBC, I think) that the Sunnis, by and large, don't care because Hussein favored his own tribe over others and many Sunnis see their fate as having been sealed by how Hussein acted against his enemies--they're the ones sentenced to hell right now.

And he's old news. He's been in custody for three years. That's six Friedmans, for those of you keeping score at home.

Hey Red State Mike. I have nothing to base anything on but a feeling in the pit of my stomach, but I've had it before. (Go read the top post on my site if you want the details. It's a story, complete with my husband showing up on our side of the world to surprise us that very day).

Cool. You site is...?

Here.

ACK..."your" site is?

Anybody checking out CNN? There's a double-chinned, very well-fed Iraqi man speaking impeccable English and wearing a double-breasted brown tweed suit, telling us how oppressed he was and how liberated he feels now. Have we found a new Ahmed Chalabi?

Oh, excuse me -- he's Iraq's Ambassador to the United States.

Look how the Saddam guilty verdict came two or three days before the American mid-term elections. That had to be contrived...there was collusion, not coincidence. Watergate by any other name...

Michael 7843853 G-O in 08!: "After all we paid to get this result, dont you think he should be hung in Times Square at the stroke of the new year??"

Too late, dude. But maybe we could strap his corpse to the front of the dropping ball.

Saddam's lawyer is saying the whole process is illegal and unjust, observers have agreed. Body isn't being turned over and is being buried in an unmarked grave. Hatred and vengence. Unfair trial information was submitted to rights group; no time for defense to prepare, no access to evidence, not able to see papers from the trial, not able to see the sites where deaths allegedly occurred. He argued for due process and the judge said it was irrelevant in his court room. Judge had said Saddam should be executed without a trial

Egbert, this part is even more to the point:

Defer, defer,
To the Lord High Executioner!
Defer, defer,
To the noble Lord,
To the noble Lord High Executioner!
Bow down, bow down,
To the Lord High Executioner!
Defer, defer,
To the noble, noble Lord,
To the High Executioner!

CRAWFORD, Texas (AP) -- President Bush and first lady Laura Bush were moved to an armored vehicle on their ranch Friday when a tornado warning was issued in Central Texas, the White House said.

The vehicle was driven to a tornado shelter on the ranch, and the president, first lady and their two Scottish terriers sat inside until the weather cleared, deputy White House press secretary Scott Stanzel said. They were never moved into the shelter, he said.

The president was "in the vehicle for about 10 minutes and then he went back to the house," Stanzel said, adding that other members of the staff at the ranch were sheltered as well.

I know there are pet lovers out there, but come on. Terriers? Huddled in an "armored vehicle" during bad weather in Texas?

There's your damned metaphor for how fucked up the world is right there...

angryspittle: "I sincerely hope he spirited away all the evidence against Ronnie/Bush I/Rummy etc. for release after his death."

Rumor has it that Bob Woodward is in possession of an exclusive embargoed interview that he conducted with Saddam while simultaneously taking down CIA Director Bill Casey's deathbed confessions.

consider wisely
Saddam's lawyer is saying the whole process is illegal and unjust, observers have agreed.

There are sooooooooo many other people who could use your sympathy. I have an extremely hard time finding a better open and shut case than Saddam. Are you genuinely arguing that he was innocent of his crimes?

Both Americans and Iraqis were safer with Saddam in power.

It is a grevious sin to have invaded Iraq and turned it into a much worse hell than it was.

Bush has made mistakes and done some wrong things in Iraq. However, Saddam's overthrow, his capture, his trial, and his execution by the Iraqi government were good things.

It's appropriate for you folks to criticize Bush for the bad things he has done. However, Steve Benen sounds petty and foolish trying to fault the US for the use of a red card. One should look at the big picture. A horrrendous despot is geting his just desserts from the people he misruled, after a more-or-less fair trial.

Just as we are embarassed at wrongs done by our country and our soldiers, we Americans should take pride when they do something good, such as Saddam's execution.

The start of the war in 2003 made me quite angry and hostile to the actions of my nation/state. This act today is just another of many horrible mistakes that will inflame people we claim to help with revenge and demonstrates our base means for dealing with troubling life itself to the entire world.

Good one, Pale Rider

Red State Mike :
No, I am just reporting what is being said on CNN in case folks here don't have cable

we Americans should take pride when they do something good, such as Saddam's execution.

"We" Americans had nothing to do with it; the Iraqi government executed Saddam Hussein.

"We" have lost almost 3,000 troops and over 20,000 wounded so that the Iraqi government could string up a paper tiger who was guilty of grievous crimes, to be certain, but who was not a credible threat and was not the number one threat to this country.

Meanwhile, there's a flurry of activity to provide security in DC and New York, for the Ford services and for New Years. A LOT of people are going to be on edge for the next few days. The world is a better place without Saddam Hussein but America is NOT any safer.

Sorry, wingnuts, but you can't really argue with that fact.

I think we could all be happy if Saddam had been executed by Iraqis who had overthrown him without a US invasion and occupation. It is the US historical involvement with Saddam, its invasion/occupation, and its illegitimate puppet government that makes the execution so distasteful. If the US is going to be the policeman of the world, it needs to send these dictators to the world court.

Are you genuinely arguing that he was innocent of his crimes?

That's liberal thinking for you, Red State Mike. Since Saddam's guilty, what's the need for a long drawn out trial that would only appease the terrorists? It's much better to spend that money on more useful things like using it to buy weapons for the military to kill the terrorists.

Al

CWA: I appreciate the CNN updates. I cancelled my cable a few months ago when I realized that the only time I turned on the TV was to play a DVD.

That's liberal thinking for you, Red State Mike. Since Saddam's guilty, what's the need for a long drawn out trial that would only appease the terrorists?

You are going to sprain something leaping to conclusions.

She is reiterating what is on CNN, not expressing that opinion.

Pale Rider: "We" Americans had nothing to do with it; the Iraqi government executed Saddam Hussein.

That depends on how you look at it. Our overthrow and capture of Saddam and our creation of a democratically elected government seem to be to have been key steps.

Brojo: I think we could all be happy if Saddam had been executed by Iraqis who had overthrown him without a US invasion and occupation. It is the US historical involvement with Saddam, its invasion/occupation, and its illegitimate puppet government that makes the execution so distasteful. If the US is going to be the policeman of the world, it needs to send these dictators to the world court.

Brojo, the trouble is, what you want isn't realistic. Saddam would never have been overthrown without a US invasion. There isn't a reliable world court. IMHO one shouldn't minimize Saddam's overthrow and trial by comparing the method used to some unrealistic, hypothetical approach.

Oh, and Saddam was executed just before 9pm, Central--

And which leader of the free world is usually in bed by 9 pm?

Coincidence? I don't know. But somewhere, a blogger is calculating these very facts in order to bring you yet another breathless post about how it's all connected to...kyoto...old europe...the gold standard...the treachery of France...

That depends on how you look at it. Our overthrow and capture of Saddam and our creation of a democratically elected government seem to be to have been key steps.

That was worth 3,000 dead and 20,000 wounded???

And a month ago there was serious talk of a coup to remove al-Maliki and put in a strongman...

Hey, spinmeisters: I am not saying Saddam was innocent of anything. I rapidly typed to record what Saddam's lawyer said when he was being interviewed on CNN,and what I typed was verbatim. That is what is in my post. There was also an American who had trained Iraqi trial judges--I had seen him on cspan one time; he was disputing what the lawyer had said, then the lawyer said that guy was just someone profiting from the war machine. Then, typical to CNN, they switched to something else.

Pale Rider, CNN reports that Bush was actually asleep when Saddam was executed.

Pale Rider, CNN reports that Bush was actually asleep when Saddam was executed.

I guess if I spent all day hiding from the weather in an armored vehicle with my wife and two terriers, I'd hit the hay a little early as well.

CWA: I got your back, Sweetie.

A-13: Asleep before 9:00, or passed out?

I wonder if we made piss-tests mandatory for the presidency if he would go aWol again?

Thanks, Global Citizen. You are a great and intuitive person. Thanks for looking out for me, too.

And if he was asleep, with no chemical assistance, in my mind it confirms his pathologies.

Oh, I dunno about great opr intuitive. I'll settle for pugnacious.:)

Now, I lived in Texas for three years. I lived in barracks buildings and I lived in apartments while there, courtesy of the US army.

If you can't get excited about a tornado in Texas enough to go watch, there's something timid in your nature that can only be fixed by learning to embrace the possibility that flying debris could hit you. The question is, are you excited enough about life to chase a tornado, duck whatever is flying at you, and do all of this without spilling your Heineken?

However, Saddam's overthrow, his capture, his trial, and his execution by the Iraqi government were good things.

Then why aren't you celebrating in on the streets of Baghdad wearing your shirt that says:

"I Helped Hang Saddam and All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt"?

You're so confident that what we've done is the best thing for the Iraqis, a t-shirt like that -- may as well be bulletproof armor. Right?

Or isn't it really the case that are just as likely to have a Shia shopkeeper who lost his wife to a car bomb and blames Americans walk up to you and blow your head off as you are a Sunni insurgent?

Less idiotic posting, more firsthand reporting please.

Pale Rider: That was worth 3,000 dead and 20,000 wounded???

I don't know. The value of our efforts depends on what will happen in Iraq and with radical Islam, which is not known yet. The value also depends on what would have happened absent our effort, which will never be known.

Heineken?!?!?

I woulda killed for a Heineken when we were in Wichita (where the fuck are the) Falls. Freakin' Lone Star (spit).

That was worth 3,000 dead and 20,000 wounded???

ex-liberal: I don't know.

Well, you can just fuck off and die, asshole. You do not know the true meaning of the value of human life and you are not an American, period.

GC: I hope like hell my gut is wrong...

angryspittle: Am I safer now?

Donald from Hawaii: Yet another rancid layer has been added to a toxic build-up of bad national karma.

PR: There's your damned metaphor for how fucked up the world is right there...

Brojo: I think we could all be happy if Saddam had been executed by Iraqis who had overthrown him without a US invasion and occupation.

I wonder why some of us don’t feel so good and proud about this. Certainly is not sympathy for Saddam. Must have something to do with due process and the American way.

Oh - and real Texans go to the roof to watch tornados, they don't huddle in armored SUV's.

Of course, I also had a neighbor in Tejas who used to sit on his porch and shoot tarantulas with a .22 - while swilling Lone Star.

This just popped into my head, so I offer it for for levity:

The man can't speak, he confuses noun with predicate.

But cowboy boots will do that to someone from Connecticut.

Must have something to do with due process and the American way.

I don't know.

From now on, when confronted with the obvious, that's my answer.

Hundreds of thousands of people dead, my fellow Americans, dead, the world fucked up...

was it worth it???

I don't know.

Unbelieveable.

Just where are we as a people right now? Where are the American people and where is this country headed, for Christsakes? Was it worth it to go to war and have so many lose their lives, so many more permanently damaged, so many more beyond that suffering and abandoned and unable to get help to deal with their PTSD?

I don't know.

GC: Asleep before 9:00, or passed out?

Ambien with shots of Southern Comfort could do either one.

CWA, Did you see Iraq's Ambassador to the U.S., al-Istrabadi, on CNN, the one Donald from Hawaii mentioned? I also thought of Chalabi. Anderson Cooper asked him how Saddam had managed to stay in power for so long, that Hitler's reign of terror lasted only 12 years. Al-Istrabadi responded saying that it was fear and referenced the book, The Republic of Fear. Noticeable absent was any mention of how the Reagan-Bush Admin aided and abetted Saddam.

I'm all for levity, but when your garden variety wingnut says:

I don't know

When asked a pretty basic question as to whether going to war over nothing and having 3,000 killed and 20,000 wounded was worth it and all the smarmy, mealy-mouthed, mentally deficient and intellectually dishonest little shit can come up with is

I don't know

levity kinda goes out the window for me.

Fuckin' A, people. Something's wrong with this country.

See you some other night...

You don't know?!?!?!?!

Get the fuck

Who the fuck are you? Certainly no one with any values I share. You see, I have sent loved ones off to serve. I have seen traumas up close and washed their blood off my hands and out of my clothing. I have literally picked pieces of brain out of my shoelaces. I know what the fuck is happening and it tears my fucking heart out.

Sorry - speed typing violation. I requested that you get the fuck off my planet.

Few will mourn Saddam Hussein, none on this board. But the ugliness of the right wing assholes is nothing short of stunning. For example:

Hopefully they are forming tight groupings, for easy targeting.

What a thuggish thing to say. It sounds like the words of a coward who would sit on his ass and murder people from a mile or more away. How many dead Iraqis will it take to slake your bloodlust? How many people have to die? (edited)

Those who intentionally kill else have a responsibility to ensure that it is done because there is no other choice. Those who do not are sociopaths unfit to walk among the decent people of society. Killing just because someone with prettier jewelry tells you it is a good idea is monstrous, hoping for tight groupings of human beings so they can be more efficiently slaughtered is unspeakable.

I don't know.

The neocon contingency reminds me of a description Billmon wrote about Condi Rice also applicable in this instance... "detached to the point of catatonia."

History, we don’t know. We’ll all be dead. --George W. Bush

RSM, you are certainly entitled to hold hostile opinions, this is after all America, for a few more minutes anyway.

But very few who serve are consumed with an overwhelming desire to spill blood. You are wrong on that count.

Pale Rider: "'We' Americans had nothing to do with it; the Iraqi government executed Saddam Hussein."

Please, let ex-liberal and the wingnuts revel in their moment.

It's already been admitted that the Americans held Saddam in custody throughout the entire time, not the Iraqis, and also walked him to the gallows.

It was Bush administration officials who first leaked word today that he was to be executed.

The "Iraqi government" to which you refer has no controlling authority to speak of outside the "Green Zone" in downtown Baghdad, and even that's questionable because that "government" depends upon American armed forces for its protection from its own people.

Have you been watching Anderson Cooper on CNN, talking to that fat-assed, pompous, "oppressed" elitist with the double-breasted brown tweed suit? That's the Iraqi ambassador, and THAT'S the public face of your "Iraqi government".

Three years from now, that "Iraqi government" will no longer exist, and that guy will be exiled to a life of luxury in this country and vacationing in St. Tropez, all on the taxpayer's dime. You can hold me to that prediction.

So let the wingnuts wave the bloody shirt that is Iraq. 90% of the people in this world hold no illusion as to who is ultimately responsible for what occurred at 6:00am Baghdad time this morning. Anyone in this country who thinks otherwise is only fooling themselves.

I'm afraid that history will prove a very harsh judge of what we've perpetrated in Iraq. I just hope the damage to our country in world opinion does not prove terminal.

The Left's abject misery and anger at the execution of Saddam may be a sign of just how far the Left has decayed since they used to claim to be the movement of liberation and freedom in the world.

I'm not upset that the B of B is dead. I am upset that my country is threatened by one small man's petty grievances and the fact that the entire middle east is destabilized and an impending negative economic impact of a regional conflagration is a very real possibility.

But you lot go ahead and accuse of of mourning for Hussein, simply because we are thoughtful enough to peel another layer off the onion.

Maybe this post from Riverbend will provide some perspective to this discussion.

Check this link:
http://electroniciraq.net/news/2769.shtml

Excerpt below:

End of another year...
Riverbend, Baghdad Burning, 29 December 2006

End of Another Year...

You know your country is in trouble when:

1. The UN has to open a special branch just to keep track of the chaos and bloodshed, UNAMI.

2. Abovementioned branch cannot be run from your country.

3. The politicians who worked to put your country in this sorry state can no longer be found inside of, or anywhere near, its borders.

4. The only thing the US and Iran can agree about is the deteriorating state of your nation.

5. An 8-year war and 13-year blockade are looking like the country's 'Golden Years'.

6. Your country is purportedly 'selling' 2 million barrels of oil a day, but you are standing in line for 4 hours for black market gasoline for the generator.

7. For every 5 hours of no electricity, you get one hour of public electricity and then the government announces it's going to cut back on providing that hour.

8. Politicians who supported the war spend tv time debating whether it is 'sectarian bloodshed' or 'civil war'.

9. People consider themselves lucky if they can actually identify the corpse of the relative that's been missing for two weeks.

A day in the life of the average Iraqi has been reduced to identifying corpses, avoiding car bombs and attempting to keep track of which family members have been detained, which ones have been exiled and which ones have been abducted.

If you read my comments as a condemnation of all who serve, I haven't been clear. I'm talking about specifically those whose desire bloodshed at every opportunity. Those who believe that there haven't been enough Iraqis murdered; those who think that hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis is a good start; those who think there is no difference between National Security and following orders; but more importantly, those who support every taking of life no matter how much evidence piles up against their pet adventure.

Being a soldier in defense of your country is a noble endeavor. When your country asks that you do wrong, though, it is incumbent on you to act first as a human being. When you fail to, you dishonor your service. Iraq has never been a national security issue. It wasn�t when George Herbert Walker Bush lied about Saddam Hussein�s actions and ambitions; it wasn�t when William Jefferson Clinton continued the low-grade warfare on the Iraqi people, and it certainly wasn�t when George Walker Bush decided that it would be a good domestic political issue for him if he were to start murdering the Iraqi people.

But there were those who blindly supported every action. There were those who took part and never once thought about the human beings being slaughtered with little cause.

It is to them I speak. Not the entirety of the military.

...the entire middle east is destabilized and an impending negative economic impact of a regional conflagration is a very real possibility.

A Middle East with Saddam ruling Iraq, Ahmadinejad in Iran, and Assad in Syria, would hardly have been "stable." The Iran/Iraq war, the wars in Lebanon, and the invasion of Kuwait were part of what you apparently consider "stability."

I love how Kathryn "I'm not reflexively Republican because I oppose the Death Penalty" Lopez is so happy about this execution.

Anyway, back to real news.

Fair enough RSM.

For what it's worth, my father was part of the F-14 mission, and I remember seeing the episode of M*A*S*H in which the pilot ejected and Hawkeye took him into post-op to show him his handiwork.

That might have beent he first time a TV show hit me in the gut. It certainly inspired many conversations with my father, and those conversations helped me stake out my own positions.

And we won't even get into the complexities that accompanied the SAC mission.

The area was closer to stability five years ago than it is now.

In the Iran/Iraq war, rather than pick a side, the Reagan administration just armed 'em both.

Saddam was a thug but he was contained, and more people have died in the 3 1/2 years of this war than he managed to kill in 23 years.

Ahmedinejad was a direct thumb in the eye of GWB after the "Axis of Evil" crack. (btw he took his own thumpin' in elections last month).

There was plenty of tension and no shortage of violence. But c'mon - it's a hell of a lot worse now.

FYI, today is the day that most Muslims (Shiites do it on Sunday) celebrate God's benevolence towards the Prophet Abraham by sacrificing a sheep.

Pretty fucking funny. More here.

It bears repeating that every single thing Saddam was charged with, was back when the US was supporting him, and much of it was done with materials that the US provided.

What? We elected a president that doesn't chase tornados? How lame.

Blessed Eid, Eno.

The problem I see, Global Citizen, is that our military has long since stopped being about National Defense or even national defense. Some may argue about how we got into WWII, or about some of the other details and I may agree with some or none of it, but the fact remains that Japan committed an act of war on our troops and materiel and Germany declared war a few days later. I have no truck with those who won't fight when attacked.

But since that time there have been any number of abuses of our military personnel, none of them about defending the United States. The founding fathers were opposed to a standing army and foreign entanglements with good reason. That said, I'm not an isolationist. We have an obligation to do what is right. We do not have the right to decide what that is for the rest of the world.

Our nation has many problems that would be more easily solved if we did not waste our treasure on the world's most expensive military, and the standing military has proven to be what could be called an attractive nuisance - it's there, let's use it - and now we see what happens when someone as bloodthirsty and unthinking as those I have called out is in charge of that military.

Bush or no Bush, screwed up adventure or not, poor strategy and planning aside, in spite of what cost in lives and fortune, and whether it turns out to be worth it (probably not) the message remains:

"If you are contemplating running your country, co-opting its wealth for yourself, directing mass murders, cleaning up with a dose of genocide, mutilating those who disagree with you, invading neighboring state(s), and being a despicable renegade in just about every way imaginable ... then, we cannot predict what might happen to you but it is likely to be like a bad nightmare.

Because the world is full of leaders and followers who do crazy stuff, even illegal stuff, and there are people building up an execution chamber's worth of anger and hate toward you, and there are some you think are loyal but they will cut you up if they have a chance ....

We don't know that it will happen, and if it does we don't know how or when or by what means, fair or unfair by whatever legal standards apply...

But know this: By acting as you do, that imperial uniform you wear has an ever enlarging target on it. It CAN happen to you like it did to Saddam, only it might be a gas chamber, or an assassination, or a firing squad, or a guillotine. Take that into consideration, as you plan your future and decide whether to apply for membership in the Brutalitarian Despot Hall of Fame. There is some evidence, more as of December 2006, that it can end very badly."

I think that's a worthwhile message to send. It doesn't mean I think it had to be, or should have been "us", or that we got there in a smart or honorable way, but that "message" is one outcome I cannot feel bad about.

Thanks GC. It's certainly been eventful. I trust you had a good Hanukkah?

My husband went in in 1976, after Viet Nam. When he was deciding whether or not to go in, he and his dad had a chat, which ended up being a discourse on the Honor Code.

Between 1973 and 1976, more officers left service than at any time since the Civil War when the US Army split into two armies.

After that conversation, he enlisted, then bootstrapped an engineering degree and a commission. We spent a lot of nights talking about the future while the Supreme Court deliberated Bush v Gore. He was due to exchange his brass clusters for silver ones in les than a year (promotion was approved), but on principle he resigned his commission rather than serve this president.

RSM @ 2:07 am ....
Very well stated. Thanks.

"If you are contemplating running your country, co-opting its wealth for yourself, directing mass murders, cleaning up with a dose of genocide, mutilating those who disagree with you, invading neighboring state(s), and being a despicable renegade in just about every way imaginable ... then, we cannot predict what might happen to you but it is likely to be like a bad nightmare.

The murder of Saddam Hussein sends no such message. The show trial smacks more of the USSR than the USA, and sends the message that the United States is a rogue nation willing to invade without cause and kill your people and your leaders.

George W. Bush has killed far more than 150 innocent Iraqis without even the excuse of one of them trying to assassinate him, but I don't see you calling for him to be hanged.

Yes I did Eno, thank you. Did you know that when a two year old say Baruch ata Adonai (Blessed are you Adonai) that it sounds just like Barak Obama, Attaboy?

When we moved to Turkey it was less than two weeks before the Eid celebration, and our neighbors introduced themselves by bringing us a gift of the halal meat they had just saccrificed. The next year, we were invited to be present. I felt very honored to be included.

IP verified sock-puppets have been deleted

GC: He was due to exchange his brass clusters for silver ones in less than a year (promotion was approved), but on principle he resigned his commission rather than serve this president.

That's quite a testament to the officer's judgment. That, and making you an honest woman.

I married well.

I am not commenting on what Bush deserves. He deserved to be removed from power via election, and nearly was, and his whole "act" is in the process of being neutered. That's what happens in our country. It couldn't in Saddam's.

Whatever else happens to Bush in due course, from whatever quarter, it will be something he invited by actions. No matter whether he did things in good faith (in the name of HIS faith, perhaps, as chilling as that is) or not. I am commenting HERE about the execution of Hussein serving to reinforce the notion that there are adverse consequences that follow from actions like his.

My earlier post started by separating this from Bush and his bungling minions, who have miscalculatd and screwed up from BEFORE the beginning. It is Saddam's execution I am commenting on, period, and saying I don't oppose IT like I oppose capital punishment in general (for reasons I won't bore you with, but that I do not feel apply in this case).

Saddam could have been killed by friendly fire for all I care, or committed suicide Hitler-style, or died when a grenade slipped out of someone's hand and rolled into his little pit in the ground. What matters to me is that he got his in the end, one way or another. Because he deserved it. And not just because of 148 deaths that were the "symbolic" (or legally the cleanest, or whatever) charge. We all know that he was executed for more than that, just as Nazi leaders were.

Good night everyone. It has started to rain, so maybe this insomniac will get some sound sleep tonight.

George W. Bush has killed far more than 150 innocent Iraqis without even the excuse of one of them trying to assassinate him, but I don't see you calling for him to be hanged.
Posted by: RSM on December 30, 2006 at 2:16 AM | PERMALINK

Aw hell, I'll say it.

He deserved hangin' from deserting his TANG unit.

Not sure WHAT he deserves now.

Hopefully, his maker has something in store for him after he dies of some medical problem just before he goes to trial.

(like Pol Pot, Casey, Ken Lay, Pinochet, etc. ad infinutum, ad nauseum.)

.... Saddam would never have been overthrown without a US invasion. ...
Posted by: ex-liberal on December 30, 2006 at 12:01 AM | PERMALINK

Yeah, especially after Bush 41 encouraged the Shia to revolt - and then sat back and watched while Saddam's helicopter gunships blew them into quivering bloody bits of hamburger.

You see - had Bush 41 backed them up, he would have pissed off close Bush family friends; the Sauds. And we can't have THAT now, can we?

So instead - we pay a trillion dollars and 3000 American lives (and 600k innocent Iraqi civilian lives) - to get the Sauds pissed off at us to the point where they're threatening to cut off our oil.

We've known since 1973 that the Sauds have us by the balls. And we've done NOTHING to get their hands out of our pants?

I'm just glad we finally got rid of the guy who was responsible for 9/11 and had stockpiles of WMDs.

Don't you question the rush?

Just what was needed to calm passions and help bring Sunnis and Shiites closer together so democracy can take hold in Iraq and we can declare victory.

hi all

A great day indeed.

Yours
Adolf

I am commenting HERE about the execution of Hussein serving to reinforce the notion that there are adverse consequences that follow from actions like his.

The action of Saddam that led to this was not being a dictator; it was being a dictator that wasn't good buddies with the US anymore and was also an easy target.

Saudi Arabia is likewise a dictatorship. Ditto North Korea. Both are safe; one is good buddies with the US, and the other has nukes. The US can't touch either and they know it.

In fact, the invasion of Iraq has sent exactly the wrong message to dictators; it shows that the one way of saving yourself from the US is to get working nukes as quick as possible.

Terry Ott, we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think the message you suggested is in any way what the rest of the world sees.

Slightly Peeved:
In fact, the invasion of Iraq has sent exactly the wrong message to dictators; it shows that the one way of saving yourself from the US is to get working nukes as quick as possible.

Indeed. Iraq was a target because they did not have WMDs. The decade of sanctions and unsanctioned raids on their sovereign soil ensured that they were helpless before the mighty US war machine.

And why didn't we just send in a special forces strike years ago?

Well, Saddam Hussein is dead.

Bush's culture of death continues unabated. As governor of Texas, Bush presided over more executions than any governor since the Civil War, publicly snickering about some people going to their death, like Karla Faye Tucker. Of course, Bush will continue to claim he is a Christian, despite the fact that Jesus was the victim of the death penalty wrongly administered by the occupying Roman empire. In the execution of Saddam Hussein, Bush played the role of Lucius Pontius Pilate, procurator of Iraq.

Only a few people (Wayne Madsen) have blogged about the fact that the rush to execute Saddam Hussein for the crimes he undoubtedly ordered against the people of Dujail, spares the Bush family the public humiliation of another trial of Hussein over the gassing of the Kurds in Halabja in 1986. Since Bush Sr. provided Saddam with the precursor chemicals to create the poison gas and the means to deliver it, he was an accessory before the fact to mass murder. Only a tiny proportion of the American people will ever know or acknowledge that.

Even though Saddam was clearly a monstrous dictator, to take his life and to brutally force our way of life on Iraqis makes us no better than him, in Gods eyes. This is a sad day for humanity. I will pray for Saddam's immortal soul, because my Bible says that we should love those who would do us harm.

I woulda killed for a Heineken when we were in Wichita (where the fuck are the) Falls. Freakin' Lone Star (spit).
Posted by: Global Citizen

Geez. You guys could have had a Shiner Bock.

Here’s the real video of Saddam Hussein being hung …
http://husseinexecuted.info/

Too many are gloating over Saddam's death. He was an evil man - like Pol Pot, Stalin, Adolf H, Mao, Idi Amin, Benito Mussolini, Augusto Pinochet, Ceasescu, Eichmann and many others of that ilk. Some of them were executed or lynched; some lived to old age in comfort and prosperity. Presumably, those of you who believe in a vengeful God's justice must surely believe these men (all men, interestingly. No women.) are now roasting in hell. So what is the point of sending the likes of Saddam a few years early to eternal suffering? In case he repents and merits God's mercy? So you would confound God's plans? And those of you who have no belief in any heareafter - is not a quick death, five minutes choking at the end of a rope, an easier and less painfall punishment for his crimes than rotting for years in a stinking jail cut off from the pleasures of human intercourse?

State execution is a barbarism, however evil the victim of its savagery. "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore, never send to ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee"

Aw hell, I'll say it.
He deserved hangin' from deserting his TANG unit.
Not sure WHAT he deserves now.

He deserves to spend the rest of his days on the streets of Baghdad, along with the rest of his admin. Do you think the people will greet him with flowers and chocolate on a daily basis, like the liberator her fancies himself to be?

Iraq continues to be subjected to the whims of a brutal man--it's George W Bush. Without an exit strategy, we'll be seeing an entire puppet government installed as more of our soldiers die and yet more Iraqi citizens perish for his "democracy" experiment.
Let's not forget that "Bush was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999...it was on his mind, and he claimed that one of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander in chief...my father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait, and he wasted it."
"If I have a chance to invade...if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it..." This was BEFORE Bush was president. Bush said this, and more, to
the journalist that wrote the authorized biogaphy of Bush's grandfather--The Houston Chronicle's Mickey Herskowitz. Evidently there were tons of notes/ audios from his many sessions with Bush the younger, and Bushco staffers went to the journalist's home, took notes and tapes, and "pulled the project."--Bush had said too much.

This was all in an excellent article 6/20/05 by Russ Baker-- http:www.tompaine.com/print/why_george_wnet_to_war.php

global citizen,

Here's some good news to turn that frown upside down. From the 12/30 Daily Local:

Area Watershed is receiving over $400,000 in restoration funds.

Just one more example of how well America works. So few people appreciate the massive efforts underway every day all over the country to improve our eco-system. Liberals curse our great wealth clueless as to how much good it does.

I also learned yesterday my small township has over $600K in an open space fund waiting for investment. The fact it's waiting is a good sign. Much of the county is already open space so there's not much left to purchase. It will most likely be used to buy the development rights to one of the large farms.

Sadam Hussein, Come on down!!

Sincerely,

Osama Bin Laden, Zarqawi, Arafat, Muhammed, and of course, Satan

Only a tiny proportion of the American people will ever know or acknowledge that.

That's not true. All of the Blame America 1st crowd is right with you. There are only two rules in your world.

1. All evil in the world is th fault of the USA.

2. The only exception to rule 1 is when it's the fault of the jews.

Only a liberal would look at Arabs butchering other Arabs and blame it on everyone else but the Arabs.

Time to get over yourselves and put away the kleenex. Saddam was a putz. He's gone. No one cares. He'll be a small footnote in history as just another Middle Eastern butcher. They're a dime a dozen. Think of the Kurds. Now they have a homeland anf they're booming.

Oh, and Sadam--don't forget about me.

Sincerely,

Mr. Mephistopheles

RSM:

Sunni insurgents are moving toward Al qada, it was said.

Hopefully they are forming tight groupings, for easy targeting.

What a thuggish thing to say.

Why not hope that they form tight-knit clusters of evil? They're coming to kill innocent Shia

wow, what a shock, you libs even complain and moan about Saddam's execution.

Do you ever try to think outside the "hateBush" mindset or are you guys total drones?

I wrote

Sunni insurgents are moving toward Al qada, it was said.

Hopefully they are forming tight groupings, for easy targeting.

RSM
What a thuggish thing to say.

Why not hope that they form tight-knit clusters of evil? They're coming to kill innocent Shia, cut off their heads, drill holes in their skulls, burn them with soldering irons, all as retribution for the death of Saddam. I hope they wear hats with little target emblems on their heads. You bet.

The US can't touch either and they know it.

The US could wipe out NK in a heartbeat and render it a wasteland for 100,000 years and they know it.

We could have invaded them at anytime over the last 50 years and they know it. Why would anyone want NK? It's a wreck. It's the classic socialist experiment like Cuba where the leaders live like kings and everyone else lives a miserable existance.

Have you ever seen a picture of the Korean Penisula at night? There's not a single light on. It's the darkest place in the civilized world. If you can call it civilized. The South Koreans and Chinese are terrified NK will collapse because it'll set off a humanitarian crises neither can handle.

Rather odd they're investing everything in military technology while experiencing massive starvation don't you think? I take it the starvation is America's fault as well.

Not too worry. It's not all bad news. These is something quite positive that IS America's fault. That would be the revivial of Japans economy and their national spirit. They will be revoke chapter 9 of their constitution limiting military spending and join the USA as the worlds 2nd greatest military power. You are certainly aware Japan has already spent over $1B in joint development of the Star Wars system and has completed several successful tests of ship based systems on Japanese cruisers.

Seems the Japanese are not much interested in how America caused the poor NKs to starve their people but are very interested in destroying them if they send more missles Japans way or kidnap more Japanese citizens.

I am sure you are also aware the worlds most sophisticated radar array was recently completed in Northern Japan. They are aggressively building the 1st and best Star Wars missle defense system. Also participating in the R&D effort is India, Israel and Australia for obvious reasons. Israel has just as much as stake and is one of the R&D heavyweights. India is there to develop scientists. Australia has been our strongest ally for over 100 years (did you know despite being 2/3's the size of Canada they spend 75% more on defense?) and with it's booming economy will be strong for another 100 years.

One of the cool things about politics is learning that so often things are not what they seem. On the one hand I am shocked the MSM has missed so many of GWBs strategic moves and what they mean. As if they just don't want to do any positive reporting. On the other hand this is probably why the moves have been so successful. There's zero opposition because so few people understand the big picture.

For example, in almost all cases if you tell a liberal Japan is becoming more assertive and nationalistic and just elected a PM who made revising the constitution so Japan could re-emerge as a great military power a referendum in his election, and won by a wide margin, these liberals would be horrified. They'd only see Pearl Harbor and Guadalcanaland and think it insane. As if Japan hasn't changed in 60 years.

It would probably make our now very close relationship impossible. They are not only clueless about the remilitarization they have no idea Japan is now as committed to Star Wars as the USA and that we're sharing all technology with Israel and India as well.

Because GWB is operating under what is effectively a press embargo he's getting tons more done than would be possible if there were coverage to generate political opposition.

Our alignment with Japan, India, Australia and Israel is far more profitable and critical to our future than NATO could ever hope to be. let's face it. Japan is far more of a technological powerhouse than France could ever hope to be and nuturung the Indian scientific community will ensure the big three Democracies are dominant.

GWB has recognized the world as it is, with crazies in NK and all over the Muslim world and refashioned USA foreign policy to reflect this reality. Japan and the USA face the same threats from NK, China and Russia. India faces the same threats from radical Islam. They are large, strong, mature democracies.

It was either Churchill or Kissinger who made famous the line, "Nations have permanent interests, not permanent friends".

Clearly Western Europe have become more of a competitor than ally and we've been able to document significant recent treachery. Our future is not with Western Europe. GWB has dramatically reshaped the USA's foreign policy in an amazingly short period with the press playing facilitator by not reporting it.

Think about it. The worlds most sophisticated seabased star war systems are now active on Japanese ships. It's not even classified and yet no one knows it. It boggles the mind.

This is the best we can do. Hang Saddam Hussein because there's nothing else this president can get right."

Sorry Benen, Josh is wrong too, the hanging of Saddam was hardly something Bush got RIGHT either.

Saddam's only chance for a fair trial THAT would NOT leave Iraq even more disposed to civil war and strife would have been a trial at the Hague even though Saddam would not have been hung, at least he would not have become a martyr to many Iraqis. Saddam may have the title of of being the butch of Baghdad but the death rates in Baghdad today are actually much worse. Iraqis DID have some form of government before Bush's utter and complete anarchy.

So now is Josh Marshall saying that Bush got the hanging right even as the hanging causes more discord in Iraq? I mean how the hell do you get more anarchy right?

Bush didn't get it right.

Hell, Bush didn't even come close, there was no way for Saddam to have a fair trial in Iraq, particular since Bush saw no reason to protect the legal team representing Saddam, as some lawyers were assassinated, a judge was kidnapped, the whole sordid affair was nothing but a big talked-up, played-up bunch of BS about democracy while having none of the usual fundamental applications a rudimentary Nuremberg.

AND NOW Bush wants this "LAST BIG PUSH" to clean up the civil war he's so vigorously creating.

Isn't it fair to say that Bush is some kind of stupid, because now Bush is saying: Execution Will Not Halt Violence.

Duh! You think so Bush, he's such a regular f*uking Einstein. Jeebus, can we impeach Bush yet?

Hanging was a just fate for Saddam. Unfortunately, (for those of us who'd like more answers) when he died all that he knew died with him. Among his enablers during his reign of terror was the US. We provided the weapons and looked the other way when he used them on his own people and the Iranians. Now, he's dead and we'll never know exactly how much our help meant to him.

THAT would NOT leave Iraq even more disposed to civil war and strife would have been a trial at the Hague

That makes lot of sense. Those twits had Milosovitch for 8 years and still didn't have a trial. He died waiting for it. There is absoluterly nothing fair about the circus at the Hague.

Why not hope that they form tight-knit clusters of evil? They're coming to kill innocent Shia, cut off their heads, drill holes in their skulls, burn them with soldering irons, all as retribution for the death of Saddam. I hope they wear hats with little target emblems on their heads. You bet.

Because the human thing to do is to look for a way to stop them without ripping them limb from limb. You would murder them for crimes they haven't even committed - thought crimes are all it takes for you. How many of your victims were actually guilty of anything? How many more people have you killed than anyone in your body count?

You are the mirror image of those people; the only difference is that your bloodthirsty thuggery has you sitting in a coward's chair far away from your victims. At least they have the courage to personally slaughter theirs. Sure, that courage comes from not having access to multi-million dollar killing machines, but then you wouldn't have it so easy when you murder them.

Saddam Hussein, come on down!!

Sincerely,

Osama bin Laden, Zarqawi, Arafat, Muhammed, and of course, Satan

Posted by: nikkolai on December 30, 2006 at 10:08 AM

Nikkolai must know something we don't, because from all accounts Osama is still with us -- likely in subpar health, mind you, but still with us. And I doubt the souls of those who died on 9/11/01 are resting any easier knowing that Saddam -- a despicable dictator who killed thousands, but someone who had nothing to do with the attack on the WTC, Pentagon or United flight 93 -- has gone to his eternal fate while the real perpetrator behind the saddest day in recent U.S. history still hasn't been caught more than half a decade later. Thanks for the misguided emphasis, W. Now do you feel you've done what daddy couldn't (or, more wisely, didn't)?

Iraqis DID have some form of government before Bush's utter and complete anarchy.

Yes and Saddam used it to butcher 300,000 Kurds. He gassed whole villiages filled with women and children. You are a moron.

Today the Kurds are safe and very prosperous. They are smartly biding their time absorbing a tremendous wave of immigrants and managing dynamic economic growth. They are building schools. universities, hospitals, airports, etc. All of the things that make a society strong and prosperous.

The Kurds, by themselves, no matter what happens elsewhere, constitute the death of Saddam as a tremendous success. This 'nation' that was as low as 3.5M people is now approaching 6M and will hit 10M by 2012. This will be the largest, freeest and most propserous muslim nation in the world.

There goes rdw again, viciously smearing people for their opinions, this time calling someone a "moron."
A term regarded as highly insensitive and degrading in this day and age.

Wonder how safe the Kurds will feel if the Americans pull out and they can no longer hide behind the American military? The Turks and the Iranians will both put the brakes on the Kurdish miracle. Wait and see.

And for the record, those Kurds you love to tout? They have a real penchant for persecuting Christians. Try opening your browser to some international news sources, and not just the WSJ.

RSM
You are the mirror image of those people...

You're problem, RSM/SecularAnimist, is that you are a member of the sheep herd, which is OK, but are unable to distinguish between the sheepdog and the wolf, which is a failing of yours. The sheepdog protects the flock. The wolf is a predator that attacks the flock.

If insurgents announce they are going on a little hole-drilling solder iron-burning rampage against innocent civilians in Al Aqsa or wherever, they are fair game. They know they will be attacked, and it's better to remove them first rather than wait for the crime to be committed (your path to justice).

Wonder how safe the Kurds will feel if the Americans pull out and they can no longer hide behind the American military?

Since we only have about a dozen soldiers there now it won't pose much of a problem.

The Kurds now have all of the advantages of a strong defensive perimeter with a much stronger and larger militia. They are well trained and well armed.

Iran would not attack with it's national army because they'd get slaughtered and their primary method of funding insurgencies as in Hezbollah and Hamas cannot work in Kurdistan. The Kurds are a distinct ethnic group. Infiltration is not an option.

Turkey has far more to lose than to gain by attacking Kurdistan. We might see skirmishes as the PKK dashes in and out of Turkey but the Kurdish govt has been very careful not to support them. If Turkey were to invade Kurdistan the economic costs would be very severe starting with an end to EU membership and very signficant trade losses. The Turkish economy would be devastated. In addition a large scare invasion into Kurdustan would be very, very bloody. Think Russia in Afghanistan except worse.

The Turks in fact have been quite sober. Trade is booming across the border and Kurdistan is negotiating for a pipeline thru Turkey that will be highly profitable for both. Their economic goals will keep the situation calm.
The really cool thing about Kurdistan is how well their economy is functioning. They've had a historic inflow of refugees yet there are no tent cities nor any ghettos. Some cities have expanded by more than 50% by building modern afforable housing including malls and supermarkets. It's been remarkable.

This is a highly efficient capitalistic economy. There's little doubt they'll hit 10M citizens no later than 2012 with outstanding demographics. They have more than adequate manpower for a very sizeable military. They are modeling themselves after Israel and they are building the economic and democratic structures to make it happen. Every day Kurdistan gets stronger.

Saddam used poison gas and helicopter gunships and only chased the Kurds into the mountains. Saddam could not follow because his military would have been trapped and destroyed. Today the Kurds could easly repel an attack by helicopter or by tank. After delivering devastating blows they'd then retreat into the mountains where no one could follow.

Nope, The Kurds are too smart than to rely on the USA. They learned that lession in 1991. Their execution this time has been flawless. It's all about self-reliance. Rebuild the economy as you rebuild your society to maximize wealth creation and buy military self-sufficiency. Israel has of course been very accomodating this this regard. The Kurds are using time and trade to their advantage.

BTW: The Kurds are Sunni. The Turks, Sauds, Eqyptians and the rest of the Sunni world would have a very strong reaction to Shite Iran invading ANY Sunni region. The Kurds would have more military hardware than they could use if Iran even thought about invading.

And for the record, those Kurds you love to tout?

I believe nothing from Syria. My favorite source on Kurdistan has been Michael Totten and other bloggers who've actually been there. Totten has been there several times and travled extensively. He's been stunned at the incredible construction and the fact he feels like he's in Utah. The buildings are modern, housing developments are extensive and quite nice and the supermarkets have most of the same stuff we do althought are not quite as large.

Most cities are littered with cranes in the most massive construction boom he's ever seen. They are building airports like crazy and business is robust. He had pictures of the border with turkey with mile long backups. Not because customs were so difficult but because it was that busy.

The Kurds in fact are not very religious. They have their own constitution and legal system and it is totally secular. All religions are allowed.

This is one of the great unreported story of this age and it's quite positive that it is under-reported. The quieter it is the faster they grow and the more immigrants they absorb. It's a very nice cycle.

smearing people for their opinions, this time calling someone a "moron."

I was being nice. Anyone knowing Saddam gassed over 100,000 Kurdish women and children and suggests Iraq was better off then is a dickhead.

Well, if you don't know the difference between a Syrian and an Assyrian Christian, I wash my hands of further discoure with you, as it is simply a waste of bandwidth.

You never offer insight anyway, you just regurgitate ditto-head talking points and insist on repeating them ad nauseum even when you are shown to be totally and completely full of shit.

the moron writes: Anyone knowing Saddam gassed over 100,000 Kurdish women and children ...Yes and Saddam used it to butcher 300,000 Kurds.

Saddam didn't gas 300,000 or 100,000 Kurds except in your imagination. The accepted top figure is 5000. Disagree? Take it up with the U.S. Army War College who investigated the incidents.

The Kurds are Sunni

Wrong again.

Saddam used poison gas and helicopter gunships -

- that we sold to him.

If you don't know the difference between a Syrian and an Assyrian Christian,

I know the difference. I also know what the Syrian controlled press is. Remember Pravda?

The Kurds are Sunni

5, 500, 5,000 or 500,000 doesn't much matter. It takes a real dickhead to suggest Saddam as a good thing.

We sold a lot of people a lot of things but we did not sell Saddam poison gas. It's Saddam's responsibility and his alone.

When Muslims kill Muslims it's the Mulsims fault. Just as only a liberal could ever believe in socialism only a liberal could blame everyone else but Islam for their butchery.

The execution reminds me of all the death, the car bombings and IEDs, the catastrophic Iraq war, the sad plight of the Iraqi people and their ever- diminishing quality of life. That is all any of us ultimately have--the quality of our lives.
It sickens me as we hear the rationale de jour for the war--it is still real people, real US soldiers/and real Iraqi people, ending up with short lives due to this needless war. These are real deaths, real people. Life simply snuffed out. People with limbs blown off. All for the neo-cons grandiose imperial delusions. This is the most sickening time I have lived.

The Kurds are Sunni

No, you're wrong. The Kurds are Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Christian, and Yazdani.

5, 500, 5,000 or 500,000 doesn't much matter. It takes a real dickhead to suggest Saddam as a good thing.

Nice try, but the difference between 5000 and 300,000 really does matter, you lying, ignorant sack of hillbilly shit. And let's add a little context: the Kurds rose up against the government of Iraq and allied themselves with a foreign power that it was at war with, namely Iran -- you know, kinda like the Chechen rebels that I'm sure you have no problem with the Russian government killing by any means necessary.

That said, the gassing was a terrible, terrible thing, and while no one here thinks any good thing about Saddam the fact remains that the deaths in the country NOW are far outpacing the deaths back then, and by every other indicator Iraq as a society is worse off because of the invasion.

We sold a lot of people a lot of things but we did not sell Saddam poison gas. It's Saddam's responsibility and his alone.

We sold him the Bell helicopters that were used in that attack and it's likely we sold him chemicals used to make the gas employed in that attack. We had just hoped he'd use them against Iran.

As for moral responsbility, if you're pissed at your neighbor and I hate your neighbor too and I knowingly sell you a gun that you use to shoot and kill your neighbor -- then I bear some of the moral responsibility for that killing.

consider wisely always
All for the neo-cons grandiose imperial delusions. This is the most sickening time I have lived.

I'm not saying it's not sickening, but in Rwanda around a million Tutsis were massacred in the short period of 100 days while all of the modern world looked the other way. Why wasn't that even more sickening? At least this effort had some level of idealism behind it. That was just crass cowardice.

You make a valid point. I depise the republican rule in this counry, the stolen elections, every trick in the book to polarize people like you and me, the ignorance, the religious ideology in conflict with science and progress. This war. Lies and preying on fear. I have had enough. The execution revolted me.

despise republican rule in this country. Spelling errors as I rapidly type and do not adequately preview. I am sure you get my point

Heh. I have competition in the speed-typing error sweepstakes. How's about we just share the honor and make a resolution to remember that "preview is our Fred."

Hi, Global Citizen. I was just about ready to sign off. Have been trying to get the home ready for an event Monday. We take turns hosting the holidays. I don't have kids, so no one to delegate. Hubby has a kind of flu. How are ya?

Not too bad. Working on a post about how Kafka sw this all coming. There is a really chilling piece in the NY Times that will be delivered to my stoop in the morning. It can be found here if you want a preview and don't have access to Times Select.

Wow, what a post. Thank you. Keep up the great work.
What an outrage. And how contradictory of the president to have said "America will always stand firm for the nonnegotiable demands of human dignity."
Signatory nations to the Geneva Conventions were to abide by ratifications. What ugliness. It is really frightening what they have done in the name of the war on terror

I sent you an email with a link since I don't much care for blog-whores.

NOW are far outpacing the deaths back then, and by every other indicator Iraq as a society is worse off because of the invasion

No, most indictors are up. The Deaths are caused by muslims killing muslims. They are not the result of Saddam being disposed. They are the result of two medievil sects within Islam killing each other. All of the blame resides with the killers.

every trick in the book to polarize people like you and me

You really are a fool. Several of the founding fathers wanted to avoid a two party system because it reguires polatization and partisanship. But we went two party almost immediately and have been polarized ever since. There is nothing remotely unique about this period.

The difficulty you are having is your ideology has lost. Socialism is scorned in the sane world and post-Reagan supply-side capitalism has won a very decisive victory in a very short period of time. There hasn't been a liberal President since LBJ. Carter and Clinton had to run conservative campaigns. Mondale lost 49 states as a liberal. Clinton suffered devastating losses after promising tax cuts and delivering tax increases.

You hate the fact our wealth is in private hands and you think folk like Bill Gates should be forced to surrender all of their assests to the State. Yet you've seen death taxes as well as capital gains taxes cut to their lowest levels ever. You've lost badly. You also realize the post -Reagan generation has lived in a world of low raxes and will never buy into the European Welfare state. You've lost on gun control and crime. 3-strikes is one of the most popular laws even enacted.

You've lost on military issues. You want major cuts. Democrates are pushing for a larger Army. We've got major R&D commmitments on Star Wars with Japan, India and Israel with now very wide popular support. We don't want those Koreans bombing LA do we?

It's been a bad run and it's not about to get any better. 1968 is so over. Che and Fidel are so over. The UN and Western Europe are so over.

The USA remains an economic giant due to exceptional private wealth. We are the shining city on the hill. We do stand alone above everyone else.

BTW: Cool story. There's a nice flag store/ giftshop in the area in one of these strip malls. They sell every flag you can thing of as well as a variety of poles. They do many municipal as well as commerical flagpole installations. She had two stores in this mall of a dozen or so and was closing down the one side which as the giftshop. It was a bit of a mess. I have an 18 foot pole in the front of my house and needed clips to add a 2nd flag. I asked her how business was and she said boffo. The flag side was always 80% of sales and 20% of the work so she decided to shut down the gift side and just do flags. The spurt after 9/11 did not die down because more people are now aware even big flagpoles are easy to install and maintenance free. But the flags don't last forever and many people decide to add more flags and even flagpole. Besides the USA flag there's the marine flag, navy, etc, school flags, and others.

I asked her if she ever gets any feedback about Americans being so flaghappy and without any prompting said, "every once in a while some lefty will make a negative comment but I laugh and tell them to stop being such a dull boy and get a sense of humor. It drives them right up the wall".

Now that's my kind of lady!

Wooten, after reading your latest rambling, fact-free off-topic rant, I'm more convinced than ever that you were in a coma during the last election. Let me fill you in on what happened:

You lost, buddy. Big time.

The House, the Senate, governships, state houses -- everything. Everything went to Democrats, which is exactly the opposite of how you predicted it would happen. Get over it. Rambling on and on here about how it's all going to change in the future won't change anything.

Also, I'm not sure there was anything -- anything in your disjointed string of assertions that was actually true or resembled the world as it is.

Out of curiosity, has Saddam still killed more Iraqis than George Bush?

Just wondered whether they hurried the execution to get it in before the stats crossed...

Out of curiosity, has Saddam still killed more Iraqis than George Bush?
Posted by: Ally

Why do you hate America?

Why do you hate America?

Because it invaded our country under false pretenses, collapsed our entire society, and was directly or indirectly responsible for our deaths.

Because it invaded our country under false pretenses, collapsed our entire society, and was directly or indirectly responsible for our deaths.
Posted by: 600,000 dead Iraqis

Why didn't you overthrow your evil dictator?

The real Red State Mike is smarter than whoever posted that. He knows damn good and well that it was tried in 1991 and the help never materialized and Bush-1 sat back while thousands were slaughtered, and and another opportunity never materialized.

Better spoofs, please. Hint: It helps to be at least as intelligent as the person you are spoofing.

I'm not sure there was anything -- anything in your disjointed string of assertions that was actually true or resembled the world as it is.

How about this:

The USA remains an economic giant due to exceptional private wealth. We are the shining city on the hill. We do stand alone above everyone else.

Do you see the stock market averages? How about GDP numbers?

My friend if you go back to 1981 and track the amazing economic growth and wealth creation you'll be stunned. Further, if you contrast it with Western Europe you'll be traimatized.

Western Europe doesn't do strong growth or wealth creation. I have to tell you but over time that's a disaster.

Just look at Intel. It wasn't long ago Intel sold more chips to Europe than Asia. Today it's 4 to 1. In two, maybe three years it'll be 5 to 1 and then 6 to 1.

That's the our world. Them's the facts.

We now have more troops in Japan than Western Europe, closer trade ties and better diplomatic relations. The same is true of Australia and we're moving there with India

Do yourself a favor. Look up a recent quartetly financial report from GE or Intel or IBM or Catepilar or any other global commpany. They all include Geographic sales data and often with the historical data.

It tells the story.

The USA remains an economic giant due to exceptional private wealth. We are the shining city on the hill. We do stand alone above everyone else.

Do you see the stock market averages? How about GDP numbers?

Um, no. The nominal GDP of the European Union was HIGHER than that of the U.S. in 2005. Look it up you bozo. They were creating more wealth than us -- oh no, by your logic we must be doomed!!!

If you want to make a completely unequal comparison and gloat about our GDP being higher than Croatia's, well, then by all means continue your bizarre masturbatory exercise.

All your blather about intel chips and trade deals with Asia has fuck all to do with liberalism, the price of tea in China, or the topic of this thread. The only thing it REALLY has to do with is the little imaginary battle that goes on in your head where every time you order a crappy Yeungling lager instead of a real German beer you feel like you're sticking it to leftist students somewhere in Munich.

There's a term for that particular kind of crazy. Its "quixotic."