Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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January 2, 2007

NOTE TO GOODE: STOP DIGGING.... Rep. Virgil Goode (R-Va.) appeared to have weathered the storm. Last week, Goode made headlines for a blatantly bigoted letter to supporters in which he insisted Muslims represent a threat to "traditional" values, which is why, he said, we should pass massive immigration reform in order to keep more Muslims out of the country.

After his written remarks sparked widespread criticism, Goode refused to apologize. Indeed, he appeared on Fox News arguing, " I wish more people would take a stand and stand up for the principles on which this country was founded," though he did not elaborate on exactly which "principles" he was referring to.

Fortunately for Goode, interest in his comments died down. Unfortunately for Goode, he renewed interest in his anti-Muslim animus this morning with a USA Today op-ed. (via TP)

Let us remember that we were not attacked by a nation on 9/11; we were attacked by extremists who acted in the name of the Islamic religion. I believe that if we do not stop illegal immigration totally, reduce legal immigration and end diversity visas, we are leaving ourselves vulnerable to infiltration by those who want to mold the United States into the image of their religion, rather than working within the Judeo-Christian principles that have made us a beacon for freedom-loving persons around the world.

The context of all of this -- the controversy and the USAT op-ed -- is Goode's concern about Rep.-elect Keith Ellison (D-Minn), Congress' first Muslim, and his decision to use a Koran in his ceremonial swearing-in photo-op.

From this, Goode believes Americans should be concered about "infiltration"? Goode does know that Ellison's family has been in this country for over 200 years, right?

Remember, Republicans, he's one of yours.

Steve Benen 11:35 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (74)

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Comments

"we are leaving ourselves vulnerable to infiltration by those who want to mold the United States into the image of their religion, rather than working within the Judeo-Christian principles..."
This is a parody, right? No one could be this lacking in self-consciousness.

Posted by: SP on January 2, 2007 at 11:52 AM | PERMALINK

Ah, Kevin -

So you want us to become more like Europe, eh? Opening our borders and laying prostate before a throng of unassimalible Muslims from the Middle East, who are out breeding the Euros and will form the dominant majority on that continent by Mid-Century.
You want that here? Goode is right. We need to control this thing. It's not racist, its pragmatism.

Posted by: egbert on January 2, 2007 at 11:54 AM | PERMALINK

egbert sounds much better in the original German.

Posted by: cleek on January 2, 2007 at 11:58 AM | PERMALINK

Between Virginia Senator George Allen's election campaign "macaca" comment, the vote by several Virginia Episcopalian churches to separate from the US Episcopalian church over the issue of gay unions and women ministers, and most recently Virgil Goode's anti-Muslim comments, perhaps Virginia's school system is ignoring the Constitution in its curriculum.

Maybe it's the Constitutional history portion of the high school curriculum the State Board of Education had to eliminate after former Governor Gilmore cut the car tax several years ago.

Posted by: pj in jesusland on January 2, 2007 at 11:59 AM | PERMALINK

More and more, the Republicans are staking out their claim as the anti-freedom party. The Democrats would be wise to just let them keep digging that particular grave.

Posted by: Boots Day on January 2, 2007 at 12:01 PM | PERMALINK

Weirdly enough I agree with Goode. But not for any reason he'd like. We've got enough authoritarian, mysoginist, homophobic sects in this country as it is, we don't need to import any more. Till we can get the christians to stop dragging their knuckles, there's no reason to muddy the waters.

Posted by: SPROCKET on January 2, 2007 at 12:02 PM | PERMALINK

Contra Egbert, I do not intend on "laying prostate" before our new Muslim overlords. Sounds painful, in any case.

Posted by: Xenos on January 2, 2007 at 12:02 PM | PERMALINK

egbert may want to look up the meaning of "prostate" before commenting on who to lay it in front of.

Posted by: Shelby on January 2, 2007 at 12:02 PM | PERMALINK

And as Steve points out, this has nothing to do with immigration, and everything to do with religious freedom. We're not talking about "a throng of unassimalible [sic] Muslims from the Middle East"; we're talking about a lawyer from Minnesota.

Posted by: Boots Day on January 2, 2007 at 12:05 PM | PERMALINK

Muslims all look alike to Goode.

Seriously, how is the good Congressman Goode polling on all of this. He must be making points with somebody. Who? Why?

Posted by: Ron Byers on January 2, 2007 at 12:05 PM | PERMALINK

egbert sounds much better in the original German.

Don't insult the German language.

Posted by: Disputo on January 2, 2007 at 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

Goode is right, we've got enough religious extremists and moronic bigots like Goode without importing any more.

Posted by: haha on January 2, 2007 at 12:10 PM | PERMALINK

My guess is that egbert "lay[s] prostate before ... throng[s]" quite often.

Posted by: Disputo on January 2, 2007 at 12:10 PM | PERMALINK

"and his decision to use a Koran in his ceremonial swearing-in photo-op."

No, Steve, that was never "his" decision. It was a fiction made up by conservatives.

Posted by: a on January 2, 2007 at 12:11 PM | PERMALINK

Don't think either eggy or Goode speak German.

However, they do speak Mark Steyn fluently. oops, here comes the Witless Woot to spend the day.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on January 2, 2007 at 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

And who knows maybe one of Rep. Goode's ancestors was responsible for Rep. Ellison's ancestor's "infiltration."

Posted by: Ray Waldren on January 2, 2007 at 12:18 PM | PERMALINK

As Goody would say - "Oh mein Gott, Eurabia is morphing into Arabmerica."

Posted by: stupid git on January 2, 2007 at 12:19 PM | PERMALINK

A military poll showing a large portion of soldiers do not support the war is not widely reported and a Representative from Virginia is given op-ed space to spread fear about Muslim infiltration in our only national newspaper. I think that is indicative of how the mainstream media is used to manipulate mass opinion that supports the establishment point of view.

Posted by: Brojo on January 2, 2007 at 12:20 PM | PERMALINK

But Michael Moore is FAT!!!

Posted by: Al's Mommy on January 2, 2007 at 12:27 PM | PERMALINK

Maybe it's the Constitutional history portion of the high school curriculum the State Board of Education had to eliminate after former Governor Gilmore cut the car tax several years ago.

George Allen's HS education took place in CA, thanks. Can't stick us with that one.

Posted by: just sayin on January 2, 2007 at 12:30 PM | PERMALINK

What you're seeing is Virginia's neo-Confederates returning to their bigoted, exclusionary, states rights roots.

Goode's district stretches from Charlottesville in the "north" (home of UVA) down to Danville and a long stretch along the Virginia-North Carolina border called "Southside."

I suspect Goode's anti-Muslim comments are playing well in Southside, by far the largest part of his district. Martinsville, in Henry County, is where the police corruption probe is currently focused.

Posted by: pj in jesusland on January 2, 2007 at 12:32 PM | PERMALINK

Goode has an opinion, and he believes that it's a sign of character to stick with an opinion whether it's right or wrong. (or more accurately, he believes that voters buy into that assessment).

Remember when the Donkey was they symbol of Democrats, because Donkeys were stubborn?

Posted by: Extradite Rumsfeld on January 2, 2007 at 12:33 PM | PERMALINK

What are doing here in regards to the Keith Ellison oath issue is comparing apples to oranages.

I think most will agree Dennis Prager, like the neocon that he is, is acting like a jerk and can't handle the fact Ellison won so he drums up this issue in order to draw attention to himself and rile up his audience and get ratings. But then again what would you expect from a talk show host?

But all Goode is doing is pointing out the obvious. Yes Ellison may very well be Black Muslim/NOI covert type (who had to diassociate himself from some of the crazy rhetoric of the Nation just to get elected). But what about the immigrant Muslim who gets elected to majority Muslim district in, say, Detroit-area Michigan? What about the immigrant Hindu or immigrant Sikh? Maybe we can have Shinto swearing in ceremony too come to think of it, you never know.

Control and restrict immigration, which this country has done many times in its history and which other countries do quite well (like Mexico for example) and we don't have these kinds of cultural problems. It's that simple.

If there were better controls, there Mohammed Atta and his buddies don't get into the U.S. and there is no 9-11. It's that simple.

Posted by: Sean Scallon on January 2, 2007 at 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

Virgil Goode is a fool and so are the people who elected him. George Allen is also a fool. But pj in jesusland wrongfully links these two idiots with the members of certain Virginia Episcopalian churches who have decided to separate themselves from the US Episcopal church over the issue of gay unions. The former are representatives of our government and the latter are private citizens exercising their right to freeom of religious thought. You don't have to agree with them to support their right to free expression. The same could be said for Goode and Allen but then we shouldn't make the mistake of casting our vote for them. Thankfully, the majority of voters of Virginia made the right choice this past November when it came to Senator Allen but the folks in Goode's district still have their heads in the sand.

Posted by: Lamonte on January 2, 2007 at 12:44 PM | PERMALINK

Virgil Goode's district is in the same southwestern corner of Virginia where George Allen made his career-breaking macaca comments (Breaks, Va on the Kentucky border). These appeals to antique Dixieland bigotry have fertile ground in this cultural and economic backwater. It comes as no surprise.

The Episcopal story is quite different. All the congregations that voted to leave the Anglican Communion are in and around the District of Columbia. The one exception, St. Stephen's in Heathsville, is a tiny church on the Northern Neck- in a place, if I remember correctly, where a lot of rich folks have some rather nice houses. We know the Dominonists have been interested in splitting mainstream protestant congregations for some time. Given the location of these churches it is likely that their congregations are politically connected with elite movement conservatives. It is not a grassroots revolt.

Posted by: bellumregio on January 2, 2007 at 12:44 PM | PERMALINK

Guys, there's a new blogger here, by the name of Steve Benen. I'm not sure what kind of bait and switch the WM is pulling here, but I'm sure it doesn't show a lot of respect for the readership. Yet you go right a long lapping it up.

Hey Steve, why don't YOU quit digging!

Posted by: egbert on January 2, 2007 at 12:44 PM | PERMALINK

Q: With whom does he score points with this kind of fear-mongering & anti-Muslim bigotry?
A: How many people watch or listen to Glen Beck?

It increasingly seems to me that conservative politicians are running for a talking-head job on talk radio or Fox News, or for a publishing deal with Regnery, at least as much or morseo than they're running for public office. Goode's building himself a national audience, so he can make big bucks when he retires, and in the process risking little (because even those supporters in his district who take offense are unlikely to decide their vote based on it).

Posted by: TW on January 2, 2007 at 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

Guys, there's a new blogger here, by the name of Steve Benen. I'm not sure what kind of bait and switch the WM is pulling here, but I'm sure it doesn't show a lot of respect for the readership. Yet you go right a long lapping it up.

Yeah, how did this clown sneak in and take KD's place. Maybe he snuck in, hit Kevin on the head, and TOOK OVER HIS BLOG! Wow, I just KNOW that's what happened. Yeah, can you believe the bastard who hit KD and took his place. I just bet he dumped KD's body in the ocean and is now TAKING Kevin's money out of his accounts. WOWW!! WHat a JERK! Can you believe the nerve of him.

Even if KD announced that Steve was a replacement, I still have my suspicions.....

Posted by: POed Lib on January 2, 2007 at 12:48 PM | PERMALINK

What you're seeing is Virginia's neo-Confederates returning to their bigoted, exclusionary, states rights roots..
Posted by: pj in jesusland on January 2, 2007 at 12:32 PM | PERMALINK

I WISH they were for "state's rights". Because if that were the case, Gore would be president, and Medical Marijuana would be legal in California. They're only "state's rights" when it favors their radical KKK agenda.

Posted by: Extradite Rumsfeld on January 2, 2007 at 12:56 PM | PERMALINK

Guys, there's a new blogger here, by the name of Steve Benen. I'm not sure what kind of bait and switch the WM is pulling here, but I'm sure it doesn't show a lot of respect for the readership. Yet you go right a long lapping it up.

Nonsense. While he is decidedly more liberal than Kevin Drum, he is fairly easy for me to eviscerate. He has no command on the language and none of the eloquence that someone like myself brings to the table, but overall, he's a worthy substitute.

And I say that as perhaps one of the most capable of conservative commenters on this blog, notwithstanding this vendetta against me which means to suggest that I am a "parody."

Stand aside, "egbert" and allow a real Republican like myself to tell you how things are supposed to be.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on January 2, 2007 at 12:57 PM | PERMALINK

"Control and restrict immigration * * * and we don't have these kinds of cultural problems."

Can't see how we have anything chacterizable as "cultural problems" as a result of immigration or diversity, except inside the heads of Goode and his ilk.

Posted by: rea on January 2, 2007 at 12:58 PM | PERMALINK

"He has no command on the language"

Just out of curiousity, what language are you talking about? Surely it can't be English . . .

Posted by: rea on January 2, 2007 at 1:00 PM | PERMALINK

Exemplify Rumsfeld:

Because if that were the case, Gore would be president, and Medical Marijuana would be legal in California.

Oh, is that correct? And "Wavy Gravy" would be Secretary of Acid Flashbacks, wouldn't he? Well, I thank the Creator that people like you are marginalized and powerless; your desperate desire to have fifty pounds of free marijuana given to you every day by the State is not likely to pass through any respectable legislature, and just for advocating for medical marijuana, you should serve a weekend in jail.

And, my pardons, I should have written:

He has no command of the language.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on January 2, 2007 at 1:03 PM | PERMALINK

Is this the comment on the idiot commenters thread ? Nothing like lowering the tone of discussion to the lowest common denominator ... and this isn't math.
There's quite a stretch to link Americans who have been here for centuries to the changing cultural makeup of the country. Are there lots of those of today's vilified religious group applying ? Samaritans, aren't they ? From Mexico ?

Posted by: opit on January 2, 2007 at 1:12 PM | PERMALINK

Virgil Goode shoots himself, and the rest of his constituents, in both feet with his comments.

Goode represents one of the poorest areas of the state. Tobacco is in a tailspin. Danville has never replaced the textile industry that has left over the years.

Just which companies with over 100 employees does Goode think will look favorably at locating in a remote part of the state that Goode, Allen and the rest of the Virginia GOP repeatedly remind people is openly hostile to a multi-ethnic workforce?

Goode is afflicted with a symptom common to the GOP in Southside and surrounding areas. It's called "Northern Virginia Envy," or as it's referred to at Danville GOP gatherings, "Northern Virginia Spite." They want Northern Virginia's tax dollars but not all the social and legal responsibilities that come with it.

Well, Virgil, as George Allen said to S.R. Sidarth, "Welcome to the real America."

Posted by: pj in jesusland on January 2, 2007 at 1:16 PM | PERMALINK

I thank the Creator that people like you are marginalized and powerless;Posted by: Norman Rogers on January 2, 2007 at 1:03 PM | PERMALINK

Is that the "one true Creator?"

.. your desperate desire to have fifty pounds of free marijuana given to you every day by the State

When did I say I wanted that? All I want is Americans to have the RIGHT to so something that harms nobody else.

Apparently you believe America should be a fascist dictatorship. You believe in neither a Constitution, nor a Bill of Rights, nor even the concept of Rights. You need a big daddy government to come in and spank people for you when you think they're having more fun than you. How sad.

is not likely to pass through any respectable legislature,

We have not had a respectable legislature in this country in over 200 years.

and just for advocating for medical marijuana, you should serve a weekend in jail.

Hell, why not some light bondage, and electrodes on the testicles while you're at it?

I've got some bad news for you, norman. Your hero, and spiritual leader was just executed by hanging two days ago.

Posted by: Extradite Rumsfeld on January 2, 2007 at 1:20 PM | PERMALINK

Goode is bad.

Orwell was right.

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on January 2, 2007 at 1:31 PM | PERMALINK

Exemplify Rumsfeld:

Is that the "one true Creator?"

I'm Episcopalian, of course. Whatever else you want to believe, do it on your terms and leave Christmas alone.

All I want is Americans to have the RIGHT to so something that harms nobody else.

You want people to be able to do drugs, tune out of society, freak out in the middle of the day, and abandon any pretense of being responsible adults--typical liberal.

you believe America should be a fascist dictatorship. You believe in neither a Constitution, nor a Bill of Rights, nor even the concept of Rights. You need a big daddy government to come in and spank people for you when you think they're having more fun than you. How sad.

No, that's your hang-up, sir. Too bad the drug laws have stopped you from living like Charles Bukowski and Allen Ginsberg on a bender with five million bucks and a platinum credit card.

We have not had a respectable legislature in this country in over 200 years.

Here in New Hampshire we have one--they put druggies like you in the hoosegow.

Hell, why not some light bondage, and electrodes on the testicles while you're at it?

Mmm, no, that's another one of your hangups, not mine.

I've got some bad news for you, norman. Your hero, and spiritual leader was just executed by hanging two days ago.

No, Gerald Ford died of natural causes, but thank you for noticing. Like a good American, I'm sure you fired up a bowl, shot a policeman, and used the Internet to defame someone smarter than you.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on January 2, 2007 at 1:39 PM | PERMALINK

"But what about the immigrant Muslim who gets elected to majority Muslim district in, say, Detroit-area Michigan? What about the immigrant Hindu or immigrant Sikh?"

Ok. What about them?

"Maybe we can have Shinto swearing in ceremony too come to think of it, you never know."
Sure. And . . .?


". . . and we don't have these kinds of cultural problems. It's that simple."

Like 'round the turn of the last century ->1920s, when the "cultural problems" were Eastern and Southern European immigrants who surely could never assimilate, and would just swamp good native Anglo-Saxon Americans (especially since all the best white women were flirting with race suicide by getting educated and not having enough babies to counter the demographic threat), take over the country, destroy valued traditions, and generally wreck the place, having no capacity for democracy.

Before that, of course, it was the Irish papists, who were trying to destroy American democracy and traditions, replacing it with rule from Rome . . .

Posted by: Dan S. on January 2, 2007 at 1:42 PM | PERMALINK

I always think it's interesting when fellows like Goode talk about "the principles on which the nation was founded." The split between the Enlightenment crowd and the Puritan crowd goes all the way back to some degree, but the radical right goes out of its way to portray the "founding fathers" as a group of bible-thumping xenophobic bigots who created the United States as a place where everyone had complete freedom to be just like them. (And by the way, they think that's a very good thing.)

I'm just saying that you can't really have this discussion without a clear understanding that when Goode talks about the founding fathers' intentions for this nation, the keyword list does not include "Elightenment, Age of Reason, Voltaire, Rousseau, etc."

Posted by: erica on January 2, 2007 at 1:42 PM | PERMALINK

by those who want to mold the United States into the image of their religion, rather than working within the Judeo-Christian principles

Quick, spot the logical flaw...

Posted by: craigie on January 2, 2007 at 2:03 PM | PERMALINK

Spanking and light bondage wherever I turn! Extradite Rumsfeld, I'm watching you, sir.

Posted by: shortstop on January 2, 2007 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK

Gee, I sounded kind of like Norman Rogers there...

Posted by: shortstop on January 2, 2007 at 2:29 PM | PERMALINK

Okay everyone posting, who here is ready for a Mormon President? Anyone? Anyone? How about a Calvinist?

Yeah, I thought so. Spare me your hypocricies on assimilation. Apparently some religions are more equal than others.

Good thing those Southern and Eastern Europeans were coming from a Christianized and Jewish culture into a Christianzied and Judeo culture. It would have been a little harder to fit into, say, a Hinduized culture. Even so there were still culture clashes, such as the Mafia for example. But they've been tamed and truly Americanized, meaning they've become a joke.

Demographics is destiny whether anyone is PC enough here to admit it or not. Unless you wish to see artists, musicians or critics gunned down in the street for poking fun at Mohammed or have burning ghettos like France you'd better realize immigration policy does affect our national culture, including politics.

Posted by: Sean Scallon on January 2, 2007 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK

After all, importing millions of Muslims has worked out just fine for the Netherlands, Britain, and France!

Posted by: Steve Sailer on January 2, 2007 at 2:47 PM | PERMALINK

After all, importing millions of Muslims has worked out just fine for the Netherlands, Britain, and France!
Posted by: Steve Sailer on January 2, 2007 at 2:47 PM | PERMALINK

Why do we have to blame multiculturalism for this problem?

I think we should blame the Cheap Labor Conservatives instead.

Pay Americans well, and you'll have plenty of workers, and you won't need to import desperate people from countries you've turned into shitholes with Conservative economic policies.

Posted by: Extradite Rumsfeld on January 2, 2007 at 2:53 PM | PERMALINK

Let us remember that we were not attacked by a nation on 9/11

I wonder why we invaded a nation in retaliation?

Posted by: Charles Stanton on January 2, 2007 at 3:03 PM | PERMALINK

BTW, this whole swearing-in-on-the-Bible/Koran controversy is just another one of those right wing made-up issues.

The official swearing-in ceremony for members of Congress is done in the House chambers, with the Speaker of the House administering the oath of office en masse (note for Norman: en masse is a French term that means "all together"). So swearing in is a completely secular event. No Bibles, no Torahs, no Korans. People simply hold up their hands and swear to support and defend the Constitution.

If they have a problem taking oaths they can simply affirm they will uphold the Constitution.

From http://clerk.house.gov/members/memFAQ.html#oath:

"As required by Article 6 of the U.S. Constitution, Members of Congress shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support the Constitution. Representatives, delegates, and the resident commissioner all take the oath of office on the first day of the new Congress, immediately after the House has elected its Speaker. The Speaker of the House administers the oath of office as follows:

"I, (name of Member), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

The president-elect traditionally takes the oath with his hand on the Bible. However, this is not a requirement. In 1853 Franklin Pierce simply affirmed he would uphold the Constitution and he didn't kiss the Bible. Theodore Roosevelt took the oath in 1901 without swearing on a Bible.

The use of Bibles and Korans is an entirely optional extra step Members can take for their own purposes -- after the real oath is sworn. Typically the Bible event involves a photo op for the Christians back home.

Like the war on Christmas the GOP and the conservative right have invented another false issue that Rep. Goode and the main stream media have ginned up into an anti-Democratic Party theatrical event. Goode's intended message is probably that Democrats are anti-Christian, but he delivers his message in a way that also makes him and the GOP sound like anti-Muslim bigots.

Posted by: pj in jesusland on January 2, 2007 at 3:04 PM | PERMALINK

All of the comments I've seen regarding Goode both deliberately misunderstand what he was talking about and deliberately avoid the main issue.

With that in mind, perhaps Benen would like to take this chance to advocate for massive immigration of devout Muslims. If he's not willing to do that, then he's not providing a counterargument to Goode's letter.

-- Immigration Reform

Posted by: TLB on January 2, 2007 at 3:08 PM | PERMALINK

I wonder why we invaded a nation in retaliation?

Class, let me have your attention. I want you all to take not of this exquisite example of a false equivalency. Look for a lot more of these in the coming months.

By the way, asshat, Afghanistan was a failed state with a rogue government which gave cover to the terrorists who launched attacks against American targets.

And now we are fighting a war against a transitive verb.

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 2, 2007 at 3:13 PM | PERMALINK

You want people to be able to do drugs, tune out of society, freak out in the middle of the day, and abandon any pretense of being responsible adults--typical liberal.Posted by: Norman Rogers on January 2, 2007 at 1:39 PM | PERMALINK

No. I want people to be able to be grown ups, and take the responsibility for their own actions, and do whatever the hell they want to do in the privacy of their own homes if it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Please cite the passage in the Constitution where it says everyone has to fit YOUR definition of "responsible adult".

Too bad the drug laws have stopped you from living like Charles Bukowski and Allen Ginsberg on a bender with five million bucks and a platinum credit card.

No - my liver stops me from doing that. And my desire to work and earn an honest living and support my family. See, I'm a grown up. I'm a responsible adult. I'm an American citizen, and I don't need sexually frustrated adult-diaper-wearing fascists telling me how to live my life.

Too bad you have this need to control other people's lives, because you're clearly not in control of your own.

"Help me! Daddy! Those brown people over there are having fun! Stop them, before baby Jesus cries!"

Even so there were still culture clashes, such as the Mafia for example.Posted by: Sean Scallon on January 2, 2007 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK

Or the IRA! Or the widespread financial support of IRA terrorist bombings through charity donations from Irish people in the US. (I'm from Chicago - don't try to say that didn't happen.)

But they've been tamed and truly Americanized, meaning they've become a joke.

Well, compared to the Bush Crime Family - yes, the Mafia truly are pikers.

Demographics is destiny whether anyone is PC enough here to admit it or not.

Yes. Give them middle-class jobs and wages, send their kids (especially the daughters) to college, and your "destiny" problem takes care of itself.

But make them "guest workers", pay them crap, and ostracize them so they isolate themselves in ghettos, where they don't need to learn our language, and where they don't benefit equally from government social spending and OF COURSE you'll have problems.

Unless you wish to see artists, musicians or critics gunned down in the street. . .

Frankly, that sounds like a typical wingnut fantasy. Jerking off to the thought of Sean Penn or George Cloony eating a bullet during an awards ceremony.

...for poking fun at Mohammed or have burning ghettos like France you'd better realize immigration policy does affect our national culture, including politics.

That's a law-enforcement issue. If individual citizens commit violent acts, you arrest them, give them a fair trial, and toss them in the clink. And realize that spending on law-enforcement can go down (and tax revenues go up) when you have a healthy, thriving middle class. No matter what their skin color is. People would rather work hard and earn an honest living than complain and steal and riot and burn. But not if the game is rigged to keep them poor no matter how hard they work. If the system does not reward character - the result will be; surprise! people who lack character!

Posted by: Extradite Rumsfeld on January 2, 2007 at 3:24 PM | PERMALINK

By the way, asshat, Afghanistan was a failed state with a rogue government which gave cover to the terrorists who launched attacks against American targets.

I stand corrected, rephrase...I wonder why we invaded the nation of Iraq in retaliation.

Thanks for the clarification opportunity and the asshat comment. It shows great intellectual depth.

Posted by: Charles Stanton on January 2, 2007 at 3:25 PM | PERMALINK

Quick story about being Muslim in America. I have a neice who was raised a Christian. She married a Muslim. They have a 7 year old son. They live in a nice middle class American neighborhood in a midwestern city. Recently the kid came home and told mom about a bunch of his friends who participate in a Christian church youth group every Wednesday afternoon. He asked if it was OK for him to join and if mom would host the youth leader and his buddies it every so often. She said fine. Well, my neice is a medical student so her schedule is a little tight. Her husband, an engineer, is now the host parent about once every 6 weeks. So far the little kids have all had a great time and their parents feel safe with a very Muslim dad acting as occasional host.

Even more recently their son encountered Hanukkah. Some of his other school friends are Jewish. He was impressed with the story and told his parents he thought the jewish people were special. He told them if it was OK with the family, he would like to be Jewish. The parents smiled, but agreed not to tell Dad's parents.

Folks, I suspect that eventually my great nephew will become a Muslim, but he might become a Christian, or maybe even a Jew. Heck, who knows what next week might bring. He might even become an atheist. That is what assimilation is all about. That is what America is all about, Representative Goode's bigotry not with standing.

Posted by: Ron Byers on January 2, 2007 at 3:48 PM | PERMALINK

Charles Stanton - my apologies. I misread your comment, and I was in hyper-troll-smashing mode.

It's no excuse, but it might rise to the level of a reason...

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 2, 2007 at 3:48 PM | PERMALINK

Okay everyone posting, who here is ready for a Mormon President? Anyone? Anyone? How about a Calvinist?

Wasn't Calvin Coolidge alreay president?

Posted by: D'oh Jones on January 2, 2007 at 4:14 PM | PERMALINK

If memory serves, Ellison comes from the Jamil Diab wing of American Islam that I keep noting to you guys.

Posted by: theAmericanist on January 2, 2007 at 4:17 PM | PERMALINK

who here is ready for a Mormon President? Anyone? Anyone? How about a Calvinist?

how about an atheist ?

Posted by: cleek on January 2, 2007 at 4:25 PM | PERMALINK

"who here is ready for a Mormon President? Anyone? Anyone? How about a Calvinist?"

I'd be ready for either if I agreed with their political views more than those of their opponent. That also goes for Puritans, Taoists, Wikkas, and believers in Festivus.

Posted by: smuggler on January 2, 2007 at 5:19 PM | PERMALINK

Ron Byers,

Quick story about being Muslim in America.

That is a great story that truly reflects America's aspirations as a nation. If only Goode would realize that (not to mention the resident trolls). Thanks for posting it.

Posted by: Edo on January 2, 2007 at 5:45 PM | PERMALINK
Okay everyone posting, who here is ready for a Mormon President?

I wouldn't oppose a candidate because they were Mormon (though most Mormons likely to run I would probably oppose for other reasons).

How about a Calvinist?

You mean like Jackson, Cleveland, Harrison, Eisenhower, Reagan, and possibly others?

Posted by: cmdicely on January 2, 2007 at 6:01 PM | PERMALINK
...importing millions of Muslims has worked out just fine for the Netherlands, Britain, and France! Steve Sailer at 2:47 PM
Steve Sailer, "a leading promoter of racist pseudoscience"... as usual fails to realize the value of multiculturalism. This has been working well in the US which currently has a more open society than many others. If the US has a saving grace, that is it. Posted by: Mike on January 2, 2007 at 6:13 PM | PERMALINK

You're not going to find a lot of liberal Mormons Harry Reid nonewithstanding. There's a reason why Utah and Idaho are heavily Republican. And I also doubt anyone around here would vote for a candidate who's religious beliefs told him or her God created the world in seven days, wives are subject to their husbands, and we're all going to die except for the chosen few when the day of the Rapture comes. Yes folks, relgion does influence the way people vote. Don't say that it doesn't.

I agree the aforementioned story was touching but one possible outcome that wasn't mentioned is that by the time the kids grows up more the boy will be Muslim abd have learned his Islam in a Saudi-funded Wahhhabist madrassa where they teach the infidel must either convert to Islam or die. Since we're viewing religion as a matter of consumer tastes rather than tradition and of blood, I thought I should just throw that out as possible consumer choice.

I'm sorry, I'm not interested in birthing a fith-columnist movement inside our own borders. It may be true that older generations of Catholics were taught never to talk to Protestants because they were going to hell. But the inquistion and 30-years war rhetoric was left behind in the 17th century. Seperatism is one thing. Conquest and terrorism is something else entirely.

Posted by: Sean Scallon on January 2, 2007 at 6:28 PM | PERMALINK

theAmericanist:

I noticed. You mean that he was from the background of / was raised as (I dunno how old the guy is) NOI, and then mass-converted to Sunni Islam after Malcolm's death.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 2, 2007 at 6:34 PM | PERMALINK

Virgil Goode's district is in the same southwestern corner of Virginia where George Allen made his career-breaking macaca comments (Breaks, Va on the Kentucky border). These appeals to antique Dixieland bigotry have fertile ground in this cultural and economic backwater. It comes as no surprise.

Not true. Southwest Virginia is in the 9th District, and its representative is Rick Boucher, a moderate Democrat, who's held the seat since 1983. Goode's district, the 5th, is essentially from Charlottesville south to the North Carolina state line.

Please get your facts straight before you whitewash all of rural Virginia with the paint of bigotry.

Posted by: Vincent on January 2, 2007 at 7:14 PM | PERMALINK

some ridiculously insane bigot wrote:

Control and restrict immigration, which this country has done many times in its history and which other countries do quite well (like Mexico for example) and we don't have these kinds of cultural problems. It's that simple.

Yeah, but to really make this work, to *really* wipe the country clean of all alien influence, we'd first we'd have to purge all Jews and Blacks, but then who would we get to run the banks and play basketball? I guess we could still import Canadians -- just so long as they aren't the *French* ones.

Posted by: Disputo on January 2, 2007 at 8:32 PM | PERMALINK

The only insane person around here is you Disputo. Insane an hysterical. When did I start talking "wiping" anything clean? All I'm talking about is immigration control.

Why do we need to import anyone at all? Do you think people are more important that to be treated like goods and services being transported back and forth across the border?

Boy, some people around here.

Posted by: Sean Scallon on January 3, 2007 at 12:28 AM | PERMALINK

I gotta give Sean Scallon credit for not insisting that he isn't a bigot -- he's more self aware than I expected.

Posted by: Disputo on January 3, 2007 at 1:04 AM | PERMALINK

I live in Goode's district, and trust me, there's LOTS of us here who have been trying to get rid of him for years. Here's a nice thing I saw - on his office window here in Charlottesville, someone painted "BIGOT".

In '08, throw his opponent some bucks and we can can this ass.

Posted by: me on January 3, 2007 at 1:25 AM | PERMALINK
Control and restrict immigration, which this country has done many times in its history and which other countries do quite well (like Mexico for example) and we don't have these kinds of cultural problems.

Mexico controls and restricts immigration as effectively as it does (which isn't, anyhow, all that effectively) by two principal means:
1) The southern border is comparatively short, and the conditions in Southern Mexico are only marginally better than those on the other side.
2) While the northern border is really long, conditions in Mexico are much worse than on the Northern side.

Insofar as the US can mimic any of these control mechanisms, its not what I would call an attractive option. That being said, its also not exactly like Mexico doesn't have cultural problems despite whatever success Mexico may have controlling immigration and the national program conducted for decades under PRI rule and continuing today by the government to promote a strong unifying national culture. It's just that the clash of values in Mexico is produced by the utter lack of common experience between its rather stable and large poor class and its equally stable but tiny wealthy elite: a divide America is working, foolishly, to mimic.

Posted by: cmdicely on January 3, 2007 at 3:48 AM | PERMALINK
But the inquistion and 30-years war rhetoric was left behind in the 17th century.

In point of fact, the Inquisition was abolished (or, more accurately, renamed) in the 20th Century, rather than the 17th.

As for the eliminationist rhetoric between Catholics and Protestants, while I haven't in my lifetime heard it from the Catholic side in this country, I've certainly been handed pamphlets espousing it from the Protestant side several times in the last two decades.

Seperatism is one thing. Conquest and terrorism is something else entirely.

Yes, and unfortunately the "Christian" Right seems bent on the latter rather than the former. Point?

Posted by: cmdicely on January 3, 2007 at 3:52 AM | PERMALINK

""who here is ready for a Mormon President? Anyone? Anyone? How about a Calvinist?""

Ok.

". It may be true that older generations of Catholics were taught never to talk to Protestants because they were going to hell. "

From the entry on Philadelphia Nativist Riots over at wikipedia -

"The Philadelphia Nativist Riots (also known as the Philadelphia prayer riots of 1844, the Bible riots and the Native American riots) were a series of riots that took place between May 3 and May 8 and July 6 and July 7, 1844 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and its suburbs. The riots involved conflicts between nativists and recent Irish Catholic immigrants. The May riots began in Kensington after tensions had risen after anti-Catholic groups began spreading misinformation that Catholics were trying to remove the Bible from public schools. The July riots began in Southwark after a Catholic church armed itself for protection. Both riots resulted in loss of life and property damage.

. . . The nativists returned to Kensington and fighting broke out again. The Hibernia fire station, thirty Irish homes and a market were destroyed by fire. The crowd only dispersed once the local militia arrived. Bishop Kenrick issued a statement telling Catholics not to resort to violence and when the rioting continued on May 8 it was dominated by Protestants and nativists. . . . Rioters burned down St. Michael's Catholic Church and rectory, the Seminary of the Sisters of Charity, and several homes before soldiers arrived and the fire was contained . . . . Mayor John Morin Scott had stationed troops near St. Augustine's Church, but the rioters ignored them and burned down the building, cheering when the steeple fell. A nearby school with a collection of rare books was burned as well. . . An estimated fifty people were injured, 200 hundred fled their homes and damage totaled US$150,000 . . .

. . . The removal of the arms did not quell the anger and on July 6 a mob had gathered outside the church. The local militia guarded the building, but by the early morning of July 7 rioters had forced the militia to withdraw and had taken over the church. The militia then began to try to clear the rioters off of nearby Queen Street. The rioters fought back shooting at the militia from the crowd and buildings. Three cannons were taken from a nearby ship and used against the soldiers. The militia also brought in two cannons. The fighting ended around midnight after the state militia arrived and forced the rioters to disperse.. . . An estimated 5,000 militia were used to quell the violence, and fifteen people were killed and fifty were injured."

Talk about cultural problems! (And New York faced very similar tensions, although it was able to keep the lid on and head ff violence, due to assorted factors.)

Should we have controlled and restricted immigration here? - And note that one major category of 'ethnic violence' has been of this sort - nativists beatin' on folks who have the gall to assume they get to be American (to drastically simplify). Read about the kind of fears lots of previously-immigrated Protestants - from raving nativists to fairly moderate, reasonable-sounding folk - had re: Catholic immigration - you may note both how familiar and yet ridiculously absurd they sound.

"g but one possible outcome that wasn't mentioned is that by the time the kids grows up more the boy will be Muslim abd have learned his Islam in a Saudi-funded Wahhhabist madrassa where they teach the infidel must either convert to Islam or die."

I suppose that's technically a possibility, although you seem to have completely missed Extradite's point about the kind of conditions that might make this slightly more likely. A more likely possibility is that a neighboring kid will be learning Christian Nationalism while being homeschooled or perhaps in some sort of private academy . . .

Look, our country's openness and freedom bring with them certain risks (some more real than others, I'd say, but . . .). Every time we face social change (including increased immigration), the folks already here tend to sort out towards two general (and abstract, reality is always messier) poles. To use the consumer choice analogy, there are the folks who are confident that our basic product will win out, if we promote i t and show how good it is - perhaps with some changes, of course, some new ideas, but that's what new and improved's about! Then there are the folks who think we have a crappier product with the other guys, and have to make sure to restrict any competition.

I actually believe in American values. Do you?

Posted by: Dan S. on January 3, 2007 at 8:08 AM | PERMALINK

In practices and pre-game warm-ups over the years I have asked my soccer players while they do their stretches to count to 10 in the languages they speak at home. This year thy can count in five languages. In previous years I've had as many as six or seven.

Diversity isn't a burden to be shouldered or an affectation to tout. For a growing number of Ameicans it's simply our way of life.

Posted by: pj in jesusland on January 3, 2007 at 9:21 AM | PERMALINK

Had Protestants exercised more immigration control back in the 19th Century they would still be in a position of dominance in the U.S. today and I say this as a Catholic myself. And considering the attitudes of some on the left towards the Catholic Church, maybe they would wish that Protestants back then had not dropped the ball on this issue. Remember one and all, Protestants back then (and some today for that matter still believe this) believed that the Pope was the Anti-Christ. Well, why would you want all those little devils immigrating into the U.S. in order to deliver the nation to Lucifer himself? When Al Smith ran for President in 1928, his opponents said that Pope Pius XI would move to Washington and take up residence in the capitol and that the U.S would build a tunnel under the Atlantic Ocean to connect the White House to the Vatican. Yes, that kind of rhetoric was being said at that the time.

Now, I'm not going to lead a torch parade to go and burn down mosques unlike Protestants back in Philadelphia in 1844. Being against the war in Iraq, I am against violence. But in order to avoid such ugliness from ever taking place again, that the U.S. must disengage from Mecca, meaning the withdrawl of U.S. forces from the region and the strict control of all Muslim immigrants into the United States. If my co-religionists could have immigration controls placed on them in the 1920s, I don't see why the same cannot happen now and as it turned out, did the country much good. Remember this, immigration back then was phsychic break from the Old World to the New. In today's interconnected world, its easier to just live in the U.S as an ex-pat just trying to earn enough money to send to the folks back home instead of assimilating.

P.J's story reminds me of the officers in the Austro-Hungarian Empire's armed forces having to give out their orders in 10 different languages. That empire didn't last and unless the U.S. rejects empire as well, it will not last either.


Posted by: seanscallon on January 4, 2007 at 11:30 AM | PERMALINK
If my co-religionists could have immigration controls placed on them in the 1920s, I don't see why the same cannot happen now

Because it was a bad idea then and remains a bad idea now, no matter whose religion is targetted.

Its like someone with African-American ancestry saying "If those of my race could be enslaved in the for the first three-quarters of a century of the existence of this country, I don't see why the same can't happen now to Whites".

Posted by: cmdicely on January 4, 2007 at 12:55 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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