Luckily, invading US forces didn't leave entire munition dumps unguarded, for then, tons of high explosives could have been looted by the insurgency.

Hey, Gore/Edwards 08 -

Stuff happens. Freedom's messy.

Deal with it.

-

But it's still IRANIAN technology! Make them take it back.

I got up at 6am today. A FRIDAY! I've had two cups of coffee. And Cleek and Gore/Edwards 08 are stealing the words right off my keyboard in every thread!

There is absolutely no truth to the rumor that the chain store EFPs R'Us is a wholely owned subsidiary of Halliburton.

Bush went into Afganistan for Bin Laden.
He went into Iraq for oil, excuse me, Sadam who didn't like us and controled oil.
He is going into Iran for.....what? 'Cause they don't like us and they control oil?

Is Venezuela next, then? They don't like us either and they have oil. Plus, they are closer than Iran, and suddenly all friends with Iran now that they have a common hatred.

It has to be Iranian manufactured-IEDs at the highest levels. Only sophisticated mullahs would have the chutzpah to stamp their bombs in English, and we know the insurgents simply aren't that sophisticated. Slamdunk, you realize this means war!

Atrios quotes Tony Snow on this topic

"You cannot deny that these weapons exist. You cannot deny that there is presently no manufacturing capability within Iraq able to produce those kinds of weapons."

Funny how Al and the 'bots never complained about this they were told to, in the last few weeks.

Ohmigod, another pressing emergency I just found out about!!! Quick, invade somebody!!!

Except for that ONE machine shop in Baghdad.

The real thing to worry about isn't really these EFP's because as with any IED, they're a short-range threat, and there are countermeasures against those (ie. stay the fuck away from anything that might have a bomb in it).

The real threat - and this has been known for about two years, is the type-7 RPG warheads, which have been proven capable of punching through the most heavily armored and advanced tanks in the world: the M1 Abrams. These warheads are not easy to come by (supposedly) - and only Russia manufactures them. (that powerpoint that came out the other day had a photo of one).

If these things become widely available in Iraq (or if sophisticated SAM's become available - you know, like the ones we sold to Al Qaeda in Afghanistan in the 1980's that helped them kick out the Soviet Union by shooting down their helicopters) (or, if .50 cal sniper rifles - of the type we sold to Al Qaeda in the 1980's became avalable in Iraq) - then we'd be in for some serious trouble.

No doubt the Baghdad machine shop making EFPs is an aberration because the terrorists can get EFPs from Iran a lot easier and therefore there is no need to make it on their own.
Posted by: Al on February 16, 2007 at 12:38 PM | PERMALINK

If they're getting them from Iran, if they're getting ANYTHING from Iran, then it is OUR fault.

WE are the country who dropped 150k troops into Iraq, and dismantled their entire civic structure. WE are responsible for controlling arms depots, and the flow of arms across the border. By failing to secure these things, we screwed ourselves.

You don't move into a bad neighborhood, and leave your front door unlocked, and then complain when crackheads walk in the front door, steal your TV, and rape you daughter on the living room couch.

Or maybe you do. But that would make you an idiot.

This from the admin's secret briefing earlier this week: "The precise machining of E.F.P. components, the officials said, also links the weapons to Iran. “We have no evidence that this has ever been done in Iraq,� the senior military official said."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/world/middleeast/12weapons.html

Sounds like a lie to me.

"You cannot deny that these weapons exist. You cannot deny that there is presently no manufacturing capability within Iraq able to produce those kinds of weapons."

Yes, the same Iraq that allegedly produced WMDs in 2002 is now incapable of operating a machine shop.
Didn´t anyone point that out to Snow?

Real Iranian EPF. US claimed Iranian EPFs. See a difference?
Strange how all those "Iranian" weapons had English markings. Do soldiers in the Iranian army have to be English speakers to join? Or do you think they would use markings than their own army could read?

At first glance it would seem that the Bush admnistration is lying about this in order to justify its planned attack on Iran.

However, the Bush administration's lies about this, and about everything going on in Iraq, and about everything to do with Iran, and about everything to do with the Middle East in general, have become so convoluted and incoherent and apparently pointless, not to mention so laughably, blatantly phony that lies told by one "faction" within the Bush administration are sometimes immediately refuted and discredited by another faction, that I don't think they are lying for any particular purpose any more. The administration is in chaos, and they are just lying for the sake of lying: "What are we doing? Where are we going? Who knows! Nobody knows! So ... let's LIE!"

Extradite Rumsfeld: (or if sophisticated SAM's become available - you know, like the ones we sold to Al Qaeda in Afghanistan in the 1980's that helped them kick out the Soviet Union by shooting down their helicopters)

The charge on those batteries on those batteries expired long ago. No one considers them a threat.

Sounds like Tony Snow's revving up the Chewbacca Defense:

"You cannot deny ... "

Explosively Formed Penetrators are NOT Improvised Explosive Devices. They are improvised anti-tank missiles. The fact that they are 'improvised' merely means they are hand crafted. So EFPs are hand crafted anti-tank missiles that effective against million dollar modern equipment for 20 bucks plus the cost of explosives.

The days when any power can occupy a country that doesn't want them there are ending. An insurgency can fight a superpower to a stalemate with Popular Support + 5 gallon pails + explosives + copper disks + teh physics.

You can't beat physics with a billion dollar procurement contract. Before we build adamantium tanks filled with magic bubble wrap at $10 million dollars a copy maybe somebody should ask why they are shooting at us in the first place.

B-e-c-a-u-s-e-t-h-e-y-d-o-n-'-t-w-a-n-t-u-s-t-h-e-r-e.

“We have no evidence that this has ever been done in Iraq,� the senior military official said."

I would be skeptical if it was coming from an ordinary run-of-the-mill unnamed official, but since it's coming from a "senior" military unnamed official, it's gotta be true.

"...The days when any power can occupy a country that doesn't want them there are ending. An insurgency can fight a superpower to a stalemate with Popular Support + 5 gallon pails + explosives + copper disks + teh physics..."
Posted by: joejoejoe on February 16, 2007 at 1:35 PM

Excellent post. Sure enough, if you give insurgents enough time they are going to cook up their own means. As they say... "left to their own devices"

Anyone with access to a lathe can make these EFPs, so it's pretty likely they can make them in Iraq. When I first looked at the pictures, I guessed they would cost in the $20 range if made in the US. However, raw material costs in Iraq are probably a lot higher because of the war. Furthermore, electricity to run the lathe is probably at a premium. Given those difficulties, the Iraqi EFPs might cost a whopping $50 each (two months salary). So, it still might be cheaper to smuggle them in from Iran. But the ones shown in the pictures look like garage shop productions.

Have the mods finally gotten fed-up with Al?

Hey, those Iraq machine shop operators are just tryin to make a living while growing their economy.

You know, free enterprise, free market, unseen hand and all that...

Adam Smith is alive and well in Iraq !

"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." - I.F. Stone

SecularAnimist >"...The administration is in chaos, and they are just lying for the sake of lying: "What are we doing? Where are we going? Who knows! Nobody knows! So ... let's LIE!""

Well DUH !

So just when was it that this "administration" wasn`t in chaos & not lying ?

"Eventually, the truth will emerge. And when it does, this house of cards, built of deceit, will fall." - Robert C. Byrd

joejoejoe,

you fergit that the US can also use teh physics to microwave the Iraqis into submission....

Disuputo - treating the people you are there to 'liberate' like Hot Pockets is a probably not productive. If we could tell who the insurgents were we could shoot them with old fashioned bullets, no fancy microwave weapons required. If we CAN'T tell who the insurgents are and just use microwave weapons to disperse threatening crowds it's collective punishment and that's a war crime, not a liberation.

If we CAN'T tell who the insurgents are and just use microwave weapons to disperse threatening crowds it's collective punishment and that's a war crime, not a liberation. Posted by: joejoejoe on February 16, 2007 at 2:35 PM

Nonono, joejoejoe! Only bad guys commit war crimes. Good guys like G.W. commit collateral damage!

We just have to hook you up to one of those Clockwork Orange machines in front of a tapeloop of 24 until you understand.

The charge on those batteries on those batteries expired long ago. No one considers them a threat.
Posted by: anon on February 16, 2007 at 1:17 PM | PERMALINK

The charge on my cell-phone battery expired yesterday, so I plugged it into my charger, and it was good as new this morning.

I really doubt that expired batteries is going to be a problem for a determined insurgent.

The only reason that the mainstream media peddles this "oh those old stingers aren't a threat" bullshit, is because they want to have their cake and eat it too. They (GE) want to be able to profit from these sales, and still appear patriotic when these weapons are being used to kill American troops, and destroy hundreds of millions of dollars worth of American military hardware.

And if the batteries are really that hard to replace, it's entirely feasible that a determined insurgent could buy the Russian (or Chinese) equivalent on the "black" market - as last week's "Al Qaeda's greatest hits, CH-64 edition" video showed quite dramatically. If they start getting these things in any significant numbers, the result will be major screwage for America. But let's look on the bright side. GE and Halliburton made a buck!

Extradite Rumsfeld >"...But let's look on the bright side. GE and Halliburton made a buck!"

The famous unseen hand is in Iraq !

Free enterprise, free markets, Adama Al-Smith has appeared and will save the country. I just knew that Hidden Imam would show up sooner or later.

Praise be to [insert name of favorite SkyFather], we are all saved !!!

"The future will be a struggle between huge competing systems of psychopathology." - J. G. Ballard

"Aside from mimes, precious few things in this world are more terrifying than an evil monkey genius. Thus, many were surprised to learn that former Townsville resident Mojo Jojo was elected Executive Director of the National Republican Campaign Committee by a unanimous decision. An elated Jojo was quoted as saying “I’m bad, I’m evil, I’m Mojo Jojo.�"

Sounds like Tony Snow's revving up the Chewbacca Defense:

"You cannot deny ... "

Its seemed to me for a long time like the Bush Administration, as its support collapsed, was relying on robotic, poorly understood, application of some communication manual.

Then I found the book There's No Such Thing as Public Speaking, by Jeanette and Roy Henderson, who've apparently done a lot of work coaching Republicans in presentation skills, and I think I may have found that manual.

After the introductory rituals of establishing communication, the first substantive thing the Henderson's direct you do in your attempt to persuade is lead with an "irrefutable statement", from which you will proceed to introduce a "new idea" that the the audience (or, in their language, the Reactor) will be forced to accept based on the strength of and connection to the preceding "irrefutable statement".

The thing is, its pretty clear in the book that the key is that the statement must be intuitively irrefutable on its own from the perspective of the audience because it restates what they already know (or at least believe) to be irrefutably true, but instead Snow just asserts that the premise from which he launches of is undeniable.

The German Red Army Faction used EFPs, as did the IRA, etc, etc... The RAF's attack on Alfred Herrhausen in 1989 was especially impressive--at the time.

Good point bubba. I remember a tank being blown up by the IRA. Perhaps instead of blaming Iran, it is the IRA who is supplying Iraqi insurgents with these types of weapons. Besides, IRA is just missing an N.

I hesitate to point out that Cockburn usually writes for Counterpunch, which is not well regarded by the moderate and liberal community. I think many moderates and liberals think Counterpunch is a Stalinist rag. Probably those monthly articles by Nader.

Another Cockburn said, "If I had a rocket launcher...," but he is not a Counterpunch contributor.

I think it very important that both General Pace and Secretary Gates threw cold water on Baghdad military briefing.

Pace suggested the evidence was thin; Gates said he actually didn't know what was going on at the briefing.

Bush, however, remained adamant. He even learned a new word -- Quds -- which he probably will misapply as early as next week.

Is the Pentagon at last showing some backbone as regards the madmen in the White House? Or will the General Staff simply salute and march off to another catastrophe not of their making?

Wow, those things are scary. See
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec04/MN0407.html
where they discuss how to study the projectile portion:

"Recovering EFPs in a condition suitable for scientific analysis is not a trivial exercise. With a mass of 500 g or more, a velocity of 2000 m/s, and kinetic energy on the order of 1 MJ, these projectiles are capable of penetrating more than 10 cm of armor. Scientists used a softcatch apparatus to acquire projectile and material samples ... The softcatch apparatus used in this effort consisted of a long steel tube filled with sections of various materials, each section having a greater density than the preceding one. The first tube section was 12 ft long and filled with polystyrene. Following this section, in order, were 8 ft sections each of vermiculite, Celotexâ„¢, and water. The last tube section, 11 ft long, was filled with sand.

Way OT

Brojo I hesitate to point out that Cockburn usually...

Ah, I think too it was not-Bruce that wrote one of my favorite double take-downs. On a piece on Wellington, New Zealand he wrote something to the effect of: "a town so quiet that even the Canadians I met seemed somewhat interesting."

If you want to rely on the engineering prowess of Andrew Cockburn that's your choice -- there is substancial gap between Crazy Abdul's machine shop model that might take out a Humvee and a sophisticated accurately tooled version that can take out an M-1 tank. I think the later are produced in Iran.

"Bush learned a new word - Quds"

Oh my good lordie, now, he is going to take out cows.

"The future will be a struggle between huge competing systems of psychopathology." - J. G. Ballard
Posted by: daCascadian on February 16, 2007 at 3:21 PM

LOL And I thought that after the cold war ended and the '90's "peace dividend" was being spent we wouldn't have to live in a "Catch 22" world anymore. What a bummer.

Doc,

If you want to be a better writer, avoid cliches like the plague.

Doc,

If you want to be a better writer, avoid cliches like the plague.

Thanks for the advice, but you didn't follow your own advice :) http://www.westegg.com/cliche/search.cgi?query=the+plague

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