I have CFs throughout the house (whatever brand is cheap in a big pack at Costco). They are a little dim and don't work well with the dimmer switch (as noted). But the light is fine, I've never noticed any problem at all. No flicker, no pallor.

What I'm really waiting for is LEDs at a reasonable price and a real white light.

Kevin - I started using the inhouse Lowe's brand and even have some GE bulbs, and they all work fine. I recently put them by my front and back doors - lights I keep on all night. When cold, those bulbs take about a minute to reach full strength. But the interior ones I started using - on all but one halogen reading lamp - work just great. No flicker. I've gotten used to the light - its a different spectrum than incandescent, a bit cooler, but wholly unobjectionable.

And to think that at full strength, all of these bulbs will use less wattage than two incandescents! It makes it all look even better.

No experience with dimmers, though. I'd imagine that it would make a bulb flicker if not at full strength - the physics seem right.

I'm a big fan in theory, but I tried them (from Home Depot), and the quality of light was terrible. very cold. used them in an overhead light in the dining room, so eating dinner felt like having lunch in the office. I took them out, despite the guilt.

I've tried the compact flourescents. The only thing wrong with them is that they don't fit certain lamp fixtures. And by the way, ANYTHING is a good excuse for Kaus bashing. The sun came up this morning - that reminds me: screw Mickey.

What kind of dumbass takes advice about anything from insthack?
Moron mickey of course.

We have Sylvanias in our lamps and love 'em.

Although I should note that most will not fit in the tall, floor-based lamps (the ones that usually use those little halogen lights, but now use standard bulbs) because the base of the bulb is too large ... and a cut potato is the best way to get a broken CF out of one.

I have yet to notice the "flicker" effect.

Instapundit: not a good source of info on either politics OR compact fluorescents.

I've yet to find a CF that didn't say, right on the package, not for use with dimmers. I have heard there are such, but I don't have them. That said, I recently replaced many bulbs in my house with CFs. I find that that I disagree with the 'equivalent' number on the packaging- they all seem slightly, but only slightly, dimmer than the bulbs they replace. But I am lighting all three fixtures in my hallway with less electricity than one fixture consumed before.

Newer CFs, even the cheap ones from Home Depot, seem better made and have better color than even the best from a few years ago. There are now ones that are color-corrected to match what we tend to think of as 'normal' incandescent. All my old CFs have been rotated out to the basement, porch, and other utility areas.

I like klieg lights.

A lampshade can help give the light a warmer color. I tried that with some Ikea CFs and the warmth improved quite a bit (IMHO).

Cheap Compact Fluorescents are not compatible with dimmers, you gotta get 'cold cathode' : http://tinyurl.com/2a6756 (from bulbs dot com)

I use CFs wherever I can. I rent, and my current abode has a lot of dimmer switches, so that limits where I can put them. I take my CFs with me when I move.

Yes, they take a minute or so to warm up. Not a big issue.

They use less wattage than an incandencent for the same lumens, so I can use a brighter CF in a given fixture (ie, use a 40 watt CF in a fixture rated for 60 watts, putting out more light than a 60 watt bulb). Of course, you don't do that everywhere, just for places you need a lot of light.

I've been using CF bulbs around the house for a couple of years, replacing whatever burns out with them. I usually just buy what is on sale. Can't say I notice too much difference and I hate them all. Can't stand flourescent light at work and not happy about having it at home.

Only have one dimmer circuit in the house and haven't tried putting a CF bulb in there yet, so can't say anything about the flicker. But don't all flourescent lights flicker...and buzz?

What's Mickey's point in saying he uses Glenn's brand of light? Maybe it illuminates only one side but says it's unbiased.

I've been using compact flourscents for years. I would not use them in any sort of exposed-bulb overhead fixture, or in a lamp with a paper shade. But they work great with a glass shade. Somehow the glass makes the light pretty much as warm as any incandescent.

Another good option is, if you have a fixture that uses multiple bulbs, to replace 50% with CFs.

Question to group: Does the packaging say anything about mercury and special disposal requirements? I heard that some CF bulbs use mercury and should be disposed of carefully.

News Flash--My Phillips CF bulbs specifically say "DO NOT USE ON A DIMMER." Recessed and enclosed lights are also a no-no.

Doesn't anyone read the directions on consumer products???

BTW: In regular lights, they're terrific. We're slowly replacing all the regular bulbs with CFs, so long as they're not on a dimmer or recessed/enclosed.

My main gripe is that they are noisy, mine, at least, puts out a distinct hum.
They work well as outdoor lights, and seem to attract less bugs than incandescent ones.

I must be sensitive to the flicker. All of the incandescent bulbs replaced with flourescent drive me crazy. When my spouse is not looking I am going to replace one or two with incandescent.

In the early Eighties I worked in the kitchen of a steakhouse restaurant chain that installed flourescent bulbs throughout. The flicker was horrible, but no one else noticed.

I generally hate flourescents,but have tried the CFLs (Home Depot's store brand - soft light) and they seem to work fine. Start dim at first but warm up quickly. No flicker I can notice and soft light, very similar in color to incandescents. Except for outlets on dimmers, I replacing all the incandescents in the house with CFLs as they burn out. Even bought two outdoor floods (haven't used yet, as the old bulbs still work).

I used to design light dimmers. They work by turning the circuit on an off very quickly (120 times per second in the US). I'm surprised the compact flourescents even work at all on a dimmed circuit. I'm not surprised that they would flicker. In the future, we will dimmer CF compatible dimmers on the market. But you will have to replace all your dimmers if you want to use CF bulbs.

How can you deny us Mickey bashing? He's being an idiot as usual.

I use CFLs and have no problem with them. The light quality is just fine as long as you pick the right color spectrum. However, this is not hard as most CFLs have a color spectrum similar to that of incandescants. I use a much whiter CFL in my bathroom for that antiseptic look. :) I also like CFLs because I can get a 150w equivalent which I use in my unfinished basement.

A few things to know about CFLs:

1) Don't put CFLs in fixtures that you turn on and off a lot, or have on for only short periods (less than 5 minutes), such as in closets or hallways. You won't get much benefit out of a CFL in these situations because CFLs are less efficient when cold, and because the short cycle reduces their lifespan.

2) Don't put CFLs in enclosed ceiling fixtures unless the CFL is rated for higher temperatures. Higher temps reduce the lifespan of a standard CFL. Look at the packaging for specifics.

3) Don't use with dimmers unless the CFL is rated for use with dimmers.

Also, the older circular fluorescent adaptors really suck. Don't confuse them with the newer CFLs.

I'ved used CFL almost exclusively in my home, with no flicker problems, for something like 6-7 years. Variety of brands, no problems.

Most specifically state that they can't be used with dimmers, though I think I've recently seen a handful that specifically said they could be used with dimmers.

Both with regular CFL bulbs in lamps or overheads installations and with CFL spotlights in recessed lighting, I haven't had problems with the light quality (though they aren't quite as nice as the halogens they replaced in the recessed lighting in our new house), using the bare bulbs for light (when, e.g., a shade was broken) was worse than doing the same with an incandescent bulb, but that's not a normal condition.

Also, I use a full-spectrum flourescent desk lamp: better light than any incadescent lamp I've ever seen.

I've also noted that, besides the super expensive full-spectrum desk lamps, Home Depot, at least, is now carrying premium CFLs that are only slightly more expensive than regular CFLs that supposedly have better light quality, but I haven't gotten around to trying them. Also, more smaller CFLs for specialized fixtures than I used to be able to find.

I love my CFs from Philips! They are a very warm, pleasant light that doesn't strain the eyes. Indeed, I prefer to read in the living room under the CFs than in my bed where I have an incandescent bulb.

Mr. Kaus is somewhat correct about the "flickering" effect of a flourescent bulb. The defective ones are quite difficult to use and if you have frequent power outages or power surges, they will cause the bulb to flicker more sporadically. The bulb that I was using in the recreation room flickered so much one evening, I rolled out of my chair and had a mild spastic attack, not unlike an epileptic fit. I bit my tongue, spilled wine on my shirt, and a bowl of popcorn went sailing across the carpet.

Avoid these evil bulbs if you can.

Does the packaging say anything about mercury and special disposal requirements?

IIRC, mercury was phased out of fluorescents a while back. On the traditional long ones (like in offices) you can tell the difference because the non-merc ones have a green strip on the end.

Didn't notice any warnings on the CFs.

I have several identical overhead fixtures. The ones that are on a dimmer switch have an incandescent bulb, while the others have CFs. There is absolutely no way to tell the difference. The only bad CF bulbs that I have had were hideous but really cheap Ikea bulbs. Otherwise I have a mixture of Sunbeam, Sylvania, and Philips bulbs. I also have Philips circline fluorescents in the outdoor fixtures. I had to replace the cheesy Chinese-made bulbs that came with fixture because those were hideous. Dimmable CFs are available from www.bulbs.com as well as 3-way CFs and various exotic sizes.

CF bulbs are much better than they were a few years ago.

My main gripe is that they are noisy, mine, at least, puts out a distinct hum.

The first CFLs I got ~2000 sometimes had that problem (but often you could tap the bulb and it would stop humming for a while), especially as they got older. The new ones we've gotten since we moved to a house that was all set up for recessed floods don't, at least not yet.

remember when ali said: " i am so fast i can turn the lights off and be in bed before it is dark."

well, these lights come on so slowly i can turn them on in the kitchen and have my cereal before it is light.

I have CFs in all but one lamp in my condo. The one with which I can't use CFs has a dimmer (and had the flicker problem). It just died, so I'll be getting a non-dimmer lamp to replace it.

Light is very nice, though you need to let the bulbs warm up before they reach full brightness. And you can get "warmer" or "cooler" bulbs depending on what kind of light you like.

As with nearly everything these days, you can get pretty much whatever warmth, brightness, or shape of CF you want if you do a simple internet search. For instance, I have globe CFs (with candelabra bases) in my bathroom. Those have operated quite well for almost a year. The incandescents I used to use only lasted a month or 2 at best.

I use CFLs in about 75% of the fixtures in my house. I don't have any problems or concerns. They are subsidized in Sacramento by the local public electrical utility, so they are cheap (a couple of dollars per 40W equivalent bulb. I change bulbs so infrequently I almost forget that I used to buy incandescents at the grocery store. CFLs don't work with dimmers unless they are specifically designed for the application.

As others say, if you have a dimmer circuit (even if you only use it at full on or off) you have to get special, more expensive, less available bulbs. Presumably this will be remedied in a couple years as the market catches up.
I use all CFLs except for 4 recessed dimmer lights, 2 lights on our stove that are off-low-high switched, and 5 candelabra lights (I actually found E11 base dimmable bulbs but they were only 15W equivalent- if they had 40W I'd buy them, but these things barely gave any light.) Outside ones do take a while to warm up when it's cold out. I also made the mistake of getting a "daylight" bulb for the living room, that is not what you want- in general get the warmest color (lowest temperature equivalent) they offer if it's for indoor use.
Also, a couple (~5%) did end up buzzing after some use- I just replaced them and haven't had problems, I think there are just some bum bulbs in the production process, just like incandescents.

What bugs me is that they don't fit into small light fixtures like the ones in my hallways. Plus I really hate it when people spell fluorescent "flourescent". Other than that, I don't mind them too much--the flicker goes away after a few minutes, usually.

jdwill, ALL compact fluorscents use appreciable amounts of mercury, same as tradtional fluorescent tubes, which must be handled as hazardous waste.

Go ahead and save a few kilowatts, but how many people have the discipline to properly store old and defective bulbs (I have had several go bad) to put them in the hazardous waste stream? My locality collects hazardous waste one or two days a year at a collection center.

What will happen is widespread groundwater contamination by mercury as people have household accidents or put them in landfills.

Their fevered proponents fail to mention, or plan for, lifecycle and wastestream management, proving once again that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

My landlord just put those expensive CFs in the hallway fixtures. The tenants stole them all, now the halls are completely dark.

I recently bought Sylvania and Lowe's house brand compact
fluorescent bulbs. The brightness is fine after a ~2 minute
warmup period. I compared "60 W" and "100 W" CF's
with the corresponding incandescent bulbs and found
that the CF's were only a little dimmer. There was no
observable flicker.

The color balance is more than acceptable.
(I bought one of these a year ago and rejected it because the
color was wrong...the new ones are much, much better).

These bulbs should not be used with dimmers. They have
a fair amount of electronics in the base that don't work
well with dimmers. Using them that way can result in
premature failure.

I recently bought Sylvania and Lowe's house brand compact
fluorescent bulbs. The brightness is fine after a ~2 minute
warmup period. I compared "60 W" and "100 W" CF's
with the corresponding incandescent bulbs and found
that the CF's were only a little dimmer. There was no
observable flicker.

The color balance is more than acceptable.
(I bought one of these a year ago and rejected it because the
color was wrong...the new ones are much, much better).

These bulbs should not be used with dimmers. They have
a fair amount of electronics in the base that don't work
well with dimmers. Using them that way can result in
premature failure.

Are these the spiral type of bulbs? If so, I love 'em. I think the light they give is fine. I've had no problem with flicker (though I don't have any dimmers), and they freaking last forever.

"I would not use them in any sort of exposed-bulb overhead fixture, or in a lamp with a paper shade."

That's all I have in my house.

I don't know about the compact bulbs, but the traditional tubes cycle at 60 hertz. that's presumably below the 'refresh rate' of the human eye, but when my computer monitor is set at 60, it drives me batty and I have to change it to at least 72. Even if you can't consciously notice a flicker, you may be subliminally effected by it. Fluorescent lighting has long been known as a source of workplace stress.

I use all incandescents in my office and people tend to want to come in and sit a spell. Maybe it's my sparkling personality, but I think it's the steady yellow lighting and the soothy desktop fountain.

The Prairie Angel

I have used CFL's for the better part of a decade. I have never had a problem with them and they last a lot longer than incandescents, if they are brand-name like Sylavania, Phillips or GE. I did buy a card of the cheapest ones once, and they did flicker and hum, and it was decidedly not worth the buck I saved.

too lazy to read all the advise, but-RTFM!! do not use CLFs connected to a dimmer, damit!

Yeah, I have fluorescents. They're fine. They don't seem to flicker at all. They're GE.

They took a little time after first being used to give the full output of light, though, besides the regular amount of time they take to warm up. They seem to warm up quicker after you've used them a few times.

I was discussing this with a co-worker years ago, before I ever switched, and opining about how I don't like fluorescent light (I guess it depends on the context- sometimes it's alright and sometimes I don't like it - like I never thought I'd like it for my home). He recommended halogens, which I totally forgot, and just remembered when I went to buy the fluorescents. I was tempted to get the halogens because I want the regular light, but the fluorescents are so much cheaper.

Anyway, the fluorescents turned out to be not too different from regular bulbs, especially after warming up/ getting used to them. I saved the regular bulbs and I'll put them in when we have company I guess.

Second the Ikea bulbs- they're only a couple bucks, but they suck.

> they all seem slightly, but only slightly,
> dimmer than the bulbs they replace.

I have to agree with Kevin that this whole topic is really weird. I would very much like to be an earth-toned, earth-friendly kinda guy and use CFs everywhere in my house. But I find that they are dim, flicker (no dimmers in my house), and produce very ugly light. I have tried 6-7 brands with the same result. People I trust tell me this isn't the case for them, but when I try the brand they like I get weird-colored flicker.

As a result I have CFs in the basement, and a few paired with an incandescent in hard-to-reach dual fixtures, but I can't use them anywhere else.

Cranky

I've got a house full of them, and I love them. Keep them off dimmer circuits and there's no flicker. They cost nothing to run, and last for years. I sometimes have to use specialty incandescent bulbs (like for outdoor bug lights or desk lamps) but other than that, I don't buy anything else.

I have been converting the house to CF over the last 3 years. In general I have no problem with them. I have had a couple give out on me (surprising since they are supposed to last 5 years).

My main observation is that unlike a regular they take time to come to full brightness. Sometimes this is good (for example at night it is not quite as hard on your eyes), but usually I find it bad. If you have a place where you need lots of light right away stick with a regular. If not go CF!

Yes.

If you go out and buy the cheapest CF bulbs available on the market, you get:

- CF bulbs that do not last long.
- CF bulbs that put out objectionable color, or flicker.
- CF bulbs that do not work on a dimmer.

Two good resources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp

http://members.misty.com/don/cfx.html

We use a mixture of CF's and traditional bulbs. Specifically, we don't use CF's with dimmers, this is not a good idea.

www.samefacts.com/archives/energy_and_environment_/2007/01/walmart_greening_up.php

www.samefacts.com/archives/energy_and_environment_/2007/01/cfls_again_revised_10am_pst_sun.php

excellent discussion above.

www.janegalt.net/archives/009578.html

worth reading through the comments.

The 'listed' lighting ratings aren't enough, usually, you need to 'overspec' ie use the 100W rating of CF for the 60W incandescent.

They don't work with dimmer switches. Period.

Offtopic, but not really, I didn't always agree with her, but LA Blogger Cathy Seipp is apparently in the hospital for the last time....

Every package of compact flourescents I've ever seen tells you not to use them with dimmers. Most do so on both sides? Is this so hard?

We use them in most of the fixtures and lamps in our house and they work fine. They are used commonly in the Third World country where my wife is from. By the way there are more important issues here than the aesthetics of the light quality, even though that is, as I said, fine. If every home and business replaced their conventional bulbs with compact flourescents the impact on electricity bills and energy use would be large.

There's also the atmosphere, but no need to dwell on that here.

Yes, some do contain mercury. We take them to our hardware store for disposal along with our used batteries. They wear out so infrequently this is not a big deal. As my grandfather used to say, "If that's the biggest problem you had today you've had a pretty good day."

We get ours at Costco by the way. That's both the bare bulbs and the enclosed spots. I've seen regular compact flourescent bulbs in glass covers that make them look just like incadescents. My guess is you'd have to be pretty discerning to notice much difference in everyday use.

I use MaxLite Micromax-Spirals, 25W, Warm White (no dimmers). They take a few seconds to warm up (the advertising claim to the contrary notwithstanding), but I can't discern any flicker, and the quality of the light is fine. I'm very happy with them.

MaxLite's Web site lists a bulb supposedly suitable for use with dimmer switches, but I haven't tried it.

These bulbs do contain mercury, though.

We use fluorescents in most of the fixtures in the house. We don't have dimmers, so we don't observe any flickering.

The only real problem we ran into was the long warm-up time for Sylvania bulbs - *several minutes* to warm up to a reasonable brightness). Lowe's house brand bulbs warmed up much quicker and thus were acceptable to the rest of the family).

No time to read this entire thread, so my apologies if I'm just repeating what someone upstream has said .... but, CF's are NEVER supposed to be put in a circuit with a dimmer switch on it. I suppose there might be a brand/model out there that is specifically designed for that, but if so I've never seen it. Dimmer switches will kill the bulbs far before their normal life expectancy, and in any case they cause awful flickering.

Seems like I have a couple of brands of CFs in my house -- Feit, for one. Not the best brands, necessarily, but they've been reliable, they do not flicker, and they give an excellent, warm quality of light (not harsh, like old traditional tube fluorescents). Once I replaced all of them in my house that I could -- pretty much, every bulb in the house except one circuit on a dimmer and the two porch lamps -- I noticed an immediate drop in my electric bill of about $4-$5 a month. It really surprised (and pleased) me.

Y'all probably saw this back in January, but here it is anyway:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/weekinreview/07hamilton.html?ex=1325826000&en=294a235a5bb5c9ca&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Basic take-away is that rooms/objects look fine to most people in CF light, but people actually look somewhat unhealthy. Reason is that CF light is more towards the blue end of the spectrum than the "warm" red end where incandescent light falls.

- Dave

What will happen is widespread groundwater contamination by mercury as people have household accidents or put them in landfills.. . .
Posted by: Seppo on March 21, 2007 at 3:18 PM | PERMALINK

The electricity they save means less mercury in the environment because less coal is burned. There was a reputable study done on this a few years back. Seriously check out the wikipedia article on CF bulbs.

I have used CFLs for many years, first in just a few lamps and just recently in all but the halogen fixtures. The early bulbs did have poor light quality but the more recent bulbs (Home Depot, not sure of the brand) after the initial warm up period are quite good. I now have installed in the outdoor fixtures, the ceiling fans with the frosted globe covers.

I recently purchased special dimmer CFLs for the dimmer fixtures and there is no flicker. They are more expensive (available online for $7-15 each although I found mine on ebay for $5 each) but good light quality.

Given the energy and energy cost savings, marginally worse light quality is not too much to sacrifice. My children can not tell the difference so the whining hasn't kicked in.

I've been using them for 2-3 years; here's some wisdom:
1) www.topbulb.com has some 100 different spiral CFL bulbs, ranging from 2 watts (8 watt equivalent for an always on socket) to 105 watts (400 watt equivalent), dimmable, non-dimmable, black light,
three-ways, etc.etc. They also have 25 different CFL with a cover so they look like incandescents, 30 CFLs that are reflector bulbs, even candelabrum base CFLs
2) An advantage of CFL is to put a LOT more brightness bulb where the fixture is wattage-limited....ex: you have a 60 watt max fixture that's the only light in a garage...put in a 60 watt CFL and you'll get 240 watts worth of light.
3) They aren't always happy with solid state timers...I had solid state timer switches on the closet lights...worked with incandescents, but with CFL, the CFLs would blink intermittently when the switch was 'off'. I replaced them :( with spring-wound timers.
4) The common motion-sensing switching that you might use ( in garages, basement, etc) don't work with CFLs. Leviton has a commercial grade motion-sensing swtich with a relay that works fine, tho it costs $60, the ODS10.

I've cut my electric bill by 30%

Kevin, what's next, a post about what underarm deoderants work best?? Come on, there's too much going on right now to waste a post on such an inconsequential subject. Leave it for the pathetic Mickey Kauses of the world and keep your focus on Bu$hGate.

Have the government force you to replace a cheap bulb with one we make that costs a lot more? Works for us.

Suckers.

"Dimmer switches" are silicon-controlled rectifiers (SCRs), which take the sinusoidal voltage coming out of the house power, turn the negative-going half-waves "upside down", so that you have a train of "camel humps" as the voltage profile, then use a variable-voltage diode clamp to shunt the voltage to zero at an adjustable level that you control with the knob. AC voltage in houses is 60 cycles per second, hence 17 milliseconds per full wave, so the SCR is firing at 120 cycles per second.

Incandescent lights, because they are hot metal filaments, have enough heat capacity that they do not cool off during the 8 milliseconds or so per half-cycle that the voltage gets clamped off, so their light stays perceptibly steady.

Fluorescent lights are a tenuous gas (1/1000 of an atmosphere of mercury vapor) and so have basically nil as a heat capacity. And the relaxation rate of atomic transitions is sub-microsecond, so when the SCR clamps the voltage to zero, a CFL will follow in its light output to zero essentially instantaneously. So, while sub-10 ms is technically faster than the human "persistence of vision" criterion, it's true that most folks can sense a flicker.

It's not good for the CFL to run it with a dimmer switch as well, because the lamp has to re-establish electrical breakdown of the gas every time the voltage begins to ramp up again.

Soooo...NEVER use a CFL with a dimmer switch. And as for the light quality, here's a little trick I use: when replacing a say 60W incandescent, don't get the "60W equivalent light output" CFL, get the next higher light output model. It'll still be less than 40% of the electricity usage of the old incandescent, but it'll look brighter, even at startup.

> Their fevered proponents fail to mention,
> or plan for, lifecycle and wastestream
> management, proving once again that there
> is no such thing as a free lunch.'

seppo,
I noticed you conveniently left out the mercury pumped into the atmosphere by the burning of coal, which is a significant amount. CFs = less electricity = less coal burned = less mercury deposited. That has to be taken into account as well as the mercury in the CFs.

Just an oversight I am sure ;-)

Cranky

I purchased a fairly decent torchiere, stainless steel, fluorescent fixture last year to replace its fire starting halogen brother. Circular CF with a dimmer.

It died fairly recently and will not start with replacement bulbs. Unfortunately, the ballast is electronic as is the dimmer and both are basically irreparable. I'm about to rip out the guts and re-install a simpler version, possibly incandescent. So much for green.

I replaced all of my bulbs about 15 years ago. They were pretty expensive at that time, but I'd read an article saying what a good idea it was. Some are still going. In fact quite a few are still going. I actually wrote the date on them when I installed them. They last longer than what is being claimed. They don't flicker. They work just fine.

Also, they do take a big pop of electricity to get started, then they use much, much less than the incandescent bulb. If you use a CF bulb in a fixture that is only turned on briefly you won't save much energy and the bulb won't last as long. For that reason I have an incandescent bulb in my bedroom closet since I usually flip it on, grab something, and flip it off. There wouldn't be much advantage to using an expensive CF bulb in that context.

I had one explode a few years back. I put it in a hallway (enclosed) fixture where regular bulbs constantly burned out. The package merely said not to use it in a wet area like the bathroom. I guess the enclosed fixture wasn't a good idea, but luckily it contained the blast.

PS

I don't think we have a dimmer though, whatever that is.

I kept the regular lights in the bathroom just because it's so much better to have regular light in there, but we have a lot of lights in the house so we still save money.

I've got CFs throughout our house and they're fine. I don't put them on dimmer circuits, but I don't really use dimmers all that much. I've been using CFs for a LONG time and they've gotten much better and brighter, especially once they've been on for a minute or so.

I swapped out 750W of outside floodlights for the 23W CF versions and they're fantastic. They light up more evenly, appear brighter, and now I'm using 183W when they're all on. Sure - they turn this wild shade of purple when it's cold and they turn on, but they warm up fast enough and are plenty bright.

I even got the wife to go along with swapping out the 40W frosted globes in the bathroom with the new CF versions - they light more evenly - she really likes them.

For dimmable CFLs see http://www.1000bulbs.com/category.php?category=544

I hate the quality of fluorescent compared to incandescent, but I use these bulbs in all my ceiling fixtures that use more than 1 bulb. I use 1-2 compact fluorescents with 1 incandescent. I get the power savings and hardly notice the difference in the quality of the light. Sure, it would be better if they were all fluorescents, but this seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

GE makes special ones that are dimmable. My husband special ordered them for our kitchen. They were about $10 a peice which was bout 2x the price of the regular dimmable flood lights we used.

As for quality, when on using the dimmer they are not as bright as the regular ones however on full they are significantly brighter.

I've used a variety of them over the years for lights I keep on all of the time. Same problems as everyone else. However, as they advertise how long they last, I did take to putting installation dates on them just to see. I had one that was on 24/7 for 5 straight years!

Maybe I should revisit CFs. When I tried them say 5 years ago I was very disappointed in the light output. They were very dim and there was NO way the CF rated to replace a 100W incandescent put out the same amount of light. It seemed to put out the equivalent of maybe 60W incandescent.

Also if you had light fixtures with shades that attach to the bulb you were out of luck. Also they didn't fit into fixtures with small glass enclosures.

I'm fairly green but I also want good lighting around the house. I don't want my home looking like the typically dimly lit hotel room.

I have BIG hopes for LEDs.

Mercury: I read on GE's website that the amount of mercury in these bulbs is almost negligable, and you would have to throw out thousands or something like that to equal one mercury thermometer. That said, yeah, try to dispose of properly, but compared to the amount of greenhouse gas that is produced to burn the equivalent of regular bulbs, even with the mercury, this is a nobrainer. Go with CFs. Complaining about the mercury and saying you'd go with regular bulbs is like straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

I can't believe there were 73 comments on this in 45 minutes. We're all experts on fluorescent lights, it seems.

There should be no excuse for people complaining about dim CF bulbs! I got one that is almost too bright! There are some that are 200W equivalent spots.

They take 1 min to fully warm up, but they have zero flicker (if they do they have a crummy "ballast" and you should dispose of it). You can also look on the box can figure out what color they are going to be. Warm "yellow" or cool "blue." I used to like yellow but now I like blue once they are all changed. It feels more like natural light than normal bulbs. I saw my electric bill drop like a rock too.

I have BIG hopes for LEDs.

You and my husband both. All of our TV's are LED. His computer monitor is LED (I'm not giving up my 19" with the heated kitty-shelf until it dies a natural death) - everything he can get LED he does get LED. He's the EE, so I defer to his expertise.

Just put one in last month. I'd bought it before reading about the mercury problem. This morning is started making a high-pitched whining noise when turned on. If it keeps up, its coming out.

NEWS FLASH: READ THE INSTRUCTIONS. Every package & bulb I have seen has said "not for use with dimmers"
This has always been true of any fluorescent bulbs of which I am aware.

Lights Of America: WalMart house brand. Absolutely a WORST-BUY in any bulb type. They burn out in a hurry. My new fangled fluorescent burned out in less than 6 months. What good is a guarantee when you don't save the foot long WalMart receipts?

GE: No Problem with flickering, about a 2 second delay when starting, & color OK. I have had 3 in use for about a year.

Some fixtures they will not fit into due to being too large near the base. Different color values will become available as their popularity grows, just as tube types are today. I think I have seen some which are shaped & sized to standard bulb sizes & configurations.

I will be buying more, but will stick with the name brands. Bottom line: I like them.

You'd have to be a fucking nerd and a loser not to get fluorescent lights at this point, though.

How about correcting your spelling, Kevin Drum?

Fluorescent.

Yup, dimmers are a problem. Recessed lights, too. Which means I can't use them for 80% of my lighting. But for the other 20%, they're just fine. Unfortunately, some of those lights get turned on and off more than is recommended for CFs, so I’m probably not saving as much electricity as they promise either. But hey, it’s something.

CF bulbs vary greatly in quality. Some have a very pronounced warm-up period, some start right up at nearly full brightness. Some last forever in harsh environments, some die young when treated gently. Probably buying the very very very cheapest available isn't such a good idea.

I *like* white light. I buy "daylight" spectrum bulbs when I can, and I much prefer the white light to the very yellow light from incandescents. I must be some sort of freak.... That said, most of the ones that try to simulate nasty yellow incandescent light seem to me to do so very well. I have yet to encounter discernable flicker, though I'm plenty sensitive to old CRT monitors at too-low refresh rate. Some of the cheap ones, especially as they age, do hum a bit.

Someone asked about mercury: In Oakland, CA, it's now illegal to put CF bulbs in the regular trash. They have to be disposed of at the haz waste dropoff or any store that collects them. (If anyone lives in Alameda County and doesn't know about the Haz Waste dropoff place, check it out! It's free and you can get rid of all those scary cans in the basement.)

Brat: Doesn't anyone read the directions on consumer products???

As with computer manuals, reading the directions is giving up.

As it happens I know a bit from my job.

Flourescent bulbs used to flicker at power line frequency (60hz in US) because the ballasts (electronics used to start and drive the lamp)were unsophisticated and the light followed the sine wave shape of the power line.

For quite a few years now flourescent tubes, and ALL CF lamps, use electronic ballasts that have essentially no flicker. Using high speed video you can film at 1000 frames per second under a CF lamps and the illumination will be steady. So Mickey is doing something wrong, no surprise there. As many folks have pointed out maybe he is on a circuit with a dimmer.

Color quality is measured on a scale called CRI (color rendering index). This scale measures how evenly all colors are represented in the light. It is NOT the same as color temperature. Both daylight (color temp 5600K) and incandescent (2800K) bulbs have perfect cri scores of 100. This becaise they are both balck-body radiation sources, which have very smooth spectral curves.

Generally speaking, a cri of 65 can be perceived as 'white', but will not render color well. At cri 85+ color rendering is reasonably good to the eye. CRI of 90+ is good enough so that it is used by Hollywood.

Flourescent bulbs are available that are cri 90+, but they are expensive, and they aren't CF bulbs.

A good CF will have a cri of 80 - 85. http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Spec%20Sheets/Philips%20CFL%20Tornado.htm shows the spectral curve for a good (cri 83) Philips CF (lower right hand corner). It is very spiky.

http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Spec%20Sheets/Sylvania%20BA12000.htm shows the much smoother curve of a CRI 95 metal halide bulb used in Hollywood.

IMHO the government should mandate that CF bulbs be marked with color temperature AND cri, just like tires have heat and treadwear ratings. It would then let the customer know what they are buying. I personally use CF bulbs at homer because they save energy, but I can tell the light is inferior to incandescent. I would love a 4000K (not too warm or cool) cri 90+ CF, but I have never seen one.

Actually the longer initial warm-up period I experience might just be attributable to the cold, as one of the first comments stated, because I walked home with them and put them in right away when I got home.

I got the cheap Home Depot CF's over a year ago, and they've been great. They were a very good deal, too -- something like 10 bulbs for $10, and so far I've only had to replace maybe two of them.

However, if you want to use CF's with a dimmer switch, you need to get a special kind, and I think they're considerably more expensive. But as I say, the last time I got bulbs was more than a year ago, so maybe my info is dated.

I bought 2700K dimmable bulbs made by TCP, both the lamp and 3.5" floodlight kind, from 1000bulbs.com. The 2700k bulbs give off a warmer cast -- the difference is unnoticeable in lamps and only slightly noticeable with the canned lights.

I only replaced the bulbs that tend to be used for long periods of time, and I mix both the incandescent and CFL lights in frequently-used rooms so that if I need to have a light on immediately, I turn on the incandescents for a short time while the CFL bulbs warm up.

We have several, but the light seems to lack presence or something.

And I tried one in the bedroom but when you turn it off it leaves this ghostly afterglow that lasts an hour or more and the eye inevitably tracks right to it and it simply ends up actually spooky.

My electrician recently installed a dimmer switch for me and he specifically said not to use a CFC bulb with it.

Never used fluorescents with dimmers.

The light is slight lower quality, so if I'm replacing a 40 watt bulb, I will use a 60 watt equivalent (about 15W), and if I'm repacing a 60 watt bulb I'll I'll use an 80 watt equivalent (about 20W).

"Plus I really hate it when people spell fluorescent "flourescent".
scribo"

No one, least of all Kevin, seems to have noticed. Annoys me too (though I frequently type it wrong in the first instance myself.)

Another good option is, if you have a fixture that uses multiple bulbs, to replace 50% with CFs.
Posted by: RFM

A CF rated 60-watts is not a bright as an incandescent rated 60-watts. Therefore, go up to 75-watts in the CF. You get more light (if needed) and still save electricity.

The better new CFs (not all are created equal) provide better light than the bulbs from years past. However, they still aren't a warm as incandescents. This is a problem in the winter in the norther tier of this fine country.

http://www.terrapass.com/terrablog/posts/000153.html

This site give great information on CFs in general and "dimmables" in particular.

I tried GE and Osram (Sylvania) CFs and threw them out after a few days to go back to good old incandescent bulbs. I positively hate the quality of the light.

I actually borrowed a diffraction grating to a teacher friend of mine and took a look at what light those CFs put out and hurgh, it does suck. A mash of very narrow wavelengths so it sorta looks like white except it’s not white at all. Incandescent bulbs don’t have a flat spectrum either but at least, it is continuous.

So, I’m waiting for white LEDs with a decent spectrum and an acceptable price. No there yet but at least more promising than anything that can be achieved with fluorescence.

kevin,

I'm all for better lighting solutions but CFL as marketed by WallMart are just ticking time bombs. The Mecury content is just waiting for widespread distribution in to world-wide ground water supplies.

Just think to yourself how many broken light bulbs you have seen lying around in your life, imagine everyone of them leaching mercury. See a problem yet?

LEDs are the better lighting solution.

I'm sorry - I tried, I REALLY did - tried three or four different brands of CFs, never used a dimmer, gave myself days to get used to it - and I just can't STAND the light quality!

The spectrum, or the tint, or whatever, - I REALLY can't abide it. SO I donated the CFs to the Salvation army, put back the Incandescents, became a nazi about turning OFF every light I wasn't using.

And I try to drive less.

Sure, they're more expensive, but I love that incredible shrinking electric bill!

We've used Sylvania and GE and Phillips, all fine. The humming goes away after about a minute as the bulb achieves "full power."

I'm fairly myopic, but can read for hours with a "curly" 100-watt fluorescent bulb. They seem to look better in smaller rooms; in our large home library, the light is a bit ghostly.

We have the inexpensive Brite Effects ones available at Lowes. They work just as they should. We also put some of the CF that have a round glass bulb in our ceiling fans. They're OK. They put out less light than the standard twisted CFs.

Modern CFL's (even most cheap ones) use switching power supplies that run at 40,000Hz or more -- they simply do not flicker if given steady current. But using this sort of power supply makes them incompatible with dimmers and some other electronic controls, like movement or light sensors. They'll not only flicker, but they could ruin the dimmer/controller as well as themselves. But otherwise, if it flickers, it's defective.

There are dimmable CFL's which can be dimmed down to about 20% -- less than that and they'll flicker or even go out. They generally cost more and are harder to find (though pretty easy to find on-line). But they generally work fine; I've tried Greenlite, Westinghouse, and TCP, and there are others.

CFL's are rated with a "color rendering index" or CRI. Cheap bulbs have CRI's of about 80 (the scale runs to 100); you can get 90 or better if you want to pay for it (once again, look on-line). The higher the number, the closer the light is to a black-body source at the specified color temperature. And, of course, the latter varies from 2700K for incandescent replacement to 11000K or so for "skylight" bulbs.

We found a bunch of off-brand CFLs at 6/$10 for the 60W replacements and 4/$10 for the 100W, and we've been switching as the old ones burn out. One of the 60W CFLs has already died, which I assume can be chalked up to generic product quality. Other than that, I can't complain. I'm very sensitive to flicker and have noticed nothing (we also have no dimmer switches), but my wife thinks they take a few minutes to warm up in the morning, starting at maybe 75% of full light when you first turn them on. When we run out of the generics I'll probably buy some name brand ones to replace the handful of regular bulbs that are left.

I like them. They save me money on my electric bill. Now I can make the payments on my Suburban.

dcwp on March 21, 2007 at 3:01 PM

ditto.

I started buying them one at a time about 15 years ago. The light is slightly pink compared to the slightly orange of incandescents. Some electric companies subsidize them, so you should look to see if yours does. When you buy them, check the lumen rating, in addition to the nominal wattage equivalence. Don't be afraid to experiment -- it's in a good cause. Think of what your forebears did to get you here!

CF's are great.

They do not work well on switches with dimmers because a dimmer switch, even when at full power, ever so slightly varies the amount of electricity going into the bulb. With incandescents that is fine because they generate light by heating up. The tungsten filament in an incandescent is a deliberately poor conductor of electricity so the friction created generates heat and light, mostly heat.

CFs work differently. A minimum amount of electricity is necessary to excite the electrons in the florescent gas. If you do not have that minimum amount of electricity the electrons do not bounce around correctly and return to their normal orbits. Whereas with incandescents, if you have less electricity you just end up with less friction and commensurately less light.

I have one CF from college that still works. it is going on 20 years old. These days they compact them even more and put them inside a flood light case with a tinted cover and you get the same light as an incandescent. I swear by them. You get used to not having a dimmer. Besides, the only time I used dimmers was for mood lighting. I only need mood lighting if I am hosting a dinner party or trying to score. Since I am married with kids, my chances of doing either are slim to none.

I have been replacing my burnt-out incandescent bulbs with Sylvania CFLs. No flicker. The light is fine.

People who don't like the color of fluorescent light just need to shop around a little bit. My local home store, Menard's, has a display with all of the different CFLs lit and some are quite warm. I didn't even pay attention to color temp when I bought my bulbs and they look fine in every room of the house. I honestly can't tell the difference from incandescent.

I have found that CFLs will not work in extreme cold. I had one in my garage and it burnt out within a few seconds of turning it on. In that instance it was -20F outside. I would be curious to figure out what the practical minimum temperature is, but that would be an expensive experiment and it's not like I'm going to seasonally change the bulbs anyway.

tomtom's explanation of the Color Rendering Index at 4:01 completely explains my impression of cfl light lacking 'presence'.

As with computer manuals, reading the directions is giving up.

God, that is so true!

Someone above mentioned that fluorescent bulbs work by turning on and off 120 times per second.

My question is, in a house with older wiring where the current flow might not be as smooth we'd like, can this exaggerate the hiccups of turning on and off and so causing a flicker?

LEDs are the better lighting solution.

Sure, if price is no constraint, but last I looked they were over $100/bulb.

The only ones that put out a decent quality of light are the full spectrums, and the little curlies don't come in that type.

They are OK, but I still prefer the quality of incandescent light to any standard fluorescent. OTOH, they last a lot better, especially in the sockets that seem to eat bulbs by the gross.

In the 15 or so years that I have been buying the CFs, the warm-up time of the bulbs has gotten shorter.

As others have said already, it is quite worthwhile, environmentally, to invest in CFs instead of more electrical generation capacity: less total pollution of all kinds.

I have started buying full-spectrum LEDs, but only for specialty purposes, like nite-lites. As soon as I see the "light equivalent" of 100W incandescents, I'll but some to see how they work out.

The flickering and quality of light produced by flourescent bulbs can be very uncomfortable, even to the extent of bordering on painful for people on the autism spectrum. I'm not saying they're a bad idea in general, but that isa real drawback for some people.

Wow ... guess I was wrong about the mercury issue (not the first time, not the first issue). My fault.

So ... since a CF broke in our floor lamp and got all over the place as I was trying to remove it, is my kid going to grow a third eyeball?

Seriously, though, how worried should I be about that?

I have replaced almost all of the lightbulbs in my house with CFLs. None of my lights are connected to dimmers, and I believe there is a waringing right on the CFL box that tells you not to connect it to a dimmer switch. Now I am enjjoying sub $150 per month electric bills, while my neighbors are complaining about their plus $250 bills. And the light quality is just fine. I do have one complaint, however. The life-span for CFLs does not meet the hype. My CFLs burn out regularly just like incandescent bulbs. Still worth the extra expense, though.

I've replace every bulb in my apartment with CF bulbs and it hasn't bothered me, except when I need to do really close up work. Then I simply augment with another light source.

I don't do this out of any heartfelt green attitude. I do it because it is more efficient and cheaper in the long run (two attributes I haven't seen enough of from greens).

Disposing of CF bulbs is a significant problem for anyone in California who's trying to do the right thing. As mentioned, in Oakland there's one legal disposal site that's a 20-minute drive from my house. Saying that a bulb has 1/10 the mercury as a thermometer doesn't make me feel better; sounds like a normal household could throw away a lot of mercury over the years. How are all you folks getting rid of your used bulbs, actually? We're just keeping them in a bag in the closet. On a related note, I haven't noticed they last much longer than incandescents.

Some people are a little more sensitive to fluorescent flickering. I think this is connected to some other physiology issues, IIRC. Like Chesire says, there may be some connection to autism. Maybe there is to Asperger's, short of full autism, too.

We use CFLs and the light is just fine. The warming up of the bulb for about a minute is nice in the morning, as we're not hit with the intense brightness right away -- it's like the sun coming up.

I've spoken to an electrician about the humming issue (our CFLs don't, but we had long flourescents that did hum), and the response was that if fixtures are properly wired, there should not be any humming. Our CFLs don't hum at all.

Despite the comment above that there is no mercury in new CFLs, that's just not true -- they all have some mercury. The environmental argument is that the energy savings include a savings in the mercury pumped into the atmoshphere from the burning of the coal at the average power plant, which more than offsets the amount of mercury in the bulb. Count me as not entirely convinced. I use CFLs but remain concerned about this issue, particularly because I know that almost noone disposes of flourescent bulbs properly. We tried, and took our traditional flourescents and CFLs to our city's semi-annual toxic materials disposal event, and while they properly handled chemicals and paints, we watched in frustration as the bulbs were mindlessly tossed into the dumpster.

A practical LED solution would be great.

How are all you folks getting rid of your used bulbs, actually?

None of those from my first five years of using them had died, so there were none to get rid of when I moved to a house with different (recessed) fixtures that demanded new ones; so we left the old ones in our old apartment, still probably with a few years of life left.

I've used them for a couple of years. No problems at all. No experience with dimmers, though.

My wife and I have been using CFs more and more since they first appeared some 10 years ago. The early ones weren't great, but the non-dimmable ones available nowadays are fine--no flicker, fast start, and satisfactory color. They've come from various sources; the spares in the cupboard now are from Safeway and Home Depot.

We also have four dimmable 26-watt floodlights from GE (product code 21718). They're installed on a circuit controlled by a standard incandescent wall dimmer (as specifically allowed by instructions on the package). They work OK, but more than our other CFLs these are a work in progress. They take several minutes to warm up, and if dimmed too far they don't just flicker, they flash on and off roughly 10 times per second. When we first installed them, the light seemed an eerie green, but now we're completely accustomed to it, and it seems quite natural.

The circline lights with a 3-way lamp adapter are great for growing plants indoors. Use the brightest setting for a few hours each day and the plants thrive. I use those to grow African Violets. Plants love fluorescent lights.

We use CFs everywhere that we can. My husband took out all our dimmer switches when we switched, because we rarely used them anyway. They do take a little while to warm up, but in a way that's nicer than the sudden "LIGHT!!!!" one gets from an incandescent, especially when one's just waking up in the morning. We even found some that fit perfectly in the recessed light fixtures in our bedroom. We don't use them in some of our older fixtures that require special bulbs, a particular set of track lights where we just can't find a CF that fits, or outside (because they don't do well in the cold.)