I have CFs throughout the house (whatever brand is cheap in a big pack at Costco). They are a little dim and don't work well with the dimmer switch (as noted). But the light is fine, I've never noticed any problem at all. No flicker, no pallor.

What I'm really waiting for is LEDs at a reasonable price and a real white light.

Kevin - I started using the inhouse Lowe's brand and even have some GE bulbs, and they all work fine. I recently put them by my front and back doors - lights I keep on all night. When cold, those bulbs take about a minute to reach full strength. But the interior ones I started using - on all but one halogen reading lamp - work just great. No flicker. I've gotten used to the light - its a different spectrum than incandescent, a bit cooler, but wholly unobjectionable.

And to think that at full strength, all of these bulbs will use less wattage than two incandescents! It makes it all look even better.

No experience with dimmers, though. I'd imagine that it would make a bulb flicker if not at full strength - the physics seem right.

I'm a big fan in theory, but I tried them (from Home Depot), and the quality of light was terrible. very cold. used them in an overhead light in the dining room, so eating dinner felt like having lunch in the office. I took them out, despite the guilt.

I've tried the compact flourescents. The only thing wrong with them is that they don't fit certain lamp fixtures. And by the way, ANYTHING is a good excuse for Kaus bashing. The sun came up this morning - that reminds me: screw Mickey.

What kind of dumbass takes advice about anything from insthack?
Moron mickey of course.

We have Sylvanias in our lamps and love 'em.

Although I should note that most will not fit in the tall, floor-based lamps (the ones that usually use those little halogen lights, but now use standard bulbs) because the base of the bulb is too large ... and a cut potato is the best way to get a broken CF out of one.

I have yet to notice the "flicker" effect.

Instapundit: not a good source of info on either politics OR compact fluorescents.

I've yet to find a CF that didn't say, right on the package, not for use with dimmers. I have heard there are such, but I don't have them. That said, I recently replaced many bulbs in my house with CFs. I find that that I disagree with the 'equivalent' number on the packaging- they all seem slightly, but only slightly, dimmer than the bulbs they replace. But I am lighting all three fixtures in my hallway with less electricity than one fixture consumed before.

Newer CFs, even the cheap ones from Home Depot, seem better made and have better color than even the best from a few years ago. There are now ones that are color-corrected to match what we tend to think of as 'normal' incandescent. All my old CFs have been rotated out to the basement, porch, and other utility areas.

I like klieg lights.

A lampshade can help give the light a warmer color. I tried that with some Ikea CFs and the warmth improved quite a bit (IMHO).

Cheap Compact Fluorescents are not compatible with dimmers, you gotta get 'cold cathode' : http://tinyurl.com/2a6756 (from bulbs dot com)

I use CFs wherever I can. I rent, and my current abode has a lot of dimmer switches, so that limits where I can put them. I take my CFs with me when I move.

Yes, they take a minute or so to warm up. Not a big issue.

They use less wattage than an incandencent for the same lumens, so I can use a brighter CF in a given fixture (ie, use a 40 watt CF in a fixture rated for 60 watts, putting out more light than a 60 watt bulb). Of course, you don't do that everywhere, just for places you need a lot of light.

I've been using CF bulbs around the house for a couple of years, replacing whatever burns out with them. I usually just buy what is on sale. Can't say I notice too much difference and I hate them all. Can't stand flourescent light at work and not happy about having it at home.

Only have one dimmer circuit in the house and haven't tried putting a CF bulb in there yet, so can't say anything about the flicker. But don't all flourescent lights flicker...and buzz?

What's Mickey's point in saying he uses Glenn's brand of light? Maybe it illuminates only one side but says it's unbiased.

I've been using compact flourscents for years. I would not use them in any sort of exposed-bulb overhead fixture, or in a lamp with a paper shade. But they work great with a glass shade. Somehow the glass makes the light pretty much as warm as any incandescent.

Another good option is, if you have a fixture that uses multiple bulbs, to replace 50% with CFs.

Question to group: Does the packaging say anything about mercury and special disposal requirements? I heard that some CF bulbs use mercury and should be disposed of carefully.

News Flash--My Phillips CF bulbs specifically say "DO NOT USE ON A DIMMER." Recessed and enclosed lights are also a no-no.

Doesn't anyone read the directions on consumer products???

BTW: In regular lights, they're terrific. We're slowly replacing all the regular bulbs with CFs, so long as they're not on a dimmer or recessed/enclosed.

My main gripe is that they are noisy, mine, at least, puts out a distinct hum.
They work well as outdoor lights, and seem to attract less bugs than incandescent ones.

I must be sensitive to the flicker. All of the incandescent bulbs replaced with flourescent drive me crazy. When my spouse is not looking I am going to replace one or two with incandescent.

In the early Eighties I worked in the kitchen of a steakhouse restaurant chain that installed flourescent bulbs throughout. The flicker was horrible, but no one else noticed.

I generally hate flourescents,but have tried the CFLs (Home Depot's store brand - soft light) and they seem to work fine. Start dim at first but warm up quickly. No flicker I can notice and soft light, very similar in color to incandescents. Except for outlets on dimmers, I replacing all the incandescents in the house with CFLs as they burn out. Even bought two outdoor floods (haven't used yet, as the old bulbs still work).

I used to design light dimmers. They work by turning the circuit on an off very quickly (120 times per second in the US). I'm surprised the compact flourescents even work at all on a dimmed circuit. I'm not surprised that they would flicker. In the future, we will dimmer CF compatible dimmers on the market. But you will have to replace all your dimmers if you want to use CF bulbs.

How can you deny us Mickey bashing? He's being an idiot as usual.

I use CFLs and have no problem with them. The light quality is just fine as long as you pick the right color spectrum. However, this is not hard as most CFLs have a color spectrum similar to that of incandescants. I use a much whiter CFL in my bathroom for that antiseptic look. :) I also like CFLs because I can get a 150w equivalent which I use in my unfinished basement.

A few things to know about CFLs:

1) Don't put CFLs in fixtures that you turn on and off a lot, or have on for only short periods (less than 5 minutes), such as in closets or hallways. You won't get much benefit out of a CFL in these situations because CFLs are less efficient when cold, and because the short cycle reduces their lifespan.

2) Don't put CFLs in enclosed ceiling fixtures unless the CFL is rated for higher temperatures. Higher temps reduce the lifespan of a standard CFL. Look at the packaging for specifics.

3) Don't use with dimmers unless the CFL is rated for use with dimmers.

Also, the older circular fluorescent adaptors really suck. Don't confuse them with the newer CFLs.

I'ved used CFL almost exclusively in my home, with no flicker problems, for something like 6-7 years. Variety of brands, no problems.

Most specifically state that they can't be used with dimmers, though I think I've recently seen a handful that specifically said they could be used with dimmers.

Both with regular CFL bulbs in lamps or overheads installations and with CFL spotlights in recessed lighting, I haven't had problems with the light quality (though they aren't quite as nice as the halogens they replaced in the recessed lighting in our new house), using the bare bulbs for light (when, e.g., a shade was broken) was worse than doing the same with an incandescent bulb, but that's not a normal condition.

Also, I use a full-spectrum flourescent desk lamp: better light than any incadescent lamp I've ever seen.

I've also noted that, besides the super expensive full-spectrum desk lamps, Home Depot, at least, is now carrying premium CFLs that are only slightly more expensive than regular CFLs that supposedly have better light quality, but I haven't gotten around to trying them. Also, more smaller CFLs for specialized fixtures than I used to be able to find.

I love my CFs from Philips! They are a very warm, pleasant light that doesn't strain the eyes. Indeed, I prefer to read in the living room under the CFs than in my bed where I have an incandescent bulb.

Mr. Kaus is somewhat correct about the "flickering" effect of a flourescent bulb. The defective ones are quite difficult to use and if you have frequent power outages or power surges, they will cause the bulb to flicker more sporadically. The bulb that I was using in the recreation room flickered so much one evening, I rolled out of my chair and had a mild spastic attack, not unlike an epileptic fit. I bit my tongue, spilled wine on my shirt, and a bowl of popcorn went sailing across the carpet.

Avoid these evil bulbs if you can.

Does the packaging say anything about mercury and special disposal requirements?

IIRC, mercury was phased out of fluorescents a while back. On the traditional long ones (like in offices) you can tell the difference because the non-merc ones have a green strip on the end.

Didn't notice any warnings on the CFs.

I have several identical overhead fixtures. The ones that are on a dimmer switch have an incandescent bulb, while the others have CFs. There is absolutely no way to tell the difference. The only bad CF bulbs that I have had were hideous but really cheap Ikea bulbs. Otherwise I have a mixture of Sunbeam, Sylvania, and Philips bulbs. I also have Philips circline fluorescents in the outdoor fixtures. I had to replace the cheesy Chinese-made bulbs that came with fixture because those were hideous. Dimmable CFs are available from www.bulbs.com as well as 3-way CFs and various exotic sizes.

CF bulbs are much better than they were a few years ago.

My main gripe is that they are noisy, mine, at least, puts out a distinct hum.

The first CFLs I got ~2000 sometimes had that problem (but often you could tap the bulb and it would stop humming for a while), especially as they got older. The new ones we've gotten since we moved to a house that was all set up for recessed floods don't, at least not yet.

remember when ali said: " i am so fast i can turn the lights off and be in bed before it is dark."

well, these lights come on so slowly i can turn them on in the kitchen and have my cereal before it is light.

I have CFs in all but one lamp in my condo. The one with which I can't use CFs has a dimmer (and had the flicker problem). It just died, so I'll be getting a non-dimmer lamp to replace it.

Light is very nice, though you need to let the bulbs warm up before they reach full brightness. And you can get "warmer" or "cooler" bulbs depending on what kind of light you like.

As with nearly everything these days, you can get pretty much whatever warmth, brightness, or shape of CF you want if you do a simple internet search. For instance, I have globe CFs (with candelabra bases) in my bathroom. Those have operated quite well for almost a year. The incandescents I used to use only lasted a month or 2 at best.

I use CFLs in about 75% of the fixtures in my house. I don't have any problems or concerns. They are subsidized in Sacramento by the local public electrical utility, so they are cheap (a couple of dollars per 40W equivalent bulb. I change bulbs so infrequently I almost forget that I used to buy incandescents at the grocery store. CFLs don't work with dimmers unless they are specifically designed for the application.

As others say, if you have a dimmer circuit (even if you only use it at full on or off) you have to get special, more expensive, less available bulbs. Presumably this will be remedied in a couple years as the market catches up.
I use all CFLs except for 4 recessed dimmer lights, 2 lights on our stove that are off-low-high switched, and 5 candelabra lights (I actually found E11 base dimmable bulbs but they were only 15W equivalent- if they had 40W I'd buy them, but these things barely gave any light.) Outside ones do take a while to warm up when it's cold out. I also made the mistake of getting a "daylight" bulb for the living room, that is not what you want- in general get the warmest color (lowest temperature equivalent) they offer if it's for indoor use.
Also, a couple (~5%) did end up buzzing after some use- I just replaced them and haven't had problems, I think there are just some bum bulbs in the production process, just like incandescents.

What bugs me is that they don't fit into small light fixtures like the ones in my hallways. Plus I really hate it when people spell fluorescent "flourescent". Other than that, I don't mind them too much--the flicker goes away after a few minutes, usually.

jdwill, ALL compact fluorscents use appreciable amounts of mercury, same as tradtional fluorescent tubes, which must be handled as hazardous waste.

Go ahead and save a few kilowatts, but how many people have the discipline to properly store old and defective bulbs (I have had several go bad) to put them in the hazardous waste stream? My locality collects hazardous waste one or two days a year at a collection center.

What will happen is widespread groundwater contamination by mercury as people have household accidents or put them in landfills.

Their fevered proponents fail to mention, or plan for, lifecycle and wastestream management, proving once again that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

My landlord just put those expensive CFs in the hallway fixtures. The tenants stole them all, now the halls are completely dark.

I recently bought Sylvania and Lowe's house brand compact
fluorescent bulbs. The brightness is fine after a ~2 minute
warmup period. I compared "60 W" and "100 W" CF's
with the corresponding incandescent bulbs and found
that the CF's were only a little dimmer. There was no
observable flicker.

The color balance is more than acceptable.
(I bought one of these a year ago and rejected it because the
color was wrong...the new ones are much, much better).

These bulbs should not be used with dimmers. They have
a fair amount of electronics in the base that don't work
well with dimmers. Using them that way can result in
premature failure.

I recently bought Sylvania and Lowe's house brand compact
fluorescent bulbs. The brightness is fine after a ~2 minute
warmup period. I compared "60 W" and "100 W" CF's
with the corresponding incandescent bulbs and found
that the CF's were only a little dimmer. There was no
observable flicker.

The color balance is more than acceptable.
(I bought one of these a year ago and rejected it because the
color was wrong...the new ones are much, much better).

These bulbs should not be used with dimmers. They have
a fair amount of electronics in the base that don't work
well with dimmers. Using them that way can result in
premature failure.

Are these the spiral type of bulbs? If so, I love 'em. I think the light they give is fine. I've had no problem with flicker (though I don't have any dimmers), and they freaking last forever.

"I would not use them in any sort of exposed-bulb overhead fixture, or in a lamp with a paper shade."

That's all I have in my house.

I don't know about the compact bulbs, but the traditional tubes cycle at 60 hertz. that's presumably below the 'refresh rate' of the human eye, but when my computer monitor is set at 60, it drives me batty and I have to change it to at least 72. Even if you can't consciously notice a flicker, you may be subliminally effected by it. Fluorescent lighting has long been known as a source of workplace stress.

I use all incandescents in my office and people tend to want to come in and sit a spell. Maybe it's my sparkling personality, but I think it's the steady yellow lighting and the soothy desktop fountain.

The Prairie Angel

I have used CFL's for the better part of a decade. I have never had a problem with them and they last a lot longer than incandescents, if they are brand-name like Sylavania, Phillips or GE. I did buy a card of the cheapest ones once, and they did flicker and hum, and it was decidedly not worth the buck I saved.

too lazy to read all the advise, but-RTFM!! do not use CLFs connected to a dimmer, damit!

Yeah, I have fluorescents. They're fine. They don't seem to flicker at all. They're GE.

They took a little time after first being used to give the full output of light, though, besides the regular amount of time they take to warm up. They seem to warm up quicker after you've used them a few times.

I was discussing this with a co-worker years ago, before I ever switched, and opining about how I don't like fluorescent light (I guess it depends on the context- sometimes it's alright and sometimes I don't like it - like I never thought I'd like it for my home). He recommended halogens, which I totally forgot, and just remembered when I went to buy the fluorescents. I was tempted to get the halogens because I want the regular light, but the fluorescents are so much cheaper.

Anyway, the fluorescents turned out to be not too different from regular bulbs, especially after warming up/ getting used to them. I saved the regular bulbs and I'll put them in when we have company I guess.

Second the Ikea bulbs- they're only a couple bucks, but they suck.

> they all seem slightly, but only slightly,
> dimmer than the bulbs they replace.

I have to agree with Kevin that this whole topic is really weird. I would very much like to be an earth-toned, earth-friendly kinda guy and use CFs everywhere in my house. But I find that they are dim, flicker (no dimmers in my house), and produce very ugly light. I have tried 6-7 brands with the same result. People I trust tell me this isn't the case for them, but when I try the brand they like I get weird-colored flicker.

As a result I have CFs in the basement, and a few paired with an incandescent in hard-to-reach dual fixtures, but I can't use them anywhere else.

Cranky

I've got a house full of them, and I love them. Keep them off dimmer circuits and there's no flicker. They cost nothing to run, and last for years. I sometimes have to use specialty incandescent bulbs (like for outdoor bug lights or desk lamps) but other than that, I don't buy anything else.

I have been converting the house to CF over the last 3 years. In general I have no problem with them. I have had a couple give out on me (surprising since they are supposed to last 5 years).

My main observation is that unlike a regular they take time to come to full brightness. Sometimes this is good (for example at night it is not quite as hard on your eyes), but usually I find it bad. If you have a place where you need lots of light right away stick with a regular. If not go CF!

Yes.

If you go out and buy the cheapest CF bulbs available on the market, you get:

- CF bulbs that do not last long.
- CF bulbs that put out objectionable color, or flicker.
- CF bulbs that do not work on a dimmer.

Two good resources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp

http://members.misty.com/don/cfx.html

We use a mixture of CF's and traditional bulbs. Specifically, we don't use CF's with dimmers, this is not a good idea.

www.samefacts.com/archives/energy_and_environment_/2007/01/walmart_greening_up.php

www.samefacts.com/archives/energy_and_environment_/2007/01/cfls_again_revised_10am_pst_sun.php

excellent discussion above.

www.janegalt.net/archives/009578.html

worth reading through the comments.

The 'listed' lighting ratings aren't enough, usually, you need to 'overspec' ie use the 100W rating of CF for the 60W incandescent.

They don't work with dimmer switches. Period.

Offtopic, but not really, I didn't always agree with her, but LA Blogger Cathy Seipp is apparently in the hospital for the last time....

Every package of compact flourescents I've ever seen tells you not to use them with dimmers. Most do so on both sides? Is this so hard?

We use them in most of the fixtures and lamps in our house and they work fine. They are used commonly in the Third World country where my wife is from. By the way there are more important issues here than the aesthetics of the light quality, even though that is, as I said, fine. If every home and business replaced their conventional bulbs with compact flourescents the impact on electricity bills and energy use would be large.

There's also the atmosphere, but no need to dwell on that here.

Yes, some do contain mercury. We take them to our hardware store for disposal along with our used batteries. They wear out so infrequently this is not a big deal. As my grandfather used to say, "If that's the biggest problem you had today you've had a pretty good day."

We get ours at Costco by the way. That's both the bare bulbs and the enclosed spots. I've seen regular compact flourescent bulbs in glass covers that make them look just like incadescents. My guess is you'd have to be pretty discerning to notice much difference in everyday use.

I use MaxLite Micromax-Spirals, 25W, Warm White (no dimmers). They take a few seconds to warm up (the advertising claim to the contrary notwithstanding), but I can't discern any flicker, and the quality of the light is fine. I'm very happy with them.

MaxLite's Web site lists a bulb supposedly suitable for use with dimmer switches, but I haven't tried it.

These bulbs do contain mercury, though.

We use fluorescents in most of the fixtures in the house. We don't have dimmers, so we don't observe any flickering.

The only real problem we ran into was the long warm-up time for Sylvania bulbs - *several minutes* to warm up to a reasonable brightness). Lowe's house brand bulbs warmed up much quicker and thus were acceptable to the rest of the family).

No time to read this entire thread, so my apologies if I'm just repeating what someone upstream has said .... but, CF's are NEVER supposed to be put in a circuit with a dimmer switch on it. I suppose there might be a brand/model out there that is specifically designed for that, but if so I've never seen it. Dimmer switches will kill the bulbs far before their normal life expectancy, and in any case they cause awful flickering.

Seems like I have a couple of brands of CFs in my house -- Feit, for one. Not the best brands, necessarily, but they've been reliable, they do not flicker, and they give an excellent, warm quality of light (not harsh, like old traditional tube fluorescents). Once I replaced all of them in my house that I could -- pretty much, every bulb in the house except one circuit on a dimmer and the two porch lamps -- I noticed an immediate drop in my electric bill of about $4-$5 a month. It really surprised (and pleased) me.

Y'all probably saw this back in January, but here it is anyway:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/weekinreview/07hamilton.html?ex=1325826000&en=294a235a5bb5c9ca&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Basic take-away is that rooms/objects look fine to most people in CF light, but people actually look somewhat unhealthy. Reason is that CF light is more towards the blue end of the spectrum than the "warm" red end where incandescent light falls.

- Dave

What will happen is widespread groundwater contamination by mercury as people have household accidents or put them in landfills.. . .
Posted by: Seppo on March 21, 2007 at 3:18 PM | PERMALINK

The electricity they save means less mercury in the environment because less coal is burned. There was a reputable study done on this a few years back. Seriously check out the wikipedia article on CF bulbs.

I have used CFLs for many years, first in just a few lamps and just recently in all but the halogen fixtures. The early bulbs did have poor light quality but the more recent bulbs (Home Depot, not sure of the brand) after the initial warm up period are quite good. I now have installed in the outdoor fixtures, the ceiling fans with the frosted globe covers.

I recently purchased special dimmer CFLs for the dimmer fixtures and there is no flicker. They are more expensive (available online for $7-15 each although I found mine on ebay for $5 each) but good light quality.

Given the energy and energy cost savings, marginally worse light quality is not too much to sacrifice. My children can not tell the difference so the whining hasn't kicked in.

I've been using them for 2-3 years; here's some wisdom:
1) www.topbulb.com has some 100 different spiral CFL bulbs, ranging from 2 watts (8 watt equivalent for an always on socket) to 105 watts (400 watt equivalent), dimmable, non-dimmable, black light,
three-ways, etc.etc. They also have 25 different CFL with a cover so they look like incandescents, 30 CFLs that are reflector bulbs, even candelabrum base CFLs
2) An advantage of CFL is to put a LOT more brightness bulb where the fixture is wattage-limited....ex: you have a 60 watt max fixture that's the only light in a garage...put in a 60 watt CFL and you'll get 240 watts worth of light.
3) They aren't always happy with solid state timers...I had solid state timer switches on the closet lights...worked with incandescents, but with CFL, the CFLs would blink intermittently when the switch was 'off'. I replaced them :( with spring-wound timers.
4) The common motion-sensing switching that you might use ( in garages, basement, etc) don't work with CFLs. Leviton has a commercial grade motion-sensing swtich with a relay that works fine, tho it costs $60, the ODS10.

I've cut my electric bill by 30%

Kevin, what's next, a post about what underarm deoderants work best?? Come on, there's too much going on right now to waste a post on such an inconsequential subject. Leave it for the pathetic Mickey Kauses of the world and keep your focus on Bu$hGate.

Have the government force you to replace a cheap bulb with one we make that costs a lot more? Works for us.

Suckers.

"Dimmer switches" are silicon-controlled rectifiers (SCRs), which take the sinusoidal voltage coming out of the house power, turn the negative-going half-waves "upside down", so that you have a train of "camel humps" as the voltage profile, then use a variable-voltage diode clamp to shunt the voltage to zero at an adjustable level that you control with the knob. AC voltage in houses is 60 cycles per second, hence 17 milliseconds per full wave, so the SCR is firing at 120 cycles per second.

Incandescent lights, because they are hot metal filaments, have enough heat capacity that they do not cool off during the 8 milliseconds or so per half-cycle that the voltage gets clamped off, so their light stays perceptibly steady.

Fluorescent lights are a tenuous gas (1/1000 of an atmosphere of mercury vapor) and so have basically nil as a heat capacity. And the relaxation rate of atomic transitions is sub-microsecond, so when the SCR clamps the voltage to zero, a CFL will follow in its light output to zero essentially instantaneously. So, while sub-10 ms is technically faster than the human "persistence of vision" criterion, it's true that most folks can sense a flicker.

It's not good for the CFL to run it with a dimmer switch as well, because the lamp has to re-establish electrical breakdown of the gas every time the voltage begins to ramp up again.

Soooo...NEVER use a CFL with a dimmer switch. And as for the light quality, here's a little trick I use: when replacing a say 60W incandescent, don't get the "60W equivalent light output" CFL, get the next higher light output model. It'll still be less than 40% of the electricity usage of the old incandescent, but it'll look brighter, even at startup.

> Their fevered proponents fail to mention,
> or plan for, lifecycle and wastestream
> management, proving once again that there
> is no such thing as a free lunch.'

seppo,
I noticed you conveniently left out the mercury pumped into the atmosphere by the burning of coal, which is a significant amount. CFs = less electricity = less coal burned = less mercury deposited. That has to be taken into account as well as the mercury in the CFs.

Just an oversight I am sure ;-)

Cranky

I purchased a fairly decent torchiere, stainless steel, fluorescent fixture last year to replace its fire starting halogen brother. Circular CF with a dimmer.

It died fairly recently and will not start with replacement bulbs. Unfortunately, the ballast is electronic as is the dimmer and both are basically irreparable. I'm about to rip out the guts and re-install a simpler version, possibly incandescent. So much for green.

I replaced all of my bulbs about 15 years ago. They were pretty expensive at that time, but I'd read an article saying what a good idea it was. Some are still going. In fact quite a few are still going. I actually wrote the date on them when I installed them. They last longer than what is being claimed. They don't flicker. They work just fine.

Also, they do take a big pop of electricity to get started, then they use much, much less than the incandescent bulb. If you use a CF bulb in a fixture that is only turned on briefly you won't save much energy and the bulb won't last as long. For that reason I have an incandescent bulb in my bedroom closet since I usually flip it on, grab something, and flip it off. There wouldn't be much advantage to using an expensive CF bulb in that context.

I had one explode a few years back. I put it in a hallway (enclosed) fixture where regular bulbs constantly burned out. The package merely said not to use it in a wet area like the bathroom. I guess the enclosed fixture wasn't a good idea, but luckily it contained the blast.

PS

I don't think we have a dimmer though, whatever that is.

I kept the regular lights in the bathroom just because it's so much better to have regular light in there, but we have a lot of lights in the house so we still save money.

I've got CFs throughout our house and they're fine. I don't put them on dimmer circuits, but I don't really use dimmers all that much. I've been using CFs for a LONG time and they've gotten much better and brighter, especially once they've been on for a minute or so.

I swapped out 750W of outside floodlights for the 23W CF versions and they're fantastic. They light up more evenly, appear brighter, and now I'm using 183W when they're all on. Sure - they turn this wild shade of purple when it's cold and they turn on, but they warm up fast enough and are plenty bright.

I even got the wife to go along with swapping out the 40W frosted globes in the bathroom with the new CF versions - they light more evenly - she really likes them.

For dimmable CFLs see http://www.1000bulbs.com/category.php?category=544

I hate the quality of fluorescent compared to incandescent, but I use these bulbs in all my ceiling fixtures that use more than 1 bulb. I use 1-2 compact fluorescents with 1 incandescent. I get the power savings and hardly notice the difference in the quality of the light. Sure, it would be better if they were all fluorescents, but this seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

GE makes special ones that are dimmable. My husband special ordered them for our kitchen. They were about $10 a peice which was bout 2x the price of the regular dimmable flood lights we used.

As for quality, when on using the dimmer they are not as bright as the regular ones however on full they are significantly brighter.

I've used a variety of them over the years for lights I keep on all of the time. Same problems as everyone else. However, as they advertise how long they last, I did take to putting installation dates on them just to see. I had one that was on 24/7 for 5 straight years!

Maybe I should revisit CFs. When I tried them say 5 years ago I was very disappointed in the light output. They were very dim and there was NO way the CF rated to replace a 100W incandescent put out the same amount of light. It seemed to put out the equivalent of maybe 60W incandescent.

Also if you had light fixtures with shades that attach to the bulb you were out of luck. Also they didn't fit into fixtures with small glass enclosures.

I'm fairly green but I also want good lighting around the house. I don't want my home looking like the typically dimly lit hotel room.

I have BIG hopes for LEDs.

Mercury: I read on GE's website that the amount of mercury in these bulbs is almost negligable, and you would have to throw out thousands or something like that to equal one mercury thermometer. That said, yeah, try to dispose of properly, but compared to the amount of greenhouse gas that is produced to burn the equivalent of regular bulbs, even with the mercury, this is a nobrainer. Go with CFs. Complaining about the mercury and saying you'd go with regular bulbs is like straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

I can't believe there were 73 comments on this in 45 minutes. We're all experts on fluorescent lights, it seems.

There should be no excuse for people complaining about dim CF bulbs! I got one that is almost too bright! There are some that are 200W equivalent spots.

They take 1 min to fully warm up, but they have zero flicker (if they do they have a crummy "ballast" and you should dispose of it). You can also look on the box can figure out what color they are going to be. Warm "yellow" or cool "blue." I used to like yellow but now I like blue once they are all changed. It feels more like natural light than normal bulbs. I saw my electric bill drop like a rock too.

I have BIG hopes for LEDs.

You and my husband both. All of our TV's are LED. His computer monitor is LED (I'm not giving up my 19" with the heated kitty-shelf until it dies a natural death) - everything he can get LED he does get LED. He's the EE, so I defer to his expertise.

Just put one in last month. I'd bought it before reading about the mercury problem. This morning is started making a high-pitched whining noise when turned on. If it keeps up, its coming out.

NEWS FLASH: READ THE INSTRUCTIONS. Every package & bulb I have seen has said "not for use with dimmers"
This has always been true of any fluorescent bulbs of which I am aware.

Lights Of America: WalMart house brand. Absolutely a WORST-BUY in any bulb type. They burn out in a hurry. My new fangled fluorescent burned out in less than 6 months. What good is a guarantee when you don't save the foot long WalMart receipts?

GE: No Problem with flickering, about a 2 second delay when starting, & color OK. I have had 3 in use for about a year.

Some fixtures they will not fit into due to being too large near the base. Different color values will become available as their popularity grows, just as tube types are today. I think I have seen some which are shaped & sized to standard bulb sizes & configurations.

I will be buying more, but will stick with the name brands. Bottom line: I like them.

You'd have to be a fucking nerd and a loser not to get fluorescent lights at this point, though.

How about correcting your spelling, Kevin Drum?

Fluorescent.

Yup, dimmers are a problem. Recessed lights, too. Which means I can't use them for 80% of my lighting. But for the other 20%, they're just fine. Unfortunately, some of those lights get turned on and off more than is recommended for CFs, so I’m probably not saving as much electricity as they promise either. But hey, it’s something.

CF bulbs vary greatly in quality. Some have a very pronounced warm-up period, some start right up at nearly full brightness. Some last forever in harsh environments, some die young when treated gently. Probably buying the very very very cheapest available isn't such a good idea.

I *like* white light. I buy "daylight" spectrum bulbs when I can, and I much prefer the white light to the very yellow light from incandescents. I must be some sort of freak.... That said, most of the ones that try to simulate nasty yellow incandescent light seem to me to do so very well. I have yet to encounter discernable flicker, though I'm plenty sensitive to old CRT monitors at too-low refresh rate. Some of the cheap ones, especially as they age, do hum a bit.

Someone asked about mercury: In Oakland, CA, it's now illegal to put CF bulbs in the regular trash. They have to be disposed of at the haz waste dropoff or any store that collects them. (If anyone lives in Alameda County and doesn't know about the Haz Waste dropoff place, check it out! It's free and you can get rid of all those scary cans in the basement.)

Brat: Doesn't anyone read the directions on consumer products???

As with computer manuals, reading the directions is giving up.

As it happens I know a bit from my job.

Flourescent bulbs used to flicker at power line frequency (60hz in US) because the ballasts (electronics used to start and drive the lamp)were unsophisticated and the light followed the sine wave shape of the power line.

For quite a few years now flourescent tubes, and ALL CF lamps, use electronic ballasts that have essentially no flicker. Using high speed video you can film at 1000 frames per second under a CF lamps and the illumination will be steady. So Mickey is doing something wrong, no surprise there. As many folks have pointed out maybe he is on a circuit with a dimmer.

Color quality is measured on a scale called CRI (color rendering index). This scale measures how evenly all colors are represented in the light. It is NOT the same as color temperature. Both daylight (color temp 5600K) and incandescent (2800K) bulbs have perfect cri scores of 100. This becaise they are both balck-body radiation sources, which have very smooth spectral curves.

Generally speaking, a cri of 65 can be perceived as 'white', but will not render color well. At cri 85+ color rendering is reasonably good to the eye. CRI of 90+ is good enough so that it is used by Hollywood.

Flourescent bulbs are available that are cri 90+, but they are expensive, and they aren't CF bulbs.

A good CF will have a cri of 80 - 85. http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Spec%20Sheets/Philips%20CFL%20Tornado.htm shows the spectral curve for a good (cri 83) Philips CF (lower right hand corner). It is very spiky.

http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Spec%20Sheets/Sylvania%20BA12000.htm shows the much smoother curve of a CRI 95 metal halide bulb used in Hollywood.

IMHO the government should mandate that CF bulbs be marked with color temperature AND cri, just like tires have heat and treadwear ratings. It would then let the customer know what they are buying. I personally use CF bulbs at homer because they save energy, but I can tell the light is inferior to incandescent. I would love a 4000K (not too warm or cool) cri 90+ CF, but I have never seen one.

Actually the longer initial warm-up period I experience might just be attributable to the cold, as one of the first comments stated, because I walked home with them and put them in right away when I got home.

I got the cheap Home Depot CF's over a year ago, and they've been great. They were a very good deal, too -- something like 10 bulbs for $10, and so far I've only had to replace maybe two of them.

However, if you want to use CF's with a dimmer switch, you need to get a special kind, and I think they're considerably more expensive. But as I say, the last time I got bulbs was more than a year ago, so maybe my info is dated.

I bought 2700K dimmable bulbs made by TCP, both the lamp and 3.5" floodlight kind, from 1000bulbs.com. The 2700k bulbs give off a warmer cast -- the difference is unnoticeable in lamps and only slightly noticeable with the canned lights.

I only replaced the bulbs that tend to be used for long periods of time, and I mix both the incandescent and CFL lights in frequently-used rooms so that if I need to have a light on immediately, I turn on the incandescents for a short time while the CFL bulbs warm up.

We have several, but the light seems to lack presence or something.

And I tried one in the bedroom but when you turn it off it leaves this ghostly afterglow that lasts an hour or more and the eye inevitably tracks right to it and it simply ends up actually spooky.

My electrician recently installed a dimmer switch for me and he specifically said not to use a CFC bulb with it.

Never used fluorescents with dimmers.

The light is slight lower quality, so if I'm replacing a 40 watt bulb, I will use a 60 watt equivalent (about 15W), and if I'm repacing a 60 watt bulb I'll I'll use an 80 watt equivalent (about 20W).

"Plus I really hate it when people spell fluorescent "flourescent".
scribo"

No one, least of all Kevin, seems to have noticed. Annoys me too (though I frequently type it wrong in the first instance myself.)

Another good option is, if you have a fixture that uses multiple bulbs, to replace 50% with CFs.
Posted by: RFM

A CF rated 60-watts is not a bright as an incandescent rated 60-watts. Therefore, go up to 75-watts in the CF. You get more light (if needed) and still save electricity.

The better new CFs (not all are created equal) provide better light than the bulbs from years past. However, they still aren't a warm as incandescents. This is a problem in the winter in the norther tier of this fine country.

http://www.terrapass.com/terrablog/posts/000153.html

This site give great information on CFs in general and "dimmables" in particular.

I tried GE and Osram (Sylvania) CFs and threw them out after a few days to go back to good old incandescent bulbs. I positively hate the quality of the light.

I actually borrowed a diffraction grating to a teacher friend of mine and took a look at what light those CFs put out and hurgh, it does suck. A mash of very narrow wavelengths so it sorta looks like white except it’s not white at all. Incandescent bulbs don’t have a flat spectrum either but at least, it is continuous.

So, I’m waiting for white LEDs with a decent spectrum and an acceptable price. No there yet but at least more promising than anything that can be achieved with fluorescence.

kevin,

I'm all for better lighting solutions but CFL as marketed by WallMart are just ticking time bombs. The Mecury content is just waiting for widespread distribution in to world-wide ground water supplies.

Just think to yourself how many broken light bulbs you have seen lying around in your life, imagine everyone of them leaching mercury. See a problem yet?

LEDs are the better lighting solution.

I'm sorry - I tried, I REALLY did - tried three or four different brands of CFs, never used a dimmer, gave myself days to get used to it - and I just can't STAND the light quality!

The spectrum, or the tint, or whatever, - I REALLY can't abide it. SO I donated the CFs to the Salvation army, put back the Incandescents, became a nazi about turning OFF every light I wasn't using.

And I try to drive less.

Sure, they're more expensive, but I love that incredible shrinking electric bill!

We've used Sylvania and GE and Phillips, all fine. The humming goes away after about a minute as the bulb achieves "full power."

I'm fairly myopic, but can read for hours with a "curly" 100-watt fluorescent bulb. They seem to look better in smaller rooms; in our large home library, the light is a bit ghostly.

We have the inexpensive Brite Effects ones available at Lowes. They work just as they should. We also put some of the CF that have a round glass bulb in our ceiling fans. They're OK. They put out less light than the standard twisted CFs.

Modern CFL's (even most cheap ones) use switching power supplies that run at 40,000Hz or more -- they simply do not flicker if given steady current. But using this sort of power supply makes them incompatible with dimmers and some other electronic controls, like movement or light sensors. They'll not only flicker, but they could ruin the dimmer/controller as well as themselves. But otherwise, if it flickers, it's defective.

There are dimmable CFL's which can be dimmed down to about 20% -- less than that and they'll flicker or even go out. They generally cost more and are harder to find (though pretty easy to find on-line). But they generally work fine; I've tried Greenlite, Westinghouse, and TCP, and there are others.

CFL's are rated with a "color rendering index" or CRI. Cheap bulbs have CRI's of about 80 (the scale runs to 100); you can get 90 or better if you want to pay for it (once again, look on-line). The higher the number, the closer the light is to a black-body source at the specified color temperature. And, of course, the latter varies from 2700K for incandescent replacement to 11000K or so for "skylight" bulbs.

We found a bunch of off-brand CFLs at 6/$10 for the 60W replacements and 4/$10 for the 100W, and we've been switching as the old ones burn out. One of the 60W CFLs has already died, which I assume can be chalked up to generic product quality. Other than that, I can't complain. I'm very sensitive to flicker and have noticed nothing (we also have no dimmer switches), but my wife thinks they take a few minutes to warm up in the morning, starting at maybe 75% of full light when you first turn them on. When we run out of the generics I'll probably buy some name brand ones to replace the handful of regular bulbs that are left.

I like them. They save me money on my electric bill. Now I can make the payments on my Suburban.

dcwp on March 21, 2007 at 3:01 PM

ditto.

I started buying them one at a time about 15 years ago. The light is slightly pink compared to the slightly orange of incandescents. Some electric companies subsidize them, so you should look to see if yours does. When you buy them, check the lumen rating, in addition to the nominal wattage equivalence. Don't be afraid to experiment -- it's in a good cause. Think of what your forebears did to get you here!

CF's are great.

They do not work well on switches with dimmers because a dimmer switch, even when at full power, ever so slightly varies the amount of electricity going into the bulb. With incandescents that is fine because they generate light by heating up. The tungsten filament in an incandescent is a deliberately poor conductor of electricity so the friction created generates heat and light, mostly heat.

CFs work differently. A minimum amount of electricity is necessary to excite the electrons in the florescent gas. If you do not have that minimum amount of electricity the electrons do not bounce around correctly and return to their normal orbits. Whereas with incandescents, if you have less electricity you just end up with less friction and commensurately less light.

I have one CF from college that still works. it is going on 20 years old. These days they compact them even more and put them inside a flood light case with a tinted cover and you get the same light as an incandescent. I swear by them. You get used to not having a dimmer. Besides, the only time I used dimmers was for mood lighting. I only need mood lighting if I am hosting a dinner party or trying to score. Since I am married with kids, my chances of doing either are slim to none.

I have been replacing my burnt-out incandescent bulbs with Sylvania CFLs. No flicker. The light is fine.

People who don't like the color of fluorescent light just need to shop around a little bit. My local home store, Menard's, has a display with all of the different CFLs lit and some are quite warm. I didn't even pay attention to color temp when I bought my bulbs and they look fine in every room of the house. I honestly can't tell the difference from incandescent.

I have found that CFLs will not work in extreme cold. I had one in my garage and it burnt out within a few seconds of turning it on. In that instance it was -20F outside. I would be curious to figure out what the practical minimum temperature is, but that would be an expensive experiment and it's not like I'm going to seasonally change the bulbs anyway.

tomtom's explanation of the Color Rendering Index at 4:01 completely explains my impression of cfl light lacking 'presence'.

As with computer manuals, reading the directions is giving up.

God, that is so true!

Someone above mentioned that fluorescent bulbs work by turning on and off 120 times per second.

My question is, in a house with older wiring where the current flow might not be as smooth we'd like, can this exaggerate the hiccups of turning on and off and so causing a flicker?

LEDs are the better lighting solution.

Sure, if price is no constraint, but last I looked they were over $100/bulb.

The only ones that put out a decent quality of light are the full spectrums, and the little curlies don't come in that type.

They are OK, but I still prefer the quality of incandescent light to any standard fluorescent. OTOH, they last a lot better, especially in the sockets that seem to eat bulbs by the gross.

In the 15 or so years that I have been buying the CFs, the warm-up time of the bulbs has gotten shorter.

As others have said already, it is quite worthwhile, environmentally, to invest in CFs instead of more electrical generation capacity: less total pollution of all kinds.

I have started buying full-spectrum LEDs, but only for specialty purposes, like nite-lites. As soon as I see the "light equivalent" of 100W incandescents, I'll but some to see how they work out.

The flickering and quality of light produced by flourescent bulbs can be very uncomfortable, even to the extent of bordering on painful for people on the autism spectrum. I'm not saying they're a bad idea in general, but that isa real drawback for some people.

Wow ... guess I was wrong about the mercury issue (not the first time, not the first issue). My fault.

So ... since a CF broke in our floor lamp and got all over the place as I was trying to remove it, is my kid going to grow a third eyeball?

Seriously, though, how worried should I be about that?

I have replaced almost all of the lightbulbs in my house with CFLs. None of my lights are connected to dimmers, and I believe there is a waringing right on the CFL box that tells you not to connect it to a dimmer switch. Now I am enjjoying sub $150 per month electric bills, while my neighbors are complaining about their plus $250 bills. And the light quality is just fine. I do have one complaint, however. The life-span for CFLs does not meet the hype. My CFLs burn out regularly just like incandescent bulbs. Still worth the extra expense, though.

I've replace every bulb in my apartment with CF bulbs and it hasn't bothered me, except when I need to do really close up work. Then I simply augment with another light source.

I don't do this out of any heartfelt green attitude. I do it because it is more efficient and cheaper in the long run (two attributes I haven't seen enough of from greens).

Disposing of CF bulbs is a significant problem for anyone in California who's trying to do the right thing. As mentioned, in Oakland there's one legal disposal site that's a 20-minute drive from my house. Saying that a bulb has 1/10 the mercury as a thermometer doesn't make me feel better; sounds like a normal household could throw away a lot of mercury over the years. How are all you folks getting rid of your used bulbs, actually? We're just keeping them in a bag in the closet. On a related note, I haven't noticed they last much longer than incandescents.

Some people are a little more sensitive to fluorescent flickering. I think this is connected to some other physiology issues, IIRC. Like Chesire says, there may be some connection to autism. Maybe there is to Asperger's, short of full autism, too.

We use CFLs and the light is just fine. The warming up of the bulb for about a minute is nice in the morning, as we're not hit with the intense brightness right away -- it's like the sun coming up.

I've spoken to an electrician about the humming issue (our CFLs don't, but we had long flourescents that did hum), and the response was that if fixtures are properly wired, there should not be any humming. Our CFLs don't hum at all.

Despite the comment above that there is no mercury in new CFLs, that's just not true -- they all have some mercury. The environmental argument is that the energy savings include a savings in the mercury pumped into the atmoshphere from the burning of the coal at the average power plant, which more than offsets the amount of mercury in the bulb. Count me as not entirely convinced. I use CFLs but remain concerned about this issue, particularly because I know that almost noone disposes of flourescent bulbs properly. We tried, and took our traditional flourescents and CFLs to our city's semi-annual toxic materials disposal event, and while they properly handled chemicals and paints, we watched in frustration as the bulbs were mindlessly tossed into the dumpster.

A practical LED solution would be great.

How are all you folks getting rid of your used bulbs, actually?

None of those from my first five years of using them had died, so there were none to get rid of when I moved to a house with different (recessed) fixtures that demanded new ones; so we left the old ones in our old apartment, still probably with a few years of life left.

I've used them for a couple of years. No problems at all. No experience with dimmers, though.

My wife and I have been using CFs more and more since they first appeared some 10 years ago. The early ones weren't great, but the non-dimmable ones available nowadays are fine--no flicker, fast start, and satisfactory color. They've come from various sources; the spares in the cupboard now are from Safeway and Home Depot.

We also have four dimmable 26-watt floodlights from GE (product code 21718). They're installed on a circuit controlled by a standard incandescent wall dimmer (as specifically allowed by instructions on the package). They work OK, but more than our other CFLs these are a work in progress. They take several minutes to warm up, and if dimmed too far they don't just flicker, they flash on and off roughly 10 times per second. When we first installed them, the light seemed an eerie green, but now we're completely accustomed to it, and it seems quite natural.

The circline lights with a 3-way lamp adapter are great for growing plants indoors. Use the brightest setting for a few hours each day and the plants thrive. I use those to grow African Violets. Plants love fluorescent lights.

We use CFs everywhere that we can. My husband took out all our dimmer switches when we switched, because we rarely used them anyway. They do take a little while to warm up, but in a way that's nicer than the sudden "LIGHT!!!!" one gets from an incandescent, especially when one's just waking up in the morning. We even found some that fit perfectly in the recessed light fixtures in our bedroom. We don't use them in some of our older fixtures that require special bulbs, a particular set of track lights where we just can't find a CF that fits, or outside (because they don't do well in the cold.)

Buy ENERGY STAR labeled CFLs!

In Havana last July I walked about in La Habana Vieja, the oldest sector of central Havana, with block after block of huge old apartment buildings--six to eight stories. Street lighting was minimal, and the light emanating (dimly) from apartments was an eerie bluish, anything but warm.

On the positive side, I had learned the day before from an engineer with the electrical utility that CFLs had (along with about four million automatic electric rice cookers) nearly solved one of the most critical electrical generating capacity problems that had ever faced that struggling nation: They had been forty percent short of generating capacity.

Before undertaking the task of building new capacity they looked for where they could derive new capacity by cutting into waste. After a short study that focussed on ancient fans, hot plates and incandescents, they bought efficient electrical appliances and millions of CFLs from the Chinese. In the space of several months, they swapped out every incandescent on the island, gave (or sold on the long term-payment plan) fans and rice cookers to nearly every household.

They finished that phase of the solution and found that they were still short on meeting peak demand. But they had reduced brown-outs and outright blackouts to 5 percent of what had prevailed. Getting the additional generating capacity is underway.

When Peak oil hits, the island Cubans will have the experience of using their ingenuity and calling on their endurance to adapt and thrive.

When south Florida (90 miles away) gets into the same spot, the locals (including lots of coddled emigre Cubans) will have to adapt as well. They'll probably have other tools for getting their needs met--readily available around town--from thousands of gun shops.

Us, we'll collectively whimper and whine Kaus-style.

These LED light bulbs are compact in size, extremely bright and inexpensive to operate.
This 18 LED light bulb makes an excellent high definition reading light. Perfect to help you not feel guilty about leaving an accent light on all night.
Run it for 10 hours a day for a whole year for less than one dollar! This LED light bulb should last about 10 years. Rated at 31 lumens.

http://store.sundancesolar.com/ledlibu12for.html

I started replacing bulbs with the n:vision CFL bulbs from Home Depot and they have worked well. They even work on our dimmer circuits which can be clicked into full power, no flickering or anything. The soft white version gives off a pleasant light and works well in a number of room. Like some others here, I have yet to find CFLs that will work in some of the smaller bulb units I have. I am interested to see how the dimmer-capable bulbs work. But all in all, I am very pleased with the bulbs thus far.

I have bought the dimmable CFLs from 1000bulbs.com and was disappointed. No flicker but they buzz, except in one fixtures where it doesn't buzz noticeably. (I also have one dimmable incandescent fixture that does buzz noticeably.) Generally satisfied with the non-dimmable bulbs--make sure you get 2700K for the color or else you'll end up with too bluish of light. It takes a while to warm up, but after that the light is acceptable. In utility areas (cellar/garage), I bumped up from 60W incandescent to 100W equivalent CFL, which was a welcome change. Outdoor spotlights working well too. From what I've found dimmable LEDs are a technical challenge.

So ... since a CF broke in our floor lamp and got all over the place as I was trying to remove it, is my kid going to grow a third eyeball?
Seriously, though, how worried should I be about that?
Posted by: Mark D (aka "Unholy Moses") on March 21, 2007 at 4:53 PM | PERMALINK

Vacuum up the mess, don't let your kid eat the glass shards, and he'll be fine. Jeez.

We found some dimmer-approved CF lights online (forget where, a googling will find them) and they work fine, though are a little buzzy. But they're inside globes so you don't hear the buzz anyway.

We also found 3-way cfs and they work fine too.

Used them for 4 plus years, yet to replace one, no problems, but if the light is thrown over a large area of for reading, I go up one equivalence. Still save a lot in electricity. What is the actual energy saving on the whole equation, from production to disposal? Anybody know?

On the cold light, some years back I was working in graphic design. The studio had a lot of natural indirect light except, of course, when the sun was turned off. We replaced half the fluorescent tubes (4) with a full-spectrum type. The difference was incredible. Everything came back to close to its real color, much warmer. Now that has to be a possibility, doesn't it?

While I think some real thinking is progressing on this thread regarding CFLs, I am concerned that we are missing a key point: Utility regulation under Bush is a sham.

Why should consumers be made to save energy while major polluters get off scot-free (check out the EPA's ability to enforce Clean air rules under New Source Review)?

The key to CFLs is to use them.

The best brands are the ones your neighbor sells you :-)

Doesn't work with dimmer switches.

Also doesn't work well over bathroom mirrors, because the light sometimes can do some funny things with skin tones.

So there is a difference with incandenscents. However, especially with indirect light, they are indistinguishable from incandescents. I don't see the blinking problem. The cycle rate is pretty high.

I bet over time, a lot of the problems will be worked out.

I don't get people who complain about the price differences. If you buy them in a pack, the price comes down. And they last far longer than incandescents. Also, after a while, you're going to start to get more economies of scale.

Future clothing,

Lumalive is a photonic textile, which uses cloth as a lighted graphic display medium.

Developed by Philips Research Technologies, Lumalive integrates a flexible array of miniature coloured light-emitting diodes into a piece of cloth, which allows the cloth to display graphics, text, and animation.

Philips first unveiled a prototype of Lumalive at IFA 2005, and at IFA 2006, Philips demonstrated production-ready Lumalive as promotional clothing and upholstery [1]. Although not commercially available yet, Philips is currently offering the textile to business partners for promotional purposes. Fashion designer Anke Loh used Lumalive in her September 2006 fashion show in Chicago[2].

Businesses are already looking into diverting sunlight indoors using fiber optics. This could also be used for gardening and horticulture.

The compact flourescent is only one of an entirely new generation of lighting products. The EPACT law that was passed by the legislature in 1992 mandated the development of energy effecient lighting products, and we are just now seeing the impact of that, and will more into the future.
Another exciting development is the LED diode technology, which will result in a tremendous amount of energy savings in the future.
5000 Kelvin is the scale that is the color of sunlight, so the closer to that number, the better the light. There are lighting products on the market that are high quality, and they are available from reputable electrical supply houses.
There are a few dimmable compact flourescent lamps on the market, and they work very well when installed by a licensed professional. It is worth the cost for the money you will save.

Kevin, Here's a link to an informative CFL post over at Kleiman's joint.

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/energy_and_environment_/2007/01/cfls_again_revised_10am_pst_sun.php

The Chinese-made bulbs I get at Ace all say y on their base,"Not for use with dimmers". In other circuits they work fine. No flicker, pleasing wavelength.

According to an EPA fact sheet (http://www.nema.org/lamprecycle/epafactsheet-cfl.pdf), over a five year life span the combination of mercury emissions from the coal burned to power the CFL and the mercury in the CFL are only 64% of the mercury emissions from the coal needed to power an equivalent luminosity incandescent bulb. If the CFL lasts longer than 5 years, the difference in mercury emissions is even greater. Even so, proper disposal would certainly make CFLs an even better deal for our environment.

The same document shows that the typical CFL contains 4 mg of mercury, compared to 500 mg in the typical mercury thermometer. It also has precautions for cleaning up after a CFL breaks in your home and disposing of used CFLs.

As an aside, decades ago, when my son was a toddler, he bit off and swallowed the end of a mercury thermometer. My wife called the federal Poison Control Center in Atlanta. Their comments were that the mercury would show up in his diaper in less than a day and his body was unlikely to absorb enough to be harmful from a single incident. In fact, for a single incident, the threat from the broken glass he swallowed was greater.

" The life-span for CFLs does not meet the hype. My CFLs burn out regularly just like incandescent bulbs. Still worth the extra expense, though.
Posted by: Pocket Rocket on March 21, 2007 at 4:55 PM"

Make sure you don't use standard CFLs in enclosed fixtures. Look for the ones rated for higher temperatures.

We replaced every bulb in our house, including floods, with CFLs. No flicker, no "dulling haze". In a couple rooms we used the natural sunlight CFs and in others standards. The sunlight CFs are very like sunlight in appearance, and quite different from the yellowish color of incandescents or standard CFs. Our barn also has CFs.

No flickers, no problems at all. Even a few dimmable CFs and three-ways.

Me thinks Kaus is just being a whiny butt about something new and different. The US needs to follow Europe's lead and ban incandescents...or penalize them with a big incandescent tax.

Dimmables do not flicker but their dimming range is less than that of the most inefficient and wasteful bulbs in existence ever: incandescents.

I would like to try LED lights but boy-howdy they are SUPER expensive.

If you want dimming, you need a special dimmer just for fluorescent lights. CFL's rely on reducing the amount of current flowing in the arc in the tube for dimming; voltage must be constant. The electronic ballasts of CFL's are not tolerant to voltage changes of rheostatic dimmers. Go to the Lutron website for info on dimmers for CFL's as well as dimmable ballasts.

It totally matters on which brand you buy.

I happen to have many around the house, and the PGD specials (the landlord installed) are terrible.

Now, the oldold ones I have are really slow to light up, and eventually don't get tot he same super-bright they once did... But my Costco ones are great and never flicker.

I haven't used the new cheapies that PGE put out 'cept the ones they installed... But they were very cheap.

Oh, I have some AC LEDs, too, from Costco... My spouse hates them because they flicker at 60Hz, because they only use half the cycle to light.

Luckily, they come in 100s, so while 50 are on one cycle, 50 are on the other, and it evens out.

There's something magical about lighting the core stairwell with 8 watts of light - that's how much my one-bulb nightlight as a child took - and having the cool, soft light throughout the house.

You people have to learn to think outside the box. Just ditch all those lights and wear night vision goggles.

LEDs are now as efficient (terms of lumens/watt electrical driving power) as CFLs and within 1 year will be more efficient. Advances in solid state lighting is proceding like computers and Moore's law.

Also the new white light LEDs have a better color
match as compared with CFLs. I know, I have measured it with a spectrometer. And no I am not a LED light salesperson, nor do I do research in developing them.

The price of LEDs is coming down every day. I bought some for my outdoor garage lights a few months ago and they were only $30 each. People may choke, but considering their lifetimes are conservatively estimated to be 100,000 hours, in
10 years I would replace more than $30 in old fashioned incandescent bulbs.

Walmart is promoting their customers to buy CFLs.
At the same time they have announced that they will be replacing their store lighting with LED lighting. To save on power.

Hhhhmmmmm, wonder what you should buy?

My suggestion: Don't buy the CF bulb that's claimed to match the output of your incandescent. Buy the next wattage up if it'll fit in the fixture.

It'll still use significantly less energy than the incandescent.

I don't think those claims of equivalence are accurate, or else there's some factor in perceived brightness that isn't accounted for by measuring lumen output.

n:vision CFs are great. No flicker and they are available in "daylight" versions -- natural light balance, which avoids that sickly yellow-green pallor given by ordinary fluorescents and CFs. Available at Home Depot.

A point I haven't seen yet that's important during Southern summers: regular light bulbs give off a TON of heat because they use filament heating for their light/energy source. You can't comfortably hold your hand up close to a 100-watt light bulb that's been on for a while because of the heat.

Now replace it with the equivalent CF bulb, and you can even grip the bulb comfortably due to the lack of heating. Replace all the bulbs in your house, and you cut your energy bill two ways, because you're no longer having to pay for your air conditioner to reverse the heating effect of lots and lots of little heaters.

Hive Mind #3423472:

Every florescent I've tried, compact or otherwise, puts out a much harsher or uglier light than standard incandescents. An aesthetic judgment, yes, but since I have to spend a huge proportion of my life seeing everything via that light, it's a dealbreaker for me. Thank goodness I don't live in Australia. I think the technology (eg, LEDs) will get there eventually, but for the moment, I'd rather buy carbon credits to salve my conscience.

we are warned not to dispose of CFs in the regular garbage in Seattle. Instead we are supposed to make an appointment with the toxic waste folks to properly dispose of them. I have a pile of bulbs I need to get rid of.

Like DCWP, I use compact flourescents everywhere. And, I buy them at Costco.

My gripe: they hang below many older, shorter shades. Looking into them is as unpleasant as looking at a naked incandescent.

I have no dimmers; I have no flickers. I've forgotten how to change bulbs....

"My gripe: they hang below many older, shorter shades. Looking into them is as unpleasant as looking at a naked incandescent."

I have a metal cliplight with a CFL bulb over my desk with that problem.

I just printed out a glossy inkjet picture of an octopus attacking a Mr. Potatohead, and clipped that to the edge of the metal shade. It shields the bulb from direct view, and I get a colorful backlit scene.

Not surprised to see Instaschmuck endorsing GE products. They are one of the worst of the war profiteers and criminal corporations in this country. They spent decades dumping toxic crud into the Hudson River in upstate New York, and then hired an entire squadron of lawyers to fight the EPA's efforts to force them to clean up their mess.

I wonder if unpleasant color casts could be counteracted by bouncing the light off of warm-colored surfaces.

Have CFs throughout the house with no problems. Don't know the brand. Get 'em at Home Depot.

CF is the worst possible light for your eyes.

if you have eyes that are sensitive (mine are), it does terrible damage to your ocular system. personally, I had to go on a medical leave after being under them for several months. that flicker, coupled with the flicker of a monitor, can be detrimental.

it's a damn shame these things are popping up all over. human eyes are not meant to consume that kind of light, it's truly unnatural and unhealthy.

CFs dimmed to 50% cause pacemakers to short out.

What about street lighting and other outdoors lights? IIRC low-pressure sodium vapor lights (the yellow ones) are 2x as efficient as the closest competitors (high-pressure sodium vapor and mercury vapor).

Some people hate the yellow light, but big deal. The only problem is that yellow traffic lights are hard to notice, especially in an area you're unfamiliar with. Maybe we could introduce orange instead of yellow traffic lights, or something.

How much juice could be saved by switching outdoor lighting to low-pressure sodium vapor?

Been all CFL except for the two outside lights (-20F nights are commonplace here.)

The early ones were noisy, RF-wise. I'm a ham radio operator, and used to be able to tell when certain ones were on, and roughly how many total. That's not an issue any more.

How are all you folks getting rid of your used bulbs, actually?

Put them in a box, take the box to the transfer station quondam dump once a year. Usually there's three or four, no more.

I replaced all my incandescents with fluorescents 5 years ago and cut my electric bill in half. The older ones took a few seconds to come on, but the newer ones light up instantly--even though I keep my house cold in the winter, and even in the unheated garage. I'm amazed that so many people say they take a long time to go on. I did put one in my dimmer and it burned out immediately. So I got rid of the dimmer.

As for mercury, disposal and all that, the amount of mercury is tiny. Yes, you should properly dispose of the bulbs, but that's not a huge problem since it takes a few years to accumulate enough bulbs to dispose of. But even if you threw them in the land fill (I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT, OKAY?), they would still contribute less mercury to the environment than incandescent bulbs, which depend on an average of 50% coal-powered electricity, a huge source of mercury pollution.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. To the person who asked why waste time on trivialities like lightbulbs when there were so many important issues out there, what is more important than global warming?

Maybe the Iraq war? Even though there are only 21 million CFLs in use in America today, that's enough energy savings to equal taking 152,000 cars off the road. And you know what Iraq has that our cars need. Think what a difference it would make if we replaced 100 million or 500 million (five bulbs for every 3-person household) incandescent bulbs.

When it comes to fighting global warming, CFLs are the low-hanging fruit. No expensive solar panels, no years of research, no unpopular legislation.

Go to 18seconds.org to find out what a difference CFLs can make both environmentally and, yes, politically.

I've had the same experience as many of you:

1) The newer bulbs have good to great color, and I am not a fan of cold light. As recent as two years ago I thought the color sucked, but now it's much better. I sometimes spring for more expensive "natural daylight" versions depending on the room.

2) There is a definite warm-up period, especially for higher wattage bulbs. The baby spots in my kitchen take about 5 minutes. Once they're warmed up though, they give very good light.

3) Even the ones that say "works with dimmers" DO NOT work with dimmers.

4) I have seen a noticeable reduction in both my energy bill AND my bulb replacement frequency, which for some reason was horrendous with incandescents. Maybe the power quality is bad. I live in a brownstone with very old wiring and fairly crappy power quality from ConEd.

I have found CFLs to be a more then adequate replacement for incandescent bulbs. The color of the light is related to the Kelvin (K) temperature of the CFLs. This is printed on the bulb or package label. I prefer a CFL with a K of about 3000 to 3500. This provides a near white light. The higher the K the bluer the light and the lower the K the more yellow the light. I prefer the CFLs within a glass shell and thus shaped light a flood light. CFLs can not be dimmed with the incandescent dimmer. You will have to buy a special CFL dimmer (not available a Lowes or Home Depot but are from an electric wholesale supplier.) And you will also have to purchase a CFL that is dimmable, again from wholesale supplier or on line from bulbs houses.
I have move most of my light to CFLs and am most satisfied including for dimmable lights for artwork.

According to Adele Davis, the flickering of fluorescent lights causes humans to use up your vitamin A faster; and, thus, become deficient, which accounts for the eyestrain, headaches, etc.

we are warned not to dispose of CFs in the regular garbage in Seattle. Instead we are supposed to make an appointment with the toxic waste folks to properly dispose of them.

YES, PLEASE!

Mercury sources should not go into the Municipal Waste stream. Treat fluorescent bulbs like you treat batteries, which I'm sure you all make sure get recycled or go to a toxic waste site. Right?

For outdoor lighting, a great saving would be made if we pointed light down, instead of to the sides or even up. Targeted light is cheaper and lets the stars come through. See http://www.darksky.org/lighting/

I love mine. I have done the whole house, except for a few bulbs in the dining and living room that we like to dim.

I like CF's because they are a no-brainer energy-saving technology that stand on their own merits - meaning that the average individual will get a very good return on investment from putting them in, without any government subsidies.

Its great to have a win-win technology like this that does not require government compulsion for adoption. Which is why I find myself thoroughly depressed that states like CA and NC are trying to make them another target of government compulsion.

I've replaced most of my bulbs with CFLs, mostly from Home Depot. Most don't seem to flicker. Lifespan is a problem in enclosed fixtures, they burn out quickly from the heat. I found a few that work in dimmers, but they're not continuous, they go from off to half to full. I don't notice a problem with the light.

To echo the above: this all serves Mickey Kaus right for taking advice from Instapundit.

I've been buying CFs for nearly 10 years. I usually buy the full-spectrum ones, which give a light that's closer to sunlight than anything else anywhere near the price. Available from www.fullspectrumsolutions.com. Don't know if they have dimmable ones. I like that line: "Maybe Mickey Kaus is on a dimmer."

I am looking forward to LEDs ever since I bought a LED bicycle headlight. It has an incandescent bulb and a pair of LED bulbs. I used the incandescent first and my batteries lasted the usual, about three weeks. Then the light switched to "power saver" LED mode. The light is whiter, almost as bright, and I've been using those same "used up" batteries for three months!

I use CFLs in all my fixtures except the ones where the bulb sticks out and I can see it grabbing my eye. I go 100 watt equivalent to replace a 60 watt bulb. Concur with the guy who said, "What used up bulbs?" Haven't had to dispose of any in 2-1/1 years.

I have always hated fluorescent lights--all of them. Kaus is right for once--they give me a headache, no matter if they are compact, regular, white light, daylight, etc. I am particularly sensitive to flicker and I notice flicker on ALL fluorescents, even without a dimmer. Sometimes it's just the dying ballast, but that's not even the point. It's the way the bulbs work.

An incandescent bulb works on the principle that hot things emit light. So, with alternating current, it does not matter which way the current flows--the filament does not cool off enough between the current peaks for the light intensity to be noticeable. If you want to know what I mean, put a diode in a circuit with a regular AC bulb--it will start flickering at 30 times per second (60 Hz is 60 beats per second, but the diode wipes out half of them). This is enough to be noticeable for most people.

The problem with fluorescents is that they don't use the heat to produce light. The principle is quite different. So, every time the current changes direction (in common terms), the light flickers. That's 60 Hz again. Most people cannot distinguish 60 Hz, but some--like me--are sensitive enough to notice it and get headaches. Most of the time, in conventional fluorescents, the ballast is there to smooth out the transition--this is why when ballast gets old, the flicker becomes noticeable. Worn out ballast acts in the same way as a diode in the incandescent case.

Most standard dimmers modulate the current to achieve the desired effect. The problem is that this changes the frequency. Again, it's not noticeable, for the most part, in incandescent bulbs because the filament stays hot enough to emit light with fairly consistent intensity. But for fluorescents, this is deadly.

You can buy dimmers specifically designed for fluorescents--but they cost nearly double of the regular ones, and, if you already have one installed, the desire to replace it is fairly low. Besides, you must know what you are doing if you want to replace it yourself or pay $200 to an electrician to do it. The work does not require much brain power, but if one does not know the basic safety procedures when dealing with circuits, it's best not to touch them.

Are you guys still talking about this issue?

Get with the program, people!

;)

Kaus likes the traditional bulbs because you can't draw his portrait on a compact fluorescent.

I have had excellent experience with the Blue Max full-spectrum compact fluorescents. They give off a wonderful white light, quite bright. The reading lamp is great (70 watt full-spectrum fluorescent bulb), the torchiere is great (same: 70 watts, full spectrum), and the compact bulbs are great, wattages that provide full-spectrum light equal to a broad range of incandescents, including 100-watt, 150-watt, etc. Highly recommended.

Hey all, off-topic, but send good thoughts toward North Carolina. The Edwards campaign canceled an appearance in Iowa on Wednesday and called a press conference for Thursday to discuss the future of the campaign, after Elizabeth had a follow-up appointment that apparently did not go well.

Damn....

I love the things. Use them throughout the house except for the dimmers and the two places they don't work. One, because the base is too thick, and the other because it is an old fixture. I have been using them for years. They last forever. I wasn't saving money or power. I felt like I was changing a bulb somewhere every day. Now, I'm afraid I'll forget how to change a bulb, it's been so long.

I'm very particular about my lighting in terms of mood and setting, so I use mainly GE Reveal bulbs, combined with custom shades, and do more with less, setting the ambiance when I need light, but otherwise being really vigilant about not using unneeded lights.

If you like to have the whole place lit up all the time, and you are concerned about conservation, then I'd go with the fluorescents or other more energy-efficient options.

http://www.amazon.com/GE-Reveal-Four-Light-Bulbs/dp/B0000DI2TE/ref=sr_1_3/102-0314923-7256134?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1174543555&sr=1-3

Also, be very picky when it comes to shades and how the color of your walls, or you might accuse a full spectrum bulb of being no different than any other incandescent bulb.

The thing I find interesting is how many have said the flicker of even the newest bulbs gets to them -- I am super-sensitive to electronics, buzzing, flickering, etc, and new CFs don't bother me at all. Considering I always felt like an outlier, it surprises me that there are a number of people with greater sensitivities than mine. Yay! I feel like less of a freak now.

I don't always love the color quality, which has definitely varied by brand and this thread has given me some ideas about what to look for. Unfortunately, as has been mentioned, buying new bulbs happens so infrequently I forget what does or doesn't work in the meantime.

I actually think that the flicker is harmful to the brain. I remember reading that fast moving images on T.V., for instance, have been shown to cause some kind of severe reaction in some people. I'd have to look it up. Of course T.V. does that anyway, as do computers. maybe that's what's wrong with everybody...

For some reason that I can't elucidate flourescent lighting makes me uncomfortable. It doesn't seem as "natural" as incandescent. If they ban incandescents I hope they can take the flicker out of flourescents and make them "warmer" (i.e. less hospital/factory lighting like).

Fluorescents strike me as rather, uh, "un-domestic" in general. Reminds me of a department store or a clinic-- I can always feel that aggressive flickering on the ceiling. I agree with ER, just don't feel as warm or smooth. That being said, haven't yet tried the CF's.

I'm not sure incandescents overall are a dead letter, it's just that Tom Edison was frustrated after something like 10,000 failed attempts in his lab in Menlo Park, and took the first thing that actually cooked and shone. Happened to be burnt tungsten, which also happened to be one of the most utterly inefficient coils ever assembled by human hands. (And in fairness, Tom wasn't even the first to be dabbling with the stuff for lightbulbs, for that matter.) I'm sure there are plenty of better materials over a century later to get the photons dancing, it's just that this hasn't exactly been the most active area of research.

I've used CF since the west coast was Enroned in 2000-01. Love them. I only have one dimmer in the house, so that fixture still has an incandescent, but it's rarely on, so I don't worry about it.

They're a simple way to lower your electrical usage, especailly if you put them in the lights you leave on the most, like a porch light.

I've used some GE CF's. They did NOT last very long at all. I've had incandescent bulbs last for many, MANY years (can't even count how many), but these bulbs didn't have what it takes.

I think some of this is hype, like when cars say they get such and such mileage, but they get way less.

CF lights are supposed to be energy savers, but they're actually not. They will use less energy at the consumer's end, but they take about ten times the energy to manufacture as do traditional incandescents. On top of this, the manufacturing process involves the use of Mercury, a nasty poison which we don't need to add any more of to the environment.

Thanks, but I'll take a pass on CFs and just stick to the incandescents.

Antoinetta III

They will use less energy at the consumer's end, but they take about ten times the energy to manufacture as do traditional incandescents.

So? They last ten thousand hours. An incandescent lasts 1000. Thus, if it takes ten times the energy, that's a wash over the lifetime of the CF lamp, because instead of buying ten incandescent lamps (at X energy to manufacture), you'll buy one CF (at 10x energy) instead.

The mercury problem is easily contained -- don't throw them in the trash. The biggest source of mercury in the environment right now is coal power plants. The less total energy we use, the less coal we burn, the less mercury in the environment.

I'd much rather have that mercury in a glass tube, contained, than spewing out of a smokestack.

CFs dimmed to 50% cause pacemakers to short out.

Really? Hot DAMN. I'm going to pretend to be a rabid rightwinger and hater and invite Cheney over for some coffee. We'll sit around my living room table and I'll get up and dim the CFs to 50% and go a great distance to saving the US and the world.

Anybody who's sitting at a CRT monitor complaining about flickering fluorescents is straining the gnat and swallowing the camel.

What's the refresh rate on the monitor?

As to those bought at Home Depot, FEIT was sold in the beginning of the incandescent program - PGE in Portland, OR gave out discounts for them. They worked rather well - However, shortly thereafter, the since departed, vastly overpaid, CEO of Home Depot changed their purchasing program. Went to a single supplier of products. For electrical, they switched to Phillips - Did not work as well, with that flicker.

Loews uses different suppliers - Sylvania, and I believe FEIT, and others.

filosofickle: The thing I find interesting is how many have said the flicker of even the newest bulbs gets to them -- I am super-sensitive to electronics, buzzing, flickering, etc, and new CFs don't bother me at all.

Thank you. Same here. Back when computer monitors were mostly CRT's, and I worked in offices that had conventional fluorescents, it drove me nuts when people had CRT's w/ a 60 Hz refresh rate. If I had to look at somebody's monitor for more than 2 minutes I'd ask if it was ok to up the refresh rate. After I did, almost everyone said they couldn't tell the difference, whereas to me it was dramatic.

So I'm sensitive to it. But CFL's? Give me a break. No human eye can even notice a 40,000 Hz flicker rate.

Considering I always felt like an outlier, it surprises me that there are a number of people with greater sensitivities than mine.

I suspect that the complainers are reacting to a few bad or very cheaply made bulbs, or confusing them with conventional fluorescents, or maybe just imagining it.

I am an artist and have replaced half of my incandescent 120 watt studio floods with cfls (2700K), no name brand, made in China. They have a slight red tinge but work well with the regular bulbs. They are not quite as bright. They take a few minutes to warm up.

We also use cfls in the living area, in several lamps that have shades, and they are fine. These are IKEA brand, both the swirly shape and the standard shape. No problems, no flicker, decent color temp., though as noted around 10-20% dimmer that what they claim are the incandescent counterparts. We have no "dimmer" fixtures in the house.

Highly recommended; at the least one can replace half of one's lighting at a huge savings of cost and carbon with no noticable degradation of light quality. I am sure the cfl light quality will improve even more across the board as they become more popular--it already has in just a few years. Environmental Defense has a good campaign and information on this issue:
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/page.cfm?tagID=632&campaign=mts

By the way, when folks advise not to use CFLs in "enclosed fixture," to what does that refer, exactly? I ask because as I mentioned earlier, my CFLs do tend to burn out just as fast as incandescents. Should I not be using lampshades or glass enclosures? What about track lighting fixtures? I have two rooms where I have CFL indoor floodlights partially enclosed in track lighting fixtures. I would rather not simply have exposed CFL bulbs in every room in the house. The yaren't particularly attractive to look at.

Incidentally, the mercury released by power plants for the extra energy it takes to light an incandescent bulb (over the life of a cfl) far exceeds the amount of mercury involved in the manufacture and use of cfls. What is needed, further, is comprehensive recycling of the bulbs so even that mercury can be captured. This is not widespread, unfortunately.

Thanks to all for the answers on mercury. I even learned about coal plants releasing it, something I would never have suspected.

Vacuum up the mess, don't let your kid eat the glass shards ...

Well, there goes his afternoon snack.

Jeez.

FYI -- my son has a heart condition that makes him extremely sensitive to certain things, including toxins like mercury. Just wanted to make sure the amount was minimal.

No need to be a dick.

CFs have gotten better--the color of the light still puts me off but well-chosen shades or reflectors fix most of this. I don't use 'em where they'll cast any light on prints or paintings or photos, though, 'cos they produce enough UV to fade ephemeral pigments and dyes...not as fast as daylight or the big-dog high output FL tubes, but they do their part.

Add to this consideration the mercury factor and the higher manufacturing cost, and I conclude that they are a real boon but not a "magic bullet"--making light consumes resources, although cost and consequences may be shifted and shuffled around. About half the lights in my house use CFs, and I try to both use lower-wattage lamps in the rest and use them less. So, I straddle this ecological/economic fence like many a fellow-muddled liberal!

Does anyone know of a CF bulb that is not made in communist china? I'd like to use them but I do not buy chinese stuff. Thanks.

They don't fit everywhere. I have two kitchen under-the-soffit lights which are shallow globes. The CFs are too thick to allow me to use the cover globe to enclose them. So, if I use CFs as light sources for those fixtures, they just have to hang there, dangling, wiring exposed and ugly. Same with the bathroom vanity lights. My home is new. I don't want to replace these fixtures.
My standing lamps in my living room need 100 watt globes. The CFs are too thick here also. Can't get my lampshades on over them. No thanks!
In my closets the CFs are terrific.

They don't fit everywhere. I have two kitchen under-the-soffit lights which are shallow globes. The CFs are too thick to allow me to use the cover globe to enclose them. Ditto my livingroom lamps.In my closets the CFs are terrific.

They don't fit everywhere. I have two kitchen under-the-soffit lights which are shallow globes. The CFs are too thick to allow me to use the cover globe to enclose them. Ditto my livingroom lamps.In my closets the CFs are terrific.

Use them all over. Take a few seconds to warm up but no biggie. Eventually u get used them. Home Depot has house brand for dimmers. Don't use regular ones in a dimmer, they'll burn out very quickly.

David Ware

As the references below explain, you are saving far more energy and environmental damage, with a CFL.

And you are saving yourself money too. There is no false virtue in this: a CFL both saves you money, *and* saves the environment.

A CFL is a classic example of market failure. Consumers *should* save themselves money by buying CFLs, but they do not. There are 100 examples of same, that the best, money saving technology is not deployed.

The reasons are complex: they range from the split incentive problem (landlords don't install such bulbs, neither do tenants) through to lack of information, through to the fact that consumers have trouble estimating the saving on their electric bill vs. the cost of buying the CFL.

Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute, who has devoted his life to energy conservation technologies, has thousands of examples of this problem in business and in domestic life.

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/energy_and_environment_/2007/01/cfls_again_revised_10am_pst_sun.php

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/energy_and_environment_/2007/01/walmart_greening_up.php

I don't know what bulbs other people are getting that they don't like. I have a houseful of CFLs, which I bought when I moved into my new house with lots of light fixtures 2 1/2 years ago. Out of those 20-odd bulbs I bought, I've had to replace 3, maybe 4 of them in all that time. The rest are doing great. No flicker, nice bright white light, long lasting.

The ones that died did have a flicker or odd noise problem, but it's strange to me that some in this thread are reporting that most if not all the bulbs they buy are like that. Am I just insanely lucky with my bulb choices? I doubt it.

i have three CFs (sylvanians) in a torchiere floor lamp with a dimmer. the thing that bothers me is the hum. i suspect that without the dimmer, or a better lamp, i wouldn't have this problem. the lamp is my main source of light in my main living area, and after i installed the CFs, my elec bill went down 10%, nuff said to keep me a convert.

jdwill

The story on coal plants emitting mercury is even more horrid than you might imagine.

The technology exists to reduce this by 80-90% at an economic price, but the Bush Administration has specifically set aside the laws requiring plants to do this.

See Jeff Goodel's excellent book 'Big Coal'.

Beyond that, the best technology for coal, which would allow the CO2 to be captured and stored underground, is called coal gasification (Intermediate Gasification Combined Cycle, or IGCC for short), also happens to eliminate 100% of mercury emissions from coal fired power stations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle#Integrated_Gasification_Combined_Cycle_.28IGCC.29

Note someone has edited the entry to give a notably more pessimistic view of the technology than may be justified.

I can't believe I just read 207 comments on CFL.

I've replaced almost all the bulbs in my house w/ CFLs, with good results... except for some of the specialty bulbs like the globes in the fixture around above the bathroom mirror, and some kinds of the torpedo/candelabra bulbs. The globes particularly seem to burn out even faster than incandescents. You can get most bulbs in just about any color temperature you want, which totally solves the "it looks cold" problem.

And please, people... it's "fluorescent". "Flourescent" sounds like a property of something produced at the Pillsbury factory.

L.E.D.

In 10 years, the rest will be history.

Read the fine print on the cfl packaging and it will tell you not to use the bulb on a dimmer.CFL bulbs that do work on dimmers do exist but I have not found them on the shelves of any local hardware stores.You will have to order them from internet retailers.