Very importantly, the most obnoxious ranters/offenders types are typically "conservatives" or pseudo-libertarains, not liberals/progressives.
What does that tell us?

The talk radio world, one that Imus worked hard to shape, is one where overpaid white guys who did well in the voting for the title of "Class Clown" at their respective high schools sneer at blacks, women, gays, what have you, in a dismayingly self-congratulatory tone.

Yes, I can see how that paragraph would keep Kevin and the loony left "semi-riveted".

It has all the ingredients for a great weenie liberal read. Demonization of whites, a healthy dose of self-loathing opportunity. Heaps of race allegations, and on and on...

If the blogger could've somehow worked in a critical tie-in to President Bush, Kevin would have achieved total nirvana.

Keep Howard Stern out of this. He's the a genuine satirist and he's needed.

Phil Nugent delivers the first Don Imus rant that actually kept me semi-riveted all the way to the end.

Kevin, I think I've counted 3 or 4 posts attacking Imus on this blog, but none about the railroading of the Duke Lacrosse team. How come? I think it's more than a tad hypocritical for you to attack Imus for being a racist and sexist without defending the Duke Lacrosse team from the racism and sexism they were the victim of.
As for Imus, I saw Carville and Begala defending him this morning on CNN which means he can hardly compared with right leaning talk show hosts like Rush Limbaugh. I think it's unfair for you to pick Imus as an example of conservative talk radio when he isn't even a conservative. Otherwise, Carville and Begala wouldn't defend him.
But I think if Imus is to be fired, Rosie O'Donnell should also be fired for her racism against Chinese people on the View. How come that didn't happen?

In the late Eighties a popular 'classic rock' radio station in Phoenix had a local cowboy writer who made all kinds of jokes about and spoofs of African-Americans. I thought it was insulting and stopped listening. That writer now has a prominent spot in the Sunday local monopoly opinion newspaper's Sunday editorial section.

'Yes, I can see how that paragraph would keep Kevin and the loony left "semi-riveted".

It has all the ingredients for a great weenie liberal read. Demonization of whites, a healthy dose of self-loathing opportunity. Heaps of race allegations, and on and on...

If the blogger could've somehow worked in a critical tie-in to President Bush, Kevin would have achieved total nirvana.

'

His rush to judgement is matched by your rush to dismissal.

Why do lefty-moderates get "sick of" the Don Imus affair two minutes into it, and start saying "so what? they do it worse in rap songs?"

If I were the father of one of those girls on that basketball team, and I was in a dark alley with Don Imus, I'd make sure that when he walked out of that alley he could rightfully be called a "toothless cracker."

NOTHING excuses the crap that came out of Don Imus' mouth. And if he got fired, he got what was coming to him. End of story.

NOW let's talk about those other things.

"loony left"
"weenie liberal"
"Demonization of whites"

You pretty much prove Kevin's point: "sneer[ing] at blacks, women, gays, what have you [that is 'weenie liberals']" is what your talk radio heroes have taught you, sportsfan79. And you have the gall to say that it's "whites" who are being "demonized." Right after you've finished demonizing liberals for three paragraphs yourself, for no apparent reason.

Look in the mirror, if you want to see a "demonizer."

Al doesn't read the comments.

Stupid, there were 5000 comments attacking Nancy Grace, etc. for railroading the Duke lacrosse team.

Could someone please tell me what thin veneer of rationality the wingnuts are using to label Imus a "liberal"?

Honestly there's absolutely no difference between his opinions and Rush Limbaugh.

Unless the nutties are going to argue Rush is a liberal too I'd have to say Imus is as conservative as they come.

Kung Fu Monkey also does a great job of explaining why Imus's comments were not about being funny, but about demeaning young women. He was nothing more than a BIGOT, good riddance!

http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/

And as Neil B. says above, KFM and his commenters also take to task the pseudo-libertarians (John, Cole, etc.) and conservatives who can't or won't understand that its not about free speech but about racism and bigotry.

Let's pretend for a second that Imus WAS a liberal commentator....

uhh... so what? Now everybody hates him, because he showed himself to be an ass. I fail to see how this discredits anybody, let along their political platform.

This whole business where we try to discredit policy options by pointing out that a messenger of those options is "bad" is juvenile, pathetic, and myopic.

mhr,

Yeah, and you were at the fore front of attacking Imus for his pit bull tactics against the Clintons.

Russert, a liberal????? - Check out his guest list sometimes - Mostly Repugs and he only attacks the Democratic guests. He is a "liberal" in the same vein as Chris Matthews, two tony island swells who play to the power of the Shrubs.

A lot of what you need to know about Imus and his fans can be learned from the fact that the Rutgers Women's Basketball Team is now getting hate mail.

One hates to generalize, but I doubt if any of it came from Liberals. Are there no liberal bigots in the world? Of course there are. But few, if any, of them get the 50,000 WATT FLAMETHROWER OF TRUTH (I'm not making that phrase up!) radio megaphones.

Oh, good grief. The Duke boys weren't victims of racism and sexism, they were victims of a mentally disturbed woman and an incompetent overaggressive prosecutor in a tight election race. What happened to them was terrible, but it was notable because wealthy white boys rarely get railroaded like this, and they can usually afford the legal firepower to get justice eventually. This kind of thing happens multiple times every day to black men and women.

As for Rosie O'Donnell, she's treading on very thin ice right now, but a couple of unpleasant cracks aren't even close to being in the same league as Imus's decades of routine daily racist/sexist/homophobic ugliness.

"What hypocrites liberals are!"

*Damn* those liberals, for agreeing with one thing Don Imus said and disagreeing with another thing he said!

Imus is the new OJ.

Spare your fellow man and toss him in the memory hole.

Meanwhile in Iraq ...

Kevin, the Imus affair is not about his choice of words or the existence of shock radio generally. No one expected more of Imus and comparisons to rap music and Howard Stern are somewhat superficial. Imus got in trouble and was properly criticized not due to some sudden outpouring of concern over the state of discourse in the US. Imus lost his show and a storm of controversy arose because he insulted, in a very demeaning manner, a group of high achieving students who did not invite the slur and should never have been insulted.

This media attention is not about what was said so much as it is about the fact that he picked on and insulted a group of innocent students that didn't ask for it and deserved our admiration and accolades.

I think we've missed the larger point of Affair D'Imus. Imus was (is) what he was (is): a provocateur at heart. He found his voice, however, when he discovered that there was a great mass of white male bitterness and resentment that he could tap into. A sneering sort of worldview that said do-gooders were insincere and that reverence for the Good Old Days was the one true calling.

The casual bogotry, misogyny, homophobia, etc., were all just a part of it. Imus loved nothing more than pointing out that someone who was revered was in fact less than perfect. And oddly, some truly idious people were able to be celebrated because they had one small corner of their souls that were in fact non-odious (Rick Santorum, John McCain, etc.)

The victory here is not the removal of Don Imus, because he won't be gone for long. The victory here will come if we are a bit more steeled to confront the empty-headed white bitterness that insists, above all, on thinking that whites and blacks are similarly situated when it comes to race relations.

...Demonization of whites... sportsfan79 at 2:12 PM

All fantasy claims of white victimhood.

Now that Imus has been outed as a liberal bigot,... mh rat 2:24 PM

Who knew Ted Nugent could write so well?

Who knew Ted Nugent could write so well?
Posted by: Kenji

*snort*

are there any conservatives out there capable of arguing intelligently on this blog, or are mhr, sportsfan, al, et al, the best that they have? seems like their bench is pretty darn thin. below the mendoza line thin.

a local cowboy writer who made all kinds of jokes about and spoofs of African-Americans.

Bob Boze Bell

Do people forget that Rush Limbaugh got fired from ESPN for racial statements about a football player.

I guess the moral of the story is DON'T put these guys on TV. At first Imus was only getting suspended for two weeks but then advertisers started canceling their commercials – that’s when Imus got fired and I’m sure ESPN saw the threat of lost profits too.

"I may be almost as tired of the sanctimony of the anti-Imus forces as I am of the revolting phenomenon of Don Imus himself."

Get over yourself, Kevin. The "sanctimony" of the anti-Imus forces was driven by the reflexive racism, disingenuous argumentation, and willful ignorance of the pro-Imus forces.

Imus is on the record hiring Bernard McGuirk "to tell the nigger jokes". Anyone who hires a designated nigger joker is a racist scumbag. It is not sanctimonious to chastise racist scumbags.

Typical Kevin Drum. Dude, you never seem to hit all the right notes.

Earth to Phil Nugent: In addition to being a "scary looking black man", Willie Horton was a murderer and a rapist. Governor Dukakis was rightly criticized for bad judgment in releasing this individual on furlough.

As I recall, the point of the furlought was supposed to be to get Horton acclimated to life outside of prison. It's unclear why someone serving a life sentence needed to be acclimated to non-prison life. It's unclear how the populace could gain by having this killer on the loose.

By ignoring what an individual has done, Nugent could criticize any strong action. E.g., I can imagine Nugent blasting Winston Churchill and FDR for going to war against a "scary-looking white man" and a "scary-looking yellow man."

t

Mr. Nugent should have given Howard Stern more of a chance. The view from the other side of these news conferences was quite different. One of Howard's points was that morning radio doesn't have to be local. Rather than pander to the particular local market he was entering, he would take the opportunity at these press conference to flaunt his complete ignorance of the local market to great comedic effect.

What is interesting to me is that the worst element of the "nappy-headed ho" slur - "ho" - meaning whore - is more sexist than racist, and yet the sexism part seems easier to overlook than the racism part for everyone I've heard of discuss the matter except over at Shakesville.

Also, Kevin, does pointing this out and saying Imus's comment offends me as a woman really come across as "sanctimony"? If it does, I would like to suggest you recalibrate your sanctimony meter.

As a culture, we still need to be able to point out racism and sexism when we hear it without being called santimonious. Or whiny. Or bleeding heart. Or wimpy (Kevin, if you meant the label more narrowly, specifics would be nice)

Sharpton, apparently is the only black person in America and represents all blacks on the planet. Apparently, blacks own all of the media outlets and content platforms and therefore can control their image. Blacks were responsible for booking Sharpton. And anti-imus people are just as bad as imus. And what about the shooting victims today, why are wallowing in victimhood? They should just move on and stop trying to blame the shooter. Kevin, why dont you get a few black friends to hang out with.

And the next time I screw up at work (something Imus did), I will say to my boss, "Well what about Sharpton? Why are you being so hypocrytical?" Does that work for any of you guys when you screw up at work?

I love how Howard Stern has progressed (in this excerpt at least) from being one of those awful shock jocks to being the guy who points out the ridiculousness of the genre. Maybe Stern is right; he *is* an original.

I remember when Stern used to be on WNBC in new york, and imus was on at the same time. billboard ads linked the two -- Imus in the morning! Stern in the afternoon! -- which apparently Howard hated because he could never stand Imus.

Sharpton may not be the only black person in America, but he's the only one who consistently steps up to the media plate and defends blacks against racism in all forms. Sure, he's had a couple of big misses. But what would blacks do without him? Jesse Jackson's wiener has gone limp with age.

God Bless Al Sharpton.

Al at 2:21 says exactly the same as every other winger hack: Imus + Duke lacrosse prosecution. Do they have a central office somewhere?

What would blacks do w/o Sharpton? Most blacks dont like sharpton. Only the media likes him, so they can beat up on him. If Sharpton/Jackson did not open their mouths and rap music did not exist, what would be the excuse then?

God Bless Al Sharpton.
Posted by: bob

Twana Brawley.

One can have no time for Imus without saying "God bless" to a guy who called for a "white interloper" to be driven from a neighborhood, and stood silent while an associate next to him asserted that a "cracker" would be made to "suffer", in the weeks preceding the white interloper's business being the site of mass murder. One doesn't have to say "God bless" regarding a guy who denounced "diamond merchants" at the funeral of young boy of African descent who was killed accidentally by a Hasidic Jew driving a car, a funeral which preceded a progrom which resulted a different Jew being murdered.

Of course, one doesn't have to invite such a person to speak at a national political convention, either, but that isn't as bad a calling on a deity to bless a person who engages in such actions.

The New Orleans "guy" is actually two guys - Walton and Johnson.

They're still on the air.

Haven't listened to them in years, so I don't know if they still do the gay/black/redneck schtick, but they certainly beat it to death for years...

...actually, now that I check their website, I see that they do:

http://www.waltonandjohnson.com/main/

LfoD, I agree that Sharpton does not carry a lot of credibility with a large percentage of Americans of African descent, which makes it all the more bewildering that the leadership of the Democratic Party would so closely associate with someone with his track record.

"pogrom", of course. Sheesh, I cannot type.

"It's true that Imus made the scandal possible for contriving to build a sort of perfect storm situation around himself."

I think that's exactly right. It was a combination of circumstances that led to Imus's dismissal, including the fact that Imus's act was legitimized by the journalists and politicians who frequented his show. If Howard Stern had said the same thing, I don't think it would have had the impact that it did.

So AmericanHawk is now posting as sportsfan?

bob: Sharpton may not be the only black person in America, but he's the only one who consistently steps up to the media plate and defends blacks against racism in all forms

The trouble is, the biggest area of gain for blacks today isn't fighting racism -- it's education. Sharpton's defense of the Rutgers BB team was appropriate, but it won't affect their careers. OTOH, a lack of education, especially in the sciences, will affect their careers.

How many of you know that David Blackwell, Prof. Emeritus of Mathematics at UC Berkeley, is the co-creator of an entire field of mathematics? What would it mean if more black children took Blackwell as their model? If they believed that a natural career path for them was to become scientists? What would it mean if they (and we) demanded that inner city education was improved so that inner city kids would be technically qualified?

Until fairly recently, Blacks truly were victims. Focusing on their victimhood was useful approach to motivate the passage of civil rights acts, voting acts, affirmative action, etc. But, that approach is pretty much played out.

It's time for blacks to move to a new approach: becoming so well qualified that they naturally get the highest level jobs.

bob-

I'm one of those "lefty-moderates" who think words are just words...but I love you. Will you marry me?

Sincerely,

theperegrine

A disturbing thing to consider is whether Imus would have gotten canned if the maniac at Virginia Tech had gone on his rampage last Monday, and driven the attention focused on Imus elsewhere. So much of our public morality, or at least it's realization in institutional behavior, is largely situationally driven.

Given that the party our friend Will Allen reflexively supports on this board has its members, at the highest level (you don't get much higher than VP) go on the radio show of an unrepentant "Take the bone out of your nose" racist on a fairly regular business, Will has no credibility when complaining about anyone's race-baiting.

Didn't you, Will Allen, vote for the team that sends the VP to racist radio? Twice? Even after knowing that they had started a war of aggression against the Iraqi people (thereby endorsing their racist war with your vote)? How many people died because of Sharpton? How many people died because the Republican Party supported George W. Bush?

Noel, I have voted for Republicans less than 50% of the time in Presidential elections. If that makes me part of their party "reflexively", well, that simply indicates that you are either too dumb to grasp what the word "reflexive" means, or are simply a liar. Which is it?

Disputo: So AmericanHawk is now posting as sportsfan?

I don't know. But he's not the only one who likes Pie.

You have to install firefox, the Greasemonkey plugin for firefox , and the Washington Monthly script for Greasemonkey. Then you can edit the page to www.washingtonmonthly.com/* and you can enter the offeners: i.e., var baddies = new Array("Al", "ex-liberal", "etc.");

Ralph Nader has the best commentary I've seen on the Don Imus matter.

Outrageous Words, Outrageous Deeds
by Ralph Nader
April 16, 2007
CommonDreams.org

So AmericanHawk is now posting as sportsfan?
Posted by: Disputo

No, (pending word from above) I think sportsfan is an independent loony on a par with rdw

Next ex-liberal will be telling us about Percy Julian. Suggesting that blacks should concentrate on "becoming so well qualified that they naturally get the highest level jobs" belittles tha fact that many of the do become that qualified, but they don't get the highest level jobs.

That's not to say that kids today shouldn't aim for MBAs instead of the MBA.

Re: Howard Stern. I only listened to him once about 25 years ago, on a long, long ride to the airport in a taxi. He could have been Imus, but at least he picked a victim who was more powerful (though it may not have seemed so at the time) than a few girl baskeball players. His victim of that day was African-American as well, no real surprise there. Stern was taunting Bill Cosby, whose career was then in the doldrums, with invitations to his audience to call in with "a few jokes for Bill," to help him out. It was sickening.

Of course, shortly thereafter Cosby got one of the most successful TV situation comedies of all time and is now one of the most wealthy men in America. Bet Howard hasn't mentioned him since then. I certainly didn't listen to find out if he would.

ex-liberal on April 16, 2007 at 4:44 PM:

..if they (and we) demanded that inner city education was improved so that inner city kids would be technically qualified?

As if that hasn't been happening for decades already, ex-lib...open your damned eyes.

So do you plan to address the real underlying issue with inner-city education - poverty - or are you going to shill for charter schools and school vouchers?

I'm black, and have an MBA from an elite college and work as an analyst for a F500. Most of the blacks on TV are caricatures. None of the blacks on TV (except the journalists) are representative of the race. I find it condescending to talk about 'black problems'. What if I went to a poor community in Appalachia,, and used it to talk about what 'whites' need to do. there will always be poor people, but they are not representative of a particular race. It would be nice if the networks could find another black in the country besides sharpton.

absent observer,

And you also have to fix a couple bugs in the script....

ex-liberal, given that the basic sciences are quite low-paying, unless you go into medicine or engineering, I don't think that the poor should be taking science professors as a model. It's a formula for a long career of low-paying postdoctoral fellowships and fighting for one of a few limited professorships.

Absent observer(2:25)--

Let me help you out...

Stupid, there were 5000 comments attacking Nancy Grace. (full stop)

As for Sharpton, I'll let him explain, as he did on Fox News Sunday. I haven't found video...and the linked transcript doesn't do the exchange justice. Chris Wallace tried to do Rev. Al like he tried to do Bill Clinton, and came off as a smarmy, uninformed turd - pretty much par for the course at FNC.

Just watching FNC so you don't have to. Y'all can thank me later.

Kevin, would you explain the "sanctimonious" comment further? Who was being santimonious? In what way?

grape_crush,

Thanks - Now, if you take over the Five PM PST time, I could concentrate on Olbermann, instead of switching back and forth between BillO's Entertainment Special and Keith.

Do let us know if BillO says anything "Pithy".

And, I pity you for your endeavor, but give Kudos for your fortitude.

Well, Anenke, your point is well-taken... its all about the racism, isn't it? Even though Imus was brought down in large part not by Sharpton, but rather by ticked off female staffers at NBC, a well-timed editorial by Gwen Ifill, and of course the utterly dignified statements of the Rutgers coach and team.

The real lesson from the Imus imbroglio is that diversity works just like we (liberals, feminists) said it would. Get more of our people on the inside, and eventually you'll start to see a difference in the outcomes of decision-making.

What is interesting to me is that the worst element of the "nappy-headed ho" slur - "ho" - meaning whore - is more sexist than racist, and yet the sexism part seems easier to overlook than the racism part for everyone I've heard of discuss the matter except over at Shakesville.

1. I'd like to see how you're measuring "sexist" versus "racist". Imus would have never called them "hos" if they were black men *or* white women, so I see that as a wash wrt intent on Imus' part.

2. I don't think the sexist part is overlooked so much as the organized push back was coming initially and primarily from black organizations, and so influenced the terms of the public debate. If NOW or other women's organizations has jumped on this with as much fervor as PUSH, while PUSH had just issued press releases, you'd have since the emphasis inverted.

Not your best by a long shot KEvin.

Gabriel puts it well:

"I may be almost as tired of the sanctimony of the anti-Imus forces as I am of the revolting phenomenon of Don Imus himself."

Get over yourself, Kevin. The "sanctimony" of the anti-Imus forces was driven by the reflexive racism, disingenuous argumentation, and willful ignorance of the pro-Imus forces.

Imus is on the record hiring Bernard McGuirk "to tell the nigger jokes". Anyone who hires a designated nigger joker is a racist scumbag. It is not sanctimonious to chastise racist scumbags."

If your name was Markos Moulitsas, you'd be facing a blogger boycott right now.

grape_crush wrote: "...if they (and we) demanded that inner city education was improved so that inner city kids would be technically qualified?"

As if that hasn't been happening for decades already, ex-lib...open your damned eyes.

Sadly, it hasn't been happening. The average black student is 4 years behind his/her white counterpart. That's what today's education is producing.

So do you plan to address the real underlying issue with inner-city education - poverty

Many years ago, I attended an inner city school in a poor neighborhood through sixth grade. Yet, when I moved to a more upscale suburban school system, I was not behind. Poverty alone is not the problem. We will never end poverty, but that's no excuse for letting so many kids fester in rotten schools.

- or are you going to shill for charter schools and school vouchers?

Right. Children in bad schools should have alternatives -- a means to escape. Also even a decent school may not be working some of its students. They should have the opportunity to try something else. All students (and their parents) should have a choice, not just the rich ones.

P.S. the enormous growth of Home Schooling is evidence of how bad our schools are. Parents are turning down the free use of professional teachers and education structures. They feel that they can do better, despite having no training and without a structure behind them. And, statistics show that they are doing better.

Phil Nugent delivers the first Don Imus rant that actually kept me semi-riveted all the way to the end

Drop the pretense. You are as fascinated as anyone else.

Disputo, from what I've read, Imus has referred to his wife as a "ho", as charming as that is. I presume that she is white, given I've never seen it reported that Imus is married to a black woman.

Wow.

Imus calls his wife a "ho" on the air?

I'm speechless.

That guy is more of an asshole than I had possibly imagined.

Nobody says what we are all thinking when we hear Nappy headed Ho.Condi Rice.

Disputo, I don't know where you get the idea that Imus wouldn't have called the women whores if they were white. Aren't you trying to say he *isn't* sexist? I find that fascinating.

In addition, I don't think you really know where the "organized push" was coming from. The media chooses to highlight their darlings, and that usually doesn't reflect what's happening on the ground. The Feminist Majority was on this from the beginning, but the media doesn't pay attention to them unless some wackjob has spitroasted a fetus or something, and even then you're more likely to get Gloria Alred. Don't mistake what you see on the tee-vee for reality. From what I've heard, the real and truly influential pushback was from staff, journalists, and concerned individuals from the ranks of the sponsors.

...becoming so well qualified that they naturally get the highest level jobs. ex-lax on at 4:44 PM

It would be nice if the networks could find another black in the country besides sharpton.LfoD at 5:19 PM

... The average black student is 4 years behind his/her white counterpart... ex-lax at 6:01 PM

,,, presume that she is white...Will Allen at 6:04 PM

Everyone's trying to put Imus in historical and cultural context in order to make sense out of his popularity and whether he is "no worse than" others who are equally offensive. Consistency and parity are not necessarily virtues when it comes to public speech norms.

ex-liberal: would vouchers allow a poor family to send their children to whatever schools they chose?
If private schools were forced by law to accept a school voucher as sufficient tuition, that might be a good idea.
If, on the other hand, it's just the money that the school district spends on him, and all those other schools can refuse to admit a kid on a voucher, how is that an improved choice?
If a kid's education is suffering from inadequate funding, how is it a good idea giving the kid his inadequate portion and bidding his parents to go find another school--which, if it depends on the vouchers for money, will also be a poor school?

"That guy is more of an asshole than I had possibly imagined."

... because its one thing to call women you've never met whores to an audience of millions of listeners, but to say it about your wife is, well, extra bad..??

Home schooling - Still wonder what would have worse; home schooling by Barb or spending frivilous hours at Phillips Exeter, Yale and Harvard? Tough call.

Yes, would the pundits' booking agents please take both Sharpton and Jackson out of their automatic "racial" call up as well as Falwell, Robertson and Dobson out of the "religious" one.

Nobody says what we are all thinking when we hear Nappy headed Ho

I think of malnourished, maltreated, dressed in rags, unbathed slave children that European, Christian owners sexually abused. That is why it is a detestable epithet to me.

As Wilton Mizner once said:

Treat a whore like a lady, and a wife like a whore.

Ah, the slings and arrows descend.

Aren't you trying to say he *isn't* sexist? I find that fascinating.

Good lawd, can you not read? My argument was that it was equally racist and sexist (it is a "wash"). Don't start attacking me with ridiculous strawmen just because you have no response to my question.

In addition, I don't think you really know where the "organized push" was coming from.... The Feminist Majority was on this from the beginning, but the media doesn't pay attention to them unless some wackjob has spitroasted a fetus or something, and even then you're more likely to get Gloria Alred. Don't mistake what you see on the tee-vee for reality.

Boy, you're just full of the insults today, aren't you? Right, I'm just sitting in front of my TV all day.... can't argue the facts, so you just attack, huh?

Look, you were complaining because Imus' sexism wasn't getting as much TV play as his racism, I explained to you why that is (black organizations were pushing this much harder than women's orgs getting most of the media attention), and now you are complaining about and belitting black organizations that were getting most of the media attention? At least make up your mind what you are arguing about.

Oh, yeah, I was out there supporting PUSH. WTF were you and the Feminist Majority doing?

because its one thing to call women you've never met whores to an audience of millions of listeners, but to say it about your wife is, well, extra bad..??

That you don't even understand the difference between the words "ho" and "whore" goes far toward explaining why you don't understand how "ho" is racist.

I'm out of this argument until you get off your kneejerk soapbox and familiarize yourself with the basic issues.

her request that Imus supporters stop sending hate mail and death threats to the girls of Rutgers

Wow. Every new thing I hear about Imus and his supporters forces me to make a new category to place him in.

Brojo, how do you carry the load? My God, man! Hair shirts are sooo 1425. I know you actually do stuff to help, so give yourself a break. Your melancholia isn't helping anyone, it is only making you miserable. (And sometimes you're contagious). I don't think you deserve to feel miserable for the sins committed by others before you were even born. Lighten up on yourself.

Disputo - time for the pre-dinner drink, guy. Holy cow. Have a problem with anger, much?

Disputo:Every new thing I hear about Imus and his supporters forces me to make a new category to place him in.

maybe you should say, him and his supporters? I spent a lot of time in the car on Saturday listening to talk radio blowhards talk about how he's being crucified for one mistake. Everything he said before is now down the memory hole.

I agree with what Gwen Ifill (the reporter he once called "the cleaning lady") said yesterday. To parpahrase her: He's not sorry for what he said. He's sorry he got caught.

BGRS: I don't think you deserve to feel miserable for the sins committed by others before you were even born.

You might be right that Brojo shouldn't take on so much of the load for himself, but if you imagine that the "I think of malnourished, maltreated, dressed in rags, unbathed slave children that European, Christian owners sexually abused." is in the past you're not paying attention. Okay, they're not formally slaves, and not formally owned, but rich white men (and, to be fair, rich men of other races too) are still exploiting the misery of young women.

Disputo:Every new thing I hear about Imus and his supporters forces me to make a new category to place him in.

My personal experience with his listeners has not been good. Last year, when Ana Marie Cox appeared on his show promoting her book, his listeners came out in force to her book reading that evening and the results were not pretty. They really disrupted the event. My take on it was above, but this guy described the scene well.

Have a problem with anger, much?

Yeah, I get angry when people insult me for no reason. What is your excuse?

That image of slave children came to me when I was trying to explain what 'nappy headed' meant to an English as a second language person. He did not know 'ho' was slang for whore, either.

I feel bad for those children, even if they are lost in the spirals of time.

He's not sorry for what he said. He's sorry he got caught.

No doubt about that. I find it especially repugnant that he keeps pointing to his supposed good deeds as if they offset the evil he has done. They do not.

Will Allen, that you have defended yourself against an attack not made demonstrates that you have the reading comprehension of a slow five-year-old, or you are embarassed to admit that you do, in fact, reflexively attack anyone to the left of Ben Stein on this board, or (I suppose) it could be that you have proffered the "liar" attack as a bit of projection. Whatever the answer, you certainly failed in your rather pathetic attempt to distract from your support for the violent regime that attacked the people of Iraq.

The question isn't who you voted for 30-years-ago, the question is whether those who have most currently earned your vote play nicely with the racists. The Democrats don't have the same connection to Sharpton that the people you voted for do with Limbaugh. And Sharpton isn't a cheerleader for the mass slaughter of anyone - something you can't say either for Limbaugh or yourself.

That image of slave children came to me when I was trying to explain what 'nappy headed' meant to an English as a second language person. He did not know 'ho' was slang for whore, either.

I feel bad for those children, even if they are lost in the spirals of time.

Posted by: Brojo on April 16, 2007 at 7:35 PM | PERMALINK

Are those the same "spirals of time" (WTF?) that enable you to --- after six years of George Bush's --- still defend your vote for Ralph Nader? A vote, which of course, helped make his election possible? Just curious.

I'm paying attention, thanks. I know horrible and atrocious things are happening. I was specifically addressing the past based on previous interactions with Brojo.

No, noel, you illiterate twit, you prefaced you remarks, with this assertion....

"Given that the party our friend Will Allen reflexively supports on this board has its members....."

....which either proves you don't know what the term "reflexively" means, since I haven't voted for the Republican candidate for Presiden even 50% or more of the time in the last five elections, and less frequently in other races, or you are a liar. Well, are you a moron, or a liar?

As to your other idiocies, does the Democratic Party normally give one of the finite number of speaking slots at their convention to people they aren't closely connected to? Just how dumb are you?

@ David in NY

"Bet Howard hasn't mentioned him [Bill Cosby] since then"

Thats a bet you'd lose.

Everyone who thinks Phil was comparing Howard Stern to Imus needs to go back and re-read that anecdote. Phil's comparison is between the New Orleans dude and Imus.

pbg: I have never known a time in America in which Being Born Black wasn't a count against the person.

It's both a count against and a count for. A few years ago, my company CEO asked me to fill a vacancy with a minority. This was a well-paid position requiring a high degree of math skills I hired an Asian woman. He chewed me out, explaining that he meant me to hire a black.

In fact, there had been no black applicants. Unfortunately, the number of qualified blacks is quite small. A black person who achieves ordinary qualifications in this field will instantly have a wide choice of job offers.

pbg: If private schools were forced by law to accept a school voucher as sufficient tuition, that might be a good idea.

Yes, the late Milton Friedman, who popularized vouchers, favored large vouchers that would pay full tuition at a typical private or parochial school.

If a kid's education is suffering from inadequate funding, how is it a good idea giving the kid his inadequate portion and bidding his parents to go find another school--which, if it depends on the vouchers for money, will also be a poor school?

Money is always nice, but it's not the reason inner city schools are bad. Most of these schools have lots of money. Washington D.C. spends more per pupil than most districts.

I see the inadequate vouchers as a stepping stone. Vouchers of, say, $2000 - $3000, aren't enough to pay a full tuition. However, if vouchers are tried and if they prove successful, they may be raised over time. At least, I hope so. That's the best hope for black advancement IMHO.

Disputo, I think you just read stuff that isn't there. Okay, point by point:

"Good lawd, can you not read? My argument was that it was equally racist and sexist (it is a "wash"). Don't start attacking me with ridiculous strawmen just because you have no response to my question."

-- You said Imus would not have called a man or a white woman a "ho" (which is commonly understood to mean whore). I wasn't sure what to make of that, but presumed it meant the insult wasn't generically sexist. I know you also called it a "wash" - equally sexist and racist, so they cancel each other out - but I don't get the logic there.

"Boy, you're just full of the insults today, aren't you? Right, I'm just sitting in front of my TV all day.... can't argue the facts, so you just attack, huh?"

"Look, you were complaining because Imus' sexism wasn't getting as much TV play as his racism, I explained to you why that is (black organizations were pushing this much harder than women's orgs getting most of the media attention), and now you are complaining about and belitting black organizations that were getting most of the media attention? At least make up your mind what you are arguing about."

-- I wasn't complaining about Imus's sexism not getting as much tv play as his racism. I was commenting on how in discussions of the Imus situation, commenters dwell almost exclusively on the racist aspect with nary a nod towards the sexism. Further, I was saying that the ongoing commentary is re-writing the story of what happened. Because what happened was Imus was brought down by a dual concern over racism and sexism, by individuals who were concerned about both. Some of these individuals have been more focused on one issue or the other, but concern about both issues played a significant - I would venture to say equal - role. But in the re-hashing of the story, the importance of the reaction to sexism is steadily being erased.

-- I never complained about or belittled black organizations. Not sure where you got that from. All I am saying is that (I am betting) you don't really know how much any given organization worked to get their message out. You are assuming that because sexism isn't getting as much coverage, women's organizations must not have worked as hard or as early. The fact is that some people (like Sharpton) are in the rolodex, and others aren't. Whether you are "insider" or "outsider" basically dictates whether the MSM gives you a platform - not expertise, not grassroots support, not organizational effort. That's why I mentioned Gloria Alred - even if the MSM were going to cover sexism, they would most likely turn to a "personality" like her rather than someone with more credibility.

-- Further, you seem to be saying that racism is the predominant topic in the MSM because black organizations were out front in framing the story, assuming they pushed racism to the exclusion of sexism. I don't think that's true.

-- The reasons why sexism hasn't been discussed, I propose, are: (1) for a great many people, it is a lot more uncomfortable to talk about misogyny than to talk about racism; (2) other people think it is a non-issue; and (3) still other people think its an issue but it doesn't concern them / its not important / they couldn't care less.

"Oh, yeah, I was out there supporting PUSH. WTF were you and the Feminist Majority doing?"

-- Um, good for you re: PUSH. You seem to think I work for the Feminist Majority or something; I don't. But as for what I was doing... well, I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to k... oh, you know.

Money is always nice, but it's not the reason inner city schools are bad. Most of these schools have lots of money. Washington D.C. spends more per pupil than most districts.

Have you ever seen the inside of a Washington, DC public school? What do you think that their crumbling infrastructure should be fixed with? Fairy dust? I'll take money, thanks very much.

Will, you illiterate toad, you even managed to quote the phrase "on this board" and still not understand what that phrase means. Talking about what you did in secret (we have no evidence for your voting record and it wouldn't matter if we did) long ago tells us little about what you've done on this board. If you had the wit of a blind squirrel it would at least give you a chance to come up with an insult more clever than "how dumb are you." Perhaps you should go back to searching for your nuts.

As to your attempts to deflect from the racists that are at the heart of the tribe you continually support on this board, you've got nothing. Even if Sharpton were 1% as bad as the racists and sexists (remind me who popularized that neologism "feminazi"?) that Dick Cheney pals around with it still wouldn't give you a point. See, the Presidential candidates you've consistently voted for over the past decade have murdered (at lowest estimate) tens of thousands of human beings. Their ever-shifting rationales for why those people had to die demonstrates a clear disregard for human life. That they are brown skinned makes it an easy sell to the racists.

The facts remain Will Allen, promoter of death, you have no standing to complain about someone else's historical racism while those you support still practice it in the most violent manner possible.

I think if you check this years transcripts of Imus show you will find he declared himself a Republican. Imus lived by the sword, he died by it. He suffered the fate of all shock jocks which is they will eventually tick off a target and be driven from the air. The only lesson to be learned from the entire episode is if you hire a bigot, pair him with a bigot producer, let him get away for years with all sorts of racist, anti semitic, homophobic slurs, he will cross a line and your corporation will ultimately be humiliated.

The point, noel, you squealing chimp, is that a sample size of two elections (which is the only example on this board where I've indicated support for the Republican party; Bush v. Gore, and Bush v. Kerrey) does not provide any chance to determine whether a person's choice is "reflexive", thus making it necessary, whenever possible, to examine a larger sample size, in order to test the hypothesis of a reflexive nature. Do you have any notion at all regarding the meanings of the words you write? Anything even approximating a glimmer of insight? Or do you just stumble around in the ether, randomly sending signals through copper and fiber optics, in the hope that purely by chance a rational thought may appear, mirage-like, in the vast wasteland that is your mind?

Go fling your feces elsewhere.

Are those the same "spirals of time" (WTF?) that enable you to... defend your vote for Ralph Nader?

Yeats spoke of spirals of time. Constitutional rights make me think I can vote for whomever I desire without abuse from DLC enforcers.

It is curious my reference to the abuse of slave children stimulates you to respond to my voting preferences.

Willie Boy Allen:

... a sample size of two elections (which is the only example on this board where I've indicated support for the Republican party; Bush v. Gore, and Bush v. Kerrey) does not provide any chance to determine whether a person's choice is "reflexive", thus making it necessary, whenever possible, to examine a larger sample size, in order to test the hypothesis of a reflexive nature.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Any man who has to switch between parties over a period of say four or five Presidential elections is a feckless, meandering soul who believes in nothing.

Let me spell it out for you sir: It goes, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Reagan, Bush I, Bush I, Dole, Bush II and Bush II for me. That's my voting record for the last thirty-five years. That's what I believe in. If you're claiming you voted for Democrats in that mix, WHICH ONES? Carter? Dukakis? Mondale? And spare me the outrage you're foisting on others--if you haven't voted straight Republican since before 1972, then there is something so seriously wrong with you I doubt whether it can be addressed in polite society.

Do you have any notion at all regarding the meanings of the words you write? Anything even approximating a glimmer of insight? Or do you just stumble around in the ether, randomly sending signals through copper and fiber optics, in the hope that purely by chance a rational thought may appear, mirage-like, in the vast wasteland that is your mind?

What is stunning is that this para represents you quite effectively, Willie Boy. You're not a conservative in any sense of the word--you're a lost and wandering Internet crank, and we get a lot of them here. You profess to be conservative only because conservatives are usually the ones on the outs around here. And when real conservatives like myself parse your weak and pathetic arguments (because, really, what fun is it to parse Bush Sux!!! over and over again?) you hop up and down and holler your little epithets and get your Internet jollies over being noticed.

And that's what you crave--someone to notice that you're in pain, can't connect with people, and you're certainly not political in any way. You're just pathetic, in every way.

Go fling your feces elsewhere.

Said the monkey with poo congealed in his fist...

No, Norman, I'm not a conservative, have never claimed to be a conservative, and your mind is apparently incapable of logical reasoning. Sheesh.

You also apparently have abandoned your regimen of distilled water and pure grain alcohol.

No, Norman, I'm not a conservative, have never claimed to be a conservative, and your mind is apparently incapable of logical reasoning. Sheesh.

Oh, you're a whiner who can't choose a side. I apologize--all that bluster you gave off must have been from a pathetic, lonely man who cannot connect with others and just wants to be noticed. Sorry, I was SOOOO-OO wrong about that...

You also apparently have abandoned your regimen of distilled water and pure grain alcohol.

No, just a fine wine now and then, the good stuff, the stuff clowns like you have never tasted. I enjoy the finer things. I know exactly where I stand and I have no misgivings or qualms about what I believe in. That's why I give liberals hell and tell people how things really are.

You just beg to be noticed. How sad is that?

Posted by: Will Allen on April 16, 2007 at 11:29 PM | PERMALINK

Norman, do women sense your power?

Is it just me, or has the quality of Norman's performance art improved over time? At first he was just angry at Kevin and his posts were non-stop insults about how stupid he thought Kevin was. Now he's spinning off into a feces-flinging fan of hostility towards just about everyone. It's really a thing of beauty, in a multi-car accident on the highway sort of way.

But I think if Imus is to be fired, Rosie O'Donnell should also be fired for her racism against Chinese people on the View.

(Give me a break. If we started a list of "who should be fired", right-wingers better get a very large bus for their own. )

It was wonderful to read something on the subject that didn't sound like the same old overkill. Thank you.

WTF? I tune in just in time for a will allen/Norman Rogers smackdown? cool!

noel: do we really want to be defending Sharpton (who, you gotta admit, is a loose cannon at best)by saying comparatively that he's better than Rush Limbaugh? isn't that setting the bar kind of low?

Poor Will, his support over the last decade for the party of death means nothing to him. He picked the least capable of the three candidates twice and is defensive about it. Here's a hint you partisan hack - every post you've made on Political Animal and Washington Monthly has been about how bad the Democrats are. You are reflexively (that word you seem not to understand) anti-Democratic and continually spout nonsense about the party and about any individual who points out your intellectual weaknesses. I'm sorry that you can't simply admit that the party where you've cast your vote for President in the last decade is the party of racism and death (also incompetence, mendacity, and greed).

It's a simple thing Mr. Allen:

I, Will Allen, have spent the last eight years (or so) attacking nearly every Democrat mentioned on this board and voting for the least competent man ever to disgrace the office of President and have continued to support his policies even as they have led to massive death and destruction of brown-skinned people far away. It has not been my intent to be a racist asshole, that my positions are indistinguishable from said racist assholes is purely an artifact of my limited ability to reason. It is that same limited ability to reason that allows me to support the friends of those whose racist, sexist and homophobic rants continue every day and attempt to deflect attention away from that support by mentioning events from nearly two decades ago which are neither relevant nor reflect the degree and depth of hatemongering I've supported with my vote.

Oops, you're right, it differs in two other respects - first, it is clearly written and second, it is true.

URK, I haven't defended Sharpton, I've attacked the partisan hack Will Allen for bringing Sharpton into the discussion as if somehow the Democrats were the party of racism because of bad acts by a Democrat years ago. Sorry if that wasn't clear. And, let's be honest, Limbaugh is only the loudest of the racists in Will Allen's tribe. He is, in fact, a little more circumspect than those who don't have quite his audience - in the same way that Reagan was more circumspect than Thurmond because he too had to appear before a national audience.

noel, help is available. Now, how many of my posts must I reprint here which do not mention Democrats, before you will understand the depth of your psychosis? Also, you really don't understand at all what you write, do you? Even if your latest assertion were true, which it isn't, to say that a person is reflexively anti-x is not the same thing as saying the person is reflexively pro-y. Not even close. You are astoundingly dim-witted. Congratulations.

Why anybody would think it notable that a personal attack would be returned in kind is always a source of wonder, or would be, if it were not so easily explained by a cretinous mind.

noel, you incomparably illiterate dunce, it was not me who introduced Sharpton into the discussion. Are you able to get through a Dr. Seuss book and accurately summarize it's content?

You really should consider filing suit against more than one educational institution.

Norman, do women sense your power?

Sir, they go weak in the knees and I've actually seen puddles form.

Is it just me, or has the quality of Norman's performance art improved over time?

Thank you for finally noticing. No, I have no beef with Drum. He's too liberal and he's quick to send his interns to delete anything that might upset this teetering apple cart. I am here to explain how things work, and I do it well. What's missing is a real liberal voice of reason, someone smart and charming who can actually debate without firing off profanities and lies.

No, I have no beef with Drum.

Ahem. We remember your "Dumbo" name-calling phase.

Ahem. We remember your "Dumbo" name-calling phase.

Well, Kevin Dumbo was appropo in those days. Thankfully, he's improved. Witness any number of attacks levelled against him by the wooly-headed hippie liberals who have shouted down all of their reasoned opponents. This blog is full of Nader voters who screech about vegan food, slaughtering animals for food, Wicca, atheism--why, if I want to talk about Native Americans, I cannot even use the term "Honest Injun" without invoking a firestorm of protest. I can't even make a reference to how Bill Clinton is the Democratic Party's tar baby--once he gets part of someone, they are attached to him and beholden to him.

I can't even talk about my two fists--Archibald and Haymaker--without some liberal getting huffy at me. And never mind me talking about my wealth, my good looks, or my love life.

BGRS --

A little late, my apologies for accusing you of "not paying attention." I would have said what I was trying to say differently but it was the end of a long day and I.

Nugent's screed wouldn't even make your blog Kevin. Beyond being a Dennis Miller-like liberal rant, it's so filled with generalizations and stereotyping of the kind that has painted the left tag of snobbery whether deserved or undeserved. That's why it was only worth one paragraph of notice, not the Op-Ed Page of the New York Times. Their standards tend to be higher and they also do not drop F-bombs either.

by saying comparatively that he's better than Rush Limbaugh? isn't that setting the bar kind of low?

It's setting the bar at it's max. Rush is the pinnacle. He is by far the most influencial man in the media, TV, Radio or Print. All of the racism, sexism charges are merely standard operating prodedure for the jealous chattering classes trying to take him down. It's just not possible. He owns Talk Radio for a reason. He's a smart, articulate guy with a terrific sense of humor and a loving soul. He cares deeply about America and our future. It's fine to disagree with him. That's what Democracy is all about. But don't count on him going away. He is exceptionally skilled at his craft and extremely useful.

That's why Dick Cheney will often go in with Rush for 20 minutes or longer fairly frequently. He can reach 30x's as many people as the NYTs immediately and then as other radio shows, blogs and Fox pick up the feed his reach exceeds that of the MSM.

Reagan felt he had to meet with the Editorial board of the NYTs often. Rush is why Bush ignores the NYTs completely and why Cheney wil take a smaller plan just so he