Why am I reminded of Capt. Renault?

"I am shocked to find there is gambling going on here at Rick's"

I am shocked to find out that business is against immigration if it means higher wages. Just shocked.

Why am I annoyed every time someone posts a Capt. Renault quote?

I saw a table of government statistics showing that the Clinton administration conducted immigration enforcement raids of U.S. employers (to round up and deport illegals) between 300 and 400 times per year, on average. Under Bush, that dropped to 8 to 10 per year.
These guys talk the talk about border security and enforcing the laws, but for them, the immigration issue is all about cheap labor and union busting. That's, in large part, the reason the stock market and productivity keep climbing, but wages for average Americans remain flat.

I'm with Kevin on this one. Business is being piggy. I am sympathetic to this complaint:

David Isaacs, director of federal affairs at the Hewlett-Packard Company, said in a letter to the Senate that “a ‘merit-based system’ would take the hiring decision out of our hands and place it squarely in the hands of the federal government.”

I am concerned that the government may not use this power appropriately.

BTW in my limited experience with H1B visas, I learned that when the visa-holder changes job, s/he needs a new H1B visa. In principle this may be fairly automatic. In practice, getting the new H1B visa takes months. One may have to hire a lawyer to get it done.

BTW the H1B visa-holder can work here for only 6 years. After that, s/must leave the USA for a year and can then apply for a new HiB visa. The 6-year limit applies whether or not the vis-holder has changed jobs and gotten a new H1B visa.

The usual argument I hear for currently undocumented workers is that they do the work no one else wants to. But this point system seems to be rejecting those who would do such work, while bringing in those who would arguably take jobs from our own current citizens.

Now if we've always needed some form of this, and we're simply modifying the system to make it more fair to the foreign worker, without increasing the numbers coming in, I guess that's a good thing.

But this doesn't seem to support our usual arguments for why more open immigration is desirable.

The trend *I* see is the ever-widening schism between the country-club-big-business Republicans and the flat-earth-nativist Republicans.

The Reagan coalition is finally on the rocks. Good riddance!

"ex-liberal" wrote: I am concerned that the government may not use this power appropriately.

Oh, bullshit. Given your enthusiastic -- and very recent -- support for Executive lawlessness and torture, for Ford's sake, there's no reason at all to believe this statement is made in good faith. After all, why should it be any different this time?

Sadly, Americans are going to learn that immigrants contribute a lot to the welfare of the economy the hard way. It will be similar to the lesson restricting imports had on the economy in the early 1930's.

trainwreck, I'm sure you're only annoyed every time someone posts *that* Capt. Renault quote. The others are far too rarely used.

Since Renault is a man in authority who coerces beautiful foreign women to have sex with him in return for visas, I feel a little more imagination could have produced this one:

"Why do you interfere with my little romances?"

"Put it down as a gesture to love."

"I forgive you this time, but I'll be in tomorrow night with a breathtaking blonde. And it'll make me very happy if she loses."

catherineD: under the current system, skilled American workers compete against indentured servants who risk getting kicked out of the country if they displease their employer. If they work as engineers, they are salaried, they aren't hourly, and can be forced to work long hours.

If instead they can work under the same conditions as American workers, they will be able to get better conditions and higher wages, and so will the American workers. They'll become citizens, they'll be active in their communities, they will help improve the schools.

Gregory, I am concerned that any arm of government may misuse its power. Like you, I am concerned about the conduct of those who seek information from enemy prisoners. However, there's an urgent need to get information from prisoners. Also and there is no alternative group who can quetion them Only the government can do this job.

OTOH there is an alternative to having government bureaucrats guess which abilities will make foreign nationals valuable to US employees. It's more effective to let businesses continue to select workers that who precisely fit their needs.

I hired two workers who needed H1B visas and both were superb. I'm glad I was the one evaluating them. Heaven only knows what the government would have thought.

Kevin Drum: If nothing else, you have to admire the chutzpah Hoffman demonstrates here.

Honesty demands that I admit it, but I certainly don't have to admire it.

Hmmm. Do you detect a trend here?

To be more blatant about what employers want in indentured servants (oops, I mean guest workers). That could be a good thing in the long run.

ex-liberal: I hired two workers who needed H1B visas and both were superb.

I can top that. I hired three workers. One was an LPR, the second a naturalized citizen, and the third a native-born citizen. All three were superb.

And guess what, in all three cases no government intervention was required!

Never change a winning game.

In the '60's America was the technology leader in almost every field with the greatest R&D machine the world has ever know.

After forty years of displacing this talent with low cost third world researchers doing third world level research, U.S. industry is moribund.

I really should be venting with my right wing buds on other sites, but let me add one little factoid to all the others that make this a bad idea: I've read that foreign M.D.'s will get 20 points virtually assuring first class accomodations. Meanwhile pre-med students with 4.0 GPAs can't get into medical school in this country if they are the wrong race and don't have a contact on a school's Board of Governors. Why should the US raid the third world for medical personnel [to the tune of 30 medical school graduating classes every year] while our own students have to play Russian Roulette. This is a bad bill, and I wish you guys would oppose it.

"ex-liberal" wrote: Gregory, I am concerned that any arm of government may misuse its power.

And again, I call bullshit. Your recent disgusting advocacy of torture -- which is a power that, historically, is ripe for abuse -- and your pitiful defense of the politicization of the DoJ -- with nary a peep of concern about the obvious potential for abuse -- mark you as a full-blown authoritarian: As long as your faction has the power, you're all for it. Yuor citation of "government bureaucrats" is a dead giveaway there.

(Needless to say, the need to extract information from prisoners hardly justifies your advocacy of torture -- indeed, the need to extract accurate informaton from prisoners contradicts your justification for torturne, to say nothing of its moral abhorrence. And I note that even there you put your trust in government when it comes to interrogation -- you simply can't conceal your authoritarian streak, "ex-liberal," you jackass.)

You can't post that kind of bullshit and explect anyone to take your claims about concern for abuse of power seriously. But then, you can't post the kind of dishonest bullshit you do here and expect people to take you seriously about anything except as a fullt-time neocon propagandist. Which again raises the question: Why do you bother?

Hoffman's concern, though self-serving, is legitimate. If you are going to make the utility of workers to industry, as both employer sponsorship and the point system attempt to, a a major factor in selecting who gets to come to the US, then it is clear that immediate employer sponsorship responds better to the demands of industry than having government bureaucrats tracking trailing statistics trying to determine what skills are "in demand" and set the appropriate point values for skills.

Of course, those who don't desire the immigration system to be, first and foremost, a tool of capital to avoid increasing salary and benefits to labor might question the logic of having such concerns be primary consideration in immigration, no matter how effective the system is to implement them.

I really should be venting with my right wing buds on other sites

Yes, "minion", you should. Your bullshit is probably welcome there.

ex-liberal: I am concerned that the government may not use this power appropriately.

You mean as opposed to the way the government uses the power to create H-1B visas? While they may not pick individuals, they do pick categories of skills that are eligible for these guest worker visas. And how do they know which categories are in the greatest demand? Why, their creditors (oops, I mean campaign contributors) tell them! No need for BLS data or any other such bureaucratic nonsense - just a CEO's word for it. Remember, people like Bill Gates and other hi-tech titans of industry have no personal interest in this program, but are driven solely by their patriotism.

Meanwhile, if your hospital needs to hire another doctor, it can't be done with an H-1B visa. In fact there are specific immigration limits on doctors.

There is only one solution to the immigration problem.

The US must invade and conquer Mexico, and force her to submit to our labor laws and anti-corruption practices. If Mexicans can get good-paying jobs in Mexico, they'll stop coming to the US. Any other approach does not address the root cause of the problem, and is essentially a band-aid that compromises our values of freedom and equality. Not that we (Americans) actually give a crap about our much vaunted "values". We just like to talk about them. Preferably, on Jerry Springer.

Alex wrote:

ex-liberal: I hired two workers who needed H1B visas and both were superb.

I can top that. I hired three workers. One was an LPR, the second a naturalized citizen, and the third a native-born citizen. All three were superb.

And guess what, in all three cases no government intervention was required!

I hired two workers who needed H1B visas and both were superb.

I didn't realize that you could get H1B visas for prostitutes.

* feeds a troll:

[i]Why should the US raid the third world for medical personnel [to the tune of 30 medical school graduating classes every year] while our own students have to play Russian Roulette.[/i]

The same reason why the US raids engineers and techs from 3rd world pools; to keep the labor down.

I would be staunchly pro-H1B if the US admitted 1/10th the number of lawyers, MDs, accountants, and other guild-protected professions as it has engineers.

I've been managing/selling tech projects during the last decade for large consultancies lncluding the Big O.

We used H1Bs for only one reason - to lower costs and increase margin.

What I always found interesting is that we never took our H1Bs on the sales calls.

I've been managing/selling tech projects during the last decade for large consultancies lncluding the Big O.

We used H1Bs for only one reason - to lower costs and increase margin.

What I always found interesting is that we never took our H1Bs on the sales calls.

I've been managing/selling tech projects during the last decade for large consultancies lncluding the Big O.

We used H1Bs for only one reason - to lower costs and increase margin.

What I always found interesting is that we never took our H1Bs on the sales calls.

Excellent review, sans histrionics, and with lots of data and references, of just what a crock the standard rationalizations for the H-1B visa program are can be found in Prof. Norman Matloff's summary paper and a more detailed study.

CatherineD: But this point system seems to be rejecting those who would do such work, while bringing in those who would arguably take jobs from our own current citizens.

Exactly. The ones that do the crap jobs have to be kept illegal, so they're easier to terrify.

I say...

Cracking down on illegal immigration is the key to re-energizing the American middle class. If they can't pay an illegal $6 an hour to mdo it, they'll have to get Americans to do it and then...

We'll unionize and suddenly a butcher will be able to afford to raise kids... and a landscaper will be able to have a family. wow, imagine it... Americans being paid a living wage to do American work. How cool would that be?

But... first you have to solve the immigration problem... how do you do that? Imagine if americans could sneak into Canada and make $100/hr for basic labor. The borders would bwe choking with the traffic...

So, the key to heading off the incredible volume of illegal immigration is to remove the economic stimulus and the way to do that is... start slapping CEOs into prison for violating our labor laws and hiring illegals. About the third CEO doing the frog march to Sing Sing will eliminate the employment opportunities for illegal aliens and there will finally be a free market for the labor of Americans.

Everybody wins.

Kevin left out the MOST nauseating quote from the ORacel VP in the NY times story: to wit,

"Mr. Hoffman, the Oracle software executive, said “we have hundreds of unfilled jobs” for which American citizens cannot be found. Mr. Hoffman said the company had identified people from India, China and other countries who were receiving advanced degrees from American universities and would make excellent software engineers, but Oracle could not arrange visas for them."

Sorry, I live in Silicon Valey - home to thousands of unemployed 50-year-old softwre engineers. You know, the smart, seasoned guys who BUILT this industry.

What Oracle MEANS is "We don't want to have to pay a professional, living wage, plus expensive healthcare benefits, for a mature, experienced US engineer. Plus, the 50-year olds are only willing to work 55-60 hours a week, while those twenty-something H1-bs work 100 plus hours a week."

the HI-b program, and "shortage of skilled professionals" are both crap - flimsy rationalizations of US corporations importing thired-world workers - and third world wages - to boost shareholder's bottom lines and screw American workers.

Another egrgious example of this is the medical profession. The US is not graduating NEARLY ENOUGH doctors and nurses to keep up with our aging, expanding polulation.

However, we have NOT expanded our medical and nursing schools to meet the demand - instead, US college students can't get into Med or nursing schools, while we import doctors and (thousands of) nurses from the Phillipines and other third-world countries - all, of course, at a lower wage than native Americans would require.

(I have two extremely qualified friends - biology majors with high GPAs from good schools, who CAN NOT Get IN to nursing schools here in the U.S. There are simply no places.)

Cracking down on illegal immigration is the key to re-energizing the American middle class.

"Cracking down on illegal immigration" is the latest version of the "set laborers against each other" strategy that wealthy capitalists have always used to distract attention from their writing special privileges for themselves into law, and erecting barriers to upward mobility.

While certainly capital uses both influence over the mechanics of the legal system of immigration and the disadvantages associated with the status of illegality as one tool against labor, that's a much smaller hammer than the preferential tax treatment of capital compared to labor. That's what is designed to keep American labor down, and it works. Illegal immigration is, more than any thing, held up to be a continuing source of excuses for "reform" that don't solve any problem but provide new advantages to capital, either in the preferences in the legal system or further marginalization outside of it.

CK Dexter Haven says: start slapping CEOs into prison for violating our labor laws and hiring illegals.

That's a stock "liberal" line. Of course, what happens in practice is that "liberals" like Kevin Drum decry any raids that occur, reducing the possibility of such raids and such prosecutions in the future. In fact, in 2003, speaking in Mexico in response to the show WalmartRaid, NancyPelosi accused the government she works for of conducting "TerrorizingRaids". Such talk tends to not only discourage future raids, it gives aid and comfort to the MexicanGovernment.

In order for something to change, we need to have an impact on the political career of at least one well-known person who supports amnesty/IllegalImmigration in order to send a message to the rest. Here's my suggestion.

Typical that a racist wingnut cannot distinguish between raiding a workplace where illegals work in order to round up the illegals and arresting the actual employers of said illegals.

Robert Hoffman >"...You can't hire a chemical engineer to do the work of a software engineer."..."

That is sooooo much bull crap. Most of the people that built the software business over the last 30+ years were NOT graduates of some fancy hocus pocus university level program in Computer "Science" (rememeber that any discipline that has to call itself a science most likely isn`t one) but people in specific domains that wanted software to assist them doing their work so they leared to write their own (and were darned good at it - think Photoshop for instance...).

As Michele points out, there are tons of savvy software folks just sitting around looking for something to do (while working some crap part time job to survive). Of course most of them aren`t johhny-come-latelys and know the games so called "management" plays to make their bonuses marks. This H1B visa thing is nothing other than an attempt (successful so far) to screw the American non-elite and continue the Reagan Reaction Against Sanity in Economic Afffairs.

"...economics runs around trying to figure out how people rationalized what they just did." - Stirling Newberry

The US must invade and conquer Mexico, and force her to submit to our labor laws and anti-corruption practices. If Mexicans can get good-paying jobs in Mexico, they'll stop coming to the US.

Didn't they already try that with NAFTA?

Disputo >"Typical that a racist wingnut cannot distinguish between..."

They spew what they get paid to spew. Reality has little to do, if anything, with their behavior since having an individual opinion is beyond acceptable; they might not support the official line and therefore not be part of the team.

"...there is an eroticism of money..." - Neue Zurcher Zeitung

Disputo,
Unbelievable isn't it. If I wasn't familiar with other sites, I would swear that Kevin has the most ignorant trolls around. Should I explain to TLB the difference between raiding a factory and hauling out the workers and jailing a CEO for illegal employment practices.

Reminds me of the "jobs Americans won't do" stupidity. Any of the jobs "Americans won't do" for $6/hr would have lines around the block for $18.hr if the free market was allowed.

WalmartRaid ... NancyPelosi ... TerrorizingRaids ... MexicanGovernment

I see our nativist blogwhore hasn't figured out how words work in English yet.

Should I explain to TLB the difference between raiding a factory and hauling out the workers and jailing a CEO for illegal employment practices.

Explain? To TLB? Good luck with that.

My favorite Renault quote:
Rick: Remember, this gun is pointed right at your heart.
Cap Renault: That is my least vulnerable spot.

What were we talking about again?

Michele writes:

Sorry, I live in Silicon Valey - home to thousands of unemployed 50-year-old softwre engineers. You know, the smart, seasoned guys who BUILT this industry.

Where are you getting this data from? I've read that the unemployment rate in IT/software engineering is under 3%.

Andy: I've read that the unemployment rate in IT/software engineering is under 3%.

1. As of 2-3 years ago, IT unemployment was greater than the general rate of unemployment. IT is cyclical, so a currently low unemployment rate doesn't mean "we've got to import lots of guest workers to avoid crippling our economy with a labor shortage".

2. Pay is rising no faster than inflation, so there's obviously no "shortage".

3. Compare IT to unemployment for other professions: 1.8% for accountants, 0.7% for lawyers, and 1.1% for registered nurses. See any guest worker programs for accountants or lawyers?

4. How many years does someone call themselves an unemployed programmer before they learn to say "would you like fries with that"? After that, labor statistics call them employed, so they don't count as an unemployed programmer anymore.

If Hoffman really wanted to get his career on track at Oracle, he would figure out how to use the immigration bill to stack the deck for the next America's Cup challenge.

--Dan

Michele: I live in Silicon Valey - home to thousands of unemployed 50-year-old software engineers. You know, the smart, seasoned guys who BUILT this industry.

I wish the average person in this country could get a feel for just how full of shit the "desperate IT labor shortage" line is. You don't suppose the MSM misleads them, do you?

Let's see, the NYT article cited:

Robert P. Hoffman, a vice president of Oracle

David Isaacs, director of federal affairs at the Hewlett-Packard Company

Denyse Sabagh, a former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association

Susan R. Meisinger, president of the Society for Human Resource Management

Randel K. Johnson, a vice president of the Chamber of Commerce

But not a single programmer, or someone from a group that represents their interests, let alone any (gasp) actual historical data.

This doesn't even rise to the level of a "he said, she said" article, it's strictly "he said".

"You can't hire a chemical engineer to do the work of a software engineer." - Robert Hoffman.

Absolutly false! We do it all the time.

OTOH, had he said "you can't hire a software engineer to do the work of a chemical engineer..."

CK Dexter Haven: Should I explain to TLB the difference between raiding a factory and hauling out the workers and jailing a CEO for illegal employment practices.

You can start by explaining exactly how that would be possible (in the real world). Are you sure there isn't something you haven't been able to figure out?

cmdicely: OTOH, had he said "you can't hire a software engineer to do the work of a chemical engineer..."

True, but I question how many chemical engineers Oracle employs.

PaulS and cmDicely are right on the mark. I am a chemical engineer with formal training in computer science (completed master's coursework). I have worked in both industries and currently do only IT stuff. A ChemE can do software very easily; all it takes is a certain amount of experience self-discipline. The knowledge domains are quite different; you cannot make a software engineer into a ChemE. It is the same as a surgeon writing software and vice-versa.

Andy >"...the unemployment rate in IT/software engineering is under 3%."

IT & software engineering are different areas of the digital economy. Software engineering often occurs in IT shops (when the user community is lucky anyway - joke !) but that is not their main activity.

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

You can start by explaining exactly how that would be possible (in the real world). Are you sure there isn't something you haven't been able to figure out?

You mean in the real world with Republicans in power of the exec branch? I'll give you that in that scenario it is impossible to arrest CEOs for breaking the law.

This is genuinely sickening. He is complaining about the inability to hire software engineers.

The US has always led the world in this.

They are just looking for cheap labor.

osama_been_forgotten: The US must invade and conquer Mexico, and force her to submit to our labor laws and anti-corruption practices.

Our what?

Disputo: that wasn't what I meant. Speaking about software, one of the problems you run into is people forgetting to think how things are going to work in the future, and how they're going to work in different situations. ContingencyPlanning, etc. For instance, the original version of the JavaLanguage assumed that the user only had one monitor.

And, the same is true of many "liberals". They just cannot think things through and figure out all the things that might happen now and in the future.

So, put on your thinking caps and try to figure out all the downsides of CK Dexter Haven's proposal.

BTW the H1B visa-holder can work here for only 6 years. After that, s/must leave the USA for a year and can then apply for a new HiB visa. The 6-year limit applies whether or not the vis-holder has changed jobs and gotten a new H1B visa.

In my experience many/most H1B visa holders obtain green card sponsorship well before the six year limit is reached. Once they have obtained a sponsor, they're soon thereafter given some sort of preliminary residence permit -- prior to the issuance of a green card -- that pretty much gives them all the rights of a green card holder (the designation of this particular visa escapes me at the moment). Either that or they marry an American. The official line that an H1-B visa is a "non-immigrant" visa is laughable. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, mind you -- it would be foolish for the country to allow smart foreigners to soak up American know-how for six years and then send them packing, as much as many a programmer might wish this were the case.

I wish the average person in this country could get a feel for just how full of shit the "desperate IT labor shortage" line is. You don't suppose the MSM misleads them, do you?

No, I doubt they do. The apparatus for counting job creation and demand is fairly sophisticated, and rests upon a firm, well-researched background in labor statistics. My guess is the bean counters are reasonably accurate in their sums and in their projections, and have correctly calculated that the demand for professionals trained in various parts of the information technology sector -- one of the fastest growing segments of the economy over the long term -- significantly exceeds the number of people in the pipeline trained in IT -- especially in light of the fact that we're on the precipice of a veritable explosion in the number of baby boomers who are beginning to retire in the field. It would appear their methodology works with respect to, say, the shortage of nurses or physical therapists or customer service managers. I can't see why they'd suddenly get it all wrong when it comes to IT.

daCascadian writes:

IT & software engineering are different areas of the digital economy.

I know.. I'm a software engineer.

Avg age of software developers

"The current mean age is 41 years old�two years grayer than the average in 2000."

If the age of an average SW dev is older, doesn't it stand to reason that there are more older SW engineers? Where does the 50-yo unemployed SW engineers info come from?

Unemployment rate

"Math and computer occupations also showed a decline in unemployment in 2006 (2.5 percent), as did computer and information system managers (2.3 percent). Only computer programmers (2.6 percent) and electrical engineers (1.9 percent) increased their unemployment rates in 2006."

I know that the unemployment rate for lawyers and accountants are lower, but the lawyer field is static - it's not growing year over year. And actually, some accounting is getting offshored.

TLB,
Typical muddled thought. In your fervor to insult 'liberals', you make the most muddled post I have seen in a while, which of course guarantees that your next post starts with "duh, that isn't what I meant".

Go lie by your dish, the grownups are talking now.

alex: I wish the average person in this country could get a feel for just how full of shit the "desperate IT labor shortage" line is. You don't suppose the MSM misleads them, do you?

Jasper: No, I doubt they do.

Why?

The apparatus for counting job creation and demand is fairly sophisticated, and rests upon a firm, well-researched background in labor statistics.

Of course my entire point was that the MSM doesn't cite labor statistics, and instead quotes software industry executives. In English, that's called "misleading", although I'd accept "distorted", "one-sided", "shilling", "inaccurate" or even just "nonobjective" as alternative descriptions.

Tell me, are you a software industry executive, an immigration lawyer, or just a useful idiot?

Andy: I know that the unemployment rate for lawyers and accountants are lower, but the lawyer field is static - it's not growing year over year.

And the first sentence of your second link: Though still down a total of 809,100 jobs, or 12 percent of its work force since 2000, the high-tech industry has made great strides in the past two years towards recovering this loss

The recovery in this field is so strong that now employment is only down by 12%. It doesn't sound to me like there's any desperate shortage.

Meanwhile, was the issuance of new H-1B visas suspended for the five years that this field was shedding jobs? Of course not. Not that, with employment still 12% below its peak, there's any justification for having it now either. Not that, even in 1998 according to a GAO report, there was any justification for it even then.

BTW the GAO report took full advantage of the fact that, as Jasper put it, "the apparatus for counting job creation and demand is fairly sophisticated, and rests upon a firm, well-researched background in labor statistics".

On the issue of companies hiring illegal aliens:

In order to penalize employers for doing so, we will need the apparatus for establishing that one is legally in this country and eligible to actually work. This part is in the domain of government, not business. This requires, for employment purposes, some sort of government issued ID that proves the legality to work for everyone, citizens included.

Today, how does one know he is hiring someone who is not legally working in this country? If you know he is not a citizen, then one is required to ask for federally issued immigration papers and IDs, but if the person presents standard identification that he was born here (fake birth certificate, valid Social Security card, and valid driver's license), then what is an employer to do? Question the identification because the employee doesn't appear to be a citizen?

I don't deny that there are a lot of employers who employ illegals without checking for legality at all, and don't care, but I do question how many large companies do this. I would guess that almost all of the violators are very small businesses and proprietorships that can get away with paying the illegals under the table, and that most of the larger businesses that do so (and still not very large) are contract-services companies that provide low-skill services like cleaning.

Which brings me to the discussion about TLB's comment. To show that an employer is employing illegals does require raids on the businesses themselves, which will require investigation of the work-status of each of the employees found there, and which, by the law of today, would require the initiation of deportation for any found to be here illegally. Many of you seem to believe there are presently no penalties for employing illegals, but there are already civil and criminal penalties on the books. Certainly, we can debate about how vigorously such prosecutions are actually pursued, and whether or not the penalties are harsh enough to encourage legal behavior, but not that employing illegals is a risk-free endeavor. So, are all you willing to support such raids on businesses to find the immigration status of the workers, and to deport the illegals that are found? This is the point TLB was trying to get at, and which most you dodged.

LOL. Yancy to the rescue.

You guys are fun. Yes, they would need to review the folks working and they need to investigate the efforts made to verify the legality of their hires but this isn't rocket science and is in fact done every day.

If only there were a way to provide legal immigrants documentation of their status, and employers to verify that status, then we could, through some auditing process or other, identify employers who are illegally employing illegals.

If only there were a way...

So, are all you willing to support such raids on businesses to find the immigration status of the workers, and to deport the illegals that are found?

Yes.

I want no stone left unturned in pursuit of a less brown America, and a sixty-five cent per hour raise for landscaping workers.

Employers are giving priority to foreign employees not only for their merit and talent also they can hire them for a much lesser salary than what they have to pay for Americans.So if "point system" implemented for visa approval, then it is very hard to find people for lesser package..
European Breakdown Cover

The usual argument I hear for currently undocumented workers is that they do the work no one else wants to.

I would say that undocumented workers do the work at lower undocumented wages (no tax included) that companies want to pay.

Companies will take advantage of it until you make it worth less to hire american citizens. Place very, very, very stiff penalites on companies and the practice will stop because the risk would be to great. There is no risk at hiring illegals, that's why they do it.