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Tilting at Windmills

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May 25, 2007
By: Kevin Drum

AN EPIPHANY....Kathryn Jean Lopez today, commenting on the bullying and dishonest editorial style of the Wall Street Journal toward anyone they disagree with:

It's nice to be talked about, but I do wish the Wall Street Journal wasn't so hostile and insulting when talking about us and immigration.

Lopez in 2005, commenting on how grating George Bush's grade school speaking style is when you disagree with him on something (Harriet Miers, in this case):

I hate this groaning-when-the-president speaks reflex I've had all week on this issue.

Isn't it remarkable how quickly the obvious becomes really, really obvious when you're on the receiving end of the conservative noise machine?

Kevin Drum 1:08 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (49)

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Comments

I hate this "groaning when the National Review says something about 'liberals' that isn't remotely true" reflex I've had for the last six years.

Posted by: mmy on May 25, 2007 at 1:09 PM | PERMALINK

Fair point, Kevin. Of course, liberals use bullying speech too, as comments about me on this site illustrate.

Posted by: ex-liberal on May 25, 2007 at 1:16 PM | PERMALINK

I hate this I-want-to-tear-their-guts-out-and-strangle-them-with-the-entrails feeling I get when I hear conservatives whine about being "bullied" by "hate speech."

Posted by: bleh on May 25, 2007 at 1:23 PM | PERMALINK

"ex-liberal" whined: Of course, liberals use bullying speech too, as comments about me on this site illustrate.

Comments about you point out your dishonest, bad-faith repetition of GOP/neocon talking points -- even ones about which you've already been politely corrected. If you have a problem with that, you could have comemnted here in something other than your constant bad faith, but nooooooooooo.

But still, is that really "bullying" speech? I don't see any bullying; all I see if your serial dishoensties debunked, your morally indefensible stands excoriated, your bad faith shamed, and your constant discourtesies -- even your handle is a calculated insult -- returned in kind. All of which your own comments richly deserve, "ex-liberal."

No one forces you to post your dishonest necon comments here. (Pays you to, maybe.) You've long since demonstrated your bad faith and moral bankruptcy, but again, that choice was all yours. Your implication that your comments should be received any otrher way is, as per usual, an assertion with nothing to support it.

Nice to see that for all your pretense of being an honest commentator and ignoring the innumerable times your contentions are refuted, your critics are geting through after all though.

Posted by: Gregory on May 25, 2007 at 1:24 PM | PERMALINK

Perhaps Lopez should look at the stances taken by NRO on many issues.

One good example is this inverview by Lopez where Lopez plays the "straight man," but then echoes and gives a platform to the same bullying themes.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NzRiYWRlMWM4YWQyYTY4OGIyNTY4MTc0YjFlZWI3NTk=

Kathryn Jean Lopez: Your upcoming book begins with a quote from Cicero about how a nation “cannot survive treason from within.” Surely you’re not calling Democrats traitors. Or are you?

“Buzz” Patterson: I am. They certainly are if their behavior during our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is held up to the light of the U.S. Constitution. ....

Lopez: Is it fair even to say “The Left has declared war on the U.S. military and the global War on Terror”? And your title! The Left doesn’t want to destroy the military, for Pete’s sake.

Lt. Col. Patterson: Not only do I absolutely believe that Democrats have declared war on an American victory in the War on Terror but that’s generally been the case since 1968.....

Lopez: But don’t we all support the troops?

Lt. Col. Patterson: The Left’s “support” of our military consists of constant undermining or ignoring of the successes in Iraq and Afghanistan (and there have been many), legislation calling for outright defeat, grossly exaggerating or embellishing the misdeeds of a few miscreants at Abu Ghraib, championing baseless claims of torture at Guantanamo Bay, and staging antiwar rallies across the country. Our troops certainly don’t need or deserve those sorts of support.

How can somebody claim to support the troops while they demean them publicly (as John Kerry has done routinely since 1971) and not support the combat that we, as a nation, ordered them into? The reality is the Left doesn’t understand the military, in many cases finds military service distasteful and beneath them, and apparently doesn’t nearly understand the threat we face.

Lopez: Democratic defeatism wasn’t born yesterday....

Posted by: Catch22 on May 25, 2007 at 1:25 PM | PERMALINK

I hate this I-want-to-tear-their-guts-out-and-strangle-them-with-the-entrails feeling I get when I hear conservatives whine about being "bullied" by "hate speech."

It's more working the refs -- notice, for example, "ex-liberal"'s false conflation of the comments here with the conservative noise machine.

It does reveal how pathetically wimpy conservatives are, for all their chest-thumping rhetoric, though.

Posted by: Gregory on May 25, 2007 at 1:26 PM | PERMALINK

May 1, 2007 NRO's Military Blog The Tank
http://tank.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTViZDUyNGIyN2E3MWUwMGFkOThjMzQ5NDMyZmYwN2M=

Kathryn's Conversation with Buzz Patterson [W. Thomas Smith Jr.]

I've just now read Kathryn Jean Lopez's fantastic Q&A with retired Air Force Lt. Col. Robert "Buzz" Patterson....

Lopez should perhaps look in the mirror before casting stones at the WSJ even if she is right about them.

Posted by: Catch22 on May 25, 2007 at 1:28 PM | PERMALINK

Hey wait, wasn't immigration supposed to be one of those golden wedge issues the GOP could use to divide Democrats?

Sweet irony . . . I'd use that German word for taking satifaction in your opponent's misfortune, except my spelling is worse than Egbert's.

Posted by: Dwight on May 25, 2007 at 1:31 PM | PERMALINK

Of course, liberals use bullying speech too, as comments about me on this site illustrate.

Well call a waahhh-mbulance for the whiny-assed titty baby.

Here's a nickels worth of free advice: If you don't want to be called a dishonest hack and a neocon toad - stop being a dishonest hack and a neocon toad!!!

Or don't. It's kinda fun to watch you try to roll that boulder up the hill only to have your own bullshit bowl you over. Tool.

Posted by: Isle of Lucy on May 25, 2007 at 1:38 PM | PERMALINK

Equally funny, from today's Corner (Andy McCarthy, in this case):
I really like the WSJ's editorial page — I don't know what we'd do without them. But they have a nasty, condescending streak when they get on their high horse, as they do with their signature position on immigration.
They're always nasty and condescending, Andy. You just don't notice it because most of the time they're nasty and condescending to the people you think it's OK to be nasty and condescending to, like the poor.

Posted by: SDM on May 25, 2007 at 1:45 PM | PERMALINK

In which a leftist blogger comments on someone else's "bullying and dishonest editorial style".

The lack of self-awareness is breathtaking.

Posted by: am on May 25, 2007 at 1:46 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin? Leftist? Bullying? Dishonest?

You level that charge against Kevin???

How deeply did you drink from the raspberry red?

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on May 25, 2007 at 1:54 PM | PERMALINK

In which a leftist blogger comments on someone else's "bullying and dishonest editorial style"

Ow. I just spewed seltzer all over some some proofs picturing the kind of person who thinks Kevin is a "leftist."

Posted by: shortstop on May 25, 2007 at 1:54 PM | PERMALINK

There is no question that conservatives generally use much more civility in conversation. The biggest reason for this is that conservatives are often older, and also generally more mature, regardless of age.

The only proof you need to support this assertion is to read virtually any thread on this website.

Or, go out on the street and look at bumper stickers. The conservative has a bumper sticker that reads "Bush & Cheney in '04". The liberal has a sticker (actually about a hundred stickers)that read "Bush is Satan", or "somewhere in texas a villiage is missing an idiot", or something similar.

Sidebar: this phenomenon is also responsible for leftists having a more negative mentality, and more difficulty leading productive lives.

Posted by: sportsfan79 on May 25, 2007 at 1:57 PM | PERMALINK

sportsfan79: Sidebar: this phenomenon is also responsible for leftists having a more negative mentality, and more difficulty leading productive lives.

Wow, thanks sportsfan for posting your IQ along with your handle. It warns us as to what to watch out for in your brilliant posts.

Posted by: bigcat on May 25, 2007 at 2:04 PM | PERMALINK

this phenomenon is also responsible for leftists having a more negative mentality, and more difficulty leading productive lives.

Cite your peer-reviewed source for this charge?

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on May 25, 2007 at 2:04 PM | PERMALINK

"In which a leftist blogger comments on someone else's "bullying and dishonest editorial style"."

In which a rightist blog commenter whines about being picked on and false conflates blog comments with a widely-read and nationally known newspaper editorial board.

"The lack of self-awareness is breathtaking.

Couldn't have said it better myself, dear heart.

What's interesting, by the way, is that you specifically called out Kevin, not the commenters here. You will, of course, not be able to find a single example of Kevin's "bullying and dishonest editorial style" because Kevin lacks those attributes. All in all, a complete failure on your part. Care to try again?

Posted by: PaulB on May 25, 2007 at 2:05 PM | PERMALINK

What seems clear is that there are plenty of Americans, of both partisan and several ideological persuasions, who are deeply committed to the idea that they are the victims of bullies and mean people.

I can't make up my mind as to whether this indicates that our political culture, and perhaps our culture beyond politics, has become deeply effeminized, or instead that a great many Americans really, deeply and sincerely see themselves as they did when they were children: helpless, vulnerable and in need of protection against bad people of every description. Maybe it simply means that a lot of politically active Americans badly need some toughen-up pills.

In any event, lots of people in the history of this country have effected changes of all kinds, big ones. One thing most of them have in common is that they didn't spend a lot of time complaining in public about how mean their critics were to them or what a big problem bullies were in American political life. Of course, most of these people are also dead by this time, which may be our problem.

Posted by: Zathras on May 25, 2007 at 2:06 PM | PERMALINK

"There is no question that conservatives generally use much more civility in conversation."

ROFL... No, dear, they don't, as any perusal of a conservative site would reveal. But then, you already knew this and were just trolling.

"The biggest reason for this is that conservatives are often older, and also generally more mature, regardless of age.:"

Dear heart, age has little to do with maturity and even less to do with vitriol and civility.

"The only proof you need to support this assertion is to read virtually any thread on this website."

ROFL... Thanks for admitting that you're simply making shit up, as usual.

"Or, go out on the street and look at bumper stickers. The conservative has a bumper sticker that reads "Bush & Cheney in '04". The liberal has a sticker (actually about a hundred stickers)that read "Bush is Satan", or "somewhere in texas a villiage is missing an idiot", or something similar."

Yes, dear, and if you had performed that same exercise during the Clinton years, what would you have seen? No need to respond, dear, since we both know the answer.

"Sidebar: this phenomenon is also responsible for leftists having a more negative mentality, and more difficulty leading productive lives."

ROFL... Whatever you say, dear.

Posted by: PaulB on May 25, 2007 at 2:11 PM | PERMALINK

Okay, so maybe conservatives can get pretty uncivil on their blogs. But I think we can all agree that right-wing radio is the acme of the apex of courtesy.

Posted by: shortstop on May 25, 2007 at 2:16 PM | PERMALINK

Gee, that's too bad, ex-lib.
Now hand over that fuckin' lunch money!

Posted by: Kenji on May 25, 2007 at 2:21 PM | PERMALINK

Does SportsFan really believe that conservatives are civil? He thinks that Rush Limbaugh is civil? He thinks that Ann Coulter is civil? He thinks that Bill O'Reilly is civil? He thinks that Ramesh Ponnuru was being civil when he called Democrats "The Party of Death"? He thinks that David Horowitz is civil? He thinks Sean Hannity is civil?

What in the world is he thinking? I can never tell if conservatives are deluded, or do they realize that what they say has no relationship to the truth, and just don't care?

Posted by: Daryl McCullough on May 25, 2007 at 2:24 PM | PERMALINK

Anne "faggot" Coulter, Michelle "Queen of the Concentration Camps" Malkin, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Dick "Go F yourself" Cheney, Ramesh "Party of Death" Ponnuru, Michael "Get Aids and die!" Savage, on and on and on... All the height of "conservative" civility and maturity, I'm sure.

Posted by: Orson on May 25, 2007 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK

Cite your peer-reviewed source for this charge?

It doesn't need to be true as long as I have faith that it is.

Posted by: jocksniffer79 on May 25, 2007 at 2:30 PM | PERMALINK

orson: Anne "faggot" Coulter, Michelle "Queen of the Concentration Camps" Malkin, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Dick "Go F yourself" Cheney, Ramesh "Party of Death" Ponnuru, Michael "Get Aids and die!" Savage, on and on and on... All the height of "conservative" civility and maturity, I'm sure.

the gop: we can dish it out...but we can't take it

Posted by: mr. irony on May 25, 2007 at 2:41 PM | PERMALINK

I have to say I'm in agreement with this sportsfan fellow. It used to be that you could count on the average Democrat to accept his lot in life without too much backtalk. He knew who his betters were and, save for a little disorganized union organizing and so forth, he showed respect for those of us running things.

Then in the 60s, it all went downhill. I knew the days of Americans recognizing their place were over the day I left the draft office after securing my deferral, and passed a row of unkempt hooligans shouting, of all things, "One, two, three, four, we don't want your fucking war!" I ask you! It only got worse, as President Hey Hey LBJ and other recipients of crass leftist incivility can attest. No Republican was feeling any liberal affection during the Summer of Love, I can tell you.

Forty years later, dropping F bombs while driving hybrid cars sporting bumper stickers disrepecting our courageous commander in chief is a way of life for liberals. No respect for authority whatsoever. It is a sad day for America, sirs. A sad day.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 25, 2007 at 2:43 PM | PERMALINK

Let me get this straight Norm...You were offended by people who had the temerity to protest a war that you refused to fight?

That is toooo precious.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on May 25, 2007 at 3:14 PM | PERMALINK

Someone is practising Serial Stupidity

Ex-liberal "liberals use bullying speech too"
Sportsfan79 "Or, go out on the street and look at bumper stickers"
Norman Rogers "Then in the 60s, it all went downhill"

Posted by: Mr DeBakey on May 25, 2007 at 3:14 PM | PERMALINK

Let me get this straight Norm...You were offended by people who had the temerity to protest a war that you refused to fight?

Certainly. You didn't hear me effing this and effing that in the draft office. I simply explained why my presence was invaluable and irreplaceable in the private sector, conducting business rather than attracting bullets. No incivility was necessary to make my case.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 25, 2007 at 3:27 PM | PERMALINK

Blue Girl, Red State, and Mr DeBakey,

I think that you might be mistaking a Norman Rogers parody for an actual Norman Rogers post.

Posted by: Daryl McCullough on May 25, 2007 at 3:35 PM | PERMALINK

I see your point Norm. Why stoop to incivility when hypocrisy and banality will suffice very well?

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on May 25, 2007 at 3:39 PM | PERMALINK

Normie, that work in the private sector - Running "Houses of Pleasure" at China Beach?

Posted by: thethirdPaul on May 25, 2007 at 3:40 PM | PERMALINK

"I think that you might be mistaking a Norman Rogers parody for an actual Norman Rogers post."

Considering that the Norman Rogers persona is a parody, it's impossible to tell.

Posted by: PaulB on May 25, 2007 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINK

That was AWESOME Norm!

No Republican was feeling any liberal affection during the Summer of Love, I can tell you.

Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!

Posted by: kenga on May 25, 2007 at 4:28 PM | PERMALINK

There once was a real guy named Norm
Whose posts always set off a storm
Norm went bye-bye, and so
Nowadays we don't know
Just who's posting in top Norman form

Posted by: shortstop on May 25, 2007 at 4:29 PM | PERMALINK

(handing kenga entire movie-sized box of Jujubes)

Posted by: shortstop on May 25, 2007 at 4:32 PM | PERMALINK

I think that Norman Rogers of the past and Norman Rogers of today are the same person. It's just he got tired of his angry "you are stupid, Kevin" schtick and moved on to something else. We've watched a performance artist improve his craft before our very eyes.

Posted by: Constantine on May 25, 2007 at 4:53 PM | PERMALINK

Now:

No incivility was necessary to make my case. Norman Rogers at 3:27 PM

typical
The liberalism of 2007 is a whiny, oh-my-God-the-planet-is-dying, woe-is-me Defeat-o-Crat pee pee in my panty-pants party. … Norman Rogers at 11:00 PM

Sic semper demens

Posted by: Mike on May 25, 2007 at 5:02 PM | PERMALINK

I think that Norman Rogers of the past and Norman Rogers of today are the same person. It's just he got tired of his angry "you are stupid, Kevin" schtick and moved on to something else. We've watched a performance artist improve his craft before our very eyes.

Posted by: Constantine on May 25, 2007 at 5:15 PM | PERMALINK

It must be tiresome to be stuck with such a loathsome personality, no matter how well stage-managed it is. He's like the Sam Kinneson of trolls. Which makes mhr like, what, the Joey Bishop?

Posted by: Kenji on May 25, 2007 at 8:35 PM | PERMALINK

My favorite KJL gaffe of the day is this, from today's Corner, complaining about the Planned Parenthood website youth Q&A:


Planning Early [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
I made another stop at Planned Parenthood's webmag for teens. Here's another Q&A, in which a girl writes in that she is pregnant and doesn't want to have an abortion ... but my friends keep telling me to give it up, saying I'm too young, I ought to live it up. What I need right now is some good advice.

To which I respond:
Papa don't preach, i'm in trouble deep, Poppa don't preach, I been losing sleep. But I've made up my mind, I'm keeping my baby...

what a dunce that woman is.

Posted by: richard on May 25, 2007 at 8:50 PM | PERMALINK

K-Lo is a wonder. I'm sure she is utterly clueless about the supreme irony of her comment about the WSJ opinion page. She is such a lightweight it boggles the mind how she is taken seriously by anyone.

Posted by: Jim on May 25, 2007 at 10:16 PM | PERMALINK

I can't stand to listen to the retard fumble through the English language for even two minutes anymore. It's too painful....

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on May 25, 2007 at 11:05 PM | PERMALINK

How about the incessant waving during the walks across the lawn, the goofy facial expressions and inappropriate smiling as our country slides deeper into quagmires that he created....

Posted by: consider wisely on May 26, 2007 at 1:54 AM | PERMALINK

Here's another article agreeing with Lopez:

Conservatives demonized by unlikely source

...I'm also frustrated that the White House fails to treat seriously the concerns conservatives have about its immigration package. The tendency instead is to misrepresent or demean our concerns and, to some extent, demonize us.

We see some of this in the latest column by Michael Gerson, who until recently was a key aide to President Bush. The title of Gerson's piece is "Letting Fear Rule"; the subtitle is "Nativism Is a Recipe for Long-Term GOP Losses." So before Gerson even gets to his analysis, conservatives with whom he disagrees stand accused of nativism and being ruled by fear.

...He begins by comparing the thinking of opponents of immigration reform to that of the Congress that passed the "Chinese Exclusion Act." But opponents of the administration's package aren't taking a position on how many immigrants should be allowed lawfully to enter the country; only on how those who have entered unlawfully should be treated. Thus, Gerson is unfair to mainstream conservative opponents of the reform package when he asserts that "anti-immigrant sentiment" is driving our opposition....

Nor do most mainstream conservative opponents of the administration's plan call for harsh measures against the illegals who are here, even in the absence of effective enforcement. John McCain and Michael Chertoff attack a straw man when they talk about the impossibility of deporting 12 million illegals.
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/017749.php

So, not only do the contents of the immigration bill divide conservatives, but the campaign to pass it divides us even more. I guess this is good news for Dems.

Posted by: ex-liberal on May 26, 2007 at 1:56 AM | PERMALINK

Oh, good Ford..."ex-liberal" cites Powerlame! You really aren't even trying to be credible any more, are you, "ex-liberal"?

Posted by: Gregory on May 26, 2007 at 9:52 AM | PERMALINK

Gregory: My post was about conservative reaction to the immigration bill, so I quoted a conservative source.

Posted by: ex-liberal on May 26, 2007 at 10:28 AM | PERMALINK

You quoted Powerline, "ex-liberal." 'Nuff said.

Posted by: Gregory on May 26, 2007 at 12:22 PM | PERMALINK

From the High Horse:

You guys are all way too busy feeding obvious trolls.

Please forgive me for stating the obvious:
It it WAY too easy for the RECOUNT (Republican Counterinsurgency Taskforce) to derail any substantive discussion of Kevins posts and ensure that the subject is entirely lost ten comments down.

Sportsfan has got one thing painfully spot-on, which needs to be adressed:
Productivity does not match nearly as well with democratic liberalism as with republican conservatism.

Personal freedom has a tendency to to be interpreted as the right to be irresponsible, but from the D-L viewpoint this often means very little actually getting done, while the R-C side tend to get way too much done (often in the name of naked self-interest).
Democracy only works, when the true workhorses from both sides find each other and put their respective slackers out of influence.

What have you actually done to change the US political trends this week?

Posted by: OmniDane on May 27, 2007 at 12:10 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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