Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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June 6, 2007
By: Kevin Drum

QUOTE OF THE DAY....John MacArthur, quoted approvingly by James Dobson: "You know a society has been abandoned by God when it celebrates...lesbian...sex."

Via Perlstein.

UPDATE: Apparently the speaker in this clip is actually John MacArthur, not Dobson himself. However, the tape of McArthur's sermon was enthusiastically introduced by Dobson, who devoted two of his radio shows to it. I've corrected the text to make this clear.

Kevin Drum 6:41 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (89)

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Comments

So long, God.

Posted by: Rob S. on June 6, 2007 at 6:47 PM | PERMALINK

Is it incorrect to characterize Dobson's obsessions and reference to this as pornographic? Where is Michael Powell of the FCC?

Posted by: gregor on June 6, 2007 at 6:54 PM | PERMALINK

Celebrate good times, come on!

Posted by: The Hot Lesbian Cheerleaders ride (yes, ride) again on June 6, 2007 at 6:55 PM | PERMALINK

It's just too easy.

Posted by: Doug-E-fresh on June 6, 2007 at 6:59 PM | PERMALINK

You know a vice-president has been abandoned by God when he celebrates lesbian sex, too.

Posted by: steph on June 6, 2007 at 6:59 PM | PERMALINK

In Standard Reactionary English "celebrates" means "fails to burn practitioners at the stake".

Posted by: Wilbur on June 6, 2007 at 7:03 PM | PERMALINK

Any male who doesn't enjoy watching two girls enjoying some hot lesbian sex is gay.

Posted by: PHB on June 6, 2007 at 7:04 PM | PERMALINK

I'm confused.

It sounds like Dobson's is blaming God here: first, God abandoned our society; as a result our society began celebrating lesbian sex. We inform the former from the latter.

So maybe if God hadn't have turned his back on us, we wouldn't be having all these celebrations.

What a jerk God is, man.

Posted by: lampwick on June 6, 2007 at 7:05 PM | PERMALINK

PHB, QFT, FTW, Threads Over, go home.

Posted by: jerry on June 6, 2007 at 7:07 PM | PERMALINK

Rob: So long, God.

Dude, that was funny!

Posted by: tRex on June 6, 2007 at 7:09 PM | PERMALINK

Heh, James Dobson said, "Jesus cums."

Posted by: jerry on June 6, 2007 at 7:10 PM | PERMALINK

At the risk of sounding sexist and homophobic, I must endorse PHB's comment as the appropriate rejoinder to Dobson's comment.

Posted by: Disputo on June 6, 2007 at 7:10 PM | PERMALINK

At my age, I celebrate any kind of sex. Lesbian sex is just a memory, although one of my nicer ones.

And remind me to tell you sometime about that night in the summer of 1970 in an olive grove on the slopes of the Acropolis.

Or that last evening of Ramadan in 1984, up the east side of the Great Pyramid, with the full moon rising over Cairo.

An aged man may be a paltry thing, a tattered coat upon a stick, but by god I've built me up some memories.

Posted by: anandine on June 6, 2007 at 7:10 PM | PERMALINK

Hot, godless lesbian sex is what America is all about. That's why D'souza and Bin Laden hate America.

Posted by: Orson on June 6, 2007 at 7:11 PM | PERMALINK

not celebrating, exactly. maybe drooling a bit

Posted by: thersites on June 6, 2007 at 7:12 PM | PERMALINK

But Dobson also says AIDS is God's vengeance on gay men. And lesbian women are the least likely to acquire HIV/AIDS sexually. Which suggests lesbians are God's favored people. Why aren't we supposed to celebrate that, again?

Posted by: Shelby on June 6, 2007 at 7:14 PM | PERMALINK

anandine, surely you have more tales to tell>

Posted by: Tilli (Mojave Desert) on June 6, 2007 at 7:18 PM | PERMALINK

It's about time I was worshiped properly!

Posted by: Muffy the Hot Lesbian Cheerleader with 44-DD's on June 6, 2007 at 7:21 PM | PERMALINK
It sounds like Dobson's is blaming God here: first, God abandoned our society; as a result our society began celebrating lesbian sex.

I'm pretty sure there is a rather literal NT Biblical basis for this in, IIRC, the Pauline corpus, where it is said that God gives over groups that have turned their back on him over to things (and reveling in homosexuality, though not lesbianism particularly, is one of the cited examples) that are seen as evil by the societies around them as signs to others of their evil.

So the chain he would seem to be suggesting is this:

Society turns away from God --> God responds in kind --> Society revels in lesbian sex --> People everywhere know God has given up on the society.

Posted by: cmdicely on June 6, 2007 at 7:22 PM | PERMALINK

Just on the offchance...

If there are any hot lesbians out there who would like to video-cam themselves in action and upload the results to YouTube the rest of us here could celebrate them right here, right now.

Not sure why Dobson thinks that God doesn't like a spot of hot lesbian action. After all he is all seeing - right? That means that he must see more lesbian sex than anyone.

Posted by: PHB on June 6, 2007 at 7:23 PM | PERMALINK

Ad of the day:

Kucinich's on the right hand side (about four down).

An elf of stalwart principles for sure.

Here's hoping he does so well in his Fox debate that they offer him a job as Hannity's straight man...


Posted by: ROTFLMLiberalAO on June 6, 2007 at 7:25 PM | PERMALINK

We don't celebrate lesbian sex in general - only hot lesbian sex! ;-D

Posted by: Me on June 6, 2007 at 7:26 PM | PERMALINK

Well, if we have to have another commemorative month it shouldn’t be October. It's already National Toilet Tank Repair Month, National Roller Skating Month AND National Popcorn Poppin' Month.

I nominate August. It’s relatively free. It can be National Catfish Month, Peach Month, Harvest Month, National Water Quality Month and National Lesbian Sex Month.

Posted by: bellumregio on June 6, 2007 at 7:28 PM | PERMALINK

Muffy the Hot Lesbian Cheerleader with 44-DD's

Beep! Clearly a man wrote this. No woman would brag about having a 44-inch back.

I like to see lesbianism getting a little attention from our preacherman friends. To hear these fellows talk with their Sodom and Gomorrah this and AIDS that, you'd think all they ever think about is guys getting it on together.

Posted by: shortstop on June 6, 2007 at 7:43 PM | PERMALINK

A minor correction... trying to get it to Kevin...

The quote isn't actually Dobson's own. His is the voice in the beginning saying he agrees with the preacher. It's from Dobson's radio show - he plays a tape of a preacher's sermon - Rev John McArthur - that was given on the national day of prayer out in Colorado somewhere.

So yeah, they're actually McArthur's word's, endorsed and expressly agreed with by Dobson.

Posted by: Mike Stark on June 6, 2007 at 7:54 PM | PERMALINK

Was it not Christ's habit to consort with sinners and with the poor and even with prostitutes, like Mary Matalin?

Er, Magdalene. Whatever.

Posted by: lampwick on June 6, 2007 at 8:05 PM | PERMALINK

We don't truly celebrate lesbian sex until we get a three-day weekend out of it.

Posted by: Roger Ailes on June 6, 2007 at 8:29 PM | PERMALINK

GAY OK

I was CB today & a guy made a nasty homophobic commment & commenters felt no need to respond. Soon Kevin will be free to be who he is. Mind Fuck.

Posted by: Michael7843853 G-O in 08! on June 6, 2007 at 8:32 PM | PERMALINK

Lesbian sex is proof that there is a God. Sorry guys, no offense intended.

Posted by: Matilde on June 6, 2007 at 8:39 PM | PERMALINK

Dobson prefers the pornography of war to lesbian sex pornography, apparently. Which one is the victimless crime?

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on June 6, 2007 at 8:57 PM | PERMALINK

I'll be in my bunk.

Posted by: Jayne on June 6, 2007 at 9:10 PM | PERMALINK

"You know God has smiled on a society when it has plenty of lesbian sex to celebrate."
-Me


("Mary Cheney": Jayne is a guy.)

Posted by: low-tech cyclist (formerly RT) on June 6, 2007 at 9:43 PM | PERMALINK

I believe in miracles -- you sexy thing!

Posted by: Kenji on June 6, 2007 at 9:45 PM | PERMALINK

MacArthur's bible commentaries were very popular back in the 1980s. High-profile individuals like him sell a lot of books; conversely, not many seem read the scholarly stuff (I'm a United Methodist).

Posted by: Dave on June 6, 2007 at 9:45 PM | PERMALINK

...when it celebrates...lesbian...sex

Celebrate? I had to work on National Lesbian Sex Day!

Posted by: grape_crush on June 6, 2007 at 10:02 PM | PERMALINK

I am as disgusted by Dobson's statement a the rest of you. You are right to mock him.

However, I wish you folks would pay more attention to Islamic leaders who make dreadful statements. For example, here's a video from a Friday sermon delivered at a Khartoum mosque by Sheik Muhammad Tannoun. He refers to (apparently the Jews, but maybe Christians as well) as "The most dspicable creatures on the face of the earth, the offspring of apes and pigs."

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25777_Apes_and_Pigs_Sermon_of_the_Day&only

Posted by: ex-liberal on June 6, 2007 at 10:15 PM | PERMALINK

Bring me some lesbians and I will celebrate sex with them.

Posted by: Matt on June 6, 2007 at 10:17 PM | PERMALINK

You know who also hates lesbian sex? Al Qaeda!

Posted by: ogmb on June 6, 2007 at 10:20 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, it looks as if you will have Lard Stanley as a neighbor this summer, courtesy of some ducks from Anaheim. Are you excited, and will the Cup be making a trip down to Irvine so that Inkblot and Domino can ride in it?

Posted by: Vincent on June 6, 2007 at 10:26 PM | PERMALINK
Was it not Christ's habit to consort with sinners and with the poor and even with prostitutes, like Mary Matalin?

Er, Magdalene.

The idea that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute stems, IIRC, from an early sermon in which four different women of the Gospels—Mary Magdalene, Mary the sister of Martha, the woman sinner who washed Jesus' feet, and the woman caught in adultery in whose case Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "Go forth and sin no more"—as if they were all the same person.

So, really, why not throw another one into the mix?

Posted by: cmdicely on June 6, 2007 at 10:30 PM | PERMALINK
I am as disgusted by Dobson's statement a the rest of you.

I would say that the fact that only you are pointing to someone else and go "look, over there, someone else who isn't the leader of an influential political group in our country does it to" demonstrates fairly conclusively that you are not, in fact, as disgusted by Dobson's statement as are the rest of us.

If you want us to believe any of your lies, they are going to have to be a little less obviously false.

Posted by: cmdicely on June 6, 2007 at 10:33 PM | PERMALINK

I don't know what's more repellent to the sane mind, Dobson/MacArthur's comments, or CNN's hyping of not one, but two missing white girl stories in the same day.

Dobson
CNN
Girls Gone Wild

Supposedly a list like this represents some sort of moral spectrum, but really I can't see daylight between any of them.

Posted by: lampwick on June 6, 2007 at 10:33 PM | PERMALINK

"ex-liberal" wrote: I am as disgusted by Dobson's statement a the rest of you.

Who gives a shit what a dishonest neocon scumbag claims in some transparently obvious attempt to regain his lost credibility? It won't do, "ex-liberal"; you're better off with your usual schtick of pretending not to notice the criticism, debunking and condemnation of your disgusting water carrying for this failed Administration.

You are right to mock him.

And you, let's not forget.

However, I wish you folks would pay more attention to Islamic leaders who make dreadful statements.

Ah, I knew "ex-liberal" can't resist slipping in some bogus neocon bullshit.

Here's the diff, toad:

Focus on the Family founder Dobson: Massively influential with Republicans -- you know, the party whose propaganda you post here -- and through their obligations to him, on American policy -- including government poking its nose into America's bedrooms.

Random Islamic leaders, not so much.

Your desperate attempt at changing the subject reveals your agenda of defending -- or at least distracting from -- this prominent Republican figure. Shame on you, "ex-liberal."

In a move that can only be regarded as a deliberate insult, "ex-liberal" refers to Little Green Snotballs, a site that purveys more hate than any ten Imams.

He refers to (apparently the Jews, but maybe Christians as well) as "The most dspicable creatures on the face of the earth, the offspring of apes and pigs."

I'd have assumed he was referring to you, "ex-liberal."

Posted by: Gregory on June 6, 2007 at 10:37 PM | PERMALINK

They found the body of the missing white girl from Kansas City today.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on June 6, 2007 at 10:38 PM | PERMALINK

f you want us to believe any of your lies, they are going to have to be a little less obviously false.

I've come to the conclusion that "ex-liberal" doesn't want us to believe any of his/her/its lies. "ex-liberal"'s obviously false bad-faith argumentation -- not to mention his/her/its constant citation of bogus right-wingnut sources like the WSJ editorial page and Little Green Fascists -- seems more of a calculated insult.

Posted by: Gregory on June 6, 2007 at 10:41 PM | PERMALINK

Tilli (Mojave Desert): anandine, surely you have more tales to tell

Surely, but you can't use them all at once, or you won't have anything left for a second or third act.

Still, there was this girl in a bar down by the commercial docks in Douala, Cameroon ...

Posted by: anandine on June 6, 2007 at 10:48 PM | PERMALINK

If feminists had their way, lesbian sex would be a sacrament. Naturally liberals want to see lesbian sex proliferate because it would help destroy the family. America can't let that happen.

Posted by: Al on June 6, 2007 at 11:32 PM | PERMALINK

Random Islamic leaders, not so much.

...except when tney inspire the London Underground bombing, the Madrid train bombing, the first WTC attack, 9/11, the attempt to explode the JFK fuel storage tanks, the Bali nightclub bombing, rockets aimed daily at Israeli civilians, the routine torching of cars in France, the Washington D.C. snipers, the 2002 shootings at El Al at Los Angeles Airport, the attacks on two US embassies in Africa, the attack on the USS Cole, the murder of a nun in the wake of the Danish cartoon furor, etc., etc.

Except for these sorts of things, the ravings of random Islamic leaders have little or no effect on us.

Posted by: ex-liberal on June 6, 2007 at 11:38 PM | PERMALINK

If you're interested in studying fundamentalist Christianity, you need to get to know John MacArthur. Christianists consider him to be right up there with James Dobson, although he's not well-known to the general public.

Some of you may remember Kenneth Nally, a young man belonging to MacArthur's congregation who committed suicide while seeking guidance from MacArthur's staff. Nally's parents filed suit against the church claiming that their counselors had a duty to refer him to mental health professionals instead of sticking to Bible-based counseling. The courts ruled that the Nallys lacked sufficient evidence to prove a case however, the linked article states that the California Court of Appeal recently ruled that the case can go to trial.

Posted by: dr sardonicus on June 6, 2007 at 11:42 PM | PERMALINK

LOL! Al and ex can get together to discuss in detail how lesbians are ruining the fabric of our society—if not the fabric of their trousers.

p.s. "If feminists had their way"—wait a minute: why can't they have their way?

Posted by: Kenji on June 6, 2007 at 11:43 PM | PERMALINK

Kenji, repeating what I said above, "I am as disgusted by Dobson's statement a the rest of you. You are right to mock him."

Posted by: ex-liberal on June 6, 2007 at 11:47 PM | PERMALINK

Okay, ex, then why do you immediately turn to the "they are so much worse" argument? better the devil you DON'T know?

Posted by: Kenji on June 6, 2007 at 11:52 PM | PERMALINK

Since there is no God, why take anything seriously that a believer holds true?

Posted by: realthing on June 7, 2007 at 12:04 AM | PERMALINK

Kenji: Okay, ex, then why do you immediately turn to the "they are so much worse" argument? better the devil you DON'T know?

Why? Because liberals are often right about things, but there are blind spots. There's a lot of bigotry in the world. I'd like to see all of it denounced.

It's appropriate to attack Dobson's bigotry. and it's comfortably politically correct to do so. But, I would encourage people to actively criticize all bigotry, even when such criticism is politically incorrect.

Posted by: ex-liberal on June 7, 2007 at 12:07 AM | PERMALINK

Somewhere in a small town in Saskatchawan tonight, there is a house with a refrigerator that has an open jar of horseradish sitting in it.

Much, much closer to home lives my sister, who is a lesbian.

I submit to you all, that that open jar of horseradish is a thousand times worse in its baleful effects on my family's well-being and health than my lesbian sister and her girlfriend.

Posted by: lampwick on June 7, 2007 at 12:08 AM | PERMALINK

Naturally liberals want to see lesbian sex proliferate because it would help destroy the family.

You got that one right, Al. Destruction of the family should be at the top of the librul agenda. Families are boring, they're always getting together to overeat, they limit our sex life, they waste our tax dollars building schools and financing PTA meetings and - worst of all - they're the primary cause of the exponentially increasing overpopulation that's destroying the planet. They're a far more serious problem than global warming or the Iraq war and Hot Lesbian Sex™ is our only hope for salvation. I'm hoping Hillary will come right out and endorse it.

Posted by: fyreflye on June 7, 2007 at 12:09 AM | PERMALINK

It's especially troubling when that horseradish goes to Al's head.

Posted by: Kenji on June 7, 2007 at 12:39 AM | PERMALINK

Sorry, God! It came down to you, I mean You, or hot girl on girl action.

Really, it was no contest. Hold on! No smiting! We're just as You made us, God! You should have foreseen this, Mr. Omniscient!

Posted by: Jon H on June 7, 2007 at 1:01 AM | PERMALINK

If feminists had their way, lesbian sex would be a sacrament. - Al

Oh, dude, I knew eventually there were going to be some nuns in this thread. Let's see, cheerleaders - check, nuns - check...anyone mention Avon ladies yet? Field hockey?

Posted by: mattsteinglass on June 7, 2007 at 3:46 AM | PERMALINK

Except for these sorts of things, the ravings of random Islamic leaders have little or no effect on us.

Dishonest, "ex-liberal". Bad faith. As usual. I didn't say effect, asshole, I said influence on US policy.

But, I would encourage people to actively criticize all bigotry, even when such criticism is politically incorrect.

Dishonest again, "ex-liberal". Another bad faith argument. No one is avoiding criticizing mullahs because of "blind spots" or "political correctness," you toad; no one in this case is criticizing mullahs because they aren't the topic of this post.

And no one needs to criticize mullahs to validate your false equivalence and justify criticism of Dobson -- who, again, unlike mullahs, has actual and direct influence over the American political scene -- your side of the American political scene, in fact, "ex-liberal."

Your false equivalence and transparent attempts to change the subject, especially ignoring the fact that you were already called on it -- along with your usual bad faith and general lack of credibility -- is why your condemnation of Dobson is greeted by such skepticism, and you rightly get no credit for it.

(I wont even bring up the fact that so-called "Christian" purveyors of hate like Dobson and his ilk do inspire terrorism, from abortion clinic bombings to murders like that of Matthew Shepard. There's a difference of degree, but not kind. Okay, yes I will bring it up.)

Posted by: Gregory on June 7, 2007 at 5:19 AM | PERMALINK

Since most lesbians don't make babies, how can god not be happy with that situation since we are living in an overcrowded world? God abandons us when we're doing the right thing?

Posted by: slanted tom on June 7, 2007 at 9:33 AM | PERMALINK

Shortstop, I believe Kitty Natividad would disagree with you.

And Dobson and MacArthur can now go back to reviewing their collection of the No Man's Land series, or Nina Hartley, which ever keeps them up at night.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on June 7, 2007 at 9:38 AM | PERMALINK

Interesting how God/Allah is as obsessed with sex as human males. But then the Bible does say He made us in His image, so I guess it was to be expected that men would think about sex approximately every seven seconds.

It is hysterical to me that fundamentalists of all kinds don't have the self-awareness to recognize the titillation they get from obsessing over other people's sex lives. It is soooo obvious that their God has been created in THEIR image--warts, underbite, cranky temper and a zero sum perspective on sexual pleasure represented with loving care. I mean it WOULD be funny if it didn't get expressed as gay hate crimes, discriminatory laws and executions of women for being raped without witnesses.

Posted by: cowalker on June 7, 2007 at 10:02 AM | PERMALINK

p.s. "If feminists had their way"—wait a minute: why can't they have their way?

It's the fact that they're not having their way with old Al--no matter how much he privately begs--that's got him all indignant.

And Jon H. made me howl with laughter.

Paul, I had to look up "Kitty Natividad." You're a dirty, dirty boy.

Posted by: shortstop on June 7, 2007 at 10:28 AM | PERMALINK

Shortstop,

Merely research from the pre-plastic era.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on June 7, 2007 at 10:36 AM | PERMALINK

cowalker:

Excellent comment. I have also found it interesting that fundamentalists (Christian and Muslim) get more wound up over sex than they do over war or capital punshment. I find the killing of other human beings to be far more obscene and contrary to the will of the Almighty than who puts their lips or other parts of their anatomy on another person's genitalia, whether male or female. This moral constipation about what is the greatest sin, sex or killing, is one of the reasons why I will never be a conservative.

TCD

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on June 7, 2007 at 10:37 AM | PERMALINK

Guess you could say that those who aren't gettin' it just don't get it!

Posted by: Kenji on June 7, 2007 at 11:19 AM | PERMALINK

Grregory: No one is avoiding criticizing mullahs because of "blind spots" or "political correctness,"

I think you are enforcing political correctness when you vilify Little Green Footballs. Your condemnation of that site makes it clear that you consider it an abomination. Yet, what it mostly does is to simply reprint news articles that reflect badly on Muslims, much the way Kevin quoted from a news article that reflects badly on conservative Christians.

So, why do you you blast LGF? I believe it's because it's politically incorrect to speak or write negatively about Islam. By condemning LGF and those of us who read it, you are trying to enforce political correctness. You're reminding everyone that LGF is taboo.

Posted by: ex-liberal on June 7, 2007 at 11:41 AM | PERMALINK

Ah, FAUX yearns for the return of the Fairness Doctrine. Must have broken with Dr Carl McIntyre and Ian Paisley.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on June 7, 2007 at 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

"Little Green Footballs"

Hmm, weren't those part of the slime that spewed from Regan's mouth in "The Exorcist"? Reagan's or Regan's mouth - not much difference.

Posted by: stupid git on June 7, 2007 at 12:05 PM | PERMALINK

Al thinks lesbian sex is a threat to the family because it gives women an alternative to sex with him. So it's a threat to HIS ability to have a family.

And so is abortion, because then he'd have to persuade a woman to bear his unborn fetus for nine months and bear the pain and risk of childbirth, rather than force her to.

Posted by: Doctor Jay on June 7, 2007 at 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

"ex-liberal" wrote: I think you are enforcing political correctness when you vilify Little Green Footballs.

You're a dishonest neocon apologist, "ex-liberal," so who gives a damn what you think?

Your condemnation of that site makes it clear that you consider it an abomination. Yet, what it mostly does is to simply reprint news articles that reflect badly on Muslims, much the way Kevin quoted from a news article that reflects badly on conservative Christians.

Let's see, is there anything "ex-liberal" could be leaving out? Oh, yes -- the utterly vile comment threads. Since "ex-liberal" admits -- big surprise! -- to being a LGF reader ("those of us who read it"), such an omission can only be regarded as deliberately dishonest and in bad faith.

In short, another typical "ex-liberal" post.

So, why do you you blast LGF? I believe it's because it's politically incorrect to speak or write negatively about Islam.

Ah, a classic ad hominem argument, and based on a false premise to boot. Again, "ex-liberal," who gives a damn what a dishonest neocon toad like yourself claims to believe, especially in service of a bad faith argument?

By condemning LGF and those of us who read it, you are trying to enforce political correctness.

Hardly. For starters, you've far from demonstrated that the condemnation is undeserved, except by your usual dishonest bad faith arguments, so the concept that LGF deserves condemnation stands, I'm afraid, as does my assertion that your reference to it can be seen as nothing other than a deliberately insulting provocation, which I note you follow by an insulting defense.

But LGF's vileness aside, I'm not suggesting that anyone not allowed to read it, or post there, so your "enforcing political correctness" argument is, as your arguments usually are, bullshit.

You're reminding everyone that LGF is taboo.

As if they needed reminding. But you're here defending it, and dishonestly to boot. Shame on you, "ex-liberal".

And on top of all of that, shithead, your babbling doesn't even begin to refute my point that "no one is avoiding criticizing mullahs because of "blind spots" or "political correctness."

Tool.

Posted by: Gregory on June 7, 2007 at 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

Most of the lesbians I know, are raising children, working, paying taxes, and basically doing the same sorts of things that conservative folks do. Just without the superior holier than thou attitude that come with being Republican. In fact several of my gay men friends also are raising children! How is that destroying the American family? It isn't! Just another facet of the dynamic American family. And let me tell ya -- Lesbian sex is wonderful! really wonderful ... much better than the other type.

Posted by: Erika on June 7, 2007 at 12:19 PM | PERMALINK

So we're PC when we criticize the Dobsons and MacArthurs for their bigotry toward lesbians without mentioning mullahs in the same breath? How about "There go Dobson and MacArthur sounding just like the worst of the mullahs again - more Christianist jihadism." Better?

Posted by: just sayin' on June 7, 2007 at 12:33 PM | PERMALINK

Gregory, you claim you hate LGF only because of vile comments. I agree that some of the comments there are vile.

But, my link included no comments. It was just a news item. The LGF site is structured like this one in that a person can read LGF without ever opening the Comments thread. That's what I do. So, I think the vile comments are just an excuse to vilify the entire site.

Also, it's hard to believe you are strongly upset by vile comments, because here are some things you wrote in your last post above:

who gives a damn...dishonest neocon toad...dishonest bad faith...deliberately insulting provocation...insulting defense... shithead...babbling...Tool.


Posted by: ex-liberal on June 7, 2007 at 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

...except when...except for these sorts of things, the ravings of random Islamic leaders have little or no effect on us.

More blacks were lynched in total by white Christians as late as the 1960's than the victims of all of the Muslim attacks you mentioned. I can put together a list of victims of Christian or Western ideology -- take your pick -- a hundred times as long as your with thousands of times more victims.

Why don't you worry about the logjam in your own eye rather than whatever bits may be floating in somebody else's. And for the record, you douche, some of those attacks were motivated as much by run of the mill nationalism, ego, and just being plumb crazy as anything else.

A few months ago in my area a white, suburban, Christian guy killed his wife and chopped her body into pieces, who knows why. By you standards we either need to wage war against Christendom or suburbia or both.

Please advise. You idiot.

Posted by: tRex on June 7, 2007 at 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

Al thinks lesbian sex is a threat to the family because it gives women an alternative to sex with him. So it's a threat to HIS ability to have a family.

Of course, guys like Al (and I know he's a fun parody, but there are too many people like him who aren't) never stop to think that women, lesbians or otherwise, are highly unlikely to knock boots with them even if masturbation or mechanized stand-ins become the only other options. No, it's those unnatural lesbos taking away what rightfully belongs to these guys.

Posted by: shortstop on June 7, 2007 at 12:56 PM | PERMALINK

tRex: More blacks were lynched in total by white Christians as late as the 1960's than the victims of all of the Muslim attacks you mentioned. I can put together a list of victims of Christian or Western ideology -- take your pick -- a hundred times as long as your with thousands of times more victims.

Sure, if you go back decades or centuries in history you can find wars in which millions were killed. You can find killings and torture in the name of the Christian religion.

But, if you read a news report today that a beheading or a suicide bombing or torture was just committed in the name of some religion, we all know which religion probably was one involved.

Posted by: ex-liberal on June 7, 2007 at 12:57 PM | PERMALINK

Gregory, I love you, man, so take or leave this--but please don't take it personally.

ex-liberal is the most accomplished troll here now that Al has passed his prime and Charlie's been banned. e-l has a superbly developed talent for asking faux-serious questions pitched in a tone that just might indicate he's actually looking for a dialogue. His self-control is masterful. He never dissolves into overt anger; he does insult, rationalize, spin, misdirect and lie, of course, but always couched in a way that makes it arguable whether he's legitimately seeking to make what his manufactured persona might foolishly believe is a defensible argument.

He's only here to derail threads. That's the only purpose of his posts. The only one.

I know that everyone has different viewpoints on how to deal with trolls. I'm not going to argue that my way is the right way (and I couldn't if I wanted to, because there is no "my way"--I mix it up with bad-faith posters as much as most others do.)

But I still want to point out that ex-liberal is not a confused Republican whose worldview is so warped that he believes the things he's saying. He doesn't. He's simply here to prevent others from talking about the things we're talking about.

Posted by: shortstop on June 7, 2007 at 1:06 PM | PERMALINK

Shortstop,

"knocked boots together"

Hmmm, there was once a ruling about the legtimacy of the marriage between Henry VIII's older brother and Catherine of Aragon, both of whom were mere children at the time - The ruling was that marriage had been consumated because they had "touched toes".

Posted by: thethirdPaul on June 7, 2007 at 1:07 PM | PERMALINK

"ex-liberal" wrote: you claim you hate LGF only because of vile comments.

Bullshit. I never claimed to hate LGF. Are you even capable of making an honest argument?

I agree that some of the comments there are vile.

"Some," eh? I'm sure we all admire your honesty and good faith there, "ex-liberal" -- not.

But, my link included no comments. It was just a news item. The LGF site is structured like this one in that a person can read LGF without ever opening the Comments thread. That's what I do.

So what? LGF is a fever swamp of anti-Muslim hate, which even you don't deny, and hardly friendly to liberals in general and Democrats in particular at that. I notice you aren't even denying my contention -- twice, now -- that linking to LGF was a deliberate insult. Instead you're defending LGF. Terrific!

So, I think the vile comments are just an excuse to vilify the entire site.

1) Who gives a shit what you think, you dishonest neocon toad? Your constant bad faith argumentation renders your every opinion beneath contempt.

2) It isn't just the comments -- many of the posts themselves are dripping with venom.

3) Even if it were just the comments, they would be sufficient to identify the entire site as a fever swamp of anti-Muslim hatred. Plus, the site owner, also, encourages such comments, and discourages those that disagree. In short, your defense of the site is, as I pointed out above, based on a dishonest description of the site, and therefore fails, as does your silly "political correctness" argument.

4) And even if it were true that I was vilifying the site solely for its comments, your objection to that is hypocritical given that you condemn Muslims based on one comment by one imam.

Also, it's hard to believe

Who gives a shit what you claim to believe, you dishoenst neocon toad?

you are strongly upset by vile comments, because here are some things you wrote in your last post above:

who gives a damn...dishonest neocon toad...dishonest bad faith...deliberately insulting provocation...insulting defense... shithead...babbling...Tool.

Those are all directed at you as an individual, "ex-liberal," and you deserve every one. (I love, by the way, you implying that calling you insulting, dishonest and posting in bad faith is an example of a "vile comment"; I'd suggest that your insultingly dishonest bad faith comments are vile, jackass.) There's a clear difference between describing you accurately and spewing hate at an entire culture. That you dishonestly conflate the two is just yet another example of your bad faith argumentation.

You really do get a sick thrill out of posting the most disingenuous bullshit you can think of, don't you, "ex-liberal"? Shame on you.

Posted by: Gregory on June 7, 2007 at 1:10 PM | PERMALINK

Try "locked pissers".

Posted by: Joe Bob Briggs on June 7, 2007 at 1:14 PM | PERMALINK

He's simply here to prevent others from talking about the things we're talking about.

Of course I don't take your comment personally. Unlike "ex-liberal," I'm capable of shame, shortstop. I'd much rather be talking about hot lesbian cheerleader nurses. :)

Y'know, I used to think "ex-liberal" was just a poor debater, dumb as a post. Then I wondered if he/she/it might not be paid to post neocon bullshit on these forums. But you're right; he/she/it obviously takes such pleasure and pride at his/her/its trolling.

Which makes "ex-liberal" a pathetic excuse for a human being, of course, but it also makes me wonder why Kevin's moderators tolerate him/her/it taking up WaMo's bandwith with such bad faith posting.

Posted by: Gregory on June 7, 2007 at 1:19 PM | PERMALINK

Nurses, too? I didn't see the nurses. Damn, those hot lesbians are accomplished. Good job, girls.

:)

Posted by: shortstop on June 7, 2007 at 1:23 PM | PERMALINK

Nurses, too? I didn't see the nurses.

Oh, you missed out then, shortstop. :)

Posted by: Gregory on June 7, 2007 at 1:29 PM | PERMALINK

I really hate missing out on good stuff. Must pay closer attention...

Posted by: shortstop on June 7, 2007 at 1:32 PM | PERMALINK

I really hate missing out on good stuff. Must pay closer attention...

Someday I'll have to share my love of (among just about every other category of exploitation films) nunsploitation films. Which, I might add, generally hail from the predominently Catholic countries of Spain and Italy.

Posted by: Gregory on June 7, 2007 at 1:44 PM | PERMALINK

If we're talking about those lesbians on Cinemax, then I'd like God to abandon me now(and be quick about it, old man.)

Posted by: Brian on June 7, 2007 at 2:01 PM | PERMALINK

The Conservative Deflator:
Excellent comment. I have also found it interesting that fundamentalists (Christian and Muslim) get more wound up over sex than they do over war or capital punshment. I find the killing of other human beings to be far more obscene and contrary to the will of the Almighty than who puts their lips or other parts of their anatomy on another person's genitalia, whether male or female. This moral constipation about what is the greatest sin, sex or killing, is one of the reasons why I will never be a conservative.

Thanks for the compliment. It truly boggles my mind as well that anyone wastes one second worrying about who's consensually boinking whom. When you really think about it, it's crazy to base a legally defined relationship on sex. Marriage started long before we were thinking in terms of employment benefits, child support and the medical power of attorney. I think now it should be about the legal commitment to share resources and raise children. People can be as irrational and sexually frenzied as they please about their weddings in the church or oak grove of their choice. Let's make marriage about two adults agreeing to obligations and getting legal rights.

Posted by: cowalker on June 7, 2007 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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