I'm tired of being a Southern victim too. If I had a quarter for every time I told I was smart for a Southerner, I could retire. The hostility is real and what happens is that Southerners get defensive which makes it worse. If you read blogs other than your own, you'll see that Southerners are routinely described as morons. After a while, it does give you a complex.

So what's the solution? Mutual respect?

Oh great. I leave out part of the verb which demonstrates how stupid I am. See how it works?

hate the south, love the southerner.

haha! I keed, I keed...

Senator Edwards needs to lay off the bong hits.

Being a Southerner is only an advantage for Republican presidential candidates in their primary races. All the Southerners afflicted with the victim complex you're talking about have been driven effectively into the GOP where they belong. Democrats don't have this problem.

I agree-- and I grew up in the south. That region has held the rest of the country in thrall for decades-- and I don't think there's any reason for the South to feel victimized or neglected.

Now that Maine and New hampshire are Blue states and Colorado and New Mexico are Purple states, the Democtrats can win the presidency without a single southern state. There is no longer any need to cater to the Southern vote, nor is there any chance of a Democrat winning a Southern state. So Edwards is mistaken. If the Democtrats want to win, they should concentrate on the Mountain West, where Edwards' Southern drawl will be of no use. Picking Bill Richardson as a running mate will help much more there.

s9 - Nice to know that I'm now a Republican. Bless your heart. Unfortunately for your stereotype, I'm a life long liberal Democrat as are many of my friends. My city votes Democratic.

Mutual respect - it is going to take someone like Obama to implement.

I'm from Kentucky. The only state we can look down upon is (Fill in the blank).

Again I ask everyone: why didn't we let the South secede? At least some of the deep south states like Mississippi, Alabama, and South Carolina. Once the slaves were freed and removed, good riddance. They would then be free to occupy all of their time until the world ends (which they always assume is just a year or two away) trying to run an economy that employs only bible salesmen, gun manufacturers, irate radio talk show DJs, and corrupt politicians. I'm sure in no time they'd have Saudi Arabia beat for the most repressive theocracy on the planet.

At the very least, couldn't we just let Texas go? That would nicely return the majority of our electoral college safely into the sane column. (We could treat Austin like Berlin and airlift in supplies).

Nyuk, nyuk. Those familiar with the politics of the 1840s and 1850s will note a similar theme. The Southern Democrats raged constantly about how they were outnumbered and the north was going to overwhelm them politically. This was the immediate reason given for the first round of seccessions after Lincoln was elected in 1860.

However, they also controlled the presidency most of this period--Buchanan was from Pennsylvania, but he was the Joe Lieberman of his day and was a slavocrat in all but name. They used the presidency to dominate the federal courts. This led naturally to the Dredd Scott Decision, promulagated by a supreme court majority of True Believers, and that decision finally galvanized northern resistance to southern bullying.

Lessons and warnings for our time?

fostert, please tell me you're joking.

Did I not hear John Edwards was leading in Iowa?

Olbermann was great today--he presented some spoofs of the Sopranos' ending.
And had a little feature on how Sir Issac Newton of gravity fame (who looked in the picture very much like a member of the younger band Pink Floyd) had thought that the world would end in 2060....ouch

hA-Ha!

Now we're finally beginning to get somewhere in questioning why the south votes the way it does. As someone rapidly approaching 60 who grew up in South Carolina, spent the middle years in Georgia, and who now lives in North Alabama I have long wondered just where the Dems lost their footing.

I hesitate to consider that either Bush 41 or Bush 43 could ever be called southerners in the classical sense. Jimmy Carter would have no problem and Bill Clinton would rightly be considered southern. By all rights Al Gore, a son of Tennessee, should be enjoying the last 2 years of his 2 term presidency.

I like John Edwards although I have not yet fully thrown my meager support to him. My wife, who voted for The Shrub twice, is enthralled by Obama. I have some problems with Hillary and have long felt that she equivocates far too much. If she would come out and say that her vote for the invasion and occupation of Iraq was ill-advised then I would have much more respect for her, but she does not seem to be able to do this. The loss will be hers.

What I want to hear from all of the candidates is a plan for national health care. For me this could be the deciding factor in who I finally decide to support.

Augustus - your post had me howling, and I live in the South (Tennessee, to be exact), and while you consciously stereotyping, there is so much truth to what you say, unfortunately.

Where I live (Weakley County), the economy (outside of agriculture) consists of:

churches (there are over 80 at last count in our tiny county, if you can fathom that)

check cashing joints

Wal-Mart

Army Reserve / National Guard

fast food

auto body shops

That's about it.

Also, I totally agree that being from the South is not really that great of an advantage when you're a Dem. Recall that Gore lost both his home state of Tennessee as well as Arkansas in 2000. Having an orthodox Jew as a running mate probably didn't help in the fundamentalist Bible Belt (an obvious issue everyone tries their best to ignore), where there are exactly 0 Jewish people in public office.

Five of our last seven presidents have been from the South and the other two have been from the Southwest — and the reason, as near as I can tell, is that most Southerners just flatly refuse to vote for anyone who comes from north of the Mason-Dixon Line.

Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush.

Not to nitpick, but since when is Michigan the South? And I've never heard southern California referred to as the "Southwest," but maybe SoCal people think of themselves that way?

kevin,

Bill Maher already brilliantly addressed this topic, why Southerners can't vote for anyone who doesn't say y'all. While the rest of us have to vote for someone who does. Check it out. He nailed it! Also said maybe they need to get over this. Duh.

Amen, brother. In fact, the North lost the Civil war, because we failed to rid ourselves of our atavistic, anti-democratic brethren in the South.

Imagine the USA as a company with 5 or 6 divisions (regions). Electing a Southerner President is like picking the head of the worst performing division to head the whole corporation.

Bull. Southerners voted against the very southern Jimmy Carter for Ronald Reagan. Reagan had no drawl.

Not to nitpick, but since when is Michigan the South?

I'm thinking he meant "elected presidents," which counts Ford out and Johnson in.

Not to nitpick, but since when is Michigan the South? I think he probably meant "five out of our least seven elected presidents." Poor ol' Gerald Ford has been described as the only US president not to be elected twice (i.e., upon his accession and upon his failed bid in 1976).

Actually Kevin, the last seven presidents are as follows:

George W. Bush - South

Bill Clinton - South

George H. W. Bush - Northeast and South

Reagan - Southwest

Carter - South

Ford - Midwest

Nixon - Southwest

I grew up for several years in Alabama where I still have family. When I moved to NYC 27 years ago, I got tired of people with Bronx and Brooklyn accents asking me why I didn't talk funny when they found out where I was from.

The only matter I will really take issue with is on the subject of racism. Having lived in the South, California and the Northeast, I can assure you that racism is everywhere.

I'm thinking he meant "elected presidents," which counts Ford out and Johnson in.

All righty. I'm still thrown by calling San Clemente/Yorba Linda and Santa Barbara/Bel Air the "Southwest," but I will defer to the folks who live near there.

chuck: I live in the South (Tennessee, to be exact)

Here's one for y'all: is West Virginia a southern state?

If not, then neither is Tennessee. The good people of Tennessee voted to stay in the union, but were ignored by the state government. Better yet, during the War Against the Treasonous Rebs, eastern Tennessee was effectively union territory. The Reb troops had to treat it as hostile, but the American troops could treat it as friendly.

Bloomberg leaves the Republican party, registers as an Indenpendant.

It is funny how Southerners feel like they're the most patriotic Americans, when they're the only region to try to secede from the country and wage war against it.

They must love America like an abusive husband on COPS loves his wife.

Bloomberg leaves the Republican party, registers as an Indenpendant.

I saw that earlier and wondered if that's an independent Independent, or a New York for Bloomberg Independent a la Joey Weeperman.

It is funny how Southerners feel like they're the most patriotic Americans, when they're the only region to try to secede from the country and wage war against it.

They must love America like an abusive husband on COPS loves his wife.

Now that was funny. Bad states, bad states, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?!

I think it means Independent with a capital $.

He's supposed to have talked about committing a billion dollars to a campaign.

I think if he commits half of that he wins in a walk.

What are you complaining about? You live in teh southwest.

The modern 'conservative revolution' has largely been a drawn-out exaction of revenge on Washington DC for the humiliations visited on the South during Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement. Having given up on the straightforwardly military option, a Southern-based constituency helped to elect three presidents who ran on a promise to disable the federal government. This was a viable program when the presidents were actually rather 'Northern' in their personal political ethos: Reagan being a kind of latter-day Emerson, and Bush Sr. being a New England aristocrat. But match a Southern-vengeance constituency with a Southern-yahoo president, and what you get is what we've gotten: fanaticism, incompetence, and chaos.

Yes, you're right. And yes, it's good to point out this smug superiority. Hopefully, if we rail against it, the press will stop treating northeasterners (and west coasters and midwesterners) as something less than 'real' Americans. And maybe they'll stop acting like Southern Baptist is the "real" Christian faith.

But that change ain't gonna happen overnight. And at the end of the day, since 1960, every single time a Southern Democrat has been nominated, he's won. Except once.

Just saying that if you think it's important to keep Republicans out of the White House, you want a Southern Democrat to run.

Ford was never elected

Kevin meant the last seven elected Presidents (or perhaps more accurately the last six elected Presidents and GW Bush.

I'd give a nickel for every time someone has commented about my Southern accent. I've lost a lot of it over the years, according to my friends down South. What's really funny is when someone in my adopted state of Virginia asks me where I got my accent, when they can't tell they have one that is just as strong.

Amen to that. I can't begin to tell you how tired I am of the South's victim complex.

You're sick of it?? I freaking live here. Just got through Jeff Davis' birthday, and Confederate Memorial Day before that. The South is the poster child for sore losers.

On the other hand, the local right wing radio is still going on about how proud they are that Sen Bishop punched out the damn librul.

Every single time, except once!

I love that.

Lets stay on topic and ignore your jealousy of the south...I'll leave that to your psychiatrist.

s9 is right, Edwards is southern-fried but isn't full circle so he has no chance with the wingnuts.

This thread should have been about Fred "Dalton" Thompson.

Every time a southerner talks about the "war of northern aggression" I want to get down on my hands and knees and beg their forgiveness for depriving them of their God-given right to buy and sell other human beings.

But the great irony is that the slave-owning class somehow fooled the small poor white farmers into doing their fighting for them.

Nothing justifies the atrocities committed by Sherman, but it's time to give it a rest.

The obsession with their own originalism or nativism, and victimhood, is characteristic of the Scots-Irish who have applied it, as far as I know, in every single circumstance they've ever found themselves in.

If they all landed in the middle of China they would quickly insist they were the original Chinese.

Feh yourself. Let's see, between 1869 and 1963, how many southerners were presidents? (I count one--that redneck president of Princeton, Woodrow Wilson). And, during that century, the South was a running joke for the rest of the country (and, if you listen to the folks who call the Clintons "white trash," still is). Maybe there's a reason for the attitude?

18 Ulysses S. Grant Ohio Alt: IL, MO, NY
19 Rutherford B. Hayes Ohio
20 James Garfield Ohio
21 Chester A. Arthur New York
22 Grover Cleveland New York
23 Benjamin Harrison Indiana
24 Grover Cleveland New York
25 William McKinley Ohio
26 Theodore Roosevelt New York
27 William Howard Taft Ohio
28 Woodrow Wilson Virginia Alt: NJ
29 Warren G. Harding Ohio
30 Calvin Coolidge Massachusetts
31 Herbert Hoover California Alt: IA
32 Franklin D. Roosevelt New York
33 Harry S Truman Missouri
34 Dwight D. Eisenhower Kansas Alt: TX, NY
35 John F. Kennedy Massachusetts

Most prejudices have some basis in reality. Since Southern states consistently score lower in educational achievement, health of their citizens, and are a net drain on tax dollars, maybe it's time for a little self-introspection.

All that being said, we are all Americans and should revel in that, instead of calling out regional differences, many of which are illusory.

Now that Michael Bloomberg has dumped the GOP, I am going to look seriously at supporting his candidacy (even though he is a plutocrat), because I am sick to death of both Democrats and Republicans at this point in American history.

shams-

No, I'm not joking. Look at the last election results and do the math. If you win all of the Mountain West except for Wyoming and Idaho, you don't need any of the South, assuming you can win in Ohio and Missouri. And it is now far more likely that a Democrat will win most of the Mountain West than win a single state in the South.

A new study released this week revealed that Americans' health care varies dramatically from state to state. It should come as no surprise that in general Southern states ranked at the bottom in almost every category. After all, whether the issue is health, education, working conditions, or virtually any indicator of social pathology, things are worst in precisely those states that voted for George W. Bush.

For the details, see:
"Health Care the Latest Red State Failure."

I have this dream of trading the New England states to Canada in trade for British Columbia. Give Florida to Cuba if they agree to take Puerto Rico instead. Take Baja just to give La Raza another reason to bitch. Move the UN to New Orleans and cede the city to them. OK, I'll take Yukon Territory, too, and that province with Calgary in it. And just before dinner take back Big Diomede.

Are we now to enshrine the U.S. presidency as a uniquely Southern institution?

Poor white neo-Confederates. They're so put upon, you'd think we were planning on pillaging and burning Columbia, SC again.

Let's see, between 1869 and 1963, how many southerners were presidents? (I count one--that redneck president of Princeton, Woodrow Wilson). And, during that century, the South was a running joke for the rest of the country (and, if you listen to the folks who call the Clintons "white trash," still is). Maybe there's a reason for the attitude?

Right. Is that "reason" lingering resentment over the lack of Southerners in the White House from 1869-1964? Y'all gotta learn to let go.

The obsession with their own originalism or nativism, and victimhood, is characteristic of the Scots-Irish who have applied it, as far as I know, in every single circumstance they've ever found themselves in.

What a coincidence, I'm a Scot-Irish puck. But I am a liberal.

http://blindintexas.blogspot.com/

Dick Morris is right on this one: Hillary Clinton will win because an overwhelming number of women voters want her to win. Their numbers dwarf that of the relatively few men voters who claim they'll not vote for a woman. But look for most of these rather bizarre male holdouts to eventually go for Hillary, too, because of Bill, if nothing else. That said, Hillary Clinton stands to be elected by a landslide that quite likely will be enough to give her working majorities in both houses of Congress, something the next president will need in order to accomplish the hard work of straightening out the awful damage done the nation by the George Bush administration, the very worst in history.

thersites: But the great irony is that the slave-owning class somehow fooled the small poor white farmers into doing their fighting for them.

I'm not sure they were all that well fooled. "Rich man's war, poor man's fight" was a Southern saying.

Nothing justifies the atrocities committed by Sherman

Committed against whom? The Indians, absolutely. The Southerners? Forget it - almost all myth.

After years of advocating it, I find myself unwilling now to write off the South.

I think a serious appeal against the culture that created the Katrina debacle, and which continues to drag out the Katrina debacle throughout the affected region, could and should be mounted.

You can have a functional and effective government and it's right that you should.

In a democracy society is government and Katrina is an unequaled illustration of the way in which Republicans and the cultural values of social conservatism have no interest or capability beyond the destruction of society, and parasitizing upon its corpse.

There's a huge audience who are willing to listen, because they know Republicans aren't going to be around to help when the next one hits.

And the other day Kevin was writing about rural populists, socially conservative but economically liberal. There's an untapped theory looking for a connection in this.

Intolerance of southerners? phooey. I can feel the love all over this board.

thewinner - That's a really nice story, but there's no polling or other evidence to back it up at all. Female voters' identification with female candidates is just not that strong.

Alex: I'm not sure they were all that well fooled.

Poor choice of verbs, perhaps. But somehow persuaded. I didn't know "Rich man's war, poor man's fight" was Southern. Has a universal sort of ring to it, going back at least 5,000 years.

But Hillary Clinton is from Arkansas.

mystifying appearance of italics annoys the above commenter.

But Hillary Clinton is from Arkansas.

She grew up in Illinois. Which makes her, I guess, about as southern as transplanted northeasterner Smirky McLush. I guess I can spot him a little bit, since he moved to Texas at age 15 or so, but people who think Poppy Bush is a Southerner are just whacked.

mystifying appearance of italics annoys the above commenter.

Ghost of Caroline Augusta Ball looking for a little added drama.

The good news is that Giuliani has no chance in South Carolina and his campaign workers would have to be on crack to suspect otherwise.

An oldie but a goody.

www.fuckthesouth.com

I had to google that, shortstop. Such a weepy old ghost.

I'm with ml. Just tonight I listened to a man here in New York City claim southerners were solely responsible for the Iraq war, referring to us as "those people." In 2004 I was living in MA, and the day after the election, I was asked--by my boss no less--to account for results. Over 30% of the state voted for Bush. One of every three Massachusettsians knew a hell of a lot better than I, but they weren't southern. I get asked on a regular basis why my accent isn't more perceptible, and the simple answer is I was made to feel stupid for having it so often that I stifled it and changed the way I speak.

To say there's no prejudice against southerners is just hokum. The media is ever more concentrated in an urban northeast that has bears little resemblance--in ideology, landscape, or lifestyle--to the rural and exurban South. This accounts for a lot of the suspicion, a suspicion I know well enough from living in New York and dealing with my own family back home.

The reason southerners like Edwards have wide appeal, however, I believe has much less to do with a stubborn refusal of southerners to vote for northerners and everything to do with rhetorical tradition of the South. Southerners understand that political speech is performance. They know the difference between being serious and being pedantic, and they understand the importance of relating to their audience. To put it another way, no one likes to be lectured, especially those who are already inclined to think you're talking down to them, but this is something that can ever be taught to a John Kerry or even a Mitt Romney. Barack Obama--lest I generalize too much---understands this very, very well.

Yes! The first crack at Giuliani! The first crack in his armor. A crack of dawn in the long dark. . .oh, just cocaine.

Well, what the hell is it with Republicans, anyway? Not even oxycontin. Cocaine is about as hip as beer nuts.

It is funny how Southerners feel like they're the most patriotic Americans, when they're the only region to try to secede from the country and wage war against it.

Hence my nickname for them -- "The Traitor States."

Just got through Jeff Davis' birthday, and Confederate Memorial Day before that. The South is the poster child for sore losers.

Again, Traitor Memorial Day.

I used to have a Southern girlfriend, we argued a few times about the Civil War. Once she pulled out that old line "one Southerner can lick ten Yankees!" To which I responded "oh yeah? Doesn't his tongue get tired?"

I've lived in Texas for most of my adult life, and I gotta say folks really are dumber down here, and they don't even know it.

As for racism, I don't know that people's attitudes are better or worse here, but the level of acceptable racism, sexism and homophobia in politics is a lot higher. And that counts for a lot. I think that is one reason why nonsoutherners vote for southern presidents (or the South's choice for president in the case of Reagan) and for Republicans in Congress. They get to vote for intolerant, ignorant assholes who would have a much harder time succeeding anywhere else. If they can't vote for Gingriches, Armeys, DeLays, etc. they get to vote for the party that supports them, and thus indirectly support the assholes and the idiocy.

Amen to being sick of that Southern victim nonsense. Pulled the country apart over slavery, keep waving the same stupid flag and singing 'The South's gonna do it again!' Do what again, tear the country apart again over something so stupidly vile the rest of world gets nauseous to think about it? Idiots.

'Member how the bombing of the Murra Federal Building was supposed to be so much worse because it happened in "America's heartland"? I kept wondering if the idea was supposed to be that bombing Manhattan would have been okay because that's the designated area for horrific terrorist acts whereas such things are NOT supposed to happen in the "heartland." Like we're all Americans but some of us are more American than others.

I thought 9/11 might have cured us of that one, but the idea does just seem to cling on. Just imagine how much worse 9/11 would have been if it had happened in the Heartland! Maybe being The Heartland is a way of compensating for not having all those amazing cultural institutions, Wall Street, CBGBs and whatnot. I guess different areas of the country have to grab whatever they can to establish their identity, but this whole "heartland" thing pisses me off a bit, much more so after 9/11.

Hey, I live in Somerville Mass, and I'm still just as "real" an American as I would be if I lived in Topeka or East Elbow OK.

This is really the same situation in Canada, but even worse. Our last prime ministers have been:

Feb 2006 - Present: Stephen Harper, Alberta (West)
Dec 2003 - Feb 2006: Paul Martin, Quebec
Oct 1993 - Dec 2003: Jean Chretien, Quebec
Jun 1993 - Dec 1993: Kim Campbell, British Columbia (West)
Sep 1984 - Jun 1993: Brian Mulrooney, Quebec
Jun 1984 - Sep 1984: John Turner, British Columbia
Mar 1980 - Jun 1984: Pierre Trudeau, Quebec
Jun 1979 - Mar 1980: Joe Clark, Alberta
Apr 1968 - Jun 1979: Pierre Trudeau, Quebec

So, all of our PM's for the last 40 years have either been Quebecois, or seat-warmers for Quebecois. It's fair to say that Quebec's intolerance of non-Quebec leaders is the primary dynamic in our federal political system.

Basically, the Liberals are the "Natural Governing Party" of the country so long as they have a "Quebecois de souche" ("real Quebecer") at the helm of the party. Paul Martin was really an anglo-Montrealler that they never really took to, but to be fair to him, Chretien refused to leave until he was certain the Liberals were going to lose under Martin, his bitter rival. When the Liberals choose a leader outside of Quebec, usually following a long Prime Ministership of a Quebec Liberal, the party inevitably enters the wilderness of opposition until they elect a francophone leader.

Frankly, I'm amazed that Harper's held on as long as he has. He's extremely lucky that the Liberals are now led by a Quebecer that's extremely unpopular in Quebec, otherwise his fate would be sealed.

Those that follow politics in Canada find this dynamic particularly irritating, regardless of whether we understand that Quebec is so important to the country's identity and stability that its loss would spell the end of Canada in a maximum of two generations. What to do? We appear to be as flummoxed by our situation as you are by yours.

Simple, eject Quebec, whether it likes it or not, then pick up one or two regions of the disintegrating US.

I think a point that has not been raised yet is that people from Southern states don't seem to like each other. If you ask someone from Texas what he/she thinks about people from Oklahoma, you are guaranteed to hear the terms "trailer-trash" and "inbred" several times. Ditto if you ask someone from Oklahoma (which is technically not in the South) about people from Arkansas, or someone from Alabama or Tennessee what they think about people from Mississippi. Also, if you ask someone from North Carolina about people from South Carolina, they will usually answer, "Well, they're poor...and they're different."

Ah, Kevin.

This post is appalling. YOu should be ashamed of yourself. You are demonizing your fellow countrymen during a war. But thats very typical of you California liberals and your Northest brethren. Those are the most antiAmerican sections of the country. Frankly this country would be better off if your were all sent frogstepping out of the country. Then maybe we could win this war.

I'm mystified. First, three, not two, of the last seven presidents were from outside the Confederacy. Second, southerners won't vote for someone with a different accent? What's the evidence for our pathology? In 1964, the Deep South, voted for Goldwater over Johnson, a Texan. In 1980, most of the South voted for Reagan over Jimmy Carter, a Georgian. In 1996, most of the South voted again for Bob Dole over Bill Clinton. All these Republican candidates may be reactionary, but they spoke with no southern accent, and they weren't southerners. Neither did that great Texan George Bush the elder.

Complain about our reaction, our racist, slave-holding past, our secession, but don't weave fantasies about our accents or xenophobia unless you cite the evidence to back it up.

Matt,

I actually feel your pain. You know, these past six years I've heard a lot of how "elitist" I am, how "unpatriotic" or "treasonous" I am, and how I am not a "real American." And this was not for anything I've done, but simply because I come from Northern California. Why, in 2006, Newt Gingrich said that if the Democrats won the House, they would impose "San Francisco Values" on the rest of the country. I mean, that really hurt that an influential and nationally recognized politician would say something like that, like there is something wrong with people from San Francisco.

Having said that, I think that ml was correct in one of the early posts when he said that "mutual respect" is the best way to go here. Whether that can or will happen is another point.

Also, I do want to say that I have a great deal of respect for many aspects of Southern Culture. And, admittedly, I like Southern accents and I think "Y'all" is one of the best words in the English language.

Correction, Kevin: Southerners, ever since 1964, have refused to vote for any Northern DEMOCRAT, for the simple reason that Northern Democrats at that time decided to provide equal treatment for those awful Nigras. Ever since then even while the civil rights revolution has continued to grind on nationwide (thus allowing even Virginia to become the first state ANYWHERE to elect a black governor, and North Carolina and Tennessee to come fairly close to electing black Senators), the South has stubbornly refused to politically forgive Northern Democrats for imposing non-racism on them -- just as they refused to vote for any Republican for one straight century after the Civil War, very long after the GOP had obviously ceased to be the Party of Lincoln and become the more conservative of the two parties. (Although the chance to put Jimmy Carter in the White House -- even as a Democrat -- was too good for them to pass up, by the 1990s that novelty had lost its savor, and they treated Clinton and Gore as honorary Northern Democrats for the purpose of mostly voting against them.)

Southerners are indeed very good at holding stubborn grudges long after they've become ridiculously pointless politically, but it's on ideological grounds rather than just on where a particular candidate came from. I imagine it will be another 30 years or so before the political hangover from our Original Curse of slavery finally fades completely.

Egbert,

Haven't you enlisted yet? Maybe we can finally win this war when you stop trolling, join the Marines, and go to Iraq.

I wrote: All the Southerners afflicted with the victim complex you're talking about have been driven effectively into the GOP where they belong.

ml quips: s9 - Nice to know that I'm now a Republican. Bless your heart. Unfortunately for your stereotype, I'm a life long liberal Democrat as are many of my friends. My city votes Democratic.

Um... yeah. Listen, if you've got the victim complex Kevin and I are talking about, then I don't see any reason to care what party you insist on identifying as yours. Zell Miller insisted on calling himself a Democrat for all the difference that made, and I don't see any reason why it ought to be any different with anyone suffering from the delusion we're talking about here. Face it, if you vote like GOP, then you're functionally equivalent to the GOP.

Being a Democrat might make a difference for you in your parochial little Southern backwater... Atlanta? Houston? Memphis? Does it matter?... but you may as well be a Republican as far as the race for the White House is concerned.

I moved from the SF Bay Area to South Carolina last year. It was a retirement move and it was primarily driven by economics. The cost of living here is much lower, but nothing in life is free. The South is indeed every bit as backward as I expected. For the southern naysayers, I'll just say I didn't reach retirement age without knowing something about every part of my country. Fortunately, where I live (in the Hilton Head area), there has been so much in-migration from the Northeast and the West that I don't have to hang out with the Sons of the Confederacy. This is truly a sad region. No hope, no nothing. Other than going after Yankee dollars, in the form of tourism or getting folks like me to move here. The schools are abominable. The best thing I can say about South Carolina schools is that the locals are able to proudly proclaim, "We're number 50! We're number 50!"

I am a retired US Army officer. Last week, I was in Gettysburg visiting an old friend, also a retired officer. As my wife and I were touring the battlefield with my friend and his wife, I wondered aloud about all of the monuments to the Confederates and noted that people like Lee are venerated in the South. I went on to say that, IMO, Lee did not deserve such veneration. He was, pure-and-simple, a traitor, a man who violated his oath (the same one my friend and I had taken) to the Constitution of the US. My friend agreed. We also agreed that we would never be able to fathom the continuing hold the Civil War has on the South and just how that has retarded the region's full integration into modern America.

Maybe some of the people defending the South here can explain just how the mysticism, nostalgia, animosity against the rest of the nation and the bible-thumping help the people of the South in any respect. Maybe they can enlighten me as to how the still prevalent plantation mentality is in any way an exemplar for the rest of the nation.

"And, admittedly, I like Southern accents and I think "Y'all" is one of the best words in the English language." - Not From The South

The loss of the plural 2nd person pronoun from formal English is truly a devolution of the language. Y'all is great. Frankly, I'll take any word that tries to restore the 2nd person plural to the language.

In my corner of Canada (Newfoundland), we still say "ye". And people get uppity on us for it, and other aspects of our dialect. I just feel like asking them why they want to make the English language less precise.

The loss of the plural 2nd person pronoun from formal English is truly a devolution of the language.

Where I come from, we say "youse."

Southern victim complex?

What the heck yew talkin' 'bout, boy? We ain't got no "vic tim complex." We jes' don't trust Yankees, heah?

Frankly, I'll take any word that tries to restore the 2nd person plural to the language.

'Fnegqk'. --from the Klingon.

For over 200 years the South has been a boat anchor around the neck of the United States. Willfully ignorant, more violent, more fundamentalist, happily choosing white supremacy over economic modernity and prosperity, the South has consistently blocked progressive legislation for the entire 20th century. Sure, there are wonderful people in the South, it has great music, but the good parts are constantly dragged down by the self-pitying, belligerent yahoo element. I live in an industrial nation where candidates are afraid to admit they believe in evolution. Thank you, Dixie.

The Civil War--Lincoln's Tragic Mistake. Should have let the assholes go.

Even if there were absolutely no current negative stereotypes about Southerners, most of us weren't born yesterday, and we can still be defensive about past experiences. When I moved from Tennessee to Connecticut in 1966, the other students, noticing that my sister and I wore shoes, asked whether other kids in Tennessee also wore shoes. My chemistry teacher made fun of my accent in class and generally berated me for being from the South. No teacher expected me to do well, so I didn't. I think they call that the "bigotry of low expectations."

A candidate might be able to win the presidency while writing off the South, but I'd like to think that anyone running for the office would want to be President of the entire country.

So Northerners are adult enough to vote for a Southerner but the reverse isn't true? Apparently this is our comeuppance for the "War of Northern aggression"(the Civil War for those who don't dwell in the past)...

Buncha fuckin babies!

"Even if there were absolutely no current negative stereotypes about Southerners, most of us weren't born yesterday, and we can still be defensive about past experiences. When I moved from Tennessee to Connecticut in 1966, the other students, noticing that my sister and I wore shoes, asked whether other kids in Tennessee also wore shoes. My chemistry teacher made fun of my accent in class and generally berated me for being from the South. No teacher expected me to do well, so I didn't. I think they call that the "bigotry of low expectations."

Trust me, that works both ways. The racism and anti-intellectualism I've had to deal with have come more from Southern transplants to New England and the Mid-Atlantic more than from people from anywhere else in the country. It's a bit like Bill Hicks's old bit about reading a book in a Waffle House in Tennessee. Most of the time I meet a southerner who doesn't act like this, they are black, Asian or in one case a former Bosnian Muslim refugee. On a side note, Virginia, at this point, is barely Southern and Texas is not so much Southern as its own unique entity, for better or worse.

Damn, you'd think there would be educated folks on this blog. No shit? There are dumb ass hicks in the south? I thought they were all in Maine. I guess "It's a small world" pertains only to the rest of the planet...

There is far more denigration of the north than the south in America's political discourse. As Not From The South mentioned, city and state names are routinely used as slander by Republican politicians.

I seem to remember a presidential candidate, running as a "uniter", trying to "unite" the country against "Massacheusetts Liberals". Who was that, I wonder? I had never heard a name of a Southern city or state used as slander by a northern politician, until recently minor figures in the Democratic Party started referring to this bunch as "Texas Republicans", which that bunch also calls themselves. I've never heard a Democrat running in a nation-wide campaign use such divisive tactics. Please find me one other example. I would gladly eat crow on this.

What I don't understand is how this "uniter" candidate got more than a few percent of the vote in Massacheusetts. If I knew he was going to lose in that state, which he telegraphed pretty blatantly, then there's absolutely no way I'd throw away my dignity along with my vote for him, after he had slandered where I was from so that he could get more votes elsewhere. What I also don't understand is how he got to run as a "uniter", while slandering Massacheusetts, without the MSM going, "WTF?!"

city and state names are routinely used as slander by Republican politicians

I live in San Francisco. I think I know a little something about this. Still, I can't imagine feeling so burned up about this kind of stupidity that I would refuse to vote for a perfectly good candidate for President just because she didn't know where to get decent sourdough.

s9,

It has nothing to do with whether or not the candidate is able to demonstrate an intimate understanding of the local culture, and everything to do with showing respect for local culture. Blatantly attacking the culture of a state or city to gin up support elsewhere is not at all an example of not knowing "where to get decent sourdough."

Refusing to support people who use you as a rhetorical punching bag is not at all about refusing to support those that don't know all your inside secrets and jokes.

Most southerners are well versed in humility. We make fun of ourselves with much more verbosity than you fine history buffs from the north could ever imagine.

Awe fuck it, let's just get Civil War II started...

In my corner of Canada (Newfoundland), we still say "ye". And people get uppity on us for it, and other aspects of our dialect. I just feel like asking them why they want to make the English language less precise.

Hey, Dismayed Liberal, my son, I knew I liked you, b'y! My girlfriend is a Newfoundlander -- in fact, she's up there right now, and we were just having a conversation about how after just a few days back home her speech is reverting to Newfoundlandese. All I've been hearing lately is about all the boil ups and mug ups she's been enjoying.....

Feh, indeed.

Fuck the South

Stefan,

Yeah, I love getting back home, and the effect it has on me, which doesn't take long to set in. I've been gone for 15 years, half my life, but I've gotten back just about every year since then, sometimes more than once. Nice to hear about your connection to "The Rock". Have you had a chance to go yourself? If not, I really suggest you let your girlfriend drag you there sometime. You'll enjoy yourself a great deal, I'm sure.

If they try to Screech you in, ask for some "Old Sam" instead of Screech. Less touristy rum, and you'll score some points with the initiators by knowing it. Maybe even enough to let you have some Old Sam instead of the foul Screech during your swear-in! I swear that stuff is reserved for tourists...and young kids learning to drink.

In fifty years, the political makeup of the South will be very different from what it is today. This is because rates of Latino immigration to states in the Deep South are very high; and in two generations, the grandchildren of today's immigrants will represent substantial pluralities, if not majorities, of the population.

Southern paleo-nationalism will still be a force in fifty-years, but it will be a spent force, irrelevant to the political calculations of national politicians.

&"Refusing to support people who use you as a rhetorical punching bag is not at all about refusing to support those that don't know all your inside secrets and jokes."

I have no dispute with that. I'll just say that when I look at the field of John Edwards' opponents, I don't see any of them who could be said fairly to be using Southerners as "rhetorical punching bags"... at best, I can see how maybe Bill Richardson or Dennis Kucinich might be a little underclueful about all those subtle and obscure inside Southern secrets and jokes, but that's about the limit.

Compare that with what I have to put up with from conservatives every time I see them sneer and hear them heckle at Nancy Pelosi and her "San Francisco liberal" constituency. Come on... you know full well what kind of image they're trying to conjure with the tone they use in their voice when they say those words. Mind you, I don't think I've ever heard that tone used by Democrats. Ever. Not once. Not even when I lived temporarily in SoCal and I was paying attention to Democratic primary races and the run-off for governor.

Could I vote for a Democrat from SoCal over one from SFO? Absolutely, yes! Bring me a progressive LA Democrat to run against Dianne Feinstein and let me prove it to you.

I simply don't believe that progressive Southerners are the ones afflicted with this parochial victim complex about non-Southern candidates for the White House. I don't want to believe in it. Please don't make me believe in it, because if I do, then I'll be able to believe a lot of other horrible things about Southerners. I want to believe that the neo-Confederate unregenerated racist, homophobic alien shitfiend wingnuts are all bunkered into the Southern GOP now. What, for the love of all that's hallowed, would they still be doing in the Democratic Party anymore?

Haven't been to The Rock yet, but we're going up to NS later this summer for one of her cousin's wedding, so maybe I'll try some Old Sam then. I may try to make it up for Christmas, but she's from one of the outports up north so it takes a while to get to from St. Johns.

By the way, tell me this line from an email I got from her today doesn't remind you of home: "Got a shopping bag of live crab from a crab boat that just came into the wharf with the day's catch. Turned out the skipper was a second cousin..." and then a lot of stuff about frozen bakeapples and partridgeberry jam from the pantry. That made me kind of homesick and I've never even been there.....

I went to grad school at UNC-CH. I did not enjoy NC, and Chapel Hill is not real southrun. The Battle Flag of Treason everywhere. I have since then had numerous opportunities to work in the South, but will never do that again, unless I really have to. The irrational resentment, the love of NASCAR, the hatred of the person of color, and the irrational, moronic elevation of a region full of nitwits as somehow culturally superior is just way too much for me to take.

I really like Illinois. Sensible place. We don't feel the need to elevate our little pile of shit over someone elses just to make ourselves superior.

s9,

Fair points. I had diverged so much from the orginal thread topic that I wasn't even thinking about Edwards' comment while I was writing. I do think that it was a bit of a desparation move on his part. He can't trail in 3rd place forever without showing that he's gaining ground on Obama and Clinton, and still keep the money coming in.

I tend to agree with you that the South has been appeased plenty, and that there doesn't seem to be anymore in it for the Democrats. That's kind of why I have some sympathy for the view that the Democrats should concentrate on the Midwest, and other regions typically Republican, where more gains can be made without bending over backwards so much. Once the South can see that the ground in the rest of the country is beginning to shift, they'll switch to voting in Democrats so that they can at least be part of the action. Right now, they've got an iron grip on one party, and the other one falling over itself to try to get their support. If they felt the party to which they're tied was about to get crushed, they'd try to get an iron grip on the other one. What really matters to them is that they continue to have the dominant voice in national affairs.

frozen bakeapples and partridgeberry jam

Oh come on. You just made that shit up, right? "Partridgeberry"?

s9,

Ah, for the days when San Franciscans could just hate L.A. Gosh, memories of chanting, "Beat L.A.! Beat L.A.!" at the 'Stick. Of course, the Giants always lost (although the 49ers usually beat the L.A. Rams, although the Rams always played us tough).

The worst part of this whole political "Red State/Blue State" mess is that Bay Area residents now have to actually like Los Angeles. Because if it wasn't for Los Angeles, California would be the largest and deepest "red state" in the union. Kevin's post is critical of Southern Republicans, but go 20 miles outside of S.F. and you will find places as "red state" as you can imagine (although there are not as many confederate battle flags).

Oh, and by the way, Southern California is NOT part of the cultural Southwest U.S (even though it is geographically located in the Southwest corner of the mainland). Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada are close, but millions of miles away culturally.

Stefan,

It sure does. We had a sailboat when we lived there, and we took our vacations up and down the coast of the island for a few years. One year we came into a port and met a fisherman. We took him out for a sail for a few hours, and then he let us take the crab legs, which were by-catch from the cod he was trying to fish (pre-moratorium days). We ended up with a garbage bag full of crab legs, and dined for a few days before chucking the rest.

Bakeapples sure are a local treat, though they aren't very sweet. Need to add some sugar to counteract the bitterness. They're a great topping on ice-cream. I think they're only found in like Newfounland and Norway (possibly Iceland?).

If your girlfriend hails from a part of Newfoundland that's a way's away from St. John's, then it sure makes it more difficult to travel there regularly. We're townies, and that undoubtedly made it possible to get back so often.

Good night all...thanks for the discussion. I need to get up in 4 1/2 hours. Stefan, I hope you have a grand ol' time in Nova Scotia b'y.

Candidates don't have to be from the South, they just can't be from New England. Minnesota and Wisconsin might raise the ire of southerners, due to those states persistent identification with progressivism. But that's about it. Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Maryland, I can't imagine those states being deal-breakers for any southerners I know. The only hard and fast rule we have from history, really, is that if you come from Mass, you better be freaking Robert Redford.

Here is my final rant of the evening,

If you want any indication of the cultural appeasement of the Southern U.S., just remember the movie "Sweet Home Alabama" with Reese Witherspoon. Which guy does she end up with, the "down to earth Southern guy," or the "yuppie from New York?" Also, who gets portrayed better, the quirky but loveable people from Alabama, or the bitchy, snooty, female, blonde mayor of NYC (played by Candice Bergan, and bears a certain resemblance to someone running for president - and not Giuliani)?

I don't mean to seem overly critical of the South. As I said above, I like the South and I met a lot of nice people from the South. But it just seems that in the last 7-10 years, Hollywood, the Media, the government, politicians, and everyone has just bent over backwards to tell us how authentic and unpretentious everyone and everything is in the South (and other red states), how great NASCAR is, and how phony everything is in urban areas. And people still seem to think they do not get any respect (Although, to be fair, the two biggest media culprits who regularly discuss how bad blue staters are are David Brooks and George Will, who have never lived in the South).

I can only speak for myself, but after a while I just get tired of hearing all of this. It also doesn't help that they helped elect the worst president in our nation's history.

Can't we just say feh to all the victim-mongers out there? I live in Jackson County NC and just came back from WalMart [our county's biggest employer.] I was in the checkout line behind an obese Cherokee family with anti-government slogans on their Tee shirts, spending some of their casino allotment or other subsidy money. One of the main reasons I might be pursuaded to vote for Obama is he's indicated it's time to move on from the victim/industrial complex.

BTW, the idea that pretty boy Edwards would carry a southern state is less likely than Fred Thompson carrying the District of Columbia.

Can't we just say feh to all the victim-mongers out there? I live in Jackson County NC and just came back from WalMart [our county's biggest employer.] I was in the checkout line behind an obese Cherokee family with anti-government slogans on their Tee shirts, spending some of their casino allotment or other subsidy money. One of the main reasons I might be pursuaded to vote for Obama is he's indicated it's time to move on from the victim/industrial complex.

BTW, the idea that pretty boy Edwards would carry a southern state is less likely than Fred Thompson carrying the District of Columbia.

lamwick weighs in with his usual bout of misinformation in challenging Hillary Clinton's support from women -- support Dick Morris, among others, says will get her the nomination and the election. No evidence, summarily claims the information-challenged lampwick.

Given the likelihood that Dick Morris has more knowledge in his big toe about what's going on than lampwick has in the entire appendage seated atop his very own shoulders, here's a bit by Anne E. Kornblut and Matthew Musk from the June 12 Washington Post:

"The consistent lead that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York has maintained over Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and others in the race for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination is due largely to one factor: her support from women.

"In the most recent Washington Post-ABC News poll, Clinton led Obama by a 2 to 1 margin among female voters. Her 15-point lead in the poll is entirely attributable to that margin. Clinton drew support from 51 percent of the women surveyed, compared with 24 percent who said they supported Obama and 11 percent who said they backed former senator John Edwards of North Carolina."

Thus, darling lampwick, before you summarily knock evidence the next time, do try to come up with some of your own. Hmmmm? That's a good boy . . . run along now.

One of the main reasons I might be pursuaded to vote for Obama is he's indicated it's time to move on from the victim/industrial complex.
Posted by: minion on June 20, 2007 at 3:24 AM | PERMALINK

You might want to double-check where he's getting his money from. Or maybe, read-up on his healthcare plan. Obama is a big money man, through and through. Like Hillary.

I've said it over and over, and I'll keep saying it:

NOTHING will change in this country, until big money is removed from politics.

yes, I've been in a bad mood for the past couple of days.

Kevin,

I sincerely hope that your situation improves and you feel better,

I think I like your posting better when you are in a bad mood.

I do hope your situation improves for the better.

"I live in San Francisco"

Lucky. And that's no snark.

Every region and state does this. You've never heard of a "favorite son" candidate? The South just takes the regional part of it a little more seriously than the rest of the country.

Yeah, look where it got Gore in 2000. A native son and veep of a popular, moderate Dem southerner- he couldn't carry Tennessee. Nor did Edwards' 04 appearance help Kerry. The GOP's base is in the South. The Dems could make inroads by choosing a moderate southerner in the Clintonian tradition. It won't. So Edwards' accent is pretty much window-dressing.

Kevin: "I can't begin to tell you how tired I am of the South's victim complex.">/i>

May you take solace in the notion that even if the Confederacy's rebellion had succeeded, its proud denizens would still have, per capita, more broken appliances and automobiles littering their front yards than anywhere else north of the Rio Grande.

thewinner -

Compare your extravagant claim about Hillary's eventual triumph in the Presidential election:

"Dick Morris is right on this one: Hillary Clinton will win because an overwhelming number of women voters want her to win. Their numbers dwarf that of the relatively few men voters who claim they'll not vote for a woman. But look for most of these rather bizarre male holdouts to eventually go for Hillary, too, because of Bill, if nothing else. That said, Hillary Clinton stands to be elected by a landslide that quite likely will be enough to give her working majorities in both houses of Congress."

with your evidence, which relates only to the Democratic Primary:

"The consistent lead that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York has maintained over Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and others in the race for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination is due largely to one factor: her support from women...In the most recent Washington Post-ABC News poll, Clinton led Obama by a 2 to 1 margin among female voters. Her 15-point lead in the poll is entirely attributable to that margin."

Now let's look at the evidence for the Presidential election (hypothetical against Giuliani, the strongest Repub at the time of polling):

"Most notably, it appears Clinton would run no stronger among women than Kerry did in 2004 -- or, for that matter, than Al Gore did when running against Bush in 2000. On average in 2007, women prefer Clinton over Giuliani by a six-point margin -- 53% to 47%, respectively. That is not much different from women's four-point preference for Kerry over Bush in 2004, or the eight-point preference for Gore over Bush in 2000."

I admit Clinton polls better than Obama among Democratic women, but that's in the primary. You were talking about the national election, where it seems clear from this last result that she has no detectable pull among Republican or independent women. So your landslide is a nice story, but unlikely, and quite unsupported by the evidence, such as it is.

"while people in Rhode Island or Oregon don't look on presidential candidates who come from regions other than their own with suspicion,"

That's just nonsense. I don't know about Oregon, but I know for a fact that many, if not most, Rhode Islanders can't stand people from the south. Anyone with a southern accent or visible religiosity is looked upon with suspicion, even scorn. Voting Democratic doesn't automatically make people tolerant, believe it or not.

I'm from upstate New York and have lived in Kentucky now for over 20 years. I really like it here, but there are a LOT of idiots. Recently, I saw a woman wearing a t-shirt that said something like 'If you think the Civil War was fought over slavery, then you don't know your history'. And there was a big confederate flag on the back. Geeeeez. What an idiot. Lots of cars around here have confederate flags on their cars. They obviously don't know that Kentucky boys fought for the Union 2 to 1. I talked to a Civil