Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

Email Newsletter icon, E-mail Newsletter icon, Email List icon, E-mail List icon Sign up for Free News & Updates

June 21, 2007
By: Kevin Drum

COMMANDER IN CHIEF....Fred Kaplan on Rudy Giuliani:

The fact is, Giuliani has no idea what he's talking about. On the campaign trail he says that the terrorist threat "is something I understand better than anyone else running for president." As the mayor of New York City on Sept. 11, 2001, he may have lived more intimately with the consequences of terrorism, but this has no bearing on his inexperience or his scant insight in the realm of foreign policy. He is, in fact, that most dangerous would-be world leader: a man who doesn't seem to know how much he doesn't know.

Hmmm. That reminds me of somebody. But who? Push? Tush? Schmush? Something like that.....

POSTSCRIPT: By the way, the academic name for this is the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Impress your friends by knowing this! Dunning and Kruger, in a famous series of tests, found that "Incompetent individuals, compared with their more competent peers, will dramatically overestimate their ability and performance relative to objective criteria." Also: "They will be less able than their more competent peers to recognize competence when they see it — be it their own or anyone else's."

In other words, the halfwits of the world all think they're geniuses. But you knew that already, didn't you?

Kevin Drum 8:45 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (106)

Bookmark and Share
 
Comments

Well, Rudy does understand milking abject fear, horror, grief and loathing for political advantage better than most of the other candidates. Almost as well as President Tush.

Posted by: shortstop on June 21, 2007 at 8:56 PM | PERMALINK

You mean Smirk? Or is that Jerk? Speaking of which, have anyone watched Lil' Bush? Any thoughts?

Posted by: Joe Klein's conscience on June 21, 2007 at 8:57 PM | PERMALINK

Shortstop,
Doesn't that apply to most Republicans?

Posted by: Joe Klein's conscience on June 21, 2007 at 9:01 PM | PERMALINK

I predict that in the year 2100, one the most frequent errors seventh-graders will make on their American history tests is to think that the Know-Nothing Movement is a nickname for American foreign policy circa 2001-2008.

Posted by: lampwick on June 21, 2007 at 9:02 PM | PERMALINK

Let's face it. All the candidates in both parties are inexperienced in foreign affairs, except for John McCain who is fading fast in the Republican race. I suppose Hillary got some experience from watching what Bill did and Romney got a smidgen of experience in arranging the Olympics. But, we are on track to elect the 3rd President in a row who lacks foreign policy experience.

Sometimes I think it would be better to eliminate the primaries go back to a system where the party big shots select the candidates in smoke-filled rooms.

Posted by: ex-liberal on June 21, 2007 at 9:08 PM | PERMALINK

Push? Tush? Schmush?

I feel strangely aroused...

Posted by: G Krellm on June 21, 2007 at 9:08 PM | PERMALINK

error, lampwick, really?

Kevin, you must be thinking of Flush -- and it's about time we did.

Posted by: Kenji on June 21, 2007 at 9:09 PM | PERMALINK

Am I alone in this? Every damn time Julie-Annie openth hith mouth, I hear Sylvesther the Cat. Kinda like I always wanted someone to ask Boris Yeltsin to say "Moose & Squrrel" I want some intrepid reporter to ask Rudy to say "Thufferin' Thuccotash!" I mean, they aren't doing any real reporting, they might as well amuse me.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on June 21, 2007 at 9:09 PM | PERMALINK

By the way, the academic name for this is the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Impress your friends by knowing this! Dunning and Kruger, in a famous series of tests, found that "Incompetent individuals, compared with their more competent peers, will dramatically overestimate their ability and performance relative to objective criteria." Also: "They will be less able than their more competent peers to recognize competence when they see it be it their own or anyone else's."

Friends, hell! I'm telling my bosses!

On second thought...

Posted by: dr sardonicus on June 21, 2007 at 9:15 PM | PERMALINK

Dunning and Kruger ought to buy out Peter Principle, INc. They would make a truly formidable team.

Posted by: marky on June 21, 2007 at 9:17 PM | PERMALINK

Blogwhoring alert...Our good friend Apollo 13 had a fabulous takedown of Rudy's fiscal follies as the Mayor of NYC at WTWC today. When I say "fabulous takedown" I mean just that. Salons blog report picked it up this morning.

[/blogwhoring]

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on June 21, 2007 at 9:19 PM | PERMALINK

"Incompetent individuals, compared with their more competent peers, will dramatically overestimate their ability and performance relative to objective criteria."

Only alpha incompetents do this. Most incompetents are happy to just lay low and stay out of trouble.

Posted by: feathered narcoleptic on June 21, 2007 at 9:28 PM | PERMALINK

i'd forgotten about that study.

what a perfect time and situation to remind us.

thanks

Posted by: orionAtl on June 21, 2007 at 9:29 PM | PERMALINK

Yep, and there is no political type that more consistently overestimates their ability to institute their policies in a way that produces the results they desire than the dedicated statist, be it a Republican or Democrat. The Fatal Conceit, indeed. The irony is that the statist is usually first to accuse an opponent that they are possessed of an alleged unwarranted Faith in decentralization, never once realizing that it is they who are given to an entirely unwarranted Faith in central controls.

Posted by: Will Allen on June 21, 2007 at 9:29 PM | PERMALINK

"In other words, the halfwits of the world all think they're geniuses."

And who are the people that have been degrading
conservatives and the religious right ????????

Posted by: TruthPolitik on June 21, 2007 at 9:37 PM | PERMALINK

The truly astute.

Next.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on June 21, 2007 at 9:39 PM | PERMALINK

Whoever parodied Will Allen at 9:29, that was freaking hilarious.

Joe Klein's conscience: Sure. But Rudy's got the built-in "Nobody knows the trouble my town has seen" thing going.

Posted by: shortstop on June 21, 2007 at 9:39 PM | PERMALINK

The title of that paper is a classic!

"Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"

Posted by: Saam Barrager on June 21, 2007 at 9:42 PM | PERMALINK

Assuming that the Will above wasn't a parody (or perhaps they all are), I wonder if he's still trying to sell the board on the notion that an active vote for a candidate is a sign of one's disregard for that candidate.

Posted by: noel on June 21, 2007 at 9:53 PM | PERMALINK

That makes Rudy the "but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express" candidate. I think he is really dangerous as he would continue most of Bush's policies and his incompetence.

And you know how dangerous a little knowledge is.

Posted by: mikeel on June 21, 2007 at 9:53 PM | PERMALINK

"The truly astute." don't have to belittle other people.

Posted by: TruthPolitik on June 21, 2007 at 9:56 PM | PERMALINK

No, we don't have to...

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on June 21, 2007 at 9:58 PM | PERMALINK

On the campaign trail he says that the terrorist threat "is something I understand better than anyone else running for president." As the mayor of New York City on Sept. 11, 2001, he may have lived more intimately with the consequences of terrorism, but this has no bearing on his inexperience or his scant insight in the realm of foreign policy. He is, in fact, that most dangerous would-be world leader: a man who doesn't seem to know how much he doesn't know.

I'd take this in a slightly different, albeit non-contradictory way. Giuliani isn't claiming to "know" anything; he's laying claim to the mantle of Victim. He wants to occupy the central role in the drama of victimolatry that 9/11 unleashed. We were wounded, therefore whatever havoc we wreak is justified. Therefore all the havoc we've been wanting to wreak in retaliation for our woundedness--9/11 or not--is unleashed. All the bashing and smashing the warmongers have wanted for decades, 9/11 or no, finds its justification. The authoritarian police-state they've wanted to create at home for decades, 9/11 notwithstanding, finds its justification (oh a sad necessity, but a necessity nonetheless).

He's trying to position himself at the exact epicenter of that destructive emotional vortex. Whether the maelstrom is still gathering steam or finally starting to peter out is the only real question raised by his candidacy. And that of the GOP candidates generally, actually, but the difference is that the others are stuck puttering about the margins of the great sucking vortex: McCain with his rational-sounding arguments about troop strengths and whatnot in Iraq is falling far short. Romney with his attempt to out-Giuliani Giuliani (I want TWO Guantanamos! Two is more!) falls pathetically short. Thompson just acted in some movies about this kind of stuff.

But Giuliani was the guy who was actually there, therefore his victimhood burns with a pure white flame and his victimolatrous lust for vengeance is truer and keener and more tank-brained and bloodthirsty than anyone's. He is the one who will finally dismantle the terr'ists AND our Constitution in one magnificent Mad-Max auto-da-fe, just let him at it!

Posted by: DrBB on June 21, 2007 at 9:58 PM | PERMALINK

Dunning and Kruger--thanks for that reference. I've been wanting to track that one down for about a year now, off and on, and never could come up with the right search terms to tag it with. Bloody name aphasia, the bane of my existence. Now if I could just track down that study showing that conservatives/authoritarians are apparently neurologically incapable of processing irony my life will be complete.

Posted by: DrBB on June 21, 2007 at 10:07 PM | PERMALINK

"Those who say don't know, those who know don't say."

Posted by: eeyore13 on June 21, 2007 at 10:20 PM | PERMALINK

"Incompetent individuals, compared with their more competent peers, will dramatically overestimate their ability and performance relative to objective criteria."

Kind of like how everyone thinks they're a good driver? All those Alpha male a**holes who tailgate everybody and weave around people on the highway for no reason to show what great drivers they are, are all thinking, "How could I not be a great driver? I'm me and I'm great and I'm a tough-guy."

So all those incompetents will have confidence like they're great, eve relative to those who are more competent, and then we'll elect them based on the perceived confidence? Sounds like a case to be made for better educating our populace so they don't get won over by blowhards.

Posted by: Swan on June 21, 2007 at 10:28 PM | PERMALINK

And who are the people that have been degrading
conservatives and the religious right ???????

They're degrading themselves, of course.

Some are attaching their political futures to an incompetent and corrupt administration. They deserve what they get. But even worse are those who deliberately attach their religious beliefs to that incompetence and corruption.

Posted by: bob on June 21, 2007 at 10:29 PM | PERMALINK

Well, if you are hiring a truck driver, don't you want to hire someone who was run over by a truck?

Posted by: michael on June 21, 2007 at 10:33 PM | PERMALINK

eve relative to those

Should have been "even relative to those"

Posted by: Swan on June 21, 2007 at 10:37 PM | PERMALINK

Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability.

There is such a thing as a humor assessment test?

Posted by: ogmb on June 21, 2007 at 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

Blue Girl, who you calling a stute?

Posted by: bmaz on June 21, 2007 at 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

Ah, Kevin.

And who determines who's incompetent Kevin? A bevy of liberals in their ivory tower? A federal blue ribbon panel staffed with buraucratic hacks?

Who's incompetent Kevin? Do you know? Do you deem me incompetant because I don't drink what your shovelling?

Posted by: egbert on June 21, 2007 at 10:52 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, eggy, do try not to drink what people are shoveling. Anyway, Dick Cheney is keeping your mouth full. Keep smiling!

Posted by: Kenji on June 21, 2007 at 10:55 PM | PERMALINK

"Push? Tush? Schmush?"

No need to pretend you can't remember, Drum. I mean you did follow him into Iraq, no? That ought to be plastered on your blog like a warning label.

Posted by: CJR on June 21, 2007 at 10:58 PM | PERMALINK

And who determines who's incompetent Kevin? A bevy of liberals in their ivory tower?
No. History determines who's incompetent.

Do you deem me incompetant because I don't drink what your shovelling?

No, egbert. It's your spelling.

Posted by: thersites on June 21, 2007 at 11:01 PM | PERMALINK

No, egbert. It's your spelling.

Ouch.

BTW, the rightwing equivalent of A bevy of liberals in their ivory tower is A flock of wingnuts in their mothers' basements

Posted by: floopmeister on June 21, 2007 at 11:13 PM | PERMALINK

This thread is as good a place as any to remind people of this prediction from Kevin (June 15):

Bush doesn't care. He's not running for reelection, after all, and at 29% his approval rating can only fall two more points,

I bring this up because Bush has in fact just polled at 26% in the latest Newsweek poll.

Kevin thought it couldn't be done, but I knew Bush had it in him.

Posted by: frankly0 on June 21, 2007 at 11:14 PM | PERMALINK

Do you deem me incompetant because I don't drink what your shovelling?

No, egbert, we deem you incompetent because you have proven yourself to be a blithering idiot time and again.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on June 21, 2007 at 11:24 PM | PERMALINK

In martial arts we used to call this "yellow belt syndrome" - students who've trained for two or three months will eagerly get into confrontational situations that a more experienced...or LESS experienced person would walk away from, thinking they've got Teh Mad Skillz to take on any opponent! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, indeed.

Posted by: SMurph on June 21, 2007 at 11:32 PM | PERMALINK

Fred Kaplan says Rudy is stupid. Wow, that is pretty much like the inbred banjo playing boy in Deliverance saying you are a backwoods hick.

Posted by: bmaz on June 21, 2007 at 11:38 PM | PERMALINK

"yellow belt syndrome"

LMAO! I had not thought of that for years! Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on June 21, 2007 at 11:40 PM | PERMALINK

BTW, the rightwing equivalent of A bevy of liberals in their ivory tower is A flock of wingnuts in their mothers' basements

Nah. The proper term is a pride of wingnuts in their mothers' basements.

Posted by: Disputo on June 22, 2007 at 12:30 AM | PERMALINK

A flock of wingnuts in their mothers' basements

A virtual hive, dude. A network of pod-basements each containing a fourlegged invertebrate with a tough outer shell. Beavering furiously so the queen may live.

Anyway, I'm on the main floor.

Posted by: feathered narcoleptic on June 22, 2007 at 12:42 AM | PERMALINK

Its all summed up in my all time favorite movie line (from Susan Sarandon in Bull Durham):

"I knew Nuke would be alright. The world is made for those who aren't cursed with self-awareness."

Unfortunately, the rest of us are cursed with them!

Posted by: Susan on June 22, 2007 at 12:45 AM | PERMALINK

Michael Scheuer, the former head of the CIA bin Laden unit and the author of Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror, endorsed Congressman Ron Paul, stating that out of the eighteen individuals running, seventeen had no clue what Al Qaeda was about.

Ron Paul is not only the only candidate who understands Al Qaeda, he is the only candidate who grasps foreign policy as whole and understands that are strength is in nontintervention. Unlike McCain, Edwards, and Hillary, he voted against the Iraq War, which was among the worst strategic blunders in our history.

The Iraq War is not the only foreign policy issue that separates Paul from the crowd. All of the candidates, including Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Bill Richardson, Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, Mitt Romney, and Fred Thompson are interventionists. They believe in maintaining outdated Cold War alliances and entangling the U.S. where there is no vital interest at stake.

Ron Paul is the only principled noninterventionist in the race. He is the only one who has proven himself to both understand foreign policy and be willing to stand up for what is right.

Posted by: brian on June 22, 2007 at 1:02 AM | PERMALINK

Being scared of foreign policy is not the same as understanding it.

Posted by: Disputo on June 22, 2007 at 3:40 AM | PERMALINK

Ah the cowardly, dishonorable and yes, incompetent Eggfart. I love it when his posts are immediately and perfectly self-refuting.

Do you deem me incompetant because I don't drink what your shovelling?

It's like a zen koan of inept trollery. God what a lackwit.

Posted by: DrBB on June 22, 2007 at 6:38 AM | PERMALINK

floopmeiser: A bevy of liberals in their ivory tower...A flock of wingnuts in their mothers' basements

I had been told that it was "a bicker of liberals" and an "irony of wingnuts" but you know how it is with these group terms.

That is a great line of research, the research on competence. The scary bit, iirc, is that even when you provide feedback that they are overrating their performance, the incompetent don't get it. They haven't learned the meta-knowledge that they need in order to comprehend how little they actually know. Instead they say things such as "people are biased against because I'm (insert excuse here..so visionary, conservative, Christian.)"

Posted by: PTate in FR on June 22, 2007 at 7:42 AM | PERMALINK

In other words, the halfwits of the world all think they're geniuses. But you knew that already, didn't you?

I know that--and it comes from spending time with liberals on this blog, that's for certain.

While I am heartily disappointed that Rudy didn't bring his expertise to the Iraq Study Group, which the President wisely chose to ignore, I am impressed with the fact that Rudy chose not to overwhelm others with his abilities. Let's face it--had he been one the Iraq Study Group, old man Baker would have stepped aside and it would have been chaired--not shared--by Guiliani.

Let's give credit where credit is due--Rudy is most emphatically NOT one to hog the spotlight.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 8:18 AM | PERMALINK

Let's give credit where credit is due--Rudy is most emphatically NOT one to hog the spotlight.

Gott in himmel. Look, it is possible to support a candidate without ascribing to The Leader Perfection in All His Divine Attributes. You do realize that, don't you? Hard to imagine someone getting through college and not having been taught that this kind of thing actually weakens your case. But then I guess elementary rhetoric is no longer a requirement anymore. There's no inherent contradiction in thinking Rudy would be a good president and recognizing he is not a god, utterly without stain or blemish. Especially when the "flaw" is something as trivial and universally attested as this one.

The utterance is almost eggbertian in its instant self-refutation. Rudy NOT a spotlight hog?

Honestly, Normie, if I didn't know you for the authoritarian thug you both are and pretend to be, I'd accuse you of having developed a sense of irony.

Posted by: DrBB on June 22, 2007 at 8:55 AM | PERMALINK

feathered narcoleptic: A virtual hive, dude. A network of pod-basements each containing a fourlegged invertebrate with a tough outer shell. Beavering furiously so the queen may live.

Anyway, I'm on the main floor.

So damn funny.

Posted by: shortstop on June 22, 2007 at 8:57 AM | PERMALINK

Honestly, Normie, if I didn't know you for the authoritarian thug you both are and pretend to be, I'd accuse you of having developed a sense of irony.

Uh, DrBB...

Oh, never mind.

Posted by: shortstop on June 22, 2007 at 8:59 AM | PERMALINK

Honestly, Normie, if I didn't know you for the authoritarian thug you both are and pretend to be, I'd accuse you of having developed a sense of irony.

Define "irony."

Can't do it, can you? Just like all of the members of your self-obsessed, narcisistic generation, you use sarcasm and irony where expressing what you actually think would normally be displayed. You fritter away valuable time trying to think of clever things to say. You live in a world you don't understand.

Rudy will make a fine President, insane ramblings of liberals notwithstanding. Rudy needs a stage to appear on, and the ISG was not that stage. Had he actually showed up and had he given them his thoughts on the matter, you'd be attacking him for overwhelming the ISG with his vast knowledge and expertise.

You think Dennish Kucinich should actually be in charge--I get that. Between Kucinich--the failed boy mayor of Cleveland--and Guiliani--the man who took over New York City and made it liveable again--who do you think is the halfwit?

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 9:11 AM | PERMALINK

"the halfwits of the world all think they're geniuses"

Kevin's genius is to be able to put a complicated scientific finding into twenty-five pungent words, or less.

Posted by: David in NY on June 22, 2007 at 9:16 AM | PERMALINK

"Let's give credit where credit is due--Rudy is most emphatically NOT one to hog the spotlight."

We must be talking about different people. We're talking about the former mayor of NYC and Republican presidential candidate. Which Rudy Giuliani were you referring to? :-)

Posted by: Indiana Joe on June 22, 2007 at 9:18 AM | PERMALINK

Define "irony."

I pose an example. One is a pseudo-troll who adopts the persona of an exaggerated authoritarian thug in order to lampoon such persons. The pose of the speaker is at odds with his actual thought and intent; the target of his pose is lackwits who actually think the way his persona does. Hence, irony.

Another is an actual troll who adopts the persona of an exaggeratedly authoritarian thug, but who is in fact an authoritarian thug, if slightly less so than his posture. The target of the pose is, as near as can be determined either null or himself. Thus, not ironic.

I did misspeak, further upthread, when I said it's conservatives who were found to lack a sense of irony. I believe it was actually authoritarians. This is borne out in the fact that several of the chief progenitors of modern English wit, Johnson and Pope, would be fairly considered "conservative" insofar as that term can be meaningfully transported across several centuries. They surely understood the essential characteristic of irony: the distinction between the literal sense of the utterance and the actual intent of the utterer. But I don't think they could be fairly characterized as authoritarians. They were keenly aware of the (often risible) human shortcomings of their social betters, and quite capable of mocking same, while remaining supporters (unlike, perhaps, Swift) of the "due order of things."

Whereas you, despite your posturing, don't really understand the concept of wit at all. A true authoritarian at heart, who adopts the "pose" of, well, an authoritarian. To no satirical effect except a self-inflicted one. Rather odd, really.

Posted by: DrBB on June 22, 2007 at 9:26 AM | PERMALINK

Indiana Bonehead:

We must be talking about different people. We're talking about the former mayor of NYC and Republican presidential candidate. Which Rudy Giuliani were you referring to?

I speak of a gentle man who defended his city. A man who stepped aside for Michael Bloomberg and graciously handed over the keys. A man who sits in the stands during a New York Yankees ballgame and shifts uncomfortably in his seat because he doesn't want the cameras to focus on him--he wants the cameras to focus on his old friend Joe Torre or on the action packed game on the field. A man who gives speeches people actually want to hear. A man who's public persona and private life are always in perfect concert with each other. Yes, Rudy has had troubles. We have all had troubles.

Just yesterday, I found out one of my old friends, Paula Zahn, had left her husband. I wanted to reach out to her and say, "Bunny, you go girl." (Bunny was my pet name for her. I bought her a rabbit, but she lived in a building at that time that wouldn't allow it, so we let the rabbit loose in Central Park. I think it ended up being hit by a bus.)

Rudy made New York a city where you could live in once again. (Rabbit carcasses, notwithstanding.) I remember working on Wall Street in 1987, and I had to go to work with a security guard named Henley and I had to keep a .357 magnum in my waistband to fend off muggers. I was once knocked down by three toughs and the gun clattered into the gutter, falling down a drain. I had to use my briefcase to fend them off and I had to run into a peepshow to get help. THAT'S the New York that existed in the days of David Dinkins. Crack addicts everywhere, stealing whatever they could, even your shoes, in order to get money.

And Rudy saw this, and put it right. It was never about him--it was about the city.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 9:31 AM | PERMALINK

a very good bk. about the dunning-kruger effect is dunning's 2005 bk. entitled: self-insight:
roadblocks and detours on the path to self knowledge. this bk. is 240 pages and is (unfortunately) $55.00 (a large no. of full excerpted pages, however, are available to read,
for free, on amazon.com --- certainly enough to decide whether or not you might want to buy the
bk. or make trip to the library to take it out).

Posted by: wschneid25 on June 22, 2007 at 9:32 AM | PERMALINK

There is a lot of confusion about the whole notion of "experience." I read a lot, travel a lot, and "know" as much or more about foreign policy issues as any of the candidates running. But that doesn't imply ability to set an agenda, order priorities, or organize an effort to carry them forward. That last piece is where political skill comes in, something that knowledge and "experience" can't buy.

Posted by: Matt on June 22, 2007 at 9:36 AM | PERMALINK

And as for the whole diversionary screed on Kucinich: da whah? I'd happily recognize Kucinich's shortcomings. Very different from Giuliani's, but whereas I don't want either of them to be president, they both scare me for different reasons. Anyway, you're just flailing about there old sock. Throwing random spitballs and hoping to hit some target or other.

Posted by: DrBB on June 22, 2007 at 9:37 AM | PERMALINK

BTW--Giuliani is a natural authoritarian, something useful in New York at the time (I work but don't live there, and so get to have an opinion), but dangerous in a president. And he is running as an authoritarian. There will be another major terrorist attack one day. I want our constitutional republic to survive it.

Posted by: Matt on June 22, 2007 at 9:40 AM | PERMALINK

Normie at 9:31 AM

Funniest shit I've read here in years!!

Posted by: bigcat on June 22, 2007 at 9:40 AM | PERMALINK

Between Kucinich--the failed boy mayor of Cleveland--and Guiliani--the man who took over New York City and made it liveable again--who do you think is the halfwit?

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 9:11 AM

Giuliani, no question. Halfwit may even be generous - this is the dope who suggested Bernie Effing Kerik to be Director of Homeland Security.
And as a NYer I can tell you NY does NOT (heart) Giuliani. Many of us liked Times Square just fine the way it was.

Posted by: Max on June 22, 2007 at 9:41 AM | PERMALINK

I'd happily recognize Kucinich's shortcomings. Very different from Giuliani's, but whereas I don't want either of them to be president, they both scare me for different reasons.

A man who stands tall against terrorism can't possibly have any shortcomings, sir. Unless of course, you want the terrorists to win. Is that it? You oppose Rudy because, like most liberals, you want to terrorists to strike mightily into the heart of America and kill off the old order, bringing for a new order where a multi-cultural polyglot of idealogues replaces the white male power structure, is that what I detect?

Sorry, bub. This white male does not seek to dominate the world, but he damned sure is not going to let some terrorist take over America and make women wear bur'qaas. I will not allow that kind of aggression to supplant the freedoms we have here at home. I stand shoulder to shoulder with Rudy against that kind of liberal fantasy.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 9:42 AM | PERMALINK

Re Paula Zahn:

And a name-dropper to boot. Is the crassness a pose? Well, sort of, in that it is deliberately in-your-face, to use the colloquialism. But is he lampooning that crassness? Er, well, no. Therefore, simply crass. Why? Who can say?

Posted by: DrBB on June 22, 2007 at 9:45 AM | PERMALINK

bigcat: Normie at 9:31 AM. Funniest shit I've read here in years!!

Seconded. Plus, those Wall Street peepshows were a blight. Now all gone, thanks to Gentle Rudy.

Posted by: shortstop on June 22, 2007 at 9:46 AM | PERMALINK

Many of us liked Times Square just fine the way it was.

Bwah hah hah hah hah hah!

So you liked having transsexual maniacs with guns and butter knives stabbing people just to get their pocket change! Typical liberal moonbat!

My good man Matt said:

BTW--Giuliani is a natural authoritarian, something useful in New York at the time

You're darned right, sir! There used to be a man who paraded up and down the street where I worked. He wore an orange sweatshirt and garbage bags--fifty or sixty garbage bags--and he threw urine at people who didn't give him change. He bit a man on the ankle who worked in our client services department and the man had to have a rabies shot in his abdomen. (Or was it tetanus? Anyone remember) He jumped on a cab one time and "surfed" it down the street until the cab driver panicked and ran over a Rottweiler and its owner.

Rudy took care of these issues, and for that, I say God Bless him.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 9:48 AM | PERMALINK

remark relative to comment above by wschneid25:

there is a third alternative: wait for it to come
out in paperback.

Posted by: ezimmer on June 22, 2007 at 9:51 AM | PERMALINK

Then there was this fellow called Mr. Phlegm. He was constantly spitting and clearing his throat and swinging a bag full of old, broken calculators around. He was usually dressed in coveralls and a poncho--does anyone remember seeing him? They say he was an accountant with Arthur Andersen back in the days when AA was actually a choice place to work. Some say he lost his mind working on a client that had ties to the movie business--movie business accounting is more of a leap of faith into the unknown than it is a matter of actually tracking numbers and making them add up.

Mr. Phlegm had a "bumfight" one day with a man who wore two orange roadcones on his shoulders and called himself "No Parking Zone." They commenced to fighting one day as I was walking to lunch with several of my junior partners. This was in the days when there were no cops on the streets--Dinkins was mayor, and Dinkins basically told the police to leave the city to its own devices. Mr. Phlegm blinded "No Parking Zone" and threw one of his road cones onto a passing garbage truck. They grappled for a while, threw weak punches that drew catcalls from those of us who can appreciate a decent bumfight and then scrambled into an alley after the Chinese restaurant threw out their morning trash.

I wish I had had the foresight to film these daily brawls in the streets of New Jack City, as it was once known. I could have made millions marketing the "bumfights" and "boyfights" type videos that people love so much.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 10:06 AM | PERMALINK

Many of us liked Times Square just fine the way it was.

Bwah hah hah hah hah hah!

So you liked having transsexual maniacs with guns and butter knives stabbing people just to get their pocket change! Typical liberal moonbat!
[...]
Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 9:48 AM |


Forced to resort to straw men and name calling - not much of a debater I see.

I believe what I said was "Many of us liked Times Square just fine the way it was."

Then I said your hero wanted BERNIE EFFING KERIK to secure the homeland. For his mob buddies, presumably.

Posted by: Max on June 22, 2007 at 10:09 AM | PERMALINK

Then I said your hero wanted BERNIE EFFING KERIK to secure the homeland. For his mob buddies, presumably.

As opposed to whom? A democrat? Don't make me sneer at you from afar.

One of the most gripping and audacious bumfights I ever saw was in Times Square. Never mind why I was there.

Grubbycakes McGee and Wheelchair Sam faced off against each other for a full half an hour before one of those rent-a-cops on a horse broke it up. Grubbycakes used a pliers, a shoe and a trash bag to knock Wheelchair Sam off his game. Wheelchair Sam, for those of you who haven't been to New York City, was an iconic fixture in the neighborhood. He claimed to have had his legs taken off by a sadistic interrogator in a North Korean prison camp. Actually, he was a forgetful diabetic.

I do not relish the days of watching bumfights and placing small wagers on the outcome with complete strangers. I do not miss the days of weirdos and freaks being in charge of who could walk on whatever part of the sidewalk. There is no nostalgia in my bones for the days of wondering whether to shoot someone in the leg and run for the nearest brightly lit bodega.

New York City is now a liveable place, and Rudy made it so. I relish the thought of Rudy being President. One might consider travelling to the Nation's capital once again.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 10:24 AM | PERMALINK

The people must understand that as long as we are willing to endure the Democrat/Republican duopoly, we shall continue to have marionettes leading us rather than statesman. With the exception of Ron Paul, can anyone really believe that there is a real statesman in the current bunch presidential candidates?

Anyone who has made observations of our political process since 10th grade civics knows that governmental power no longer emanates from the people. I contend that the concentration of wealth in the US results in the concentration of economic power. This power is dispensed to government in various ways to achieve the goals of a small minority who Gore Vidal has rightly called "The owners of the country."

Despite the enormous resources leveraged against the public by special interests, there is a remedy to the costly corruption represented by the duopoly Democrat/Republican party. Frankly, I am amazed that those interested in authentic democracy have not embraced the idea before.

If one believes in participatory democracy, it follows that they must also believe that as many citizens as possible should have the opportunity to serve in public office. My idea does not require time or resources. There are no financial contributions to be made no meetings to attend no speeches to endure. A citizen need only make the following pledge to himself then herald what he has done to others. The formation of a One Term and Out political party would also help impede the current pay-to-play governmental system.

The Pledge:

With the recognition that there are huge numbers of intelligent, talented and qualified citizens who are prepared to limit their public service to one term, I hereby pledge that I will not vote a second term for any United States Senator or United States Congressman.

Posted by: Lewis Walsh on June 22, 2007 at 10:31 AM | PERMALINK
Also: "They will be less able than their more competent peers to recognize competence when they see it — be it their own or anyone else's."

This is, in many respects, more significant (when it comes to, say, the Presidency) than overestimating their own competence. One of the things I heard Bush defenders who couldn't manage to ignore his own ignorance say during the 2000 campaign was that Bush didn't have to know all that much about substantial policy issues because he would "surround himself with the best people".

Kind of hard to do if the "Decider" can't identify competence in others.

Posted by: cmdicely on June 22, 2007 at 10:35 AM | PERMALINK

I must say that this "shy and retiring Giuliani" line of argument is thoroughly baffling on two levels. One, what on earth is a politician who is not a camera hog? And to make such an assertion about a NYC mayor is ridiculous. "Oxymoron" doesn't half come up to it. Being a flamboyant camera hog is not a knock against a NYC mayor. It's a friggin' JOB requirement. From at least Fiorello LaGuardia on. I can think of few exceptions. Abe Beame maybe. But criminy--look at Ed Koch. Look at Mike Bloomberg. This is something New Yorkers DEMAND from their mayors. Which raises the second level: why pitch your rhetorical tent on such weak sand anyway? What is the point? Giuliani terrifies me as a presidential prospect, but in no wise does his being a camera hog enter into it. They're ALL camera hogs; it's their nature. If anything, it's an asset in that it is the one little fragment of NYC-style genuineness that clings to the guy.

The only conclusion I can reach is that we are indeed dealing with the authoritarian mindset in which NO criticism, however mild or potentially humanizing, can be tolerated.

Not a little sad. But mainly just weird.

Posted by: DrBB on June 22, 2007 at 10:38 AM | PERMALINK

Then I said your hero wanted BERNIE EFFING KERIK to secure the homeland. For his mob buddies, presumably.

As opposed to whom? A democrat? Don't make me sneer at you from afar.

You wouldn't have to choose a Democrat to avoid putting someone with known ties to organized crime in charge of DHS, but it's understandable why one might think so.

Grubbycakes McGee and Wheelchair Sam faced off against each other for a full half an hour before one of those rent-a-cops on a horse broke it up.

[...]

I do not relish the days of watching bumfights and placing small wagers on the outcome with complete strangers.

Is that why you:

a) watched for a full half an hour

b) wager(ed) on the outcome
and

c) remembered (or manufactured) and posted so many of these lovely anecdotes?

I wish I had had the foresight to film these daily brawls[...] I could have made millions marketing the "bumfights"

Nice! You're a real ace. Enjoy your sneering and your abusive exploitation fantasies.
Have a nice day.

Posted by: Max on June 22, 2007 at 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

The only conclusion I can reach is that we are indeed dealing with the authoritarian mindset in which NO criticism, however mild or potentially humanizing, can be tolerated.

You just described Hillary Clinton and Barbara Boxturtle:

Appearing on John Ziegler's evening show on KFI 640 AM in LA, U.S. Senator James Inhofe says he overheard Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) and Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) saying they want a "legislative fix" for talk radio.

You rail about "authoritarian" impulses while Liberals attempt to change the laws so that conservative commentators on talk radio can be run out of business--despite the fact that the free market has made them successful! Would Rudy do that? Of course not. Rudy is too mindful of the free markets and would actually work to END authoritarianism--as espoused by Clinton and Boxturtle, not create more of it. What a rube you are!

Shame, shame on you for being an ignorant boob. You wouldn't know what you're talking about if the substance of the matter bit you on the ass and instigated a righteous bumfight with you.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 10:49 AM | PERMALINK

Is that why you:
a) watched for a full half an hour
b) wager(ed) on the outcome and
c) remembered (or manufactured) and posted so many of these lovely anecdotes?

First of all, Mr. Maxi-pads, I am a sporting man. I enjoy competition and I enjoy a little blood with my sport. Nothing harmful, of course.

Second, wagering on bumfights is not a crime per se, at least, not if the two parties engaged in said transaction do so without intent to profit outrageously and then work behind the scenes to encourage the bumfight or to affect its outcome. I have been known to toss pieces of plywood, detached rebar or heavy stones towards combatants and yell at them to "cowboy up" but I did so only because I believe in the spirit of competition. No bums that I know of have ever been seriously injured. Permanently injured, perhaps. But not seriously enough to warrant transportation by a medical helicopter.

Third, the free market decides who sees what and what they enjoy. Not you. Not your crazy moonbat Senators. The free market.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 10:57 AM | PERMALINK

You wouldn't have to choose a Democrat to avoid putting someone with known ties to organized crime in charge of DHS, but it's understandable why one might think so.

You've never been to Chicago, New Jersey, or Harry Reid's office, now have you?

Bwah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah!

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 11:02 AM | PERMALINK

Unless of course, you want the terrorists to win. Is that it? You oppose Rudy because, like most liberals, you want to terrorists to strike mightily into the heart of America and kill off the old order, bringing for a new order where a multi-cultural polyglot of idealogues replaces the white male power structure, is that what I detect?

Um, no. Throwing spitwads at random. Pointless and what's worse, not even particularly clever or amusing ones. I believe you said something about a phlegm spitter upthread? You're a member of thet club, apparently.

A man who stands tall against terrorism can't possibly have any shortcomings, sir.

Well, proving my point about your true nature, obviously. But why? Why can't such a person have any shortcomings? Why shouldn't they? Why would you want such a leader? You have the mentality of an assembly-line robot, a machine tool. What's more, you like it like that. I find it honestly perplexing. Conservatism I can understand. I like and respect quite a number of conservatives--people in my immediate family, former academic colleagues who I revere, but they don't suffer--hell, eagerly embrace--this kind of non-thought and call it good. It really leaves me baffled. What's the attraction?

Posted by: DrBB on June 22, 2007 at 11:04 AM | PERMALINK

Shame, shame on you for being an ignorant boob. You wouldn't know what you're talking about if the substance of the matter bit you on the ass and instigated a righteous bumfight with you.

Well, I'd say you're having quite a bumfight all on your own there, guy, so I guess we're covered in that area.

Tedium sets in.

Posted by: DrBB on June 22, 2007 at 11:11 AM | PERMALINK

Man you're obsessed with these bumfights of yours aren't you?

Who said anything about wagering on them being a crime? I merely wondered why you watched, wagered and posted about them multiple times yet "do not relish the days of watching bumfights and placing small wagers". Seemed a little, you know, incongruous if not totally fabricated - like your concern for the "competitors" or their injuries.

How manly of you to enjoy competitive bumfighting and call me Mr. Maxi-pad (not to mention how accurately it displays your towering intellect). In fact, I happen to enjoy sports, wagers and the free market immensely myself - guess we have somehing in common after all. Save the maxipad for yourself though - your flow seems pretty heavy.

Posted by: Max on June 22, 2007 at 11:12 AM | PERMALINK

I speak of a gentle man [Tell that to Abner Louima or Amadou Diallo] who defended his city. [You don't seem to comprehend the difference between "defending his city" and "not making a fool of himself on TV after his city was successfully attacked". To say that his performance on 9/11 was better than GWB's is no high praise. What exactly, did he do to defend NY, apart putting the emergency response center inside the most obvious terrorist target in the city, and leaving the first responders with a radio system that had been shown to be inadeqate in the 1993 attack?] A man who stepped aside for Michael Bloomberg and graciously handed over the keys. [His damn term had expired and he was term-limited--I suppose we should be glad he didn't lead a coup] A man who sits in the stands during a New York Yankees ballgame [He's been shown to have received more than $300,000 in unreported, illegal gifts from the Ynakees] and shifts uncomfortably in his seat because he doesn't want the cameras to focus on him--he wants the cameras to focus on his old friend Joe Torre or on the action packed game on the field. [Yeah, he's well-know for his modesty and self-effacing manner] A man who gives speeches people actually want to hear. [Name someone, other than himself and his current wife, who wants to hear his tedious bombast] A man who's public persona and private life are always in perfect concert with each other [WTF? Are you suggesting that if elected president, he'll cheat on us and run for president of France?]

Posted by: rea on June 22, 2007 at 11:17 AM | PERMALINK

Giuliani has and always will be a fear mongerer. Other than standing tall with the backdrop of fallen and smoldering buildings behind him, to what practical purpose has he served defending this country? It's so easy to close the door after horse has left the barn and say "aha! I'm protecting you. See?"

The man is a blustering blowhard who suffers from adult-ADD who has never been successful in the personal criteria I admire most about a candidate: successfully being a good husband, father, family man. You can preach to me all you want about morals and values and being strong, but how do you vote for a man with 3 failed marriages and a divided family?

Trust me - if you can't manage your own life, how do you expect to manage mine?

Posted by: ny patriot on June 22, 2007 at 11:27 AM | PERMALINK

I may be wrong, but I am always certain.

Posted by: Brojo on June 22, 2007 at 11:30 AM | PERMALINK

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent full of doubt." - Bertrand Russel

Posted by: Victoria on June 22, 2007 at 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

A man who stepped aside for Michael Bloomberg and graciously handed over the keys.

you mean he didn't call a state of emergency and assume mayor-for-life status? he's our jefferson!

btw, the murder rate in NYC peaked in '90, the first year dinkins was mayor. but dinkins is black, so the entire koch/reagan/bush1 crime wave must be laid at his and ray kelly's feet.


Posted by: benjoya on June 22, 2007 at 12:09 PM | PERMALINK

and hiring, promoting bernie kerik (as well as pushing him for head of DHS) was just the kind of personnel expertise rudy will bring to the presidency. maybe bernie can be SecDef!

oh, and blaming the troops for not securing explosives at al qaqaa -- another one of rudy's greatest moments.

and putting his emergency bunker in the WTC -- genius!

Posted by: benjoya on June 22, 2007 at 12:26 PM | PERMALINK

Fred Kaplan on Rudy Giuliani:

But nobody here has any confidence in Fred Kaplan, right?

Posted by: MatthewRmarler on June 22, 2007 at 1:48 PM | PERMALINK

I have confidence in Fred Kaplan remaining one of the fattest, dumbest, most destructive, yellowbacked, chickenshit, chickenhawk, prancing pigs on the planet. That I have complete confidence in.

Posted by: bmaz on June 22, 2007 at 2:14 PM | PERMALINK

I have confidence in Fred Kaplan remaining one of the fattest, dumbest, most destructive, yellowbacked, chickenshit, chickenhawk, prancing pigs on the planet. That I have complete confidence in.

Posted by: bmaz on June 22, 2007 at 2:14 PM | PERMALINK

I wonder whether this Kruger effect also explains why reporters and college educated people are statistically more Democrat/liberal. The proposed explanation is that they have more training about the complexities of the world and the human condition, so are less likely to fall for oversimplifications. (ie: they have received competence training in social realities) It's easy to say less government, lower taxes, strong defense, but the internal contradictions become apparent if you look closely and are willing to be quantitative. This is the opposite of the "welfare cadillac" line of thought. On a less friendly note, some small-business conservatives obviously have more competence training than their socially liberal peers in the fact that payrolls have to be met, and that local and state governments have to have balanced budgets.

Posted by: Bob G on June 22, 2007 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK

Thank you bmaz.

Posted by: Brojo on June 22, 2007 at 2:48 PM | PERMALINK

On a less friendly note, some small-business conservatives obviously have more competence training than their socially liberal peers in the fact that payrolls have to be met, and that local and state governments have to have balanced budgets.

You better believe it, bub. I'm trained for capitalism, trained! rested! ready! and I can make money like it is no one's business. I really can.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on June 22, 2007 at 2:57 PM | PERMALINK

trained! rested! ready!

Rudy will need a running mate. It is no time to be selfish when your country needs you!

Posted by: cld on June 22, 2007 at 3:16 PM | PERMALINK
A man who stepped aside for Michael Bloomberg and graciously handed over the keys….Norman Rogers at 9:31 AM
Giuliani tries to prolong his term.

New York City’s Mayor Rudolph Giuliani’s extra-legal bid to extend his term in office or override laws barring him from serving a third term are a particularly sinister expression of the ongoing attempts to exploit the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in order to curtail democratic rights.
Giuliani officially abandoned his drive for a third term on Wednesday, after failing to garner sufficient support in the New York state legislature. However, he reiterated his bid to extend his present term of office. Whatever the outcome of these maneuvers, the very fact that Giuliani has made such a blatantly undemocratic effort and been given substantial backing from sections of the media and the financial establishment has immense political significance.
While according to the city’s constitution, Giuliani must leave office at the end of this year, on the eve of the September 25 primary he floated his proposal to hold onto power….

You've been hittin' the sauce pretty heavily today.

Posted by: Mike on June 22, 2007 at 4:23 PM | PERMALINK

"I remember working on Wall Street in 1987, and I had to go to work with a security guard named Henley and I had to keep a .357 magnum in my waistband to fend off muggers. I was once knocked down by three toughs and the gun clattered into the gutter, falling down a drain. I had to use my briefcase to fend them off and I had to run into a peepshow to get help. THAT'S the New York that existed in the days of David Dinkins. Crack addicts everywhere, stealing whatever they could, even your shoes, in order to get money."

Norman, Norman, Norman. I came to NYC in 1979 and spent most of my time in neighborhoods a lot dicier than Wall Street -- though I spent time there, too -- unarmed and without bodyguards. I'm a short white guy with glasses. I took the subway everywhere I didn't walk, at all hours of the day and night. Nobody has fucked with me in 28 years, though I've provoked a few assholes in my time here. I don't know why people came after you. In 1987, it couldn't have been from reading your blog comments, so that eliminates the obvious explanation.

Posted by: CJColucci on June 22, 2007 at 4:26 PM | PERMALINK

Norman is right. Koch let this town go to shit.

Posted by: benjoya on June 22, 2007 at 4:51 PM | PERMALINK

Long before Dunning and Kruger:

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin (fifth born)

Posted by: Ralph on June 22, 2007 at 5:16 PM | PERMALINK

The technical term for this is misoverestimation.

Posted by: Nat on June 22, 2007 at 6:07 PM | PERMALINK

> He is, in fact, that most dangerous would-be world leader: a man who doesn't seem to know how much he doesn't know.

Even more dangerous than someone who doesn't know that he doesn't know ... someone who doesn't CARE that he doesn't know. In fact, explicitly doesn't WANT to know, even when it's spelled out for him, r e a l - s l o w - l i k e.

Not so curious after all :-)

(As in W o r s t - P r e s i d e n t - E v e r)

Posted by: curious on June 22, 2007 at 9:00 PM | PERMALINK

The current Repukeliscum Party is the Party of Total Morons. You get nowhere in the Repukeliscum Party unless you are ignorant in a really aggressive way.

Look at their attitudes about evolution.

Posted by: POed Lib on June 23, 2007 at 8:53 AM | PERMALINK

I look at what the guy reads, which reveals alot about a person. I stay away from political blogs those with agendas and read those things that could make a better world for future generations. The best books I have read in years is "The Pentagon's New Map" and "Blueprint For Action", which is American in scope and filled with information on the state of the world with statistics backing up all arguments. It is so simple, but if you have been brainwashed simple is the enemy. Rudy has read "The Pentagon's New Map", and has grasped our role in the world and why we have needed an addition to our military in the role of Civil Affairs in those nations that grow all the folks we are worried about. If you do nothing bad things will vector out of those areas on a regular basis. I for one am not willing to give that kind of future to future generations here. You can either firewall us off, don't think it will work or we can deal with the bad things and bad guys that infect failed nations. Where or where are the wise men of the 21st century, I see very few on this blog, I only see agendas. JFK would have been all for us being the peacekeeping force we are now striving to be. He would have wanted us to stop genocide, pandemics, mass rape as a tool of terror, womens rights, children being trained as deliverers of death etc. I don't want that kind of world and neither should you.

Posted by: Diane on June 23, 2007 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK

I look at what the guy reads, which reveals alot about a person. I stay away from political blogs those with agendas and read those things that could make a better world for future generations. The best books I have read in years is "The Pentagon's New Map" and "Blueprint For Action", which is American in scope and filled with information on the state of the world with statistics backing up all arguments. It is so simple, but if you have been brainwashed simple is the enemy. Rudy has read "The Pentagon's New Map", and has grasped our role in the world and why we have needed an addition to our military in the role of Civil Affairs in those nations that grow all the folks we are worried about. If you do nothing bad things will vector out of those areas on a regular basis. I for one am not willing to give that kind of future to future generations here. You can either firewall us off, don't think it will work or we can deal with the bad things and bad guys that infect failed nations. Where or where are the wise men of the 21st century, I see very few on this blog, I only see agendas. JFK would have been all for us being the peacekeeping force we are now striving to be. He would have wanted us to stop genocide, pandemics, mass rape as a tool of terror, womens rights, children being trained as deliverers of death etc. I don't want that kind of world and neither should you.

Posted by: Diane on June 23, 2007 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK
....Rudy has read "The Pentagon's New Map", and has grasped our role in the world .... Diane at 2:55 PM
Rudy's time would be better spent trying to gain an elemental understanding of Iraq, terrorism and the sources of anger in the Middle East because his statements on these major policy concerns are childish in the extreme.

In case you didn't know it, Rudy also has a agenda: wealth and power .... for Rudy.

Someone with sound moral judgment is required. Giuliani's cruel treatment of his second wife, their family, and his support for Kerik shows he is lacking in this regard as well.
Here's another tidbit: Your hero, Rudy Giuliani employs molester priest
... his childhood friend Monsignor Alan Placa as a consultant at Giuliani Partners despite a 2003 Suffolk County, N.Y., grand jury report that accuses Placa of sexually abusing children, as well as helping cover up the sexual abuse of children by other priests. Placa, who was part of a three-person team that handled allegations of abuse by clergy for the Diocese of Rockville Centre, is referred to as Priest F in the grand jury report. The report summarizes the testimony of multiple alleged victims of Priest F, and then notes, "Ironically, Priest F would later become instrumental in the development of Diocesan policy in response to allegations of sexual abuse of children by priests."

People are always claiming the mantle of JFK. What his views would have been are unknowable. JFK was a pragmatist but he was always behind the curve during the civil rights movement of the early 60's. There is certainly no evidence that he would endorse an authoritarian thug such as Giuliani.

Posted by: Mike on June 23, 2007 at 5:01 PM | PERMALINK


"Morons don't know they are morons , because they are morons".
Shrub has social interaction aphasia. He is incapable of regonizing nuance or irony or any shading. This explains his Manichaen world view. Black/White. Right/Wrong.

Posted by: P.C.Chapman on June 24, 2007 at 3:56 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

Read Jonathan Rowe remembrance and articles
Email Newsletter icon, E-mail Newsletter icon, Email List icon, E-mail List icon Sign up for Free News & Updates

Advertise in WM



buy from Amazon and
support the Monthly