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Tilting at Windmills

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July 10, 2007
By: Kevin Drum

SiCKO....As threatened, I saw SiCKO this afternoon. Great film. Everybody is right: it's Michael Moore's best picture yet, a genuinely moving and effective piece of policy evangelism. The Cuba stuff at the end was hardly necessary since he'd already rammed his point home by then, and the film probably would have been better without it on both artistic and political grounds. Still, top marks. Go see it.

Interesting side note: I have a review of Jon Cohn's book Sick in the Columbia Journalism Review this month (not online, sorry), and the nickel version is: great book, but too bad somebody can't give Cohn a grant to head over to Europe and report on their healthcare system the same way he's reported on ours. Moore's movie really drives this point home, because its great strength comes from comparing our healthcare system directly to European and Canadian healthcare systems, which most Americans have been scared into believing are basically third-world hellholes. Needless to say, the truth is just the opposite. It would be nice to have a book version of that story in addition to the movie/polemic version.

Kevin Drum 8:04 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (146)

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Comments

I'm not sure you are right about the Cuba stuff Kevin. It gives conservatives, most of whom comment based on their psychic observational skills, something to whine about and generate publicity for the film.

Posted by: noel on July 10, 2007 at 8:13 PM | PERMALINK

Hey Kevin, Now that you have finally seen the movie on 7/10 will you let us know "where Moore plays a little fast and loose" as you reported on 6/22. And what are the lot of little things that Sicko got wrong?

Posted by: Marc on July 10, 2007 at 8:14 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin and all--

I'm not convinced that citing Canada as a model is in our best interest--the fact is, they do have some problems with waiting times and doctor retention(see http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/82-575-XIE/2003001/report.htm. They are working to fix this problem and they spend a heck of a lot less money than us, but it makes for an easy target.

I think we need to talk about creating a uniquely US universal health care system that draws from the best elements of other systems and delivers them at a lower cost.

Posted by: none on July 10, 2007 at 8:17 PM | PERMALINK

If you didn't catch Moore slamming Wolf Blitzer, CNN, and their medical "star," the idiot Sanjay Gupta, see it on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpKoN40K7mA
.

The confrontation is bound to become as much of a classic as Stephen Colbert's appearance at the White House Correspondents Dinner: Briefly, Gupta had a disingenuous piece accusing Moore of "fudging the facts," and Moore struck back, real hard (even if Gupta was right, he was nitpicking minutia in an obvious attempt to follow the MSM script that Moore is a serial fudger).

Moore took it up a notch, and has responded to Gupta's accusations point-by-point (
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/news/article_10017.php
) and he will be on Larry King Live at 9:00 tonight, with Gupta.

Whatever you think of Moore, I'd love to see other liberals take on the media in the same aggressive way.

___________________________

Posted by: Aris on July 10, 2007 at 8:24 PM | PERMALINK

If you didn't catch Moore slamming Wolf Blitzer, CNN, and their medical "star," the idiot Sanjay Gupta, see it on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpKoN40K7mA.

The confrontation is bound to become as much of a classic as Stephen Colbert's appearance at the White House Correspondents Dinner: Briefly, Gupta had a disingenuous piece accusing Moore of "fudging the facts," and Moore struck back, real hard (even if Gupta was right, he was nitpicking minutia in an obvious attempt to follow the MSM script that Moore is a serial fudger).

Moore took it up a notch, and has responded to Gupta's accusations point-by-point (http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/news/article_10017.php) and he will be on Larry King Live at 9:00 tonight, with Gupta.

Whatever you think of Moore, I'd love to see other liberals take on the media in the same aggressive way.

Posted by: Aris on July 10, 2007 at 8:27 PM | PERMALINK

Doctor retention in Canada is poor, because they come HERE to game our rigged system to make more money (at the expense of patients' well being).

If we had NHS in America - Canada might not lose so many doctors. Where would they go? It's not the GOOD ones that leave the Canadian system. Just the greedy ones.

Posted by: osama_been_forgotten on July 10, 2007 at 8:29 PM | PERMALINK

Marc: I didn't say that. Jon Cohn said it. You can click the link in that post to read Cohn's criticisms.

(Actually, in a previous post, I had predicted that Moore would stick to the facts better in SiCKO than in some of his other films. He did.)

None: Every healthcare system has problems. There's just no way around that. In general, though, I agree that Canada and Britain really aren't the best overseas examples to use. There are plenty of better healthcare systems around, including those of France (which Moore used in the movie), Germany, Sweden, Japan, Australia, the Netherlands, and others.

Posted by: Kevin Drum on July 10, 2007 at 8:30 PM | PERMALINK

The Cuba stuff was one of the smartest things I've seen, and what made the film exceptional: there was no stronger way to make a point, and stir up controversy and debate at the same time, which is what Moore was trying to do. Had he just wanted to "ram his point," he could have recited statistics for 90 minutes. That "smart" liberals fail to understand something so obvious as what Moore did in this film is one of the reasons the left is such a milquetoast participant in the propaganda wars. But we sure do look smart and moderate -- "serious" in punditspeak -- by criticizing our own side.

We're fair! Sure, our politicians and ideas get hammered by the punditry (and ourselves), we don't stand up for them and even join in, but we're fair! We're moderate! We're balanced! We're objective! We're smart! We can criticize! Just like Kevin! And then we lose.

Posted by: Martin Gale on July 10, 2007 at 8:31 PM | PERMALINK

we already have a damned good model for the delivery of health care: the VA hospitals. for the bigger picture we could start with medicare for everybody and work out the details from there rather than trying to start from a blank sheet of paper and talk about it for the next 100 years. one thing for sure, the current HMO/employer system isn't the solution and the insurance companies and big pharma aren't going to be the ones to propose it.

Posted by: supersaurus on July 10, 2007 at 8:32 PM | PERMALINK

What is the real solution, if Michael Moore?s government sponsored universal health care is not the answer?

The crux of the "SICKO" documentary is the disconnect between our expectations and the reality of health care. We are expecting compassionate care from another human being, and instead we get a faceless corporation. The person behind the desk or window is an agent of a health care corporation, which is not a human being, whose primary goal is to increase corporate profit.

This is America, and corporate profit is good, the profit motive forming the basis America?s greatness. The basic problem is that a corporation is not a human being. Therein lies the fallacy of replacing a corporation with a government agency, neither of which is a human being, when what we really want is a human being to deliver compassionate health care, and assist in serious health care decisions.

Review of "SICKO", by Jeffrey Dach MD

Jeffrey Dach MD

Posted by: Jeffrey Dach on July 10, 2007 at 8:42 PM | PERMALINK

I loved the movie also, which I saw on Sunday. (There were a lot of people there for a Sunday afternoon matinee). I disagree about the Cuba part. I thought it really drove home how illogical and immoral our health care system is - when the 9/11 rescuer could get her prescription for about $0.05 that costs her $120 a pop on her $1000 SS disability.

Posted by: Unstable Isotope on July 10, 2007 at 8:48 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin is an expert on health care issues. Unless regular people buy in to change what you, Kevin or me think is of little importance. Here is a review from a regular guy

Posted by: corpus juris on July 10, 2007 at 8:48 PM | PERMALINK

The Cuba part is great! If you want somebody to react, kick 'em in the balls. Works every time, and Moore understands this.

Posted by: alex on July 10, 2007 at 9:23 PM | PERMALINK

If you're worried that he's using UK or Canada or even Cuba as an example, just because they have problems, you don't get it.

The point is that, though flawed, most people in those countries, whom we believe we are better than, are better off in that regard.

Posted by: Jon on July 10, 2007 at 9:26 PM | PERMALINK

What I thought was funny is that Cuba's health care system is 39th in the world and we are 37th. Our health care costs are about $7200 per person per year and they pay $251 per year. What are we getting for our $7000?

Posted by: corpus juris on July 10, 2007 at 9:27 PM | PERMALINK

My problem with the movie was a bit more broad. Moore wasn't just criticizing the American health system, he was criticizing the American idea than government help is distinctly un-American.

That's a good question to ask, and I'm glad he asks it. But does he really have to paint France as some type of perfect paradise?

There's a lot of talk about how many things the French government does for its citizens, but no mention whatsoever of the riots which consumed Paris not too long ago. No mention of the thousands of people who died in the 2003 heat wave either.

In fact, he goes on and on about the rights French workers have, but there's not a single mention at all of the famously pesky French work permit--even just to say, "Contrary to popular belief, it's easy to get a work permit in France."

I'm not saying these facts somehow refute his claim. All I'm saying is I like a little subtly and nuance in my arguments, but Michael Moore and George W. Bush refuse to give it to me.

Posted by: Alex Parker on July 10, 2007 at 9:58 PM | PERMALINK

"Did you ever have the feeling you've been cheated?"

The Cuba stuff was great and moving but also part of the main benefit of the film - that we Americans have been lied to for decades about other countries and about health care. Lied to over and over again by politicians and media. Forced ignorance is one of the methods used to keep us in the dark. Most people don't travel outside of the country and if they do go to France, for example, how often do they end up at someone's house or apartment. And of course, you can't even go to Cuba.

The most powerful aspect of the film, I thought, was simply giving another perspective to one that our corporate government gives us. Seeing Cuba - that was really interesting, wasn't it?

Posted by: Lee Stranahan on July 10, 2007 at 10:00 PM | PERMALINK

Corpus,

I believe the HMO CEO's are getting their fourth home and a new Benz with your $7000. We're just getting the corporate red tape run around when we're sick.

Posted by: Adventuregeek on July 10, 2007 at 10:00 PM | PERMALINK

Alex, Maybe I missed it, but I don't think he paints France as perfect. The French health care system is just better than America's. And it is.

As to the American ideal that government help is un-American, well, we wouldn't be getting a government handout. We would be paying for it with our taxes.

As to the claim that we don't want to pay more in taxes, I guarantee you I will trade higher taxes for my premiums, co-pays and all the rest, and for knowing that I won't be at the mercy of some insurance weenie whose only purpose in life is to deny me what I have paid for.

Posted by: corpus juris on July 10, 2007 at 10:11 PM | PERMALINK

In any case, I really feel the need to point out here; Michael Moore is fat.

Posted by: bungholio on July 10, 2007 at 10:23 PM | PERMALINK

This is America, and corporate profit is good, the profit motive forming the basis America's greatness.

I�ve seen this talking point recently. It is stupid. The basis of America's greatness is several hundred years of free stuff. Timber, oil, gold, and a host of other natural resources there for the taking. Hell, even today the Federal Government subsidizes resource extraction both explicitly in the form of tax preferences and implicitly by using the US Army as a way to bludgeon those who have the bad taste to live on top of our resources in their country. The basic model in the United States has been the privatization of profit and the socialization of costs.

Want a relevant example? Health insurance skims the healthy, and therefore profitable, leaving the rest to pay, be left untreated, or get the government to pay. All of which are simply socialized costs.

Posted by: noel on July 10, 2007 at 10:23 PM | PERMALINK

I'm sorry some people here have had an insurer deny their claims. In the last 5 years, I've had 3 debridements, 2 muscle flaps, months of intravenous antibiotics. I've had hospital stays, home health care, office visits, MRIs, X-Rays and finally an amputation when all of the above couldn't rid me of staph and MRSA. I found the doctors, nurses, home health professionals, rehab folks and all the rest, including thepeople working for the insurance companies to be compassionate, caring people. Almost all the rehab and home health people work for big corporations and yet they cared about their work and their patients.

There's little financial doubt the US needs to fix health care insurance and delivery. The cost growth of Medicare will consume all revenue at current tax rates, so whether you think the French are best or the British or the Canadians, thee fix needs to start now or the rationing is going to be very disruptive to the citizenry.

Posted by: TJM on July 10, 2007 at 10:32 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin Drum: (Actually, in a previous post, I had predicted that Moore would stick to the facts better in SiCKO than in some of his other films. He did.)

You did "predict" that. You then received many requests from readers not to make RNC message-supporting sweeping statements like that unless you could cite specific examples, any old specific examples at all, of factual errors in Moore's previous films. You couldn't.

And it seems that almost every time you're called on that sort of thing, you come back in a later thread to repeat your original unsubstantiated right-wing talking point, again without backup and often in a rather forced way that leads one to believe you just had to get it in again somewhere. I used to think it was pretty laggardly of you not to read the comments of your own blog--your only employment, if I'm not mistaken. Now I hope that's what's happening, because the other possibility--that you're prone to making Bushlike backlashes at critics--is way worse. And given how much hostility you frequently show to reader questioning, particularly when virtually everyone in a thread is criticizing the same point of yours, I really do suspect you have an adolescent petulance about having any of your moderately moderate balanced balance challenged.

Posted by: shortstop on July 10, 2007 at 10:47 PM | PERMALINK

Do any of the people criticizing Micheal Moore live without what they think is good health insurance? I really don't think so. Anybody who has had coverage delayed or denied and missed work because they were still sick or injured knows that SICKO is exactly on the right track.

Oh, and you rich folk shouldn't go thinking that you are ok because you have money. My sister with two houses and five cars was denied ANY health insurance due to a congenital condition that she didn't discover unitl her 30's.

Never mind that she had been covered on the Kaiser plan from the time she was 10 until her 40's; when she came off an employer provided group plan Kaiser raised her premiums to 20 times what her employer was paying for her insurance coverage due to a "pre-existing condition."

You only think you have health insurance. They have the right to watch you die and deny you care for the simplest conditions.

Posted by: J. Poteet. on July 10, 2007 at 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

I had a sad meeting with my insurance provider last month. Starting next month my health care costs are going up 24%. I provide a health saving plan. You know high deductible insurance linked to special tax free bank accounts. I have done about all I can do to keep my insurance costs down. Since I am the employer in a small business that kind of increase hurts. Another such increase and I will have to give it up all together. That will make the families who work for me very, very sad. I don't know why other small businessmen and women aren't leading the charge to tar and feather their insurance providers.

Posted by: corpus juris on July 10, 2007 at 10:53 PM | PERMALINK

Moore knows something that Karl Rove knows and the Democratic party seems incapable of understanding: the way to get the media to cover you is to create a stir.

Impeachment, anyone?

Posted by: Archie on July 10, 2007 at 11:00 PM | PERMALINK

Right you are Shortstop. Kevin was also a war supporter, and slow to see the damage and malfeasance in the administration and the elections which brought us the national crisis--and we are in crisis. If anything, Moore's track record in all of his movies and public statements are far better than the "moderate" democrats who have bent us all over this barrel.

We need real medical reform. The first candidate to offer decent universal health care, not half-measures like Edwards or Obama, will win this thing. One more reason for Gore to enter the race I think.

Posted by: Sparko on July 10, 2007 at 11:07 PM | PERMALINK

This look at U.S. health care by the numbers includes comparisons of the American health care system relative to other countries and between the states, plus data on the uninsured, rising health care costs, the woes of Medicare and Medicaid and more.

For all the details, see:
"SiCKO Required Reading: U.S. Health Care by the Numbers."

Posted by: Angry on July 10, 2007 at 11:09 PM | PERMALINK

noel: The basis of America's greatness is several hundred years of free stuff. Timber, oil, gold, and a host of other natural resources there for the taking.

There's a bit more to it than that. Russia also has a wealth of natural resources, but I wouldn't want to trade our standard of living for theirs.

Not that the secret to US success is entirely private profit seeking either. For example, we were a pioneer in "socialized education".

Posted by: alex on July 10, 2007 at 11:11 PM | PERMALINK

The key to America's greatness is innovation driven by compassion. When greed or extortion drives the market, the country dies. Health care in America is an extortionist's dream. "You pay, play by our rules, or die."
The fact that people are flying to the Third World for treatment in ever increasing numbers tells you everything you need to know about America right now.

We need to reread the Preamble to the Constitution as a nation, with translations available for those immigrants who cannot understand the language (I mean Republicans who do not understand compassion and empathy). Promote the general welfare. Domestic tranquility for ourselves and our posterity. That kind of thing.

Posted by: Sparko on July 10, 2007 at 11:20 PM | PERMALINK

....Anybody who has had coverage delayed or denied and missed work because they were still sick or injured knows that SICKO is exactly on the right track....
Posted by: J. Poteet. on July 10, 2007 at 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

How about anyone who had a minor condition (like TMJ, or early spondelothesis) who was denied coverage for treatment that could prevent the condition from progressing until they were crippled?

I have pretty damn good coverage, and have had for most of my career. Yet, when I went in for minor lower back pain, I was told that an MRI would not be covered unless my back pain was bad enough that I had functional impairment (inability to walk, sleep, or loss of bowel or bladder function). So the only covered treatment was "take some ibuprofen". 5 years later, I've got serious cartilage loss, and probably crippling pain for the rest of my life - and after another 5 years, I'll likely have to get surgery to fuse my L4 and L5 vertibrae.

Whereas, had my insurance (BCBS) covered an MRI, and a cortisone injection, or a simple procedure to trim the disk bulge, the more serious outcome could have been prevented.

What they're really hoping, is that I get so sick, I have to stop working, and drop out of the health insurance system altogether. COBRA? Don't make me laugh. It's $1400 a month.

A younger co-worker in Canada had his first back injury last month. He had his surgery to fix a bulging disk last week, and he's already back at work. When he's my age, he will be able to be physically active, without having to sit on an ice pack for 4 hours afterwards.

THAT is the difference between the US system and Canada.

Posted by: bungholio on July 10, 2007 at 11:21 PM | PERMALINK

Exactly shortstop. It's why I generally don't hang around here any more.

His moderately moderate support for this war is another example.

It's worth popping in to read the comments still, because there are always some good opinions and facts but I simply scroll through Mr Drum's stuff all the time now.

Posted by: floopmeister on July 10, 2007 at 11:27 PM | PERMALINK

Do any of the people criticizing Micheal Moore live without what they think is good health insurance? I really don't think so....

Posted by: J. Poteet. on July 10, 2007 at 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

Sadly, J. Poteet, I think a lot of the people who criticize Moore and others trying to reform health care do not have insurance or good insurance. They just have knee jerk reactions to liberals. They must have been huffing leaded gasoline back in the 70's. To quote Jerri Blank on the virtues of glint/glimmer/the devil's hare lip, "Good times!"

Posted by: jussumbody on July 10, 2007 at 11:28 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin might be a mediocre analyst at times, but there are few better facilitators of political discussion on the Web these days.

Posted by: dr sardonicus on July 10, 2007 at 11:57 PM | PERMALINK

It's about 9pm here in Los Angeles. I live 15 minutes from Hollywood, where the CNN building is.

I'm not a 'protest guy'. I'm middle aged, have kids and I work in the entertainment industry. It's not that I don't do anything. I vote, I phone my congressman, I blog.

But I'm reaching my Howard Beal breaking point and I bet a lot of you feel the same way.

We don't need a lot of people. If about 10 other people respond in comments and want to head down to CNN in Hollywood, that's probably enough to make the news.

CNN needs to issue a big apology, not just milk the issue for ratings. And like Mike, I want them to apologize for getting us into this lousy stinking war, too.

Nothing violent, nothing crazy, nothing to get anyone arrested. I don't have a real plan here but it's time to start doing something - anything.

If not tonight, first thing tomorrow morning. If nothing happens here, I'm up for a spontaneous protest anytime.

It's a cool windy Tuesday night. Anyone in?

Posted by: Lee Stranahan on July 11, 2007 at 12:22 AM | PERMALINK

Hey alex? Do you think that the hundreds of years of slavery added anything to the bottom line? You know, costs borne by individuals who weren't fairly compensated?

What about the benefits of genocidal contact with the natives? Do you think the expansion of the United States might have had something to do with the relative ease of overpowering the natives? And with that expansion, ever more "free" resources?

What about the free ride that the relative isolation from the intrigues of Europe provided?

Capitalism may have its benefits, but externalizing the costs and internalizing the profits beats a superior product every time.

Posted by: noel on July 11, 2007 at 12:33 AM | PERMALINK

From an artistic/documentary perspective, Moore could have ended before the Cuban segment: it's more of an afterword, because it taps into older themes -- 9/11, Guantanamo -- that don't quite dovetail.

But it satisfies one purpose: many, many Americans simply don't know what Cuba looks like. My wife admitted that she thought everyone lived in shacks and pissed in the gutters. That's what a 45-year embargo does.

Posted by: ahem on July 11, 2007 at 12:38 AM | PERMALINK

Posted this on Carpetbagger Report today. Sorry it's not edited:

After Fahrenheit 9/11 came out there was a lot of to-do about it not being accurate, and I thought that was a lot of hype and spin, overblown, and not adequately challenged. I read a big list online of some 70-something (if I’m remembering correctly) supposed fabrications and inaccuracies in the film, but when I read them, I thought a lot of them were unfair, the kind of right-wing points we debunk on this blog every day. I don’t think a good enough effort was made to challenge them. At the time, I was going to write a blog post to counter each (or most) of those points, but I never got around to it because I was too busy. The film may have had some inaccuracies and a little unfair editing of clips, but a lot of it was not that egregious or actually had to be characterized as dishonest- you had to predisposed to look at it a certain way to say Moore was distorting.

Like in Fahrenheit 9/11, Moore might have said “$1,000,000″ as some figure. And then the right-wing fact checked it and found out a more accuarate number was $900,000. And this was held up as a huge lie and an example that the whole piece and all its opinion and implicit argument could not be believed and had no merit. But how significant was the $100,000 error in the context of that much money- only getting it wrong by that much. So pointing out the “mistake” was more dishonest, as far as being a distortion, than accidentally doing the math wrong on the figure and not double checking it adequately.

Same thing here- even if Moore was wrong, was being off by that much really a point worth raising? Or just a flailing attempt to try to create a perception of a smog of untrustworthiness hanging about Moore?

Posted by: Swan on July 11, 2007 at 12:39 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin might be a mediocre analyst at times, but there are few better facilitators of political discussion on the Web these days.

I disagree with Kevin sometimes, but Kevin is awesome.

Posted by: Swan on July 11, 2007 at 12:41 AM | PERMALINK

I think Cuba is an important part of the film, Even if Michael Moore is off by a few $$$ it shows a very poor country is #39 and the worlds richest country is # 37. That is a fact.
Our health care system is based on greed, the priority is profit, the more the better. As long as the political credo is greed, greed and more greed nothing will change.

Michael Moore is a great pamphletier, just what we need.

Posted by: Lysistrata on July 11, 2007 at 12:59 AM | PERMALINK

Visit to Cuba was an absolute necessity. I generally knew Cuba was better than what we are led to believe, but it was interesting to see the hospital in Havana. It was grand and drove home the point that even a poor country like Cuba can afford a majestic health care system because health care is life. You don't have good health care, you don't have a good life.

What the movie could have done without is the part where Moore spends 5 minutes talking about the $12000 he donated to his hater (web site). An anonymous donation made to help a sick person should have been left at that -- an anonymous donation. No need to rub it in, even if the protaganist was full of rightwing bile and hatred.

The movie itself was perfect. He completely and methodically destroyed the right wing talking points. The trip to Cuba was perfect. What better way to point out that we are a nation so incapable of even taking care of our 9/11 heroes? 9/11 was politicized but the firemen and volunteers of 9/11 should, at a minimum, not have to worry about their health care and their job security. Michael Moore simply pointed out the irony and with great skill.

Posted by: rational on July 11, 2007 at 1:04 AM | PERMALINK

Dramatically, emotionally, etc. the Cuba section is what gives the movie its ultimate wallop. I NEVER cry at movies and it even got me. The movie would be SO much less powerful without it.

Kevin definitely should not become a movie or drama critic!

Posted by: Jim in Chicago on July 11, 2007 at 1:16 AM | PERMALINK

Terry Gross had Jonathan Oberlander, a politicl scientist with an expertise in health-care politics and policy, on her program Fresh Air. Anyone interested in the relative merits of other health care systems that Kevin pines for, should take a listen here.

Also, some good discussion of Sicko.

Posted by: DevilDog on July 11, 2007 at 2:05 AM | PERMALINK

"It was grand and drove home the point that even a poor country like Cuba can afford a majestic health care system because health care is life. You don't have good health care, you don't have a good life."

Jesus people. Castro lets you film at the party hosptial and you think it is the general hospital?

Posted by: Sebastian Holsclaw on July 11, 2007 at 2:24 AM | PERMALINK

Also, the trip to Cuba got a bunch of 911 heroes medical care. Does anyone really have a problem with that? It is not as though they could get it in the U.s. -- or (as non-Canadians) in Canada.

Posted by: Gar Lipow on July 11, 2007 at 2:58 AM | PERMALINK

It would be nice to have a book version of that story [how Europe compares to US] in addition to the movie/polemic version.

Not sure if you've linked this previously, but I found Ezra's recent Am Prospect piece to be quite useful on this front.

Posted by: Bill on July 11, 2007 at 3:05 AM | PERMALINK

Alex: But does he really have to paint France as some type of perfect paradise?

Given that conservatives routinely vilify France and use it as synonym for cowardice, yes, he did.

There's a lot of talk about how many things the French government does for its citizens, but no mention whatsoever of the riots which consumed Paris not too long ago.

Moore was making a documentary on health care, not a documentary on the cultural and economic alienation of its Muslim citizens and residents. Or do you also complain that any positive examination of George Bush Sr.'s administration is biased and incomplete if it does not also include a long look at the LA riots?

No mention of the thousands of people who died in the 2003 heat wave either.

Because exceptions don't prove or disprove rules. The heat wave was a freak natural disaster (possibly the worst heat wave in the last thousand years) that killed 35,000 across Europe. It's not going to be especially helpful in forming a balanced picture of the average quality of health care a French citizen normally receives.

Well, there is one important exception: absolutely every French victim of a natural disaster is guaranteed to receive free medical attention. The same can't be said of American victims of natural disasters, whether its hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, snow storms, heat waves... or even terrorist attacks.

Note that the French hospitals set up cool rooms/tents during the heat wave to help provide relief to the suffering. The French government aso took aggressive steps to make sure that all French retirement homes had air conditioning units, as well as help individual elderly citizens purchase them as well.

I'm not saying these facts somehow refute his claim. All I'm saying is I like a little subtly and nuance in my arguments, but Michael Moore and George W. Bush refuse to give it to me.

Nice, marginalize and insult Moore by comparing him to Bush. Moore isn't refusing to give you more information, there are simply limits to the amount of information you can cram into a documentary and keep it interesting and short enough to digest.

Bush on the other hand is running the most closed and secretive administration in generations. They even commonly treat information that is in the public domain as though it were secret, just make access to it more difficult for the press and average citizens. They're also pathological liars.

Forrest for the trees, Alex.

Posted by: Augustus on July 11, 2007 at 3:13 AM | PERMALINK

As a Canadian, my frame of reference for evaluating the medical/surgical care system we have now is not the US system or indeed that in any other country. Rather, I compare it to what existed BEFORE single payer appeared. The present system is in my view vastly superior to the entirely private system as it existed for many decades, or the blended public/private system which initially replaced it. Single payer has proven its superiority. It does away with dozens of private insurance bureaucracies, eliminates the near-feudal hold employers who provided private insurance once had on their employees, it rations on a rational basis (which is not always immediately obvious to patients), and it does something else extremely important. It obviates the need for individuals to save for the expenses of catastrophic illness. It means consumers such as myself may well pay C$1200 a year for mandatory coverage but it also means that those with low or no incomes pay nothing at all. In either case, savings are not required against future illness. In no sense then is care provided "free"; it is simply paid for in a systematic and generally fair fashion.

Does it mean general income taxation and sales taxation rates are higher than in other countries. Possibly; its not clearcut. But I receive value for money in return (as above). Can the system be improved? Of course, the handling of pharmaceutical expenses to individuals is somewhat hit and miss. Dental care is not as a rule covered though some serious dental surgeries carried out in hospitals are. Some innoculations are also not covered in some provinces. But these instances aside, the general approach of single payer has been a wonderful success by any metric chosen. If Americans believe that medical care in Canada is a 'third-world hellhole', they are beyond stupid. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Posted by: Craig McKie on July 11, 2007 at 3:27 AM | PERMALINK

Sebastian Holsclaw: "Castro lets you film at the party hosptial and you think it is the general hospital?"

How do you know that it was a "party" facility? Or are you just making an assumption?

Posted by: Donald from Hawaii on July 11, 2007 at 3:50 AM | PERMALINK

I, too, saw the movie, on June 29. Only one theater showed it in Tucson, and I was surprised that more did not show it. I went to a 9:30 PM showing. The theater wasn't packed to the gills but it was quite full. Afterwards, people clapped for several minutes, which rarely happens at a movie.

Michael Moore is bombastic and a polemicist. But that may be the best way to make his points in the current climate. I found some of the stories of people being denied health care simply heartbreaking, such as the lady whose daughter died before she could make it to a Kaiser hospital, and she was an employee of Kaiser!

Sebastian: you repeated a meme I've seen a lot during the last few weeks from rightwing critics of SiCKO. Do you have any hard evidence that the hospital Moore showed is a Potemkin hospital? Said evidence would have to come from a number of Cubans CURRENTLY living in Cuba. No disaffected expats, please.

Anyone who hasn't seen the movie, go see it. It's worth it!

Posted by: Wolfdaughter on July 11, 2007 at 4:00 AM | PERMALINK

Two points: Those who think the Cuban part of the movie was compelling are right. Every single person I have talked to about the movie, especially the young, focus on that part in particular. The use of 9/11 victims who cannot get adequate health care in this country was brilliant, illustrating in human terms what the numbers cannot capture.

One of the major obstacles we face in this country compared to those Moore examined is the percentage of our budget spent on defense and national security. Can we afford both?

Posted by: steve miller on July 11, 2007 at 8:32 AM | PERMALINK

What the movie could have done without is the part where Moore spends 5 minutes talking about the $12000 he donated to his hater (web site). An anonymous donation made to help a sick person should have been left at that -- an anonymous donation. No need to rub it in, even if the protaganist was full of rightwing bile and hatred.

I think if a lot of people had done it, maybe even a lot of public figures, you would be right, however in this case maybe Michael Moore's setting some kind of an example (someone's got to do it) and maybe providing defense for himself (and by extension, the left) by showing himself doing this when the right says all kinds of nasty stuff about him. For more sophisticated people, yeah, it might seem unnecessary or trivial to counter that with showing them you can do a good deed- it can always be for show. But for people like the right wingers, it can be kind of de rigeur (you show them me not celebrating the fourth of July, and they don't think of the one time they didn't celebrate it, or all the reasons a person might not celebrate it some year- instead, it's the easiest thing in the world to get them to believe I'm not patriotic, even though it's untrue, by suggest to them that that's why I'm not celebrating- so all kinds of politicians do all sorts of things de rigeur, go to church and stuff (except for Bush) de rigeur, and all the snotty, near-sighted left-wingers put stuff like that down, w/o understanding...), and you have to distance yourself from how you see things- other people don't always see things the same way you do. By doing this, it stops all the right wingers who would say, "Michael Moore is such a this-and-that, he'd never do a good, Christlike deed like me."

Posted by: Swan on July 11, 2007 at 8:53 AM | PERMALINK

Oh, weepy weepy boo hoo.

America is full of sick people. Were that not the case, would anyone care? Of course not.

The fact of the matter is, the insurance industry is the reason why American health care is the finest in the world. People flock to this country for health care. They do not flock to Cuba for anything other than '57 Fords and cigars, and even then, neither one of them really does the trick.

Do you know what I am proudest of? My ability to be immune to sentimentalism and pathos. I watch pictures and stories about sad, sad little people and their inability to cope and their little diseases and their unmet needs and I find myself completely indifferent to their suffering. Does that make me a bad person--no! It makes me a strong person. Strength in the face of adversity is what gets things done--crying and bitching and moaning accomplishes nothing. Why can't people learn that simple lesson? Make lemonade whenever someone hurls lemons at you.

I am not moved to tears at their plight--I am moved to give them encouragement and advice. Out of work? Get a job? Don't have health care? Quit the job that doesn't give you health care and get one that does. Are you sick? Get better fast. Are you suffering from a debilitating illness that causes you to lose everything? Well, you cannot take it with you, so either pass on to the next life or come back stronger and motivated and get back what you lost through hard work and motivation.

Anyone can sit on their dead ass and cry like a baby--few can get up and make things happen for themselves. Don't wait for the government to solve your problems. Solve your own damned problems and to hell with the government.

To hell with it.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 8:57 AM | PERMALINK

Michael Moore is bombastic and a polemicist.

I think people who say stuff like this just feel bad they left him hanging high and dry after Fahrenheit 9/11, so they're trying to think up legitimate reasons why they did it. Instead, why not shift gears completely so we can end these atrocities the right-wing is committing against the nation and the world?

Posted by: Swan on July 11, 2007 at 9:02 AM | PERMALINK

Instead, why not shift gears completely so we can end these atrocities the right-wing is committing against the nation and the world?

Making the world safe from terrorism and bringing Democracy to Afghans and Iraqis is an atrocity?

Inject a little less dope into your limp little arms, liberal. It might clear up your thinking, sir.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 9:06 AM | PERMALINK

To Shortstop: Bravo, Bravo

To Norman: Screw you and now your protector will probably delete my post once again - Oooooh, a negative comment about the unprotected poor little Normie, must delete.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on July 11, 2007 at 9:16 AM | PERMALINK

Orwell--did the post office lose your latest copy of National Review? Because frankly, I find the PO pretty darned good. For 41 cents, I can get a letter delivered anywhere in the country within about 4 days. I think in 53 years I've had a total of 3 letters go missing--not a bad track record considering the hundreds, nay thousands of letters, post cards, and packages I've entrusted to them.

And billing? In the first place, universal health care as envisioned by most proponents would not entail billing--single payer, remember? But even if there was some billing component, it could not possibly be worse than what I've dealt with from the local hospital, which has one part-time billing person who may get a bill sent to you sometime within 18 months from a procedure, usually with a notice that it's about to be turned over to a collection agency because the insurer refused to pay it (because the hospital used the wrong code). And believe me, boyo, no IRS agent comes close to the aggressive tactics of a private collection agency.

As to spending, VA and Medicare in this country and Canadian, German, French, etc. systems pretty much show spending is reduced, not increased, by universal health care, and outcomes are no worse and generally better than U.S.

So what sized hat are you talking through, anyway?

Posted by: Dano on July 11, 2007 at 9:26 AM | PERMALINK

And believe me, boyo, no IRS agent comes close to the aggressive tactics of a private collection agency.

You are a bald-faced liar, sir. I have had IRS agents attack me in my home and use chainsaws to gain entrance to my premises. I have seen my personal property carted away and my accountants put through vigorous questioning about their work on my behalf. I have seen the best business minds of my generation shipped off to minimum security prisons for mere mistakes.

Is that what we want in this country? IRS agents using chainsaws to come through walls to discover hidden passages in a man's home? A man's home is his castle.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 9:33 AM | PERMALINK

A national health care system is absolutely in the best interest of every American. George Bush is betraying Americans by not supporting it, the way Hitler betrayed the average German by using totalitarian government to crush their autonomy and ability to represent themselves, and by taking away their ability to belong to unions.

George Bush is like Hitler.

Posted by: Swan on July 11, 2007 at 9:36 AM | PERMALINK

If you really care about the health care system in this country you will not push for government run hospitals. A hospital with the spending of a public school, the billing attitude of the IRS and the delivery system of the post office. Yeah, that will solve a whole lot of problems.

If you really care about national security in this country you will not push for a government run military.

A military with the spending of a public school, the billing attitude of the IRS and the delivery system of the post office. Yeah, that will solve a whole lot of problems.

Let's privatize defense instead, and give everyone a tax voucher so they can use it to hire a mercenary to protect them. Enough of this socialized US Army!

Posted by: Stefan on July 11, 2007 at 9:54 AM | PERMALINK

How many people died in the Chicago heat wave of 1995?

Posted by: rabbit on July 11, 2007 at 9:55 AM | PERMALINK

Normie, let the Ativans kick in, pal. I may be mistaken about IRS agents (tell me, was all this goonery during whatever financial malfeasance sent you to the pokey?), but I could only be lying if I had direct evidence of the IRS acting worse than collection agents. As I've dealt with both, that is not the case. Call me a liar again, sir, and I shall challenge you to a duel. I suggest epithets at 10 paces.

Posted by: Dano on July 11, 2007 at 10:00 AM | PERMALINK

Critics of national health care sound an awful lot like they hate the troops-- generally, working class people-- and their families, and only like them when they're standing in a uniform, holding a gun and ready to kick some Arab ass for our country.

Don't you want these working class people to be taken care of?

Posted by: Swan on July 11, 2007 at 10:09 AM | PERMALINK

How many people died in the Chicago heat wave of 1995?

About 300 in a couple of days.

Posted by: shortstop on July 11, 2007 at 10:09 AM | PERMALINK

I'm sorry but the waiting for procedures argument doesn't sway me. With "good" insurance (from 20th Century Fox, no less), I had to wait 9 months and see FIVE doctors before I could get ear surgery to treat hearing loss. I'm the fourth person in my family to get the surgery and while I had the worst waiting experience of the lot, talking with the others revealed two things:

1. Things have gotten progressively worse with each person getting the surgery
2. There appears to be deliberate delaying of this sort of care in hopes that patients will just give up.

I'd add that I found it rather absurd that my insurance company would claim that there was exactly ONE doctor in the greater Los Angeles area who could perform this procedure. It's not that exotic.

In the 90s the republican kept talking about how they didn't want the government deciding who our doctors were. They didn't tell us the alternative was to have it decided by accountants and lawyers.

Posted by: Don Hosek on July 11, 2007 at 10:12 AM | PERMALINK

Jesus people. Castro lets you film at the party hosptial and you think it is the general hospital?

Why not?- the right pretends that we all have 'the best health care in the world' because the Mayo Clinic happens to be here, never mind the fact that 99% of us would never have access to the place without a lottery win.

Do you know what I am proudest of? My ability to be immune to sentimentalism and pathos.

Gee, me too. I guess the real difference between us is that I'm not a self-satisfied asshole.

Posted by: latts on July 11, 2007 at 10:14 AM | PERMALINK

Orwell, when trying to criticize, be sure to NOT shoot yourself in the foot.

and the delivery system of the post office. Yeah, that will solve a whole lot of problems.

As Dano noted, it's possible to pay $0.41 and have a letter transported from the tip of Cape Cod to Nome in less than a week. That's actually pretty fucking impressive. Try that shit with Fedex.

And another thing?

Otherwise you are passing the buck.

Actually, I think many folks here are planning on assuming those costs - or at least we're hoping to. We just want the coverage to be universal, and the payments to come out of our taxes.
So we're working towards electing people who will codify it.

Would you mind if we passed a hat to get you a one way ticket to Vanatua? I hear that, through the wonders of the free market, real estate prices are declining. You can get a sweet, sweet deal on some oceanfront property.

Posted by: kenga on July 11, 2007 at 10:19 AM | PERMALINK

In the 90s the republican kept talking about how they didn't want the government deciding who our doctors were. They didn't tell us the alternative was to have it decided by accountants and lawyers.

Oh, balderdash.

Case and point--I required a medical procedure a few years ago to help me with a specific problem. It was NOT impotence, you guttersnipes. It was hair loss. I believed that I had a medical condition that was causing me to begin, in my mid-60s--to start losing hair. My hair went silver when I was still in my thirties--think Steve Martin.

So I went to my family physician and we initiated a series of tests. I was given medication. I was given a referral to a person who is NOT in the healthcare field who created what is termed a "hair system" that FAILED. After several lawsuits, I was able to recoup my funds and was able to find a person who could competently help me solve my health care/personal appearance issue and I have been quite satisfied ever since. (That's what she said!)

The point is this--in a government run medical system, Joe Six Pack gets in line ahead of me with his issues and I get to wait and wait and wait and wait and wait for someone to take care of my problems. That's hardly fair, nor is it efficient. The time and place that I got in line to get MY issues taken care of is irrelevant. I can pay for my health care, and thus I should receive the health care I can pay for.

I want to be able to go to a doctor and get my problems solved ASAP. I'm not waiting around, and I don't care if some idiot failed to properly plan out his daily meal regimen and subsequently gave himself a serious goiter. That's not my problem. Don't make YOUR aversion to eating salt MY problem. However, you hand over health care to the government, and your incompetence with regards to consuming the right amount of salt gets in the way of me having blonde hair once again, blonde hair that is full bodied, bleaches naturally when exposed to sunlight, and stays in place should I go swimming.

If that's what government run health care prevents, well, then government run health care is not the way to go, is it?

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 10:58 AM | PERMALINK

What was all that business about Castro?

"Our main problem with Castro was that he took out a dictator we liked, and put in a dictator we didn't like--himself."

Wasn't Castro the dictator we liked, at first? You'd think Moore would do just look over some basic history before making the film.

Posted by: Alex Parker on July 11, 2007 at 11:06 AM | PERMALINK

Actually, shortstop, I think it was more like 600. Anyway, it was a rhetorical question mainly to Alex Parker--the point is that the fact that a lot of people died in a heat wave is not necessarily evidence for or against a country's health care system.

Posted by: rabbit on July 11, 2007 at 11:06 AM | PERMALINK

Look y'all, our man Normie is a sad and lonely man (not to mention a coward and buffoon). It's clear that his hyperbolic posts are desperate pleas for attention, negative or otherwise. Given that fact, I generally ignore his posturing and whining. But I have to say, I think he's gone all Fonz on us and jumped the shark with this quote:

"Are you sick? Get better fast."

Clearly the last 200 years of advancement in medical science have passed our dear Normie by. Germ theory, it would appear, completely escapes him....

"Incubation, what's that?"

"Medicine, who needs it?"

"I rely on the sheer force of my will for its own trans-dimensional curative powers. As a result, I've never been sick for longer than 15 minutes. In fact, I once came down with black plague before breakfast but, thanks to my indomitable spirit, I was cured by the time I finished buttering my toast."

"Did I mention that the IRS used nanobots with microscopic chainsaws to drill holes in my brain and extract my vital essences so as to force me to pay off my back income taxes which, as we all know, are unconstitutional because the 17th Amendment was never properly ratified due to the scurrilous machinations of the Rothschilds and their radio beam project which they used to insert coded messages in Post Cornflakes (a very popular cereal back in 1913!) and subliminally coerce state legislators into approving the amendment, a method, I might note, that was later updated and revised in MKULTRA and Project BLUEBIRD, to force me to became a black DJ and hiphop artist better known as Terminator X. Did I?"

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 11:09 AM | PERMALINK

LOL the picture in my brain of a fat balding republican going into apoplexy over losing his hair and it's Normie made me fall off my chair lauhging. Jesus what an asshole. And probably either a criminal or a world class bullshitter when he talks about the IRS using chain saws to gain access to his house. This guy would maake a great new tv series . It would be a hit comedy. No wonder we can't get a civilized health care system in place in this country. we've got way too many morons to deal with.

Posted by: Gandalf on July 11, 2007 at 11:13 AM | PERMALINK

Visit to Cuba was an absolute necessity. I generally knew Cuba was better than what we are led to believe, but it was interesting to see the hospital in Havana. It was grand and drove home the point that even a poor country like Cuba can afford a majestic health care system because health care is life.

Cuba can afford it because it's always received massive subsidies from ideological allies, first the USSR, now Venezuela. (To be fair, the need for this is exacerbated by our idiotic embargo.)

A question for everyone gushing over Cuba: if Bush made the Republican party the only legal political party, repealed the 1st amendment, made Fox News and the Washington Times the only allowed news sources, and jailed the entire staff of the ACLU, PFAW, etc., but also created a universal healthcare system for all Americans, would you consider this a fair tradeoff?

I think our current system of health insurance needs to change, and I think our Cuba policy is counterproductive, but it amazes me that the people who whine constantly (but correctly) about Bush/Cheney's desecration of the Constitution so easily forget their concern for civil liberties when discussing Cuba.

Posted by: Nat on July 11, 2007 at 11:14 AM | PERMALINK

force me to became a black DJ and hiphop artist better known as Terminator X.

Someone posting under another handle keeps bringing that up. Do I care? No. Is it irrelevant and sad? Yes.

Quit being a ninny. There is power in positive thinking, but of course people need to see doctors and have their health issues taken care of, be they physical internat or physical external. I'm not arguing against that. I fully believe in the science of fighting germs--that is why I don't use anti-bacterial products like Purell. They make the strain of bacteria stronger and more dangerous.

If your lifestyle--hello, dirty hippies on drugs? ring any bells?--causes you health care issues, why do I have to live with government run health care that puts an overdosing clown ahead of me in line for care?

Shouldn't the person who couldn't handle their acid trip go to the back of the line for care?

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 11:17 AM | PERMALINK

Norman, the reason you have to put up with dirty hippies on acid, is the same reason I have to put up with obese suburbanites in SUVs.

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 11:19 AM | PERMALINK

Norm, I keep bringing up your alter-ego 'cuz I really, really love "Valley of the Jeep Beats." Not to mention, when I saw you guys touring with Anthrax back in 1991 your scratch work on "I Am the Man" was mind-boggling.

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

Nat: A question for everyone gushing over Cuba: if Bush made the Republican party the only legal political party, repealed the 1st amendment, made Fox News and the Washington Times the only allowed news sources, and jailed the entire staff of the ACLU, PFAW, etc., but also created a universal healthcare system for all Americans, would you consider this a fair tradeoff?

You're going to have to point me to a single post "gushing over Cuba." Noting that in this case, Americans who couldn't get treatment at an American hospital received it at a facility in Cuba is a statement of a very specific fact, not an embrace of an entire regime.

Your "question" bears about as much resemblance to reality as any of our more pathetic trolls' ludicrously binary perspectives. Since you're not a troll, your posing such a question is particularly pathetic.

Posted by: shortstop on July 11, 2007 at 11:27 AM | PERMALINK

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 8:57 AM:
The fact of the matter is, the insurance industry is the reason why American health care is the finest in the world. People flock to this country for health care.

Steve Yzerman is quite wealthy by most standards. He is also a naturalized American citizen. While starring for The Detroit Red Wings, he could have work-related injuries treated by ANY specialist of his choosing. When he needed career-extending knee surgery a few years prior to his retirement, he chose to have it done in Canada.

Posted by: G.Kerby on July 11, 2007 at 11:28 AM | PERMALINK

the picture in my brain of a fat balding republican going into apoplexy over losing his hair and it's Normie made me fall off my chair lauhging.

Sir, I have 6% body fat--as of two weeks ago--so I would hardly fall into the category of a "fat" man. I am lean and mean and I have the eye of the tiger. I can walk six miles without stopping and I lift handweights three times a week. I am in excellent health, and I am more predator than prey.

My hair system restored my hair line to its original configuration, which diminished slightly due to a drop in my body chemistry. That is all that was done. I did not panic--I used the health care industry to good effect and took care of myself. What's wrong with that?

Private industry can do a BETTER job than the government in many instances. Why do liberals fail to accept that?

Jesus what an asshole.

Jesus was NOT an asshole, sir.

And probably either a criminal or a world class bullshitter when he talks about the IRS using chain saws to gain access to his house.

Full disclosure: agents of the IRS and the FBI investigated me and my extended family for tax evasion in the late 1970s. NOTHING EVER CAME OF IT. They used pickaxes, chainsaws, blowtorches and a battering ram on the house we used to own in Groton, CT based on a charge sworn by a disgruntled employee of my father's now defunct defense firm. They claimed to have found the smoking gun. What they found were a few naughty magazines, a dead mouse, thirteen ounces of gold and maybe--maybe, evidence that we were not reporting our investment income in a manner that was timely. So what?

The judge threw it all out when he saw what they did to the walls and the crawlspace. I believe the words he used were not fit to repeat in polite conversation.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 11:28 AM | PERMALINK

Normie, I believe Gandalf was looking to Jesus for a little "moral" support. Or perhaps importuning him for a brief respite from your rhetorical hash. I'm not sure, but I definitely know he did not write "Jesus was an asshole."

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 11:32 AM | PERMALINK

Normo, as long as you don't show us the "cream of the fight", I'll accept that your all predator. Like a pantha!

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 11:34 AM | PERMALINK

Alex Parker, do some reading. We never liked Castro. It was Batista we liked.

Nat, no one is gushing over Cuba. It isn't as if they went from democracy to dictatorship, the Cuban people traded a right wing dictator for a left wing one. We like right wing dictators because they let us externalize costs to their people. We hate left wing dictatorships because they don't. They do evil things like nationalizing their natural resources. You know, the process whereby the people of the nation are granted a stake in our resources under their feet.

Posted by: noel on July 11, 2007 at 11:34 AM | PERMALINK

I think I have to opt for world class bullshitter and also reading comprehension of a third grader. In reference to{Jesus what an asshole} I was talking about you Normie not Jesus. 6% body fat bwahahahahaha.
And also your anecdotal evidence about government sevices is not a good indication of how any particular govt agency works.
Most govt agencies seemed to work rather smooth up until Bush and his gang of criminals took over.

Posted by: Gandalf on July 11, 2007 at 11:38 AM | PERMALINK

Steve Yzerman

Don't throw hockey in my face, sir. For every Stevie Y, there's at least a dozen players who have reconstructive knee surgery done right here in the good old US of A. For every instance where a player born in Canada goes back to Canada to get treatment--hello, he LIVES there!--there's a player who refuses to go back to Belarus and have a drunken communist slice open the wrong knee and install Party-approved cartilage harvested from the old Soviet-era cartilage farm in Novosibirsk.

And Stevie Y is no Joe Sakic, my friend.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 11:39 AM | PERMALINK

Uh-oh! Cue the Survivor, Norm's taking his gloves off!

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

My reading comprehension is excellent.

It was posted:

Jesus what an asshole.

I took that to mean "Jesus: What an ASSHOLE!" because of the run-on sentences and the lack of adequate punctuation used by the poster.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

For every IRS agent using dynamite and dogs with bees in their mouths to harass innocent defense contractors and their tousle-haired teenagers, there's another 412 peacefully auditing the scum of the earth.

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

Given it's lack of punctuation, I took "Jesus what an asshole" to mean "Jesus, I want to defecate on your image, call it Art with a capital "A", and receive $436,000 in NEA grants, which I fullly intend to blow on 8-balls and cheap licker." I mean, we all know Gandalf is just a dirty liberal, what else could he have meant?

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 11:47 AM | PERMALINK
Jesus people. [...]

Usually, those are called "Christians".

But I think you mean: "Jesus, people. [...]"

Or possibly "Jesus! People, [...]"

Posted by: cmdicely on July 11, 2007 at 11:54 AM | PERMALINK

what else could he have meant?

Typical liberals. You want me to explain what he meant when he can't articulate it himself. You want a free handout from the government. You want big Daddy Government to cry you a river when your health problems blow up in your ill-prepared face. You want this, you want that, me! me! me! me!

How about doing something for yourself for a change? I think I spelled this out for you morons. No comprende, sir?

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 11:55 AM | PERMALINK

Thank you, "cmdicely." I really appreciate the efforts that gals like you make to improve the clarity of arguments. You do an excellent job of explaining things to people who have no idea what the hell they're doing.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 11:59 AM | PERMALINK

Norm, I see you've taken a minute away from spinning another phat disk to finally recognize that you and I share the same wavelength. That Gandalf is just searching for hand-outs from the guvmint to fuel yet another drug-induced orgy of Art, Violence, Sex, and Sodomy in his liberal-filled Soho loft, and when the chickens come home to roost, which they will, and his liver is cooked and his kidneys are shot, and his hair has prematurely whitened thanks to all the lisurgic acid dithalimide in his body, then sure as shootin' he'd better go to the back of the line at the free health clinic, 'cuz you and me bud, we're going to be there working the system getting our hairlines replaced and whiping our muscle-bound, 6% body-fat, don't-take-no-shite-from-no-one, eye of the tiger bodies into a fightintg form. I'm with you Norm, I am with you!!!

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

Norm, I see you've taken a minute away from spinning another phat disk to finally recognize that you and I share the same wavelength. That Gandalf is just searching for hand-outs from the guvmint to fuel yet another drug-induced orgy of Art, Violence, Sex, and Sodomy in his liberal-filled Soho loft, and when the chickens come home to roost, which they will, and his liver is cooked and his kidneys are shot, and his hair has prematurely whitened thanks to all the lisurgic acid dithalimide in his body, then sure as shootin' he'd better go to the back of the line at the free health clinic, 'cuz you and me bud, we're going to be there working the system getting our hairlines replaced and whiping our muscle-bound, 6% body-fat, don't-take-no-shite-from-no-one, eye of the tiger bodies into a fightintg form. I'm with you Norm, I am with you!!!

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 12:01 PM | PERMALINK

Oops, technical difficulties. And I meant "whipping", but only in the proper self-flagelatory sense, not the onanistic, Gandalfian sense.

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 12:02 PM | PERMALINK

Good God--it's you, isn't it?

Tell me this "Everett Volk" person isn't the criminally insane mastermind who used to perpetrate these threads with insanity and bullcrap...

A man by the humble name of...rmck1?

Moderators, please remove this man if this is the case. He may be unstable.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 12:05 PM | PERMALINK

Moderators, please remove this man if this is the case. He may be unstable.
Posted by: Norman Rogers

Pot, meet Kettle.

Posted by: DJ on July 11, 2007 at 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

Michael Moore is bombastic and a polemicist.

How any good left-winger can honestly criticize Michael Moore is beyond me. Michael Moore is as close as you can get to an ideal example of what a left-winger should be. There's hardly anything more one can do to be a good American and do good for the people of this country.

My feeling is that if it was Emma Goldman, or some bra-burning feminist activist from the '60s, demonstrating similar courage and using similar rhetoric and eloquence, we would hear only praise about speaking truth to power and no complaints, and the fact that the messenger is an out-of-shape, white male with working-class roots (like millions of people in this country the left-wing purports to speak for, and that have a big stake in this country) is the decisive factor.

Posted by: Swan on July 11, 2007 at 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

False alarm. "Everett Volk" appears to be this dismal fellow:

Everett Volk
Industry: Law
Occupation: Unemployed
Location: Washington : DC
About Me
I am NOT the happily married, devilishly handsome and tragically underemployed lawyer from Washington, DC, who loves the environment, politics and bicycles and who just happens to share my name. Nope. Definitely not. I'm someone else and this is my blog.
Favorite Music
Sonic Youth Waylon & Willie the Butthole Surfers

An unemployed lawyer who likes something called "Butthole Surfers?"

You receive my pity sir, and not much else.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 12:09 PM | PERMALINK

I may be unstable, I may be criminally insane, I may even have voted for that trotskyite John McCain in 2000, but I ain't that hedonistic, liberal troll rmck1. I am insulted at the comparison. He, a man (?) who eschewed all dictates of online etiquette, a poster who violated every precept of civility, a foul-mouthed blogger who heaped vitriol upon insult. You dare compare me to him? You sir, are a dastardly liberal!

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 12:09 PM | PERMALINK

Good Lord, Everett Volk.

Your last blog entry was January of 2006. What the hell have you been doing, sir? Don't you think your readers have been breathlessly awaiting that desperately needed follow-up post? Don't you think you should get off your unemployed little ass and do something, sir? Are you waiting for the government to post on your little blog for you?

A blog that goes from Jan/06 to Jul/07 would definitely make better reading than Political Animal by Kevin Dumbo.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 12:12 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, I'm the other one.

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 12:13 PM | PERMALINK

America simply does not understand the Canadian experience in health care.

6 hours in emergency......a bed in hall for two days until you get a room....6 month wait for elective surgery.....3 months to see a specialist, etc etc. etc....this is the norm not the exception.

Posted by: David on July 11, 2007 at 12:13 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, I'm the other one.

The one who wrote that Amazon.com review in 2000? Great scott, you're even lazier than your nom de plume.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

6 hours in emergency......a bed in hall for two days until you get a room....6 month wait for elective surgery.....3 months to see a specialist, etc etc. etc....this is the norm not the exception.

Not only that, but there's a six-month waiting list to get CPR...and you can only get an ambulance if you book two years in advance...and if you fall down and break your leg they just leave you there, sometimes for years at a time, while callous, unfeeling Canadians walk over or around you as you writhe in pain.....

Posted by: Stefan on July 11, 2007 at 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

What the hell have I been doing? Are you sure you want to know? It's a sordid tale. It involves liposuction, guvmint health care, the FBI, 14% body-fat, a tiger, and a 55-gallon drum of medicinal vinegar. I can go into all the gory details if you want, but I need to take a moment to cash my welfare check and drop down to the corner store to by another 40. Let me know if you want to hear the rest.

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 12:17 PM | PERMALINK

No, no, no. The other, other one. The Brownback supporter in the American flag underoos.

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 12:19 PM | PERMALINK

My thanks to you Everett. Being the poor adlebrained uneducated filthy unwashed member of the masses that I am it's most decent of you to take up my cause against the pompous overlord Normie. My scrawny 6'4" 212lb body can barely take the verbal abuse of a rightwing mastermind like Normie.Once again thank-you.
P.S. I love Jesus.

Posted by: Gandalf on July 11, 2007 at 12:19 PM | PERMALINK

6 hours in emergency......a bed in hall for two days until you get a room....6 month wait for elective surgery.....3 months to see a specialist, etc etc. etc....this is the norm not the exception.

Assuming, for the purposes of my amusement, that this delusion is true, pray tell me, please, what the average wait time is for an emergency room in the US? What about for elective surgery for an American who does not have health insurance? How long does an American who does not have health insurance have to wait to see a specialist? It's about infinity, right? They'll never get that elective surgery, they'll never see a specialist, right?

Posted by: Stefan on July 11, 2007 at 12:22 PM | PERMALINK

It's why I like you Norm. I know you're patriotic to your underpants, just like me. Not to mention, built like a boxer, able to whip armies of liberals with your bare hands, and primed to fight off aggressive CPAs at a moment's notice. You and me Norm, we're the only ones left holding up our end of the grand American social contract. Everyone else? They ran off to cozy up to Uncle Sam and his paved roads, and cheap prescription drugs, and free education. Bah! Humbug!

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 12:24 PM | PERMALINK

It's a sordid tale. It involves liposuction, guvmint health care, the FBI, 14% body-fat, a tiger, and a 55-gallon drum of medicinal vinegar.

I see you've met my ex-girlfriend. Please tell her I say hi!

Posted by: Stefan on July 11, 2007 at 12:24 PM | PERMALINK

No problem Gandalf. Normo is a mean, lean fighting machine with movie star hair. It would probably take 5 or 6 of us scrawny liberals to best him in a thumb-wrestling match, much less here amongst the rhetorical carnage of the blogospheric battlefield.

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 12:28 PM | PERMALINK

Everett you've catapulted to the status of demigod with your extraordinary wit and uncanny ability to roast the unsuspecting bloviaters with style and grace.My friend I am truly in awe.

Posted by: Gandalf on July 11, 2007 at 12:33 PM | PERMALINK

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 11:39 AM:
Don't throw hockey in my face, sir. For every Stevie Y, there's at least a dozen players who have reconstructive knee surgery done right here in the good old US of A. For every instance where a player born in Canada goes back to Canada to get treatment--hello, he LIVES there!--

WRONG ... he lives in metro Detroit year-round and is a PROUD American - by choice not birthright .

And Stevie Y is no Joe Sakic, my friend.

... and while Joe, like Steve, is a hall-of-famer to be, he is no Yzerman. Steve's leadership on the ice is unequaled in the modern-day NHL.

Posted by: G.Kerby on July 11, 2007 at 12:34 PM | PERMALINK
...the people who... lose their concern for civil liberties when discussing Cuba. Nat at 11:14 AM
When someone expends so much time tilting against straw men, readers can be assured of finding zero meaningful content.
.......this is the norm not the exception. David at 12:13 PM
Except it isn't but, not to worry, the US is worse. Grow up, Dave, the US ranks with the third world in healthcare. Haven't you heard? Americans are Canada's Mexicans Posted by: Mike on July 11, 2007 at 12:38 PM | PERMALINK

Shouldn't the person who couldn't handle their acid trip go to the back of the line for care?
Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 11:17 AM | PERMALINK

Of course they should.

But it sounds like your argument is against the Triage system, not anything having any relation to Socialized or Nationalized Health care systems.

Does the IRS let people pay extra to file on-line to get their return back quicker?
Yes.

Does the DMV allow people to phone in appointments to avoid long waits in line? (they do in California).

There's no reason why a system of priorities can't be attached to our National Healthcare - and I'm sure that since it's Americans writing these laws, that it will be determined by American Values. Dirty OD-ing hippies don't rate very high there. Not as highly as guys who sustain massive head trauma from being pushed down stairs in a wheelchair.

Posted by: osama_been_forgotten on July 11, 2007 at 12:39 PM | PERMALINK

...and if you fall down and break your leg they just leave you there, sometimes for years at a time, while callous, unfeeling Canadians walk over or around you as you writhe in pain.....

Now, that is not true. Our Canadian friends are renowned for their traffic tidiness. There is no way someone wouldn't just drag the body to the edge of the pavement so as not to impede pedestrian flow.

Posted by: shortstop on July 11, 2007 at 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

It's why I like you Norm. I know you're patriotic to your underpants, just like me.

Silly. Normie goes commando.

Posted by: Paula Zahn on July 11, 2007 at 12:48 PM | PERMALINK

Disrespecting the Butthole Surfers is a definite sign that Norman is a cheap computer program, not a human.

Just look them up on You Tube-

Death Race 2000 shrunk to 7 minutes & set to the Surfers Dust Devil has more wisdom than a week at this board!

(also an eerily accurate prediction of how Mr Preznit would be chosen in 2000)

Posted by: Downpuppy on July 11, 2007 at 12:54 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, Sweet Jesus! Downpuppy, any chance you could provide a link to said video?

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 1:00 PM | PERMALINK

Do you clowns even need me around anymore? It's like you're all giving each other contact highs.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 1:08 PM | PERMALINK

The basic model in the United States has been the privatization of profit and the socialization of costs.

This basic truth cannot be repeated enough.

Posted by: Disputo on July 11, 2007 at 1:09 PM | PERMALINK

Now, that is not true. Our Canadian friends are renowned for their traffic tidiness. There is no way someone wouldn't just drag the body to the edge of the pavement so as not to impede pedestrian flow.

Nonsense! They wouldn't stoop to drag you -- the traffic-minded Canadians would merely kick you in the ribs until you were so maddened by pain you'd drag yourself.

Posted by: Stefan on July 11, 2007 at 1:12 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan: the traffic-minded Canadians would merely kick you in the ribs until you were so maddened by pain you'd drag yourself

Of course, that's the Canadian style of encouraging self-reliance.

Posted by: alex on July 11, 2007 at 1:21 PM | PERMALINK
Do you clowns even need me around anymore?
You're always the life of the party Norman. Have another drink.
Downpuppy, any chance you could provide a link to said video?

I think he had this in mind.

Posted by: JS on July 11, 2007 at 1:30 PM | PERMALINK

I find Norm hilarious. I'm suspecting he's just got a really funky sense of humor.

Norm, you can't possibly be serious, right?

Posted by: DrFood on July 11, 2007 at 1:32 PM | PERMALINK

Nope. Feel free to continue work on your next solo project and leave the decimation of liberal lies to me.

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 1:35 PM | PERMALINK

Norman Rogers:

You ask, "Does that make me a bad person--no!"

Actually, the answer is yes, it does make you a bad person.

People are considered good for what they do for others and their care for others.

See:

Christ, Jesus
Mother Teresa

Anyway, for those not familiar, here's what Norman Rogers said that prompted my comment:

"Do you know what I am proudest of? My ability to be immune to sentimentalism and pathos. I watch pictures and stories about sad, sad little people and their inability to cope and their little diseases and their unmet needs and I find myself completely indifferent to their suffering. Does that make me a bad person--no! It makes me a strong person."

Posted by: david in norcal on July 11, 2007 at 1:38 PM | PERMALINK

Norm's motto: Strength through Indifference!

Posted by: Disputo on July 11, 2007 at 1:40 PM | PERMALINK

People are considered good for what they do for others and their care for others.

Waah! Waah! I'm sick! Someone call me a "waaah-mbulance."

The fact of the matter is, we live in a world you can worship Jesus or Buddha or Mother Teresa and be turned into hamburger for it by an Islamic radical with bomb skills and the opportunity to take advantage of lax security.

How does that gibe with your "smile on your brother and love everybody and peace and love and wooooo, let's get bombed out of our gourd" mentality?

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 1:48 PM | PERMALINK

My frustration with Norman is that cannot figure out if his show is of a right-winger having fun with liberals or of a liberal putting on a Colbert act.

I lean toward the first theory, as a liberal would have felt sorry for all the poor souls who take him seriously and try to respond to him seriously.

Posted by: JS on July 11, 2007 at 1:49 PM | PERMALINK

My frustration with Norman is that cannot figure out if his show is of a right-winger having fun with liberals or of a liberal putting on a Colbert act.

I am very much a Republican and a conservative who has fun at the expense of a handful of bearded useless hippies. What the hell is a Colbert act? Is it anything like being stubborn and indifferent about doing something for as long as it takes to get out of having to do something? Because, that, sir, is passive aggressiveness.

I lean toward the first theory, as a liberal would have felt sorry for all the poor souls who take him seriously and try to respond to him seriously.

I will tell you something for nothing--life is not a pity party. Put away your tiara.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 11, 2007 at 1:56 PM | PERMALINK

...as a liberal would have felt sorry for all the poor souls who take him seriously and try to respond to him seriously.

Even with our proven moral rectitude (yes, Will, it's true) and renowned compassion, liberals can be forgiven for giving up on the hopelessly literal and the earnestly humorless.

Posted by: shortstop on July 11, 2007 at 2:04 PM | PERMALINK

So shortstop, you think it's #2? You do make a very good point.

Posted by: JS on July 11, 2007 at 2:11 PM | PERMALINK
....life is not a pity party....Norman Rogers at 1:56 PM
It is for you poor little 'publicans crying victimhood at every opportunity. The world is soooo unfair to you poor babies Posted by: Mike on July 11, 2007 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK

Norman, stick with the issue you raised. You said that you are indifferent (immune) to the suffering of others and take pride in not helping them except through encouragement.

You said this doesn't make you a bad person.

I said it does make you a bad person.

I don't quarrel with your actions or your stance, I quarrel that you take this stance and think you can be a good person too. No, you can't. What defines a "good person" has been debated over many eons and though the debate exists, the rough definition of good person categorically excludes the selfish as you described yourself.

So, keep doing what you are doing, just don't think you aren't a bad person. Sure you are and if I do the same, so am I.

Posted by: david in norcal on July 11, 2007 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK

Wow, cue the Survivor again! Normie is kicking butt and taking names!

"Face to face, out in the heat
Hangin' tough, stayin' hungry
They stack the odds 'til we take to the street
For we kill with the skill to survive"

Rowr! He's a pantha! A predatah! He's Norman Rogers, a 6%-body-fat fightin' machine, and he's here to set your patchouli-splashing, beard-growing, birkenstock-wearing hippie no-good liberal self straight!

Posted by: Everett Volk on July 11, 2007 at 3:20 PM | PERMALINK

a "hair system" that FAILED. After several lawsuits, I was able to recoup my funds and was able to find a person who could competently help me solve my health care/personal appearance issue and I have been quite satisfied ever since.
Norman @ 10:58 AM


norman is such a repub that he filed lawsuits about his HAIR ... ???? he thinks that his hair problems should be taken care of ASAP -- not the others who might be in line in front of him with other problems like diabetes, cancer, arthritis, etc....

Posted by: not NORM on July 11, 2007 at 5:17 PM | PERMALINK

We played "Eye of the Tiger" at my wedding. Top that Normstein...

Posted by: Clive on July 11, 2007 at 5:42 PM | PERMALINK

how would Norm answer this? just curious.

".... Could you imagine if we applied this extreme privatization philosophy across the board? The poor can't afford police insurance, so the police won't stop massive crime on the streets because they can't tell if the victims are insured or not. Firemen check to see if you have fire insurance before they pull you out of a fire. Or they check to see if they can deny your claim because of a pre-existing fire.

This argument for unfettered corporatism (capitalism has many checks built into it, and has never been a system that advocated turning over all the responsibilities of government to private corporations) would literally lead to chaos. It is one step removed from anarchy. Ironically, it comes closer to Karl Marx's absurd vision of a communist utopia where the government melts away than any true form of capitalism.

If we won't tolerate chaos and anarchy in our police and fire departments where people's lives are on the line, why do we tolerate it when it is in our healthcare system -- and people's lives are on the line? ... "

link

Posted by: not NORM on July 11, 2007 at 7:09 PM | PERMALINK

This argument for unfettered corporatism (capitalism has many checks built into it, and has never been a system that advocated turning over all the responsibilities of government to private corporations) would literally lead to chaos. It is one step removed from anarchy.

Hence the term anarcho-capitalism.

Posted by: Disputo on July 11, 2007 at 7:18 PM | PERMALINK

Bravo, Mr Volk. (I want to call you C. Everett Volk). And Bravo to you Norman, for at least being offensive in a witty, resourceful manner. My vote is that Normie is actually a very bright liberal tired of being all serious all the time. Keep those wheels of steel goin', Normie! Ah-wickie-wickie-wickie!

Posted by: Captain on July 12, 2007 at 3:20 AM | PERMALINK

...we live in a world you can worship Jesus or Buddha or Mother Teresa and be turned into hamburger for it...

It's also a world where you can be a muslim sitting around your house going "Doot, dee-doot, dee-doo" and get turned into hamburger for it.

Posted by: Dan on July 12, 2007 at 8:31 AM | PERMALINK

I'm glad that SiCKO is debunking the xenophobic attitudes of most Americans toward European and Canadaian healthcare systems, but really...d'uh!

Why was this ever even an issue? I'm no expert on nor do I possess any specially source of information on healthcare issues, but I've be aware of the comparative advantage of European style socialized medicine over the American system of medical piracy for my entire adult life! It's not that complicated, like most other things (mostly red) America gets wrong, it's just about staying awake and paying attention!

How the hell did the US turn into such a bunch of ignorant turnips???

Posted by: Chesire11 on July 12, 2007 at 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

Until America can rid itself of its greed, our country will continue on a road of "efficiency and profit". Maybe we can develop a technology where we won't need to even sleep! We can get our energy from a machine. Then we can work more hours in the day and not have time for our families and friends. Does anyone else notice this?? Other countries care so much more about loving each other, taking care of each other and making time for LIFE. For example, in the film it showed getting 6 months of paid time off when you have a baby! That is so important. However, America is only worried about the bottom line and making the most money in the shortest amount of time. And since our leaders can be paid the most by the insurance companies, the likelihood of a system is grim. Who can stand up to the bribery and stand up for our country?

Posted by: Niki on July 24, 2007 at 5:33 PM | PERMALINK

"A question for everyone gushing over Cuba: if Bush made the Republican party the only legal political party, repealed the 1st amendment, made Fox News and the Washington Times the only allowed news sources, and jailed the entire staff of the ACLU, PFAW, etc., but also created a universal healthcare system for all Americans, would you consider this a fair tradeoff?"

There's almost 50M Americans without health insurance, and 18,000 of them die each year, unnecessarily, due to lack of health care. I bet any of those 18,000 (annually) would've been willing to accept that tradeoff.

Anyway, it's a false dichotomy. You can have both universal, single-payer health care *and* a liberal democracy. In fact, almost the whole western world has both. Just not us.

Patrick Meighan
UCLA Class of '95

Posted by: Patrick Meighan on July 28, 2007 at 12:45 AM | PERMALINK

SFVflT comment4 ,

Posted by: Sbfxnzcg on June 27, 2009 at 2:51 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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