Well that ends all debate then.

Reality isn't important to most columnists and pundits. What matters is what they think reality should be, and they should know because they're so much smarter than everyone else. Bush is their perfect President because he is just like them.

That ends the debate about whether those views are mainstream, yes.

"Well that ends all debate then."

No, it changes the debate, or at least it should if anyone in our pundit class was actually connected to reality.

So can we call the 28%ers the 22%ers now?

The Hillary exit plan debate has sharp political subtleties and bolsters Feingold's arguments.
If Cheney and Rumsfeld had not, in what is called an act of depraved indifference, blocked plans and strategies by State, CIA and the Military to prepare for worst case scenarios before engaging in Iraq, America would today have a third less casualties.
When Hillary says where is the plan, which of course the Military has game-played for ten different scenarios, she is saying that America will not again tolerate political operatives to force our Military into incompetent alternatives.
Hillary is stating that America does not want a White House political opinion or worse yet a Bush/Cheney political plan. Congress and the troops deserve a set of plans, in hand now thank you very much, created by the best minds so that the withdrawal will neither be delayed nor botched to give political advantage to the creators of this mess.
Military planning will indicate how many deaths, how much cost and what time frame(s) their withdrawal plans indicate.
Knowing the Military's best estimates makes the overall cost of withdrawal more of a factual matter and less open to Bush/Cheney/Rove fear mongering, propaganda and general political sloganeering.

Note to David Gregory:

stop being a neocon/bush boot licker.

You insulted a vast majority of your viewers and the public with you stupid angry attack These bloggers are not the left, fucktard. this is the fed up majority of the Americdan public.

what an ass wipe... could he be posturing for a new position with fox?

Mike K - .....

Are you being serious?

Fred Hiatt. Bob Novak. William Kristol. George Will. "Dean" Broder.

And you're telling me the WaPo is too liberal......

"left wing publication like the WaPo "

Too funny.

I guess you buy the whole stupid story, the wild assed theories that the media has some kind of liberal bias

LOL.

And have a quick look at a synopsis of Al Gore's new book. He has written an astonishing attack on this Administration.

THE ASSAULT ON REASON, in two minutes:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=P6nTAR2MVYQ

Gee, shouldn't that be "note to journalist"?

And those polls don't seem to indicate that congress has "lower" polls than Bush.

Nobody but Dick Cheney has a lower poll then Bush.

AND Dems need more MEDIA talk to point out that Republicans are the ONES obstucting what Americans want - and if Americans want change, DON"T vote Republcan.

My guess is they haven't got it Kevin. Only lefties oppose the Iraq war.

Maybe the word needs to be gotten out that the policy was changed. Rumsfeld was fired and an entire new strategy was implemented. Every metric shows the new policy to be a success.

Look, get over this democracy stuff. You're consumers, not citizens, there to be fed stuff to (whether it's good for you or not; and we'll be the determiners of that, thank you very much). This war thing just needs a little rebranding.

Dear 'fats',
Go drink another milkshake.

"Maybe the word needs to be gotten out that the policy was changed."

Really? We're leaving Iraq now? Cool.

Yeah, like nobody has ever heard of "the Surge." Why, no news orgaization has covered that at all in the past six months.

"Rumsfeld was fired and an entire new strategy was implemented."

You mean the "more of the same," "stay the course" strategy?

"Every metric shows the new policy to be a success."

Well, except for the military, terrorist, infrastructure, and political metrics. Other than that, everything's great!

You'll start seeing more of the "One Man, With Jesus, IS A Majority" bumper stickers around soon.

It's all they've got left to sell the rubes.

it's obviously the democrats' fault. they haven't done enuf to compromise with the repubs. they made the war a political issue, labeling their opponents as unpatriotic traitors...no wait. i think i have that backwards.

Thanks, Kevin. I plan to e-mail my representative and two senators this evening and urge them to: (1) Defund this war, and (2) Impeach Bush and Cheney, in that order.

Kevin writes: Note to columnists: this is the mainstream of U.S. opinion.

Who says columnists need to recognize mainstream U.S. opinion? And, more importantly, do any of those people underwrite their paychecks? Enlightenment will naturally proceed from honest answers to these questions.

(I'm getting pretty damned tired of pointing this out to our host.)

The conservative deflator 9:50 PM :
Impeach Bush and Cheney, in that order.

You're usually pretty sharp but you got that one backwards. Cheney must go first. President Cheney? I tremble.

Slightly shorter Bush admin:

Dear Mr. Drum:
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. We will consider them along with all the other well-intentioned and sincere comments this administration has received from citizens like yourself.

Notwithstanding your comments and the wishes of the American people, the administration deems it preferable to roll the dice, hazarding the lives, well-being and funds of others, in the admittedly small hopes for a glorious victory during the remainder of this president's term in office.

Although seemingly a rash course to some, our president intends to stay the course and stick with the "Surge" strategy regardless of the ever-deeper human tragedy in Iraq and in our own country. He's hoping against hope that "something will turn up" so that a major photo-op victory parade down Pennsylvania Avenue might still be possible before Jan. 20, 2009. The president calls it his "I hope we win, I hope we win, I hope we win" policy.

Thanks again for writing to voice your concerns as an American. Oh, and screw you and the rest of the American people -- you see, we're not running for re-election, are we?

egbert:

It would be nice if someone would attempt to manage US policy and the war. How many people has Bush appointed through the years that were to "manage" the war, as in, where's the LATEST war czar dude, and by the way, wasn't Condi in charge sometime back?

It is clear from the (non)results that the incompetence of the Bush administration is unparalled in modern history.

A prime example, Osama was the evil genius that must be destroyed at all costs, was allowed to escape, then became "unimportant", but is now is back at the top of the list as an evil genius. Talk about flip-flops, this time with with blood on them!!!

The only genuine accomplishment of this administration has been the destruction of the reputation and future of America.

Egbert, either you are a paid plant or you are simply one of the delusional fools whose minds have been irretrievably damaged by the continuous drip feed of neocon BS in your IV bag.

Aren't you the same guys that piss and moan about how many yokels still believe Saddam was connected to 911? Yet you think some tendentious slippery poll questions should be treated as gospel when they support your cut-and-run ideas... I prefer to trust General Zinni, John Burns, Hillary Clinton, Ken Pollack, Joe Lieberman, Bill Clinton, Richard Holbrooke and the rest of those that know more is at stake than giving GWB a Bronx cheer.

They aren't listening, Kevin.
Neither is the administration.
Neither is Congress.
The Supreme Court doesn't care what we think, either.

So, what to do?

Watch your back.

When it happens, we'll wonder:

What took so long?

thersites:

Fair point - Impeach Cheney, then Bush! I just finished my three e-mails. Hope everyone here follows suit. Bitchin' about these criminals on a blog comments section is not the same as writing your Congresscritter directly. Do it!

By the way, has everyone heard the Iraqi oil revenue-sharing agreement fell apart again? Things just keep spiraling downward, don’t they?

TCD

Delay, delay, delay.

Here's the REVISED version of the Republican plan to bring the troops home from Iraq:

Delay until Cheney and his Big Oil clients get the oil deal they want: delay until Setember, delay until October, delay until November, delay until the spring of 2008, delay until the spring of 2009.

(Cheney will be out of office in January 2009 so spring may come a bit earlier that year).

Aren't you the same guys that piss and moan about how many yokels still believe Saddam was connected to 911? I prefer to trust General Zinni, John Burns, Hillary Clinton, Ken Pollack, Joe Lieberman, Bill Clinton, Richard Holbrooke and the rest of those that know more is at stake than giving GWB a Bronx cheer.

Why didn't you trust Anthony Zinni when he said Iraq was the "wrong war at the wrong time" and that "Saddam was contained"?

Why would you ever trust Ken "I was so fucking wrong about Iraq it's not funny" Pollack, notorious author of "Saddam's Bombs: We Will Find Them."

To admit in public that you trust Lieberman, who pro-war journalist Michael Ware described as having taken an "excursion into fantasy" regarding the situation in Iraq, suggests that you perhaps have some sort of pychological disorder.

And finally, Hillary Clinton and Richard Holbrooke both advocate withdrawal from Iraq and have criticized the war in the harshest terms. Bill Clinton has signaled that the effort has failed and that a "change in course" is inevitable. Perhaps you did not get the memo?

To wit:

YOU are one of the yokels.

Kevin is correct about the public's feelings about the war. Part of the reason is that much of the media report only bad news. E.g., NPR's Lehrer Report identifies dead American soldiers and has features about injured American soliders, and occassionally reports on the war itself when some aspect has gone wrong. People who depend on Lehrer for their news coverage are unaware of the many successes since the surge began and the improvements in conditions in many parts of Iraq.

But, don't count on public opinion holding. When Gen. Petraeus gives his positive report in September, the media will not be able to avoid covering it (although they will try their best.) If the public comes to believe that a successful outcome is possible, many of them will change their minds and support the war.

In form, I think Clinton was a clear winner, followed by Edwards and then Obama. In form, I'd give it to the unwinnables: Gravel and Kucinich. I thought the format was terrible and contributed to the dumbing down of discourse in America.

How do YOU feel about the debate tonight? Who do YOU think won the debate? Vote for your candidate on http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=217

Make your voice heard. You can vote on polls on the topic of importance to you, and if it's not there, you can sign up and create a poll in less than a minute (literally).

It's new, it's easy and it's cool...and above all, it's good for the public debate.

http://www.youpolls.com. Check it out.

The demographics on this poll caught my attention.

35% Democrat; 23% Republican

BUT...

22% Liberal; 32% Conservative

Don't recall other recent polls, but is this Democrat vs Liberal ratio typical?

AMerkabah...America.

You know I always hear people, left and right, complain about the Jewish lobby.All they have to do is stop taking their money. Yet they don't. Hrmmm.
Why is dat? Why do so many politicos sell themselves like DC Madams?

The war is unpopular because of the media?

Before that, it was 'the war is only unpopular with you turncoats'...

...How about one of you 'let's finish this' would explain... What are we finishing? What is there left for our troops to do?

Our troops are unwanted, and have been since day one. We don't employ locals. We can't employ locals.

We can't force them to make the political concessions necessary. And as long as we're there, AQI will be fed, and be able to slip between the factions and stir up trouble.

Once we're gone, there won't be room for them in the civil war (or lack thereof) that then happens.

you think some tendentious slippery poll questions should be treated as gospel when they support your cut-and-run ideas...

If I'm completely honest with myself, there is a part of me that's not unhappy to see you stick with you stay-and-die policies. That there is a good that comes from keeping the empire occupied, letting it slowly bleed itself, that a world with dispersed power is almost always preferable... That is, until I start to think about the actual people bleeding.

I prefer to trust General Zinni, John Burns, Hillary Clinton, Ken Pollack, Joe Lieberman, Bill Clinton, Richard Holbrooke and the rest of those that know more is at stake than giving GWB a Bronx cheer.

While generally respectful of expertise, I prefer to exercise a healthy skepticism and ultimately, make my own decisions as to what I think of things. Also, I have learned that foreign policy "experts" in particular, should be treated skeptically. Too many with psychological axes to grind. Most all with masters to serve. Oh, and I suppose that someone like Joe Lieberman has a history of being flat out wrong about everything the little boy-man ever troubles to think about also has a bearing on my judgement of his "expertise." Sometimes the people do see things more clearly.

John Burns
Just said yesterday unilateral withdrawal will cause cataclysmic genocide.

Don't recall other recent polls, but is this Democrat vs Liberal ratio typical?

Dunno. I have asked many a conservative to define what 'liberal' means to them and they can't or won't do it. As well conservative has become another ill defined word.

For instance I live in (Red State)Republican Texas which was Democratic (Blue State) 20 years ago and we had Blue Laws in effect (Baptists didn't want people to work on sunday or buy work related items) There were far less liquor and beer stores in Texas back then under the Democrats. There were alot less illegal aliens, alot less drunks, and alot less pornography back then than today. Yet today the so called conservatives (mostly transplants from the north rust belt) have bloomed in Tejas. Conservatism, in Texas, Is a hypocrisy. These people are more liberal than the so called liberals. Ennyway I have no idea what Pundits, such as Limbaugh, mean when they say liberal or conservative. Its Orwellian Punditry!!

25% is the cellar of our representative democracy. A 3/4 majority for Constitutional amendments is the most demanding consensus demanded by our system. But I think he can drop into total obscurity while still holding office like Condi Rice if he tries hard enough. He is faith-based.

Who knew that *Nadir* would actually win? Still waiting for that last poll in December 2007 . . .

Democrats only care about the "Mainstream" when it flows in their direction. I've seen, for example, plenty of California initiatives that won by large majorities get killed by Democrats and the courts when the "will of the people" wasn't the "will of the Democratic Party."

"Mainstream" opposition to gay marriage typically floats between 50 to 70 percent. Oddly, the Democrats seem to be deaf to this particular opinion.

Ex-Lib

Gen. Petraeus won't give a positive report in September. The data won't support it. He'll give a mixed report and state that in his opinion there are elements that indicate that we are making progress, but we need to put in more effort and give it more time. [Or to translate it to Vietnam-speak "There is light at the end of the tunnel."] He'll ask for another Friedman Unit to 1 1/2 FU's.

He has to say that. His political masters will allow nothing less.

Count on it.

cataclysmic genocide

cataclysmic? Genocide enacted through natural disaster? Or is genocide itself now regarded as such a mundane, run-of-the-mill occurrence that it needs to be somehow hyped up?

Was that really John Burns? I had thought of him as a somewhat better writer.

Here's the winning line from the CNN/YouTube debate among Democratic candidates:

Clinton argued that U.S. troops must be removed from Iraq “safely and orderly and carefully.�

That's it: safely, orderly, carefully.

That's why she will win the nomination, win the election and carry the Congress.

Kevin: "Note to columnists: this is the mainstream of U.S. opinion. People don't like the war, don't trust Bush to prosecute it, and don't think Democrats have gone overboard in opposing it. Got that?"

But-but- what about John Edward's $2,000 haircut and Barack Obama wanting to teach kindergartners how to touch lesbians appropriately?

It would be nice if whoever moderates these things was as thorough about pulling the anti-Semitic Brownshirts off the board as they are about erasing posts from Al or others.

[Done. I'm trying to read Harry Potter, too, you know. :) --Mod ]

fats: "Every metric shows the new policy to be a success."

Unfortunately, we don't do metric in this country.

The demographics on this poll caught my attention.

35% Democrat; 23% Republican

BUT...

22% Liberal; 32% Conservative

Don't recall other recent polls, but is this Democrat vs Liberal ratio typical?
Posted by: pencarrow on July 23, 2007 at 11:37 PM

I generally think the growing mood in the country is a populist one. I think the reaction to the social upheaval of the 60's has lately evolved into a reaction to the anarcho-capitalism and neo-liberalism that took root in the '90's. What was primarily a social conservative reactionary mood which was captured at first by Republicans has boomeranged on the GOP because they are now perceived to be profiteering and corrupt at the expense of everyday people's economic lives. People are now looking to the Democrats to lead the country away from anarcho-capitalism and corruption and willing to re-embrace the best of "traditional liberal" economic policies once again.

How droll..."ex-liberal", apparently bereft of anything else, trots out the hoary "liberal media" canard.

You really do get a sick thrill out of posting the most disingenuous, bad faith arguments you possibly can here, don't you, "ex-liberal"?

As for Betrayus's September report, we've already had a preview in the recent interim report. The report will show overall failure of the surge, but cite isolated areas of "progress" (you know, the ones you and your warblogger buddies cling to like so many straws) and other incidents of failure dishoenstly spun as successes. And, of course, you'll be here as usual with your usual bullshit claims of success in Iraq.

No one's buying, "ex-liberal." General Betrayus, that Hugh Hewitt-interview-giving, credibility-lacking political animal, doesn't get to report "progress." He needs to report nothing short of victory. And that victory is simply not possible given the ongoing failures of Bush and the neocons whose boots you lick.

The American people have judged, quite rightly, that they are no longer willing to sacrifice their blood and treasure on the altar of Bush's ego and the neocons' ambitions. Yes, yes, you're prepared to demand more sacrifice, because you aren't making any yourself, but then you're a dishonest neocon toad, and no one takes you seriously.

You and your neocon pals have obviously lost. It's a shame that it's cost the blood of so many good Americans to show your crowd as the sick losers they are, but it's beyond clear simply from the bad faith of your arguments that you recognize that you're on the losing side of history, and you're taking what comfort you can in needling your betters with your bullshit. How pathetic of you, "ex-liberal."

When will you all get it into your heads that America is a MILITARISTIC country, where the instinct to adopt a military solution to any foreign problem is deeply ingrained?

This is a direct result of American exceptionalism: America is different, America's motives are always pure, so if something appears to go wrong it simply means that the residents of the invaded/occupied country are insufficiently grateful for the "blood and treasure" that Amwerica has expended on their behalf. Or, perhaps, they simply don't "get it".

No wonder the war goes on. Name a single prominent, acceptable politician who would ever come close to rejecting the above comments.

There would always be qualifications such as, "Well, we have the finest military in the world", or "We can't ever take the military option off the table".

Why does the most powerful country in the world constantly feel that it has to push other countries around? And why this persistent inability to understand that the rest of the world doesn't like it?

Why is America so thin skinned, so quick to take offence?

Here's the winning line from the CNN/YouTube debate among Democratic candidates:
Clinton argued that U.S. troops must be removed from Iraq “safely and orderly and carefully.�
That's it: safely, orderly, carefully.
That's why she will win the nomination, win the election and carry the Congress.

As opposed to what? This is the US military we're talking about; not a ladies sewing circle. The US military will be in Iraq for the next 50 years, guarding our supply of oil. Get over yourselves.

When and perhaps if you ever elect a Democrat President, suddenly--suddenly--liberals will get over their delusional hatred of President Bush and they will decide they like the war in Iraq.
I will now tell you something for nothing so bend your scrawny ears down to the monitor and listen to me whisper this in your carbuncle-budded little liberal ears:

Hillary Clinton will never be President.

Now that I have explained to you what is the gospel truth, let me explain to you why. America is a nation of individuals. Individuals who do their own thing. Look out your windows into your neighborhoods. Do you see people who don't care about you and what is going on with you in the dim glow of your Macintosh monitor? Do you see people with a light buzz from cheap alcohol and a plump gut? Do you see people who know more about American Idol than they know about American History? Do you see people who have never had a political thought in their lives? Of course you do. And those people vote only sporadically.

They answer the telephone and they lie to whoever calls them. They say things like "the check is in the mail" and "you're right, boss--that's a great idea!" and "I don't know what you're talking about, ma'am, I never called an escort service" and "sure--I'll vote for Hillary!"

The polls lie. America is not a country that enjoys being hectored by a shrew in a fright wig.

Norman, just because they sent the Beatles over in 1964 to take attention away from you does not mean you have the right to post anything you want anonymously on the Internet.

Take a deep breath and look at the numbers.

Why is America so thin skinned, so quick to take offence?

Why are you ignorant of history?

America has thrice saved the world from being dominated by:

1. Germany, Austria-Hungary
2. Germany, Japan, Italy
3. The Soviet Union

America is not "thin skinned" and America does not suffer from "exceptionalism." America thrives on being quick to take offense and America thrives on using power to force people to back off and sit down and shut the hell up. And if you don't like it, tough toenails.

Were the world to actually function the way that you would like it to, the resulting power vacuum would allow authoritarian dictators to take advantage of the weak and spread totalitarianism and socialism all over the globe. You criticize the very nation that ensures that you have the right to speak out. Have you been to China, North Korea, Cuba or Iran lately? Speak out and criticize those governments from the center of the town square in the capital cities of those countries. When they are frog-marching your goofy ass off to prison, remember that the only thing you can count on is that in America, you're free to make a boob out of yourself in public.

Stop being a self-righteous tool of authoritarianism, sir. Toolery is unbecoming.

Norman: the only thing you can count on is that in America, you're free to make a boob out of yourself in public.

Wow! No sense of irony. Bad sign, bad sign.

Norman does his Steven Colbert impersonation for us:

"Why are you ignorant of history?

America has thrice saved the world from being dominated by:

1. Germany, Austria-Hungary
2. Germany, Japan, Italy
3. The Soviet Union

America is not "thin skinned" and America does not suffer from "exceptionalism." America thrives on being quick to take offense and America thrives on using power to force people to back off and sit down and shut the hell up. And if you don't like it, tough toenails.

Were the world to actually function the way that you would like it to, the resulting power vacuum would allow authoritarian dictators to take advantage of the weak and spread totalitarianism and socialism all over the globe. You criticize the very nation that ensures that you have the right to speak out. Have you been to China, North Korea, Cuba or Iran lately? Speak out and criticize those governments from the center of the town square in the capital cities of those countries. When they are frog-marching your goofy ass off to prison, remember that the only thing you can count on is that in America, you're free to make a boob out of yourself in public.

Stop being a self-righteous tool of authoritarianism, sir. Toolery is unbecoming."

Norman, Comedy Central is beckoning you - though I expect you'd fail the entrance exam - you have to be funny, you see . . .

Poor semiot. Whenever someone possesses a commanding grasp of history and can call wooly-headed liberals on their lies and insanity, that person simply must be a lame parody of some kind.

You and your kind can go straight to hell sir, if I may use the vernacular. This is a war against global jihadism for the very soul of Western Civilization. We are under attack from all sides. Pithy little fools like yourself need not apply for protection when they come to take your cell phone and your head.

Rick B. wrote: Gen. Petraeus won't give a positive report in September. The data won't support it. He'll give a mixed report and state that in his opinion there are elements that indicate that we are making progress, but we need to put in more effort and give it more time.

You might be right, Rick B. Time will tell. But, here's a summary (admittedly from a conservative) of how things are going:

Coalition efforts have undergone a remarkable reversal of fortune, a near-textbook example as to how an effective strategy can overcome what appear to be overwhelming drawbacks.

Anbar is close to being secured, thanks to the long-ridiculed strategy of recruiting local sheiks. A capsule history of war coverage could be put together from stories on this topic alone - beginning with sneers, moving on to "evidence" that it would never work, to the puzzled pieces of the past few months admitting that something was happening, and finally the recent stories expressing concern that the central government might be "offended" by the attention being paid former Sunni rebels. (Try to find another story in the legacy media worrying about the feelings of the Iraqi government.) What you will not find is any mention of the easily-grasped fact that Anbar acts as a blueprint for the rest of the country. If the process works there, it will work elsewhere. If it works in other areas, that means the destruction of the Jihadis in detail.

Nor is that all. Diyala province, promoted in media as the "new Al-Queda stronghold" appears to have become a death-trap. The Jihadis can neither defend it nor abandon it. The Coalition understood that Diyala was where the Jihadis would flee when the heat came down in Baghdad, and they were ready for them. A major element of surge strategy - and one reason why the extra infantry brigades were needed - is to pressure Jihadis constantly in all their sanctuaries, allowing them no time to rest or regroup.

A blizzard of operations is occurring throughout central Iraq under the overall code-name Phantom Thunder, the largest operation since the original invasion. It is open-ended, and will continue as long as necessary. Current ancillary operations include Arrowhead Ripper, which is securing the city of Baqubah in Diyala province. Operation Alljah is methodically clearing out every last neighborhood in Fallujah. In Babil province, southeast of Baghdad, operations Marne Torch and Commando Eagle are underway. (As this was being written, yet another spinoff operation, Marne Avalanche, began in Northern Babil.)

A lot of detail supports this author's conclusion that the surge is working. I invite those who think the surge isn't working to provide details explaining why it isn't.

Sparko,

"Nadir" did win. Nader did help immensely in taking this nation to the nadir of adversity and despair.

And now off to read more of those WaPo "liberals" Anne Kornblut and John Solomen, the editorial staff and Jeff of the Hume All-Stars.

You see Normie thats what its all about."You and your kind can go straight to hell".I don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut what you say or think when you say crap like that. You the big staunch individualist. I bet when the chips are down in any situation your the first person to piss his pants. That's probably why you've never beeen in the service or won't join to defend your bull shit now.

I bet when the chips are down in any situation your the first person to piss his pants.

The hell you say, sir! When the chips are down, I am tenacious. I am detail-oriented. And, if I may be so bold, I am capable and friendly when necessary but decisive and steely-eyed when negotiating a business deal. I have, according to many of the people who I have negotiated with, "the eye of the tiger" when it comes to staring down adversity and getting what I want. Hello? Would I be a multi-millionaire were it not so? You don't get to be rich by being Mr. Sweetpants and giving away the farm. You get rich by putting an elbow into the eye of your enemy and driving his screaming relatives into poverty when they try to take away what is rightfully yours. I have been there. I have walked the walk and I have talked the talk. Have you? Of course not. You're broke and confused. It must be easy to criticize me--I've won and you've lost in this life. Well, you'll get NO pity from me.

And as for "having never served," you are correct. I have never served. I graduated Princeton in 1965 and the military was not for me. I went to work for my Father and worked in sales at the defense firm that the family owned. Graduate school came later when it was apparent that my Father was mismanaging the company and when I needed to find an avenue to bail out. I made my contribution to the war effort in several ways, not the least of which was perfecting a method of spraying flammable materials from the top of a vehicle without incinerating anyone OR using expensive asbestos shielding.

And yes, the surge in Iraq is working. Generals don't lie, liberals, despite what you may have read in the funny papers. Generals do not lie.

Norman Rogers wrote: And yes, the surge in Iraq is working. Generals don't lie, liberals, despite what you may have read in the funny papers. Generals do not lie.

Your sarcasm would be more effective if you could find other observers in Iraq who were refuting the generals.

Ah, Normie and FAUX-Lib,

Back to back sessions from Krauthammer's couch at Looney Tune rates.

Norman,
How exactly are these terrorists going to take our cellphones and our heads away? Our own government is much more likely to do that then a rag-tag bunch of thugs in Iraq or Afganistan. How many years did they spend obsessing about the WTC before they brought it down? And how did that change the future of Western Civilization? If we had done nothing (not that I advocate that) what would have happened? Explain the scenario where we all go down.

Furthermore, the Iraq debacle is creating more terrorists. Where did Bin Laden get his terrorist experience? Fighting the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Where are the new terrorists getting their experience? Fighting us in Iraq.

Once again, explain to me how ignoring the terrorists (I don't advocate that) is going to mean the end of Western Civilization. England has had terrorist attacks for decades, yet they are still around.

Norman Rogers wrote: And yes, the surge in Iraq is working. Generals don't lie, liberals, despite what you may have read in the funny papers. Generals do not lie.

Your sarcasm would be more effective if you could find other observers in Iraq who were refuting the generals.

What the deuce are you on about? There was no sarcasm in my comment. The generals *are* telling the truth and liberals are desperately trying to find a way to either ignore or discredit them. General Petraeus *is* successfully denying the enemy access and control of the battlespace. We are moving Anbar province out of the sphere of influence of al Qaeda and we are denying them the freedom of movement they once enjoyed.

Please get out my way when I am posting here. I'll handle the truth--you handle your silly little fumbling grasp on the subject.

My apologies, Norman.

Once again, explain to me how ignoring the terrorists (I don't advocate that) is going to mean the end of Western Civilization.

You're right. It's not as if they wish to knock down buildings, hijack airliners and use suicide bombs to kill thousands of people. My mistake! Liberals--it's like it was September 10th 2001 every day of every month of every year since time began for you, isn't it?

Ignore the terrorists and our society becomes a place of fear and desperation. Americans have it too good. Just wait until the Jihadist masterminds unveil their newest scheme. The cataclysmic effect of it will vindicate our current leaders and lay waste to the folly of withdrawing from the battlespace. It won't spell the end of America, but it will end liberalism and its hold on the Democratic Party.

England has had terrorist attacks for decades, yet they are still around.

Really? You're confusing the Irish Republican Army with al Qaeda?

Put your diaper back on, Mr. Poopy Pants. No one wants to see you and your business crawling around in public, making a spectacle of yourself.

Aren't you liberals tired of being humiliated? One would think you'd find the decency to put a cork in it and shut the hell up.

Normie and FAUX-Lib,

A little backed up for tomorrow's sessions; would you two mind sharing the same couch? Same rates, of course.

My apologies, Norman.

You can take YOUR sarcasm and shove it straight up your ass, sir.

No more Mr. Nice Guy. That was the old Norman. The new Norman will tell you exactly where to go and how to get there.

In your case, bend over, relax your sphincter muscles and inhale slightly while magically bending your spinal column into a perfectly loose and delicate coil. Put your head into your fourth point of contact and exhale.

And you liberals can join him. Why do I have to be the only one who knows anything around here?

Morons.

Can hardly wait for the Kumbaya to break out in the mess halls of Anbar. After heavily arming the Sunnis to take out the few foreign al-Quada forces, our guys and gals can share a few quaffs of ale and sing merrily with our "new" Sunni buddies.

Geez, FAUX-Lib, after enlisting, you might be able to sit with our new "buds" and sing "Stout Hearted Men". Take 'em to the PX and pick up the tab for a few I-Pods for them, as well.

WOW! Somebody broke Norman! Awesome!

How droll..."ex-liberal" posts bullshit from a conservative blogger and pretends he's interested in good faith debate.

We're too familiar with you and your game (and your transparently, laughably bogus argumentation) to be fooled, "ex-liberal."

Norman Rogers: A Legend in His Own Mind - With a Commanding Grasp of His Own Ass (When He Can Find It)

…. People who depend on Lehrer for their news coverage are unaware of the many successes… ex-lax at 11:30 PM

This is a war against global jihadism for the very soul of Western Civilization .Norman Rogers

….I invite those who think the surge isn't working to provide details explaining why it isn't. ex-laxl at 10:51 AM

Your sarcasm would be more effective if you could find other observers in Iraq who were refuting the generals Posted by: ex-liberal on July 24, 2007 at 11:13 AM | PERMALINK

Michael Ware refuted claims of progress by the generals just this week, and he's been on the ground longer than any of them.

Next.

I get it. You and you and you get it. But Hillary doesn't get it. And neither do whoever those people are who give her highest in the polls.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I think military generals lie at about the same rate as the general population. In the same way, they are prone to self-delusion, resulting in huge costs to the people in their command.

No more Mr. Nice Guy. That was the old Norman. The new Norman will tell you exactly where to go and how to get there.

Uh-oh...the nastiest of Norman's multiple personalities has taken charge. Just as stupid, though...

Every metric shows the new policy to be a success.

1) More rubble created every day.
2) More Iraqis flee the country every day.
3) More money is earned by non-Iraqi corporations like Blackhawk every quarter.
4) Electrical power provided to citizens of Baghdad does not decline from the current level of 1 to 2 hours a day.
5) The Iraqi government refrains from disturbing the status quo with new legislation.
5) Members of the Iraqi government prepare to act as informal ambassadors of good will in any country except their own for the month of August.

Yay surge! Let's keep surging until there's peace in Iraq or we run out of troops (predicted to be in spring of 2008 by Petraeus.)

Generals don't lie, liberals, despite what you may have read in the funny papers. Generals do not lie.

And strong men also cry, Mr. Lebowski.

Is shortstop around? I'm outta jujubes.

Why do I have to be the only one who knows anything around here?

It's called fate, Norman. We would be lost without you.

[Trolling Deleted]

For once, FAUX-Lib is absolutely correct. We all must listen more to Generals Hood, Lee, and Bragg. Stay the course.

Why are you ignorant of history?

America has thrice saved the world from being dominated by:

1. Germany, Austria-Hungary
2. Germany, Japan, Italy
3. The Soviet Union

America is not "thin skinned" and America does not suffer from "exceptionalism." America thrives on being quick to take offense and America thrives on using power to force people to back off and sit down and shut the hell up. And if you don't like it, tough toenails.

Were the world to actually function the way that you would like it to, the resulting power vacuum would allow authoritarian dictators to take advantage of the weak and spread totalitarianism and socialism all over the globe. You criticize the very nation that ensures that you have the right to speak out. Have you been to China, North Korea, Cuba or Iran lately? Speak out and criticize those governments from the center of the town square in the capital cities of those countries. When they are frog-marching your goofy ass off to prison, remember that the only thing you can count on is that in America, you're free to make a boob out of yourself in public.

Stop being a self-righteous tool of authoritarianism, sir. Toolery is unbecoming.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 24, 2007 at 9:14 AM | PERMALINK

What you know about history, sir, ain't worth a bucket of warm spit. You have bought into the most reductive simplistic easy conception of American History (TM) Also the most politically dishonest and manipulative version of history. Frankly you sir, believe in history the way that communists believed in history, that it is a deliberate unfolding of Gods plan for the Universe and at its pinnicle is the end product of all history, the greatest achievement of all human endeavor - The United States of America.

You know the Germans used to believe that concept of history, that all history was a validation of the Prussian State and the German people, until two world wars smashed the arrogance out of them and proved that self justifying versions of history are just that self justifications not the truth itself.

The fact that you can't tell the difference between a self justification and the truth explains much about why you take the positions you do on this site over and over again. In a way you are a bit of a comic tragic figure. Believing in the truth of unquestionable American greatness, yesterday, today and tomorrow. Well I will let you in on a secret Norman, it is not pre-ordained. It is not inevitable and it ain't necessarily so, and the guys you helped put in the White House have done more to make America's tomorrows small than you have the ability to imagine.

People who depend on Lehrer for their news coverage are unaware of the many successes since the surge began and the improvements in conditions in many parts of Iraq.

We now bring you the many successes since the surge........

........
........
........

Goodnight.

Hey! If we lower the bar low enough - the surge will look positive!

America did not win WW2. The Soviets did. They lost 20 million, we lost 200,000. They faced hundreds of Axis divisions, we faced dozens. They were engaged with the enemy, nose to nose, in their own country from 1942 to 1945. The war never touched our homeland, except for Pearl Harbor.

We can take credit for defeating the Japanese, and for opening new fronts to take some of the pressure off, and for all the stuff we shipped to the Soviets. But it's self-absorbed to say we 'saved the world'.

Remind me to never have you on one of my sports teams, you sound like one of those guys that's always telling everyone how great he did and how important to the team he is. No thanks.

It really is a shame Bush will also take his August vacation along with the Iraqi gov.Now if Bush where a real President he would go to Iraq July 31 and say" Listen you dumbasses get of the pot,Get control of your country,I am going to roll my sleaves up and spend the entire month of August to get you people on track,So unpack your camel and let's git busy,My people are leaving Sept.1

This post was about how America has turned decisively against Bush's disaster in Iraq. Don't let it get hijacked by a grandstanding Cheney fellater like abNorman Rogers.