Family values, Bee-atch!

Am I the only one that's a bit disturbed by a journalistic "gotcha!" aimed at a politician's child?

Or is it her own fault for picking the wrong parents?

I really think this should be off-limits to all of us. We should leave the candidates children alone, unless they are actively campaigning.

I admired the Clintons for the care they took of Chelsea's privacy. This girl is under-age and clearly short at least one parent figure. It is unfair to take advantage of her.

That is ugly. If Rudy can't win over his own children, why should anybody back him. He must be one really ugly, self-centered sonofabitch.

"Am I the only one that's a bit disturbed by a journalistic "gotcha!" aimed at a politician's child?"

I think you're overstating the case a little bit. If she were so deeply private, she'd have used a little more discretion. She could have made her profile private, for instance, or never joined the group at all, instead of joining and then quitting it. Besides, it's not like she has this Harvard student bothering her along with a swarm of reporters. A few simple attempts at contact were made. If the press starts to relentless harass her, that's one thing, but so far, that's not the case.

Now, as for Giuliani himself, it's kind of hard not to feel bad for him, in a theoretical sense. As someone who is not particularly close to a few of his siblings for a few reasons, even though he sees all of them regularly, I can understand how it could be tough for Giuliani to deal with this. It's likely that not all of the bridges have been burned, so he must feel something. At the same time, it looks like he brought most of this on himself, so my sympathy only goes so far.

Uri,

She did post her comments on Facebook.

Also, I don't think this is aimed at the girl, but more a Giuliani who decided to publicly humiliate her mother.

Giuliani is a nasty excuse for a human being.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ron Jr. voted against his father out of principle and Patti out of spite.

Yes, she is a minor child, but she also proclaimed her Obama support in a public forum, on Facebook, and will be old enough to vote in the presidential election. So it isn't really "going after his kid."

This is ugly journalism. The girl plainly did not intend for it to become public knowledge that the facebook profile's author was Rudy Giuliani's daughter. As Caldwell admits, Ms. Giuliani used a modified version of her name in her profile. She has resisted further attempts to contact her. Don't complain about ugly tactics from the other side if you're going to support this crap.

I think you're overstating the case a little bit. If she were so deeply private, she'd have used a little more discretion. She could have made her profile private, for instance, or never joined the group at all, instead of joining and then quitting it.

She is 17, and did not actually bash her father, but rather supported another candidate. She should be able to state her preferences in peace. It's not her fault her old man's a candidate, and not her fault her old man's a sleaze.

Rudy won't be nominated. I think Mitty will be the GOP's nomminee. Book it. Some of Rudys dirty baggages are beginning to come out. Freddy Thompson is a fake and has no money.

Given what else is publicly known about him, I have no idea why anyone (including the wingnuts) would support the man's pursuit of the presidency. If you needed one, this is another data point about Guiliani as a human being: a member of his immediate family doesn't think he ought to be president and said so publicly.

Given that facebook is a public space, I don't think it's a journalistic foul to point out something that's there. Lesson number 2,567,234 to anyone posting personal information to the web.

Huh?

How does pointing out she is voting for someone else amount to any kind of criticism of her, least of all "bashing" her?

I can imagine it might well cause some further tension between her and her father, though that seems to be a pretty well broken relationship anyway, but how it reflects badly on her I just don't see.

If you needed one, this is another data point about Guiliani as a human being: a member of his immediate family doesn't think he ought to be president and said so publicly.

It hardly qualifies as a data point, given the abundance of real data points out there. It's quite common for young people to be more progressive, and out of synch with their elders on political matters. Why should this girl be any different, and why should she not be left in peace to work out her own politics?

I sure would hate for my daughter to have to curb espression of her political opinions based on what I do for a living.

Count me as thinking this is unfair to the kid. Facebook is certainly partially public, but not totally. Facebook accounts are closed to people not in your networks, and she obviously took some lengths (including using a different last name) to distance herself from her father.

It's quite common for young people to be more progressive, and out of synch with their elders on political matters.

Really? It's common for the children of major presidential candidates to publicly support their opponents? I had no idea.

Ms. Guiliani isn't necessarily supporting Obama. She joined a Facebook group of Obama supporters under a screenname. Perhaps she's interested, but not committed to Obama. Perhaps she just got an invitation and joined to be polite, or out of curiousity. Is there any indication she participated in the group?

I sure would hate for my daughter to have to curb espression of her political opinions based on what I do for a living.

Then you may want to avoid running for mayor of a major city...or for president. And if you do, try not to massively alienate your kids.

It seems very likely that at least during Giuliani's mayorship (when his children were still talking to him), it was explained to them that any political statements they made would be accorded big media attention because of his status as a politician.

It seems equally likely that Ms. Giuliani, who is bright enough to get into Harvard, was able to understand that advice. She chose anyway to publicly announce her support for a candidate running against her father, knowing that if this information got out, it would be embarrassing to her dad. That was her choice, and she seems to have achieved exactly what she sought.

Really, there's no getting around the fact that her coming out in favor of a candidate from the opposite party reflects a breakdown in Giuliani's parental relationship. Given what she must surely know about the political context, it's a plain act of defiance.

And precisely because of her relatively young age, and, apparently, otherwise good adjustment, it reflects badly only on the father. Had he been less of dick to her and, presumably, her mother, she surely could and would have bit her tongue on this issue out of respect to him.

I see frankly0 and I are thinking along the same lines.

The Party of Family Values again demonstrates that Family Values involves mostly visiting prostitutes, beating your wife, and then going to church.

And, no, several of Reagan's kids probably did not vote for him.

The strict father thing does not get very far when the kids turn 21. They don't want a strict father, especially one who is a nazi like Giuliani.

Then you may want to avoid running for mayor of a major city...or for president. And if you do, try not to massively alienate your kids.

We can agree Giuliani is a jerk. I certainly think he is unfit for office. But why would we want this to affect his daughter any more than it already has?

Really, there's no getting around the fact that her coming out in favor of a candidate from the opposite party reflects a breakdown in Giuliani's parental relationship. Given what she must surely know about the political context, it's a plain act of defiance.

Or it might be a plain act of a young person expressing a political leaning that differs from that of her father. She did not say "my Dad's a jerk," although I would find it odd that she did not think that. She said "I support Obama."

"Caroline Giuliani is supporting.....Barack Obama."

Says more about Giuliani than it does her.

Good for her!

If a 17-year-old is old enough to be sentenced to prison for life - and in the U.S., she is - then she's surely old enough to have a Slate story written about her.

Roger Ailes

Jeeze, way to move the goalposts! She joined a group supporting one of her father's political opponents. Speculate all you like about her level of motivation; the fact is she did it.

Or it might be a plain act of a young person expressing a political leaning that differs from that of her father.

Again, you're wrongly taking this out of the context of her father being a politician. This is not the daughter of a cop or a steelworker or a librarian.

And again, you're ignoring the fact that she quite obviously realized that as the child of a former NYC mayor and presidential candidate, her public political statements would be of widespread interest--much more than those of young people whose parents aren't in politics.

She knew it, and she did it anyway. It's hard to see that as anything but purposeful defiance.

On the other hand, one might get the sense that children aren't always the best judges of someone's qualifications for office. We look at our parents through different eyes--and look for them to have different attributes--than what we ought to be using to assess political leaders. The emphasis on the leader as "Good Father" is a disease of our society and its politics.

However, if this sort of thing kills off the potential for a Giuliani presidency, so much the better.

The only story here is Slate's bad judgement. Yes, the internets blur the line between private and public, but Facebook (in particular) is not the same kind of public as going to a candidate event or sticking up a lawn-sign.

Why do you presume that all of Reagan's children voted for him?

I don't know if the Facebook page on Caroline can be read as an endorsement of Obama, or if what a minor child of a candidate thinks should become a campaign issue.

That said, it's interesting that those who seem to know Rudy best (his family and former colleagues) are not supporting his candidacy. The man seems to have a gift for burning bridges. He's very un-politician in that regard, and he appears to have a messier personal life than anyone almost anyone who has been elected president before.

The guy who has the best family story, like him or not, is Romney. He's got other problems in the eyes of Republican voters but with his lead in the Iowa polls and money to burn, I think he'll wind up with the nomination.

Facebook (in particular) is not the same kind of public as going to a candidate event or sticking up a lawn-sign.

Yeah, after all, political candidates have avoided Facebook like the plague... [eyeroll]

Excuse me, folks, but are you guys really discussing the political opinions and motivations of someone who's not even old enough to vote? Really?

Kind of silly, don't you think?

Kind of silly, don't you think?

It would be...if the complete disdain of a child for her candidate father weren't likely to have a noticeable effect on the "family values" voters said father is attempting to woo.

Sorry, when you are running as the standard bearer fo the family values mafia, you need to get your own family in line. Pay them off, whatever. But Giuliani is such a turd that his own kids hate him. That's because he treated their mother like shit.

I say we ignore what the Presidential Kids do until the become adults.

The facebook/myspace/... phenom is such that people could just join to be polite and to keep others from thinking they are declining an invite. And it may be she's rooting for Obama because she thinks that will in the long run cause both Obama and Hillary to spend more and so lose to her father. Who knows? Who cares?

A month or so ago, Rush/O'Lielly reported that John Edwards' 9 year old daughter picked a Hillary button. And there's Chelsea and Amy. I say people should lay off kids.

There are a couple of things going on here.
One is the well-known story of Giuliani's kids being not too happy with him. His son has given public interviews about this. They didn't like the way Rudy treated their mother and how he choice to divorce her, (by announcing it a news conference). Rudy allowed his divorce lawyer to wage a page 1 smear campaign against their mother like and it more than the divorce is probably the reason they have frosty relations with Rudy.

The other less known story is that Caroline seems to be renouncing Giuliani's racial history. Rudy has a long troubled history with black folks. Black New Yorkers refer to him as a straight out racist. He froze most black elected officials out of City Hall, he slandered Patrick Dorismond (and broke the law) by unsealing Dorismond's juvenille record after the unarmed Dorismond was shot by undercover cops. Rudy argued I can't slander him he's dead.
Rudy's own campaign produced a vulnerability study that showed Rudy had a problem on race and in fact, was part of a PBA protest against civilian oversight of the Police Department that turned into a riot. Racial epithets were used. A black City Councilwoman was called a "n****" and prevented from entering City Hall by off duty cops. It turned out to be a very ugly day. Giuliani never spoke out against it.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/giuliani_vulnerability.pdf
He kept City Hall virtually free of black faces in a city that has the largest black population in America

SORRY, DAD....Ronald Reagan had a famously rocky relationship with some of his children, but presumably they at least voted for him when election day rolled around. Not so for Rudy Giuliani. Slate reports that Caroline Giuliani is supporting.....Barack Obama. —Kevin Drum

Like it matters. Giuliani never had a chance.

Kevin is being a bit presumptuous. Reagan's cretin daughter probably voted for an Eagle band member!

I wouldn't be surprised if Ron Jr. voted against his father out of principle and Patti out of spite.
Posted by: Grumpy

At the very least the two of them didn't vote in presidential elections.

On the other hand, Michael's a complete tool and much more conservative (as in full-on bat shit crazy conservative) than was his father.

Now I'm not very familiar with Facebook, but am I reading that right?

Does it say under her picture "Poke Her!" ???

Is there liqour in the front?

Alejandro--
"Poke" in facebook just sends an e-mail to the recipient saying "You've been poked by ...."

It's just a hello. Can turn into a nuisance (sometimes there are "Poke the opposing quarterback" drives with the intent to annoy, but it's not sexual.

As for joining a group, all it means on FB is that you clicked a button. Some people belong to 100s of groups. It doesn't necessarily imply any commitment, certainly not of time or money.

Ronald Reagan had a famously rocky relationship with some of his children, but presumably they at least voted for him when election day rolled around.

Kevin thinks that Patty "roadie for the Helen Caldicott Show" Davis and Ron "liberal, registered Independent" Reagan voted for their father?

During the years that Reagan was in office, both of them had to be dragged to the White House for photo ops and shamed into doing it by their father's handlers.

the father-son ballot I'd be most interested in seeing is Pappy Bush's 2004 ballot. By that time he knew his son was a complete screwup.

the father-son ballot I'd be most interested in seeing is Pappy Bush's 2004 ballot. By that time he knew his son was a complete screwup

Perhaps, dreaming of the second term of which the unappreciative peasants of America robbed him, he wrote himself in.

Yeah, after all, political candidates have avoided Facebook like the plague... [eyeroll]

Way to miss the point [sigh].

Facebook provides users a degree of privacy. It always has, because it started life as a relatively enclosed online environment for college students, as opposed to the wide-open MySpace.

The only way this story broke was because, I presume, someone at Harvard noticed it. (The Slate report comes from a reporter at the Daily Crimson.)

It's not as if she was posting on RudysKidsForObama.blogspot.com.

And on top of that, as has been mentioned, Facebook group memberships shouldn't be extrapolated into some political story. That is, unless you're a really fucking lazy journalist.

Look, we had this shit before with Alan Keyes' daughter. It wasn't right then, and it's not right now.

The ungrateful little wench! And to think she would stoop so low to do that, after all the character-forming neuroses and spine-building public humiliation she and her brother have both gotten from him ...

I read Patti Davis's memoir -- The Way I See It -- and recall her story about the first election day, and that long, slow pause in the voting booth, and that she did not cast a vote for President.

ahem: "Look, we had this shit before with Alan Keyes' daughter. It wasn't right then, and it's not right now."

I'm sorry, but most politicians use their families as political props constantly, and have done so from time immemorial. Look at Mitt Romney and his family, for crying out loud! That has to be the most ham-handed bit of political scenery-chewing I've seen in quite a while.

And lest my fellow Democrats get too comfortable, let me remind them that our party's current presidential candidates aren't above putting their families on public display at their own dog-and-pony shows whenever it suits them, either.

I sincerely wish that politicians wouldn't do this, for the simple reason that a politician's wife / husband / ex-wife / ex-husband / daughter or son / stepdaughter or stepson / mother / father / mother-in-law / father-in-law / pet dog is not the one seeking or holding the office -- the politician is. And that's where our focus should properly be.

While what happened to Rudy Giuliani's daughter Caroline is truly lamentable, the GOP back during the Clinton administration really made politicians' family members fair game in a very nasty business -- and never more so than when Republicans applauded and laughed collectively while its favorite media mouthpiece, Rush Limbaugh, went on national television and mocked 12-year-old Chelsea Clinton as "the White House dog", before proceeding to compare the then-gawky-looking adolescent girl to a car's hood ornament. Nary was heard a public reprimand or rebuke of Rush from any GOP public official over what was a still-callous and shocking public attack on a family member of a politician -- and on a child, to boot.

Fuck the GOP's hypocrisy and double standards! These now-put-upon Republicans really need to quit their belly-aching and whining, and best start realizing that they reap what they sow. They simply can't have it both ways anymore, because we're not going to let them.

If you can't take it, then don't dish it out. And always be prepared to return what is given to you, as circumstances might dictate -- and in spades, if necessary.

Yes, it's really that simple -- so simple, in fact, that most of us learned variations of the classic Golden Rule in childhood, and such lessons have remained fundamental components of our ethical foundations 'til the present day.

Aloha.

She is 17, and did not actually bash her father, but rather supported another candidate. She should be able to state her preferences in peace.

Commenting on someone's public statements is not a breach of peace.

Anyone who makes public statements in a free society invites those statements, and their source, being discussed.

Look, we had this shit before with Alan Keyes' daughter.

In the case of Keyes, "this shit" took the form of him claiming all lesbians and gays were unchristian, unnatural, plagues on society, dangers to children and disgusting freaks of nature (I can't recall his exact words, but am fairly certain that my language here is more temperate than his was), and then dramatically kicking his daughter out when she came out to her family. And then telling reporters who asked about it that he had no regets about renouncing his own child.

Are you seriously claiming that it was the public discussion of this that victimized her?

Why is everyone (or even anyone) assuming that the daughter is upset at this publicity?