While talking with my friend on her iPhone last night, she accidently presse dthe "mute" button, which was pretty easy to do, apparently. This made me think that the call had dropped (we both have AT&T). Maybe Tobias mistook dropped calls for accidently pressing the mute button...

I don't think anyone ever thought you would buy an iPhone, Kevin, regardless of what the reviews were.

PRAISING WITH FAINT DAMNS....

I invented that phrase, years ago, as a way of describing what "serious" administration "critics" did.
Friedman was a good example at the time.
But if you made it up, well mediocre minds and all that.

I'm just happy to see it used. I thought it was pretty clever at the time.

I don't know why the hell they teamed up with AT&T.

It's just as well- I really don't need a $600 phone.

> and fails miserably at its primary
> function of making telephone calls

To be honest _all_ current cell phones fail miserably at their primary purpose of making phone calls, with voice quality that would make Bell & Watson blush in embarrassment. But since we now have an entire generation which has been raised on very poor quality digital cell phone voice quality and connectivity problems the knowledge that this is actually very poor service by historic Bell standards (and even the early days of Motorola analog cell phones) is being lost from human experience.

Cranky

I dunno, my Samsung phone works just fine and I rarely have dropped calls.

Can you hear me now?

Was just talking with a friend about his iPhone (which he loves) and his service (not so much). He said the only reason AT&T can claim the "fewest dropped calls" is that too often calls don't go through at all. I've found that to be the case myself.

They don't call AT&T the Death Star for nothin'.

the iPhone is expensive and fails miserably at its primary function of making telephone calls, but other than that it's really great.

You wouldn't have all those problems if you'd dump your PC and buy a Mac....

I don't know why the hell they teamed up with AT&T.

Because they were the only one's willing to put up with Job's BS.

But since we now have an entire generation which has been raised on very poor quality digital cell phone voice quality and connectivity problems the knowledge that this is actually very poor service by historic Bell standards (and even the early days of Motorola analog cell phones) is being lost from human experience.

Agreed. Anytime I hear some 20-something brag about not having a landline, I laugh. I keep my landline precisely because there are times when I still want to be able to hear what someone really sounds like. I'm just old fashioned that way.

Seriously, they cost $600? What kind of moron spends that much money on a phone?

I don't know why the hell they teamed up with AT&T.

Because their only other choice was T-Mobile, which doesn't have nearly the coverage area that AT&T does. Those are the only two companies in the US currently supporting GSM phones. (And the phone needs to be a GSM phone if they're planning to market it anywhere outside the US and Canada, which I am sure they are.)

But does the iPhone get Tobias chicks, or dudes? I think I read Tobias is a Wall Streeter, so he surely has a Blackberry and whatnot. So the phone is just another ego gadget right? (Not that there's anything wrong with that, I've bought more car than I need once, fer instance). And if you're making hundreds of thousands/yr., why not drop a few hundred for a phone?

Just sayin, how it works isn't really the point, is it?

Designer electronics drive me nuts. I hated the iMac, not just for being a mac and thus a really expensive paper weight, but also because so much time and energy was wasted on trying to make it "cute."

Think about how much cheaper and better the computer would have been had they not pent what must have been millions on the process of designing a stupid egg shape.

But people are retards so they bought it. People would rather have a computer that looks nice than one that, say, runs software.

Apple has become the ultimate metaphor for style over substance.

A good rule of thumb: don't comment on something that you have no hands-on experience with because you'll almost always sound...uninformed (to be polite.)

Just sayin, how it works isn't really the point, is it?

You hit it on the head. The iPhone is primarily a piece of techno-jewelry.

People will wait in front of stores for two or more days in order to obtain material bragging rights by being the first to buy new gadgets, but they will not bother to stage a sit in at a war politician's office or disrupt the war effort or bother going to Ames, Iowa and raise the accusatory finger at hard core Republicans gathering to vote for the next presidential war pig. They can't afford to lose their jobs that pay for all of those monthly fees they have tethered to themselves.

If he switched carriers when he got it this review is pretty worthless.

Dropped calls and short battery life are symptoms of a weak signal.

Uh-hem: "dropping a lot of calls" ≠ "fails miserably at its primary function"

As an attempt at snark.. it fails miserably. As sophomoric hypberbole is succeeds brilliantly. Your reasoning for trashing the iPhone applies to any phone on the pathetic AT&T system.

Not an iPhone owner nor do I plan to be one.... at least until 3rd revision and on a different carrier.

I added my son to my Verizon family plan yesterday. His LG phone cost $50 (after the rebate) and Verizon added another $10 per month to my policy, including unlimited text messaging & pic download. No internet after the first month.

Betcha AT&T & Apple can't match that. And what's the point of buying an iPhone if you don't have internet service? How much does AT&T charge for internet service? Verizon charges $15 per month per phone for VCast.

we now have an entire generation which has been raised on very poor quality digital cell phone voice...
Likewise for digital video. Funny how my satellite provider keeps adding channels without launching more satellites. But it does make people's faces look smoother...

Big Brother calling: I can hear you now!

Faint Praise Example: Hillary Clinton is sounding more and more presidential every day...just like George Bush.

Every cell provider sucks in some part of the country. AT&T is fine where I live, but sucks in other places. My wife has Sprint, her service is terrible in lots of places in L.A. where we live, but sometimes she gets great coverage when we travel to the Midwest. And so it goes, bouncing back and forth between her service being better than mine and vice-versa depending on our current location.

Point is, snarkiness doesn't actually prove a real point. The iPhone is no worse at it's "primary" function than any other cell phone you can buy. That is, it's variable depending on where you live. But people don't buy a $500 iPhone just to make phone calls - you can get a plain vanilla phone for FREE for that. The point of the iPhone is the other stuff it does IN ADDITION to making phone calls, which is what makes the price worthwhile. For me, replacing my Treo and my iPod nano with an iPhone has been more than worth the money I spent, considering the Treo cost me $400 when I bought it 2 years ago, and the iPod was $200. I sold both on eBay to recoup some of the cost, and I'm quite happy with the result.

Look around - lots of Treos and Blackberrys and Sony phones cost nearly as much and sometimes more than an iPhone, but only the iPhone gets the "huh huh it costs money heh heh" commentary. Why is that?

Seriously, they cost $600? What kind of moron spends that much money on a phone?

What kind of [insert_consumer_good_of_choice_here] do you have?

Why not buy a used [insert_similar_crappy_cheap_ass_consumer_good_of lesser_quality_here]?

Believe it or not, there are those that actually want to enjoy their interaction with their electronic devices and happy to pay a premium for it.

Why the hell do people spend so much money on a BMW 760Li when a Yaris would provide the same function at 1/10th the price (not to mention much easier to park!)

Design matters.

And what's the point of buying an iPhone if you don't have internet service? How much does AT&T charge for internet service?

Not an iphone user but I understand it picks up wifi. If i was a wealthy a-hole in an area with wifi and a good AT&T signal, I'd probably get one. If I was a wealthy a-hole in rural alaska, probably not.

This comment thread just has to win an award for the staggering amount of ignorance on display. I nominate Tlaloc's post (iMac = paperweight; industrial design = waste; assuming that a substantial portion of the cost of an iMac is due to its not being a beige box with absolutely zero evidence; UI design counts for nothing; asserting, sans evidence, that the Mac has "no software"; the list goes on) as emblematic of the knee-jerk, consumer, counter-reaction that has spread among a contrarian group of intellectuals that have never actually used an iPhone. I don't have one, but to suggest that they represent style over substance is just plain idiotic.

I don't know if the BMW -Yari analogy is particularly apt for the spectrum of electronic devices out there. The Yari has a recognizable steering wheel and is powered with gasoline.

"Apple has become the ultimate metaphor for style over substance."

As a PhD student in Computer Science, I can tell you this is nonsense. My mac runs a BSD-based Unix with a full set of standard development tools. And, when I'm not compiling my thesis project, I can also noodle with iPhoto or run MS Office. Most researchers and students in my position would eat glass before going back to a Windows environment. I don't mean to talk up my line of work, but computer usage doesn't get a lot more "substantial" than what I have to do...

Given the fact that AT&T has appointed itself censor of anti-Bush comments made by rock bands I'd hope the iPhone/AT&T combination would turn off many of it's hip adopters.

Matt Stoller at OpenLeft has the latest on AT&T's apparent policy to prevent politics from ruining music.

Cranky Observer nails it.

In my home neighborhood, and near my office building, signal strength for both providers (verizon and cingular) sucks.

Along the highway between these two places, signal strength is always 100%.

However, it is against the law for me to use my cell phone while driving. Is that not Ironic?

when a Yaris would provide

I wouldn't be caught dead in a car called "Yaris."

Seriously. The brand consulting firm that came up with that stinker should never be allowed to name cars again. Ever.

I live in NYC and have been using an iPhone since a bit after it was released. My iPhone replaced a 2001(2?) sony ericcson phone so I'm in no way a latest technology guy. I've never owned a mac, I've never owned an iPod.

There are plenty of things the iPhone could improve on. The thing is, the list of things it could improve on is so much smaller than the list of things other phones would need to add just to catch up to it. Once you use it for a week I don't think it is possible to go back to the other phones out there, I know I can't.

As for dropped calls/battery life:
I've not had a dropped call yet with it, but as I said I live in NYC so there is probably better coverage here than in more rural areas.

The battery I end up charging every night. My old sony could go a day or two between charges but I was only using it for calls and I end up listening to the Iphone a lot during the day.

I think Andrew Tobias gets all the chicks he wants.

Who would have guessed that Matthew Yglesias purchased an iPhone almost immediately, but that Kevin Drum has not?

(Ann Althouse has one too!)

How many times do I have to tell you, Kevin: Drink the Kool-Aid.

It all becomes clear after you drink the Kool-Aid.

my iPhone's terrific. and I'm not a Mac guy. but it's replaced my laptop 90% of the time. seriously. the phone part is the unimportant part. (it works)

btw, all iPhone plans with AT&T (which has a 5 year exclusive contract with Apple for the U.S.) include unlimited data. and, of course, when you're using wifi..which here in NY I am most of the time...you're not even on the AT&T network.

most of you are obviously completely unfamiliar with the iPhone's features and should keep your mouths shut on the topic. its the first legit hand-held computer....and blows my Treo out of the water.

As a PhD student in Computer Science, I can tell you this is nonsense. My mac runs a BSD-based Unix with a full set of standard development tools.

Maybe you should consider that that is not really what most people in the real world are doing with their computers?

The software that the Mac lacks mostly is standard enterprise software. No one wants to port it to the Mac because there are so few companies that have standardized on the Mac.

The Mac will always be a niche product, having lost long ago the network effects war. It does a lot more for Microsoft to keep this little kid around as a "competitor" than to acknowledge that it is a full blown, fully gouging monopoly.

"Design matters."

to the ridiculously shallow? Yes it does. To adults? No, not so much. The shape of the computer is of no consideration compared to the capacity.

" As a PhD student in Computer Science, I can tell you this is nonsense. My mac runs a BSD-based Unix with a full set of standard development tools."

So your evidence that macs are substantial is that you chose to completely replace the MacOS with Unix? huh...

funny how when you gut the apple system and replace it with something much much better it all of a sudden works better. Also funny how that supports my point rather than undermining it. MacOS would be one of those style over substance things, and you wisely discarded it in favor of Unix (which is pretty much the ultimate substance over style OS, the thing is damn ugly).

Most researchers and students in my position would eat glass before going back to a Windows environment.

True, but most are also able to distinguish between OS and HW platforms.

oops, I see that Tlaloc beat me to it.

Tlaloc >"...than one that, say, runs software."

I`m curious as to which game isn`t available on Macintosh it is that you are so fixated on.

Others above have covered the other babblepoints you tried to sell so I won`t bother to waste much bandwidth dealing w/your obvious ignorance in this area. Provided I wanted to run some of the lame crapware shoveled out of Redmond I would be able to do so on my Macintosh as well as my Linux machine given the state of the art in emulation/virtualization. The Mac is also able to run almost all of the unix based software out there as well.

And so as to preempt another line of babble, I worked (in Redmond) on the development of several versions of MSWindows and have lots of friends in the software business. ALL of them admit MSWare is crapware, even those that draw their income from developing for it.

The choice of hardware/software you use is your business but at least have the intelligence to learn something about your tools.

"Life is too short to use anything but a Mac; Windows is just not a human environment." - Roger Ebert

Tlaloc,

You really should try to know what you're talking about before you speak. He didn't replace MacOS with Unix. MacOS _is based on_ Unix. They did this, oh... five years ago or so. Hell, the upcoming version, Leopard, is one of the few with Unix 03 certification. His point is that it's actually a lot more functional than you want to believe.

Of course, you seem to think that "design" = "shape of the computer" rather than things like usability, so I don't know how far we can get here.

most of you are obviously completely unfamiliar with the iPhone's features and should keep your mouths shut on the topic.

You should really take your own advice, because this is ridiculously false:

its the first legit hand-held computer.

A friend of mine has an iPhone and LOVES it. Says it's the best money he's spent on a gadget and it is great for business since he now is able to do a good deal of his internet surfing wherever he is. I'd love to have one for my business as well since being in a rural area I can either pay through the nose for satellite or stick with dial-up. This would give me another option for not nearly the cost of satellite.

I have a two or three year old phone that is on the AT&T network thanks to Cingular...I've had more dropped calls since the switch and all of a sudden my call waiting doesn't work anymore and I get stuck in some sort of limbo land when I am silly enough to attempt using it. The only way to get out is to turn my phone off. I think AT&T has figured out that I would love an excuse to get an iPhone and is making my phone service crappy so I'll upgrade.

As a first-generation device of its kind, it's bound to have shortcomings. Adding AT&T into the mix, with a lower-than-optimal data speed, hobbles the true nature of the beast.

Seriously, the iPhone is at the front of the next wave, which is "ubiquitous" computing. I, for one, would like to have a small computer that doubles as a phone. The iPhone is a very nice first step, and the problems that are showing up will be dealt with as they arise. Coverage, data speed, and price will all improve over time.

I use a Sprint cell phone, mostly as a phone, but occasionally to send text messages. Interface? Not fun! I don't even use the photo capabilities simply because Sprint will not let me download pictures directly from the phone to my computer. To get a picture on my computer, I have to overpay Sprint to email them to myself. That's stupid.

Yeah, there's a lot to complain about, but then, there was a lot to complain about with the first 128K Macintosh -- overpriced, lack of RAM, storage, etc.

But look what it unleashed. For better or worse...

As best I can make out, the basic true "innovation" of the iPhone is that it replaced a physical keypad with a touch sensitive screen. The other "innovations" derive from that, including having a larger display, as well as using two finger manipulations of the UI.

Now it's just not in any way obvious to me that the replacement of a physical keypad with a touch sensitive screen is going to pan out beyond the Apple fanatics. Most people like to have the feel of a physical keypad. Touch screens have almost always been responded to with some level of discomfort in the past -- that's why they are rarely seen in many devices including, obviously, PCs themselves. They present special problems with regard to cleanliness and correct functioning over the long haul of extensive use; they have a yuckiness factor.

Now my guess is that Jobs just didn't give a shit about any of this prior experience with touchscreens. Perhaps, for all I know, some of those obstacles can be overcome by current or future technology.

But I'm personally pretty doubtful that all that past history is not going to come back and haunt the iPod. It's just way too early to say how well these items will wear.

Ugh. Cell phones are bad enough. I would hate to have something with me that not only anyone can call me up on at anytime, but also text message or email--puke. I'll stick with dixie cups & string, thanks.

Or smoke signals.

Tlaloc, you're a terrible troll. MacOS *is* UNIX. Hence people like Matt and myself using Macs for development and systems work.

I bought an iPhone. It's principle purpose for me has very little to do with make phone calls and a whole lot with being able to access my intranet over vpn and still fit in my pocket. It's the single most useful piece of electronics I've ever purchased.

Tlaloc: "[Unix] is pretty much the ultimate substance over style OS, the thing is damn ugly"

Haha! Tlaloc finally agrees that the MacOS is the ultimate in both substance over style AND style over substance. Of course, he didn't mean to suggest this, because he had no idea whatsoever what the MacOS is. He was pretty sure, based on who knows what, that Macs were stylish, but little else. He was also pretty sure that Unix machines were very functional but totally lacking in style. Now that he knows that Macs are Unix machines with highly polished user interfaces and industrial design, what will he say?

I have an iPhone; got it as a gift. I was actually planning on waiting for the next iteration to see if they'd work out bugs/add capacity and whatnot, but I have to say I'm pretty damn happy with it. My service is no worse than it was on my old phone, and I am no longer frustrated by the incredibly shitty experience that was using my old LG. Ignoring the fact that it's pretty awesome looking, in terms of day-to-day use, I'd say it's one of the best electronic devices I've ever owned. I'm never pissed off because the controls work in a non-intuitive way; working both the phone and iPod controls (even at the same time) is easy and flows smoothly.

My biggest complaints are with AT&T (in general as a company, and specifically for their service) and the fact that it only has 8 GB of capacity. And I can see why someone doesn't want to spend $600 on a phone. But the degree to which people in this discussion are missing the sheer usefulness of this this is pretty staggering.

Oh, and one other point about the huge touchscreen display on the iPhone: it pretty much inherently requires much more battery power than other cell phones with smaller displays. (That's why one's cell phone display automatically goes dark so quickly -- to save battery power).

Thing is, battery power is one of the most important factors in cell phone design; virtually everything hangs on how that gets handled. Other kinds of cell phones will always have a major leg up on the iPhone in this respect. Other things being equal, they will be able to be significantly lighter, thinner, and smaller.

And those are issues that impact both style and usability.

I don't use mine much for making calls but everything else it can do is very cool. I always have access to the Internet, can send text messages, and its a very nice video iPod (the screen is much larger than the normal video iPod). I'm using it to post this comment.

frankly0 >"...The software that the Mac lacks mostly is standard enterprise software. No one wants to port it to the Mac because..."

Dude, stick to politics because you are in waaaaay over your head on this.

Current Mac OS/Apple hardware can run, one way or another, ANY "enterprise software" (I left out the "standard" part because, by definition, enterprise software isn`t "standard" in any way).

And, of course, this fellow, being a corporate CIO and all, has no idea what he`s talking about. His enterprise only runs 24/7/365.

Tlaloc >"...So your evidence that macs are substantial is that you chose to completely replace the MacOS with Unix?..."

Uhhh no. Mac OS X IS unix, a POSIX compliant implementation built from a combination of BSD, FreeBSD & NeXT. Much unix code runs w/o any changes (GUI extra).

Choose which tools you want to use and be smart enough to know something about them.

"First get your facts, then you can distort them at your leisure" - Mark Twain

Current Mac OS/Apple hardware can run, one way or another, ANY "enterprise software"

What do you mean, "one way or another"? By running Windows on top of the Mac? How might that possibly prove your point rather than mine?

disputo: um, I said it was the first "legit hand-held computer"...I stand by that. it's the first one that's usable...therefore it's the first one that's "legit"...

I'm a pc guy...heck I'm running Vista Ultimate at home and I'm reasonably happy with it. but for something like the iPhone...it really does all come down to the UI. what's fun is comparing it to say a top-of-the-line Blackberry..which in theory can do 90% of what the iPhone does...except that you do it 8 times as fast with the iPhone because of the UI.

also...one thing you may not know about the iPhone is that it holds an MD degree from johns hopkins...so when I get sick it can heal me...which is pretty damned important because every $600 i spend on toys i don't need for my tiny business means another month i skip health insurance...also...it picks up goalposts and electronically moves them for me...really, it's a cool thing.

I'm absolutely not a techie, but I have a ton of techie friends. I have now heard, from at least 20 separate people, developers all, that they do not use Macs, at work or at home.

These are software developers, in Silicon Valley, highly paid, etc. Hardcore database guys, UI guys, everyone. They're all gadget guys too, but none of them use Macs, nor want to. I was surprised by this, because it seems the techies commenting on blogs say the opposite... Maybe they do different things, and I don't know enough about it to understand the difference?

frankly0 >"What do you mean, "one way or another"? By running Windows on top of the Mac?..."

That is one way to do it (using Parallels, VMWare or...) OR you can just boot MSWindows w/o running Mac OS X (Intel Macs only of course using Apple`s BootCamp).

Choice !

The world works better when folks are allowed to make their own choices (and suffer from now & then).

"Let everyone sweep in front of his own door, and the whole world will be clean." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

it picks up goalposts and electronically moves them for me

Heheh. That would explain their popularity in this forum....

p.s....the person posting at 3:44 is really juvenile...

Heheh. That would explain their popularity in this forum....

Among Mac disparagers as well as iPhone proponents, yes.

luci >"...Maybe they do different things, and I don't know enough about it to understand the difference?"

Or maybe they just choose to be that way. There are many reasons folks do what they do, some decisions are made for them and some they make themselves. The decision of which operating system to use comes with a built in cost labeled "learning curve". Once a person learns (becomes familiar with) a specific OS, it is an effort to change to and/or learn another one, particularly if one constantly feels the need to be highly productive.

Ego & money are, of course, part of the equation as well.

Humans do what humans do no matter the subject area.

“Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present. There is each man as he sees himself, each man as the other person sees him, and each man as he really is.� - William James

Ignore Disputo. He's a troll.

Hehe, it's fun to read Kevin when he's even crabbier than I am.

LMAO.

Yes, ignore me.

Among Mac disparagers as well as iPhone proponents, yes.

I was referring to the popularity of iPhones. YMMV.

With the random hatred he seems to inspire, would it be fair to call Steve Jobs the Hillary Clinton of technology?

"To be honest _all_ current cell phones fail miserably at their primary purpose of making phone calls, with voice quality that would make Bell & Watson blush in embarrassment. But since we now have an entire generation which has been raised on very poor quality digital cell phone voice quality and connectivity problems the knowledge that this is actually very poor service by historic Bell standards (and even the early days of Motorola analog cell phones) is being lost from human experience.

Cranky
"

Of fscking bullshit. The voice quality on the phones of that generation was far far worse than anything now. Every aspect of the technology, from speakers to microphones to something as simple as the wires between phones was not understood and was jury-rigged.

The problem with the cell phone system today is that backward compatability and the unwillingness of the cell companies to ever do anything new means we are locked into voice codecs from the mid-80s rather than anything newer, not to mention that we are stuck with 8-bit quantization at 8kHz.
Moreover dropping calls is very much more a problem for systems with hard-handoff (GSM) than soft handoff (CDMA). Since pretty much all the systems going forward are evolving to CDMA, it will presumably become ever less of an issue.

It's one thing to complain about the real aspects of problems with cell-phones. (Codecs are not great, calls are, sometimes, dropped and, sometimes, denied). It is another to refuse to acknowledge the good aspects (noise is gone, amplitude is not a problem), to refuse to admit the problems in the older landline system (which also denied calls, though it very rarely dropped them), and to state patent nonsense regarding the eraly history of the system.

"You really should try to know what you're talking about before you speak. He didn't replace MacOS with Unix. MacOS _is based on_ Unix."

uh...No it isn't. MacOS X added some Unix functionality, it is not based on unix.

feel free to familiarize yourself with the topic:

"Mac OS X brought Unix-style memory management and pre-emptive multitasking to the Mac platform. It is based on the Mach kernel and the BSD implementation of UNIX, which were incorporated into NeXTSTEP, the object-oriented operating system developed by Steve Jobs's NeXT company."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOs

"Uhhh no. Mac OS X IS unix, a POSIX compliant implementation built from a combination of BSD, FreeBSD & NeXT. Much unix code runs w/o any changes (GUI extra)."

wait, so first you claim an identity ("MacOS is Unix") and then you claim a *near* compatibility ("Much unix code runs w/o any changes") and you don;t even realize you shot down you own argument?

Seriously if MacOS were Unix you could by definition run ANY unix code on it without modification. That's what it means for something to be itself. The very fact that you admit you cannot do this proves that at some level you realize your statement was bs.

MacOS is not Unix. It has incorporated elements of Unix in the latest version. That's categorically not the same thing. A VW bug with a porsche muffler does not magically become a porsche.

Tlaloc: You lose. Mac OS X is UNIX.

"Seriously if MacOS were Unix you could by definition run ANY unix code on it without modification. That's what it means for something to be itself. The very fact that you admit you cannot do this proves that at some level you realize your statement was bs.
"

Huhh? Tlaloc what exactly is your job? Because you do know, don't you, how insanely stupid this statement is?
Please do tell us how the one true UNIX is defined. Please tell us how this "unix code" that runs without modification is defined.
Does BSD meet your claims of being the one true UNIX? Which BSD exactly? How about Linux? Which version of which distribution? Does AIX make the grade? How about Solaris (or was SunOS the last UNIX that Sun ever shipped).

You do know, don't you, that code written for any of these OS's usually requires minor, and sometimes major, changes to work on any of the other OSs? The same is, of course, true between the different versions of Windows, especially if you accept MS' line that Windows CE/Mobile/whatever it is called these days is just one more version of Windows.

Faint damns? Is that anything like Fainting Damsels? Where's Norman when we need him?

I don't want to jump into the OS wars more than I have to... just want to point out that a simple-ass file-formatting app that I wrote for DOS 20+ years ago runs on my Widows XP machine and it's a good thing, 'cuz I lost the source around 1990. Which Mac OS lets you do that?

That is one way to do it (using Parallels, VMWare or...) OR you can just boot MSWindows w/o running Mac OS X (Intel Macs only of course using Apple`s BootCamp).

But any old way you do it, you're running a Windows license. Microsoft gets its money. As far as MS goes, it's just one more node in its domination of the desktop market. You might remember that MS sells software, not hardware. If you want to run a half dozen virtual Windows machines on a given platform via VMWorks, and buy a half dozen Windows' licenses, nobody's happier than Microsoft.

And the reality is that very, very few companies running enterprise software -- which, pretty much means any company of non-trivial size -- choose to buy a Mac so that they can have a "choice". Basically that "choice" is a choice between running software they actually use and software they don't. Why spend the extra money for no real value added? They want to run the enterprise software, and everything else is a distraction to their employees at best.

Tlaloc >"...if MacOS were Unix you could by definition run ANY unix code on it without modification. That's what it means for something to be itself..."

*yawn*

Not all versions of MSWindows runs all of the code written for MSWindows nor do all parts made for VWs work on all VWs.

No version of unix runs all code written "for unix" which you would understand if you knew anything about operating systems and software development.

Each unix implementation has been done differently. Code forked off of AT&T unix is different than code forked off of BSD unix etc. POSIX is a standard (such as one exists in the software world) to which most unix code is written hence my statement about OS X being POSIX compliant & able to run most unix software.

[ryan upthread (thanks for the Leopard note) mentioned that the coming version of OS X is one of the few unix operating systems Unix 3 certified]

Sun OS is a fork off the AT&T code tree, Linux is a fork off the Minix code tree & Mac OS X is a fork off the BSD code tree...

But of course you would have known all that if you knew anything about computer software and operating systems or automobiles for that matter & weren`t just trolling around.

"The open-source movement is a free speech movement, source code looks like poetry, but it's also a machine -- words that do." - John Gage

Oops, meant VMWare above.

thersites >"...a simple-ass file-formatting app that I wrote for DOS 20+ years ago..."

And which DOS would that be ?

DRDOS (good software), MSDOS (crap), PCDOS (derivative crap) or one of the several others (many of which, but not all, were also crap) ?

Oh, and to directly answer you question, any Mac OS (including the current OS X 10.4.x) can run MacPaint & MacWrite v1.0 which were written in 1982-83 though I don`t know why anyone would want to other than to "show off". KidPix v1.0 also still will run as well (I am sure there are other apps that will also still run from that era but I`m not really interested).

Some people still drive 1969 automobiles also but so what ?

"...playin with matches in a pool of gasoline..." - Swamp Mama Johnson

And which DOS would that be ?

Actually, any of them. Not CP/M, though. ;-)

And I am hereby slapped down for ignorance. Somehow I had gotten the idea that apps written for older Mac OS's had to at least be recompiled...

Oh and frankly0 ya got a lot to learn about corporate hardware/software behavior. First step is stop believing all that stuff you read in InfoWorld etc.

Professional IT folks do what they need to do to get the job done & the wannabes, well, they do what they always do which is flop around and whine.

Seriously

"No place is so strongly fortified that money could not capture it." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

I'm always amazed by the passion the "Apple vs. PC" argument elicits.

I wish the passion of the pro-Apple people could be bottled and used on our leaders to get us out of Iraq.

I'll buy an iPhone if that happens!

ok so nobodies going to read this far into the coments but...

i have an i-phone (someone decided to spoil me for my 40th birthday) and i have not had a problem with dropped calls. yes there are a number of problems that people are running into with them, wether their have been more than with another product i don't know but i personally am happy with mine.

there is a whole lot of spazzie love and hate generated around apple products just because they are by apple.

but they are well designed and generally fit the needs that they are built for (rasberries to the dude who was down on the egg shaped imacs)

thersites >"...Somehow I had gotten the idea that apps written for older Mac OS's had to at least be recompiled..."

Think emulation, real good emulation.

Of course I didn`t say it would be "pretty"...

"There is this special biologist word we use for 'stable'. It is 'dead'." - Jack Cohen

I don't know if the BMW -Yari analogy is particularly apt for the spectrum of electronic devices out there.

Sheesh. Sure it applies. It is an extreme example intended to emphasize the argument. Is this lost on people?

As for the spectrum of devices... yes but 90+% of it is absolute garbage.

Yep, my iMac is really style over substance. At 22lbs, and 180W maximum it certainly seems like half (or a quarter) of a similar PC. ...Yet wait, it can run two top video-hog games at once, whereas Windows XP couldn't. And expensive? Man, I'm really kicking myself having to pay $99 for the next version of the OS compared to the $299 list price of a limited version of Vista...

Yeah, AT&T service isn't so great. But then again, it isn't AT&T. I miss my land line, too.

But ya know? I don't miss SBC (aka the new AT&T) and their scummy billing practices. I was going to buy a Cingular GSM phone, but they wanted $1000 down on the account before they'd sell me a $100 phone. Yeah, right.

I'll wait for the pretty iPhone to be independent of network.

...Oh, and I can emulate most of my DOS era programs. Unfortunately, I'll need cracks for some, since they relied upon disk locking, much like the games of today.

PS: An iPhone isn't just a simple touch screen - it can tell it's being touched in more than one place at once. YouTube Parody So yes, it can do this sort of thing. And it knows which way is up.

Well, I have to say I don't know anything about computers. But I do know that people who put quotes in all their posts are really fucking annoying.

DoubtingThomas at 7:32 PM: I'll buy an iPhone if that happens!

I'll buy two of them. Or should I say "two of them."

"I don't know why the hell they teamed up with AT&T."

I can't explain how I know this, but my understanding is that it was Verizon's contract to lose until they went out of their way to lose it.

The iPhone has an awesome GUI that makes it fun to use. If you have a simple call-making cell phone to talk at length with then the very usable internet/text messaging/emailing device. If you really need to make phone calls & you don't want to use a blue-tooth or tethered earpiece & don't want two phone lines, then you shouldn't buy one. There are enough people who will give Apple their huge profit-margin on each unit sold that they will succeed. If this pisses you off, then that's on you.

I've had very few problem with mine, though I'm far from a power user. Dropped calls happen occasionally, though not more than my previous phone with AT&T. Email is clunky and that's about the only feature I'd fault Apple for (from my own personal use), I would like to see a little more integration with the Mac OS though but I'm assuming that will happen with the new Mac OS later this year. Data download is okay and as long as you aren't texting a 100 times a day you won't get a 52 page bill as it appears some folks are whining about. Love mine, the hard part now will be resisting the upgraded versions for a few years so I get money's worth from this one!

We can always install a telescreen in your home, office and business for free.

It's not the phone it's the infrastructure for mobile phones in America that is to blame. When it comes to computers and the web, the US is pretty far ahead of most places.

But when it comes to mobile phone technology, for some reason the US is years behind. Most colleagues who've returned to or been transferred to the States form Asia find that this is one of their biggest problems.

In Asia you use mobile phones continuously and in a supposedly backward place like Bangladesh, mobile pohone coverage of a reasonable standard (98%) is expected within the next five years. The same for landlines is not expected to materialise at all.

Travelling to Japan always used to be a problem as they were operating CDMA as opposed to GSM, but with the advent of WCDMA on most 3G phones this has been resolved. And in Japan they've been weblinked and TV capable for a long time.

I've got both a blackberry and an iPhone. Calls on the blackberry sound somehow muffled or garbled. When both of us in our group are using our blackberries we have a hard time understanding each other. The iPhone sound is much clearer.

I haven't had a problem with dropped calls and I've been traveling coast to coast twice with it so far. The battery has been holding up well. I've yet to get below about 30% remaining on the battery.

I've never used anything on a cell phone except the phone part because it took too much effort to figure out the functions. It wasn't worth it. The iPhone is a breeze. I love being able to use google maps to find restaurants, hotels and such while traveling. If you drop in to a Panera Bread or similar place you can switch to using WiFi quite easily.

The cost of the iPhone is not that high, it is just that it is an up front cost. A site I saw compared the cost of the iPhone to the Motorola Q. The Q was just $99 but over the two year life of the contract the Q would up being $200 more than the iPhone because the contract was cheaper. It is $60 a month for 480 minutes, 200 text messages and unlimited data.

"Seriously if MacOS were Unix you could by definition run ANY unix code on it without modification"

So in order to get to your desired result (MacOS is not Unix) you were forced to go all the way to "NO
system is Unix". Pretty nifty demolition of your own trollish argument.

The phone is the primary function? Could have fooled me. My main gripe with mine is that they should have come up with a different name.

But even so, I have not had a dropped call yet.

If they had come out with the combo iPod-Internet device first, I would have bought that. As it is, the phone is a nice add-on to the web browser-email handler - slideshow viewer- music player - doc reader, etc.

And contrary to my fears before my purchase, the web surfing on EDGE is very tolerable. Sometimes I don't bother to switch to WiFi even when I can.

It is much more than a matter of style. Doesn't take more than 5 minutes to demonstrate that on any Apple product.

I have made the car analogy many times - I don't think anyone is wrong to buy a nicer car than they really need - why the abuse for buying a device like this?

I used to be a software developer on unix and linux platforms. The unix base of OSX allowed me to open up a terminal window on my MacBook and do configuration management functions and compilations of all my code right on my laptop, something my co-workers with their Windows laptops envied. I could not run the code since it was highly specialized to its intended platform (graphics cards, special flight simulator hardware i/o etc), but the MacBook let me do everything right up until hardware/software integration.

Then at the same time I had all the functionality of OSX for word processing, spreadsheets, email, etc.

No way will I ever buy a computer without that versatility.

Chumming the waters today, Kev?

Admit it, you're dying to buy an iPhone and you hate yourself for it (grin)

I have an iPhone and I love it. My old phone was a piece-of-crap LG from five or six years ago, and in the communication wars it's been like upgrading from a rock to a Glock.

I've dropped exactly one call in the time I've had the phone. I do wish that it had more than 8G of drive space, and the custom headphone jack is a pain, but other than that, zero complaints.

That said, people out there are free to buy different things if that's what makes them happy. Free market, and all that. Me, I wouldn't give it up until you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

to the ridiculously shallow? Yes it does. To adults? No, not so much. The shape of the computer is of no consideration compared to the capacity.

Huh?

Design, applies not only to physical casing/look, but UI Design, Software Design, implimentation DESIGN.

Here's a nickel, go buy futures in CLUES.

"Paul Carton (ChangeWave Alliance) submits: The results are in from the latest ChangeWave Alliance survey of 74 Apple (AAPL) iPhone owners – including what these early adopters like best and dislike most about the new multifunction device. We also asked 3,000 non-owners about their future cellular purchase plans.

The Alliance survey was conducted July 18-25, 2007, less than a month after the iPhone’s release – and the findings are good news for Steve Jobs and company.

Better than three-in-four (77%) owners report they are Very Satisfied with their Apple iPhone and another 15% say they are Somewhat Satisfied, for a combined 92% Satisfaction Rating – the best we’ve seen for a cellular phone device.

To put this in perspective, in our most recent consumer cell phone survey we also received satisfaction ratings on the other leading cell phone manufacturers, and the next closest competitors to the Apple iPhone in terms of customer satisfaction were RIM (RIMM) (50% Very Satisfied) and Sanyo (SANYY) (48% Very Satisfied)."

Tlaloc wrote:
"So your evidence that macs are substantial is that you chose to completely replace the MacOS with Unix? huh..."

Oh my God. You are far, far dumber and ill-informed on what you speak than anyone else on this thread.

You are aware that Mac OS X is BSD UNIX, right?

And that Mac hardware is practically identical to high-end PC hardware? That Windows can run unmodified on an Apple machine these days - even at the same time as the Mac OS?

Why is it that every Mac troll on threads like this (including Kevin, unfortunately) is so poorly informed about Macs and computers in general as to be more ignorant than the typical groundskeeper?

Foign >"...more ignorant than the typical groundskeeper?"

Oh oh, when I first read that I "saw" grasshopper instead of groundskeeper

Obviously I need to be more careful which fantasy storyline I`m comparing things to

"In the future, we will all drive standing up. In the future, love will be taught on television and by listening to pop songs." - Talking Heads

Obviously I need to be more careful which fantasy storyline I`m comparing things to.

Mmmhmmmm. Wouldn't mind getting a look at your costume box, either.

I wonder how many posters are still using rotary phones. After all, it is only a "style" difference.

I would imagine that ATT concentrated on covering the most ground, but that required covering it lightly. Therefore more dropped calls.

I was in Georgia when iPhone launched. There was a guy there intent on buying one if coverage was possible. This in a place with only two paved roads. Pretty good marketing, I'd say.

Not our Georgia, the other one.

"Praising with faint damns" is the funniest thing I've heard lately. Kevin, Moose, I'll give you joint credit for it. Wish I'd thought of it myself....