Well, it's good they have the majority so they can restore checks and balances...

Fucking sacks of shit. Which blog is it that's exploring the primary challenge landscape? I gotta get back there and read it more closely.

Firedoglake has been breathing fire about primary challenges.

I am nonplussed.

According to the Washington Post, Senate Democrats, Bush and Republican Leadership Reach Consensus on Spying Legislation grants legal immunity to telecom companies that assisted in past eavesdropping.

Read more about the implications of this and how to voice you displeasure.
Jay Rockefeller And Senate Leadership Are Traitors To The Constitution And Country.

Nancy Pelosi's e-mail address is: sf.nancy@mail.house.gov.

Since she is our majority leader, I know she would be happy to hear from each and every one of us. I just sent her off a cordial little note.

"You don't have to be ahead!
You just have to - BEAT - THE - SPREAD!"

While such a cheer might be appropriate for the Notre Dame faithful when their Fighting Irish face off against arch-rival USC in South Bend, it sure makes a damn sorry battle cry for the majority Democrats in Congress.

I have recently sent letters (real ones - by snail mail) to Pelosi and Harry Reid saying that I will not give one nickel to the Democratic Party until they hold Bush and Cheney accountable for ONE THING - ANYTHING!! They have allowed these toads to literally get away with murder. It is beyond despicable. The Democrats do not deserve majority status, if this is how they behave, trampling on the Constitution.

On the Iraq front, America’s occupation of Iraq drives al-Qaeda recruiting effort, Mission accomplished, Georgie!

This is why I'll never vote for another Democrat in my life. I tried that in 2006, and it didn't work. These people are all corrupt, bribe ridden traitors who should be put up against a wall and shot in the back of the head.

Sometimes you feel like you have to bow your head, defeated and hopeless, powerless to convince our representatives to represent us. They gave away what made America good, turned us into just another victory-without-principle-or-honor bad actor of a state, and never looked back. And no one but us cared.

Shortstop, that's just the thing. plenty of people care, our representatives have just decided that they don't give a fuck what we think. I'm really starting to wonder how this ends in any way but violence.

No, Soullite, if enough people cared--if enough voters turned American Idol the fuck off, picked up some actual current events knowledge and spoke up the way we have, Congress wouldn't have been able to ignore us all. I bet not two of 10 people could even tell you what FISA is or what this is about. Good luck getting anyone off the couch to join in the revolution.

Thus the republic was lost.

It looks like House Democrats have caved on the NSA spying bill.

Imagine my surprise.

I bet not two of 10 people could even tell you what FISA is or what this is about.

Thank you, "liberal media."

Senate Democrats and Republicans reached agreement with the Bush administration yesterday on the terms of new legislation to control the federal government's domestic surveillance program, which includes a highly controversial grant of legal immunity to telecommunications companies that have assisted the program, according to congressional sources.

Sons of bitches.

I, too, told a Democratic fundraiser this weekend that they weren't getting another thin dime from me until they started performing.

Apparently this response was anticipated, because he came back with, "Would you rather see Republicans in power?"

My response was that I wasn't going to reward the Democrats for voting like Republicans.

Can Congress unilaterally negate the 4th Amendment? Sad. Can this be litigated and brought before the courts, eventually forcing a SCOTUS review?

We're long past "last straw" for me.

When I look at the positions that the Democrats have taken I realize that supporting the Democrats is simply not an option,

The war: the Republicans may be worse, but I simply don't agree with the Democrats here -- the war was illegal, is illegal, and continuing the occupation only continues the crime.

Civil liberties: the Democrats don't give a rat's ass about your rights. This telecom bill was a clear case of an industry breaking the law, assisting the President in breaking the law, and here are the Democrats as accomplices.

Tax policy: my Democratic representative wants to get rid of the estate tax, She is supported by the state party, DailyKos and other bloggers. (She is also pro-war. So tell me, why would liberal bloggers like her? Oh yeah, she's a Democrat.)

Issue after issue, the Democrats have moved so far to the right that I simply don't recognize the party. The party is going on record in favor of government snooping, endless war and blatant criminality.

To me, the Republicans AND the Democrats are the opposition party.

"Whew, it looks like the Dems do NOT want to see themselves being blown up by Islamic terrorists who were not acted upon in 2001. They have preserved the Bill Clinton intiated program of wiretapping."

Hey Orwell, are you sure that internet spying didn't start with the president BEFORE Clinton (that would be Bush I)?

To me, the Republicans AND the Democrats are the opposition party.

Posted by: Dicksknee

And the MSM's chief job is to make sure that people who feel as you do NEVER get organized against this greed and insanity.

What kind of country is this with Ron Paul being the only one to stand up for the Constitution?

Slanted Tom, actually I'm part of the media -- and I disagree. The role of the media is to make money -- the same as your local drycleaner.

Therefore, they will always act in THEIR self-interest. The media wants guantanteed profits (through consolidation leading to the building of monopolies) and will support anyone who helps they achieve this goal.

The goal of the media moguls is not to get you to vote Republican, it's to get you to vote for someone who will do their bidding. No surprise, therefore, that they really don't object that much to H. Clinton. She won't call for breaking up the media monopolies (have you ever heard her even address the issue?).

With Democrats acting compliant, the major corporations of this nation won't mind if they maintain control of Congress and take the White House. In the end, they will do as they are told and keep things rolling along.

Democrats should have learned a lesson back in 1993, not to let the Republican administrations off easy by not investigating wrong-doing. Robert Parry, one of the best investigative reporters working, sums up the situation thusly:

In late 1992, Congress also was investigating (George H.W.) Bush’s alleged role in secretly aiding Iraq’s Saddam Hussein during and after Hussein’s eight-year-long war with Iran.

Representative Henry Gonzalez, a Democrat from Texas who had served three decades in Congress, led the charge in exposing intricate financial schemes that the Reagan-Bush administrations had employed to assist Hussein.

There also were allegations of indirect U.S. military aid through third countries, claims that Bush and other Republican leaders emphatically denied.

Lesser known investigations were examining two other sets of alleged wrongdoing: the so-called October Surprise issue (allegations that Bush and other Republicans had interfered with Jimmy Carter’s hostage negotiations with Iran during the 1980 campaign) and the Passportgate affair (evidence that Bush operatives had improperly searched Clinton’s passport file in 1992, looking for dirt that could be used to discredit his patriotism and secure reelection for Bush).

All told, the four sets of allegations, if true, would paint an unflattering portrait of the 12-year Republican rule, with two illegal dirty tricks (October Surprise and Passportgate) book-ending ill-considered national security schemes in the Middle East (Iran-Contra and Iraqgate).

Had the full stories been told, the American people might have perceived the legacies of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush quite differently than they do today.
--From Neck Deep: The Disastrous Presidency of George W. Bush

No, Soullite, if enough people cared--if enough voters turned American Idol the fuck off, picked up some actual current events knowledge and spoke up the way we have, Congress wouldn't have been able to ignore us all. I bet not two of 10 people could even tell you what FISA is or what this is about. Good luck getting anyone off the couch to join in the revolution.

Honestly, Shortstop, I used to believe this, but this congress has yanked out my heart. Even with the overwhelming opposition to this war, and even just plain common sense about the basis of this whole god damn government (you know...the Constitution), these Dems have not listened to anyone but Republicans and the media mavens who deign to tell them what 'real americans' think. YOu know, the Andrea Mitchells, the David Brooks, the David Broders, and the Fred Hiatts. The REAL Americans, who speak for 'REAL Americans' and tell the dems that the war is going just fine, just keep pushing, and don't pull out. Otherwise, you'll just be weak kneed and cowardly. Better to cave to the Republicans every chance you get, because THAT will make you look strong.

Seriously, I've given up. Nothing seems to permeate that Washington bubble because the media insulates it, and our leaders seem so set against listening to anything outside of that, letting the 'serious, 'sensible' people shape their operational mindset despite the shouting outside the gates.

I. Give. Up. Thank you, Republicans, Thank you, Democratic Jellyfish. You have officially killed my hope in the Ideal that was America.

Republicans aren't even going to praise Democrats who were "tough on terrorism" or anything. This afternoon they are going to go right back to calling them wimps, faggots, terrorist lovers, guys working for the other side, etc. Doing this does nothing but make the Republicans laugh at them for being, you guessed it, wimps.

They are gonna call you terrorists no matter what, the least you can have is your principles.

Kryptik: I think a lot of us gave up today.

Welcome to the Democrat wing of the Republican Party.

As loathsome as Nader's candidacy was in terms of its effects on the humanity, one has to concede that he was quite right about everyone in both the parties being a bloodsucking beast.

Thing is, gregor, he didn't HAVE to be right.

But it seemed like the current batch of Dems literally went out of their way to PROVE him right out of some mindless, unerring devotion to trying to project strength in ways that made them look weaker than ever, especially given their majority status now.

Democrat, republican? Whats more humiliating than having to choose your masters?

Whever I lower my expectations for the Democrats, they still manage to come up far short. A lot of people over the entire political spectrum will either have to hold their noses or sit out the elections next fall.

They are gonna call you terrorists no matter what, the least you can have is your principles.

Word.

Unfortunately, many Democrats' principles seem to be for sale to the telecoms.

Of course dems caved, they didn't want to risk losing their telcom sugar dadddy money.

Hmmm, should I vote with the telcoms and piss off my constituents, or should I vote with my constituents and piss of the telcoms?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...>/I>

I was going to change my party affiliation to independent, but now I hear Chris Dodd may put a hold on this travesty, or lead a filibuster. So I'll wait and see. Chris Dodd for President!

I was twelve years old during the 1968 presidential campaign and closely watched all of the TV coverage. Whether that had long term effects on how I view politics or discusss them I cannot say, but it has been apparent to me for a very long time that Democrats were closely aligned with the Republicans and generals and spies when it came to national security and foreign policy issues.

**

What the hell is wrong with people???? Why would you EVER, why would you EVER agree to immunity for telecoms?

I think there should be immunity for states from wrongful death suits when, oops, we discover we've executed an innocent man.

I think there should be immunity for companies that leave razor blades in chocolate bars.

Etc., etc., etc., etc.

Is mhr a complete idiot, or does he never bother looking at a thread more than once and thus has never noticed that all his posts are censored (or both)?

OMG, now we don't have to worry that at some time in the future a telecom will briefly delay, for fear of a lawsuit, handing over the critical bit of information that will build the intelligence pattern that will, of course, be brilliantly used by our "intelligence" organizations to derail a budding terrorist plot. The chance of that is plenty of reason to give up any judicial oversight on wiretapping and federal snooping into citizens' private affairs.

But OMG! Most Fake Bombs Missed by Screeners

Shriek!!! Run for closet (first grabbing a clean pair of briefs from the drawer). Strip searches for all airline passengers must be required ASAP!!!

Sane foreign policy is not an option.

Democrats do not understand that nobody really likes anything with the suffix -lite even though he/she may overtly confess to the choice when asked.

If the choice is between Republican-lite vs. Republican, most will chose Republican.

"Is mhr a complete idiot,"

Yes. Just look at what he wrote in the post on this thread.

I suspect that mhr, like Al, is a drive-by bot, not someone who actually cares about the discussion.

dodd has said he opposes immunity and might filibuster or put a hold on the bill. no more bucks for obama from me, i guess. too bad i'm not rich; it might've made a difference.

Worst. Generation. Ever.

"...they weren't getting another thin dime from me until they started performing.

... "Would you rather see Republicans in power?"
Posted by: Gregory on October 18, 2007 at 8:37 AM | PERMALINK

Apparently the Republicans ARE still in Power.
Money, Republican, DLC, Hillary, what's the diff?

Why would you EVER, why would you EVER agree to immunity for telecoms?

Because they paid you to?

I'm sure glad we have a two-party system.
And that "core inflation" is low.
And the stock market is going up.
And they fixed that subprime credit crunch thing.
And we'll never run out of oil.
And the dollar is healthy and strong, and so is American manufacturing.
And everybody has health insurance.
And the glaciers aren't melting.
And we'll all be rich and live happily ever after.

Firedoglake has been breathing fire about primary challenges.

Me too!

Wow, Polosi is a complete and utter failure as Speaker. Simply not up to the task of leadership. To let telcos off the hook, and to not require any type of FISA is a complete compitulation to Bush and the GOP even though the Dems have the majority. I say hats to the House GOP and Bush for this win and thank you finally exposing dem leadership for the no-talents they really are. At this rate, dems will be lucky to hold the house, sen or regain the presidency in 08.

I have fired off the following email to Senators
Rockefellar, Cantwell, and Murray as well as to Rep.Norm Dicks:

Did we need to send Democrats to Washington to terminate our civil liberties when the Reprehensibles were already doing such a fine job of it? The "compromise"( i.e sellout) on illegal spying and the immunization of the participating telecoms is an utter travesty. What does the rule of law mean when George Bush can roll the "opposition party" whenever he chooses to violate said law? This needs to get fixed and quick. Otherwise we will have pared the Bill of Rights down to:
1} STFU
2) When I want your opinion I'll waterboard it out of you.

If this stands: No votes, no money for Dems ever again. Ever!

Always automatically vote out all incumbents unless you can think of a good reason to vote FOR them. Reshuffling the deck can sometimes change your luck.

Puleeze. The hard left of the Democratic Party was holding out for legislation requiring a warrant of some kind whenever the Government is listening to the phone calls of a foreign target who is physically overseas, but who happens to place a call to someone in America. That kind of communication has never, ever, been thought to be protected by the Constitution, at least, not until now when the Dems thought they could somehow convince the American public that this was the dark night of facism, blah, blah.

Fortunately, the American people were not fooled, and the Democratic congressmen from moderate districts heard their constituents loud and clear.

Let's all repeat: Listening to calls placed by phones located in the US to other phones located in the US -- warrant issued by magistate on showing of probable cause required. Listening to calls placed by phones located overseas -- no warrant required, no matter where the receiving phone is. Is that clear enough?

The only close question would be calls placed by phones in the US to overseas phones and if the Dems wanted to work with the Administration to craft some kind of FISA warrant requirement for such calls, they could probably work something out.

And as for helping the trial bar pillage the phone companies for being patriotic enough to heed the Government's call for help in a time of war; why on earth would anyone think that would be a popular cause?

Thank god there's at least one working Democrat in there. Dodd just said he's putting a hold on the bill. Dollars for Dodd, anyone?

dodd's petition is here (scroll to the bottom to find the link)

Dollars for Dodd, anyone?

Done. Good work, Senator.

Yes, Dodd put a hold on the bill. Finally a Democrat grows a pair!

DBL, you ignorant slut, repeat after me:

1. Retroactive immunity for the telcos destroys the rule of law.

2. Retroactive immunity for the telcos destroys the rule of law.

3. Retroactive immunity for the telcos destroys the rule of law.

Thanks. Now I feel better.

We've got to stop saying "retroactive immunity" and start saying "total impunity." Same thing, really...

for those who are busy criticizing pelosi and reid: you can't be tougher than your caucus. the place to aim criticism is at the weak-willed dinos, not at pelosi and reid for not magically making them stronger.

like gregory, btw, i told two different callers this week that there was no chance that i would be giving money to the democratic party this cycle, no matter how much i admire how hard howard dean is working, precisely because of the FISA cave-in. My callers weren't prepared with the answer that gregory got (so it's not universal yet!) but right on to gregory's response.

as for DBL, it just amazes constantly how stupid so many right-wingers are, how ill-informed. Yes, as a matter of fact, you nitwit, it is a problem if someone overseas calls someone in america and that call is tapped without a warrant. wherever did you get the idea that it wasn't? from the bush adminstration?

Heh. There is hope. They simply need a prescription for Spinocrat!

Chris Dodd! He's stopping it!

Dodd's bodkins!

"for those who are busy criticizing pelosi and reid: you can't be tougher than your caucus. the place to aim criticism is at the weak-willed dinos, not at pelosi and reid for not magically making them stronger."

You lack understanding grasshopper. Pelosi doesn't politely ask for party discpline, she demand it, and then resistance is met with financial consequences that come from the party, and then on up the laddar of unpleasantness just like the GOP does it. Pelosi's real problem is she has no leveage on independant dems. Where as the GOP has bought and paid for each and every Rep and Sen. In the GOP, to play you must pay. Its called a politcal machine. And its still running well. Message to Dean, start playing hardball with your own people and they will fall in line.

Someone needs to tell the fake fake al what a LEADER is. If they can't lead, they are failures as leaders no matter what excuses they come up with.

Howard,

Your lack of knowledge about constitutional law is astounding.

But leave that aside. Forget the law, forget the constitution. Let's just try common sense for a minute.

Say the CIA has a wiretap on a phone in Paris. Should they need a warrant from a US court to do that? No, I think even you would agree that they should not.

Now say that all of a sudden, the person using that phone places a call to New York. I think you agree it would be ridiculous to require the CIA to hang up because they don't have a warrant. If I understand your point of view, though, you seem to think that after listening to that call they should have to get the lawyers back in DC all charged up to run over to FISA to ask for an after-the-fact blessing of the intercept.

But why? If the Government has the right to tap some Mafia kingpin's telephone, it doesn't matter who he calls, they can listen at will. So if the Government has the right to tap that phone in Paris, why does it matter who is called on that phone?

Not to mention that the notion of an after the fact warrant in this context makes no sense. Foreign intelligence - connecting the dots, as the 9/11 Commission put it - requires following threads, some of which may be gossamer thin. All the CIA knows is that the phone it has tapped is used, sometimes, by a person of interest. That is certainly not "probable cause" or even "reason suspicion" that intercepting any particular call from that phone will lead to evidence of a crime. Indeed, the CIA is not even looking for evidence of a crime. It's looking for links, connections, hints. How does that square with a warrant?

Now if you don't think it's important for the CIA to connect the dots, well, say so. Not to mention that tying the CIA up in red tape is likely to make the CIA even less effective than it already is.

Wow, DBL is still at it. Paid by the word, I suppose.