Congress usually gives in so easily one wonders some days if Congressman themselves are worried about being tortured.

I'll repeat my comment from The Carpetbagger Report:

Would he call waterboarding torture if it was done to him or to his own family?

I predict he will be confirmed by more than 90 votes, and then we'll find out he's like Gonzalez only smarter. Democratic Senators will say they were lied to.

What's one of the worst aspects of this? The fact there is no cavalry riding to the rescue. The Democrats in Congress are not poised over the horizon, ready to charge and vanquish Republicans laying waste to the Constitution. Millions of those to the left (or in the center) suffer from some vague notion checks and balances were restored in the '06 elections. Democrats are not going to impede Bush's agenda. They're not stopping rendition and torture. They're not ending the war. Get used to it. You're deluded.

Nader was right.

Now think of what would be left of democracy and the Constitution the day after.

Kevin, why don't you instead think about what would be left of democracy and the Constitution if Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood took over America and turned America in to a Sharia state? It would certainly be much worse than anything you just imagined. That is why Democrats are having such problems attacking Bush for using the Terrorist Surveillance Program to prevent another 9/11 attack. They see the American people are rallying around President Bush, General Petraeus, and the Republican Party and that is why they will have to cave in to demands of the American people to support the TSP.

If I had a seat on the Senate Judiciary Committee...

Mukasey will be much worse than Gonzales. He is much smarter and more devious. A hanging judge will become the nation's prosecutor.

This is not just bad for national politics, but it sends a signal to all local prosecutors to begin politically motivated investigations to punish honest reporting and dissent.

Last week I wanted fewer caveats from Hillary Clinton regarding torture of detainees in American prisons

Geebus, Kev, don't you ever read your comments? You were thoroughly punked by the MSM on that one.

You get the feeling the Democratic caucus is so used to the Alice-in-Wonderland principles of this administration that they can longer even see how outrageous it all is. They are useless to represent us.

Geebus, Kev, don't you ever read your comments?

Given the number of times he's been soundly corrected in them and gone on to repeat the same errors, misstatements and outright falsehoods, it seems obvious that he doesn't.

Kevin, why don't you instead think about what would be left of democracy and the Constitution if Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood took over America and turned America in to a Sharia state?

Oh grow the fuck up. We come from revolutionary stock and while you tory-bastards who would have conspired with the British then might fall in line, don burkas and grow beards and acquiesce to your overlords...the rest of us would be blowing shit up and terrorizing them. With the home-field advantage.

Ten thousand fanatics can't take control of this country. Not without your help.

Bush is not a moral man.

If I had a seat on the Senate Judiciary Committee... Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.)

My thoughts exactly. Simply ask him, as Swan wrote above, would you want to be water boarded? Would you want anyone you care about to be water boarded? Strange that none of the senators, especially Leahy, has the balls to ask the most obvious question.

Blue Girl: Ten thousand fanatics can't take control of this country

Um, I respectfully disagree. A few hundred already have.

How do a few radical Muslims go about overthrowing the U.S. government? Then dictating to 300 million people of mostly Christian/Jewish/agnostic/atheist beliefs they're now going to live according to strict Sharia law? Somebody please help al sketch out a scenario wherein that occurs. Commandeering 50 state National Guards would be a start I suppose. Seizing control of the entire U.S. miltary I guess would come next. Then demanding the entire populous turn in what is likely the largest cache of personally possessed weaponry on the planet would need to follow. Damn, three easy steps I guess.

Cue "ex-liberal" espousing torture in 3...2...

Shorter Al: I have no balls, and I hate seeing the Democrats cave because it reminds me that I have no balls either.

Um, I respectfully disagree. A few hundred already have.

touche' Thersites - what i should have said is what Steve Duncan said. But we already know I'm a lightweight where pain meds are concerned.

Ever since the reptile brain, John Yoo, defined torture down as the intent to cause organ failure, everyone & his brother can go on record as opposing it. For Christ's sake, even the President claims to be against it. Until this discussion moves from the abstract to the specific, the hearings are nothing but one gigantic circle jerk. "Are you in favor of torture?" "Heavens no. I've been against it since at least junior high." "That's what I thought. I'm glad we've established that for the record. Now where would you like the name plaque positioned on your door?"

Spare us.

Didn't I predict just yesterday or the day before we would be calling him "Mostly Malarkey?"

Bush nominees have certain known characteristics.

You're either for this nation and ALL of its laws, or you're against it. It really is that simple. Because once you sanction shredding this or that provision in the constitution in the name of national safety, you're really no better than any of the terrorists you claim to so vehemently abhor.

This is the USofA. We stand (or at least use to stand) for something. We are better than others because we do not only what is required by the law but also what is right. We claim to be a Christian nation (part of the problem, I say, but I digress), yet ignore the basic tenets of Christ's teachings. You want to wallow with the terrorists or Islamo-fascists or those who control our oil, go do it, but don't use my country, my laws, my freedoms to do it. I don't want to to live like them and I certainly don't want you to make me.

It surprises me that a nation of 300 million cannot muster a real political resistance to what are classic anti-democratic and anti-constitutional views of executive power- previously known as Despotism. These are positions that come from unambiguous authoritarian sentiments and could not be farther from the spirit of the stated principles of the United States since its founding. There are absolutely no defenders of the sacred flame. It is all ignorance, indifference and playing-it-safe politics. It is the very definition of decadence and decay. The decay comes from an antiquated and unreformed elitist political order that is unaccountable to and unrepresentative of the people, beholden to money, and gridlocked by political minorities. The decadence has other origins.

Perhaps old Ben Franklin was right:
In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.

How do a few radical Muslims go about overthrowing the U.S. government?

Well, scaring a urine-soaked Administration and Congress to cheerfully chuck out the Constitution while America watches reality dance shows is a pretty good start.

touche' Thersites - what i should have said is what Steve Duncan said. But we already know I'm a lightweight where pain meds are concerned.
Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.)

I just sent Mr. Duncan's comments to my rep with a note. I've despaired of both my senators long ago.

Steve Duncan. Beautifully argued snark. So good it deserves a post all of its own.

Regards, C

For some of us, waterboarding is kicky good fun. Well, no, not really.

But it's a good way to put insubordinate kids or cats back in line. Well, no, it's not really that, either.

Dearest hit-like-a-grrrl-and-run Al,

The islamist hordes (tm) will be invading once they've finished job #1: building a mosque on the moon. My goodness, I'm scared :-(

kicky

Whoops, kinky

Why does a blogger with a once-a-fortnight posting slamming Glenn Reynolds and/or Bill Kristol still approvingly cite Andrew Sullivan?

As for the reticence of Hillary or Mukasey to make blanket statements on torture, I think it's mostly because you guys have defined torture to include giving Gitmo inmates a high cholestrol diet.

More applause for Steve Duncan's post. And ckelly's made me smile as usual.

Once again minion, when you're ready for you and your loved ones to be falsely imprisoned and then waterboarded just let us know. Heck, we'll even throw in the "genitalia conductivity test" for free.

>"... think about what would be left of democracy and the Constitution if Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood took over America..."

ROFL.

Haven't you watched 'Red Dawn'? The Nicaraguans invaded (giggle) but were defeated by red-blooded American teenagers with guns.

Interestingly enough, the invaders called the American insurgents 'terrorists'.

Heh, imagine that.

... you guys have defined torture to include giving Gitmo inmates a high cholestrol diet.

You guys are all for trading a few liberties for the benefit of security -- as long as it's somebody else's liberties for your security. Let's sign you on for a month of Gitmo-style detention & interrogation, then see where you stand on the issue.

The reaction of public officials to the 9/11 attacks was like what happens in autoimmune diseases. We are now destroying ourselves.

Ever since the reptile brain, John Yoo, defined torture down as the intent to cause organ failure….junebug at 1:18 PM

By the way, when I email Yoo [yoo@law.berkeley.edu] with some article that castigates his complete dishonesty and anti-Americanism, I cc his dean, Christopher Edley, Jr, [cedley@law.berkeley.edu]just to rub it in.

Heheh. I like your work.

As for the reticence of Hillary or Mukasey to make blanket statements on torture, I think it's mostly because you guys have defined torture to include giving Gitmo inmates a high cholestrol diet.

Up yours, not-at-all-ex-minion. You neocon scumbags and Bush Cultist bedwetters are the ones redefining torture -- according to the Nuremberg trials, so-called "enhanced interrogation tactics" like stress positions and hypothermia definitely were torture, and even the Nazi occupiers of Norway who coined that smarmy little euphamism recognized that waterboarding was torture. And if Mukasey diagreed, he had a perfect opportunity to say waterboarding isn't torture, and took a pass.

Shame on you.

Hey, we are only torturing arabs and muslims. Since they all hate Jews, they deserve it, no.

This whole Shrub/Mukasey side-show reminds me of Humpty Dumpty: "Torture means what I say it means" with the extra-added caveat "and I'm not going to tell you what I say it is."

That said, Muskasey will be A.G. only as long as the Little Idiot, aka Bush the Lesser, aka The Windshield Cowboy is at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

And while he is our (God-forbid) Commander in Chief, it won't make a whit of difference what the A.G. thinks is torture. President-in-Fact Cheney doesn't care what any attorney not named Addington thinks. And he may not even care what Addington thinks as lot of lawyers use their skills to advocate what their clients want them to advocate rather than telling their clients what "the law" says.

Matter of fact, there is nothing, actually, that the law "says." Interpretation to suit is the bread and butter of the law.

...and shame on me for not closing the italics tag.

First off, Kevin, is that you are working under the assumption that we are still a functioning Republic, and secondly you are wishing for the good old days when we were a Republic.
I hate to be the one that pops your bubble, but we are not a Republic, we are an imperial power, now.
And like all empires in the past, we either conform to the imperial norm, or we dump the whole imperial aspirations and return to our Republic roots.
Empire or Republic, one or the other, but we cannot be both.

As for the reticence of Hillary or Mukasey to make blanket statements on torture, I think it's mostly because you guys have defined torture to include giving Gitmo inmates a high cholestrol diet.

What has to happen in a person's life, in a person's head, that he can dismiss waterboarding, freezing, rape, long-term sleep deprivation, organ damage, and chaining someone to sit in piles of feces and puddles of urine as "a high-cholesterol diet"? What kind of extreme social pathology is this? Will anybody ever do a psychological study on the backwashers who will say anything, do anything, excuse any human conduct whatsoever in the name of defending their god Dubya?

Shorter Mukasey: Quod rex vult, lex fit.

By the way, when I email Yoo [yoo@law.berkeley.edu] with some article that castigates his complete dishonesty and anti-Americanism, I cc his dean, Christopher Edley, Jr, [cedley@law.berkeley.edu]just to rub it in. Posted by: Mike

I can't figure out what Berkeley was thinking when they hired him. The only place I can think that he'd really fit in is at Tennessee with "the perfesser."

What has to happen in a person's life, in a person's head, that he can dismiss waterboarding, freezing, rape, long-term sleep deprivation, organ damage, and chaining someone to sit in piles of feces and puddles of urine as "a high-cholesterol diet"?
Posted by: shortstop

I've said before I'm anti-torture to include waterboarding (put me in McCain's camp), but that's a pile of dishonest bullshit to conflate all of those together. No one is advocating forcing prisoners to sit in their own filth. Argue the facts instead of your S&M fantasy.

By the way, Shortmoron, I've been on mil duty for the past 3 weeks and haven't had time to monitor but intermittently, but in reading the archives it seems someone came up with the moronitude that I was retired/fired from the military. Heh. Who's idiot who came up with that one?

Mr. Duncab:
"Democrats are not going to impede Bush's agenda. They're not stopping rendition and torture."

Rendition: a snatch and export terrosists program begun by the first President Clinton.

Haven't you watched 'Red Dawn'? The Nicaraguans invaded (giggle) but were defeated by red-blooded American teenagers with guns.

Wandering afield, but actually, it was the Soviets and Cubans, not the Nicaraguans (though they may have piled on, too, I don't recall -- the focus was the other two), and the teenagers didn't defeat them, they resisted for a while, many (most, IIRC) got killed, and the survivors later escaped to territory still controlled by the US.

... that's a pile of dishonest bullshit to conflate all of those together. No one is advocating forcing prisoners to sit in their own filth. Argue the facts instead of your S&M fantasy.

You'd do well to shut your pie hole & check the facts, dipshit.

Jingo: I've said before I'm anti-torture to include waterboarding (put me in McCain's camp), but that's a pile of dishonest bullshit to conflate all of those together. No one is advocating forcing prisoners to sit in their own filth. Argue the facts instead of your S&M fantasy.

Even allowing for a big dose of Jingo crazy, this makes no sense. Are you:

1) Hallucinating that my response to minion was directed at you, even though you’ve not been in this thread?
2) Posting as minion as well as SJRSM, Land Shark and your other handles?
3) Telling me no one on the right has never dismissed (my word—see above) keeping prisoners in their own pee and poop as not actually being torture?
4) Arguing that waterboarding is wrong and prisoners sitting in filth doesn’t happen--but freezing, rape, long-term sleep deprivation and organ damage are just fine?

WTF are you trying to say through the fog?

Jingo: By the way, Shortmoron, I've been on mil duty for the past 3 weeks

Me, too! In front of my couch, General Johnston is about to order troops to fall back and regroup at Resaca. How about in your living room?

and haven't had time to monitor but intermittently

I bet you haven’t, given that in the conversation to which you refer, several people suggested you were behaving way more erratically than usual—like a person in crisis--and should get checked out.

It's still good advice.

No one is advocating forcing prisoners to sit in their own filth.

Good lawd you are a fucking ignorant dipshit:

"On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they had urinated or defecated on themselves and had been left there for 18, 24 hours or more."

and

"strapped in the restraint chair for periods of two to three hours at a time, which, coupled with being overfed, led him to urinate and defecate on himself"; and that he was then "dumped, covered in his own vomit, blood, and feces, back in his isolation cell."

and

Qatani's questioners injected him with massive amounts of fluids and forced him to urinate on himself.

all of which GWB assures us does not constitute torture.

Now I'll wait for your follow-up argument that I want the terrorists to win....

Whoa... I got a notice that my last comment just got held for moderation? WTF?

Disputo--if you had more than two links in it, the mod will look at it to make sure it's not spam.

Ach... nevermind... I just realized I included more than two links in it....

Suffice it to say I included ample refutation of RSM's ignorant comment.

Well, as long as you're here, I want to tell you that my mother had me in tears today doing a great imitation of Richie pitching a fit at a press conference. Since she has a huge Southern accent, it was even funnier. She hit those high shrieky notes perfectly.

I have to have a BAC of at least 0.12% before I can do a passable RMD imitation.

I still remember Aaron Freeman's /Metropolis/ on BEZ from about 10 yrs ago where he played a clip of Daley yammering on about something or another, and invited people to guess WTF he was talking about. The answer: absolutely nothing.

Jingo: I've said before I'm anti-torture to include waterboarding (put me in McCain's camp),

If you're against water boarding, how can you be in McCain's camp since he caved to Shrub and Cheney on the subject of torture in general?

Oh, I get it! You're in McCain's camp in the sense that you'll do or say anything to get elected or, in your case, to get anyone to pay attention to you.

Wandering afield, but actually, it was the Soviets and Cubans, not the Nicaraguans (though they may have piled on, too, I don't recall -- the focus was the other two), and the teenagers didn't defeat them, they resisted for a while, many (most, IIRC) got killed, and the survivors later escaped to territory still controlled by the US. Posted by: cmdicely

Jesus! You must have actually watched the whole movie. I'm not sure if I should be impressed or appalled.

Yes, it is indicative of the moral decay of the Bush era, but most distressing to me is that the Democratic controlled Congress is going along. I don't get it. They could stop this Mukasey nomination right now, but they won't.

I guess I just never understood how craven politicians really are.

I still remember Aaron Freeman's /Metropolis/ on BEZ from about 10 yrs ago where he played a clip of Daley yammering on about something or another, and invited people to guess WTF he was talking about. The answer: absolutely nothing.

That's *always* the answer, Disputo. Sigh... I miss WhoDat.

junebug's one of us, one of us?!

Look, we can have bookshelves full of definitions of what is and is not torture in what circumstances, or we can have an AG that says we will abide by the Golden Rule - we will treat prisoners with the same humanity we would like our prisoners to be treated. I think that's what Mukasey said and it didn't satisfy you guys.
I have said several times on this blog that Bush/Rumsfeld have hurt this country with their boneheaded policies, and I think Gitmo should be closed, but I do not think two minutes waterboarding the sponser/organizer of 911 to get him to talk makes us monsters, and neither does the vast majority of the American people. If you don't like that I guess you can all sit around the faculty lounge and feel superior to the boobs you have to share the country with.

Does anyone here think minion is cognizant enough to realize he just signed off on the waterboarding of our men and women being held prisoner?

"I think that's what Mukasey said"

Well, no, actually he didn't, which is why you didn't quote him.

"and it didn't satisfy you guys."

What Mukasey actually did say did not satisfy us because Mukasey refused to rule out torture, refused to rule out the discredited theory of the unitary executive, and refused to guarantee a return to the rule of law.

"What has to happen in a person's life, in a person's head, that he can dismiss waterboarding, freezing, rape, long-term sleep deprivation, organ damage, and chaining someone to sit in piles of feces and puddles of urine as 'a high-cholesterol diet'?"

It's called denial. The dead-enders on the right have never, not once, admitted to the degree of torture that we have practiced at Gitmo and elsewhere. Remember one of our former trolls rhapsodizing about "air conditioning" and "loud music?" Or Limbaugh talking about "fraternity pranks?" The fact that we have killed people under our control (although admittedly not at Gitmo, as far as I know) seems to not bother them in the slightest.

The fact that we have killed people under our control (although admittedly not at Gitmo, as far as I know) seems to not bother them in the slightest.

I wonder how wingnuts feel about torturing and killing enemy fetuses.

junebug's one of us, one of us?!

Yup. And I'm wondering how flowerpots & a few extra librarians justifies Mr. Hired Truck Scandal's tax increase. Sorry to get all Grover Norquist on you, but there you have it. Don't get me started on the County.

You'll get no argument from me on any of that, junebug. I've posted my intention to do handsprings down the middle of Lake Shore Drive the day MHTS gets indicted. Disputo said something similar, I think.

Um, sorry, but...Mister Hired Truck Scandal???? Please explain. Thanks.

Sorry, emjayay. I was taking a break from bitching about national politics by bitching about local politics. Mr. Hired Truck Scandal is also known as little Richie Daley, and he's the philosopher-king of the place I call home -- Chicago. If you think there's a problem with the concentration of power in the White House, and if you think W exhibits difficulty in mastering his native language, you won't believe what you see at one of da Mayor's press conferences.

In (weak) defense of Daley vis-a-vis GWB, it's my observation that Daley's inability to communicate his thoughts are due to an inability to communicate, whereas GWB's inability to communicate his thoughts are due to an inability to think.

I agree personal loans