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Tilting at Windmills

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December 5, 2007
By: Kevin Drum

WAYNE DUMOND....Are you familiar with the Wayne Dumond story? Here's the nickel summary: Dumond was convicted of raping a 17-year-old girl in 1984 and was sentenced to life in prison. This was in Arkansas while Bill Clinton was governor, and for a while nobody cared. But then, after Clinton was elected president, Dumond became a cause celebre for the Clinton-hating fever swamp. (Book version of conspiracy theory here. There's always a book.) Long story short, the rape victim was Clinton's second cousin once removed, and the fever swamp became convinced that Dumond was the innocent victim of (yet another) frameup by a vengeful and drug-crazed Clinton. In 1996, after being elected with plenty of help from the fever swamp, Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee announced that he thought Dumond should be set free. Subsequently, he met with the parole board and a few weeks after that Dumond was paroled.

Two years later Dumond was released from prison, and within weeks he sexually assaulted and murdered a 39-year-old woman in Kansas City. Huckabee was horrified, but said there was simply no way he could have known Dumond was dangerous. Today, Murray Waas says that's not the case:

Confidential files obtained by the Huffington Post show that Huckabee was provided letters from several women who had been sexually assaulted by Dumond and who indeed predicted that he would rape again — and perhaps murder — if released.

In a letter that has never before been made public, one of Dumond's victims warned: "I feel that if he is released it is only a matter of time before he commits another crime and fear that he will not leave a witness to testify against him the next time." Before Dumond was granted parole at Huckabee's urging, records show that Huckabee's office received a copy of this letter from Arkansas' parole board.

The woman later wrote directly to Huckabee about having been raped by Dumond. In a letter obtained by the Huffington Post, she said that Dumond had raped her while holding a butcher knife to her throat, and while her then-3-year-old daughter lay in bed next to her. Also included in the files sent to Huckabee's office was a police report in which Dumond confessed to the rape. Dumond was not charged in that particular case because he later refused to sign the confession and because the woman was afraid to press charges.

Huckabee kept these and other documents secret because they were politically damaging, according to a former aide who worked for him in Arkansas. The aide has made the records available to the Huffington Post, deeply troubled by Huckabee's repeated claims that he had no reason to believe Dumond would commit other violent crimes upon his release from prison.

Waas has more, including copies of the documents, over at the Huffington Post. The Dumond story is well known in Arkansas and never hurt Huckabee there. On the national stage, though, it might be a different story, especially in light of this new evidence. Huckabee's got some 'splainin to do.

UPDATE: In other Huckabee news, apparently Huckabee was completely unaware of the new NIE on Iran two full days after it was released. Heckuva grasp on foreign policy, Huckie.

Kevin Drum 1:26 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (112)

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Comments

Kevin, it isn't as though this involves a money-losing land deal. Nothing to see here!

Posted by: Gore/Edwards 08 on December 5, 2007 at 1:33 PM | PERMALINK

Check out Byron York's story on NRO today about Dummond. He conveniently manages to absolve the right from all responsibility for this debacle while pinning the blame on their most hated candidate Huckabee. Neat trick if he can get away with it.

Posted by: Teresa on December 5, 2007 at 1:38 PM | PERMALINK

Really, if you look at all the details of Huckabee's pardon of Dumond, I just don't see how his candidacy can survive real exposure of those events. Huckabee comes out as an unbelievably callous, cynical, and manipulative politician, a bully, and a liar.

It makes the Willie Horton case seem like a wet kiss to Michael Dukakis. Willie Horton had only the most tenuous connection to Dukakis. But the release of Dumond could not be more directly connected to Huckabee's actions, and his partisan and religious biases and connections. The case will absolutely undermine his attempt to portray himself as a normal, "non-political" guy with decent, down home values.

Maybe all this shit flies in Arkansas because Huckabee's a preacher, and a personal connection to Christ forgives all in Arkansas.

But Huckabee ain't in Arkansas anymore.

Posted by: frankly0 on December 5, 2007 at 1:39 PM | PERMALINK

You left out the part where allegedly the Clinton goons castrated Dumond.

Posted by: jharp on December 5, 2007 at 1:39 PM | PERMALINK

The Republican primary cannot be bloody enough for me.

Posted by: jimmy on December 5, 2007 at 1:43 PM | PERMALINK

The most interesting aspect of this story to me is the fact that Huck pretty much became convinced that Dumond had reformed because he had allegedly "found God." Again, like Bush, this is faith based policy making at its worst. All you have to really do to convince the evangelicals that you're a "good person" and apparently entitled to salvation not only in the afterlife, but also here on Earth, is profess a love for Jesus. At that point, critical thinking goes out the window.

Posted by: Doug-E-Fresh on December 5, 2007 at 1:43 PM | PERMALINK

Hey Huckabee, get ready...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-409435110157342333

Posted by: RobertSeattle on December 5, 2007 at 1:44 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, bah! Who cares! So what if Bill Clinton had his state troopers castrate a man! It's not like he didn't have his wife kill Vince Foster:


While the U.S. Park Police (a unit not equipped for a proper homicide investigation) studied the body, Foster's office at the White House was being looted. Secret Service agent Henry O' Neill watched as Hillary Clinton's chief of staff, Margaret Williams, carried boxes of papers out of Vincent Foster's office before the Park Police showed up to seal it. Amazing when you consider that the official identification of Vincent Foster's body by Craig Livingstone did not take place until 10PM! Speaking of Craig Livingstone, another Secret Serviceman saw him remove items from Vincent Foster's office in violation of the official seal. Witnesses also saw Bernard Nussbaum in Foster's office as well. Three witnesses noted that Patsy Thomason, director of the White House's Office of Administration, was desperate to find the combination to Vincent Foster's safe. Ms. Thomason finally opened the safe, apparently with the help of a special "MIG" technical team signed into the White House in the late hours. Two envelopes reported to be in the safe by Foster's secretary Deborah Gorham, addressed to Janet Reno and to William Kennedy III, were never seen again. When asked the next day regarding rumors of the safe opening, Mack McLarty told reporters Foster's office did not even have a safe, a claim immediately shot down by former occupants of that office.
The next day, when the Park Police arrived for the official search of Vincent Foster's office, they were shocked to learn that Nussbaum, Thomason and Williams had entered the office. Conflicts channeled through Janet Reno's Department of Justice resulted in the Park Police merely sitting outside Foster's office while Bernard Nussbaum continued his own search of Foster's office. During this search, he opened and upended Vincent Foster's briefcase, showing it to be empty. Three days later, it would be claimed that this same briefcase was where the torn up suicide note was discovered.

I am conflicted as to whether Hillary pulled the trigger. Did they whack him and roll him up in a rug and have him brought out the side door of the White House?

If that's not the case, then my theory of what Hillary did to Vince Foster is not unlike what was done to Phil Leotardo at the end of the Sopranos--someone said "you gotta do what you gotta do" and a low level soldier took Foster out. I suspect that it was Stephanopolous who whacked him. Possibly, Begala, but he doesn't look like he has the stones for that kind of wet work.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 1:45 PM | PERMALINK

Addios, Mike.

Jesus loves you!

Posted by: JeffII on December 5, 2007 at 1:45 PM | PERMALINK

Here is the other one:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1166260682633358202

Posted by: RobertSeattle on December 5, 2007 at 1:46 PM | PERMALINK

I see Rogers has somehow gotten a day pass in spite of going off his meds.

Posted by: DJ on December 5, 2007 at 1:48 PM | PERMALINK

Nice knowing you, Governor.

Posted by: JC on December 5, 2007 at 1:55 PM | PERMALINK

I suspect the revelation of those letters (and Huckabee's certain knowledge of them) will fatally hurt Huckabee's chances to be President, because it hits him exactly where his strength supposedly is as a candidate.

But Huckabee has no one to blame but himself for what happens now, given he could have come clean about it years ago.

Posted by: David W. on December 5, 2007 at 1:57 PM | PERMALINK

Not only did Huckabee intervene to get the guy paroled - one of the the conditions was he had to leave the state. So he came to Kansas City and killed two women.

Ne won't do well here on Super Tuesday, if he survives this week.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on December 5, 2007 at 1:57 PM | PERMALINK

Get ready for the wingnut mantra that it's all Clinton's fault.

You know it's out there.

Posted by: Joshua Norton on December 5, 2007 at 1:58 PM | PERMALINK

So this week, we've had:
1. Rudy's sex on the city scandal.
2. Romney's sanctuary mansion scandal.
3. Huckabee's "Its OK, he only raped a member of the Clinton family" scandal

Quite a week for the Republicans, even by recent standards.

Posted by: JoshA on December 5, 2007 at 2:00 PM | PERMALINK

Calm down, liberals. The list of people that Clinton ordered killed so his wife could run for President isn't THAT long:
----------------------------------------------

James McDougal - Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr's investigation. Was James McDougal Murdered In A Federal Prison To Silence Him?

Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors.

Vince Foster - Former white House councelor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock's Rose law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide. Snippets From The Vince Foster Death Investigation

Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just as she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.

C. Victor Raiser II - & - Montgomery Raiser: Major players in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.

Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by Clinton as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor".

Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in Virginia of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a "Black Book" of people containing names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an aparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson - Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson died in May 1994 was found dead in her living roon with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she was going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

Bill Shelton - Arkansas state Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the gravesite of his fiancee.

Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton friend Dan Lassater died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.

Florence Martin - Accountant - Sub-contractor for the CIA related to the Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. Died of three gunshot wounds.

Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparent suicide in the middle of his investigation.

Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August 15,1993 Was investigating Morgan Guarantee scandal.

Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.

Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.

Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, Death was no accident.

Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Clinton in the trunk of a car left in his repair shop. Died when his car hit a utility pole.

Stanley Huggins - Suicide. Investigated Madison Guarantee. His report was never released.

Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena arkansas airport drug operation. Controversal case where initial report of death was due to falling asleep on railroad track. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury. see: The Train Deaths - plus some comments from a mother of one of the boys about the connection to Bill Clinton..

THE FOLLOWING SEVEN PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES / HENRY CASE:
Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck July, 1988

Keith McMaskle - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.

James Milan - Found decapitated. Coroner ruled death due to natural causes.

Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters - Was a suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. Was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD
Major William S. Barkley Jr.
Captain Scott J. Reynolds
Sgt. Brian Hanley
Sgt. Tim Sabel
Major General William Robertson
Col. William Densberger
Col. Robert Kelly
Spec. Gary Rhodes
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 2:00 PM | PERMALINK

But Huckabee has no one to blame but himself for what happens now, given he could have come clean about it years ago.

As far as Huckabee's concerned, he says he has come clean ... by pointing out that the parole board who released Dumond was mostly appointed by Democratic governors Clinton and Jim Guy Tucker.

In other words, the usual Republican whining, finger-pointing, and inability to accept responsibility for his actions.

Posted by: Mnemosyne on December 5, 2007 at 2:01 PM | PERMALINK

Norman, you're probably 6 months early with the Vince Foster story (NewsMax version). You're supposed to wait until Hillary is nominated before repeating that story and all the others. IIRC, Hillary, Bill and their minions murdered what, 100 people?

DuMond, whose castrated testicles were on display in a jar at the local sheriff's office, was clearly a victim of the Clinton mafia. Gennifer Flowers will be along here in a minute or maybe on Hardball tonight. I think she's bringing K. Willey with her to help explain why this isn't the fault of any conservative.

Good gravy, next you'll be asking Huck if he believes in creationism (hint: yes) or if he believes cutting taxes raise revenue (hint: yes).

He's wrong, wrong and wrong. Now if only the "liberal" MSM can get around to pointing this out, his candidacy will founder.

Posted by: TJM on December 5, 2007 at 2:03 PM | PERMALINK

You're missing the hidden message in these actions (much the way that mainstream America misses codewords of bible verses or Right Wing euphemisms in the president's speech).

Dumond was released because he raped a distant relative of Clinton. The message here was that it was open season on Clinton and his family. Rape or kill them, you'll be pardoned. Oh, and wink wink, they don't care if there is collateral damage in the process.

To many, that sounds like extreme and crazy conspiracy type stuff. But don't forget that these people (including Pat Robertson, who is fairly mainstream) circulated videos about the "Clinton crime family" and how they were responsible for murdering opponents and others who got in their way (never mind the facts). Remember that the Clinton impeachment started with Whitewater (allegations of misconduct that occurred before Clinton became president) and ended up being the longest, most sweeping permanent fishing expedition against a sitting president in history (and all they could pin on him, timed to coincide with a midterm election, was that he lied about an affair).

Now stop and recall everything you've seen from these people in the last 7 years. Enron. "Bin Ladin determined to attack the US". Yellow cake. WMDs. Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo. Katrina. Domestic spying. The Iran NIE.

These people not only don't care about the law, human rights, the economy, health care, or other things that impact the lives of Average Americans, they also don't care about facts or reality. In a world where they believe they create their own reality, things like pardoning rapists because they brutalized a Clinton relative really doesn't even rank on a list of the top 100 worst things they've done.

Posted by: Augustus on December 5, 2007 at 2:06 PM | PERMALINK

Mnemosyne, as if that excuses Huckabee for blowing off those letters and maintaining the pretense that he had no reason to believe Dumond would commit violent crimes upon being released from prison.

Posted by: David W. on December 5, 2007 at 2:08 PM | PERMALINK

Or why Huckabee wasn't even aware of the Iran NIE two days after it was released. Way to to go Huck!

Posted by: Pat on December 5, 2007 at 2:10 PM | PERMALINK

Some really interesting comments over at FreeRepublic.com on this (also some reasonable ones), check it out before they "scrub" this thread too:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1933491/posts

Some highlights:

"For anyone who knows the history of this subject on the forum, the DuMond issue is clearly an absolute loser for Free Republic. It is bat-shit crazy to be posting this stuff here."

and

"If this were my forum, I’d be going back and deleting all of those old DuMond threads for the sake of my friends and long-time members who were misinformed on this issue at the time."

Posted by: Karl on December 5, 2007 at 2:15 PM | PERMALINK

thanks for the laugh norman! you left francisco franco off the list!

Posted by: mudwall jackson on December 5, 2007 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK

So only governors who have never supported parole for a subsequent re-offender need apply for the presidency?

Kinda sucks for those of us who care about the excessive incarceration rate of the US.

Posted by: wait on December 5, 2007 at 2:20 PM | PERMALINK

Gee Norman, do you really believe all that crap? What do you think it cost to get Ken Starr to sign off on the Vincent Foster affair? How did they arrange to crash a Air Force plane into a mountain in Yugoslavia on a stormy day to cover the death of Ron Brown? Are you really our Norman? Usually your stuff has a reasonably cogent (if somewhat demented) train of thought, but this stuff is just wing nut looney tunes.

Posted by: fafner1 on December 5, 2007 at 2:20 PM | PERMALINK

good god. what a pack of dogs the republicans have...

Posted by: mudwall jackson on December 5, 2007 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK

If he was paroled two weeks later, why was he released from prison two years later?

Posted by: sal on December 5, 2007 at 2:23 PM | PERMALINK

(Darn Alzheimer's, but lost me re timeline with disconnect in my dying cells between last sentence lst graph and lst sentence 2nd graph. Envy you yung ins who ain't lost nothing, yet, and see no incoherence. Picky picky; goes with old age.)

Actually...
Note Re vigor of youth: this best blog commentary ever I have found based on 100+hrs reading online politics per month.

Posted by: Bertrand Russell on December 5, 2007 at 2:24 PM | PERMALINK

Gee Norman, do you really believe all that crap?

I believe it all as if Jesus H Christ himself said it on the Temple Mount. Well, that's a bit of hyperbole. But, yes, of course I believe it.

What do you think it cost to get Ken Starr to sign off on the Vincent Foster affair?

A few thousand dollars. Perhaps 10K.

How did they arrange to crash a Air Force plane into a mountain in Yugoslavia on a stormy day to cover the death of Ron Brown?

Another 10K for a technical type maintenance person to look the other way. These fellows have expensive tastes, maybe a girlfriend they don't want anyone to know about. They're easy to bribe or blackmail. They cut a few wires, they pour a little of this or that into the hydraulic lines, maybe put a small bomb on the plane. That's how I would do it. Mum's the word, though.

Are you really our Norman? Usually your stuff has a reasonably cogent (if somewhat demented) train of thought, but this stuff is just wing nut looney tunes.

Newsflash, Poindexter: they say I'm a parody and all that, but as far as I know, I'm real.

I'm only a "parody" or a "Colbert" when they can't handle what I'm telling them. Otherwise, I get called every name in the book.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 2:25 PM | PERMALINK

Normie I like Hillo almost as little as you but not for all the batshit crazy nonsense that you promulgate. Yea look up promulgate douche bag. Mainly because she's the wrong person for the job right now.

Posted by: Gandalf on December 5, 2007 at 2:30 PM | PERMALINK

Really, if you look at all the details of Huckabee's pardon of Dumond, I just don't see how his candidacy can survive real exposure of those events.

Welcome to the United States of America, 2007. May I introduce you to our media?

The reason Huckabee is doing so well in the polls is that the cult of (perceived) personality is triumphing once again. Despite being an evolution-denying, theocracy-craving, anti-gay, anti-choice, fiscally irresponsible, Islam-bashing, Economics 101-flunking weirdo, he really does sound like a nice, reasonable guy when he speaks...unlike Rudy or Paul or McCain or or or. He doesn't seem wild-eyed or hateful. He seems like a guy you could have a beer with--if he drinks beer, that is. (Does he? I can never remember which Baptists do and which don't.)

Low-information swing voters who don't like Hillary but don't feel quite comfortable voting for the more obviously insane Republicans are eating Huckabee up. He's also the choice of a lot of the religious right without courting them too obviously (he doesn't have to--he's the most viable of the anti-choice candidates). And the media is unlikely to help get the word out on what a freak he is. Of course he should go down hard and fast over his utterly craven and corrupt behavior in the Dumond case. But after the story's mostly ignored by the MSM, the talking points about it being "all the parole board's decision" will become entrenched and accepted.

I really don't want this guy to get the nomination. I really don't.

Again, like Bush, this is faith based policy making at its worst. All you have to really do to convince the evangelicals that you're a "good person" and apparently entitled to salvation not only in the afterlife, but also here on Earth, is profess a love for Jesus.

Sometimes. If you're Karla Faye Tucker, they just do crude imitations of you and laugh.

Sometimes I look around and wonder if I really want to be here. The U.S., that is. Maybe it's all the snow getting to me today.

Posted by: shortstop on December 5, 2007 at 2:30 PM | PERMALINK

If Huckabee had really believed he was rehabilitated, why the hell was one of the conditions of Dumond's release that he had to leave Arkansas?

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on December 5, 2007 at 2:32 PM | PERMALINK
.... as far as I know, I'm real.....ab-Norman Rogers at 2:25 PM
As you have demonstrated with every comment, that is not very far and not very much. Posted by: Mike on December 5, 2007 at 2:32 PM | PERMALINK

How do you think it feels to have your good name dragged through the mud? I worked all of my life in the investment banking field and made a lot of contacts. Occasionally, I will see someone in a social setting and they'll ask me about what I write here and what the liberals are saying about me and I'll have to pretend that it doesn't bother me.

Well, how do you think it feels to know they don't believe me? That they feel bad for me because I go onto this blog (and several others) and engage in spirited defence of all things conservative and Republican? It's embarrassing, on one level, but it's also difficult for me on another level because virtually none of you present any real challenge.

Posting here is like playing kickball with a bunch of 6 year old girls. After the ninth or tenth home run, it gets kind of old.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 2:33 PM | PERMALINK

I notice that Waas also says that the Parole Board won't release the letters from Dumond's victims that THEY received (and they were appointed by the two previous Dem governors, regardless of whether they were also "pressured" by Huckabee or not). And I don't believe for one split second that Dumond might have "castrated himself": just try it some time.

But at a minimum, we now know that Huckabee had serious doubts in retrospect about his own judgment -- and decided to cover up the evidence of his possible blunder. This story, actually, seems most toxic when it's combined with the "Salon" story that he's tried to cover up incompetent and/or corrupt actions quite frequently: http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/13/huckabee/print.html .

Meanwhile, note that he's squirming with increasing indignation on the Creationism issue ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/05/AR2007120501174_pf.html ) -- although the fact that he still favors teaching kids Intelligent Design strikes me as a lot less sinister than the fact that he's just been endorsed by Tim LaHaye, the author of the "Left Behind" books. Brrrr.

Posted by: Bruce Moomaw on December 5, 2007 at 2:40 PM | PERMALINK

Mr. Rogers seems to think that babbling all his "Reductio ad absurdum" is somehow classified as hitting a home run.

I think it has more to do with the fact that he's a team of one person playing with himself.

Posted by: Mrs. Peel on December 5, 2007 at 2:44 PM | PERMALINK

Posting here is like playing kickball with a bunch of 6 year old girls. After the ninth or tenth home run, it gets kind of old.
Posted by: Norman Rogers

If you would stop rolling us the ball with those imbecilic, paranoid screeds you post, you delusional fool, we wouldn't be able to slam the ball into the next county.

Posted by: DJ on December 5, 2007 at 2:48 PM | PERMALINK

Mr. Rogers seems to think that babbling all his "Reductio ad absurdum" is somehow classified as hitting a home run.

I hear you punks say that all the time, and yet no one has been able to prove what I've said is wrong.

Funny, but if that's not hitting a home run while you sit in the stands and howl your fool head off, I don't know what is.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK

"Posting here is like playing kickball with a bunch of 6 year old girls. After the ninth or tenth home run, it gets kind of old."
Posted by: Norman Rogers

If you don't like getting beat all the time, why play? Someone could get the idea you just like hanging around 6 year old girls.

Posted by: Steve Paradis on December 5, 2007 at 2:51 PM | PERMALINK

As far as I'm concerned, the deadliest charge against Huckabee in this case is in Waas' 2002 article on the case ( http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/ArticleViewer.aspx?ArticleID=154e1aad-fd18-4efd-8d80-b5dab8559419 ): "The state official who advised Huckabee on the Dumond case confirmed that the governor knew very little about Ashley Stevens’ case:

“ 'I don’t believe that he had access to, or read, the law enforcement records or parole commission’s files — even by then,' the official said. 'He already seemed to have made up his mind, and his knowledge of the case appeared to be limited to a large degree as to what people had told him, what Jay Cole had told him, and what he had read in the New York Post.'

"Jay Cole, like Huckabee, is a Baptist minister, pastor for the Mission Fellowship Bible Church in Fayetteville and a close friend of the governor and his wife. On the ultra-conservative radio program he hosts, Cole has championed the cause of Wayne Dumond for more than a decade. Cole has repeatedly claimed that Dumond’s various travails are the result of Ashley Stevens’ distant relationship to Bill Clinton."
________________________________

We really don't need any more faith-based Presidencies, thank you. I mean, Huckabee didn't even have an opportunity to Look Into Dumond's Eyes And See His Soul.

As for Norman: if the Brits can tolerate Hyde Park hecklers for their entertainment value, surely we can tolerate Norm.

Posted by: Bruce Moomaw on December 5, 2007 at 2:52 PM | PERMALINK

If you don't like getting beat all the time, why play? Someone could get the idea you just like hanging around 6 year old girls.

Yes, my granddaughters Miranda and Evie are here, and they're smarter than all of you put together. Evie pointed out that Clinton also had a number of active duty personnel who criticized his policies killed and Miranda wants to know when Kevin Dumbo is going to post about the health care industry and single payer programs.

Evie is 6, Miranda is her twin, five minutes younger.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK

And I don't believe for one split second that Dumond might have "castrated himself": Posted by: Bruce Moomaw

You've never met Norman Rogers' wife, have you?

Posted by: JeffII on December 5, 2007 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK

"yet no one has been able to prove what I've said is wrong."

The telling statement of someone using Reductio ad absurdum. "No one takes me seriously enough to even attempt to prove my idiotic statements are false so they must be true, even if I'm just pulling them out of my ass."

Good luck with that.

Posted by: Mrs. Peel on December 5, 2007 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK

Poor Mrs. Peel. Tut-tutting is a poor substitute for actually having something to say.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK

You know, Huck could wrap up the Republican nomination if he would just come out and tell the truth:

"At the time, a number of advisors told me that DuMond was innocent, and that he was the victim of Bill Clinton's wrath over his relative's allegations. Frankly, Bill Clinton was the nastiest sumabitch I ever met, and I believed these advisors. I was wrong, but my mistake was in trying to protect an innocent man from a known murderer and rapist like Bill Clinton. I'm sorry for that."

Course, that might make the general election kind of tough. But the primary voters would love it.

Posted by: Joe on December 5, 2007 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK

Wait, whose kids are Miranda and Evie? Chip's? Brooks'?

I like to keep my I Heart Norman book up to date. I lovingly review it every night before bed, also practising writing "Mrs. Shortstop Rogers" hundreds of times in various florid cursives.

Posted by: shortstop on December 5, 2007 at 3:03 PM | PERMALINK

This is wicked:

Run with it!

Posted by: David W. on December 5, 2007 at 3:10 PM | PERMALINK

Wait, whose kids are Miranda and Evie? Chip's? Brooks'?

Miranda and Evie are the children of my eldest son, Chip. Chip and his wife are visiting for the month of December. Chip is applying for his real estate agent's license for the state of New Hampshire (or Vermont if things go south on that front) and I am seeding him and his family with a little start up money. There is no better time to get into the real estate business--the foreclosures have put a lot of plum properties out there for people to snatch up on the cheap. Kudos to my son for realizing this and walking away from his job managing a Bennigan's.

And, for those of you who snark at me, Little Miranda is actually Anna Miranda, but we drop the Anna because that's her preference. She is named after my daughter Miranda, and copies her, right down to her love of wearing mascara and black capri pants.

How do you think it makes my grandchildren feel to sit at the computer in the kitchen and read these things about their grandfather?

Here, I'll let Evie post some things--Miranda is going to go outside and make a dead snowman.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 3:17 PM | PERMALINK

Hi libs.

Grampa says you are d * u * M!! b!

Ha ha ha

I have a puppy and hed her name is Pri ncess!!

Suck on egs!


ha ha hazaaaa!

Posted by: Evie Megan Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 3:24 PM | PERMALINK

Wow -- Rogers's multiple personalities now include fake grandchildren.

Please, Rogers...go back to the facility. The medication will help you.

Posted by: DJ on December 5, 2007 at 3:26 PM | PERMALINK

As far as Huckabee's concerned, he says he has come clean ... by pointing out that the parole board who released Dumond was mostly appointed by Democratic governors Clinton and Jim Guy Tucker.

I'm reminded of Paul Krugman's quip about versions of the shape of the Earth differing after noting that said Arkansas parole board was set to *deny* Dumond parole when Gov. Huckabee intervened on Dumond's behalf.

Posted by: David W. on December 5, 2007 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK

'I am conflicted as to whether Hillary pulled the trigger.'
--Stormin' Norman Rogers

One problem with this theory, Normie - Hillary was returning from a trip to Japan and was in the Hawaiian islands when Vince Foster's body was found. She would have to have a pretty long trigger finger (like about 5.000 miles long). You can pull up the front page of the New York Times from July 21st, 1993 and check yourself.

I still say the only way to resolve the Foster case, is to exhume the body and do a full forensic analysis and autopsy, and bill the costs to the RNC. Then, if it turns out that Foster committed suicide, as four separate investigations concluded, the people who were so convinced Foster was murdered should be forced to eat his remains. You, Bill O-Reilly, Ann Coulter, etc. get your knives and forks out and dig in! That would be poetic justice.

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on December 5, 2007 at 3:38 PM | PERMALINK

It's funny to see Clinton supporters suddenly become anti-rape when it suits them.

Posted by: a on December 5, 2007 at 3:40 PM | PERMALINK

Sometime between Sunday and Monday on TV I heard Huckabee being interviewed and asked about this issue; part of his response included an explanation that the people responsible for Dummond's release were appointed by Clinton when we he was Governor. Is that true?

Posted by: Cadamoph on December 5, 2007 at 3:41 PM | PERMALINK

All these Republicans and their scandals. Anybody would think they're not serious about winning.

Posted by: Matt on December 5, 2007 at 3:43 PM | PERMALINK

Posting here is like playing kickball with a bunch of 6 year old girls. After the ninth or tenth home run, it gets kind of old.

There there Norman. I'm sure if you stick with it you are bound to get at least one of them out.

But I hear you about what a drag it is being a Republican these days. I can't imagine how you can even get out of bed in the morning. Have you tried hitting the sauce?

Posted by: Tripp on December 5, 2007 at 3:46 PM | PERMALINK

Cadamoph, the record suggests otherwise:

When Huckabee became governor in 1996, he expressed doubts about DuMond’s guilt and said he was considering commuting his sentence to time served. After the victim and her supporters protested, Huckabee decided against commutation. But in 1997, according to the Kansas City Star, Huckabee wrote a letter to DuMond saying “my desire is that you be released from prison.” Less than a year later, DuMond was granted parole.

Huckabee’s office denied that the governor played a role in the parole board’s decision, but there was evidence (exhaustively detailed here) to contradict that claim.

Charles Chastain, a Professor of Criminal Justice at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock, who was on the parole board at the time, told CBSNews.com the governor met with the board to argue on DuMond’s behalf.

“He thought DuMond had gotten a raw deal,” said Chastain, who calls himself neutral towards Huckabee. “He said he’d been born on the wrong side of the tracks and hadn’t been treated all that fairly.”

Posted by: David W. on December 5, 2007 at 3:48 PM | PERMALINK

Busted one more jackass.

Posted by: Matt on December 5, 2007 at 3:51 PM | PERMALINK

Makeup on a 6-year-old? That's sick.

Posted by: Matt on December 5, 2007 at 4:07 PM | PERMALINK

I expected kids to be in school, too, and not at the kitchen table reading the internet.

Posted by: Tripp on December 5, 2007 at 4:27 PM | PERMALINK

Norman insists.

He likes to play "Gennifer Flowers and Bill Clinton."

I suspect his fate will be similar to Wayne Dumond's.

Posted by: Mormon Dodgers on December 5, 2007 at 4:27 PM | PERMALINK

If Huckabee had pardoned this monster--with or without letters from his victims--that would be very bad, but forgiveable. One could always say he made a mistake.

But the fact that he responded to pressure to pardon him simply to "get back" at Clinton is beyond heinous. And excusing himself by noting he believed the said monster had really "found Jesus" doesn't speak well of his intelligence or cunning. Would hate to see him with some of the dodgier characters around the world. He'd get his ass kicked.

In any case, let the Willie Horton ads begin!

Posted by: LAS on December 5, 2007 at 4:39 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin: My reading of the Waas story suggests that Huckabee collected the information from other agencies into the Governor's office to protect them from FOIA requests. This story was not widely told, even in Arkansas, prior to his reelection as Governor--so it never really had a chance to hurt him there.

Norman: It is a conspiracy so vast that only now are the barest details becoming obvious! Do you have any idea how many people would have to be involved in to successfully carry out the sort of conspiracy you suggest? So many that eventually someone discovers their conscience, or gets nervous, or pissed, or stupid and either leaks a key piece or makes a mistake. This brings the conspirators down, and killing a bunch of people-presumeably including some who had decided to go to the authorities--only makes this more likely.

Though it may be difficult to disprove each of the charges you make or imply, it is also pretty silly to think that not a single conspirator--from aircraft mechanics in Europe to shooters in Little Rock--has ever come forward. They can't all be dead--and won't stay quiet forever for 10K.

I could also make a list of all the people you have ever known--friend or foe--who died. That does not mean you killed them.

Posted by: R. Stanton Scott on December 5, 2007 at 4:43 PM | PERMALINK

That Huckabee is now trying to duck this by saying it was the parole board's decision, belies the fact that it was Huckabee as governor who directly influenced the Arkansas parole board to free Dumond. Where's the accountability here?

Posted by: David W. on December 5, 2007 at 4:43 PM | PERMALINK

Good to see Norman once again managed to derail a thread with completely irrelevant information.

He didn't even bother to explain how in the holy hell an investigation that cost $40 million, took several years, and had as its lead a man with unchecked subpoena power, managed to find not one single instance of Clintonian guilt other than the fact Bill lied about a blowjob.

But hey ... I guess when everything you believe has been proven a complete disaster and utterly wrong these past few years, all you have left is fully-baked conspiracy theories that lack a single shred of actual evidence.

As far as Huckabee goes, this will only hurt him in the primaries if: a.) another campaign jumps on it; b.) the media does its job in reporting it.

Otherwise, it will only come up again if he gets the nomination.

Posted by: Mark D on December 5, 2007 at 4:50 PM | PERMALINK

If Huckabee's efforts to get Dumond paroled isn't brought up in the South Carolina primary by one or more of his opponents, I'll be astounded.

Posted by: David W. on December 5, 2007 at 4:54 PM | PERMALINK

One problem with this theory, Normie - Hillary was returning from a trip to Japan and was in the Hawaiian islands when Vince Foster's body was found.

Bullcrap, sir. THAT'S part of the overall coverup. As I said, it was Stephanopolous who whacked Phil, I mean, Vince.

Makeup on a 6-year-old? That's sick.

Auntie Miranda has a bit of a taste for what the kids call "Goth" culture and likes to wear a good amount of eye makeup. I call it raccoon eyes, only, there's no raccoon that I know of who also wears black and listens to something or other called the Dead Can Dance. Little Anna Miranda takes after her, and they are like two peas in a pod. They are in the front yard here at the New Hampshire house, making a snowman who has been crucified AND impaled through the heart with a stake--sort of a vampire Jesus. Let me check that, a vampire Jesus with "x's" for eyes and a TV remote for a nose. I suspect I'll get another round of frantic letters from the Association.

I could also make a list of all the people you have ever known--friend or foe--who died. That does not mean you killed them.

No, that's the list of people that Clinton has killed. Thousands more have died of "natural causes" and whatnot. We've only begun to delve into what the deuce has really been going on.

I notice none of you are criticizing Bill Clinton--is it because you know, in your heart of hearts, that an Arkansas state trooper will put a hollow point round through your teeth if you do?

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 4:58 PM | PERMALINK

Republicans are soft on criminals!

Republicans can't manage military operations!

Republicans deliberately mis-interpret National Intelligence Estimates!

Republicans believe in deficit spending & wasting taxpayer dollars on bridges to nowhere!

Republicans are corrupt!

Republicans appoint incompetent managers to oversee disaster response!

Republicans solicit gay sex in public bathrooms!

Republicans don't believe in evolution!

Republicans believe torture and preventing fair trials is OK!

Republicans purge voter roles and politicize the justice process!

-- If Democrats can't work this to our advantage in 2008 we don't deserve to be in the White House.

Posted by: pj in jesusland on December 5, 2007 at 5:04 PM | PERMALINK

I'm not worried pj. Democrats are going to run the table in 2008, no doubt about it.

Posted by: David W. on December 5, 2007 at 5:08 PM | PERMALINK

Would Huckabee be a good guy to drink beer with? I don’t know, but there is an old saying: “Don’t take just one Baptist fishing with you, because he’ll drink all your beer”.

Posted by: fafner1 on December 5, 2007 at 5:13 PM | PERMALINK

The castration while out on bail is actually relevant. I believe there was evidence that the physical trauma could reduce his sex drive, i.e., his desire for recitivism. That would be wrong, of course in hindsight, but its not as if the entire story is predicated on the swamp fever. Someone could reasonably conclude that he was no longer a threat based on the assaualt he suffered while on bail.

That said, Willie Horton comparisons are fair game and should allow us to destroy him. Pastor "Everyone is God's Children" Huckabee v. Hillary "The Man-hating Bitch" Clinton. Who is really going to be the better anti-Crime president?

Posted by: do on December 5, 2007 at 5:22 PM | PERMALINK

Don't worry about the Dumond episode. Norman says it's morally acceptable since the Clinton's (allegedly) did something bad themselves. Liberals are frequently accused of moral relativism. From conservatives we get moral surrealism.

Posted by: CT on December 5, 2007 at 5:33 PM | PERMALINK
....trooper will put a hollow point round through your teeth if you do?ab-Norman Rogers at 4:58 PM
If one were to bounce a rock on your head, no only would it sink it, it would raise you IQ by 20 points. However, you would still have a reptilian brain. Posted by: Mike on December 5, 2007 at 5:36 PM | PERMALINK

And when Huck was asked what was the subject of the closed door meeting he held with the parole board just before Dumond was paroled, he said "I don't remember".

Yet another republican with a poor memory!

And Norman, yes, you've figured it out. It's a conspiracy and it's big. So big, in fact, we're all in on it. Everyone but you.

Posted by: sceptic on December 5, 2007 at 5:44 PM | PERMALINK

"I call it raccoon eyes"

I call it "replicant."

It's sick.

Posted by: Matt on December 5, 2007 at 5:52 PM | PERMALINK

Norman, while you are scrolling around OT, I would like to bring home one little detail to put you back on topic.

1 in 4 women get raped in this country.

So which is it in your household will be that 1, your wife? your sister? one of your granddaughters?

A Republican let a dangerous criminal back out on the streets and by luck, that criminal found someone other than your family to brutalize.

Lucky you. Unlucky that 39 year old.

You going off topic on this in your endless efforts to bring liberals down to your level shows how thin the veil of your self-justification, and that you are track-training your grandkids to regurgitate the same closed-minded Republican mantra before they can even make up their own minds shows you are relentless in your desire for affirmation (from 6 YO's Sir?).

I am glad you have a family who loves you. It is too bad you use those little girls to forward your own agenda, though. I hope it doesn't backfire on you.

Posted by: Zit on December 5, 2007 at 5:58 PM | PERMALINK

Norm, do you really think $10k is enough for someone to sabotage Ron Brown's plane?

Because to me, $10k is chump-change and I don't take my dick out for chump-change.

And I sure as hell won't sabotage a plane for $10k.

As underpaid as AF mechanics might be, even they would charge more than that. Especially as they're going to have to survive an investigation into the plane's maintenance history.

I know you anti-Clinton conspiracy nuts live in a world where anything and everything is possible, but you really need more credible plot points to convince those of us who live in the real world.

Norman, I think about guys like you every day as I drive past the Fort Marcy exit on the GW parkway -- "that's where Bill and Hillary dumped Vince's body after shooting him."

encae willing to cause a plane to make a military jet

Posted by: Auto on December 5, 2007 at 6:06 PM | PERMALINK

Why is everyone so worried about Huck getting the Repub nomination?

I can imagine lots of scenarios by which Rudy, McCain or Mitt can beat Hill, BO, or Edwards.

But Huck beating a Dem? In a general election next November?

Sorry, that no compute.

Posted by: Auto on December 5, 2007 at 6:09 PM | PERMALINK

I notice none of you are criticizing Bill Clinton--is it because you know, in your heart of hearts, that an Arkansas state trooper will put a hollow point round through your teeth if you do?
Posted by: Norman Rogers

No, you stupid delusional cipher. It's because Clinton is entirely irrelevant to the issue of whether Huckabee exercised poor judgment in releasing a recidivist rapist-murderer, whom he had reason to know would rape and murder again, and who, in fact, did eactly that.

Get back to the hospital and take those meds.

Posted by: DJ on December 5, 2007 at 6:13 PM | PERMALINK

the excessive incarceration rate of the US.

Incarceration rates are excessive in the US, but perhaps not for violent crimes. Incarceration should be the result of conviction for violent crime. The offender should be seperated from society to prevent more crimes against people.

Rape is a crime that implies death will be administered unless the victim follows the commands of the rapist. I think that is a very serious crime that warrants very long prison sentences, if not lifelong imprisonment. Like armed robbers, rapists have communicated they will kill unless their will is obeyed. Once a person exhibits the will to kill, and found guilty of it in a court of law, they should be removed from society and it should be extremely difficult for them to return to it.

The excessive incarceration in the US is not for crimes against the body or property, but crimes for behavior. These crimes do not rise to the level of requiring incarceration. Howling moralist demagogues, people like Gov. Huckabee and just about every other politician, exploit the public's appetite for incarcerating people deemed immoral, which is why some people serve longer sentences for drug possession than they do for manslaughter and rape.

Huckabee is rotten on two issues. For political reasons Huckabee helped release a person who should have remained incarcerated for a very long time, if not forever, and he supports incarcerating people who should never spend a moment in jail. Almost all of the other candidates are rotten on that last issue.

Posted by: Brojo on December 5, 2007 at 6:15 PM | PERMALINK

But Huck beating a Dem? In a general election next November?

Step into the way-back machine. Can you imagine a silly moron like GW Bush beating a smart man like Al Gore, based on a certain superficial charm and the fact that Gore, while by all accounts a very nice man, doesn't radiate lovability?

And yes, I know Gore really won the election. But how did a moron like Bush even get within stealing distance? Don't discount Huckabee just because he's a fool.

Posted by: thersites on December 5, 2007 at 6:32 PM | PERMALINK

What Brojo said.

Posted by: shortstop on December 5, 2007 at 6:33 PM | PERMALINK

thersites: But how did a moron like Bush even get within stealing distance?

By coming across as a fairly likeable, seemingly non-radical guy. A guy who might not impassion the voters who're only barely paying attention, but doesn't scare them either, because he seems like a lot of people's unbrilliant but predictable brother-in-law. It's only after your sister marries him that you figure out he has a penchant for neverending domestic (and foreign) abuse.

Yeah--like Huck. Not a good idea to underestimate low-info voters' attraction to guys like this.

Posted by: shortstop on December 5, 2007 at 6:39 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, yeah, yeah, cause you know Bush was NOT a bad guy but Clinton was big time liar.

Actually with anyone who isn't so partisan that they are nothing short of being extremely cross-eyed in the way Huckabee allowed himself to be, and will thus allow himself, should he become the GOP nominee, something like Ashcroft, where every decision will be guided by highly superstitious, biased – “my way or the highway” neo-con style, closed-mindedness.

Huckabee shows actually the same style of partial, indifferent and exact same kind of imperceptive style that has been a hallmark exhibited by the Bush administration.

Huckabee is just another isolationist, another Bush.

Posted by: Me_ again on December 5, 2007 at 7:22 PM | PERMALINK

"but doesn't scare them either, because he seems like a lot of people's unbrilliant but predictable brother-in-law"

shortstop - Not throwing stones, but this was a recommendation for him to be president of the United States? What a country.

Posted by: JohnK on December 5, 2007 at 8:27 PM | PERMALINK

JohnK: Not throwing stones, but this was a recommendation for him to be president of the United States?

Not from me it wasn't, obviously. But there are a whole lot of voters who choose their candidate solely on gut reaction, on how he or she makes them feel, without looking much at his or her actual policy positions--or even by managing to ignore the disconnect between their own policy preferences and those of the candidate they find most appealing on a personal level. People also tend to vote for the candidate they most identify with, and in that case "unbrilliant but predictable brother-in-law" is a plus, not a minus, for many.

I'm not attempting to be superior here; we all vote on personality and emotion to some extent, whether we realize it or not, but if you take the time to become informed about the candidates it's easier to beat down the purely emotional stuff as much as possible.

Bush could never have gotten within stealing distance unless there were way too many people who felt more comfortable with what they perceived as a regular Joe than with a policy wonk or effete intellectual. Low-information swing voters are voting on one or two issues and on personality--or on personality alone. Look how many Bush voters could not correctly identify a single position their, er, man held...in 2004! I think it's quite likely a lot of those people will go for Huckabee unless the media wakes up one day very soon and decides to actually cover his stated positions and his gubernatorial history. And I'm not hopeful that it will.

Hope I'm wrong.

Posted by: shortstop on December 5, 2007 at 9:42 PM | PERMALINK

However, you would still have a reptilian brain.

I checked, and I do not have the brain of a reptile. Were that the case, I would have different skin and the ability to swim underwater a little better than I already do.

Because to me, $10k is chump-change and I don't take my dick out for chump-change.

Too much information, sir. Too much information.

Norman, while you are scrolling around OT, I would like to bring home one little detail to put you back on topic.
1 in 4 women get raped in this country.
So which is it in your household will be that 1, your wife? your sister? one of your granddaughters?
A Republican let a dangerous criminal back out on the streets and by luck, that criminal found someone other than your family to brutalize.
Lucky you. Unlucky that 39 year old.
You going off topic on this in your endless efforts to bring liberals down to your level shows how thin the veil of your self-justification, and that you are track-training your grandkids to regurgitate the same closed-minded Republican mantra before they can even make up their own minds shows you are relentless in your desire for affirmation (from 6 YO's Sir?).
I am glad you have a family who loves you. It is too bad you use those little girls to forward your own agenda, though. I hope it doesn't backfire on you.

So the reason why people rape people is because of Republicans? Good luck selling that line of pseudo-science to the American people.

I have guns in almost every room of my home, and if someone threatened anyone I love, well, I would probably miss a few times but I would definitely maim or kill whoever tried to hurt them. Thank you for your concern for my family, but really--you're not helping your "cause" any tonight. And I suspect your "cause" is moral indignation that has no bearing on anything relevant.

It's because Clinton is entirely irrelevant to the issue of whether Huckabee exercised poor judgment in releasing a recidivist rapist-murderer, whom he had reason to know would rape and murder again, and who, in fact, did eactly that.

What I find striking is that there's no proof that Clinton didn't have a hand in smearing this man. There is no attempt to find out which member of Clinton's state trooper detail was involved in covering this up.

Is it not possible that Huckabee was framed by former remnants of the Clinton regime? Think about that and get back to me.

You're all so high and mighty. Well, guess what? I'm smiling and waving from on high and you're all groveling on the floor, sucking eggs and wishing for a morsel of wisdom when all you get are the crumbs of despair.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 10:23 PM | PERMALINK

I think it's quite likely a lot of those people will go for Huckabee unless the media wakes up one day very soon and decides to actually cover his stated positions and his gubernatorial history. And I'm not hopeful that it will. Hope I'm wrong.
Posted by: shortstop

You are rarely wrong, but this time you are.

Huckabee may be doing well in Iowa, and his Baptist saint shtick will most certainly play well in a lot of the South. But he'll get his butt kicked in Michigan, which is the first major state primary January 15th.

Posted by: JeffII on December 5, 2007 at 10:37 PM | PERMALINK

Huckabee may be doing well in Iowa, and his Baptist saint shtick will most certainly play well in a lot of the South. But he'll get his butt kicked in Michigan, which is the first major state primary January 15th.

Look at the amateur! Think you have the stones to play in my arena, which is Republican Party politics, sir? Good luck with that.

The eventual nominee of the Republican Party will be Mitt Romney. Sorry to have to break it to all of you, but this is a money game, and whoever raises the most money gets the nomination. That's not McCain (who blew it) and that's not the man I actually support (Guiliani, who has had a personal collapse on ethics issues) and it's not the laziest Republican ever (the hangdog Thompson.)

Hucksterbee isn't on that list. Ignore the Iowa Caucus. Let's see--didn't Pat Robertson win Iowa once? And Dole? And a bunch of other idiots who never got the nomination?

You're thinking Michigan matters? It does not, sir. South Carolina matters. Michigan does not. And Michigan is Romney territory.

But you knew that, didn't you, Mr. Expert on the Party you Don't Know Anything About.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

1988- Bob Dole (37%) defeated Pat Robertson (25%),
1988- Bob Dole (37%) defeated Pat Robertson (25%), George H. W. Bush* (19%),

Correction--in 1996, Dole beat Buchanan, but in effect, Buchanan terrified the party by having a stronger showing than expected. Dole eventually ran a terrible campaign, hampered by his old age and his nutty wife.

I was thinking of 1988, when I actually campaigned on behalf of my old friend Peter DuPont. We spent three weeks in Iowa, walking in shabby cornfields and wondering where all the corn was--hello, they had harvested it! Silly me. And why doesn't anyone wear nice shoes? Everyone walks around in dour footwear in Iowa. I have not been back.

Dole beat Robertson AND Bush but Bush got the nomination. Robertson ALSO scare the bejeezus out of us. He had mad, dancing eyes and a tendency to grab your hand like he was trying to resuscitate a dead fish.

My apologies, JeffII, I made errors and I shall own up to them. My basic point that the Iowa Caucus doesn't mean much does stand, however. GW Bush beat Reagan there in 1980, didn't get the nomination.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 11:03 PM | PERMALINK

Sorry to have to break it to all of you, but this is a money game, and whoever raises the most money gets the nomination.

Yes Norm. Witness President Phil Graham.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on December 5, 2007 at 11:55 PM | PERMALINK

BGRS,

I find the dynamics of what passes for Republican "discussion" interesting.

GOP blabbermouths like Norm enjoy trying to "win" discussions like the Huckerbee vs. Romney issue when their arguments a) are based on boldly made assertions but not facts ("this is a money game"); and b) their arguments often show no consistency with arguments they have previously made.

It's like they try to make up for their lack of factual grounding with bluster and their lack of consistency by being dismissive. People like Norm hear but don't listen. Like their leader.

Posted by: pj in jesusland on December 6, 2007 at 5:29 AM | PERMALINK

One other aspect presents itself here.

Lots of people will give Huckabee a pass because Dumond was white. In a case of alleged rape, many people, esp conservatives, will believe the white man and disbelieve the white woman. So, many will believe that Huckabee's position was "only natural."

It's only when (like Horton) the man is black that he is "obviously" guilty, even before he is convicted.

Posted by: Nancy Irving on December 6, 2007 at 8:10 AM | PERMALINK

It seems that a lot of people had a hand in letting this guy free. I'm a Democrat and don't want Huckabee to be President, but for whatever reason the previous Governor reduced his sentence and the parole board set him free.

Huckabee may have other issues coming forward, such as gifts that were given to him, but if this man was the only killer set free and Huckabee was not the only one pushing for his release, then Huckabee has a point when he says that many people failed.

That said, we shall see whether this was one terrible mistake or a pattern.

Posted by: PE on December 6, 2007 at 9:12 AM | PERMALINK

...crumbs of despair. Posted by: Norman Rogers on December 5, 2007 at 10:23 PM

How is it you choose not to throw your considerable tenaciousness behind a person of some character and integrity, rather than Bush who lacks both; or is it a case of like attracts like?

Posted by: Zit on December 6, 2007 at 9:44 AM | PERMALINK

I'm a Democrat and don't want Huckabee to be President, but for whatever reason the previous Governor reduced his sentence and the parole board set him free...Huckabee has a point when he says that many people failed.

That said, we shall see whether this was one terrible mistake or a pattern.

The parole board isn't running for president. Huckabee has yet to offer a sincere expression of regret for his actions which doesn't end with..."but it really wasn't my fault, or at least all my fault, because the parole board has the final say and, um, Bill Clinton appointed these guys."

That's no kind of accountability, and if reports are correct, he greatly compounds his sin of terrible judgment by:

--Refusing to release the other victims' letters (and sometimes, even now, trying to claim they don't exist).
--Considering making other agencies turn over their documentation to the governor's office where it wouldn't be subject to FOIA.
--Pretending that the governor has no influence over the parole board and accusing those PB members who say he pressured them of being "politically motivated" (particularly ironic in light of why he wanted to release Dumond in the first place--a girl is dead because of him and this jerk is still shamelessly Clinton-bashing).
--Claiming that Clinton's lieutenant governor commuted Dumond's sentence (he actually shortened it to a degree that would still have had Dumond in jail until he was an old man, plus told the parole board he didn't believe Dumond should ever be paroled) and that the LG had to have been working in league with Clinton, when he knew Clinton had recused himself from the whole case because of his relation to one of the victims. (Also, Huck's claim that Clinton had to know about the trimmed sentence because this is the way the governor's office works flies directly in the face of his claim that the governor has no involvement in the parole process.)

And the most blatantly coldblooded move:

--Sitting in staff meetings planning to suppress the documents so they can't hurt him politically. Jesus Christ.

There are "terrible mistakes," as you put it, and there are terrible mistakes that become unforgivable when a purposeful cover-up ensues. Huckabee is a piece of shit who put politics--hatred of the Clintons--above the human life he claims to revere.

Posted by: shortstop on December 6, 2007 at 10:34 AM | PERMALINK

You are rarely wrong, but this time you are.

Delighted to hear it. I don't like this asshole's rise in popularity at all. While I don't really believe he'll get the nomination--Norm is right about it being a money game--I'm skittish after the events of the past few years. And this race isn't like 2000, when all the money lined up behind GWB very early.

The widely scattered condition of GOP voters makes me nervous. Whatever we progressives may say dismissively about the chances of a freakazoid Baptist minister becoming president, if the Democratic candidate is HRC, I really think Huckabee would be a more dangerous opponent in the general than Rudy would be, for the reasons I outlined above.

Posted by: shortstop on December 6, 2007 at 10:47 AM | PERMALINK

There is plenty of time for the truth to come out. I just remember working for the Dukakis campaign when his opponents essentially said that he put politics ahead of human life and that he was responsible for the murders that Willie Horton committed. Dukakis was also called cold hearted by the murderer's victims.

Posted by: PE on December 6, 2007 at 10:50 AM | PERMALINK

It should take roughly forty seconds to destroy Huckabee in a debate:

"Governor, you've been trying to pass off the responsibility for this decision on to other people, but the bottom line is that the parole board did what you wanted, freed this rapist, and as a result two young women are dead. And the reason you wanted him free is because you decided you had to get your advice on this matter from a bunch of hate-mongering fanatics. They fed you a bunch of paranoid drivel and out-and-out lies about poor Wayne DuMond, innocent victim of an evil Clinton conspiracy. And you swallowed it whole. Why on earth should we allow a man who makes decisions this way, who trusts psychos and conmen to guide him in life and death decisions, into the White House?"

Posted by: Jeffrey Kramer on December 6, 2007 at 11:08 AM | PERMALINK

PE: There is plenty of time for the truth to come out.

The truth is out now. The letters from victims to Huckabee have been released, the victim who met personally with Huckabee has told her story, and Huckabee is not denying his former staffer's report that Huckabee and aides sat around and plotted to cover this up.

The question is whether this will get the pickup it deserves in the MSM.

I just remember working for the Dukakis campaign when his opponents essentially said that he put politics ahead of human life and that he was responsible for the murders that Willie Horton committed. Dukakis was also called cold hearted by the murderer's victims.

Since you worked for Dukakis, you'll remember that he'd never heard of Willie Horton nor advocated on his behalf. I'm surprised that you don't also remember that Horton raped, but did not murder, after his release (which isn't a downplaying of the seriousness of rape, but I'm having trouble understanding why a Dukakis volunteer would claim that the governor was accused of being "responsible for the murders that Horton committed").

The actual accusation against Dukakis was that he endorsed parole policies that led to Horton's release, after which Horton raped and robbed. Conversely, Huckabee personally pushed for the release of Dumond, calling his conviction unjust, and he ignored very personal pleas from women who had been raped and threatened with murder by Dumond. He also was in possession of information about Dumond's previous participation in a murder (for which he avoided sentencing by testifying against the other participants). All this, and yet he went to bat for this one guy, who went on to commit another murder after his release.

See the difference? I'm betting most people, not just staunch Democrats like you, will.

Posted by: shortstop on December 6, 2007 at 11:15 AM | PERMALINK

I was a Dukakis volunteer but the campaign was 19 years ago. I do remember the victims of Willie Horton going on talk shows, but yes Mike Dukakis' involvement was different than Huckabee's involvement in that an existing program continued during his administration rather than Dukakis advocating on the behalf of one individual as Huckabee appears to have done.

Posted by: PE on December 6, 2007 at 11:47 AM | PERMALINK

There is plenty of time for the truth to come out.

Um, no. It is 28 days to the Iowa Caucuses and he is currently in the lead.

These Republican assholes have always had a lower standard of ethics than your average mobster. At least they only go after the person in question, and leave the families alone. This monster raped a cousin of their most bitter enemy - the man who beat them handily every single time, the man they could not hurt in any other way, so they started a full-court press to get the monster Dumond released.

They had minimal success with Gim Guy Tucker, who reduced the sentence, but they really wanted the bastard free and walking the streets while their most bitter enemy was still in the White House.

They got their wish. A condition of releasing him from prison was that he had to leave Arkansas. So he came to my town, and proceeded to murder two women.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on December 6, 2007 at 11:49 AM | PERMALINK

These Republican assholes

On C-SPAN's Washington Journal program this morning I saw that the NY Times had a picture of Huck preaching from a pulpit. Not all assholes are Republican.

Posted by: Brojo on December 6, 2007 at 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

I saw that the NY Times had a picture of Huck preaching from a pulpit. Not all assholes are Republican.

True, but what is your point? That the NYT is being assholish for printing a photo of Huck in a pulpit to accompany a story on how he turned pastorship into politics?

I would have greatly preferred a story on how Huck's ad nauseam commentary on the sanctity of life is compromised by the details of the Dumond disaster, but it doesn't seem untoward to illustrate a story about Huckabee's ministerial past with a photo of him preaching.

Posted by: shortstop on December 6, 2007 at 12:32 PM | PERMALINK

When this case was in the news back in 1996, it was always mentioned that DNA tests done on semen from the victim's pants did NOT match Dumond's. So, at the time, it did appear that he might have been wrongly convicted.

Now, it's never mentioned. Not by Waas, not by Ross nor by Huckabee's campaign. Why?

Was there no DNA test? What gives?

Posted by: MLA on December 6, 2007 at 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

My point was the editors of the NY Times are assholes for using the reverential picture of Huckabee because they know it appeals to the religously challenged elecotorate. The whole point of the NY Times story was to drum up support for this man, not reveal him for the political hack he really is.

Posted by: Brojo on December 6, 2007 at 3:44 PM | PERMALINK

Well, I'm no fan of the NYT, particularly over the past few years, Brojo, but the guy is a minister and he clearly did use the pulpit as a springboard to the ballot, so I'd call this one within journalistic bounds...if we also see some decent coverage from them on the Dumond and NIE matters. We'll see.

Posted by: shortstop on December 6, 2007 at 4:04 PM | PERMALINK

The timing of the story bothers me, coming the day after the revelation about Huckabee being sent letters by Dumond's victims. But perhaps you are correct and it was his recent surge in the polls that prompted the story and its placement.

Posted by: Brojo on December 6, 2007 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK
Michael Dukakis had essentially the same problem with the Willie Horton case.meathead republican at 10:54 AM
Except that he didn't go before a parole board and advocate Horton's release then lie about it later.
I checked, and I do not have the brain of a reptile....ab- Norman Rogers at 10:23 PM
Your proclivity for wallowing in the Republican swamps of smear&lie and irrationality is decidedly reptilian. Posted by: Mike on December 6, 2007 at 5:24 PM | PERMALINK

And I don't believe for one split second that Dumond might have "castrated himself": just try it some time.

I don't want to give you nightmares, but it happens all the time, especially among sex offenders who feel they can't control themselves. A two-second Google search found yet another guy who tried it in Springfield, Ill., about a month ago. And that's leaving aside famous ones, like the people who were part of the Heaven's Gate cult.

Do not try to Google "self-castration" unless you have a strong stomach, BTW. I'm already regretting it.

Posted by: Mnemosyne on December 6, 2007 at 6:18 PM | PERMALINK

Brojo: But perhaps you are correct and it was his recent surge in the polls that prompted the story and its placement.

That's not what I said, of course.

I said it was perfectly appropriate to use a photo of Huckabee in a pulpit to illustrate a story about his pastorship being a springboard to his political career. And, in fact, his being a minister and using that in his political career is a legitimate story, just as any other candidate's professional background is a legitimate story. Yes, Huckabee's particular profession triggers significant and varying emotions on all sides (and photos of him practicing that profession do so even more, obviously); that's notable and worth exploring, but that alone doesn't make a story about his profession a non-story.

I said nothing about the timing of the story and what prompted it. I did, however, note that whether or not the NYT chooses to properly cover the Dumond and NIE issues will have an effect on how I judge its motivations in running the pastor-to-politician story.

Posted by: shortstop on December 7, 2007 at 11:44 AM | PERMALINK




 

 

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