Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

Email Newsletter icon, E-mail Newsletter icon, Email List icon, E-mail List icon Sign up for Free News & Updates

December 12, 2007
By: Kevin Drum

"WE CREATE OUR OWN REALITY"....Via Kieran Healy, a university professor tells a wee tale:

I have now received three (3) student papers that discuss Iraq's attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11. All three papers mention it as an aside to another point. I've had two papers on the virtue of forgiveness that argue that if we had just forgiven Iraq for the 9/11 attacks, we wouldn't be at war right now. I just read a paper on the problem of evil which asked why God allowed "the Iraq's" to attack us on 9/11.

The thing that upsets me most here is that the the students don't just believe that that Iraq was behind 9/11. This is a big fact in their minds, that leaps out at them, whenever they think about the state of the world.

Mission accomplished!

Kevin Drum 12:09 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (97)

Bookmark and Share
 
Comments

Kevin, you are depressing me today. Stop it, or I will have to go stick my head in the sand.

Posted by: IdahoEv on December 12, 2007 at 12:13 PM | PERMALINK

My daughter recently started substitute teaching in a southern state, and she is reading the same thing in papers the students write.

Posted by: KathyF on December 12, 2007 at 12:14 PM | PERMALINK

You can still give Fs in college, right?

Posted by: digitusmedius on December 12, 2007 at 12:17 PM | PERMALINK

I wonder if the same students still believe in Santa Claus?

Posted by: RobertSeattle on December 12, 2007 at 12:18 PM | PERMALINK

Out of how many students? I'm sure these are the same ones who believe Social Security won't be around when they retire and Al Gore invented the internet.

Posted by: martin on December 12, 2007 at 12:20 PM | PERMALINK

My children do not believe that, because I do not believe that. I would like this professor to do a simple test:

1) Do you believe that Iraq was behind 9/11?

2) Do your parents agree with the statement "President Bush is a good person."

I believe that the same persons will agree with both.

Posted by: POed Lib on December 12, 2007 at 12:21 PM | PERMALINK

Do Uni instructors not believe in giving students failing grades?

Posted by: raj on December 12, 2007 at 12:27 PM | PERMALINK

God help us all (or FSM, if that's your thing ;-) ). That's the most depressing thing I've read all week, and there's plenty of depressing things out there.

Posted by: Ben Bartlett on December 12, 2007 at 12:30 PM | PERMALINK

No Child Left Behind in our successful propaganda efforts.

Posted by: dr2chase on December 12, 2007 at 12:31 PM | PERMALINK

Who wants to bet that the wingnut response to this won't be some mixture of "check the kerning" and "in a post 9-11 world we couldn't allow Saddam to stay in power."

There is never, EVER admission of culpability on their part or the part of their authoritarian daddy figures.

Posted by: just disgusted on December 12, 2007 at 12:32 PM | PERMALINK

I think the Professor should leave Liberty University and get a real tenure/professorship at an accredited University.

Posted by: sheerahkahn on December 12, 2007 at 12:33 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin,

This reminds me of a paper I received a few years ago which somehow used in its concluding paragraph the point that Al Gore had claimed he had invented the internet.

We spent the rest of that class period doing a little actual research. Took no more than a few minutes, thanks to Google, to find the CNN interview. Surprise, surprise.

But, as you say, it's out there. I was stunned to come across a reading exercise just this week which turned out to focus on the meaning of the word "bombast" in a sentence about Al Gore claiming to have invented the internet.

Posted by: CMcC on December 12, 2007 at 12:34 PM | PERMALINK

Martin: Al Gore initiated, supported and pushed legislation that facilitated the beginnings of the internet.

If you're going to use Stupid ass Republican talking points please choose those that a few seconds on Google don't discount!

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200009/msg00052.html

Posted by: Henk on December 12, 2007 at 12:36 PM | PERMALINK

Not only am I dismayed by the die-hard misguided notion that Iraq perpetrated the 9/11 tragedy, the quality of our incoming college students has obviously been degraded over the years. "The Iraq's", indeed!

Seriously, though, this kind of obtuseness is also the inevitable result of our society's subtle encouragement of intellectual incuriosity, i.e., the "dumbing down" of America, to the point where Americans in general no longer make any real attempt to differentiate between the world's peoples beyond generalities. Thus, all Arabs are Arabs, and not Sunni, Shia, Saudi Arabians, Iraqis and Syrians.

Posted by: Donald from Hawaii on December 12, 2007 at 12:37 PM | PERMALINK

Student's? They actually attend school?

Actually this isn't surprising to anybody who has ever watched any of Jay Leno's Jaywalking segment. It is, however, profoundly depressing.

Posted by: Corpus Juris on December 12, 2007 at 12:37 PM | PERMALINK

It wouldn't be so bad if a few students, jacked up on talk radio, clung to an alternate history in defiance of everything that is known. But these kids don't seem to have the emotional investment in the Republican fable about Iraq and 9/11. (cf the remark about forgiving Iraq for 9/11. Not exactly the neocon foreign policy.) If/when they were told what really happened, I'll just bet they weren't at all defensive.

This is obviously far worse, as it means that the Republicans haven't merely brainwashed their cult with their invented history, but have polluted the common discourse with it, so that casual observers of current events are prone to infection.

Posted by: kth on December 12, 2007 at 12:40 PM | PERMALINK

Way to go, Kevin. You broke Unfogged.

Posted by: zadfrack on December 12, 2007 at 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

No meme left behind.

Posted by: junebug on December 12, 2007 at 12:43 PM | PERMALINK

That's the most depressing thing I've read all week,

Did you see the recent predictions of icefree-arctic-ocean in summer of 2013? That's a significant revision to the timeline, and it might have some effect on Greenland's icecap. Waterfront property's not looking quite so good now.

So dang, who can we blame for the melting ice caps? I think it's the Canadians. All the politeness is just an act, to lull us into complacency.

Posted by: dr2chase on December 12, 2007 at 12:44 PM | PERMALINK

I infer from the high quality of our university education, of course, that all of these students received a failing grade on their papers due to lack of even the most cursory research on the topic.

Posted by: JimG on December 12, 2007 at 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

Perhaps you could change the link to point Rob Helpy-Chalk's Blogspot blog instead of to the Unfogged thread.

I suspect Blogspot can handle the wave of visitors better than Unfogged can.

Posted by: zadfrack on December 12, 2007 at 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

Apparently, we are ahead of the timeline laid out in Idiocracy.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on December 12, 2007 at 12:47 PM | PERMALINK

I added a comment at Crooked Timber wondering how students in, presumably, a poli-sci class could have gotten through the year without the teacher making it clear at some point that Iraq was not involved. I made sure of this two years ago when I last taugh a global politics class.

And yes, you can still fail students, even at private schools, though giving Ds is almost as satisfying.

Posted by: JeffII on December 12, 2007 at 12:50 PM | PERMALINK

But, you know, it wasn't these students who sat passively by while it was decided that we should attack Iraq. All of us who read newspapers knew that no connection had been found between Iraq and the attacks at the time. We had been attacked by terrorists from Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan was where the leadership was hiding out, and Cheney suddenly insisted that Iraq had a nuclear program and so that was the country the US needed to go after. This was all known at the time by politicians and all of those who bothered to follow the news.

Yet we let it happen.

Only those who watched Fox News, ironically, might be called blameless, since they were misinformed by that network, which told them that there was a connection.

So can we blame the students for expecting there to be some kind of logic behind American foreign policy?

Posted by: catherineD on December 12, 2007 at 12:52 PM | PERMALINK

O'Brien smiled faintly. 'You are no metaphysician, Winston,' he said.
'Until this moment you had never considered what is meant by existence. I
will put it more precisely. Does the past exist concretely, in space? Is
there somewhere or other a place, a world of solid objects, where the past
is still happening?'
'No.'
'Then where does the past exist, if at all?'
'In records. It is written down.'
'In records. And--?'
'In the mind. In human memories.'
'In memory. Very well, then. We, the Party, control all records, and
we control all memories. Then we control the past, do we not?'

Posted by: W. Smith on December 12, 2007 at 12:54 PM | PERMALINK

You can still give Fs in college, right?

No.

Posted by: gregor on December 12, 2007 at 12:54 PM | PERMALINK

JeffII: It's a philosophy class.

Posted by: zadfrack on December 12, 2007 at 12:54 PM | PERMALINK

Talk about being handed something on a silver platter! When students make such mistakes, and they always do, good teachers use the opportunity to create a memorable learning experience. Life improves. However, poor teachers, in the same situation, just go get a coffee and complain. Life goes downhill.

I don't see too many good teachers here.

Posted by: Bob M on December 12, 2007 at 1:02 PM | PERMALINK


Reminds me of the first semester I taught freshman English as a graduate assistant (yes, it was an accredited state university).

The very first essay I read was all about the "mud people."

Posted by: k on December 12, 2007 at 1:03 PM | PERMALINK

The effectiveness of this kind of propaganda demonstrates one of the chief characteristics of modern masses. They do not believe in anything visible, in the reality of their own experience; they do not trust their eyes and ears but only their imaginations, which may be caught by anything that is at once universal and consistent in itself. What convinces the masses are not facts, and not even invented facts, but only the consistency of the system of which they are presumably part. Repetition, somewhat overrated in importance because of the common belief in the masses’ inferior capacity to grasp and remember, is important only because it convinces them of consistency in time.

Hannah Arendt
Origins of Totalitarianism

Posted by: bellumregio on December 12, 2007 at 1:04 PM | PERMALINK

Feh. College kids have never been impressive on current events. My favorite quip on the subject came from a buddy who taught first year poli sci students at UC - in 1994, only two kids in one class knew that Newt Gingrich was the Speaker of the House.

These things are no more depressing now than they have ever been.

Posted by: Meerkat on December 12, 2007 at 1:04 PM | PERMALINK

The big lie still works. Who knows what the next one will be. Iranian nukes?

THe big lie keep enough of the populace scared, whittle away their rights, keep telling the lie over and over and over...

Big brother would be proud.

Bob O'Reilly
Cambridge MA

Posted by: Bob O'Reilly on December 12, 2007 at 1:07 PM | PERMALINK

If the schools aren't totally corrupted, then this is at least one place where Truth will out and those who do not adhere will be 'cut' -- leaving the way toward leadership positions open for only those who know and respect the Truth.

At least in theory...

Posted by: MarkH on December 12, 2007 at 1:10 PM | PERMALINK

Fail them.

Posted by: Rich on December 12, 2007 at 1:15 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, it makes perfect logical sense. There would have been no reason to invade Iraq unless they were behind 9/11. We did invade iraq, therefore they must have been behind 9/11.

Posted by: Virginia on December 12, 2007 at 1:20 PM | PERMALINK

JeffII: It's a philosophy class. Posted by: zadfrack

I saw that. I would have failed them anyway.

You can still give Fs in college, right?

No. Posted by: gregor

Yes you can. I gave two in that class as well as two Ds.

Posted by: JeffII on December 12, 2007 at 1:22 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, please, please! delete the Unfogged link. That tiny little site has crashed, and its little community is orphaned.

Posted by: John Emerson on December 12, 2007 at 1:27 PM | PERMALINK

I failed seven my last semester as a Biology instructor. At a community college. Not my problem if they are to obtuse or lazy to use the tutoring center or come see me during office hours.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on December 12, 2007 at 1:28 PM | PERMALINK

We can just take over the comments here at WM, Emerson, since it's all Kevin's fault.

Posted by: zadfrack on December 12, 2007 at 1:30 PM | PERMALINK

Or at least link to Crooked Timber instead. What, are you trying to convince Unfogged to abandon its ridiculously inefficient comments engine?

Posted by: mano negra on December 12, 2007 at 1:32 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks for changing the link, Kevin!

Posted by: zadfrack on December 12, 2007 at 1:35 PM | PERMALINK

i would give them all a C+. Dear Leader got the same grade and look where it got him...

I'm calling in sick to day. Let the substitute teach handle this. Yuck!

Posted by: bobbywally on December 12, 2007 at 1:40 PM | PERMALINK

All this in the same week we learn the press secretary to the POTUS doesn't even know what the Cuban Missile Crisis was.

World, enter the Handbasket. Next stop, Hell.

Posted by: Michael on December 12, 2007 at 1:48 PM | PERMALINK

Yes you can. I gave two in that class as well as two Ds.

That's good news. Long time ago I gave D to a student at an Ivy League in the Senior year and promptly got a call from the Chairman that she would not be doing engineering anyway. Disgusted, I did not give her a new exam as he had suggested, but changed everyone's grade.

Posted by: gregor on December 12, 2007 at 1:49 PM | PERMALINK

I doubt most professors would fail a paper based on one sentence clause; they usually worry about the paper's thesis a lot more. I'd expect them to put a note in there that says something like "ver. facts: ck AQ/Iraq associations ca. 2001 & document." They'd either have to correct it or come up with some right-wing think tankery as documentation, which the professor would then allow or not.


Posted by: latts on December 12, 2007 at 1:50 PM | PERMALINK

It certainly is sad that these 3 students are so clueless. President Bush never said that Iraq had attacked the Twin Towers, nor did Fox News, so they should be blameless.

High school was supposed to educate these students. Maybe their high schools should be held responsible for their ignorance.

Posted by: ex-liberal on December 12, 2007 at 1:52 PM | PERMALINK

"It certainly is sad that these 3 students are so clueless. President Bush never said that Iraq had attacked the Twin Towers, nor did Fox News, so they should be blameless."

Yeah, These Marine NCOs were certainly clueless idiots, too, huh?

I wonder where they, along with 70% of the country, got the idea that Iraq was behind al Qaeda?

Posted by: Meerkat on December 12, 2007 at 2:07 PM | PERMALINK

I failed seven my last semester....

Comparing that to my record, I felt really good for a moment, until I realized Blue Gal was the instructor and I was just a student.

Posted by: jerry on December 12, 2007 at 2:08 PM | PERMALINK

It certainly is sad that these 3 students are so clueless. President Bush never said that Iraq had attacked the Twin Towers, nor did Fox News, so they should be blameless.

Sure he did; he insinuated as much in speech after speech after speech. "The terrorists attacked us and that's why we have to have regime change in Iraq" and " Saddam is working with Al Qaeda" and Fox News happily perpetuated the meme.

You are one miserable, shameless liar to assert otherwise.

"We know that Iraq and the al Qaeda terrorist network share a common enemy -- the United States of America. We know that Iraq and al Qaeda have had high-level contacts that go back a decade. Some al Qaeda leaders who fled Afghanistan went to Iraq. These include one very senior al Qaeda leader who received medical treatment in Baghdad this year, and who has been associated with planning for chemical and biological attacks. We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases. And we know that after September the 11th, Saddam Hussein's regime gleefully celebrated the terrorist attacks on America. "
George W. Bush

Posted by: trex on December 12, 2007 at 2:10 PM | PERMALINK

I doubt most professors would fail a paper based on one sentence clause; they usually worry about the paper's thesis a lot more. Posted by: latts

Of course. But chances are that students this clueless about the number one U.S. problem since 2002 are probably not very swift to begin with (or business majors, which is, of course, being redundant).

Posted by: JeffII on December 12, 2007 at 2:13 PM | PERMALINK

And when these same kids go to the polls who do you think they are going to vote for.Can we give a simple test at the polls Ask who attacked us on 911 and Is Bush a good leader.If they say Iraq to the first question you don't get to vote.If you say yes to the second question you get free medical help from a shrink.

Posted by: john john on December 12, 2007 at 2:14 PM | PERMALINK

Uh, home schooling?

Fox never asserted Iraq was involved in 9-11? I wonder--how could they have resisted the temptation for lo these many years? (Bet they haven't.)

How about Iraq being behind Oklahoma City? There ya go, Skippy:

http://www.jaynadavis.com/fn.html

Posted by: trollhattan on December 12, 2007 at 2:21 PM | PERMALINK

You are one miserable, shameless liar to assert otherwise.

Of course he is. As trex points out, "ex-liberal" points to the fact that Bush was careful not to explictly state that Iraq was behind 9/11 while dishonestly ignoring the fact that the Administration's statements were designed to imply as much.

"ex-liberal"'s bad faith is even more evident in light of the revelations of how the Administration's statements changed -- again, to imply a nuclear threat from Iraq without explicitly declaring so -- after the recent NIE was released.

But then, "ex-liberal" doesn't come here to post in good faith, but to insult us with repetitive bullshit neocon propaganda. Although the likelihood that the neocon's hunger for the Administration to bamboozle the US to expend its lives and treasure in yet another attack on a regional rival of the State of Israel has collapsed after the NIE revelations seems to have taken some of the wind out of his sails, "ex-liberal" does still console himself with his psychodrama here (emphasis on the "psycho", of course).

The question is, why do Kevin's moderator(s) continue to tolerate "ex-liberal"'s pissing on the floor in here?

Posted by: Gregory on December 12, 2007 at 2:33 PM | PERMALINK

Only three? That's pretty good, really, unless it was a small seminar.

Posted by: Stuart Eugene Thiel on December 12, 2007 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK

My favorite quip on the subject came from a buddy who taught first year poli sci students at UC - in 1994, only two kids in one class knew that Newt Gingrich was the Speaker of the House.

That's pretty amazing, particularly when you consider that Gingrich didn't become Speaker until 1995 . . .

Posted by: rea on December 12, 2007 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK

My good friend Gregory, the gentleman from Indiana: I'm pretty sure it's because you keep asking that question. The moderator, I suspect, is a little cranky that way.

Posted by: shortstop on December 12, 2007 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK

I'm pretty sure it's because you keep asking that question.

I respectfully rise to disagree with the delegate from Illinios..."ex-liberal"'s insulting bad faith gets a free pass whether I comment on his bullshit or not.

Posted by: Gregory on December 12, 2007 at 2:40 PM | PERMALINK

On the tombstone of the Republic will be the epitaph "Killed By A Story Arc".

Posted by: Davis X. Machina on December 12, 2007 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK

I noticed a couple of his comments got yanked down yesterday, Gregory. They were along the lines of "The Surge worked splendidly! Better than we could have imagined!"

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on December 12, 2007 at 2:47 PM | PERMALINK

Even more depressing is the fact that the prof. didn't mark the students down for putting something so factually inaccurate in their papers. Unless it was a freakin' fiction writing class, he should have taken off some points.

Posted by: kc on December 12, 2007 at 2:48 PM | PERMALINK

My colleague from next door in the Hoosier State: Fair enough. I shall stand down.

Posted by: shortstop on December 12, 2007 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK

It certainly is sad that these 3 students are so clueless. President Bush never said that Iraq had attacked the Twin Towers, nor did Fox News, so they should be blameless.

Yes, you'd have to be a complete idiot to associate Iraq with 9/11:

WASHINGTON -- In his prime-time press conference last week, which focused almost solely on Iraq, President Bush mentioned Sept. 11 eight times. He referred to Saddam Hussein many more times than that, often in the same breath with Sept. 11.

Okay, maybe that wasn't fair. After all, that was in March of 2003. I mean, it was crystal clear -- at that time anyway -- that Saddam's fingerprints were all over the 9/11 blueprints. That was then, this is now, and only a total moron would still see connections between Iraq & 9/11, right?

WASHINGTON -- Struggling to stem growing opposition to his Iraq policy even among Republicans, President Bush contended anew Tuesday that the perpetrators of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States are the same as al-Qaida in Iraq, a violent insurgent group that didn't exist until after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

Posted by: junebug on December 12, 2007 at 2:50 PM | PERMALINK

As several people noted above, the students who demonstrated such appalling ignorance of recent American history need to fail and be kicked out of school. If the purpose of secondary education is to teach people to think and to reason through issues, these students clearly are not cutting it. The world needs burger-flippers and toilet cleaners, too. They should NOT be rewarded for such stunning ignorance and gross misunderstanding of the linkages and lack of linkages between current events.

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on December 12, 2007 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK

OT: Ugh, I can't get the image of that old Huckabee family Christmas card out of my mind. Perhaps a sledgehammer or some extra-strength Comet on my brain will help.

Posted by: shortstop on December 12, 2007 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK

Perhaps a sledgehammer or some extra-strength Comet on my brain will help.

I suggest a bunch of bad movies...the effect is more or less the same.

(It's also the remedy offered in the William Gibson short story "The Gernsback Continuum.")

Posted by: Gregory on December 12, 2007 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, goof Ford! I just opened it. My eyes!

Posted by: Gregory on December 12, 2007 at 3:03 PM | PERMALINK

A lot of people have been telling me that I should have failed these students or expelled them or beaten them into submission or something. In fact, I didn't even mark them down, because in each case it was an aside or an example in a larger argument.

Also, I should clarify that one of the students didn't say 9/11. He said "all the terrorism that has happened." I told him to clarify what he meant in the next draft of his paper, and specifically asked if he thought Saddam Hussein was behind terrorist attacks on the US. Unfortunately that whole section of his paper was unchanged in the next draft.

I teach at a community college in a less than affluent part of Ohio. I have to meet my students where they are.

Posted by: rob helpy-chalk on December 12, 2007 at 3:12 PM | PERMALINK

Okay, Rob, but we presume that you at least explained the reality of 9/11 to them?

Posted by: shortstop on December 12, 2007 at 3:14 PM | PERMALINK

Apparently none of the shocked and surprised on here have ever taught college freshmen rhet. This is all par for the course. Most suburban drones never engage in any critical thinking until they get to college, and many avoid it even then.

Posted by: Disputo on December 12, 2007 at 3:19 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, of course, I said that Iraq was not behind 9/11.

Posted by: rob helpy-chalk on December 12, 2007 at 3:21 PM | PERMALINK

I teach at a community college in a less than affluent part of Ohio. I have to meet my students where they are. Posted by: rob helpy-chalk

You might have made this clear from the outset, and put rest this tempest in a teapot. I don't think one can expect much more from most CC students in a lot of the country. That being said, I still would have made a point of bringing up the subject and correcting their misconceptions (or at least make sure they stay away from the polls this next Fall).

Posted by: JeffII on December 12, 2007 at 3:22 PM | PERMALINK

shortstop:

Oh my God, that is just hideous. Sooie! It is gonna be hog-callin’ time at the White House if these porkers end up as the First Family! Where are his porcine sons these days - guest hosting the Rush Dimbulb Show? I really like Huckabee's lack of dental hygiene too. I guess that nasty feature appeals to all the toothless retards living in the Deep South, as well. Old Snaggletooth wouldn't even have to dress up to participate in a Middle Ages re-enactment. Put him in a grey cowl and he is perfect to play Quasimodo in the next White House skit.

TCD

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on December 12, 2007 at 3:24 PM | PERMALINK

More news on the schools (down South anyway)

from www.heraldonline.com
12/12/2007

A woman who homeschools her four daughters has been elected head of the board that oversees public schools in South Carolina.

Kristin Maguire of Clemson was voted chairwoman-elect for the State Board of Education on Wednesday. She is scheduled to become chairwoman in 2009.

Posted by: muddylee on December 12, 2007 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINK

I hope this prof is downgrading these papers in accordance with their gross inaccuracy. If the prof is letting the BIG lie slide and still giving good grades, then the prof is feeding and rewarding the LIE.

Posted by: Praedor Atrebates on December 12, 2007 at 3:34 PM | PERMALINK

A woman who homeschools her four daughters has been elected head of the board that oversees public schools in South Carolina. Kristin Maguire of Clemson was voted chairwoman-elect for the State Board of Education on Wednesday. She is scheduled to become chairwoman in 2009.Posted by: muddylee

On a similar note, before he became an award winning "author," David Guterson (Snow Falling On Cedars) used to teach in the Bainbridge Islands public schools but home schooled his own kids. Fuck him.

Posted by: JeffII on December 12, 2007 at 3:44 PM | PERMALINK

You might have made this clear from the outset, and put rest this tempest in a teapot.

The original post was a comment on a thread where most people know me. I didn't expect it to go up the food chain like this.

Posted by: rob helpy-chalk on December 12, 2007 at 3:47 PM | PERMALINK

The original post was a comment on a thread where most people know me. I didn't expect it to go up the food chain like this.Posted by: rob helpy-chalk

Yes. It seems that CT should have shown better judgment linking to you like this.

As I've shared with another poster here, CC students are CC students for a reason. Outrage is less appropriate under the circumstances than resignation and a shrug of the shoulders. Please accept my apologies.

Posted by: JeffII on December 12, 2007 at 3:55 PM | PERMALINK

I'm going to defend CC's. First of all, they are an affordable alternative for kids whose parents can't afford to send them to a university for all four years, but can't get adequate financial aid. They are also good for who aren't sure what they want to do.

Our youngest went to a CC at 15 and graduated at 17, then went on to a university and graduating with a masters at 20. She just didn't do high-school well, and we home schooled her. (But then, how many homeschooled kids are taught at home by a working scientific researcher and an electrical engineer, both with masters degrees?)

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State (aka G.C.) on December 12, 2007 at 4:16 PM | PERMALINK

You can still give Fs in college, right?
Posted by: digitusmedius
No, that is damaging to self-esteem, especially to minorities. Are you a racist?

Posted by: Luther on December 12, 2007 at 4:46 PM | PERMALINK

Say what you will, but "the Iraq's" is priceless, just as it was when Miss Teen South Carolina talked about them.

It's spooky that the phrase seems to be making the rounds among the young and un-clued. What is it supposed to mean? What is its presumably evil purpose?

Posted by: frankly0 on December 12, 2007 at 4:55 PM | PERMALINK

I can't get the image of that old Huckabee family Christmas card out of my mind

I just opened it. My eyes!

Ooooh, I really like those shirts gentlemen. Wherever did you buy them?

Posted by: Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat on December 12, 2007 at 5:10 PM | PERMALINK

Wait a minute. Iraq wasn't behind 9/11 ?!!?

Posted by: Mike Huckabee on December 12, 2007 at 5:14 PM | PERMALINK

Ooooh, I really like those shirts gentlemen. Wherever did you buy them? Posted by: Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat

Hey, they live in Arkansas, where do you think?

Posted by: JeffII on December 12, 2007 at 5:14 PM | PERMALINK

[take your garden-variety trolling elsewhere - mod.]

Posted by: mr insensitive on December 12, 2007 at 5:19 PM | PERMALINK

Ooooh, I really like those shirts gentlemen.

Three of them, with pinstripes and elbow patches.

Say what you will, they're not gay. Or they're really overcompensating.

Posted by: frankly0 on December 12, 2007 at 5:42 PM | PERMALINK

OT: Ugh, I can't get the image of that old Huckabee family Christmas card out of my mind. Perhaps a sledgehammer or some extra-strength Comet on my brain will help.
Posted by: shortstop on December 12, 2007 at 2:56 PM

..OR Maybe some extra-strength Ajax would do the trick?

Posted by: Doc at the Radar Station on December 12, 2007 at 6:57 PM | PERMALINK

let us not be confused. if my memory serves me accurately, 40% of the electorate thinks that the governments of afghanistan and iraq were the real perpetrators of the events of 11/09/01.

you don't have to be a student to be ignorant.

and you don't have to be a benighted individual from some third world USA public education entity. i attended a very well regarded private country day school in central ohio. i would wager that its student body is 15%-25%[maybe higher]comprised of jews. academically, these individuals are at the top of the food chain.

though the school is nominally non-sectarian [teachers and admin are virtually 100% white-bread christian], over the last six years the alumni magazine has contained at least 3 essays by jewish students that have advocated the invasions of afghanistan, iraq; the widespread torturing of muslims; the equation that muslims are all terrorists.

in the history of this school, these essays are unprecedented. and no essays contradicting these pov's have been published. neither have any letters of protest[i know that mine was suppressed].

there is a part of my brain that sees a dershowitzian virus infecting all of what we thought to be the safeguards of our society.

but it was ever thus. i attended this school in the mccarthy and post-mccarthy era. and it was always a haven for fascist bastids.

the fight to preserve liberty, freedom, and the constitution is an unending one. the strange aspect to this latest struggle is that so many jews have become the fascist bastids. and to combat them invokes the cry of "anti-semite". a pejorative tantamount to the labels tagged onto the anti-fascists of the past: "communist", "nigger-lover".

sic semper tyrannis.

Posted by: albertchampion on December 12, 2007 at 7:45 PM | PERMALINK

is this for real? the only way i can buy into ignorance at this level, would be perhaps the lower 10 percentile of liberty university student class of 2011.

Posted by: lawrenceluey on December 12, 2007 at 8:12 PM | PERMALINK

What I find amazing is they zoom right past Afghanistan.

Posted by: Ya Know... on December 12, 2007 at 8:21 PM | PERMALINK

The problem is not that they believe Iraq was behind 9/11. The real problem is, once these people are shown evidence to the contrary, they just say that the media lies, and they go on believing what they want.

Posted by: dr sardonicus on December 12, 2007 at 8:44 PM | PERMALINK

It wasn't garden variety trolling, it was primo deluxe trolling.

Posted by: mr insensitive on December 12, 2007 at 9:22 PM | PERMALINK

Haven't you heard. It really was Iran. EYE-RAN.

Posted by: ds on December 12, 2007 at 9:57 PM | PERMALINK

OT: Ugh, I can't get the image of that old Huckabee family Christmas card out of my mind. Perhaps a sledgehammer or some extra-strength Comet on my brain will help.

Looks more like "Guvnah Hick-a-bee" to me.

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on December 12, 2007 at 11:11 PM | PERMALINK

Don't feel bad professor, just give them an F; Then write the word "fiction" on the paper and have them redo it.


Posted by: James on December 13, 2007 at 12:29 AM | PERMALINK

It wasn't garden variety trolling, it was primo deluxe trolling.

Don't flatter yeourself, minion; you don't add anything to the foums but bullshit neocon talking poitns, end we have enough of that to fertilize Kansas.

But speaking primo deluxe neocon delusions, how about supporting a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_12/012682.php#1186230">your ridiculous assertion that " Osama bragged he had cost us a trillion dollars in one day, and Saddam would have cost us more than that many times over, even in the best case scenario, if we hadn't taken him out"?

It's just awesome to see you spinning so hard to try to justify Bush's incompetence and mendacity. Tell us, minion of Rove, how does if feel to see the Bush Administration spoil the GOP's decades-long branding effort on defense, not to mention the neocon's ambitions and the GOP's electoral prospects for a generation?

Posted by: Gregory on December 13, 2007 at 9:07 AM | PERMALINK

They must not be too bright!! Tells you something about Americans.

Posted by: AniTa on January 13, 2008 at 11:24 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

Read Jonathan Rowe remembrance and articles
Email Newsletter icon, E-mail Newsletter icon, Email List icon, E-mail List icon Sign up for Free News & Updates

Advertise in WM



buy from Amazon and
support the Monthly