Great. Now we have another controversy that will divide us rather than unite us.

Do you mean a short middle I?

The only thing we have to fear is mispronunciation and misunderestimating our opponents.

I've always pronounced it with the short middle I (div-IH-sive), and thought everyone else who pronounced it the other way (div-EYE-sive) was wrong. Heh.

I've noticed the same shift in pronunciation over the past few years, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who missed the memo.

Seriously, the shift is toward the British pronunciation. I'm not saying that's right, or that it's wrong. (But, personally, I think it's a bit more snobbishness by some than it is simply a matter of poe-tay-toe, pah-tah-tah, whatever.)

Granmere: Oops. Yes, that's what I meant. It was not my intent to inject even more divisiveness into this discussion.

One nation, indiv-eye-sible?

heh as well. When everyone was interviewing Wright's successor at Trinity, I couldn't get past the way he pronounced 'pulpit'. POOL-pit. Like a pit you play pool in. But I figured it was a regional thing, like 'Ahnt' instead of 'Ant' for 'aunt'.

The Prairie Angel

K: I looked up the word in the Cambridge dictionary, and they used the long-I pronunciation. So I figured it wasn't a creeping British-ism. Anybody British readers care to weigh in?

C'mon, Kevin, short-i divisive is the hip way to say it!

Canadian here, always heard it with a short 'i'.

I don't think it matters as long as you put the emPHASis on the right syLABle....

He's a cosmopolitan guy. He might not remember where he picked it up, but it doesn't demand a full-scale investigation.

Seriously, short-i divisive is the midwestern and probably northeastern pronunciation. Long "i" is characteristic in the Ohio Valley and the South. "Rio Grande" in southern Ohio is "rye-o" grand.

I don't know about divisive, but I can't get enough of the BBC broadcasters talking about "BAYR-ack Obama."

I think Kevin is right--this is trivial

Know what you mean, Kev. I always did long div-EYE-sion in school, too. But kids these days, the way they talk, it's just rid-EYE-culous.

It used to be div-EYE ive but 9/11 changed everything.

Random House gives both, with -EYE- first and -IH- second. I presume the latter is taught at Hahvad.

Now, I just looked this up in several dictionaries, and it is, in fact, listed that way as an alternate pronunciation in many of them.

Me too.
I thought I had a gotcha. Damnit!

Oh noe's!! You've discovered the code word for the start of the Black Revolution. It's too late Whitey. Hide the white women.

If that's how they say it in Canada, maybe it's a midwestern thing. I don't like it. Not one bit!

There may be something to the regional argument. I'm from the northeast and have always pronounced it with a short i.

I've noticed a similar shift with harassment. It used to be her-ass-ment and now is hair-is-ment. And then there's Uranus.

Yes. There was a memo. But it referred to it as an 'alternative' pronunciation (not 'alternate').

that's code for "I'll support the tradition of screwing the people whilst feeding comfy lies to the rude plebe!"

It was in the same memo that switched the pronunciation of ha-RASS-ment to HAR-ass-ment.

One Nation,

Undergod

In-Deye-veyes-sable

In-duh-duh-vasable.

Oh what the heck, "the Constitution is just a goddam piece of paper.!"

I say thee, ye says y'all, youse says yo!

Time for OHB to talk about Black English.

Just as long as we don't go to div-id instead of div-eye-de. If you think of all the various permutations, then either way would seem to be ok.
I.e. Dividend, divisive, divide, division, etc.

More diversions at 11....
(Is that D-eye-versions or D-ih-versions? oh-never mind!)

I felt exactly the same way when I discovered that a "g" had been somehow added to "whine" and its variants.

Yeah, he also said irreVOCable when he meant irREVocable. And to think that I actually considered voting for him. Hmph.

I'm not sure I buy this regional dialect hypothesis. I'm from the northeast and it's been div-EYE-sive for as long as I can remember.

I'm glad someone else noticed this. I thought I was going insane.

This blogger gave a poll back in '05 that finds for di-VICE-ive. Evidently Tom Daschle uses di-vih-sive.

If it is a Midwestern thing, it isn't the standard in Minnesota.

This reminds me of the 60's when some pronounced it Viet Nam (as in ham) or Viet Nom (as in bomb)
The "hawks" were one way and the "doves" the other. But I'll be damned if I can remember which was whaich!

Could be a regionalism, or maybe there is just someone floating around in powerful political circles today who pronouces in that way, and everyone else admires that person's diction or charcter, so it's catching on.

. . . or maybe there is just someone floating around in powerful political circles today who pronouces in that way, and everyone else admires that person's diction or charcter, so it's catching on.

In which case it would also be a regionalism-- but maybe Obama is the one who's getting this "caught-on"-- maybe the others you've heard using it are "macking off of him," as people from my generation put it.

Viet Nam, rhymes with ham, was the anti-war way to pronounce it, as in the Country Joe and the Fish song:

Don't ask me I don't give a damn/
Next stop is Viet Nam!

Great. Now we have another controversy that will divide us rather than unite us.

lol.

Seriously, I think it is a mid-west regionalism. I noticed it as well.

Bush always pronounces it the way Obama did today.

I'm from Florida, have a very mild southern accent, and say it with a short i.

Obama is probably a little proud of the way he talks- so maybe he's proud of his diction, too, and of pronouncing a few words in a less-common (but still correct) way he thinks is cool.

Maybe people who don't like him picked up on it and decided to "be seen" saying it that way, so Obama doesn't get to feel so much like he's cool and the only one, and it's getting "caught on" that way.

If you think that's unrealistic, you've never met a hare-brained, petty person.

Sounds like an Muslim pronounciation to me!

Another Canadian here.

I have heard it pronounced both ways. Up here we often have two legitimate spelling for several words (labour, labor / color, colour) reflecting the British spelling and the American.

I always assumed that the differences in the pronunciations (pro nun ciation or pro noun ciation) reflected the British or American standard way of saying divisive.

Now I am curious, does anyone know how the Brits pronounce divisive?

I've noticed the short-i pronunciation on TV in recent years. It's caught on with the political class for some reason. It always used to be long-i.

Sounds like an Muslim pronounciation to me!

Arabic doesn't have a "V" sound. Silly Inf-eye-del.

Geez, Kevin, where you been, man? Too much time blogging and not enough listening, I guess.

The short i is probably less common, but not terribly rare.

This drives me crazy. It is rampant among the Washington commentariat. I have sent pedantic comments to several of them. I thought it was definitely an over-the-pondism.

And while we're at it, what about Chris Matthews's insistence on ChEEney? He pronouces so many ordinary things wrong (like Newt GINrich), that I don't know why he insists on this obscure pronounciation of the Cheney's family name, which even the VEEP's office disavows.

If a memo went out, eee missed it too.

If a memo went out, eee missed it too.

The Brits say div-eye-sive (at least the ones in my part of the country). First we have Bush saying new-queue-ler. Now this. If we can't trust Obama on pronunciation what can we trust him on? (Note for the Obama groupies: this is a joke.)

FYI, the Boston Globe's "The Word" column covered just this topic this past Sunday: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/16/over_involved/ (see the second half of the column)

I've always pronounced it the way he did, too.

Whatever. If this country survived eight years of "nuk-u-lar," we can handle this divisiveness.

This reminds me of the 60's when some pronounced it Viet Nam (as in ham)

Every time some idjit says Eye-Rack I want to scream. Well, I did the first 10,000 times, anyway.

Sounds like an Muslim pronounciation to me!

Arabic doesn't have a "V" sound. Silly Inf-eye-del.

Hee.

Swan: If you think that's unrealistic, you've never met a hare-brained, petty person.

No, really, we have.

NPR uses the long i.

Probably the biggest two pronunciation shocks I received when staying in Southern England were their pronunciation of "controversy" and "Dynasty." They had our TV show "Dynasty" showing in England at the time and they still pronounced the name "Dinasty" with a short i sound rhyming with Tinasty.

Their pronunciation of "controversy" I can't even describe well.

You'll be glad to know I upheld the proud tradition of being an American and corrected them all immediately.

My own pet peeve as far as pronunciation is concerned is when news reporters say resource but use a zee for the s in the word. If they want to live in Britain then apply for a visa and move.

shortstop on March 18, 2008 at 4:05:
No, really, we have.
LOL

They had our TV show "Dynasty" showing in England at the time and they still pronounced the name "Dinasty" with a short i sound rhyming with Tinasty.

The whole time I lived in London, I had a hard time not bursting into laughter when I was instructed to take my vittamins and use aspirin to treat my meegraines. I don't know why I thought that was funny. I just did.

Now, I just looked this up in several dictionaries, and it is, in fact, listed that way as an alternate pronunciation in many of them. But until recently, I've never heard anyone actually say it this way. It's always been div-eye-siv. Did a memo go out or something that I missed?

And who hasn't been moved to tears when Elton John sings "Hold Me Closer, Tinny Dancer?" I know the tinyboppers in the audience all screamed when I saw him.

But we shouldn't make fun of our neighbors across the pond. They were nice enough to name their country after our language.

When someone says "eyeRack" or worse yet "eyeRock" I imagine they are saying "I ignorant" and I agree with them. It keeps me out of fights.

For any Brits in here - I can understand "Cheerios" being called "Loops" over there because of the "Cheerio, pip pip" thing, but no one ever could explain to me why the "Where's Waldo" books are titled "Where's Wally" in England.

And why is the product "Oil of Olay" called "Oil of Ulay" in England? Actually forget that last one. I don't even know what "Oil of Olay" is supposed to mean or where Olay is so I suppose any name at all will do.

Humphrey Littleton, on the BBC radio "Best of Jazz" program, describes people like John Coltrane as sax-AHH-fon-ists.

snopes discussion on similar topic is here,

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=006539;p=1

Humphrey Littleton, on the BBC radio "Best of Jazz" program, describes people like John Coltrane as sax-AHH-fon-ists.

No way!

That is strangely appealing.

But we shouldn't make fun of our neighbors across the pond. They were nice enough to name their country after our language.

Oh I dunno, they started it. They've got TV shows over their with titles like "Those Wacky Americans" where they cherry pick the oddest of the odd from the US and laugh at us.

They also had the TV sitcom "Hogan's Heroes" dubbed in German in Germany which was really, really weird to watch.

Let's call the whole thing off.

Great, now do we have to change how we say "decisive"? dee-SISS-iv? Fuhgeddabowdit.

Is divisive the new nuclear?

My Father always used the short "eye". He was from Portland, Maine, and born in 1897. Perhaps it is or was a New England pronunciation. Isometimes use that variation.

Robert

Nevermind divisive, the real question is - Is it Inkblot or Eyenkblot.

One thing's for sure:

This is an historic comment thread.

I demand the he renounce the pronunciation! Or at least pronounce the renunciation.

This just shows how arrogant and divisive and hateful Obama really is ... and his disdain for everyone who doesn't talk like he does. He is trying to divide the Democrats into different camps based on vowels and stuff!

This is GOOD FOR HILLARY!!!!!!! YAAAAAAAAAHHH!

Yes, Kevin, a memo did go out. Divisive with a short middle "i" is the preferred pronunciation of the literati and the elite.

Apparently you DID miss the memo. Bill Buckley would NEVER have overlooked that one.

There's always 10 percent who miss the memo, you know. Kevin, DO try to avoid being in the 10 percent, won't you?

Bob at 4:30:
I've been waiting for someone to do it.

Weenie:
Only doe-my'-no knows the answer.

The crazy thing is, nobody's mentioned that Obama said it both ways in the same speech. Early in the speech he said it with a long I, and then much later he said it twice with a short I. I have it running on YouTube, timestamps to come.

6:17 - divisive, long I
8:26 - divisive, short I

Martin,
Its obvious that by pronouncing it both ways, Obama is pandering to both sides of the grammatical divide that festers in the backrooms of this country.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, which I think we all know is far more authoritative and electable than the mangy Cambridge one mentioned above, it's a long 'i' with no fudging. Clearly Obama's pronunciation is an attempt to undermine the special relationship, and very probably a dog whistle to black separatists who reject our Anglo-American heritage.

This whole discussion is try-vial.

I've always pronounced it with a short middle i. I think it just depends on where you grew up and how you learned it.

Weldon,
"mangy Cambridge one". What are you trying to start another fight on this blog. What a grammar baiter you are.

Next time you feel the urge to blog on something this innane, post picture of Inkblot and Domino instead.

Not only do your comments unnecessarily diminish what I thought was a personally painful, humbling, honest but still very necessary speech on Sen. Obama's part, but such emarrassingly petty remarks was reminiscent of a cruel scene in the 1966 film Up the Down Staircase, wherein a vain and heartless high school English teacher coldly proceeds to simultaneously mock and dissect the flawed grammar of his admiring student, whose essay had laid bare to him her heart and soul.

I always learned that a short IQ and a short 'i' go hand-in-hand.

Yeah, Donald is here.

So Donald, your thoughts on the speech?

Here's one to try pronouncing: detritus.

I always thought it was Deh-trih-tus, accent on the first syllable, but it's deh-treye-tus, accent on the middle syllable.

Now I wish the memo would go out on when to use "its" versus "it's".

Oil of Olay was invented by Oleg Cassini (joke).

It's is a contraction of it is. Its is the possessive form of it - The horse had a smile on its face. It's a horse.

Grandmothers know these things.

It's its own contraction.

Not for me, re it's/its, but thanx. I find that misuse is endemic in blogs.... I wish the memo would go out to all bloggers (except for Kevin, who is almost always quite precise in his use of language.)

Well, I heard Obama say "divisive" once in that speech and he pronounced it the normal way.
.

Clearly, Obama is a flip-flopper.

Not only do your comments unnecessarily diminish ...

Oh, noes! We're hurting the candidate! I know 'cause some dipshit troll told me so.
.

repeated without comment ;)

almost always quite precise

prec-ih-sely

I've always said it with the short "i". maybe it depends on what part of the country you are from. I guess when pressed I'd say it's like "division"...you don't say "div-eye-zhun" do you?

It's not a midwestern thing, you untraveled snobs.

As an ExBrit I can tolerate all mispronunciations except one: why does the media pronounce Colin Powell as Coelin? It's Cohlin, for cod's sake! COLIN! NOT COELIN!!

optical weenie: "So Donald, your thoughts on the speech?"

Didn't I just say what I thought about it a few minutes ago?

Obama did what he had to do, given the prevailing circumstances, and even though he looked like he wished he was anyplace else but up there on that podium. But given the turn of events over the past few days, I believe that he faced some uncomfortable truths about both himself and the taciturn nature of his campaign with honesty, dignity, grace and composure.

Whether that'll be enough to quiet the baying hounds, your guess is as good as mine. One can only hope that the good senator learned a valuable lesson about political pitfalls inherent in race-baiting, even if some of his more vociferous admirers haven't as of yet. He's most certain to be a better man and candidate for it if he did. And if that's truly the case -- and time will tell -- then as far as I'm concerned, this issue is over and done with.

Aloha.

Shortstop wrote: No, really, we have.

For all of you who don't follow the comments regularly on this blog, there was a period a few months ago when, for weeks, a few commenters (principally shortstop and Blue Girl, Red State) posted a bunch of harassing comments, over and over again, criticizing my comments (the same kind of normal, helpful comments I post here every day) every single day. They apparently gave it up when it started to look weird, but it outed them as trolls, since anyone who follows the comments every day could see that I didn't deserve that treatment from them at all, and they were just being jackasses.

So I think shortstop is trying to tease me about his being a hare-brained, petty person, and that is what he is referring to.

Just to keep you all in the loop.

Back on topic:

i hate when conservative, suburban white guys, pronounce "flag" or "family" with an affected, long a, really effeminately. It makes them sound ridiculous.

I spent my first 30 years in the UK, mostly, and m,y last 30 years mostly here. I've always pronounced it with the short "I." All 3 of them. But I thought most Americans did the same.

You moronic little twerp, leave me the hell out of your self-aggrandizing blather. No one gives a rat's ass what you have to say, nor does anyone find your commentary "helpful." When you were not commenting there for a bit, no one said "Gee, I miss Swan." - and for Christ's sake, at least once a week someone says they miss tbrosz!

If there is any Jackassery going on, it is emanating from you, you stupid little fuck.

Ebonics.

Swan,
Please report the the nursing station. It's time for your medication.

Swan: "[shortstop and Blue Girl apparently gave it up when it started to look weird, but it outed them as trolls ..."

Just to clear up what is obviously a misconception on your part, neither of them are, or can in the remotest possibly way be considered as, "trolls." Period.

Luther, that's very insightful.

nurse ratched: "Swan, Please report the the nursing station. It's time for your medication."

Last I saw, he was in the lounge, whining about not getting his cigarettes ...

Whoa Blue Girl, what was that? A tornado straight outta the midwest!

Man I can feel your power thru the intertoobz straight through to the pacific northwest.

I guess we're all trolls, now. Eh, Swan?

I just happened to wander through when I got bored looking for stuff for tonights roundup, and I see I'm being called out by that little jerk? Please.

And I haven't even been commenting much lately - I've been busy.

Maybe Obama is part Canadian eh?

Div-eh-sive.

If we are all trolls, then I want to be the purple haired one that lived under a bridge.

Jane: I've always pronounced it with the short "I."

Heh, I've always pronounced "it" with a short i as well. Same for "it's" and "its"--short i. short i. I think most English speakers do.

Eet's too comeecal to theenk of using a long i in "its"--like Peter Lorre or something--though I remember one joke whose punch line was "eef you put a sheet on my bed, I weell keel you."

I think it is cunning subliminal programming to pronounce divisive as "divihsive" not di-veye-sive. It sets the stage for the meaning of "divisive" to evoke "submissive" or "dismissive" or even "revisit."

Short I divisive has the ring of Oxbridge to me. Somewhat snobbish, Bertie Wooster and Jeeves, with the intention to enforce or increase social distance between upstairs and downstairs.

Probably just ebonics in this case though. I wonder how you say 'We surrender abjectly' in Iraqi?

anon?

There is no Iraqi language.
Just thought I'd mention that.

Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, Obama is Bertie Wooster speaking Ebonics.

You fucking moron.

PTate: using a long i in "its"-
Actually, eet's to force us to accept the crimaliens like Speedy Gonzales in our midst.

Swan, you ignorant little fuck--they don't like you at Daily Kos very much do they?

Would you like to have some of your greatest hits from over there appropriated to here so we can get a belly laugh from the people over there who think you're the stupidest little shit alive?

Would that help you figure out just how "appreciated" you are in all circles? Because with just a little searching, I can find examples where an exasperated and tired people have completely and utterly rejected your half-wit ways and your pseudo-educated wankery.

Can I get a second to that motion from the assembly?

I'd vote no, Pale. I suspect Swan thrives on abuse and the sense of being persecuted for his sad version of "truth telling." Best just to ignore him. Except when he insults Blue Girl or shortstop, of course.

"Great. Now we have another controversy that will divide us rather than unite us."

Maybe it will only divid us.

::Blushing:: Thank you, Gentlemen. Always a pleasure to be in your company!

You're such a little delicate flower, Blue Girl. You need defending. (snort)

I wish to apologize to Randy G. I thought you were asking about its/it's. I didn't mean to condescend.

It's the teacher in me. ;-)

You guys make my days. Thank you.

Sigh.

Swan, every time someone criticizes you--and people always do, everywhere you post, despite your apparent need to believe that Blue Girl and I represent some sort of hideous cabal out for your blood--you put it down to trollery or secret Republicans who fear your liberal message.

The definition of "troll" is not "someone who thinks Swan is an idiot." The definition of "Republican" is not "someone who doesn't think Swan adds anything to the progressive conversation."

Instead of taking every bit of snark directed your way as evidence of the rest of the world being your myriad detractors may have a point? Is it more likely that you have a problem or that everyone else uniformly fails to understand your genius? Wait, don't answer that yet. Think about it for a moment first.

It means facing the uncomfortable reality that the common denominator in your constant failure to attract positive attention is you, but you're going to have to do that some time, you know.

Mea culpa--bad editing. This should have been:

Instead of taking every bit of snark directed your way as evidence of the rest of the world being crazy, why not consider that your myriad detractors may have a point? Is it more likely that you have a problem or that everyone else uniformly fails to understand your genius?

How do you pronounce these words?

banal

vapid

waste

of

bandwidth

I'm probably going to get into huge trouble for this one, and I'm really snarking here for the most part, but I've been more tuned in to the way he says 'Pakistan' - Pahk-ee-STAHN. I'm sure that is the absolute correct way to say it, but it strikes me that a guy that 13% of the people already mistake for a Muslim might want to midwest that up a bit.

So how should I teach my students to pronounce divisive? I'm a British ex pat, now a US citizen, teaching in a school in Amish country in Pennsylvania trying to distinguish between standard American English and Pennsylvania Dutch. I'm hampered by signs at the local store which tell patrons that they may not "withdrawl" more than $30 dollars from their debit account, and locals telling me that, "it's all" when I discover that the store is sold out of any given product. Now I have to explain differences between divisive and 'div-eye-sive' while I personally am trying to understand why sometimes there is a 'root' and other times there is a 'rowt' that I travel to work!
No wonder we have children left behind when it comes to meeting the requirements of Mr. Bush's, No Child Left Behind Act!

bay'-nal
vah'-pid
waist
uv...

oh, I get it magurakurin. you're being clever.

There are lots of online discussions that don't interest me. What I usually do, when I find myself losing interest, is to go look at something else. It never occurred to me that it would be more clever of me (and less wasteful of bandwidth) to let these folks know how uninteresting their little discussions are.

Puts the "ih" in divisive?

I missed the memo, too. I missed the one on "Halley's Comet", too - growing up, I thought it was Haley's. Like Bill Haley. (born in the 50's ..yes.)

And is anyone else annoyed by "niche" pronounced in that snotty, French way? I say "nich". I keep hearing it pronounced as "nesh", rhyming with "nouveau riche". I don't like it.

And while we're at it, what about Chris Matthews's insistence on ChEEney? He pronouces so many ordinary things wrong (like Newt GINrich), that I don't know why he insists on this obscure pronounciation of the Cheney's family name, which even the VEEP's office disavows.

And yet - every time he uses "ChEE-ney" he says it's the family's way of pronouncing the name, and looks around like he's expecting this time..he'll get a cookie. It might be the shortest, most bizarre thing on television.

How do you pronounce these words?

"banal

vapid

waste

of

bandwidth "

-------

Instapundit?

Ah, my favorite of all is "the Thames" colloquially pronounced "the Tims" like a group of guys named Tim.

On a more serious note, dih-vih-sive is sussurant, calming and placid.

The second pronunciation, dee-vih-sive is just unpleasant.

The third, dee-vice-ive sounds decisive, derisive, and, well, divisive.

I guess when you want to say the word without dividing people, you go with the first. How beautiful the permutations. Thanks everyone for making a word-lover's day.

THANK YOU for posting this. I've had the same nagging frustration the last few weeks/months as I hear it pronounced incorre--er, alternatively. Glad to see I'm not alone. :)

I'm of the william Safire school of grammar, punctuation, and pronunciation. In other words, there may be many variations in all of the above due to regional custom or whatever, but the fact is, the English language, like all other languages, has certain rules. If the rules of, say, pronunciation for a language are not followed by the speaker of that language, then the sounds of the words that come out of the mouth of that speaker are WRONG, period. Anything else is what I call "language relativism," which causes confusion, damages the integrity of our language, and makes communication that much more difficult. So, based on the leading English language authorities, here are a few of my pet peeves (based on the RULES of pronunciation, not regionalisms, false comparisons, etc.): divisive-long "i" on second syllable, not short "i;" Harassment-accent on second syllable, not first; Iraq and Iran-both have short "i" for for first syllable, "ah" in second (Ih-rahk and Ih-rahn,) not a long "i" and short "a" in second (Eye-rak and Eye-ran.) There are many more, but you get the drift. Read Safire, Strunk and White, etc., etc. We have a wonderful language, lets use it correctly, PLEASE!!!!

Pardon my typo, I meant "let's use it correctly."

Can we add to the list the growing number of talking heads in TV and radio who pronounce "tour" as "tore," "tourist" as "torist," and "tourism" as "torism." I've even heard, on air, "lore" for "lure." They cannot possibly be as ignorant as this makes them sound, can they?

Can we add to the list the growing number of talking heads in TV and radio who pronounce "tour" as "tore," "tourist" as "torist," and "tourism" as "torism." I've even heard, on air, "lore" for "lure." They cannot possibly be as ignorant as this makes them sound, can they?

No, really, let's call the whole thing off.

He used both versions, div-eye-siv and the the one with the shorter middle

Lots of words end in "ive". Some act like "decisive" others act like "permissive". These examples are part of a more general pattern where you put "ive" on a verb to form an adjective. There are also (adjective) words that end in "ive" without being affixes attached to more basic verbs. Think about "passive" or "consecutive". If you think that "divisive" is attaching "ive" to a verb "divide" then Kevin's middle vowel makes sense because that's the vowel in the verb and it has been preserved. If you aren't making "divisive" from "divide" the vowel is not pressured to stay the same. Maybe most words that have "...isive" at their end have the short vowel and the pronunciation that Kevin wants to avoid is just assimilating "divisive" to that pattern. Neither has to be better or worse, but the logic of the pattern might be different.

We have a wonderful language, lets use it correctly

We do; let's.

I thought the same thing, I had never heard divisive pronounced that way. I thought it was a mistake until he said ti a second time.

But then again, I still get confused over "hanged" and "hung".

Can we add to the list the growing number of talking heads in TV and radio who pronounce "tour" as "tore," "tourist" as "torist," and "tourism" as "torism." I've even heard, on air, "lore" for "lure." They cannot possibly be as ignorant as this makes them sound, can they?

Now that one is is a regionalism, I think. Many of us Midwesterners, especially those of us from Ellinois, say "go on a tore," "drink your melk," "look in the mier," and other dumbass-sounding things.

But certain (depends on the locality) East Coasters will, I hope, be forgiving since they frequently annoy us by dropping the H in words like "huge" and "Houston."

Sorry--that first paragraph in mine of 9:08 should have been italicized.

Alright, I'm not going to read all the comments that were posted in response to my last, because predictably, it's all a bunch of name-calling and harassment, which is exactly what these people have done to me in the past- and has been left up on this website, even though Kevin routinely deletes comments.

For a period of about three weeks, these people didn't stop harassing me and basically trying to intimidate or harass me from leaving this website. And I wasn't even fighting them. So it just goes to show you what kind of people they are, and what they're really here for.

You'd think a reasonable liberal who reads my comments every day would want to leave me alone and let me keep commenting, wouldn't you? Not these guys. If I criticize a conservative too hard, talk about things like ending the Drug War, or suggest that conservatives or media-personalities may be devious, in cahoots, greedy, or bought-off, these commenters come out of their holes to criticize me, viciously.

Just sayin'.

Alright, I'm not going to read all the comments that were posted in response to my last, because predictably, it's all a bunch of name-calling and harassment, which is exactly what these people have done to me in the past-

[banging head on desk] Jeezus, you are obtuse.

Neither shortstop or I have even acknowledged your existence in ages, yet you took it upon yourself yesterday to, via your own actions, unleash a firestorm directed at you, and we are a bunch of meanies who don't get your singular brilliance.

Whatever. You are the king of the liberals, we are blessed that you choose to put up with the likes of rabble like us, and please don't you ever die you good-lookin' sumbitch.

What about the use of "couple" without "of" immediately afterward? unless you've already raised this for discussion? Was my grammatical preference for combinging them correct only until, say, "a couple months ago?"

Robert Frost wrote, “Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in and out of favor.” He might well have said, "A couple of months is still a couple of months."

shortstop --

How do you pronounce "tour" if not "tore?"
I'm really asking, not trying to be a smartass.

Two-er would be my guess.

we are blessed that you choose to put up with the likes of rabble like us, and please don't you ever die you good-lookin' sumbitch.

Are you talkin' to me?
Are you talkin' to me?

Didn't think so.

You don't inspire my ire or evoke my wrath.

for which I am profoundly grateful...

You little shit! Now I have to work...

Swan's diary at DKos called, "My local newspaper is a fan-zine for Harry Potter"

"Literary Event of the Decade" (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:viscerality
It is not.
"Follow those who seek the truth. Beware of those who find it."
by gnolti on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:37:16 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
Get a life. (0 / 0)
by Swan on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:11:39 AM PDT
[ Parent ]

Yes--Swan wrote a diary about Harry Potter! And when someone made a comment about how it wasn't a literary event, Swan actually had the temerity to tell another human being to "get a life." And there wasn't even irony attached to that!

Swan also wrote a very long, involved post about Karl Rove and

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/5/101333/6671
the first comment was:

Some facts of life might help you. (0 / 0)
The media loves a close race.
A close race is good for business (media business, that is.)
A close race might damage the Party, but it gives the talking heads more air time and makes them seem more important.
The front runner always gets more media coverage, not all of it positive.
It is not a conspiracy.
by Hello hello ello on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:16:45 AM PDT

So after doing all of that work and being blown completely out of the water by the first commenter, Swan came back with:

Well, this is just some spin... (0 / 0)
...by some pahetic fool.
These are all your characterizations that don't refute any of the things I pointed out at all. The most use for what you wrote is if someone just wants to ignore and not believe what I pointed out, they can use your suggestions as (not all that convincing) rationalizations, if you can call that a use.
Time to learn the facts of life.

3 of the 6 comments appear to just be Swan being Swan.

What a fucking douchebag.

You are the king of the liberals, we are blessed that you choose to put up with the likes of rabble like us, and please don't you ever die you good-lookin' sumbitch.

Freaking funny!

How do you pronounce "tour" if not "tore?"

I guess people not from Ellinois sometimes say "too-er."

I'm not from Illinoise, and I say "tore."

But at least we all speak American. Ever watch a British movie and wish it had subtitles?

Maybe it's more natural for someone from Chicago to use the short middle i because of the frequency with which 'Division' (as in Division Street) is heard.

I'm not from Illinoise, and I say "tore."

(Scooting over to make room for thersites) Welcome to the rube bin. Please, no comments about how my tender age doesn't qualify me for Boomerdom. We have to learn to transcend this stuff.

And no one from Ellinois pronounces the S. Come on!

Get off my damn lawn, punk(ette)!

That's it, old man! It's on!

Shortstop, I'm sure you couldn't resist jumping on what appeared to be my silly or even ignorant misuse of "lets" rather than "let's." I can only assume that you didn't notice that I posted an immediate correction of what was merely a typo, so the snark was uncalled for.

"As an ExBrit I can tolerate all mispronunciations except one: why does the media pronounce Colin Powell as Coelin? It's Cohlin, for cod's sake! COLIN! NOT COELIN!!"

Considering the pile of crap that came from him in 2003, perhaps "Colon" is the correct pronounciation after all.

peachkc: You seem to have missed it, but I was also referring to your incorrect use of a comma between independent clauses without a coordinate conjunction. Sheesh. You lectured everybody about not abusing our beautiful language; how was I to know you didn't mean it?

"As an ExBrit I can tolerate all mispronunciations except one: why does the media pronounce Colin Powell as Coelin? It's Cohlin, for cod's sake! COLIN! NOT COELIN!!"

In the media's defense (yeah, it did burn when I typed that), I seem to recall they pronounced it "Cohlin" when the general first started making headlines, but switched to "Coelin" when he indicated that was his preferred pronunciation.

In the media's defense (yeah, it did burn when I typed that), I seem to recall they pronounced it "Cohlin" when the general first started making headlines, but switched to "Coelin" when he indicated that was his preferred pronunciation.

You're absolutely right - I just looked it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Powell

It still irritates. Maybe it's time to switch to "Colon" as Pylon suggests.

Quite late to all the fun here lately. Traveling.

First, my regional background: navy brat, so exposed to many regional dialects--mostly mid-Atlantic American English. Dad is a westerner (native Coloradan) with linguistic roots in New England, New York, Iowa, Missouri, and Ontario. He has never said "divisive" with the short i. Mom is an Iowa-born Coloradan. She too says divisive with the long i.

I first heard the short i "duh-VIS-iv" from a native German speaker in 1975. He spoke in a cultured and fluent English. I thought it sounded elegant but stilted.

AFAIK, Merriam-Webster's and the OED are not prescriptive but descriptive dictionaries. So they report on how people are pronouncing things ca. the date of the edition in the spirit of "language belongs to the user."

But the dictionaries also give us syllabic divisions, which are useful for copyeditors checking end-of-line breaks and useful with pronunciation too. For example, one wants to avoid breaks at the end of a line that would create confusion for the reader. For example, the syllabic division for "shortstop" is short-stop. Imagine reading proofs showing an end-of-line break that rendered the word: shorts-top. Clearly wrong. Clearly confusing for the reader. And really tough to pronounce, too.

Back to pronunciation: Merriam-Webster shows the syllabic divisions for divisive thus: di-vi-sive. By way of comparison, "divinity" (a similar word, always pronounced with a short i) is divided thus: di-vin-i-ty.

My point is that the terminal consonant/vowel in the syllable generally controls the length of the syllabic vowel. If a syllable ends on a vowel (di-vi-sive), then the vowel is long. If it ends on a consonant, the vowel is short. You can see some examples on the "divide-do" and "do-doctrinally" facing pages of Merriam-Webster's, e.g., doc-ile (short o) and do-cent (long o).

Now, speakers modify pronunciation all the time, generally defaulting to: (1) the pronunciation they received from their parents; (2) pronunciation used by their peers; (3) convenience and ease of speech delivery; or (4) perceived elite or perceived hip usage, to which speakers may want to conform.

In the case of "duh-VIS-ive" and "NOO-kyuh-luhr" both, it's my sense that speakers are defaulting to (3): the least taxing mouth and tongue movements.

Good stuff, paxy! Thanks for posting that.

Racism is alive and well. A person of color uses a slightly different pronounciation of a given word and suddenly a whole conversation springs forth about language usage and pronunciations (the general assumption being that people of color struggle with english, regardless of their level of education). A white person does the same and its almost immediately attributed to colloquialism or regionalism or "folksiness," and then forgotten. Amazing! This whole thread is a perfect demonstration. Maybe someone can point me to similar threads of this length about GWB's mispronunciations and malapropisms.....yeah, right.

Tour as "tore." Actually, not of a Midwestern origin. I'm a Michigan native who first heard this mispronunciation in Salinas, California, in 1980. I heard it repeated often over the next four years while I attended San Diego State. I'd hoped I'd escaped it when I moved back to the Midwest (Wisconsin), but it spread across the nation in short order.

Tour, by the way, is a French word pronounced /tʊər/. To simplify, it should sound like "doer," not "door" (or "tore").

Oh, now I get it, my dearest shortstop. You are just a jerk. Thank you