I've gotten great service at Target. I wish AT&T Wireless was half as responsive.

Don't do business with companies that suck.

Kevin, it's in the zillions. And you can get good service at Target. Phone companies, not so much.

Kevin, maybe we do need to do it more, but complaining is still one of the things Americans do well. Seriously. I've spent most of the last eight years working overseas (in South America, various Eastern European and former Soviet states) and I've notice a direct correlation between the quality of goods and services and how much people are willing to complain about poor service, poor-quality goods, etc. People in most post-Soviet countries put up with abysmal service and crappy goods with nary a peep, so that's what they get.
Even in first-world countries, the correlation holds. I'm in Canada now, and to my mind Canadians don't bitch nearly enough. At least in Toronto, where I am, people put up with service I can't imagine the average American letting slide.

Why do we put up with this treatment? 'cause it's damn hard to get electronic gear repaired unless you're in India. Or China.

Actually, the correct financial model is that the price of the equipment never includes any service, or at least, never any decent service.

Apple offers a service plan (not the extended warrantee) that puts you at the head of the line when you want to talk to the Genius Bar. It ain't cheap. But that's how you get better service.

If the warranty is expired, you will do much better to find a good third-party service organization. It might take a little trial-and-error, but it will be worth it.

Well then there's this political cartoon which involves customer support and the falling dollar.
Priceless
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmclo/2008/tmclo080212.gifs

Kevin shops at Target? Man, he must be loaded.

December 2006 I'm in a Target store and want to buy a digital picture frame for my wife for Christmas. They are locked behind a display and after spending ten minutes being ignored as I try to flag an employee walking by for assitance, I finally say quite loudly, "Excuse me! I want to spend money in your store. If someone wants my money will they please help me!"

The manager rushed over with security. The cashiers were laughing so hard they could barely stand. I got the digital picture frame, but I'm still amazed at what I had to do to get minimum customer service.

Sounds similar to what a lot of Xbox360 owners go through. Here's a tale of woe.

Not sure why there hasn't been a class-action suit yet.

I'm not entirely sure service in the "good old days" was all that much better. It certainly has become easier in recent years to return defective or even unwanted items.

Also, I'm not entirely sure consumers want to bear that extra cost that it would take to allow retailers to hire experienced, knowledgeable staff. The rise of the big box retailers, offering low prices with do-it-youself service, seems to testify to this.

Thank God we are a service-based economy. Imagine if we were an industrial-based one. We have become such screw-ups that we probably couldn't even win the auto industry.

Oh. Wait.

(Question for Doctor Jay: how do you realize value from the higher price you paid to jump to the front of the line, when the line is comprised of everyone who paid for the right to jump to the front?)

In fact, a very happy customer!

I guess I can understand this: at least they replaced the phone(s).

Contrast with my experience with Verizon:

I had been a Verizon customer for 6 years, with one of their most expensive plans. Had a Motorola phone, with insurance, and it was still well within the warranty. A Motorola phone that I bought at the Verizon Store. The morning of the day before an overseas business trip, I took my phone off the charger and noticed that the screen had become something resembling a blurred Jackson Pollack painting. So I took it to the Service Desk at the Verizon store from whence I had purchased it. To make a long story short, they wouldn't exchange it for a new one, because that would require sending it back to Motorola, and they weren't willing to provide a loaner while I was on my trip. The insurance would require some similar 2-week processing nonsense and the meantime - no phone. But they would be happy to sell me a new phone which would also require re-upping my contract for 2 years!

In the end, I threw the phone against the back wall of the service desk, walked next door, and signed up with Cingular, now AT&T, which has been only marginally better. But I have been thinking of buying the iPhone simply because at least it would be an Apple product, and I have generally had very good experiences with them.

I think people who buy anything and everything Apple sells are rather, let's say, special. I have nothing against Apple and some of their stuff is fine, although if one approaches Apple as just another manufacturer of stuff, they'll find many manufacturers whose stuff are not as sleek but can be functionally better. For instance, I much prefer the Zune to any iPod (not as pleasing aesthetically, but more features for less money). But there are Apple fans who are almost religious in their devotion to the company and its products. Tobias sounds like one, and I read yesterday that Charlie Rose slipped and fell and apparently made the instinctive decision to stop the sidewalk with his face instead of his MacBook Air.

____________________________________________

No, you spend money to keep other people occupied so that they don't start wars, etc.

Genius Bar?
I got stuck on "make an appointment at the Genius Bar" for a couple of minutes before I could read the rest of the post.
Genius Bar?
Who comes up with this crap? While typing this comment I've gone back and read the original post twice to make sure I'm not having 60's flashbacks.
Genius Bar?

Weenie: Kevin shops at Target? Man, he must be loaded.
Don't worry; he'll sober up soon enough. Hope he kept the receipts.

Apparently he is just being creatively Apple.Apparently he is just being creatively Apple.

I've had both those maladies: unresponsive touch screen and unplugged-but-not audio out jack. Each time I was lucky enough that a reboot worked to unjam things. But there for a moment each time I was highly annoyed.

And "Genius" is a relative term...

I am the happy owner of a Sony Ericsson P1i smart phone, with the features of an iPhone.

I had a volume problem, sent an email to Sony Ericsson support, and within 12 hours received a response indicating exactly what I need to do to correct the problem. No muss, no fuss.

After two months' ownership, my iPhone lost its ticklishness.

Eeesh. You never go to the show on opening night.

Sounds like the service is fine but the product isn't quite up to 6-Sigma quality.

But everyone who has an iPhone absolutely loves the thing while it's working. Like a high-maintenance car.

So he gets his phone replaced or fixed on the spot each time, and we're supposed to take this as an example of bad service? And the tech who practically had to be tackled - because Andrew had left and he was already helping another customer - still stops to help Andrew again, and this is supposed to be an example of bad service? And you think Andrew would have killed less time trying to get an item fixed or replaced at Target?

And this construction is cute: ...difficulty making a service appointment because Genius Bars are usually packed like sardine cans with people having problems Ha! Not like the Genius Bars at all those other companies, which are never packed because of all the extra staffing or because people aren't having all those problems... or, because those other companies don't have staff dedicated to helping people with their problems (which include not just problems with the merchandise, but "cockpit trouble," as they say).

This is a kind of jackassy post coming from such a nice guy.

?? We LONG ago collectively decided that in the battle between low prices and good service, the vast majority will take low prices (for sale of goods) over good service. I didn't realize some people had missed this dramatic change.

Long ago, in a galaxy far away, before the service economy, you could drive into a gas station and someone would come out and pump the gas. While the gas was pumping, he would offer to check your oil and clean your windshield. Sometimes this person would even be friendly. That was before the service economy.

Of course, back then gas was like 23 cents per gallon.

I agree with piminnowcheez, what the hell is the problem with the service?

Can Kevin elaborate how painlessly getting a replacement is bad service? Bad hardware, definitely not bad service by any stretch of imigination.

What should Apple store employee have done to provide "better" service.

Jeez.

Andrew Tobias' story about his iPhone parallels the experience I had with a PowerBook 190 over a decade ago. At the time I was a confirmed Mac fanatic who gleefully bashed anyone running a Windows machine.

Then I tried running my writing business on my PowerBook. That was difficult because I was constantly shipping the thing to Apple's repair facility for some type of service or other. Apple finally replaced the unit--and even transferred all my data to the new unit's hard drive--but the frustration of having my main business computer a thousand miles away for days at a time became too much to accomodate.

I became a former confirmed Mac fanatic.

I remember the iPhone's debut and the excitement it generated, just like all of Apple's amazing, groundbreaking products. I kept thinking, we'll see how it goes. Now we're seeing.

Thersites,
Not recognizing what a "genius bar" is is a sure sign that you have brain issues syndrome.

What kills me is that the geniuses have to go to a genious bar to get their latest techie toy fixed. Shouldn't the geniuses be able to fix their new widgets?

Wages in the service and retail industries are very low compared to other industries. I have been in department stores and seen middle aged fat faced fucks yelling and screaming at sales clerks. I have seen executives with blue tooth phones hanging on their ears yell at sales clerks in office supply stores for answering the phone.

Retail and service employees take a lot of abuse for little compensation. Market capitalization insists they suffer for their inadequate inputs to economic growth.

It appears to me the service was very good, he made appointments and got the product replaced quickly. #3 was a bit strange as it was only 10 minutes after #2 and the service guys were working with other customers, but still, it got replaced.

It appears what you are looking for isn't better service, but less efficient service; you are looking for service people who stand around doing nothing for a large percentage of the time so they are always available when someone needs them.

K is right. Theoretically, it wasn't supposed to work this way. Econ 101 told us all that deregulation would result in jillions of companies all competing for different market niches. There would be a company for the high price, high service consumer just as there would be for the low price, one step below a hog confinement shed consumer.

Unfortunately, it turns out that big companies buy out all the little ones, create oligopolies, and regard us all as hogs in confinement. And the only consumers who have money to spend (and are therefore worthy of consideration) are apparently between the ages of 12 and 30 (well, actually 25, but they are willing to let 30 year olds pretend to be 25). We know this, because they are the ones all the products and ads are directed at. No wonder we oldsters so obligingly beg our doctors for big pharmas miracle pill of the month. They are among the few marketers that pay any attention to us.

Plus, let's not write off that old bugaboo, outsourcing. Mere physical distance makes it a lot easier to provide awful customer service. In the immortal words of Whoopi Goldberg in Jumpin' Jack Flash "A quarter?!? Find me in New York for that f--ng quarter!" Change New York to India, Ireland, or wherever the new hot pocket of cheap labor exists, and you have a whole bunch of people who really don't have to care a whole lot whether fat, lazy, technologically incompetent Americans who spend too much money on useless toys EVER get something that works!

Thus endeth the rant for the day.

"What should Apple store employee have done to provide "better" service." - Dr. Morph

Why that's simple, they should have served lattes and offered to buff the guy's Birkenstocks.

Reliability issues are not unique to the iPhone. I went through four brand new Motorolas in as many months. The last one has worked, more or less, for 18 months.

Perhaps the crowds at the "Genius Bar" are a New York thing since the Apple store here in Colorado is not that bad. Add to that the fact that you can make an appointment...and I call that GOOD service. (IMHO, AT&T is another story altogether. I avoid them like the plague).

"We know this, because they are the ones all the products and ads are directed at."

Hey, you old wrinkled types get Cialis AND Rogaine commercials -- what else do you want?

It's easier to hand someone a new phone than refresh the software and actually fix the one that's there.

Why do they develop bugs? Because it's secure software and you can't just give it the four-finger salute like you can their computers to reset the various ePROMs.

"But everyone who has an iPhone absolutely loves the thing while it's working. Like a high-maintenance car."

Twenty-some years ago (getting to thirty now) I had a co-worker who couldn't spend enough money on cars. One of his babies was a Triumph TR-7, which went through six alternators in the two years he owned it. I know it was six, because I took him to the shop to pick it up after each incident.

Along around alternator number five, we were talking to the service manager while we waited for the car to be brought out. He told us the story of his own favorite, a Hillman Minx he owned in the 1950s. "Loved the car. Of course, I always had to carry a spare fuel pump in the trunk."

Apple owners, it appears, are the new British sports car owners. And Apple itself is sounding more and more like the new Lucas.

i use only Apple computers now. It is a better engineered and conceptually superior product in my opinion. That said, however, I am now on my third hard drive on my MacBook which is less than 2 years old; they do seem to have some build quality issues here and there. Still wouldn't trade for anything; i love em. Just got a new MacBook Air. Way cool. will buy an iPhone soon as they come out with the 3G model in a couple of months (if you have not put one in your hand and seen what it does, do so. Unbelievable toy). It is a hassle making appointments at the Genius bar; but holy crap is the service outstanding once you get there. First rate, and fast; really incredible. I agree with those above, this is a good service story.

Just wait until the iPhone battery needs replacing (2-years, max life). Have to send it back to Apple for expensive replacement. What's more, no phone for two weeks while they do it. No loaner program. Such a deal!

I don't think Dell has a Genius Bar, but then again I've never had to find out, through 4 Dell PC's over the last 12 years.

"In the end, I threw the phone against the back wall of the service desk, walked next door, and signed up with Cingular, now AT&T, which has been only marginally better." (Brautigan 12:59 PM)

Even it AT&T wasn't any better at all, it must have felt wonderful throwing that Verizon against the wall. Even more if it shattered into a hundred smithereens. Serves those dickheads right.

You go, Brautigan!

I'm going to say this is an Apple thing. As in, only worshipers of Apple would consider four phones in seven months something to be "basically very happy" about.

My faithful old rotary phone just works fine. As for Apple, it would seem that the voices of a few have mislead the masses.

What makes it even worse, in my book, is that apparently you can't even pay for superior service anymore. I'd often be happy to do exactly that, but I've stopped trying. When I pay a lot for something, the service I get is almost never any better than it is if I buy something at Target. So why bother?

Kevin,

You can pay for superior service. You may "pay a lot" for something, but you're still paying the same price for that thing as everyone else. You could pay extra for service contracts, upgraded tech support, personal shoppers and the like, but I'll bet you don't. It sounds like you want to pay more (but not really that much) to cut to the front of the line once you've got a problem, when you bought the product on the same terms as every other schmuck in line. And, if you paid enough, you could get the inventors of the iPhone to make a house call on Christmas Day. Or you could slip some in-store technician a hundred to the job on her day off rather than wait three days. But you don't want to pay that much.

big companies buy out all the little ones, create oligopolies, and regard us all as hogs in confinement

Well said.

the new Lucas

Funny. I used to work for a subsidiary of Lucas. I was at a JIT training seminar with others from the large corp and some were from an airliner power supply division. They told a story about a power supply in for repair that the customer sent a one year anniversary card to.

bmaz, I bought a used IBM thinkpad in January 2005. I never had a single hard drive problem. That's a good thing, too, because my thesis was on it.

Seriously, that level of unreliability is intolerable. If a laptop is failing that often, it's not a laptop worth owning.

Hedley Lamarr: My faithful old rotary phone just works fine.

It was probably manufactured when the phone company owned the equipment. Now that they can sell them to you, the phones are crap. Someday, someone will explain to me why busting up AT&T was a great idea. It's not as if there was no innovation at Bell Labs before then. Can you say "transistor," kiddies?

bmaz, I bought a used IBM thinkpad in January 2005. I never had a single hard drive problem. That's a good thing, too, because my thesis was on it.

Seriously, that level of unreliability is intolerable. If a laptop is failing that often, it's not a laptop worth owning.

While we're on the subject, does anybody know if there's a real competitor to the Iphone when it comes to true, computer-quality web access in a phone? I haven't seen any, and that's really the killer ap I'm looking for in a phone. I'm not such a big fan of having my phone also doubling as a music box, so I've been waiting for some competition, but haven't found any so far. Maybe I'll wait for the google phone.

We don't have "good service" anymore (if, indeed things were ever as wonderful as people remember or believe they were) because employees in those positions aren't valued for providing customer service -- or for much of anything else. If providing service don't provide a living wage or a route to any other job, why/how will the people in those positions develop a service-providing mindset?

The classic work on high-tech products is Augustine's Law. Rule # I-forget states:
"Anything that isn't in a design won't break"
It follows then that things like hybrid cars and Iphones are felony violations of Murphy's Law. As I wrote Tobias:
Wow! Golly but the lemonade I made with the lemons tastes good! The virtue of my necessity is incomparable!
Wake me up when computers and cell phone are intuitive and Just Work. That will happen about the time they are obsolete....in 50 years.

Jasper,
Nix waiting for the google phone, all you really need is two empty tin cans (or plastic drinking cups) connected with a piece of string.

I had a similar, though not as repetitive, experience as Andrew. Got the "sad Ipod" icon on my Ipod. Made an appointment at the NY store, waited about half an hour, and the "genius" took one look at it, said I had a dented hard drive, and gave me a new one. I was actually quite happy...because they give you a replacement without much hassle. No crap about how it's your fault, or we've got to keep it for weeks to repair it, or anything. Just, sorry it doesn't work, here's a new one. Works for me.

No, the lesson is that Apple is full of bullshit marketing, Kevin.

You know there *are* statistics on these things. It isn't necessary to try to divine product quality from anecdotes. The statistics say that Apple products are better than most in terms of quality and reliability. They don't say that no one ever gets a lemon.

Apparently some companies are betting the farm that Americans will forget about good customer service - Skybus, based on the model of the repulsive European airline Ryanair, being a prime example. It's a shame to see Apple going in the same direction.

Actually, I don't want good service: what I want is for the product not to break in the first place.

Actually, I don't want good service: what I want is for the product not to break in the first place.

Corporate bullshitting CEOs like Steve Jobs will be showing just how right P.T. Barnum was.

Of course, Barnum didn’t add the first corollary to his “a sucker is born every minute” bit of genius. And, that is… “suckers often become that way because of their own ego.”

This SocraticGadfly genius corollary explains just how Jobs milks people’s egos, speaking of genius:

But two nights ago, shortly after midnight, I went on-line to make an appointment at the Genius Bar … Within 10 minutes, my Genius determined I needed a new phone.

It’s part of my iPhones suck… post.

I don't have an iPhone, but i have a Mac iBook G4 that's worked very well (only one part replacement needed) for the past 4.5 years.

The boyfriend had to bring his iMac to the "Genius Bar" in Danbury Ct. - twice - hard drive crash - I think they gave him a new hard drive the second time. Oh - it was less than a year old. He still thinks MACs are great. If it were a windows machine , he would be out of his mind with anger.

I had the same reaction to "genius bar" - eyes rolling.

Both times the store was mobbed. I was with him on a Saturday - I'm not convinced people were buying. He went back on a week night - it was the only store in the mall with people in it.

My iphone has been working fine since I bought it. I'm sort of sad that I don't get to share in the outrage.

Sounds to me like iPhone service is OK but the company is hemorrhaging money replacing them.

In general cell phone service is rated the worst of all the industries, and I have to agree with that. The phones themselves are clever and cute but the call quality just sucks. Sucks. Clipping, over compression, simply bad. And don't even try to contact customer service about your account. The accounts are so convoluted and full of conditions even the reps can't figure them out. All to extract the last dime from the customer.

And as long as I'm playing grumpy old man - even computer software is terrible. You've got products pushed out the door before testing is even done. I really can't believe the crap that we have to put up with.

But - as said above - it is all about saving a penny. We will buy crap if it is cheap enough. I figure when the price of energy goes up and we need to hold onto our things a little longer the value of true quality will go up too.

EmmaAnne,

The statistics say that Apple products are better than most in terms of quality and reliability. They don't say that no one ever gets a lemon.

Generally true but not true for the iPhone.

Same thing with the Xbox/360 - overclocked and running too hot for good reliability.

Same thing for the DirectTV online game service - it requires modem access (is this the 1980s?!) for updating scores and it appears they are serviced by way too few phone lines and servers. Get a couple busy attempts and you must reset your receiver, wiping out the high score you were trying to report. Plus they admit their application may post high scores for one game onto another game's board where the scores are obviously impossible to get. And they say there is no way to fix that. And there is a $10 penalty for canceling the service. Isn't that all a sweet little scam?

Every time you buy something, buy a hundred of it. That way, when there are problems you can just pitch the device and move on to the next. No muss, no fuss, and no headache. Easy-peasy. Now relax, chill.

So shall we meet at the Genius Bar after work?

As an EE, I can tell you that most modern handheld gadgets are not made to be fixed, for both economic and practical reasons. Most are very small, and so the parts can only reasonably be assembled by machines. It is usually impossible to figure out what's broken, even the designer might not be able to track it down, nor is it possible to have the parts on hand. Even if you could fix it, the cost would be way more than it's worth. So, if you get one with a headache before you 'have' to upgrade, the only reasonable recourse is replacement. That's the reality for cellphones, MP3 players, cameras, etc.
Oh, and they upgrade or change models every 3 months, so even if you tried to, it's impossible to keep up with the changes.
Now if it's a software bug, then maybe that can be patched, but then there's bugs in the patches, etc.
Only things that are relatively expensive and have big, separate assemblies can be reasonably fixed, like laptops.
The other thing to remember is that usually if your widget breaks then other ones that are the same will have the same problem and the 'Genius Bar' person will know what's up the minute you say "My screen went crazy and...."
That's why they're geniuses, right?

Anon, actually, there's a different trick. Take PCs. I buy used, to buy one Windows OS earlier than what is current, and avoid the worst in virus targeting, as well as Windoze fuckups.

Witness Vista. The dreaded "Service Pack 1" has been released, and it's like 40MEGs in size itself. Hell, for that much, you could blow Vista up and create a new OS.

"But - as said above - it is all about saving a penny. We will buy crap if it is cheap enough. I figure when the price of energy goes up and we need to hold onto our things a little longer the value of true quality will go up too." - Tripp

Tripp, I haven't had to wait until the price of energy goes up in order to hold onto my things a little longer. PackRat syndrome is NOT caused by expensive energy, just the inability to let go.

I have to say, I'm among the people not seeing what the bad customer service is here. Bad quality control, definitely. Bad manufacturing, perhaps. But bad customer service when they hand you a replacement unit on the spot?

The nice thing about the Genius Bar is that you can walk in with pretty much any Mac ever and get help, usually for free. One of our cats landed on the keyboard of my husband's three-year-old PowerBook and broke the little plastic scissor thing that held one of the keys on.

We had to wait 15 or 20 minutes past our appointment time on a busy Saturday night in Los Angeles, but the nice lady behind the Genius Bar looked at the PowerBook, put a new scissor mechanism on the key, and put the key back on. Good as new. And all for free.

I'm shocked at what a bizarre hatchet job this was. The story read to me to be an example of excellent customer service. In all three cases it was more to Apple's advantage to satisfy the customer with a replacement than tie up his phone with a loaner.

Perhaps several years from now when the price comes down Apple won't swap them out so readily, but at this point they want their customers to feel rightly that they've purchased a best in class product by providing best in class service.

Good luck finding more bizarre things to complain about. I hear they only come in one color, there's one for ya. . .

Service and sales suck. For the last 4 cars I have bought I have known more about the vehicle than the salesperson and if in one of the sales, the sales guy has told me exactly how annoying it was going to not have some of the extras I would have paid the extra $$$. Service sucks and has sucked. While there's a few of us out here willing to pay the extra for better service most Americans look at the bottom line. I used to sell a big budget item and it always blew me away that I could spend several hours with a client and do all the leg work and then lose a $4,000 deal for charging $10 more than the guy down the street who did absolutely nothing except find out the price I was charging from the client and go down $10. I understand somebody trying to save $10 on a $200 product but on a $4000 product?

dumbass early adopters. i learned my lesson with the 1st Gen iPod. Always best to wait for at least the 2nd or 3rd go around for all the kinks to get ironed out.