Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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May 6, 2008
By: Kevin Drum

ELECTION THREAD....I guess Obama is going to win North Carolina by 15-20 points and Clinton is going to win Indiana by 4-5 points. In other words: no surprises, nothing game changing, and no likelihood that today will mark the end of the campaign.

What a drag.

Kevin Drum 9:20 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (74)

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Not game-changing, but definitely setting Hillary's game in stone—as immutable, in its own way, as Dubya and his staying-the-course mania, which remains very well suited to the 16th century.

Posted by: Kenji on May 6, 2008 at 9:28 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, if that's as good as you can do, time to look for another website.

The Obama camp has stated outright tonight that the campaign will end May 20 when they project, even under the most conservative scenarios, he will have the majority of pledged delegates. For more info on why, check CNN or any other cable news net except Fox.

Obama will gain delegates tonight, he will erase Hillary's popular vote gain in PA, and the fat lady is clearing her throat. Not because we want it to. Look at the dang numbers.

Posted by: kim on May 6, 2008 at 9:33 PM | PERMALINK

This is game changing, not because of scoring, but because of the clock. There are only so many races, and only so many votes and pledged delegates, so this is more like a basketball or hockey game than a baseball game.

I remember watching the Bruins give up two goals in the early minutes of a hockey game, and then fight off the enemy to a tie the rest of the time.

At the end of the first period, the Bruins were holding the habs within reach, and on their way to winning the game.

When there were six minutes left in the game, the score hadn't changed, but the game had definitely changed.

Posted by: Benjamin on May 6, 2008 at 9:35 PM | PERMALINK

Obviously posted before Obama's speech.

Posted by: Steve Paradis on May 6, 2008 at 9:37 PM | PERMALINK

i don't regard it as a drag, but that's minor: as several have already pointed out, clinton needed a result that could offset the underlying dynamics of delegate counts. she didn't get it and she is just about out of time in which to get it.

Posted by: howard on May 6, 2008 at 9:41 PM | PERMALINK

If you were an "undecided" super d how long would you want to wait to get to the party?
This ends quickly now.

Posted by: j on May 6, 2008 at 9:42 PM | PERMALINK

Nothing changing is good. A huge double-digit win in a 'big' 'swing' state repudiates more of Clinton's bullshit arguments. Having Indiana too close to call is, bottom-line, awesome.

Posted by: Tom on May 6, 2008 at 9:43 PM | PERMALINK

If Republican rules had been in place, Obama would have been forced to drop his candidacy after today's result. After all, he did not get any of the votes that went to Hillary.

Posted by: gregor on May 6, 2008 at 9:44 PM | PERMALINK

So much for Dimbulbs operation clueless urr chaos.

Posted by: Jet on May 6, 2008 at 9:46 PM | PERMALINK


It is a drag, isn't it? We're counting on you to keep our morale up with the McCain Idiocy Watch. I smell a merchandising opportunity here. It's "The Watch That's Right Twice A day." (Maybe once a day, in honor of his military service.) One of your artistically-inclined readers might come up with a design that partakes of Mickey Mouse and Salvador Dali.

Posted by: thersites on May 6, 2008 at 9:47 PM | PERMALINK

Don't count Indiana for Clinton just yet...she's up only 39K in votes, and Lake County (where Gary is with its 84% black population is) hasn't reported a single vote yet.

This is going to be extremely close...and a close Indiana race combined with a big Clinton loss in NC, means it's been a bad bad day for Hillary.

Posted by: Joe on May 6, 2008 at 9:47 PM | PERMALINK

Make that a mere 35K lead for Hillary now, and still no Lake County votes yet....you see how quick this is changing?

Posted by: Joe on May 6, 2008 at 9:49 PM | PERMALINK

Stupid as American politics can be, it is often about who outperforms the polls in the days going in. This time, Obama outperformed those polls.

Posted by: PE on May 6, 2008 at 9:49 PM | PERMALINK

Have to disagree with Kevin on this one. I doubt Hillary will drop out tomorrow (assuming her Indiana lead holds), but this has been a horrible night for her. William Bennett on CNN, and Rove and Barnes on Fox, each in their own way said it is over for Hillary. If those hacks are throwing in the towel on Hillary's behalf, why is Kevin Drum so blue? I think Kevin will be pleasantly surprised at the media storyline over the next several days. (Either that, or I will be sorely disappointed!)

The math is the math, and it is over for Hillary. I think it is finally sinking in among the talking heads.

Posted by: Jim E. on May 6, 2008 at 9:55 PM | PERMALINK

I too think it's all over for Team Hillary! The only problem is whose going to tell her to give up? Bill? Not likely.

Anyway, with the nominee all but certain to be Obama, the question becomes how does he get to 270+ in Electoral College?

Posted by: Chicounsel on May 6, 2008 at 9:59 PM | PERMALINK

Iowa seems like years ago.

Posted by: Lucy on May 6, 2008 at 10:05 PM | PERMALINK

Lanny Davis is trying to go back to the Michigan/Florida vote, and is brewing a pot of some really weak tea. This is a day where the talking heads are realizing early on what usually takes them a day or two later to realize normally....that while Clinton may want to call tonight a split, it's actually a clear win for Obama. He got a strong win in North Carolina (big state, Hillary, big state), and her apparent win in Indiana is getting cut close. The net result is more delegates for Obama tonight than for Clinton.

Posted by: Quinn on May 6, 2008 at 10:11 PM | PERMALINK

Odd post. Nothing changed? Clinton's chances, already very slim, have just about disappeared. Obama has substantially increased his leads in delegates and the popular vote, and it is very late in the game.

Posted by: Brooklynite on May 6, 2008 at 10:13 PM | PERMALINK

It is interesting that exit polls in both Indiana and North Carolina show that 50% of Hillary's voters will not vote for Obama in November.

Posted by: emmarose on May 6, 2008 at 10:15 PM | PERMALINK

Wasn't Hillary supposed to win by ~10 in Indiana?

Posted by: orion on May 6, 2008 at 10:18 PM | PERMALINK

I think that come November they'll vote for Obama by and large. The same thing goes for all those conservatives who say they'll stay home if McCain is the nominee. All a bunch of BS.

Posted by: quinn on May 6, 2008 at 10:19 PM | PERMALINK

For fucks sake, IT IS OVER!

Get over yourself, Hillary. You lost.

Posted by: The Conservative Deflator on May 6, 2008 at 10:21 PM | PERMALINK

I'm sorry, Kevin. Are we boring you?

Posted by: david on May 6, 2008 at 10:25 PM | PERMALINK

hold on, i feel something coming over me...


Ah, what happened? I think I "idiotic" inhabited my body momentarily...

Posted by: J on May 6, 2008 at 10:38 PM | PERMALINK

i am watching her speach.

classless beyond belief.

they have NO CLASS

Posted by: lady fatima on May 6, 2008 at 10:42 PM | PERMALINK

Has anyone been watching the MSM? They are starting to say that it's over. We've known that for a long time, of course. We beat Hillary a while ago. Now we are beating the MSM. The only prizes left are Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the rightwing blogosphere. And those aren't really relevant, anymore. Hillary won't go away, of course. But she's only got the "vast right wing conspiracy" working for her. And they aren't as vast as they used to be. With the MSM finally bailing on Hillary, she's really got nowhere to hide.

Posted by: fostert on May 6, 2008 at 10:43 PM | PERMALINK

LOL! Looks like all the Obamazooids are pulling out all the stops to try to spin this thing into an Obama victory.

The fact of the matter is, no super del worth his salt is going to go public and endorse Barack Obama, the man who sat for twenty years in Rev Wacky Wright's pew. The Dem leadership knows Obama is too much of an American hating elitist to back this donkey.

Go on, you Obamazooids! Spin, spin, SPIN!

Posted by: mackin' it on May 6, 2008 at 10:44 PM | PERMALINK

she is so butch....

her message " I am tghe bigger thug" vote for me...

this is her speech ever...

Posted by: benna on May 6, 2008 at 10:45 PM | PERMALINK

"mackin' it" -- we Obama supporters have no need to spin. Our candidate destroyed your candidate in NC, will extend his delegate and popular vote leads tonight, and the nomination is won (at least in the eyes of any one who has the slightest familiarity with arithmetic).

Good luck with your spinning though. I look forward to hearing your camp's next hilarious excuse/rule-changing whine. Maybe, I don't know, Indiana shows HRC's ability to win early alphabet states, by which metric North Carolina isn't terribly important.

Posted by: J on May 6, 2008 at 10:48 PM | PERMALINK

Obama gave a beautiful speech, reached out to heal the party. He was also speaking to the super delegates, but it was so healing to hear that.

Clinton is all about herself. She started out "it's on to the White House" -- we need to be a united party again - NOW.

Posted by: Mary Nell on May 6, 2008 at 10:48 PM | PERMALINK

It's over for Hillary!

Let the party begin.

I'm getting smashingly smashed tonight.

Posted by: Manfred on May 6, 2008 at 10:52 PM | PERMALINK

Go on, you Obamazooids! Spin, spin, SPIN!

Ok, Obama picked up 200K+ votes in NC, wiping out Hillary's gains in Pennsylvania....Oh wait, that's not spin, that's fact.

Let's see...Hillary now has Kentucky and West Virginia left....to do what, exactly? Make up 500K votes? Nope. Make up 160+ delegates? Nope.

This things been over for more than a month.

Posted by: Joe on May 6, 2008 at 10:55 PM | PERMALINK

Holy smokes, Hillary just called on the Burmese junta to open their country up. How sassy!

Posted by: Aguirre on May 6, 2008 at 10:57 PM | PERMALINK

Oh Kevin, you're such a kidder!

Obama is exceeding expectations tonight and it does in fact look that much bleaker for Hillary as a result.

Posted by: David W. on May 6, 2008 at 11:07 PM | PERMALINK

Orion writes:
> Wasn't Hillary supposed to win by ~10 in Indiana?

According to Pollster.com, the expected margin was 6, with 6% undecided. Obviously, she is not going to reach that. At the moment, she actually has a small chance to lose the whole state; imputing from returns I've got, Clinton's victory margin will be:

38000 - (Obama's margin in Lake County)

Obama should win Lake County, but to win it by 38000 votes will be pretty tough, unless he's done completely amazing things with the turn-out in Gary.

Still, a surprisingly close finish, and a reminder that likely voter models are not infallible.

Posted by: Jonathan King on May 6, 2008 at 11:11 PM | PERMALINK

I noticed that Clinton repeated tonight what Clinton supporters seem to be all saying, that she came behind in Indiana. If you look, however, at the Indiana polls, Clinton led in most of them going back to March.

Posted by: PE on May 6, 2008 at 11:14 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, what are you smoking?

Hillary lost, Obama won, and the Democrats will unite behind the presumptive nominee. Hillary Clinton gave a conciliatory speech, as if she realized that it's pretty much done for. You could see it in Bill's face, you could hear it in her voice.

Posted by: Boorring on May 6, 2008 at 11:15 PM | PERMALINK

Did Hillary thank her Limbaugh supporters in Indiana?

Posted by: creig on May 6, 2008 at 11:25 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, if I'm wrong, that would be great. But this is pretty much the result everyone was expecting, right? So I figure Hillary will keep dragging this thing out.

An any rate, I agree that she's out of it. But who cares what I think? The question is whether she thinks she's out of it. And she doesn't seem to think so.

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

Posted by: Kevin Drum on May 6, 2008 at 11:27 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin: last Friday, AP and every wire service stated that Hillary was surging and Obama was cratering. Because that was what they wanted to happen. A huge victory in North Carolina was not assured; but now that it is 200,000+ votes, it erases her popular vote spin forever. It is also possible that Obama will win in Indiana--certainly he has if you erase the Limbaugh DINOs. The race ended tonight--even in the pundit class, and you yawn. Hillary had to win North Carolina. The Big Dog spent every last shred of credibility he had left there. Over. Huge win for Obama. Time for him to look at the general.

Posted by: Sparko on May 6, 2008 at 11:33 PM | PERMALINK

I swear to God, if Obama gets the nomination, I'm casting my lot with McCain. Seriously.

Posted by: mackin' it on May 6, 2008 at 11:37 PM | PERMALINK

Damn it.

"Mackin' it" is going to singlehandedly vote for McCain if Obama gets the Dem nomination.

I really wanted Obama to win, but now I guess he won't.

Posted by: absent observer on May 6, 2008 at 11:44 PM | PERMALINK

"I sure hope I'm wrong, though."

Good thing you are. Look, Hillary already lost in March. But the MSM wouldn't accept it. Now, they are accepting it. Before, Obama was fighting Hillary and the MSM and still barely winning. Now, he won't have to fight the MSM until the convention. Now that the MSM is switching, it's truly over. Well, barring an assassination, of course.

Posted by: fostert on May 6, 2008 at 11:44 PM | PERMALINK

Come on Lake County......Indiana is now 51-49.

Posted by: Joe on May 6, 2008 at 11:47 PM | PERMALINK

With 28% of the vote counted in Lake County, Obama has 75% of the total. If his performance holds up across the entire county, Obama will get 60,000 more votes than Clinton in that county, and he will win Indiana.

Posted by: Jake on May 6, 2008 at 11:52 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, it's now only two points, in a state with a demographic that was favorable to Clinton. After the worst manufactured scandal that Obama went through too.

It's over, and McCain is done for because the Dems will unite.

Posted by: Boorring on May 6, 2008 at 11:52 PM | PERMALINK

Now it's 1 point, Lake county is coming in strong for Obama (75%), if it stays above 60% Obama wins.

Posted by: fahey on May 6, 2008 at 11:57 PM | PERMALINK

They are now (9:00PM PDT) separated by 23,000 votes and (by my estimate) they will count about another 115,000 votes. Even if Hillary pulls out a win it will be by the narrowest of margins. So Mr. Obama ekes out a tie in spite of Rush's best effort to get out the Republican vote for Mrs. Clinton. This may finally be the end of Hillary Clinton's campaign.

Posted by: JohnK on May 7, 2008 at 12:01 AM | PERMALINK

It will be closer than 4 points--not so much of a yawn, is it, Mr. Drum?

Posted by: JMS on May 7, 2008 at 12:04 AM | PERMALINK

It's been over for some time, but Hillary just keeps on denying reality. But if the MSM is giving up on her, can the Leno jokes be far behind? I just hate to see her end up as a figure of ridicule on late night talk shows, but that is where she is currently headed--especially if she loses in Indiana at the end. I'd much rather see her bow out with some shred of dignity left.

Posted by: PTate in MN on May 7, 2008 at 12:10 AM | PERMALINK

Jonathan King wrote:
> Obama should win Lake County, but to win it by 38000 votes
> will be pretty tough, unless he's done completely amazing
> things with the turn-out in Gary.

OK, so it looks like Obama has done at least "fairly amazing" things with the turn-out in Gary.

Meanwhile, MSNBC is reporting that Clinton has cancelled her scheduled appearances on the morning shows today.

Also, her Iowa Electronic Market quotes just hit what I think is a record low.

Posted by: Jonathan King on May 7, 2008 at 12:13 AM | PERMALINK

The media will no longer play along. Pumkinhead just said Obama is the nominee, Clinton has canceled all public appearances.

Posted by: fahey on May 7, 2008 at 12:16 AM | PERMALINK

Did anyone hear the pundits talking about the end game on MSNBC this evening? Supposedly there will be a deal worked out between the two campaigns with the Obama campaign 'giving' the Hillary campaign something to make it worth while for her to end her candidacy. Tra la la. One deal was seating the delegates from MI and FL. I'm not really sure the Obama campaign has the power to do that although the DNC might consider it an easy solution to their problem of 48 states. But get this, another suggestion was that Obama pick up the tab for Clinton's large debt! Pick up the tab for a person who has been dissing him now for months and months? I've never heard of that ever happening before! If such a deal is made and becomes public knowledge, my minimal campaign offerings will quickly come to a screeching halt for intraDem contests. Another idea being tossed around by Harold Ford was offering Clinton the VP slot. No matter how hard I try, I can't see an Obama/Clinton administration. No doubt Clinton as VP would help in the general, but in DC? Unimaginable to me.

Posted by: nepeta on May 7, 2008 at 12:30 AM | PERMALINK

MSNBC, Russert,... More sports metaphors. ug

When will they narrate baseball with references to delegate counts? This country loves sports and treats politics like castor oil or spinach. Alexis de Tocqueville saw and predicted it all. Back then, politics had a fighting chance of being at least equally important. But the drift towards triviality is something he foresaw all too well. And now it's locked in.

A love of triviality -- and a passionate commitment to various styles of triviality -- will be the death of this country.

I personally think it's already too late.

Death-knell trivialities:
- gas tax holidays over sensible policy
- 'freedom' (low taxes) over smart public investment
- hot-button slogans and dog-whistle phrases over true, important distinctions
- cable headline news over good newspapers or web sites
- celebrity over issues
- gotcha questions over substance
- how people look over how they think
- soundbites over substantial arguments
- short-term convenience over long-term sustainability
- thinking that sports metaphors are needed to explain politics
- SUVs over energy freedom
- SUVs over destroying the military
- SUVs over international alliances
- 'tough' foreign policy over smart foreign policy

etc., etc., etc.,...

Posted by: DNS on May 7, 2008 at 12:32 AM | PERMALINK

FYI, the election blog at the Times of NW Indiana seems to be running well ahead of national media in terms of results. They've had a second round of countywide numbers for an hour and a half now: http://www.nwi.com/blogs/election/

Barack Obama 46,759
Hillary Clinton 25,100

That's 65/35, not quite enough for Barack, especially since it includes almost all of Gary already.

Posted by: Michael A. on May 7, 2008 at 12:32 AM | PERMALINK

If there is a person running for president in Nov. with a D after their name they get my vote and any sane person should do the same.

Posted by: R.L. on May 7, 2008 at 12:32 AM | PERMALINK

Looks like it's effectively over tonight.
At long last.

Posted by: twc on May 7, 2008 at 12:33 AM | PERMALINK

You're on the West Coast, right? Not time for bed yet? Looked at Indiana recently? Heard about Russert? No excuses, please, except deaths in the immediate family.

Posted by: malcolm on May 7, 2008 at 12:37 AM | PERMALINK

DNS, what about someone like me who loves both politics and triviality?

Posted by: The May Fool on May 7, 2008 at 12:45 AM | PERMALINK

I'd much rather see her bow out with some shred of dignity left.

Afraid that ship sailed a long time ago. When she started running on GOP talking points and then ended with this transparently bogus gas tax holiday, she lost all dignity and respect as far as I'm concerned. Way past time for her to vacate the stage.

Posted by: jimBOB on May 7, 2008 at 12:52 AM | PERMALINK

Er, make that half an hour ahead of the AP. The blog's timestamps are off. Nobody's perfect!

Posted by: Michael A. on May 7, 2008 at 12:53 AM | PERMALINK

If Clinton says Yes to the VP position, this will be a f***ing landslide.

Posted by: DNS on May 7, 2008 at 1:00 AM | PERMALINK

... and if she says Yes, and the Dems win in a landslide, she will reap benefits FAR beyond the benefits she could expect from staying in this fight.

I hope she thinks about that.

Posted by: DNS on May 7, 2008 at 1:02 AM | PERMALINK

Obama said it correctly tonight in his speech: We're all Democrats and no matter who our nominee is in November, we're going to work hard to defeat John McCain and prevent George Bush from having a third term in the White House.

Any bitter Democrat who votes for McCain or sits out the election is only shooting themselves in the head.

Posted by: ABQkevin on May 7, 2008 at 1:04 AM | PERMALINK

Can you imagine Bill as the 2nd trumpet to the 2nd trumpet?

"Hey Baracky, Listen. I gotta talk to ya 'bout this China problem..."

"We got people on it, Bill. We still on for golf next weekend?"

"Hang on there, hotshot. Yer makin' a big mistake, and..."

Posted by: absent observer on May 7, 2008 at 1:06 AM | PERMALINK

umm, Kev, maybe you'd want to update that post ???

Posted by: trixi on May 7, 2008 at 1:31 AM | PERMALINK

umm, Kev, maybe you'd want to update that post ???

Posted by: trixi on May 7, 2008 at 1:31 AM | PERMALINK

We're all Democrats now!

Posted by: R.L. on May 7, 2008 at 1:34 AM | PERMALINK

Seems to me that the point about Hillary winning Ohio and Pennsyvania was that it kept her in the race, but only in the sense that she was not mathematically eliminated. We have known for a month or more that she had to start knocking off landslide victories in pretty much every remaining contest just to get close. Indiana is about as far from a landslide as possible (22,000 or so out of a million two), and Obama's victory in NC actually is a landslide. Once Obama gets to 1900 delegates, it's pretty much over, if only from the psychological standpoint. This may occur over the next couple of days, or it may take until a day or two after May 20, but it is grinding down as we type.

Posted by: Bob G on May 7, 2008 at 1:35 AM | PERMALINK

The May Fool wrote "DNS, what about someone like me who loves both politics and triviality?"

You can only have both if you demand the politics first, and then choose the triviality. Note the use of the words 'demand' and 'choose'. Only if you have the politics in place can you choose the triviality. If you ignore the politics, you can kiss goodbye to your own preferences. [Or, more realistically, you may be offered your preference -- triviality -- as a bribe for accepting a politics you would never have chosen.]

These arguments are as old as Aristotle, by the way -- nothing new.

So you have to choose. Support someone who offers you your immediate preference (at the cost of your long-term political rights, and perhaps even your long-term preferences) or support someone who supports your political rights -- even if your preferences may suffer, both now and in the future.

America's disease, today, is that it thinks it can have both 'politics' (diluted down to the Hallmark Card dream of 'participation') AND triviality -- while in fact only committing to one thing: HOW TO SECURE TRIVILALITY. People have been anaesthetized into believing that the political-rights element will always be there.

We have been persuaded that our votes can be stolen, our 4th amendment rights erased, and yet we will still be happy, contented consumers.

The truth is that an appreciation of trviality (consumption, gossip magazines, TMZ) is something you have to BUY with a prior concern for politics. If you take, and ingest, and enjoy triviality without paying your political dues (that make this enjoyment possible), then you will end up with the triviality and no political freedom at all. And that's what 'these people' want.

Is 'these people' a caricacture? Not at all. These people exist, and they want you to be drugged, like Homer's Lotus Eaters: dreaming of a world they would love to inhabit, but incapable of doing anything to achieve it.

The Wachowskis got this right: many of us would choose indolence over freedom. And Franklin also got it right: "You have a Republic, if you can keep it."

It's possible to have politics (as a base) and then triviality as icing on the cake. But if people don't pay enough attention to politics, they will lose their politics (their freedom, their rights, their place in society) as they pursue that icing.

I have no argument with you as long as you understand this ranking. What I regret is that so many people place triviality OVER politics. They think that a concern for politics is just another preference among preferences, equally protected by some background or underlying structure of principles and rights that someone else is responsible for protecting - like a superintendent responsible for the plumbing. But this is political ignorance. There are people who DO NOT BELIEVE in this basic foundation. They don't want everyone to have the same rights. They WANT you to be ignorant of your rights. They WANT to prevent you voting. They WANT you to despise politics, and give up on it. [Meanwhile they pay lobbyists to write legislation.]

Historical epics and dramas are not just entertainment; they tell a real story. Villains exist, among us.

If we want to enjoy trivility on our own terms, we must first have a political system that guarantees the freedom in which that enjoyment is protected.

Enough said.

Posted by: DNS on May 7, 2008 at 1:38 AM | PERMALINK

If you don't feel like covering the election, then don't. But this was one lame post. And your comment no better.
First, recent polls didn't predict a 15-20 point victory for Obama and a 5 point Hillary win in Indiana. At least not any time since the Rev walked into the National Press Club.
Since then, Obama's been under siege -- giving Hillary a plausible shot at the nomination for the first time in weeks.
Then tonight happened, and she's a dead [wo]man walking.
Do you disagree? Are have gotten so fed up that you're not paying close attention?

Posted by: Dick M on May 7, 2008 at 1:40 AM | PERMALINK

Well, she hung on. Not that it really matters delegate-wise, but it would have been nice to say she lost both NC and Indiana.

In other news, anyone else notice that Hillary supporters are suddenly not talking about the popular vote total? You see, after North Carolina, Obama now leads Clinton even if you count the beauty contest in Florida, and the non-election in Michigan. Nope, it's another day, another rationale for the Clinton camp. The best her surrogate on CNN could say was that she's leading in a recent Gallop poll....yikes.

Posted by: Joe on May 7, 2008 at 1:47 AM | PERMALINK

It is interesting that exit polls in both Indiana and North Carolina show that 50% of Hillary's voters will not vote for Obama in November.
Posted by: emmarose on May 6, 2008 at 10:15 PM | PERMALINK

Interesting is not the word that comes to mind.

Posted by: e henry thripshaw on May 7, 2008 at 9:55 AM | PERMALINK

game over

Posted by: wren on May 7, 2008 at 2:07 PM | PERMALINK
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