Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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May 7, 2008
By: Kevin Drum

ELECTION THREAD....Was I wrong? In the end, Obama won North Carolina by 14 points and Hillary Clinton eked out only a bare 2-point win in Indiana. Gas tax pandering didn't work, the arithmetic is even more stacked against her than ever, the cable talking heads have almost unanimously declared her dead, Tim Russert says she's cancelled her morning TV appearances, and speculation is rife that she might finally drop out. Maybe the game changed tonight after all.

It's been pretty clear for over a month that Hillary's only chance to win was to hope that Obama got hit by a meteor or something. In the end, though, he got hit by several meteors and it still didn't knock him out. Short of Obama literally keeling over from a stroke, I'm not sure what Hillary has left to hope for. Maybe she's finally figured that out.

Or not. Who knows? Consider this an open election thread.

Kevin Drum 1:47 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (196)

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Comments

All I want to know is if it's safe to start paying attention now.

Posted by: Jimm on May 7, 2008 at 1:48 AM | PERMALINK

Guess she was out to prove him electable, after all.

Posted by: Kenji on May 7, 2008 at 1:49 AM | PERMALINK

Obama surviving the Rev. Wright bullshit was heartening. He has the chops to take on McCain.

Posted by: Old Hat on May 7, 2008 at 1:49 AM | PERMALINK

Does anyone cancel all appearances for reason other than to withdraw, or handle a DUI / prostitution scandal?

Posted by: Xofis on May 7, 2008 at 1:59 AM | PERMALINK

In the final analysis, I think it was all for the best that Clinton put up a good fight. I think that her attacks have strengthened Obama, and in many ways immunized him for November.

Her motivations may have been plain old unfettered self interest and lust for power, but she did provide a valuable service and helped Obama learn how to persevere in face of relentless onslaught of such attacks.

Posted by: gregor on May 7, 2008 at 2:02 AM | PERMALINK

Maybe I was projecting a little, but I swear they looked rattled at Fox. I watched for a little while. Rove was trying to be negative about Obama and was insisting voters wouldn't see Bush when they saw McCain or vice versa, but they all looked glum to me.

I enjoyed the hell out of it.

Posted by: Miss Otis on May 7, 2008 at 2:04 AM | PERMALINK

Have to agree with Gregor. If it is indeed over tomorrow, it will be time for the GOP to sh*t bricks...finally.

Posted by: cthulhu on May 7, 2008 at 2:07 AM | PERMALINK

I have a big smile on my face tonight.

Hillary may not call it off tomorrow, but the tolling bell of the inevitable is getting louder and louder. It's not going to be much longer.

Posted by: lux on May 7, 2008 at 2:13 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin says:

Short of Obama literally keeling over from a stroke, I'm not sure what Hillary has left to hope for.

In an upcoming issue of The Hill:

Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) was spotted chatting with Senator Norm Coleman (R-MN) in the Senate Dining Room this morning. Sen. Coleman was doing most of the talking, and Sen. Clinton could be seen taking notes and nodding often.
Posted by: Another Chris on May 7, 2008 at 2:20 AM | PERMALINK

In her "victory" speech, Hillary said something to the effect of "I will support whoever the nominee will be.." That sounds like she's throwing in the towel..

Posted by: Andy on May 7, 2008 at 2:27 AM | PERMALINK

Regarding potential Vice Predidential running mates, specifically John Lynch, Governor from New Hampshire:

I don't think I could bear to put up a sticker that read "Obama/Lynch 08".

Posted by: anonymous on May 7, 2008 at 2:39 AM | PERMALINK

Wait...so Hillary's dealing with a DUI/prostitution scandal?

Man, I go camping for two days and look what I miss...

Posted by: Winston Smith on May 7, 2008 at 2:42 AM | PERMALINK

I think you mean "meteorite". One cannot be hit by a meteor because the object is actually redefined by the collision.

While it's traveling through space, it's a meteoroid. While it's burning up in the atmosphere it's a meteor, sometimes called a shooting star.

If it survives the Earth's atmosphere and makes actual contact with the Earth (Obama would count as part of the Earth here) then it's a meteorite.

- A

Posted by: Asa Dotzler on May 7, 2008 at 2:42 AM | PERMALINK

I'd say Hillary's campaign is going to be talking it over tomorrow, that's for sure.

I think she was hoping for better in both states than she got. Just a couple points in Indiana isn't all that great, and I thought she was maybe going to cut Obama's lead in NC to single digits. What states are left on the calendar?

Posted by: Doctor Jay on May 7, 2008 at 2:46 AM | PERMALINK

The question for me is what terms are on the table for Hilliary's post-concession career. I am thinking the vp is already on the table as an offer (conditional on Bill never being seen in DC again and spending all vp time on universal medical insurance plan to be rammed through in some fashion). I am also thinking McCain is going to break down and be unable to continue sometime between now and November. My Obama general election campaign has McCain submerged in guilt by association to the point where he will not be able to show his face in public. He has blood on his hands and probably won't like being characterized as a dangerously out of touch early onset dementia case and two time cancer victim. Running against a last minute standin replacement like Mitt should be easy. Maybe Hill can run the War Crimes Prosecution Office too :) I am thinking that promising a Truth and Reconciliation Commission if elected might not be a bad idea either. They can warm up a cell in Elba or Paraguay for Junior to live out his days.

Posted by: Anon on May 7, 2008 at 2:46 AM | PERMALINK

Even if you count Florida and Michigan, Clinton would have to win KY and WV by thirty points, and win Oregon by a nose (she's set to be beaten soundly there) to make up the popular vote deficit.

Counting Michigan (without counting all 'uncommitted' votes for Obama) is a stretch that even Hugo Chavez would blush at, so Clinton is approaching a vote deficit that she couldn't win with 80% of the vote.

Now we have it thus:
* Obama has the pledged delegate plurality locked up.
* Undeclared superdelegates like Obama better than Clinton, by all reports (this stands to reason--Clinton has all the original name recognition and had a lock on the nomination when SDs started declaring--the ones who didn't declare for her had doubts).
* Obama has polled better than Clinton against McCain for most of the time since January.
* Obama is much better for people down-ticket.
* Obama has a lead in popular vote.
* Obama produces an electoral vote calculus with more safe states, and more chance for improvement in the other states.

Clinton is finished. We just have to hope that she hangs on through May 20 so that Obama is spared the embarassment of losing West Virginia and Kentucky with no opponent, and so that Hillary Clinton can quit on an up-note.

Posted by: Benjamin on May 7, 2008 at 2:51 AM | PERMALINK

anon: The question for me is what terms are on the table for Hilliary's post-concession career. I am thinking the vp is already on the table as an offer

Hillary as VP is a non-starter. Obama's entire campaign has been premised on a fresh start, a change from the politics as usual, and on other stark contrasts between such as who supported the war and who opposed it, who takes money from lobbyists and who does not (Clinton was #1 in the senate - around 800k, followed closely by McCain, with Obama technically registering in around 26k).

A Hillary surrogate is a more likely compromise, one who would actually bring a lot to the table in terms of general election strategy (something which Hillary does not do: her base is New York and other neighboring New England states that will go to the Democratic nominee, whoever it is).

Obama will be looking at criteria such as who might help carry a key battleground state (e.g. Ohio, Florida, etc.), a specific demographic (Richardson with Hispanics - which would actually be a very strong move for the Democratic party going forward for the next generation), or perhaps someone who will help shore up his deficiencies versus McCain (e.g. military experience).

Wesley Clark is a Southerner, a military man, and a Clinton supporter - which might help a bit to mend the rift between the two candidates and their respective camps.

But Hillary as VP? Not a chance.

Posted by: Augustus on May 7, 2008 at 3:04 AM | PERMALINK

I think this is going to the Oregon primary at least. After that it really might be over. At that point apparently Obama is likely to have secured the majority of pledged delegates and the superdelegates (given that Obama not only survived these last two weeks but thrived!) will have no reason to keep the contest going.

We're almost there. While it's been a death watch all this time, now we're really seeing the end draw near.

Posted by: reader on May 7, 2008 at 3:09 AM | PERMALINK

Hillary might cast her mind back to 1992, when her husband got hit with scandals/bimbo eruptions and went on to win it all anyway. This year it's Obama who took hit after hit, with the teevee dumping on him 24-7, and yet he's well on his way to probable victory.

Sometimes the stars align and a candidate is just unstoppable. It happened with her husband in '92 and it's happening with Obama now. She should recognize it and get out of the way.

Posted by: jimBOB on May 7, 2008 at 3:20 AM | PERMALINK

Asa,

I disagree. One is struck by a meteor. Once the meteor has struck something, it becomes a meteorite, but at the moment of impact it is still a meteor. Too argue that it is a meteorite at the moment of impact is to argue that one can never be struck by a flying bullet (unless one is on an airplane) since a flying bullet becomes a non-flying bullet at essentially the same point in the process of striking something that a meteor becomes a meteorite.

Furthermore, while a meteor strike might make Obama one with the Earth (I hope that he would survive, and a blow to an extremity or from a particularly small meteor would be survivable), he would not be one with the Earth when the meteor struck. He would not prevent the meteor from continuing on to its final impact with the Earth, and therefore could not be considered to be the thing that turned it from a meteor to a meteorite.

Posted by: Charles S on May 7, 2008 at 3:33 AM | PERMALINK

Regarding the VP slot:

Please not Evan Bayh!!!

That is all.

Posted by: mifflin on May 7, 2008 at 3:49 AM | PERMALINK

15 points not 14. Round after calculating the percentage, not before.

Posted by: James Wimberley on May 7, 2008 at 4:06 AM | PERMALINK

As a student of Zen and a Democrat, I wonder if Obama can really pull it off. His insistence that both the Repubs and Dems are equally guilty for the mess in D.C., while probably correct from a purist Taoist viewpoints, irks me to no end! Also, I have to roll my eyes when I read his supporters wail about how nasty Hillary has
been. If it IS over, she ran a squeaky clean campaign compared to what Obama will face in the fall.

Finally, even his fans don't seem bothered by it, what convinced someone with so little experience that he should be President, or that he would be qualified for it? Is he some version of Neo ala Matrix, simply destined to lead us to the light? I am confident that Hillary would have been a good, if flawed, President. Mr. O will either be cosmically good or awful!

I would love to see Hillary as V.P. but I am certain that Mr. Obama would never offer it to someone so spiritually impure!

Posted by: James M. on May 7, 2008 at 4:59 AM | PERMALINK

Here in Northern New England, we do not consider ourselves to be Hillary's base. However regardless of who the Democrats nominate, McCain has a chance to get enough votes to register in the Electoral College only in Northern Maine and even that is a stretch.

Posted by: Eric on May 7, 2008 at 5:08 AM | PERMALINK

No, it's over now. I just went to play with the Slate delegate calculator. Hillary can win 80% of *every* primary going forward (including *Oregon*,which she isn't going to win, much less win by 80%), and get Florida reinstated with a 60/40% tilt towards her, and *still* lose the elected delegate count, which is the only count that matters, considering the importance of caucus states w/o meaningful popular vote counts.

If she keeps going beyond a week from now, she's just calling her own judgment into question.

Posted by: PghMike on May 7, 2008 at 5:15 AM | PERMALINK

"If she keeps going beyond a week from now, she's just calling her own judgment into question."

What judgment? I have seen no manifestation of judgement (good judgment, anyway) whatsoever. Her entire campaign has been an unmitigated disaster and she and her husband have diminished themselves forever.

Posted by: Helena Montana on May 7, 2008 at 5:25 AM | PERMALINK

"Even more stacked against her than ever"???? How about, "Even more stacked against her than before"? Or: "More stacked against her than ever"?

It's late. You're not thinking clearly. You're angry about and hurt by Hillary's intransigence.

Yes, we ALL hate Hillary. But this clumsy language? Tsk.

Posted by: Anon on May 7, 2008 at 5:40 AM | PERMALINK

Doesn't she look tired?

I wonder what they're not telling us about her health.

Posted by: Laszlo Toth, Jr on May 7, 2008 at 5:51 AM | PERMALINK

This one's been over for awhile, but the MSM has just agreed that it's time to turn the house lights on.

Posted by: low-tech cyclist on May 7, 2008 at 6:19 AM | PERMALINK

Obama's VP choice must have ... military/national security credentials and experience (a notable military record is a big plus.) ... appeal to the rural, blue collar voters, particularly in the South.

My favorite choice is Jim Webb. Marine combat vet. Published author whose books are on the list of required reading for Marine officers. Graduated much higher than 5th from last at the USNaval Academy. Ran an Everyman-populist campaign to win his Senate seat from Virginia. Packs a licensed concealed pistol after his life was threatened. Once a Democrat, then became a Republican, and served as Sec. of the Navy under Reagan, but resigned in protest (Americans once did that) when he couldn't support Reagan administration policy. The policies and iniquities of Bush43, particularly the Iraq War, caused him to become, again, a Democrat. I suppose he was a Reagan Democrat who came home, as, I hope, much of the electorate does this Fall. His roots and personal history are from rural, western Virginia which he celebrates in his book BORN FIGHTING, a good read. Finally, he gave the Democrat response to Bush43's '07 State of the Union Address. It was one of the best political speeches I've heard in many years. He was given a speech to read, and he rejected it, writing his own. It was literate, smart and to the point, and completely dismantled W's address.

He'd be a good surrogate/designated hatchet man for the campaign. He can be very combative, but leaves an impression of brains, not merely testosterone.

For seven+ years, I've been mortified that this formerly great nation was led by a man whose only accomplishment was to refrain from being a fall-down drunk at age 40. Hearing him speak, swagger and smirk on display, has been embarrassing. Perhaps our nation can, once again, be led by people who can not only read books, but can write them, as well. And govern competently.

Senator Webb would be excellent addition to the Democratic ticket.

Posted by: endgameAK on May 7, 2008 at 6:27 AM | PERMALINK

Senator Webb would be excellent addition to the Democratic ticket.

The problem is right there in the first word of your sentence. Let's re-read it slowly:

Senator Webb would be excellent addition to the Democratic ticket.

And now let's add in the implied modifier:

[Virginia] Senator Webb would be excellent addition to the Democratic ticket.


Webb is a Democratic senator from a state that has generally been very tough for Democrats to win. The Democrats hold a 1-vote majority in the Senate (not even that, depending how you count Lieberman).

Whatever his ability to strengthen the ticket -- and I agree that it would be tremendous -- Obama's success as president depends crucially on the implementation of a Democratic legislative agenda.
Taking Webb out of the Senate just carries too high a price.


Posted by: moron on May 7, 2008 at 7:25 AM | PERMALINK

Enough already!!! Hillary needs to go gentle into that good night right now!! In the words of Franz Kafka and Marvin Gaye, Hillary has got to “Give It Up”. In the old days of Monday Night Football, when one team had mounted an insurmountable lead, Don Meredith would start singing “Turn Out the Lights. The Party’s Over”. I want someone to deliver that message to Hillary. The undecided superdelegates need to muster the intestinal fortitude to pull the plug on Hillary’s kamikaze campaign. A delegation consisting of Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean, Al Gore, John Edwards, Joe Biden, James Clyburn, Rahm Emanuel, Jimmy Carter, and Mario Cuomo needs to give Hillary an ultimatum. Hillary should be told that she has until this coming Friday at 12 noon to announce her withdrawal from this race. If she refuses to comply, this delegation should hold a press conference at 12 noon on Friday and announce that they are each endorsing Barack Obama for President.

Posted by: jerry on May 7, 2008 at 7:38 AM | PERMALINK

Augustus: "Hillary as VP is a non-starter. "

Thanks for putting into words what I have only felt as "noooo, bad idea, nooo." HRC is the ultimate Washington insider, the epitome of the political divisiveness that the Obama campaign wants to end.

At this point, getting the VP slot would be a big consolation prize for her, but Obama would gain nothing from it.


Posted by: PTate in MN on May 7, 2008 at 7:53 AM | PERMALINK

Hillary desperately needs an event that serves as both a diversion and a rallying point for her supporters. Martial adventures seem to work well when a politician is on the ropes. Clearly what she needs to do is bomb Iran.

Posted by: steve duncan on May 7, 2008 at 8:09 AM | PERMALINK

I'm not convinced HRC is ready to call it quits, although cancelling her appearances, and not asking for more $$$ in her latest campaign e-mail certainly make it appear that way. Maybe Harold Ickes just hasn't gotten the message, as he's blathering on about an "October Surprise" by repukes if Obama's the nominee.

Just this morning, an HRC aide (didn't see who) was blathering on CNN about her winning 6 out of the last 7 primaries. I don't care if she drops out or not, just stop pushing the RNC talking points about Obama and McCain!

Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on May 7, 2008 at 8:30 AM | PERMALINK

James M. on May 7, 2008 at 4:59 AM:

As a student of Zen and a Democrat...

Yes, but what about this:


Posted by: grape_crush on May 7, 2008 at 8:37 AM | PERMALINK

So... I guess we all owe an apology to Zogby. They were dead on this time considering the +-4 margin of error. Zogby: Obama +14 in NC and Obama +2 in IN.

Posted by: Da5id on May 7, 2008 at 8:40 AM | PERMALINK

Also, I have to roll my eyes when I read his supporters wail about how nasty Hillary has
been. If it IS over, she ran a squeaky clean campaign compared to what Obama will face in the fall.

The best part of getting a nominee will be the end of these kind of formulations. A persistent, vigilant, and vocal defense against negative attacks is a tactic supporters will need in the fall. We've done it for Bill Clinton. We've done it for Hillary Clinton.

... of course, the counter-tactic is Accusation of Whining, so on it goes...

Posted by: apm on May 7, 2008 at 8:43 AM | PERMALINK

Bill looked completely deflated last night. To keep going now would simply be psychopathtic. It would also indicate that she cares more about herself than the country (no big surprise there).

Posted by: crossdotcurve on May 7, 2008 at 8:46 AM | PERMALINK

Webb is a Democratic senator from a state that has generally been very tough for Democrats to win. The Democrats hold a 1-vote majority in the Senate (not even that, depending how you count Lieberman).

Whatever his ability to strengthen the ticket -- and I agree that it would be tremendous -- Obama's success as president depends crucially on the implementation of a Democratic legislative agenda. Taking Webb out of the Senate just carries too high a price.

Posted by: moron on May 7, 2008 at 7:25 AM

Some things to keep in mind:

* Webb's term lasts through 2012.

* Were he to become vice president, Gov. Tim Kaine, a Democrat, would select a successor.

* Unless there's some major disaster, former Gov. Mark Warner will succeed John Warner (they're not related) in the Senate in 2009. The GOP is almost certain to nominate former Gov. Jim Gilmore, whose appeal in increasingly important northern Virginia is minimal, and Mark Warner remains popular throughout the state.

Finally, if all this comes to pass, wouldn't it be fascinating to note how one word -- "macaca" -- not only helped the Senate gain a Democratic majority, but effectively derailed one possible presidential candidate and lifted another to the vice presidency? (Then again, would Obama be in the Senate today had it not been for the actions of actress Jeri Ryan's husband?)

Posted by: Vincent on May 7, 2008 at 8:52 AM | PERMALINK

Re: Senator Webb for VP:
Virignia would still have a Democratic governor in Jan 09 to appoint Webb's replacement, plus 99.9% chance a new Democratice senator in Mark Warner, so the balance of power in the Senate is not a reason to exclude Webb, even not considering likely Democratic gains in other states. Like some other commenters, I initially thought that Wesley Clark would be Obama's best choice for VP, providing the national security credentials he needs, plus the heft of a four star general and West Point first in class. However, I just don't think Clark has enough of the 'kick ass' aspect to give Obama the help he needs with the Reagan democrat vote, for which Webb is the perfect spokesman. The disadvantage is his short tenure in elected office, but his overall resume should make up for that, and with the popular Mark Warner effectively leading the ticket in Virginia, there would be a good chance of Obama leading in the State in polls leading up to November, which could have a kind of spillover effect for culturally conservative democrats in other states ("Gee, if the Virginians think he is ok ......). ObamaWebb08!

Posted by: dcsusie on May 7, 2008 at 8:53 AM | PERMALINK

moron.... (no slur intended).

Please note that the Governor of Virginia is Tim Kaine (Democrat) and as such would likely appoint an acceptable Democrat to replace Sen. Webb.

Now, reply slowly, why is Virginia Senator Webb not an appropriate candidate for the Obama ticket?

Posted by: endgameAK on May 7, 2008 at 8:54 AM | PERMALINK

Can we stop talking about which candidates are looking "tired?"

Fer chrissake - just thinking about running a Presidential campaign exhausts me.

Posted by: Virginia on May 7, 2008 at 8:56 AM | PERMALINK

Speaking of the idiots populating the Times writing staff:

By Adam Nagourney
New York Times
4:01 a.m. ET, Wed., May. 7, 2008
“Her showing in the two states did not permit Mrs. Clinton to cut into Mr. Obama’s lead in pledged delegates or his overall lead in the popular vote.
Indeed, Mr. Obama may have widened his delegate lead over Mrs. Clinton, an outcome with mathematic and political resonance.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WTF? At 4AM Nagourney writes Obama MAY have widened his delegate lead? Uh, didn’t just about every political junkie/journo/pollster/consultant pretty much conclude the night’s results plainly result in a widening of the delegate count in Obama’s favor? He won the larger of the two states in play by a wide margin. How in the hell does “may have widened” even make its way into a paragraph? Geez.


Posted by: steve duncan on May 7, 2008 at 9:02 AM | PERMALINK

Question for all.

Where on the web is there an archive that might have Senator Webb's '07 State of the Union rebuttal?

Posted by: endgameAK on May 7, 2008 at 9:03 AM | PERMALINK

I still like the idea of Warren Buffett for VP. Americans want a game changer, not politics as usual, and Buffett knows a little more than McCain about management and economics. He'd also be very good - folksy and still authoritative - in debates with the Republican opposition about how restructuring healthcare is going to destroy private enterprise.

Posted by: loki on May 7, 2008 at 9:18 AM | PERMALINK

All Obama has to do during the General Election is tell the American people the truth -- that 4 years of McCain will be 4 more years of the same Bush__.

Posted by: bigapplegeorgiapeach on May 7, 2008 at 9:32 AM | PERMALINK

Yes, Doctor, she looks tired. More so than Harriet Jones, I believe.

Posted by: lene on May 7, 2008 at 9:39 AM | PERMALINK

I'll go with endgames plan. Webb has an unchallengeable aura of gravitas. I don't think the press will gang up on him, like is has recently done on Obama.

Posted by: bigTom on May 7, 2008 at 9:49 AM | PERMALINK

Hope she does drop out. I've never had to use a write-in vote before (Obama for president!), so it might save me a bit of trouble.

There's no such thing as a 'Reagan era Democrat": spoiler republicans, every one.

Posted by: slanted tom on May 7, 2008 at 9:51 AM | PERMALINK

I am a Hillary support, who will work hard to elect John McCain. If the Hillary camp even makes an effort to help Barack Obama after all the stuff they have said about the Clintons, I will be disappointed. Why would you want a bunch of race baiters to help you out with the white vote? I look forward to a 40 state defeat for the dems in the fall

Posted by: Adele on May 7, 2008 at 9:54 AM | PERMALINK

"Where on the web is there an archive that might have Senator Webb's '07 State of the Union rebuttal?"

His Senate web site is a good place to start looking, and viola:
http://webb.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=291377&

Posted by: Jon on May 7, 2008 at 9:55 AM | PERMALINK

Doh! Make that "voila." (Blush)

Posted by: Jon on May 7, 2008 at 9:57 AM | PERMALINK

Since we're now apparently able to move on to a discussion of Obama's running mate, I still think that Kansas governor Kathleen Sebelius would be an ideal choice. There are so many factors that run in her favor:

* Being a woman, she could appeal to disheartened Clinton supporters who want to see gender boundaries broken in the executive branch

* Being Catholic, she could appeal to blue-collar Democrats

* Being the governor of a red state, she has demonstrated her ability to appeal across party lines (a "uniter" who would strongly reflect Obama's campaign theme)

* Being a social liberal and economic moderate, she would appeal to independent voters

* Being a governor instead of Senator means that her selection would not reduce Democratic control of Congress.

I'm hoping the Obama team is taking a close look at her.

Posted by: ABQkevin on May 7, 2008 at 10:00 AM | PERMALINK

I am a Hillary support, who will work hard to elect John McCain. If the Hillary camp even makes an effort to help Barack Obama after all the stuff they have said about the Clintons, I will be disappointed. Why would you want a bunch of race baiters to help you out with the white vote? I look forward to a 40 state defeat for the dems in the fall

Posted by: Adele

With Dem's like you, who needs enemies?

Indiana proved yet again, that 4 out of 5 republicans prefer Hillary.

Contests; Obama 32 Clinton 16

Posted by: JoeSixPack on May 7, 2008 at 10:03 AM | PERMALINK

I think you guys are dreaming about Hillary bailing out. I think her only criteria for her will be to take the action that maximizes her chance to someday be president. That action is not bowing out the week before she is about to achieve huge wins in West Virginia and Kentucky (unless she muscles a VP nomination promise from Obama).

By the way, in all the Obama euphoria, anyone notice that in North Carolina he lost whites 61 to 37, and he would lose about 40% of Clinton's voters in the general election against McCain? Overall, only 74% of all Democratic votes in NC would support him against McCain. Cross off North Carolina as a possible Obama state in the Fall. He could still win, but it is looking less likely.

Posted by: on May 7, 2008 at 10:04 AM | PERMALINK

Adele:

*golf clap*

Anyone who thinks the Obama campaign played 'dirtier' than the Clintons is delusional. Personally, I don't think either campaign played very dirty, but come on if using "questionable tactics" was a contest, Hillary would be ahead in that one.

It's staggering to think that a first term black Senator has won a primary campaign against the most famous Democrat in office who's main campaigner was a 2 term US President... I think he'll do fine against a senile Republican Senator who not only isn't very popular in his own party, but can't remember what his stance on issues are for more than 11 minutes, much less tell the difference between Shiites and Sunnis.

Posted by: Da5id on May 7, 2008 at 10:06 AM | PERMALINK

Rezko?

Been a while since the Clintonistas trotted that name out. Wasn't he supposed to be the ultimate defeat for Obama?

Posted by: MNPundit on May 7, 2008 at 10:07 AM | PERMALINK

WELL NOW...won't it be interesting to watch and see the turn our media takes (except for FAUX NEWS) for the general...will they continue to have Obama's back or finally begin to let the crap touch him...it's lovely to be so manipulated and the best part is that many don't even see it...I too hope Hillary does drop out because she's actually been doomed from the time the talk was that she "EXPECTED THE NOMINATION and THOUGHT IT WAS DUE HER"...so they got rid of the woman and I hope everyone is pleased with their selection in the end...course if it's MCCAIN no one will be except the rightwingnuts...

Posted by: Dancer on May 7, 2008 at 10:08 AM | PERMALINK

and he would lose about 40% of Clinton's voters in the general election against McCain?

That's ridiculous. Never gonna happen. The party will rally around Obama, and Hillary will kiss his feet. She has to. She's gotta be elected to the Senate again and if she has designs on Majority Leader, Gov. of New York, Secretary of State, President in 2016.. any of that... she'll have to make nice with the Dems.

Posted by: Da5id on May 7, 2008 at 10:11 AM | PERMALINK

Let me see.. Recycled hope speeches.. the guy who made the original speeches is so popular in massachusetts, that the dems could loose that state in the fall. If the dems see this coalition of African Americans and latte liberals as going to win in the fall.. think again..Too bad, the mayor of Gary Indiana could not steal it last night.. He tried...

Posted by: adele on May 7, 2008 at 10:15 AM | PERMALINK

My favorite part is when lib mainstream media reporters interview racist, sexist black women who mull over whether they should vote for Obama because he is black or Hillary because she is a woman, the reporter maintaining a shit-eating, "you-go-girl" grin of approval on his/her face.

Now if the reporter were to hear from a white male that he couldn't decide whether to vote for McCain because he is a male or Hillary because she is white, the reporter would probably get tight around the mouth and give out one of those quick uh-huh's reporters use to express disapproval and dismissal.

Really, libs, don't you think it is time to tabooize black and Hispanic racism as whites have been conditioned with PC? One analyst says Hillary would have won the primaries if she got 15% of the black vote. Why is it that black and Hispanic racism is so appealing to libs?

Posted by: Luther on May 7, 2008 at 10:19 AM | PERMALINK

So, Adele, you're going to take your ball and go home? What about Supreme Court nominees?

Posted by: blok on May 7, 2008 at 10:20 AM | PERMALINK

"adele" outs "herself." No Democrat has ever used the term "latte liberal." Get lost, liar.

Posted by: David in NY on May 7, 2008 at 10:20 AM | PERMALINK

adele


Hillary is that you?

Posted by: JoeSixPack on May 7, 2008 at 10:20 AM | PERMALINK

Great. Now we've gone from the 2 suckiest Dem candidates to the suckiest one of all left standing. Now Nancy, Harry, Joe and Obama can set about pardoning and giving immunity to all the criminals with an R behind their name.

Posted by: jussumbody on May 7, 2008 at 10:24 AM | PERMALINK

adele on May 7, 2008 at 10:15 AM:

Too bad, the mayor of Gary Indiana could not steal it last night.. He tried...

Shorter Adele: "I'm bitter and I'm clinging to my candidate"..

On a side note:

A campaign aide says Hillary Rodham Clinton lent herself $6.4 million in the past month...
...The loan more than doubles Clinton's personal investment in her bid for the Democratic nomination. She gave her campaign $5 million earlier this year.

Raising money to pay off her debts is probably the best reason Clinton has remaining for continuing her campaign, unfortunately.

Posted by: grape_crush on May 7, 2008 at 10:27 AM | PERMALINK

Anybody sense an air of desperation in trolldom? Their comments make less and less sense.

Posted by: David in NY on May 7, 2008 at 10:27 AM | PERMALINK

DaSid

I agree the 40% number will go down by November, but it has to be a sobering number for the realistic Obama supporters. It shows he has a lot of work to do in terms of trying to move to the center.

As to Hillary, she will do what she deems necessary to keep the dream alive of her becoming president someday. That probably means staying in with the hope of some disaster for Obama, trying to muscle her way into the VP slot when she decides there is no chance of her winning, professing her full support for Obama and doing enough to keep from being tagged with hurting him, hoping he loses, and getting ready for 2012. Right now, she has the New York Senate seat for life.

Posted by: on May 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM | PERMALINK

Fools. Hey, glad to see that Obama won a big state. Oh...but it was a state that voted red last cycle. Nothing has really changed. Hillary can not win the delegate count. Obama can not win the delegate count. Michigan and Florida have to be seated, because the race is too close for them not to be. Hillary needs Obama supporters, and Obama needs Hillary supporters. It will all come down to the superdelegates. And then, our broke party gets demolished in Novemeber.

Posted by: Geoff on May 7, 2008 at 10:28 AM | PERMALINK

I am a Hillary support, who will work hard to elect John McCain.

That would make you a Hillary supporter, not a democrat (although I suspect you're a concern troll). Good, go support John McInsane. That will make you 2 for 2 - losing not only the primary, but the general election as well.

I look forward to your thoughts on just how John McInsane will help this country. Oh yeah, the gas tax holiday! How could I forget? That will cure all the country's ills!

Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on May 7, 2008 at 10:30 AM | PERMALINK

Jon....

Thanks for the lead. That press release was a year later.
For any that may want to read Sen. Webb's Democratic Rebuttal to Bush43's '07 State of the Union speech,

http://webb.senate.gov/newsroon.cfm?id=268014

Like Obama, Webb publicly opposed the Iraq War II before the invasion. His speech will reintroduce him to those who don't know him well. He's a man of honor and good judgement.

Posted by: endgameAK on May 7, 2008 at 10:34 AM | PERMALINK

Adele: I am a Hillary support, who will work hard to elect John McCain.

Then you are an idiot. Seriously. Do you really think the country will be better off with McCain then Obama? Anyone who does not pull the lever for the candidate with the "D" by their name come November needs to reach around, grab their hair (or ears, if bald) and yank their head in one clean jerk, right on out of their ass.

I would say the same to Obama supporters threatening to vote McCain if Hillary got the nod. Amercians have been stuck on stupid for too long. Get a grip.

Truly pathetic, and truly selfish.

Posted by: e henry thripshaw on May 7, 2008 at 10:34 AM | PERMALINK

the guy who made the original speeches is so popular in massachusetts, that the dems could loose that state in the fall

Wait...are we sure "Adele" isn't MHR?

Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on May 7, 2008 at 10:37 AM | PERMALINK

And then, our broke party gets demolished in Novemeber.
Posted by: Geoff

Sure, Geoff, "our" party. Thanks for the concern, troll. Now get lost.

Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on May 7, 2008 at 10:41 AM | PERMALINK

adele:

Whether the pro-Obama mayor of Gary, Indiana was actually guilty of vote tampering or not, three things were accomplished by the delay of Lake County's results.

1) Hillary was prevented from delivering a more enthusiastic victory speech.

2) The Internets, CNN and probably some other networks talked for more than 2 hours on the "What if she loses?" scenario.

3) Any chance of the Indiana result making the newspaper deadline for the Eastern states, was obliterated.

Hard to believe that these two candidates are in the same party.

Posted by: Josh on May 7, 2008 at 10:44 AM | PERMALINK

A lot of disappointed Republican Clinton supporters out there today. Sorry you won't have her to kick around this fall, instead you'll have your asses kicked by a young black man. Enjoy.

Posted by: Ringo on May 7, 2008 at 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

Thank God we have McCain as the Republican nominee (the weakest Republican candidate in my lifetime except for Bob Dole) and George Bush as the worst incumbent President in living memory. Obama's campaign's use of racial posturing and heavy reliance on the monolithic racist black vote (yes I know, in Obama fantasy land 91% black votes for him is natural and laudatory while 60% white votes for Clinton is proof of racism) is not a path to victory in the general election, except against a weak Republican.

If blacks had voted for Clinton in the same proportion as whites voted for Obama (the same proportions that Obama supporters claim prove racism), Obama would have lost NC yesterday and been further behind in Indiana- as well as losing many of the previous primaries. His win and close finish only happened with a black vote 30% higher than what is claimed to be proof of white racism.

In the rarified atmosphere of the screwed up Democratic nominating process (caucuses, proportional apportionment, superdelegates, one campaign actively working to have two battleground states excluded, bonus delegates awarded to urban areas) this naked appeal to racial voting worked, in conjunction with fabricated claims of racism on the part of the other candidate. None of these dogs will hunt in the general.

Obama as a person is much more appealing than the slimey campaign he and his supporters have run. Given all of McCain's weaknesses, I think Obama will win the general by a sizable margin. Of course the themes explored in the primary (any person who criticizes Obama is a racist) won't have much resonance with Republican voters.

I'll hold my nose and vote for him, but our so-called post-racial candidate has done as much in this primary season to divide the country by race as any David Duke style politician before him. Certianly a McCain presidency would be a disaster for the country, while Obama's will probably just be a disappointment.

Posted by: Lucky Year on May 7, 2008 at 10:50 AM | PERMALINK

Hmmm.. I see I am outnumbered here.. I am quaking in my boots.. WAAAAAA WAAAA.. A whole bunch of guys with thin resumes end up being rude... Just like their nominee.. Thin resume + young minority gets nomination over qualified middle aged woman.. Same thing happens at the office almost every day..

Posted by: Adele on May 7, 2008 at 10:53 AM | PERMALINK

The whole Hillary campaign just reminds me a certain type of chess player. When they are overmatched and lose a major piece, like their Queen, they keep playing on and on and on in a slow death march that ends with their being checkmated. Even though the outcome is never in doubt, they keep on, with the hope that their opponent will accidently leave their Queen exposed or even worse, their King.

I used to hate those types of players. Still do.

Posted by: Nobcentral on May 7, 2008 at 10:54 AM | PERMALINK

Trolls getting more and more desperate. And long winded. I recommend ignoring them. (And they make me miss "Al.")

Posted by: David in NY on May 7, 2008 at 10:55 AM | PERMALINK

"what convinced someone with so little experience that he should be President, or that he would be qualified for it?"

The fact that there is so little historical correlation between "experience" and "performance in office", perhaps?

Posted by: PaulB on May 7, 2008 at 11:05 AM | PERMALINK

"Obama as a person is much more appealing than the slimey campaign he and his supporters have run. Given all of McCain's weaknesses, I think Obama will win the general by a sizable margin. Of course the themes explored in the primary (any person who criticizes Obama is a racist) won't have much resonance with Republican voters.

I'll hold my nose and vote for him, but our so-called post-racial candidate has done as much in this primary season to divide the country by race as any David Duke style politician before him. Certianly a McCain presidency would be a disaster for the country, while Obama's will probably just be a disappointment. "


Yep, too true. And it is the height of stupidity to refer to Hillary supporters as Republicans. You will need us to win in November, so insulting us is just plain dumb.

I, too, will hold my nose and vote for Obama in November. I won't like it, but the thought of McCain in the Oval Office is too awful to contemplate.

Posted by: mollycoddle on May 7, 2008 at 11:06 AM | PERMALINK

"Hmmm.. I see I am outnumbered here.."

Of course you are, which is why Clinton lost.

"I am quaking in my boots.."

Dear heart, nobody is trying to scare you or run you off, we're simply pointing out the silliness of your remarks and the consequences of your childishness.

You are, of course, free to ignore us, but continuing to post silly, childish comments simply confirms our opinion of you.

Posted by: PaulB on May 7, 2008 at 11:13 AM | PERMALINK

Obama's veep: Wesley Clark

And it's not just Hillary who lost last night, it's the GOP. Not only did they lose their best GOTV tool (Hillary herself), Hillary showed that the GOP's only talking points against Obama are complete non-starters.

And now they're stuck with McCain, who is basically Bob Dole without a sense of humor, whose senility is degrading whatever national security acumen he might have had. I look forward to the GOP running on national security for two reasons: (1) McCain keeps changing what's left of his mind, and (2) it'll make the GOP look even more irrelevant to the people who still live in the America the GOP ruined.

There isn't enough popcorn in the world for the next six months.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on May 7, 2008 at 11:14 AM | PERMALINK

Bob Dole without a sense of humor

Yes. An apt political epitaph if ever there were one.

Posted by: David in NY on May 7, 2008 at 11:17 AM | PERMALINK

Been a while since the Clintonistas trotted that name out. Wasn't he supposed to be the ultimate defeat for Obama?

It didn't help that Rezko's co-defendants kept giving money to Clinton after Obama sent Rezko's money back.

Heh.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on May 7, 2008 at 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

Thin resume + young minority gets nomination over qualified middle aged woman.. Same thing happens at the office almost every day.

Well, somebody wants to party like it's 1979.

I'm enjoying watching your generation die off. Wright and Limbaugh deserve each other, but they have to die some time and the world will be much relieved.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on May 7, 2008 at 11:26 AM | PERMALINK

There isn't enough popcorn in the world for the next six months.

Nope. Needed it for Ethanol. Sorry 'bout that.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 11:30 AM | PERMALINK

I am a Hillary support, who will work hard to elect John McCain.

Since Hillary's support drops off under 65, I'm thinking that her female supporters don't really give a shit about reproductive rights anymore, and can afford to throw away those of younger generations.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on May 7, 2008 at 11:31 AM | PERMALINK

Would you like some rainwater with that, thers?
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on May 7, 2008 at 11:33 AM | PERMALINK

Thin resume + young minority gets nomination over qualified middle aged woman.. Same thing happens at the office almost every day.

Oh, and it's the Obama camp that are whiners? Nobody's criticizing you for your alleged support of HRC, but rather for your pledge to vote for John McInsane, instead. Aside from the idiotic "gas tax holiday" idea, are HRC and McInsane really that close ideologically? If so, I'm doubly glad I threw my support behind Obama.

I have said all along that the dems had a number of qualified, exciting candidates, and I'd be proud to vote for any if nominated, HRC firmly included. But to hear the whining from some posters accusing Obama's camp of runnung a dirty campaign is just so disingenuous.

Did Obama repeat RNC talking points to criticize his opponent? Oh, no, that was HRC! Did Obama refer to John McInsane as "fully qualified" to be president, while questioning the qualifications of his opponent? Oh no, that was HRC! Did Obama compliment John McInsane's support for the war, while questioning his opponent's objections to the war? Oh no, that was...I think you know the answer.

Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on May 7, 2008 at 11:40 AM | PERMALINK

A Barack Obama nomination brings good news and bad. First the bad, nor he or his campaing team know how to run a general election campaign, and his lack of experience will be a stumbling block for him when it comes to discussions on the economy and national security. The good, this election will have one of the largest turnouts in history, and he will need a big push from African American votes to edge out McCain. I firmly believe that if Hillary were nominated, pro-Barack, African American voters would not return to the polls with the same fervor for her in a general election.

Posted by: Ryan on May 7, 2008 at 11:41 AM | PERMALINK

We've got 6 contests left: West Virginia, Kentucky, Oregon, Puerto Rico, Montana, and South Dakota. Hillary will no doubt win West Virginia and Kentucky, and she should do well in Puerto Rico (I think), but....

After crunching some numbers, even if Hillary ran unopposed, captured 100% of the vote, and won all the delegates available in West Virginia, Kentucky, and Puerto Rico, guess what? She still doesn't catch Obama.

And Obama should do well in Oregon, Montana, and South Dakota.

There is simply no possible way Hillary can win this.

Posted by: Joe on May 7, 2008 at 11:46 AM | PERMALINK

Adele, who is the political equivalent of Scout Finch saying, "Pass the damn ham, please," is getting much, much more attention that she deserves. We need to welcome Clinton supporters who are Democrats first and who are really committed to Democratic ideals and principles. We don't need to waste time on the minority who are wholly unreasonable and ego-driven. That would go for Obama supporters, too, if he had lost the nomination.

Re Jim Webb: I like him very much, but he magnifies the potential for portraying our ticket as light on experience (time served). That may be outweighed by his many positives--I'm not sure.

Posted by: shortstop on May 7, 2008 at 11:49 AM | PERMALINK

Optical Weenie is licking her wounds today and will spend the next few days "healing" and reprogramming. But don't expect a religious conversion.

Posted by: optical weenie on May 7, 2008 at 11:50 AM | PERMALINK

Instead of dropping out today, Clinton will be trying to claim the Florida and Michigan delegates.

Posted by: Brojo on May 7, 2008 at 11:52 AM | PERMALINK

Put me down in the Webb for VP camp.

That way he could rail on McCain for months about how he was FOR the veterans before he was AGAINST them.

He's a legitimate expert on matters military and would boost the ticket in the foreign policy area to be at least equal to St. McCain. Better, I would argue, because Webb's military experience wasn't limited primarily to a prison cell as was McCain's.

PS. Is there any truth to that stuff about the Forrestal?

Posted by: Cal Gal on May 7, 2008 at 12:03 PM | PERMALINK

PS. Is there any truth to that stuff about the Forrestal?

Don't touch it. That meme is crawling with psycho anti-semite conspiracy theorists.

Better to attack McCain for his demonstrable ignorance of national security in the present day.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on May 7, 2008 at 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

I invented a new word this morning: Sidamoh.

It’s an acronym for Shut It Down And Move On, Hillary.

It’s pronounced suh-DOM-oh. (Or Saddam-O.)

Feel free to use this new word as a shorthand way of expressing your belief that Hillary should concede defeat, make peace with Obama, and begin campaigning for Obama and against John McBush.

Posted by: hermit crab on May 7, 2008 at 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

Read this and weep... http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB120977620145164219-lMyQjAxMDI4MDA5MzcwNzM2Wj.html

Posted by: adele on May 7, 2008 at 12:07 PM | PERMALINK

Assume a meteor/-oid/-ite at a distance X from Barack Obama. Before it can strike him, it first must reach a point at a distance X/2 from Obama. But before it can reach that point, it must first reach a point at half that distance. And so on, ad infinitum. Therefore a meteor/-oid/-ite cannot ever strike Barack Obama.

Next time, you better bring kryptonite.

Posted by: Zeno on May 7, 2008 at 12:07 PM | PERMALINK

Weenie,

No religious conversions required, or expected. Would a new pair of shoes help with the healing?

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 12:09 PM | PERMALINK

Adele at 12:07 discovers shocking news in the WSJ Opinion page: Deval Patrick and Barack Obama are both -- gasp -- Negroes!

Deval Patrick has trouble with a racist and corrupt Mass. Legislature. Therefore, Obama will fail as President.

There it is. Now the rest of you don't have to go read the WSJ editorial.

Give Me A Break.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

Die, Dracula Die!

Posted by: cazartvanhelsing on May 7, 2008 at 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

According to Plouffe's email this am Obama has overwhelming support from Dem governors, senators, house reps i.e. actual candidates for office among the super dels. Hill does better with DNC types, i.e. old warhorses, courtesans from the Clinton years, etc. who aren't running for anything and don't have any skin in the game in the fall.

All super dels want to see Dems win up and down the ballot in November. Even the diehards among them that were hoping for a Clinton restoration and thus a restoration of their influence are seeing the writing on the wall.

Obama has gained 107 super dels since 2/5 to Hill's 21. That's over a 5 to 1 margin. Even since
PA and Wright he's been beating her 21-17.
He's killed her momentum, little KY and WV won't get it back.

In football parlance she's trying to make the playoffs with a 6 & 8 record when the division leader is at 9 & 5. She lost too many big games early on and her only chance is to get the league
to change the qualifying rules midseason using exhibition game wins, yardage thrown, touchdowns scored but not field goals, ticket sales, and other irrelevant criteria.


Posted by: markg8 on May 7, 2008 at 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

Ryan:

[Obama's]lack of experience will be a stumbling block for him when it comes to discussions on the economy and national security.

Do you really think so? McCain has already stated that "The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should." To prove it he supports the holiday from gas taxes. He promotes the 10,000 years in Iraq plank, while the majority of Americans don't believe we should have gone in, and want us out ASAP. You really think that Obama will be at a disadvantage in discussing these matters with McCain?

Obama's debate skills were sharpened up against Hillary, who proved to be an excellent opponent. I'm worried that a McCain/Obama debate might result in a "pity" vote bump for McCain.

Posted by: cowalker on May 7, 2008 at 12:23 PM | PERMALINK

Thersites, it's a little late for shoes, I started wearing my flip flops on Monday. Summer is officially on the way.

Posted by: optical weenie on May 7, 2008 at 12:26 PM | PERMALINK

MeLoseBrain?

If you don't think that our lack of unity going into November will be trouble, you just are not very savy. If you can not look back over the last 10 years (perhaps longer) and see how poorly the party has responded, then you must have been asleep. If you all think that the Democratic nomination is a done deal because of how ruinous Bush is, you are forgetting John Kerry's defeat. If you put down your cool aid for a moment, you will realize that the recipe is for disaster in November. And, no, that is not Hillary's fault, but she will be richly blamed by slower Democrats like yourself and the mass media. (Nice company by the way).

Posted by: Geoff on May 7, 2008 at 12:30 PM | PERMALINK

Read this and weep...

For my country, yes. You are too stupid to breathe.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on May 7, 2008 at 12:34 PM | PERMALINK

meteoright: one aimed at Republicans

meteorleft: one aimed at Democrats

meteorwrong: one which misses Republicans, or strikes a Democrat

meteorighteous: one aimed at any Creationist

meteorselfrighteous: one aimed at Rush Limbaugh

meteohemmoroidite: one aimed at any asshole, left or right

Posted by: Martin Richard on May 7, 2008 at 12:39 PM | PERMALINK

I personally thought that the gas-tax pandering, the recycling of the Reverend Wright manufactured controversy, and the general Hillary momentum would have had Obama lose Indiana by 10 percentage points or more, but, echoing other poster's sentiments, I was very heartened that he barely lost Indiana in a primary, with all of its demographics and attitudes.

At this point, the Reverend Wright controversy was prematurely shot by the right-wing. They are going to regret trying to bring back a dead-horse in the fall, when all of John McCain's gaffe's and compromised-statements will be given the full view that they should. He is a flawed, and compromised candidate, and that much will be seen.

I have to thank Hillary Clinton, though. This primary process has been healthy for Obama, because the scandals are out, and Obama survived. Barack is tougher, more seasoned, and better equipped to handle the Republican Party than he would have ever been before. The media attention given to these two candidates has amounted to free advertising, and the jump that Barack Obama will receive once he becomes the first viable African American nominee from a major political party will be huge. Like it or not, voters do not want to stand in the way of history, and John McCain embodies that history by his very age. Bring on McCain, but I say the race is over, and Barack Obama is the next prez.

Posted by: Boorring on May 7, 2008 at 12:40 PM | PERMALINK

"I'm enjoying watching your generation die off."

Baby boom generation- 1946-1964

Sen. Obama born- 1961

Therefore the hate-filled comment above can be viewed as a desire for Obama to die (along with millions of his fellow citizens).

Too stupid to breathe, indeed.

Posted by: Lucky Year on May 7, 2008 at 12:44 PM | PERMALINK

Geoff -

Toobin repeatedly made the point on CNN last night that the exact same thing was being said of Bush-McCain in 00. There was great division within the party. Poll data similarly showed that Bush supporters wouldn't support McCain and vice versa. And we all know what happened. In the end, the GOPers didn't want Al Gore so they ponied up and voted for Bush. Even McCain supporters who thought Bush was a serious SOB for his black baby in South Carolina BS.

You're right that unity is necessary. But I wouldn't take too much stock in polls which suggest that HRC supporters won't back Obama in Nov. It's an easy thing to say now (since they still, oddly, think that HRC has a chance) but there's nothing like the clean smack of reason that follows listening to McCain talk about policy. At the end of the day, Obama's gonna win the whole tamale because there are very few democrats crazy enough to think that McInsane would actually be a better choice than Obama.

But, the sooner we get some serious party healing goind the better. All the more reason for HRC to shut things down and endorse Obama now.

Posted by: Nobcentral on May 7, 2008 at 12:45 PM | PERMALINK

There is simply no possible way Hillary can win this.

Neither can Obama, without the supers, but never mind that.

You moronic Obamazooids out there that can't wait to get personal digs in on Hillary's character are fucking everything up. I used to think that having mass exodus of Hillary supports in the general was ludicrous. I was wrong. You know why? The working class Hillary supports I talk to don't see Obama as himself or for what he stands for. When they look at him, all they see and hear is the frantic Hillary hating wing of his supporters. Every time I start to make end roads on getting them to see the man, she does not do as well as expected and the shit eating grins come out and her character starts getting attacked, and I lose them. Nice work elitists, cut off your nose to spit your face. If you know what's good for the party you should keep the Hillary bashing to yourself.

Posted by: elmo on May 7, 2008 at 12:47 PM | PERMALINK

Elmo -

You're the worst of them all. But your comment just highlights the need for HRC to drop out NOW. The sooner this whole ridiculous hatemongering for both candidates ends the sooner we can turn the scope on John McInsane and win back the presidency.

Posted by: Nobcentral on May 7, 2008 at 12:52 PM | PERMALINK

I was tending towards Obama until I heard both candidates speak here in North Carolina. To my great surprise the characterization of Obama as a speaker who delivers vapid rhetoric to an overly adoring crowd was not too far off the mark. I had seen him speak in Illinois when he was running for the Senate to groups large and small and I was quite struck by the difference between then and now. I don’t know if this is just a posture for the election or a reflection of the man himself. I found Hillary, who I tend to dislike because of her DLC conservatism, to be quite substantive in comparison. She presented herself as more liberal than I would have thought. This experience has made me think she should would make a better president, although her performance as a candidate has been lackluster given her experience and that of her advisers.

Posted by: bellumregio on May 7, 2008 at 1:03 PM | PERMALINK

Turn out the lights. The party's over.

Posted by: Ron Byers on May 7, 2008 at 1:13 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, WAIT!

I get it!

Obama got hit by . . . a media Wright!

Ha!

Posted by: The Fabulous Mr. Toad on May 7, 2008 at 1:16 PM | PERMALINK

Re: Webb for VP

As a Virginian who voted for and likes Webb a lot, I have to differ with those promoting him for the VP job.

The main reason is that he is a lousy campaigner and a lousy speaker, at least on the stump. Despite the Dem sweep of '06, he would have lost had it not been for the macaca flap.

He's doing great work in the Senate and should stay there.

On the other hand, maybe his campaigning skills have improved. One thing's for sure: he's not a natural politician.

Posted by: jduffy on May 7, 2008 at 1:16 PM | PERMALINK

There is not a single instance in modern history where a running mate made a difference. Although many point to Lyndon Johnson, post-election analyses (several) revealed LBJ did not add anything to Kennedy's victory. Nixon did not keep Ike from winning twice. Spiro Agnew did not keep Nixon from winning twice. Ed Muskie could not save Hubert Humphrey. Lloyd Bensen could not save Michael Dukakis. R. Danforth Quayle did not derail George HW Bush's victory in '88 and did not play a role in HW Bush's defeat in '92. And so on and so forth. In fact, it could be argued that a lousy running mate may help - be the bad cop, take away negative attention from the standard-bearer. Could this have been true in '68 and 88?

Posted by: maxgowan on May 7, 2008 at 1:20 PM | PERMALINK

Nawww . . . Dukakis was hopeless.

Posted by: maxgowan on May 7, 2008 at 1:22 PM | PERMALINK

I just got some mapping software on my computer at home and am again amazed at the information the internets give us for free. Just for fun, I got a layer of precincts and the results of the presidential primary in San Diego in February. I computed Obama's and Clinton's percentage of the Obama-plus-Clinton vote and mapped it according to the percent Obama won (0-33, 34-49, 50, 51-66, 67-100). What surprised me is that there were no big swathes of ground all one color. Strong Clinton precincts were right next to strong Obama precincts. I infer from this either that San Diego is extremely integrated demographically or (more likely) not as much separates Obama and Clinton supporters as the pollsters tell us.

Posted by: anandine on May 7, 2008 at 1:42 PM | PERMALINK

*?

Posted by: mhr on May 7, 2008 at 1:48 PM | PERMALINK

Xofis: Does anyone cancel all appearances for reason other than to withdraw, or handle a DUI / prostitution scandal?

Let's start a rumor. She cancelled all appearences because:

-- She was having an abortion of a retarded child by her gay, black, Chinese, Mexican immigrant lover

-- She was voluntering at a soup kitchen with no publicity

-- She is taking a class in literacy at the public library and is embarassed about it

-- She is attending classes in Islam and will be converting after the November election

-- It is a full moon, and she is a werewolf

-- She is a superhero and had to go save the world

Posted by: anandine on May 7, 2008 at 1:49 PM | PERMALINK

Grand Moff Texan: I'm enjoying watching your generation die off

Trying not to take that personally.
Oh, never mind that.
Fuck you.
And the horse you rode in on.
And the horse that fucked you.
And the horse whose penis is in your stupid drooling mouth.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 1:50 PM | PERMALINK

Don't feel bad, Mr. Texan.

Thersites talks like that ALL of the time.

What a hate merchant. That's a stirring string of non-sequiturs and images, Thersites. Does your mother know you talk that way?

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 1:51 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, Norman, I've never spoken to you that way. Although you've exhibited a dislike for me, you've stopped short of urging me to drop dead.

Have a nice day.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 1:54 PM | PERMALINK

Come on, Thersites.

Why don't you engage a professional like myself for a while?

How much of that seething hate are you going to spew all over the place today? Are you going to get profane and start insulting people who disagree with you? At least when I do it, I have flair and talent. You make it look like someone rolled out of the gutter and found a free laptop with half the commentary already typed in for you.

This is your uncle Norman explaining things to you, Thersites. Your day is done. Your time is up. I will engage you and answer you and stalk you just like you thought you could stalk me. You respond to things like a shrill, panicked fool.

Welcome to the future.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 1:55 PM | PERMALINK

she should would make a better president

After listening to Sen. Obama Monday, I felt that way, too. Sen. Clinton would be expected to keep things pretty much as they are. Even if the economy and foreign policy would be under better stewardship than W. Bush, it would still be formulated to benefit the wealthiest at the expense of everyone else. Four to eight years later, we (progressives, liberals, and leftists) will be right back where we started, just like with the first President Clinton. A President Obama will be expected to change things, and that will not only make things difficult for him by the defesne-petro-finance ruling coalition, but from his base constituency, also. A bumpy ride to positive change is preferrable to a smooth ride into more of the same.

Posted by: Brojo on May 7, 2008 at 1:57 PM | PERMALINK

[Knock it off. Rant all you want, but no IP addresses, no phone numbers, no home addresses. --Kevin]

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 1:59 PM | PERMALINK

"At this point, the Reverend Wright controversy was prematurely shot by the right-wing. They are going to regret trying to bring back a dead-horse in the fall."

I am a strong Obama supporter and have been since before he chose to make this very impressive White House run, but I am not nearly as sanguine as you.

The "good" Reverend Jeremiah Wright has a book coming out in, wait for it... October. Considering the unhinged vehemence of his National Press Club performance and his promise to "come after" Obama, I think you can take him at his word. This former war hero has essentially sold his soul for 15 minutes of fame, and in case you hadn't noticed, he's enjoying it.

Wright himself seems intent on bringing Barack Obama down to his level. I wish I could relish the irony. Wright's actions last week are simply indefensible and the only logical light I can see for them is that an Obama victory would repudiate the race-based grievances that he has made a career (apparently) out of exploiting. The only consolation will be if he is so off-the-charts batshit that he actually evokes sympathy for Obama, but it does on some level call into question Mr. Obama's judgment in failing to distance himself from this egomaniac earlier.

Posted by: Piper on May 7, 2008 at 2:05 PM | PERMALINK

Normie,
It was much nicer yesterday when peej visited. At least he wasn't confrontational.
If you're going to pick on Thersites, watch out!
I got his back!

Posted by: optical weenie on May 7, 2008 at 2:08 PM | PERMALINK

Feel free to play with those addresses, liberals. It's just Thersites pretending to not be himself when he goes off "half-cocked," pun intended...

You won't play today? You keep denying something that I've already had proven to me by accident, a happy accident that I'm not going to share with you. An accident of shifting blame and strangers in the night exchanging knowing glances. You seem angry. Flustered. Not yourself. Troubled. Caught. Panicking, to be certain.

You're not feeling the heat of anger and the frustration of having no talent or ability? I would think that would set your little brain to boil, with the frog in the pot turning redder by the moment. You think I'm frail and helpless and not worth the bother?

I assure you, sir. I am anything but that.

And, no, "Peej" never visited this blog, because that's something being done by someone stupid. So disabuse yourself of that.

Defend Thersites all you like, but as unhinged as he just was about the whole "horse penis" thing is exactly how unhinged he is in real life and on my blog, sir.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 2:12 PM | PERMALINK

Norman,
I have no quarrel with you.
Please go away. A few of those IP's might be mine but they can't all be me.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 2:12 PM | PERMALINK

Can we take a break from the Jr-Hi level insults to take note of some actual news? Here's today's information on the nomination from the Iowa Electronic Markets:

The contract for Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton lost well more than half its value in trading on the University of Iowa's Iowa Electronic Markets following her defeat in the North Carolina primary Tuesday.

The contract price for Clinton on the IEM's Democratic Nomination Market stood at 9 cents as of 9 a.m. CDT Wednesday, well off the 26 cents she had been trading for at midnight Tuesday and the 22 cents she had been trading for during the day. The price means that IEM investors believe there is only a 9 percent probability that she will be the Democratic Party's nominee for president.

Meanwhile, Barack Obama's contract was trading at 87 cents this morning, up from the 74 cents he had been trading at during the day Wednesday. The number means that investors believe there is an 87 percent probability that Obama will be the Democratic nominee.

Clinton's fall began around 8 p.m. Tuesday, as news organizations started to report that Obama had won North Carolina by a decisive margin. At 7:30 p.m., her price stood at about 22 cents, but by 8:30 p.m., it had fallen to 13 cents.

In that same hour, the price of Obama's contract jumped from about 73 cents to 83 cents.

Trading was moderate on the Democratic Nomination Market, with 8,500 contracts trading hands Tuesday.

Meanwhile, on the IEM's Presidential Election Winner Take All market, investors still give the edge to whoever the Democratic nominee is to beat presumptive Republican nominee John McCain. As of 9 a.m. Wednesday, a contract for the Democratic nominee was trading at 55.1 cents, meaning investors believe there is a 55.1 percent probability the Democratic candidate will win the popular vote count in the November general election. A contract for the Republican nominee-presumably McCain-was trading at 45 cents.

Posted by: Peter A on May 7, 2008 at 2:16 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, they're ALL of you and you know it.

Were you actually intelligent or smart about these things, you'd know that.

I asked you to stop stalking me, and you didn't do it. Welcome to the future, Thersites. Welcome to your future. You tried to ruin my blog with your idiocy and crap and you got caught. You do exactly the same thing here and pretend no one is paying attention. Well, your uncle Norman is paying attention and I have no intention of putting up with it. Stay away from me, stay away from my blog, and if your IP addresses are logged on my blog from here on in, it will escalate and become rather unpleasant for you. Leave me alone and you will be left alone. That's how that works.

Care to insult me with a "penis" reference? Think you could "come" up with something good for the kids?

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 2:18 PM | PERMALINK

Wait, Normie has a blog? What...blogspot.ChickenshitsRUs.com?

Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on May 7, 2008 at 2:20 PM | PERMALINK

Peter A,

Write that yourself? Or did you publish something that fell out of the ass of someone without a hint of talent?

It reads the same way backwards and forwards, sir.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 2:20 PM | PERMALINK

If you all think that the Democratic nomination is a done deal because of how ruinous Bush is, you are forgetting John Kerry's defeat.

OK, I'll play, Geoffy. The mistake made with Kerry was dems worrying more about electability. OK, let's nominate a guy who aupported the war, so we can diminish the differences between the candidates.

Well, let's see, Geoffy, who of the dem candidates supported the war? Paint it any way you like, HRC voted for AUMF, just as McCain did. In the minds of many voters, she would be no different than he. Now, I know she would be a afar better president than John McInsane, but to voters less ideologically inclined, the differences between them begin to blur.

Posted by: MeLoseBrain? on May 7, 2008 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK

Posting comments at reactionaries' blogs with the same posted by identity can be dangerous and leave one open to exposure. Besides, on the internets no one knows if the blogger is an NSA dog.

Posted by: Brojo on May 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM | PERMALINK

That whole gas tax holiday is just transparent pandering. I am glad Obama isn't falling into that trap and happy that the voters support him. She should have known better—and I say this as someone who voted for her in the primary. We don't need Bush lite for an energy policy.

Posted by: leslie on May 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM | PERMALINK

Obama VP – an ex-military would be good. Clark is good, Zinni even better.

Oh, and Norman, your guy McCain is going down in November.

Posted by: fafner1 on May 7, 2008 at 2:33 PM | PERMALINK

Norman,
If you are going to throw pies, today's flavor is lemon meringue.

Thersites,
I gots my pitchfork out, I'm ready. Oh and I'll bring a laser or two, a fiber splice, an a couple really strong RF xmitters so we can really knock Norman's blog, and communications link, to the moon.

Posted by: optical weenie on May 7, 2008 at 2:34 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, and Norman, your guy McCain is going down in November.

Rudy Guiliani was "my guy" and he's not running this fall.

It doesn't really matter to me who wins the next Presidential election. Thersites is my only concern. I have cancelled my subscription to the newspaper, anticipating that I won't have the free time to read it anymore because I'm going to have to be here, monitoring every single thread on the three computer monitors arrayed in front of me, ready to isolate and destroy him and mock his every "cock-up" with a hearty laugh.

But good for you. You chose the inexperienced candidate over the one who could have actually won. My, you're full of confidence!

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 2:38 PM | PERMALINK

Cancel the pitchforks. I think we've reached a truce. But thanks.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 2:42 PM | PERMALINK

Please Sen. Obama, no military for VP. A military VP is antithetical to the anti-war advocates who have supported the change candidate. Nominating a mititary person to be the Democratic VP candidate is a message communicating there will be no change.

The Republican Webb resigned as Reagan's Sec. Navy because of a reduced budget for useless war ships. He would make a terrible Democratic VP.

Posted by: Brojo on May 7, 2008 at 2:43 PM | PERMALINK

Separated at birth: John McCain and Grandpa Simpson.

Posted by: fafner1 on May 7, 2008 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK

There have been plenty of (enjoyable) flame wars in Political Animal comments, but no one has ever stooped so low as Norman Rogers today, except for

Posted by: Brojo on May 7, 2008 at 2:48 PM | PERMALINK

What a wimp you are, Thersites!

Just when I thought you were going to become a man and get all angry and start running around with a "hard-on" for me, you give up.

Wah, wah, wah. You're a pitiable baby and not much of an adversary.

Please Sen. Obama, no military for VP. A military VP is antithetical to the anti-war advocates who have supported the change candidate. Nominating a mititary person to be the Democratic VP candidate is a message communicating there will be no change.

Yes, that's very good advice. Perhaps he should pick Britney Spears or the little fellow who does the American Idol thing, that Ryan Seacrest fellow. You might think me a concern troll, but if he were to follow exactly what you're saying Brojo, I do believe he'd win exactly 32% of the popular vote and give old John McCain a veritable landslide.

People, pay attention to Brojo. She speaks the unvarnished truth--the military is evil!

Bwah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah!

I haven't had a good laugh like that since Thersites thought he was tough and could use "stiff" language.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 2:51 PM | PERMALINK

Brojo: Please Sen. Obama, no military for VP.

I (ever so politely and respectfully) disagree. Someone like Clark, or Webb, with military credentials who has opposed the current misadventure would add a great deal to the ticket, in my opinion.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 2:52 PM | PERMALINK

Not necessarily, Brojo. There are a lot of retired and former military people who are against the war in Iraq and have been from the outset.

I realize that we are the group against whom you have deep prejudice, and we for the most part defend your right to hate us on a visceral level.

But the fact remains that there are a lot of voters who will be skittish about the lack of military experience, and the right VP choice would go a long way to palliating that doubt among voters he will need in order to win.

Posted by: Blue Girl, Red State on May 7, 2008 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK

Uh Kevin, do we need to call an ambulance for Norman? He seems extra frothy today. Wonder if he was really rooting for Clinton all along?

Posted by: optical weenie on May 7, 2008 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK

Brojo,

Have you ever heard Zinni speak. He is totally consistent with an anti-war change candidate. You evidently don't know it, but large parts of the officer corps are anti-Bush and anti-Iraq war (after all, they have to deal with all the shit Bush has brought down). Running against Grandpa McCain on an anti-military platform would be portrayed by the R's as no change for the D's.

Posted by: fafner1 on May 7, 2008 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, I've gone as low as can be, sir. I'll go lower. If the lowest level is here, then lower it, because I'll go even lower than that. When you're not looking, I'll go still even lower than that. Just because I can, sir.

I'm a businessman. It's what we do. We get down in the gutter and fight with both hands, sometimes our teeth, and every once in a while, we fight with our calf muscles and our shins. We kick, claw, scratch and bite and howl with victory when we secure a deal or make a sale. It's the American way.

I am a winner. I always win. I sit atop a pile of gold for that exact reason. Except it's not so much as a pile as it is a good amount in a safety deposit box in a bank that would make a rather small mound that would lean to one side. But you get where I am going.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 2:57 PM | PERMALINK

Anonymity is required for debates that encompass all points of view on the internets. Mr. Drum has created this fantastic space with that in mind, I think. Political Animals ought to be careful linking to any commenters' hypertext or commenting on other Political Animals' blogs with the same identity, posted by name, geographical or otherwise, because it could be used to capture personal information for later exposure by people without the kind of integrity Mr. Drum and the Washington Journal have demonstrated.

Posted by: Brojo on May 7, 2008 at 3:02 PM | PERMALINK

Brojo,

Do you have what they call "google mail?" I'd be happy to invite you to be a member of my exclusive blog. I won't charge you the $29.95 that I'm charging everyone else.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 3:12 PM | PERMALINK

Norman: "..We get down in the gutter and fight with both hands, sometimes our teeth, and every once in a while, we fight with our calf muscles and our shins. We kick, claw, scratch and bite and howl with victory when we secure a deal or make a sale"

Gee, Norman, is that really the way you treated your customers? Hard to believe you ever made a sale. Easy to see why you liked Rudy. Actually you sound like an old boss I had. I quit that job.

Posted by: fafner1 on May 7, 2008 at 3:14 PM | PERMALINK

When any high ranking military officer advocates for reducing the military budget, dismantling the hundreds of foreign military bases and ending the use of our military might to abuse the weak, I probably still would not support them for VP or any public office.

When a high ranking military officer publicly advocates for Nuremberg-like investigatons, trials and punishments for all military leadership after any use of military force, then I will reconsider my institutional prejudice.

Posted by: Brojo on May 7, 2008 at 3:14 PM | PERMALINK

Gee Brojo, are you going to apply the same requirement for non-military VP candidates? By your listed criteria, I don't think Obama would qualify.

Posted by: fafner1 on May 7, 2008 at 3:20 PM | PERMALINK

Brojo, darling--

I've gone into "google E-mail" and I'm setting up an account for you.

THESE addresses are available--please choose one:

Brojo_isadouchebag@gmail.com
Brojo_wearsagirliesmile@gmail.com
Brojo_makesbunsinheroven@gmail.com
Brojo_hatesAmerica@gmail.com
Brojo_lovesosama@gmail.com

Just let me know, and hurry. My Internets are funky these days.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 3:21 PM | PERMALINK

I won't charge you the $29.95 that I'm charging everyone else.

You SOB, you said the $34.95 I'm paying was a "special deal." And here I thought our romantic weekend of skeet shooting and shopping for bootleg Bobby Fuller Five meant something to you.

Political Animals ought to be careful linking to any commenters' hypertext or commenting on other Political Animals' blogs with the same identity, posted by name, geographical or otherwise, because it could be used to capture personal information for later exposure by people without the kind of integrity Mr. Drum and the Washington Journal have demonstrated.

Using caution online is always a good plan. But people probably don't need to worry too much if they're not squatting on someone's blog for hours every day, bombing it with homophobic hate speech. That's just fucking creepy.

Posted by: shortstop on May 7, 2008 at 3:22 PM | PERMALINK

You SOB, you said the $34.95 I'm paying was a "special deal." And here I thought our romantic weekend of skeet shooting and shopping for bootleg Bobby Fuller Five meant something to you.

Listen, sister--you should have signed up when I was only charging $9.95 for ten views. If you fail to get in on the ground floor of a great investment in a timely manner, you're going to pay more for your lack of diligence. And I'll thank you to leave the skeet shooting out of this. You know I'm still smarting from that accidental discharge.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 3:26 PM | PERMALINK

It's my own fault. I knew better; I knew a man like this can never be tamed, not really. And yet the few moments of otherworldly bliss--well, je ne regrette rien.

Posted by: shortstop on May 7, 2008 at 3:31 PM | PERMALINK

MY DARLING BROJO, give my good nefhew NORMAN RODGERS youR email addess to read his wonderful blogg, please, as we were searching for contacts of a citizen who can help us save our family's fortune since our country has entered turmoil.

First, I must solicit your strictest confidence in this transaction. This is by virtue of its nature as being utterly CONFIDENTIAL and TOP SECRET. I am sure and have confidence of your ability and reliability to prosecute a transaction of great magnitude involving a pending transaction requiring MAXIIMUM CONFIDENCE.

We are a family of NIGERIAN BUSINESS OWNERS who are interested in importation of goods into our country with funds which are presently trapped in NIGERIA. In order to commence this business we solicit your assistance to enable us transfer into your account the said TRAPPED FUNDS.

We are looking forward to doing this business with you and solicit your CONFIDENTIALITY in this transaction. Please respond to NORMAN ROGERS with your email information. I will send you detailed information of this pending projects when we have heard from YOU.

God Bless,

MFWUME KINTASA

Posted by: Norman's uncle, MFWUME KINTASA, of Nigeria on May 7, 2008 at 3:40 PM | PERMALINK

Well a little bit of humor after an upsetting evening for some of us is much appreciated.

Thank you Norman's unclued.

Posted by: optical weenie on May 7, 2008 at 3:45 PM | PERMALINK

On sober reflection, I want to apologize to Grand Moff Texan. I take exception to being told to die, but my reaction was entirely over the top.
And if apologizing makes me a wimp, so be it.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 4:21 PM | PERMALINK

You were a wimp before.

Posted by: absent observer on May 7, 2008 at 4:57 PM | PERMALINK

I don't think Obama would qualify

Obama is not qualified to receive my vote under normal circumstances. I only support Democrats because of W. Bush's invasion of Iraq. I would prefer to vote for a third party socialist candidate, not for a lesser evil.

homophobic hate speech

?

Posted by: Brojo on May 7, 2008 at 5:09 PM | PERMALINK

Are you suggesting that people don't have a right to "?" their sexuality?

That's what I'm reading into the "?" comment. If so, very homophobic.

If you intend "?" to mean "carbon sequestion," then the comment is almost homophonic.

Posted by: absent observer on May 7, 2008 at 5:13 PM | PERMALINK

Just let me know, and hurry. My Internets are funky these days.

That's not the only thing funky about you. Change your drawers fatass!

Posted by: elmo on May 7, 2008 at 5:16 PM | PERMALINK

Horse references aren't intended to be homophobic, they're something else entirely.
But still in poor taste.
ao -- if I was a wimp before, am I still one?

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 5:17 PM | PERMALINK

I was just giving you a hard time. -shoulda put a ;) at the end.

Posted by: absent observer on May 7, 2008 at 5:22 PM | PERMALINK

ao -- what, me touchy? ;)

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 5:25 PM | PERMALINK

That's so homophobic.

Posted by: absent observer on May 7, 2008 at 5:30 PM | PERMALINK

Do you have what they call "google mail?"

I have an email account at Alta Vista.

Posted by: Brojo on May 7, 2008 at 5:37 PM | PERMALINK

Brojo: homophobic hate speech

?

Anti-gay slurs thersites splashed all over Norman's blog.

Posted by: on May 7, 2008 at 5:42 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, I didn't. But I'm tired of this fight. Goodnight, folks.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM | PERMALINK

Then someone using your computer did, just like someone used Roger Stone's phone to threaten Elliot Spitzer's dad in Roger's voice. Don't you hate when that happens?

Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

Posted by: on May 7, 2008 at 5:55 PM | PERMALINK

I'm serious, whoever you are. I don't do stuff like that. Can you tell me when it happened?

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 5:57 PM | PERMALINK

He'll be hit by a meteor all right if he gets the nomination. With so many Democrats in Florida switching to Independent, that meteor is coming fast.

Posted by: Maggie05 on May 7, 2008 at 6:46 PM | PERMALINK

Are FL voters switching D to Ind so that they can vote for the Independent Party's nominee?

Posted by: absent observer on May 7, 2008 at 6:52 PM | PERMALINK

Hate speech is a terrible thing.
It's also bad to be accused of indulging in hate speech, especially in the liberal blogosphere.
I'm opinionated, cranky, sometimes rude, profane, and once in a while I go too far. But I have never deliberately uttered hate speech, on any blog or in the real world. I know firsthand how hurtful it can be. I just don't do that.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 6:56 PM | PERMALINK

Seems appropriate at this point to ask how Hillary withdraws in a way that best promotes unity and minimizes alienating her supporters. It will also be important for Obama and his supporters to act accordingly.

Posted by: has407 on May 7, 2008 at 7:20 PM | PERMALINK

I doubt very seriously if Sen. Clinton will withdraw/concede before the convention. That would be an irrevocably final step. While the odds are very small for her nomination at this point, a withdrawal/concession can't be taken back and she must know it. My personal guess is that, as of now, she plans to go to the convention and scope out any possible defections from Sen. Obama's camp. Then, barring any such defections from his supporters, announce the withdrawal of her candidacy. I really can't see how she could move enough of his supporters to switch their support to her after the first, pledged ballot and without that she won't be able to attract enough superdelegates to get her the nomination.
I can't see her stomping out of the convention with dire threats of an independent run because that would destroy any influence she has in the Democratic party while not replacing it with any influence elsewhere. Nor would she be able to sit on the sidelines during the general election campaign (unless asked); should Sen. Obama lose (not likely, but anything is possible), it is inconceivable that she doesn't know she would be blamed, whether fairly or not doesn't matter.
I would like to add that, while I do not doubt that Sen. Obama is fully qualified to be president, my support for Sen. Clinton has always been based on my belief that she is the more qualified candidate. I think that is probably the attitude of most of her supporters and, like most of her supporters, I know that I will have no worries about voting for Sen. Obama as our nominee. Perhaps a few regrets...

Posted by: Doug on May 7, 2008 at 7:33 PM | PERMALINK

Hold on, thersites. If I owe you an apology, you'll get it.

Posted by: on May 7, 2008 at 8:32 PM | PERMALINK

Okay, there has been some confusion and it may not be straightened out until tomorrow, so let me go ahead and retract my statement that among the odd comments thersites posted on Norman's blog were homophobic insults. I cannot confirm that at the moment. If thersites says he didn't say those things, I'll accept that he didn't. The owner of Norman's blog may want to state otherwise but that's up to that person.

Please accept my apology, thersites. It was wrong of me to not have double checked that before posting.

Posted by: on May 7, 2008 at 9:03 PM | PERMALINK

Well, let you uncle Norman settle things.

Did I make it all up? Of course not. Did I have proof that was sent to me by a reliable third party? Of course I did. Did I do the legwork and establish proof beforehand? Of course I did.

But that's okay--the blog is now deleted.

See for yourself:

http://normanrogers.blogspot.com/

Thanks for being the most useless bunch of fucking babies that ever lived. Thanks for ruining it.

Now, go lie about something else.

Fuck this noise, it's over.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on May 7, 2008 at 9:25 PM | PERMALINK

thersites, regulars at Political Animal know you did not engage in any hate speech.

You can reach me here, Norm.

Posted by: Brojo on May 7, 2008 at 10:02 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks, Brojo, and unknown commenter at 9:03.

I take responsibility and, again, apologize, for flying off the handle at Grand Moff Texan.

Norman, if you're serious, I don't know what happened. I enjoyed your blog. I commented there twice, and neither of them was hateful. If you start another blog I will stay away.

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 10:50 PM | PERMALINK

Now can we get on with electing a Democrat?

Posted by: thersites on May 7, 2008 at 10:53 PM | PERMALINK

Don't thank me. Independent confirmation received, apology rescinded. You're a nasty, lying little piece of work, thersites.

Posted by: on May 7, 2008 at 11:02 PM | PERMALINK

What is this "Independent confirmation" you received?

"...proof sent by a reliable third party..." ??

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Otherwise, you're just someone who stirs up dissension.

Posted by: absent observer on May 7, 2008 at 11:49 PM | PERMALINK

Commenters used to have to provide a name at Political Animal. There was a work around using > to make Name: anonymous, but that ended after the Charlie guy went insane. I wonder if the name requirement has been disabled to protect commenters' identities.

[No, it is a system glitch and it makes the moderators crazy.]

Posted by: Brojo on May 8, 2008 at 12:05 AM | PERMALINK

Blog comment communication is fascinating.

Posted by: Brojo on May 8, 2008 at 1:37 AM | PERMALINK

The problem is that Obama's dirty secret, known to many is still out there. When the republicans finally get down to wailing on him, it will be a good thing for the party and Hillary to be in the wings to pick up the pieces.

In the mean time Hillary's continued presence prevents the republicans from unloading it. If she drops out and they neuter him, there is no obvious successor, which makes McCain the last man standing. If she stays in she continues to act as a deterent. Which means the Right Wing Machine is forced to lay into both of them. Which means Obama has to stop his proxies from hitting Hillary anymore, other wise they make it look like they are working with the Right Wing Machine directly.

Now that Rush Limbaugh has come out for Obama, Obama has to tack left to maintain credibility. It's actually in everybody's best interest on the Dem side, as Pelosi has stated today, that this thing go on as long as possible if for no other reason than to keep Barak protected. It's too bad his proxies haven't figured this out yet. But then they are not used to thinking as much as amplifying the message of the day. Why does Rush like Obama better than Hillary in the general? Because he knows Obama's secret, and he knows the right wing media will be able to bury him once he is alone on stage. Just shaking the tree got him to throw Wright overboard, and created a week of misteps, forcing the extra deals that led to NC and IN results.

Hillary on the other hand has no more secrets. And other than an advising staff that seems to be working against her, she will easily beat McCain in a head to head. Rush is going to bank on feeding the arrogance of the Obama machine in hopes of egging them into forcing an early end to the contest, so that they can tear Obama down all summer long much as they did Kerry, eventually leading up to the revelation of the Obama secret sometime after August and before the debates so that the rightwing machine will control the entire fall media agenda, and Obama is continually on the defensive, where he has to address his accussers directly, something he has avoided doing, while demonstrating a George Bush Jr style lack of grace in the moments he can't run away or hide behind proxies.

And we haven't even gotten to the circus they have planned around Michelle. It's going to be a very ugly summer.

Salon has the most optimistic take in the what does Hillary want article, but that requires a whole lot of humility that the Obama side seems unable to manifest. They haven't begun to understand just how much a loss is going to cost them collectively this November. While Obama has raised big money, Bush Jr has raised big money for the house, and the wealthiest of the wealthy are more than willing to match Obama's small donors to have another four years of Jr ala McCain.

An Obama loss at this point is about as unthinkable as the Kerry loss was at this time in 2004, when Abu Ghraib was absolutely destroying Team Bush. And yet one summer later, the billionaire Kerry was down and not coming back.

Team Obama's arrogance is unwarranted given their complete unpreparedness for the fall fight. Do they imagine all the help they got under the table to slag Hillary will be available against McCain. Very unlikely.

Posted by: patience on May 8, 2008 at 3:09 AM | PERMALINK




 

 

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