"Of course NATO is no longer an anti-Soviet alliance, and the fact that Russia views NATO’s eastward expansion as a threat to its security is a vivid sign of the deep-rooted cold war mentality of Mr. Putin and his circle."

The above quote from a NYT article strikes at the heart of things.

I'm not sure the members of NATO even care about NATO any longer, but Russia re-inflates this blow up doll bogeyman as a justification for re-asserting their Soviet sphere of influence whenever its convenient.

If NATO was truly a security concern for Russia they would join it and make it even more irrelevant than it already is.

This is a just a power pissing contest that is getting people killed, while resolving nothing in the long-term.

Condor,

Suppose Russia started to get together with let's say canada, mexico and cuba and decided to form a nato like pact with weapons purchases and all. Even building an anti missile shield all the time reassuring the US that they have nothing to worry about. How might the US react to that?

There is a really good diary about the situation over at Daily Kos today by Jerome a Paris. Here's the title, the URL and the intro.

"Georgia: oil, neocons, cold war and our credibility"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/9/82642/19523/204/565266

"This is another diary critical of the West's position on Georgia.

Just as a bit of background, let me state here for the record that I wrote my PhD on the independence of Ukraine, and have thus studied how Russia behaves with its neighbors rather intensively. Following that, I worked for several years financing oil&gas projects in Russia and the Caspian; in particular, I worked on the financing of the BTC pipeline that goes from Azerbaijan to Turkey via Georgia (I wrote about it on DailyKos 3 years ago). Oil companies don't need the money: what they want is for other parties like banks to share the political risks associated with their projects. Which means that in turn, the job of a banker working on these projects is to understand those political risks. And it is quite obvious that the relationship between Russia and the Caucasus countries, including Georgia, was at the heart of my work.

But if you think I am just a "lefty European apologist of Soviet atrocities", feel free to move on and ignore this diary."

"This is a just a power pissing contest that is getting people killed, while resolving nothing in the long-term."

Give war a chance.

If Serbia had a thousand nuclear weapons, its expansionary military policy likely would have succeeded at adjusting its borders in the Balkans, since NATO wouldn't have been able to push back.

If Iraq had a thousand nuclear weapons in 1991, its expansionary military policy likely would have succeeded at adjusting its borders in the Gulf, since no one would have been able to push back.

If America decided to invade Quebec to protect the English speaking minority, and to annex portions of the province in a decade or two, it likely would succeed, since no one would be able to push back.

Russia's strategy of being a military bully in the Caucasus is likely to work.

What Russia is doing is wrong, but that doesn't mean it won't "solve" anything.

Petey--
What do you mean "what Russia is doing is wrong"?? Last time I checked, the status quo was broken by Georgia, who was the one who moved first against Ossetia. This was a blatant provocation.

No nation in Russia's position would accept what Georgia just did. Saakashvili is a fucking idiot, who is likely to destroy his country. Georgians are the ultimate small nation imperialists, hoping to get NATO and the US on their side in a war they'll never win alone. Unfortunately for Saakashvili, not even the editors of the Economist are dumb enough to risk a war with Russia over this shit. (although McCain might be, judging by his recent comments)

The "Rose Revolution" not smelling so nice now, is it? What will it take for the US and European press finally take the halos off all these small-nation imperialists and understand that being "democratic" and "anti-Russian" should not give one a pass to do whatever one wants? Estonia can apparently get away with disenfranchising its entire Russian population, but will Georgia get away with its latest provocation?

The article is good, but it neglects some relevant facts. Here they are: South Ossetia has 75,000 people and no economy to speak of. They are dirt poor even by Caucus standards. Their exports are people, sheep, and trees. And they have little strategic value. There really is little but pride to fight over in this region. Sadly, pride seems to flow in abundance.

Traub is wrong. The war is mildly surprising, certainly not inevitable.

After watching the Olympic ceremonies last night, I propose that we just turn China loose on the Russians. The Chinese kick ass, and man are they organized. I wouldn't want to tangle with all 1.3 billion of them.

Suppose Russia started to get together with let's say canada, mexico and cuba and decided to form a nato like pact with weapons purchases and all. Even building an anti missile shield all the time reassuring the US that they have nothing to worry about. How might the US react to that?

Join it, neuter it and say "thanks for the missile shield?"

Again the NATO red herring (ha!) argument for Russia in this case is simply maintained as a straw antagonist and convenient justification for throwing their weight around regionally. If they were truly concerned about NATO they would have embraced it long ago and would be driving things from within.

Kevin,

That was an excellent backgrounder, and I especially appreciated how it referred to the UAV downing in the spring, something I never understood until now.

Thanks for linking to it.

Yesterday, the AFP had an article about this. As noted at FARK: "Russian troops outside of Savannah, AFP confirms. No really, check the map. Lower left of the article". It took the AFP (or Google?) hours to notice and fix this.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hpNRP9ysixHH3P9izLJRjYT1ATkA
http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=3791450

For this on-scene report, better than American MSM papers, I recommend the blog A Fistful of Euros, which has this post on South Ossetia.

Best center-left group blog on Europe there is, IMO.

As for the issues, it appears, per AFOE, that Georgians started it, whether at official high government levels or not. For whatever stupid reasons, a few of them discussed in the AFOE linked post.

Condor's right, Petey's wrong.

"Estonia can apparently get away with disenfranchising its entire Russian population, but will Georgia get away with its latest provocation?"

You sound like a proud supporter of Putin's statement yesterday that he has a responsibility to protect Russians militarily, "no matter where they live".

-----

As long they weren't committing crimes against humanity in South Ossetia, which no reputable source has argued, Georgia had a perfect right to move their military around inside their borders.

Russia, on the other hand, doesn't have the right to send its troops into bordering countries because they have Russian enclaves that would prefer to be ruled from Moscow.

See the Sudetenland for the general principle involved.

"See the Sudetenland for the general principle involved."

Hmm. How about some other examples? The Bay of Pigs? Grenada?

Let's look at Panama:

Bush listed four reasons for the invasion:
(1) Safeguarding the lives of U.S. citizens in Panama. In his statement, Bush claimed that Noriega had declared that a state of war existed between the United States and Panama and that he also threatened the lives of the approximately 35,000 US citizens living there. There had been numerous clashes between U.S. and Panamanian forces; one US Marine had been killed a few days earlier and several incidents of harassment of US citizens had taken place.

What goes around comes around...

It is worth remembering that our brain-dead president, after meeting Vladimir Putin for the first time in 2001, remarked that he had “looked into Pooty-Poot’s soul and saw an ‘honest leader’�. Click here for the transcript of their news conference.

Bush and Pooty-Poot also discussed some of the former Soviet Republics, including Georgia.

From the transcript - "Respectful relations require honesty. And we did discuss areas where my country has differences with Russia -- over Chechnya, and over media relations. I also expressed my hope that Russia will develop constructive relations with its neighbors, like Georgia, that are trying to find their own way in a challenging, but hopeful world.
This was a very good meeting." --Bush

Those “constructive relations� have really worked out well, haven’t they?

"For this on-scene report, better than American MSM papers, I recommend the blog A Fistful of Euros, which has this post on South Ossetia."

I'd recommend the other posts from same blog about the situation as well. One thing is pretty clear: this is just senseless. Perhaps the leaders of both sides should lay off the vodka for a week or two. Maybe they'll realize that there really isn't anything worth fighting over.

"Hmm. How about some other examples? The Bay of Pigs? Grenada? Let's look at Panama:"

Not really analogous situations. The last time the US used an American enclave on foreign soil to militarily redraw borders was back in the times of James Polk.

Military expansionism based on ethnic enclave irredentist claims is an especially pernicious type of foreign affairs conduct, whether its being practiced by Hitler, Milosevic, or Putin.

Note that Putin today said that Georgia's borders are "invalid". Think about that one for a bit.

gizmo: I propose that we just turn China loose on the Russians. The Chinese kick ass, and man are they organized. I wouldn't want to tangle with all 1.3 billion of them.

I dunno. They're the goto folks for T-shirts, computers and dams, but militarily? Check out the Sino-Vietnamese_War.

Of course that was 29 years ago. Interesting contest - used to tie up 100 Soviet divisions. Gee, this war stuff would be fun if it wasn't for all those people getting killed.

Please stop genocide of Ocetian nation!

Starting 1989 nationalistic fascist Georgian government tries to annihilate and expel Ocetian nation from its territory. As the result of Georgian warfare against small nations, tens thousands of Ocetian, Abhasian, Armenian and Russian people died since 1991. The scale of genocide is concealed by Georgian mass media. Brutality of Georgian fascists and freaksville torture of the local population overrode the torture of fascists during the Second World War.

Georgian mass media stir up the sickness of Georgian nation � they believe they are only people deserving life on Georgian territory, they are exclusive, elitist; other nations should move out or be killed.

At the moment the tragedy is happening � Georgians systematically shooting dead the Ocetian people in their own houses or burying under the falling homes.

Georgian fascists destroyed Ocetian settlements and town Tskhinvally � they lay even with the ground.
The number of victims buried by Georgian fire under the ruins cannot be calculated � it is amounted to thousands.
Georgians destroyed all hospitals. Medics cannot work under the fire of Georgians. People saved in underground stores do not have food, water, electricity, gas for 3 days � they cannot go out because of Georgian fire and cannot move out of town because Georgians are trying to take hold with tanks and armored vehicles of the only road from the town to tunnel controlled by Russians.

At that Georgian president insincerely is saying that he tries to make constitutional order and peace, and suggesting lefthandedly to cease fire. All his actions are aimed towards USA and NATO (he even speaks with his nation in English so that you understand him).

USA has strategic interest in region � pipeline going through Georgia. So official government of USA will never realize that Georgian president is criminal politician betrayed its nation (in fact people in Georgia do not want war), instead government of USA will support him (several hours ago a train with NATO armored machines came to Georgia).

The next victim of Georgian fascists will be Abhasian nation.

People in USA and Europe please force your politicians to stop Georgians.

"Check out the Sino-Vietnamese_War."

Well, in defense of the Chinese, nobody ever won a war against Vietnam. The Vietnamese don't give up until they've won. And the Vietnamese hate the Chinese far more than they hate anyone else. The Chinese should have known that. They had lost to the Vietnamese before. And, no doubt, they'll lose to the Vietnamese again someday.

fostert: nobody ever won a war against Vietnam

Aw, come on, the Chinese ran the place for a thousand years, and the French for almost a hundred. Ok, the Viets have been on a winning streak for the last 60-70 years. In the scope of their history, that's nothing.

While we're at it, why don't we invade Canada? They've got lots of oil, the logistics are simple, and it out to be easier to find translators than it is for Iraq.

While we're at it, why don't we invade Canada? They've got lots of oil, the logistics are simple, and it out to be easier to find translators than it is for Iraq.

"Oil" you say? Son, I like the cut of your jib.

"Aw, come on, the Chinese ran the place for a thousand years, and the French for almost a hundred."

Very true, but the Vietnamese fought constant insurrections against those occupiers. They didn't give up. After 900 years of Chinese occupation, the Vietnamese still fought on for another 60 years. And they won. The only thing anyone has ever won from invading Vietnam is the constant nightmare of insurrection. And that nightmare has only ended when the invaders left Vietnam. There has never been a peaceful occupation of Vietnam. Ever. And the Chinese know it. It was their 'Vietnam,' as they say. But it wasn't figurative, it really was Vietnam.

You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

Alex, we did try invading Canada, in 1812. Didn't work out too well did it?

AFAIKT, some sort of accommodation btw Georgia, Russia, and the insurgents in Abkazia and S Ossetia, was reacher in 1991. It looks like Georgia choose to violate it Friday. I strongly suspect we (US) have been egging them on, as part of our attempt to surround Russia with Nato led forces. Looks like we went a bit too far. Now it looks like blowback time.

Now, I'm sure there is blame to go around on all sides. But its too late for blame games. We need to find some new sort of accommodation, which can be reached with minimal casualties. We will also have to reevaluate our provocative policy of trying to hem in Russia. I suspect that forcing some change here is the real motivation on the Russian side.

Petey,
I didn't say that what Estonia did to its Russian-speaking citizens would justify a Russian invasion. I just said that Western journalists need to stop acting like nations like Estonia and Georgia are squeaky-clean just because they tow the Western economic line.

Do you actually favor Tallinn's policy vis-a-vis its internal Russian population? Do you think a person born in a nation and who lived there their entire life should suddenly be disenfranchised because they come from a certain ethnic background? Do you think that a nation that disenfranchises 35% of its population is a "democracy" by any normal meaning of the word?

Uh, Petey, there's also a more recent example of US support for irredentism. Kosovo.

I'm wary of the Alex Jones crowd, but here's an interesting link that will at least get you thinking:
http://www.infowars.com/?p=3848

W. Bush's invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq have given Russia the political cover and example for their invasions of Chechnya and Georgian S. Ossetia. Georgia would be well advised to stop their militancy towards the Ossetians, because it draws the Russians into hostilities Georgia cannot win.

As the conflict over the breakaway region of South Ossetia threatens to explode into all-out war between Georgia and Russia, Republican presidential nominee John McCain weighed in. "What's most critical now," McCain said, "is to avoid further confrontation between Russian and Georgian military forces." But given his confused and contradictory statements about expelling Russia from the G8, what may be most critical to American voters is whether John McCain understands what he's talking about.

For the details, see:
"Fighting in Georgia Highlights McCain's Confusion Over Russia."

"Uh, Petey, there's also a more recent example of US support for irredentism. Kosovo."

I'm not sure if you're entirely clear on the meaning of irredentism.

I was on the side of the Kosovars in that conflict, just as I'm on the side of the Georgians in this one.

I tend to think fascists are, y'know, bad.

"The next victim of Georgian fascists will be Abhasian nation.

People in USA and Europe please force your politicians to stop Georgians."
___________________

You can expect more of this. The Russians are almost as good at web-based propaganda as are the Chinese. Certainly better than the Serbs.

If only we were not a militaristic nation ourselves, than perhaps we could have sent in a peace negotiator, but of course Bush is just a bomb now, don't care what anybody thinks kind of butcher himself.

Russian interest in Georgia goes back quite a ways. The Georgians don't stand much of a chance if the Russians want their country.

The same thing happened in 1921, except then the Russians came under the pretext of aiding a "peasants and workers rebellion." The invasion was complete in a few weeks. However, even with no outside help to the Georgians, it still took until 1924 to finalize the conquest.

The initial division-sized Russian force probably isn't enough to conquer Georgia entirely. If their intent is to take the entire country, we'll soon see a second echelon entering on the heels of the first, provided the first effort isn't blunted. I wonder how many TOW missiles the Georgians have.

Personally, I blame it all on Woodrow Wilson.

Picking a side in this conflict is an entertaining but ultimately useless exercise. The US has zip, zero, nil, zilch in terms of leverage. The best we can do is call for a ceasefire and pursue our unsexy diplomatic options to the fullest possible extent (which isn't much).

After eight years of Bush, the US has about as much authority in the international community as, say, Uruguay.

Sure we have ten thousand nuclear warheads, but so what? In this day and age, nuclear weapons are the offensive equivalent of the Maginot Line.

The real problem is artificial borders. The Caucasus range should not be the border between Russia and Georgia. It was only inherited from the Georgian SSR and earlier from tsarist times. I vote for self-determination for Ossetia, Abkhazia Kososvo, Chechnya, Kurdistan and other areas that have been dominated by larger neighbors.

Borders should be fluid, not that that will ever happen outside of special circumstances like Slovakia. Georgia should say to the Russians "You want South Ossetia and Abkhazia? Go ahead and take them." They are more trouble than they are worth - except for Georgian pride. S. Ossetia is full of bandits and thugs, why should the Georgians want them? The Abkhazians hate the Georgians, why should the Georgians want them? The only problem would be resettlement of the minority Gerogians living in those disputed regions, and that could be solved with more rational borders. Those Georgians who would have to move south would lose out, but they can be compensated and end up safer in the settlement.

Nationalist pride sucks, but we have to live with it and it can best taken care of by redrawing maps. And then they can be redrawn in twenty years after the Russian oil & gas boom is over and the Abkhazians & Ossetians won't like what the Russians are doing and start to make trouble for the Russians. But the Russians will still have too much pride to give troublemakers what they want, just ask the Chechnyans.

trashhauler: The Russians had better watch out, the last time Russia conquered Georgia, the Georgians got revenge in spades. Uncle Joe Stalin was a Georgian, and he managed to kill quite a few Russians.

"Personally, I blame it all on Woodrow Wilson."

Quite a lot of things can be blamed on Woodrow Wilson. My favorite: after a speech about the right of countries to determine their own destiny, a young Vietnamese man asked Wilson if that right applied to colonial holdings like Vietnam. Wilson's answer: No. The questioner: Ho Chi Minh. And the rest is history.

Well, since Bush has claimed the right to attack anyone, anywhere, anytime he decrees it is necessary 'to protect americans' we don't have much of an ethical leg to stand on anymore.
(if we ever did).

The world again descends into barbarism.

Wow. Sure seems like a lot of people can't say "Russia is Bad" without following it up with "The USA is worse"....

For what it's worth:

Seems like Georgia and Russia have been saber rattling a lot leading up to this.

Seems like Georgia though it could settle things quickly. They miscalculated. Russia will use this opportunity to annex Russian majority regions in Georgia.

They will not take over all of Georgia. That is too likely to provoke a western response (helps that the US has a base in Georgia).

It doesn't even really suck for the Georgians -- the majority won't be materially affected by this war. It will be over quickly and they will have lost.

Sucks for the Georgian administration. They will probably lose the next election.

In the long run this will probably strengthen cooperation between the US and former SSRs. Russia probably isn't furthering its own long run interests with this invasion.

Fostert, WE should have known that about the Vietnamese hatred for the Chinese. It's only 2,000 years old or so. Would have saved us more than a decade of stupidity and tragedy.

CD, Bush said the same thing, in essence, about Hu Jintao a week ago.

Lampwick, agreed. A little Realpolitik needed here.

"They will not take over all of Georgia. That is too likely to provoke a western response (helps that the US has a base in Georgia)."
_____________________

There isn't likely to be much of a Western response. And what base do we have in Georgia? There are, at most, 100 American military personnel in Georgia, serving as trainers.

The U.S. is hardly squeaky clean here and has been aggressively encircling Russia for the past 15 years. Condor's eminently silly entreaties to Russia just give up and cede everything to you Yanks cause you're the goodiest goodest and no threat to anyone is one of the worst sales pitches I've ever heard. Even I a Canadian, am extremely (!) wary of U.S. power. All power is corrupting and the U.S. is now following this well-trod path of hubris, of the imagined possiblities of the use of one's power. If America were a diplomatically wiser country, Georgia would have known unequivacally that there would be no support for their provocations in South Ossetia and Abkazia. But current U.S. policy seems to be to push, push, push until there is real backlash. And of course the Georgians are hardly the plucky little heroes of Petey's B/W world - they've been playing their own quite dirty little games in their regions that want independence; the Russians have naturally been playing this to their advantage. And I say all this as anything but a fan of the current Russian regime.

And contrary to Adam's beliefs, the Russians are probably working in their long-term interests. Little nation nationalists on Russia's borders understand better the limits on their movement (Note: I'm not arguing that this is a good thing; merely good from the Russian POV). This in much the same way as U.S. actions against democratic reformers in Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, the Dominican Republic and elsewhere in the Western hemisphere have let all of us know the limits of what is popularly permissible in our countries and what locally popular policies are to be trumped by U.S. interests. We all operate with self-restraint and a knowledge that there are limits (This too not a good thing, strongly anti-democratic; merely good from the U.S. POV; and we have to wary of both Repubicans and Democrats here).

In short, the U.S. government has been goading the Georgians on with little thought for consequences, the Russian governemt has been looking for an excuse to push back against a U.S. policy of aggressive encirclement and the Georgian government have been behaving as petty nationalists. Each and everyside will loudly screech their victimhood and the nastiness of the other side. Meanwhile, a bunch of common folk will end up dead.

The Russians just grab everything they can, from business partners' ownership to other countries' territory. They are an enemy of Western values.

@snicker-snack

If a string of US bases around Russia is a bad thing, like you said.

And if the Georgians now allow the US to build more bases in Georgia.

Or if other former SSRs - seeing this event - allow the US to stage troops in their territory.

How is this good for the Russians in the long run?

Explain.

What this guy said:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/needtoknow/2008/08/georgias_miscalculation.html

Sunday morning Georgian mythology trivia:

In ancient Greek mythology, the murderous princess and witch Medea came from the kingdom of Colchis, whose borders corresponded roughly to those of modern Georgia. Colchis was the home of the Golden Fleece.

Scholars believe that the myth of the Golden Fleece developed through Greek traders' observations of local gold mining practice. The gold miners in ancient Colchis would run river water rich in gold ore over sheep fleeces, which would collect the gold particles; then they would burn the fleeces, and extract the gold from the ash.

The titan Prometheus was chained to a mountain in the Caucuses as punishment for bringing fire to men. The Caucuses are those mountains that all those Russian tanks are driving through.

Your President, wiping sand off the posterior of a US Women's Beach Volleyball player.

http://mattjduffy.blogspot.com/2008/08/write-your-own-caption.html

Petey,

Ever heard of 'greater Albania'? The KLA? What exactly don't I understand about irredentism? You can be in favor of the Kosovars and still recognize what it was. It was irredentism, pure and simple. Just like Ossetia.

Or are you one of those who believe that the Kremlin made up the whole concept of an 'Ossetian' to suit their needs? I've actually met Ossetians, I can assure you they exist. And I can assure you that at this point they will never willingly live under Georgian rule. For good reasons, too, reasons quite similar to reasons the Kosovars refused to live under Serbian rule.

Yeah, you don't like fascists. Nice words, as usual in talking about Russia, likely to be complete bullshit. Maybe you were also one of those great freedom-lovers who supported terrorists like Basayev, because he was fighting the big bad bear. Sad that this kind of bullshit talk will only strengthen the hard-liners in the Kremlin. When the West repeatedly cuddles up to groups that kill your fellow citizens, few people are too keen to tow the western line.

Ya' know. . . sometimes some things are just none of our business.

If we just adhered to the Inkblot and Domino way of life, we'd all be much happier.

Adam,
Again, what is the 'thing' that is supposedly bad for Russia? The fact that Georgia violated the Ossetian peacekeeping agreement? Don't you think this kind of unstable behavior actually makes it less likely that Tblisi will garner increased US support? I mean, even people like Cheney have their limits of reasonable behavior. Any move to install additional bases in Georgia at this point would be seen as blatantly taking Georgia's side in all its conflicts with Russia. Do you think anyone in Washington actually cares enough about Georgia's claim to South Ossetia to take such a gamble? Saakashvili's crazy actions actually just reminded everyone in Washington what a bad idea it would be to get involved in this mess.

(The current tiny American presence in Georgia is explicitly limited to hunting terrorists in the Pankisi gorge, etc. What you seem to be suggesting is a much more robust presence...)

lampwick: ... gold miners in ancient Colchis ... gold ore ... gold ... gold.

Of course, we Greeks weren't fighting at Troy for control over the route to the gold of Colchis. It was about defending our honor, and maintaining our credibility.

And the reason we invaded Iraq was to punish Odey Hussein for kidnapping Jeb Bush's stunningly beautiful wife.

Steve,

Just think how much harder poor Kevin would have to work to support all of us.

@snicker-snack

If a string of US bases around Russia is a bad thing, like you said. And if the Georgians now allow the US to build more bases in Georgia. Or if other former SSRs - seeing this event - allow the US to stage troops in their territory. How is this good for the Russians in the long run?

Well, I'd just counter that that's a lot of suppositions. How many Soviet bases were built in Latin American countries wanting some counterweight to U.S. power in response to U.S. slap downs in Guatemala/Nicaragua/Panama? A similar number of U.S. bases is likely to be inspired by Russian actions in Georgia. Most leaders of small nations (unlike the strutting little cock in Georgia; what were G.W.'s words to him on his visit?) know what is a step too far. kokblok shows a good understanding of big power/little power relations, relations that are at heart extremely anti-democratic. (For the record, I'm a huge fan of New Zealand and Denmark size countries; think it would be a great plus for the world were the U.S. and China both to break up into several constituent parts)

(P.S. Sorry for my long response time - I'm haven't been able to post from my main computer for the past five or six months for some reason)

snicker-snack: think it would be a great plus for the world were the U.S. and China both to break up into several constituent parts

Free Québec now!

Free Québec now!

May well happen and though saddened would not be opposed - provided the South Ossetia-like Cree areas to the north get their own say :)

Though if I put aspirations for Canada and what it represents aside I gotta admit that Québec on its own would be a nifty little country.

And if we ever have enough weight to start throwing around, carve away!

snicker-snack: provided the South Ossetia-like Cree areas to the north get their own say

Here come the conditions. Of course you Anglophones want to keep that area only out of concern for the indigenous peoples. Keeping an area that's historically part of Quebec is justified because British Imperialism against the First Nations is so much better than French Imperialism.

And it's just a coincidence that that area just happens to have all that valuable hydro power. I'm sure there won't be any contention over that.

Of course a logical solution would be to form the independent Cree Republic. Naturally a country like that would need the defense of a big brother, like say Anglo-Canada, against the historical imperialism of Quebec.

That does however raise the question of why the Cree get their own country, but you're keeping all that land that you stole from other First Nations.

Nor would Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, PEI, Labrador and Newfoundland mind being cut off from the rest of Canada. And we can ignore the fact that historically they were all part of New France. Any problem with road or rail traffic, or oil and gas pipelines running through Quebec, don't worry - we Yanks will be happen to let it transit through our country. No strings attached, honest.

touché

Interesting dialog between snicher-snack and alex. But what happens when all the French-Canadian folk in northern Maine decide they want to join the new Quebec? What will happen to the Anglophone Mainers up there in Aroostook county?