I prefer administrative horizon.

McCain wants us to drop some administrative bombs.

The neo-cons talked tough the last two weeks. Time for action if they really believe that Georgia's young democracy is being smothered by the Russian Bear. What is Bush doing to teach Russia a lesson? He's having a jolly good time back in his ranch. Sure doesn't sound like the tough talkers are going to act.

"administrative border."

The Bush regime is no doubt fuming because they didn't conjure up that term first.

Oh,Oh! Permanent bases in occupied territory. Just following the American precedent.

As soon as McCain says Russians would be happy to have a presence there for a hundred years, this story will be complete.

ringrid: Russia is setting up 18 checkpoints, not bases. The number 18, however, is curious. That is the number of permanent bases the neocons are building (or already built) in Iraq.

He's having a jolly good time back in his ranch

Does that make Bush a "jolly rancher"?

I'm sure this sounds like a good idea to all the Soviet nostalgists in Moscow, but it is a serious mistake. In spite of everything, there are many Western governments who believe in engagement with Russia, either from conviction or because they dread the thought of confrontation. These governments have now been confronted with the cold truth that Russia's word is not good.

They will not forget. One of the other notable things about the Soviet period is how often the Kremlin gave Western governments quarrelling with one another no choice but to unite against Russia's position. The Russian government is doing it all over again in Georgia.

Zathras, I think the key to understanding Russia's actions is the anti-missile shield. The nuclear deterrent worked for several decades because both sides knew they would both be destroyed in a full scale nuclear war irrespective of who went first. Here comes the anti-missile shield. If the shield works as designed, the balance is shifted in favor of the US. If the US missile shield prevents a Russian attack or a counterattack, Russia is toast.

You may think the anti-missile shield doesn't work, but if you are Russia, you won't take the chance that the shield may not work. They have to assume it works and they see it being deployed very close to its borders.

I think this is a big part of the reason behind Russia's actions. Doing whatever it takes to help prevent the spread of NATO's influence and physical placement of missiles close to its borders.

If Western governments truly believed in engagement with Russia, they would have reduced the scope of NATO soon after the warsaw pact was dissolved. Instead of doing that, they expanded NATO and started placing missiles close to Russia. Why is everyone surprised that Russia is doing something to counter this provocation?

Why did Putin move in August? That is a good question.

Putin would prefer a President Obama to a President McCain. His recent moves benefit McCain though. So Putin is paving the way for a President McCain. If he would have waited until November, Putin would have paved the way for a President Obama.

The move was strategic in that it eliminates the land bridge between the West and it’s energy supplies in advance of the Israel-Iran clash that Putin must see just after the election. Otherwise, Putin would have waited for a President Obama.

Brick, Putin was pushed by Republican shenanigans. They will do anything to win. You gotta admire their nerve. The Dems should have impeached Bush and shut the Republican monster down before it made its next move. Fascinating in its horribleness.

"Russia to cut all military ties with NATO"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/20/norway-russia-to-cut-all_n_120172.html

I wonder what the Russians found in those Georgian military bases, in files, on a hard drive or two.

Have we all been set up? Gamed again? Cui bono?

Putin would prefer a President Obama to a President McCain.

Why do you say this? As you go on to note, Putin's actions have most probably benefitted McCain. Putin has done fine manipulating the current GOP President, perhaps he'd like another one.

A ranking Russian military official today said Moscow plans to establish 18 long-term checkpoints inside Georgian territory, including at least eight within undisputed Georgian territory outside the pro-Russian enclave of South Ossetia.

Right.

In a development which, at this point, should surprise just about no one, it turns out that Russia doesn't plan to withdraw from Georgia at all:

And the ceasefire they signed gave them a nine-mile perimeter around Ossetia. Nine miles from Tsh'chvilli is just outside Gori. (But not inside Gori.) Just like I've been saying for four or five days.

The question is if they withdraw from Poti, Sennaki, Borjomi and the like. If they withdraw from those places, they'll be withdrawing just like they said they would.

The move was strategic in that it eliminates the land bridge between the West and it’s energy supplies in advance of the Israel-Iran clash that Putin must see just after the election. Otherwise, Putin would have waited for a President Obama.

Will they actually be sitting on the pipeline? Did you check? Were they dumb enough to run the pipeline right next to Ossetia?

Putin would prefer a President Obama to a President McCain. His recent moves benefit McCain though. So Putin is paving the way for a President McCain. If he would have waited until November, Putin would have paved the way for a President Obama.

Perhaps Saachavilli preferred a President McCain, or otherwise, why did he launch such a stupid attack?

max
['Keeping the artillery out of range.']

Kevin, enough about Georgia. How about focusing on Obama's declining poll numbers? I'm truly worried now that a new national poll (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/poll_mccain_takes_national_lea.php) has McSame ahead of Obama.

I can't believe Obama went on vacation after this European trip and stayed there while McSame was on the campaign trail all along and his team moved the needle for him. If Obama can't fight back he should let Hillary be the nominee.

Note: I caucused for Obama. I'm not a sore Hillary supporter. I'm disappointed that Obama is letting McSame get ahead using the same old tactics.

Putin would prefer President Obama to President McCain because Obama’s strategy of disengagement would allow Russia to control the world’s oil resources, which is what all of this is about.

There are three checkpoints:
1. The Georgia land-bridge;
2. The Strait of Hormuz; and
3. Two pipelines in Saudi Arabia.

He just took #1, could control #2 if the US left the Middle East, and could deny #3 in about an hour. Obama talks of leaving the Middle East, which is why Putin prefers a President Obama.

A President McCain is not attractive to Putin because:

1. He would keep an American footprint over Middle Eastern oil and protect the Strait of Hormuz; and
2. He might just start WW3, which would suck for everybody.

Which makes Putin’s early move an indication that the Israelis really will act after the election.

I've been too busy to read up on this, but who attacked who first? What would the US do if Mexico attacked?

The "Missile Shield," is a legitimate concern for Russia. Having been repeatedly invaded by Germany, Poland, France, and Sweden, the Russians have always been obsessed by having a wide buffer between them and western Europe. That's what the East Bloc was for the Russians, having much less to do with the "spread of communism."

The Cuban Missile Crisis was a *direct* result of Khrushchev's desire for the Americans to pull their troops out of W. Berlin. (See: "Khrushchev's Cold War." Taubman)

Putin's Russia should be taken seriously. But, the Missile Shield as a very "iffy" endeavor, and the Russians have always had more faith in American technology than it merited.

So, this story doesn't make me feel better:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/21/world/europe/21prexy.html

Considering that the only thing the Bushies know how to do is campaign, I'm afraid Bush's statement in the above story is a "gift" to the RNC for 2008.

Rove, Rove, Rove your boat
paddleless up the creek...

Brick Oven Bill: He just took #1...

Not unless he manages to control much larger parts of Georgia--or other parts of the Caucuses.

The Baku-Supsa Pipeline (~100K bbd) is presently at risk (it runs north of Tbilisi and near Gori); it was shut down about a week ago. The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline (~1M bbd) is not presntly at risk and is operating; it runs South of Tbilisi through Southern Georgia and into Turkey.

While Russia may be opportunistic in Georgia, if control by fomenting unrest was the objective, Armenia/Azerbaijan, especially just North of Nagorno-Karabakh, would have been a better choice.

Is Rumsfeld consulting for the the Kremlin?

Mrojo: Is Rumsfeld consulting for the the Kremlin?

Doubtful. I don't think they're that stupid.

""administrative border."

The Bush regime is no doubt fuming because they didn't conjure up that term first.
"

How about the term "occupied territories"?

Not enough has been made of one indisputable point. This didn't happen on the watch of President Clinton or President Obama, it happened on the watch of President Bush, who, like McSame, has talked tough and done nothing. Not that I criticize them for doing nothing; there wasn't much, given the situation we had boxed ourselves into, that we could do, and anything Bush or McSame might do could only make matters worse. Given polls suggesting that the voters think McSame would be better at handling this sort of thing, Obama should hammer these guys.

Obama talks of leaving the Middle East,

Idiot. Obama doesn't talk about leaving "the Middle East" if by the Middle East you mean Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, our multiple bases in Kuwait, Qatar and the rest of the Gulf States. Obama does talk about pulling American combat troops out of the occupation of Iraq, but that's hardly the same thing. The US will continue to be heavily involved in the Mideast, especially the Persian Gulf, when Obama is president -- it couldn't be otherwise.

Of course, if you disagree please provide some written citation to back up your claim.

Putin would prefer President Obama to President McCain because Obama’s strategy of disengagement would allow Russia to control the world’s oil resources,

I'm curious -- how exactly is Russia planning to control "the world's" oil resources when a large part of those resources are in Nigeria, Brazil, Canada, Venezuela, etc.?

Call me old school, but I prefer "Iron Curtain."

Also, I wonder what Prez McSame will see when he stares into Putin's soul?

Obama’s strategy of disengagement would allow Russia to control the world’s oil resources,

Ahhh, I see. You're loony, why not just say that up front? Might I refer you to the wingnuts panicky about Obama thread entitled, "Doomed" downpage a bit.

And on a side note, if this Russian fight with Georgia looks like a powerplay for control of the world's oil to the wingnut mind, how must the invasion and occupation of Iraq by the US look to the Russians?

Ahhh, I see. You're loony, why not just say that up front?

It would be so much easier, wouldn't it, if they could just march in with a sign saying "I'm insane and in the grip of various delusions" -- but thankfully, it's usually possible to deduce that by their third or fourth sentence.

Also, I wonder what Prez McSame will see when he stares into Putin's soul?

McSame already knows what Bush saw when he looked into Putin's eyes/soul. McSame will go one step further and look into Putin's pants to judge him.

Jesus Christ and we have nothing we can do. There's not a damn thing we can do because our military got blown to little messy bits in Iraq along with any kind of morality we still had left.

Had we not become a nation of torturers who had thrown trillions at Iraq and instead turned Afghanistan into a real god-damn country and raproached with Iran, I would be seriously thinking about forcing the Russia to pull back.

But we can't stop them and they certainly didn't learn to listen to the international community from OUR example.

So, how come in all of this I don't hear anybody talking about the fact that for 15 years or so, South Ossetia has been an essentially independent republic, largely like, oh, say, Kosovo, East Timor or the Kurdish North of Iraq. And what triggered this whole thing was the introduction of GEORGIAN troops into an otherwise de-militarized zone. In other words, GEORGIA went first. Russia responded.

Now why was it okay for us to intervene to push the Serbians out of Kosovo, but it is not okay for the Russinas to do the same in what is essentially the same situation? How would we have responded had Sadaam acted aggressively to retake control in northern Iraq?

This whole thing smacks of hypocrisy.

But, but, we're the only Superpower! How dare anyone stand up to the bullies in Washington.

Putin would prefer President Obama to President McCain because Obama’s strategy of disengagement would allow Russia to control the world’s oil resources, which is what all of this is about.

What, exactly, is the drug cocktail you are currently enjoying? I must know so I can speak to my physician.

No one is talking about abandoning interests in the middle east. Obama is acknowledging that our pccupation of Iraq runs counter to our national interests.

Now why was it okay for us to intervene to push the Serbians out of Kosovo, but it is not okay for the Russinas to do the same in what is essentially the same situation?

Well, one difference is that we're not planning to annex Kosovo to the United States, the way that Russia will surely de facto if not de jure) do to Ossetia.....The analogous situation would actually be if, say, the US sent forces into Montreal in support of Quebecois separatists. Let's not pretend the Russians are motivated by, ah, humanitarian impulses.

Let's not pretend the Russians are motivated by, ah, humanitarian impulses.

Certainly not. But there is a symbiotic alliance that goes back to at least 1801.

i am beginning to think that there is finally someone who understands that the amerikan eagle, one of the few raptors that will eat carrion, has become carrion.

god bless vladdy the spy. the first individual with some cojones who knows the evils of the amerikan empire and has prepared his country to thwart the real evil empire.

knows engorged and dick'em for the gangsters that they are, have been.

though the usa and its lackeys want to describe all those entities that our intell services pried away from the former ussr as democracies - they ain't. in fact, they are probably more tyrannical than they were in the stalinist era.

this, of course, is a sty that will not be reported in the new amerikan nazi media. staffed by individuals with hidden down's syndrome, an intell service pedigree, or just plain sycophantic to the neo-zionism[imperialist jews] running the amerikan media.

oh, and vlad, please shut down those pipelines to europe and israel. it is time for hydrocarbons to assert their will. and correct western imperialism.

squelch zbig and his acolytes: obama and mccain.

vote green.

Stefan: The analogous situation would actually be if, say, the US sent forces into Montreal in support of Quebecois separatists.

Why would we do that? The oil is in Alberta.

All the more reason to make hay over McBane's fishy relationship to Georgia, through his Fo Po advisor and neoconish skank Randy Scheunemann:

Huff Po

Yes, part of what has transpired is a response to the anti-missile agreement. Look at it from the Russian perspective; essentially it is Cuba 1962 in reverse. Decision/response time is the key.

Brick Oven Bill >"...Obama’s strategy of disengagement would allow Russia to control the world’s oil resources, which is what all of this is about...."

Uhhh, no, it isn`t about allowing Russia to "...control the world’s oil resources..." because they have no chance of doing that. There are too many players.

It IS about the control of natural gas that Europe needs to get through the winters. Remember the recent Ukranian example ?

Inform yourself & keep up to date on the details.

"...For the love of money is the root of all evil..." - 1st Timothy 6:10

As was pointed out above, it was Georgia that started this with their invasion. Note also that McCain's advisor was a paid lobbyist for Georgia until earlier this year.

Moreover, guess who was "vacationing" in the Crimea recently; Karl Rove.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/14/1525/74622

(Curiously, Bob Shrum was also there.)

Is this the "October Surprise" some have wondered about? As a campaign stunt did McCain's people try to reignite the Cold War because that would be an issue that McCain would presumably look stronger on? Now John McCain goes on the stump and thumps his chest making tough talk about the Russians.

JohnK, democrat/progressives have to be tough enough to push the meme, that the repubs could and would indeed spin things like this. Don't be pussies, get it out there and draw blood.

"We" let scammers like pantload describe the Georgia affair as something "Russia did" in a vacuum. Call media complaint lines etc. and demand they discuss more the initial moves by Georgia into South Ossetia etc. This is important, as well as McCain's ties to the region. He even sponsored a resolution earlier IIRC recognizing and encouraging Georgia to consider SO part of themselves, etc.

PS: As a general point that impacts this issue like other matters of politics, scientists have made gains understanding "herd" mentality applied to political processes:

http://www.livescience.com/animals/050208_follow_leader.html

".....The analogous situation would actually be if, say, the US sent forces into Montreal in support of Quebecois separatists."

Only if the Quebocois were responding to an attack from Canada.

"This whole thing smacks of hypocrisy."

That's the essence it of it all, isn't it? Among the nearly infinite ways in which the neoconservative vision is so wrong, isn't it headslappingly obvious that the way we went into Iraq and the reasons that were given would ultimately come back to bite us?

In the hands of a shrewd and ruthless character such as Putin, the Bush Doctrine can easily be used to justify any foreign military escapade by rival nations.

In my opinion, though, we don't have a dog in this fight, and if we needed to choose sides on an ideological level (the promotion of self-determination), we should theoretically support the will of the S. Ossentians, which is clearly not to be militarily occupied by Georgia.

When you consider that Georgia directly instigated this conflagration, McCain's "We Are All Georgians" proclamation and his close ties with the reckless Sakashvili should now be seen in an even harsher light, to say the least.

By "seen in an even harsher light" I mean: reported on. Wouldn't that be nice?

The more I follow this, the less I can see any good in the McCain/Bush/Sakashvili line. Another axis of evil.

An interesting piece on the Georgian attack on South Ossetia and what it has provoked -

http://www.counterpunch.org/hallinan08162008.html

From the Debkafile of August 8:

"Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax....

"Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.
These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday...."

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358"

John "Songbird" McCain encourages Georgia to takeover South Ossetia, with promises of American support which then never materialize -- allowing Russia to clear the board.

This in turn allows McCain to stand atop the ramparts pounding his broad chest and making alpha-ape roars to impress the herd.

One hand washes the other. A completed transaction. Both parties benefit.

What else did you need to know?

You should take the time to inform yourself before you post. The 18 checkpoints are all within a security zone agreed to in the ceasefire agreement.

Meanwhile Russia has told the French it will have all troops pulled back into the security zone by Friday. Let's wait till Friday before we pronounce the Russians in violation of a ceasefire agreement which they were never under any compulsion to agree to in the first place.

Liberal internationalists are informed by definition. And for most of the rest, it's graduate school. We don't need to read the book. We don't even need to read all the articles. Just the right few.

On this issue, none of those are written by Abkhazians, South Ossetians, or Russians.

Is this the "October Surprise" some have wondered about? As a campaign stunt did McCain's people try to reignite the Cold War because that would be an issue that McCain would presumably look stronger on? Now John McCain goes on the stump and thumps his chest making tough talk about the Russians.

Wouldn't be the first time the GOP started a war to win an election... ever see the documentary "Why we fight"...very eye opening.

How can You Judge Russia and Ossetia if You See and have access to
only One side of that conflict?
You see only US TV and Media!
BUT they LIE and protect only their gov's asses and interests in
georgian ubnormal and unhuman leader because they made a bid on him.
They Totally blocked Any other world opinions.
So when people see only that Lie info all over again - they're for
sure can't think Clear and Right - they think and eat what they got
from Media and Politics etc...
Nobody think about nightly killed ossetians. - But You?
Nobody want to know that not Russians but Svilli broked his peace
promisses and ordered a night civilians Bombing!
BTW - it was at Olimpic openings night in hope to blitzcreig war
win...
And Russians start protect deadly attacked civilians and peacekeepers
ONLY after 16 hours after Sakhashvilli ordered " Kill them all !"

Would You like to fill bombs, bullets, Grads, mines and snipers at
Your own Family 16 hours long before someone help You? Where were US
EU helps???
And don't You ask a God to save Your Mom, Dad and kids from georgian
troops armed by US etc...?

So Please don't Judge if You listen only One side of any
conflict(especially if that Side is Money/Miltary/Politicaly
interested in...)

Have the Russians given any further reason for these checkpoints and continued occupation of Georgia beyond S.Ossetia borders?

I would think they should withdraw to S.Ossetia territory unless there is something very very important for them to achieve in Georgia.

Putin and Bush were very friendly in Beijing. Does this mean they're working together for McCain?

"Obama’s strategy of disengagement would allow Russia to control the world’s oil resources,"

Our euro whiskey tango puppet Georgia picked a fight with the fat kid, Sacka-silly or whatever threw the 1st punch and got an old fashioned beat down. Win some lose some, rub dirt on it, feces happens. Russia is allowed to protect their interests, we do, so can they.

If it would make the GOP neo-pube children happy, I'll give them a Georgian war "Participation Award" so they'll feel like winners, with honor.

And although it might look like Russia is "occupying" Georgia, but its really an "enhanced stay technique"...

Let's not pretend the Russians are motivated by, ah, humanitarian impulses.

We weren't in Kosovo, or bombing civilian targets in Yugoslavia, on "ah" humanitarian impulses either.

SPARTA VS PERSIA =
GEORGIA VS RUSSIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIiv1GJLTVk

Russia is just another evil empire from the east trying to dominate the world. Either free men will fight them, or millions will live in totalitarian hell.

bOB:
Georgia gave us Stalin and Berisha. The evil empire at its true evil was run by Georgians.

It was Georgia that sent U.S. supported and trained military troops to kill scores of defenseless Russians in South Ossetia who wanted independence from Georgia. Russia sent in troops to put an end to the slaughter of its own people! This is Russia's neighborhood and Russia has a right to defend its people. We have no right to be there giving military training and weapons to Georgia.

Why is President Bush antagonizing Russia by expanding NATO and wanting to build missiles in countries neighboring Russia? Russia is no longer the Soviet Union. It was Russia that let those neighboring countries become free and independent in the first place. Russia is now democratic. So, why Mr. President, do you wish to expand NATO develop missile shield treaties with Russia's neighbors?

President Bush and his cabinet have no understanding of complex social, political, and international issues whether it be Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, you name it. President Bush has lied (not merely been wrong, but lied) and obfuscated, and drummed up "evidence" to suit his purposes. Being pro-life does not exonerate him for the evils and deceptions he has committed.

I thought it was a joke that we went to war with Iraq for oil, but now American oil companies are being offered cheap and long term lucrative leases to Iraq's oil fields. You do the math.

You have to understand, there are 75% of Russian citizens in Ossetia.

Plus, the other 25% who wants to be inside Russia and wants the bombing stop from Georgia that goes on from 1989 -- every and each year creating refugies who runs to Russia for help. North Ossetia and Ingushetia (within Russia) meeting 15,000 to 30,000 refugies every year that creates chaos and economical problems within those territories.