They will be prepared to show McCain's "home" in Hanoi by using images of his cell. They claim they have not overused the POW element and insist they have "underused it."

They will, however, continue to insist that McCain doesn't want to talk about his POW experience -- and, if you mention that, then they'll whine that it's outrageous to mention that a POW who claims he doesn't want to talk about his time as a POW is talking about his time as a POW, because my god this man was a POW and hasn't he suffered enough?!?!

How about remembering the Keating Five. Guess who was one of the five?

Did you know that for five years John McCain couldn't exploit his POW status for political gain because HE WAS IN PRISON?

They're going from "noun verb POW" to "noun verb POW preposition POW adverb POW".

They will be prepared to show McCain's "home" in Hanoi by using images of his cell.

Are they sure he can remember how many cells he had?

Hey Steve, just FYI, in the Comments popup the Political Animal graphic still says "by Kevin Drum." Probably want to fix that.

*

I remember in the Paris metro seeing a young man who was sitting on a rug with his withered limbs on prominent display, waiting for the coins to be left in a bucket ... it was so embarrassing ... McCain is going into this sorry territory. It's pitiful ...

p.s. I bet lots of vets are getting really pissed off about this

I remember in the Paris metro seeing a young man who was sitting on a rug with his withered limbs on prominent display, waiting for the coins to be left in a bucket ... it was so embarrassing ... McCain is going into this sorry territory. It's pitiful ...

p.s. I bet lots of vets are getting really pissed off about this

They're going from "noun verb POW" to "noun verb POW preposition POW adverb POW".

Actually, they're going right to "POW! POW! POW! POW-POW-POW!" It's like the captions to the Batman TV series fight scenes, only without the nuance.....

The logic of why the POW experience was in any way relevant to McCain's political suitability always escaped me. Presumably it would suggest we should give anyone else who was a POW during that time period high political office, and forgive them for multiple episodes of dishonesty and misconduct, right? If not, why is it this special immunity only works for McCain?

I've seen some stupid political seasons before (actually I think nearly all are pretty stupid). I don't recall the stupid being quite so shameless and transparent.

I know most of you are hepcats, but just in case you didn't see it...

The official POW card

Via CL:

as Steve Benen pointed out:

Four years ago, when John Kerry campaigned in part on his military service, McCain criticized him for it, saying he was “sick and tired of re-fighting the Vietnam War.� McCain even disparaged Kerry personally, saying his emphasis on his military record is “clearly a tactical or strategic move.�

What makes McCain’s claim all the more hypocritical is the fact that his campaign has recently been invoking the ‘POW card’ anytime their candidate is questioned, not just biographically for political benefit as the senator did over and over during pastor Rick Warren’s Saddleback Presidential Candidates Forum, but quite literally offering it as an excuse for anything and everything to the point many in the media have begun questioning the tactic:

Whether he’s deflecting criticism over his health-care plan or mocking a tribute to the Woodstock music festival, Senator John McCain has a trump card: the Hanoi Hilton. …

John McCain: I did not spend five years in the Hanoi Hilton.....

The American People: I don't see any connection to Vietnam, John.

John McCain: Well, there isn't a literal connection.

The American People: John, face it, there isn't any connection..... Everything's a fuckin' travesty with you, man! And what was all that shit about Vietnam? What the FUCK, has anything got to do with Vietnam? What the fuck are you talking about?

Mabye we can use John McCain's POW excuse for ourselves...

For example, I missed church this morning because I was up late reading blog posts about John McCain. He was a POW ya' know.

John McCain = POW = Person Of Wealth

"I had rather have one scratch my head in the sun
When the alarum were struck than idly sit
To hear my nothings monster'd."
--Coriolanus, Act II, scene 2

That said, monsterate away!

Very good, EvilPoet.

It worked for William Henry Harrsion, didn't it?

Tippicanoe and Romney too.

Log cabins and strange underwear!

The question needs to be asked: Should he win the election, does McCain intend to use his POW experience as an excuse for any and all misbehavior as President? Or will McCain promise to stop using his POW experience as a universal excuse for all of his mistakes after the election?

Hey, Stefan at 2:38 - that was funny as hell.

I believe I used this analogy once before, but hearing of this McCain camp "strategy" puts me in mind of the old Far Side cartoon in which a cat is curiously following a CAT FUD ------> sign pointing at an open clothes dryer. A partially hidden dog clasps his paws prayerfully and whispers, "Oh, please, please, please....!"

Two key points on this:

1. The Repogues made it fair game in the last three elections to belittle the military service of their political opponents (while hiding themselves and their shitty policy behind "support the troops" rhetoric). They have built their party around false patriotism and if McCain gets eaten by this monster that his own party created, then it should be considered poetic justice.

2. Through sheer repetition McCain is lifting the veil of sanctity away from discussion of his POW experience. His campaign has put this item in the spotlight again and again and the result is that key questions about whether or not his POW experience may actually be a mental hindrance to being CINC are now coming up again. As Frank Rich suggested today, is this a guy who is simply has a Jones to re-fight the Cold War? Would he be able to make non-emotional decisions on use of force issues?

The POW experience has become central to McCain's rational for just about everything. Has it impaired his judgment?

There are numerous references on the web about people in the Republican party that have questioned his temperament and even his sanity based upon his POW experience.

More here:
http://www.usvetdsp.com/dec07/mccain_suicide_ptsd.htm

Brick Oven Bill's comments are being reviewed, and any that are determined to possibly give him McPoints for trolling liberal sites (WaMo was on McCain's list of recommended blogs) to earn him a crappy t-shirt made in China are being deleted. -Mod]

John McCain was a P.O.W., Prisone of W.

I so totally stole that from a commentor at TPM.

Senator’s sons do not enlist in the Marine Corps, they go to the Service Academies, even the dumb ones...

Beau Biden ships out the day after the VP debates. Of course, he's not a Marine, and an officer, and his father's a Democrat, so it doesn't count

Brick Oven, I'm totally lost on your line of thinking. His son rebelled against him, so that makes him worthy of the presidency? How does that in any way make sense?

The reason is his son, who serves as an enlisted Marine rifleman in Iraq.

So hold your fire and wait until Jimmy McCain runs for something and vote for him if that is your reasoning.

I realize you are new here, so I have for the most part held my fire, but with every comment you make you are swimming farther and farther away from the pier and showing us just how far out of your element you are, especially when you try to grasp issues of geopolitics.

Cue the inane blather about Iran and the Straits of Hormuz in 3..2..1..

Brick Oven, I'm totally lost on your line of thinking. His son rebelled against him, so that makes him worthy of the presidency? How does that in any way make sense?

It doesn't. It's just garbled nonsense. Obviously he's been drinking.

According to the Department of Veterans Affairs, over 142,000 Americans were prisoners-of-war from World War I to the end of the 20th-Century, over 725 in Vietnam, of whom only one or two are said to have traded 'confessions' for special treatment.

So while it's great and nifty and keen and swell and heroic and tear-jerking and manly and all that crap that McCain was a P.O.W., it's hardly a singular achievement.

Brick Oven Bill's comments are being reviewed, and any that are determined to possibly give him McPoints for trolling liberal sites (WaMo was on McCain's list of recommended blogs) to earn him a crappy t-shirt made in China are being deleted. -Mod]

Senator’s have high hopes for their sons...

Unlike all other parents....

He didn’t have to do this and probably did it against his father’s wishes. I consider this to reflect well on the father.

Dood, that is priceless. We've been needing some new parodies around here.

The thing about Kerry's heroism is that he shot at people who could shoot back.

PS to Washington Monthly: FIX THE GODDAMN COMMENTING SYSTEM

"And it is the only reason I will vote for him"

Absolutely. It really is the only reason why anyone should vote for any candidate this year, when you stop and think about it.

Seriously.

So the typical service is as an officer in the rear echelons of war zones. This protects the precious DNA but also earns the ribbon.

McCain also has a son graduating from the Naval Academy next year, and will undoubtedly be one of those REMFs you seem to so despise.

Brick Oven Bill's comments are being reviewed, and any that are determined to possibly give him McPoints for trolling liberal sites (WaMo was on McCain's list of recommended blogs) to earn him a crappy t-shirt made in China are being deleted.]

Did being a POW over forty years ago cause McBush to sell his soul to Rove=Evil ? So that now alls we here are lies, smears, and racism from his putrid mouth ? When is the last time that anyone has heard about McBush's actual policies ? He has become a soul less buffoon .. maybe another box of sprinkled donuts is what he needs ........ calling AP, calling AP ..

He asked the New York Times not the run the story. -Brick Oven Bill

Not for any political reason. He asked them not to run the story so his son wouldn't become a target, just like what happened with Prince Harry of England.

So I guess you've got that: John McCain - unwilling to endanger his son for political gain.

Doesn't really make a great bumper sticker, does it?

Ok cool bring that POW thing up a bunch.

For the last 7+ yrs we've had a real looser that was unsucessful in every effort of his life. Propped up by daddy and his friends to make the Presidential Play with a few crafty f*%ks to steal the election and keep it covered in smoke and mirrors.

Now we have a different kind of loser, One who managed to get caught by the Cong, brainwashed and has some sort of epiphany/religious experience to steal from the elderly and make it walk aka the Keating 7 and the S&L collapse a few years back. And a politico is just the job for such a crook.

Hundreds of thousands of guys managed to get out of 'Nam, not this Presidential hopeful (loser). This same old guy charms some dufus wealthy girl to pick him up. Man I'm tired of stupid losers and thieves running my country.

What about the other guy? Top of his class at one of the better schools. Heck throw mud at him it'll wash off. I really hope the best man can still win.

So bring up the POW thing enough till somebody figures out that a repugnican that gets caught is truly a loser, and Cindy ain't payin the freight for the contest. We are, one way or another....

Jail Bush & Co!!!!!!!

So I chose the smart guy

He didn’t have to do this and probably did it against his father’s wishes. I consider this to reflect well on the father

Haha! "Screw you dad! I'm enlisting. This will teach you to abandon Mom and us for your rich trophy wife! I hate you dad!"

Yep, it reflects well on the old man.

http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html

OK, so who'll give me odds on McCain totally snaps during one of the debates?

What, at least 2 - 1.

McCain criticized him for it, saying he was “sick and tired of re-fighting the Vietnam War.�

Well you see, Kerry was fighting in Vietnam. John McPOW (R-Hanoi Hilton) wasn't fighting in Vietnam.

BECAUSE HE WAS A POW!

Jesus Christ. I know they probably can't be bothered because they aren't psychotic egomaniacs but I wish someone would start POWs for Obama.

"And it is the only reason I will vote for him"

At the end of this path lies the Stahlhelm, the Croix-de-Feu and the Falange.

Maybe they can send him back for a five year, live re-enactment?

orange, bitchez

"OK, so who'll give me odds on McCain totally snaps during one of the debates?"

I think it should be a drinking game: every time McCain references the POW thing during a debate, we all have to do a shot. Winner is the one who passes out first.

Haha! "Screw you dad! I'm enlisting. This will teach you to abandon Mom and us for your rich trophy wife! I hate you dad!"

A slight problem with that is that Jimmy McCain is 20, and Cindy is his mother. But it does raise a couple of questions that I have not seen asked...Where are Carol's children? I have not heard so much as a peep out of the daughter he had with her, nor from the two children from her first marriage that he adopted when he married her. They have certainly kept a low profile, probably because, like their mother they "wish him well" but have nothing else to say on the matter. Does not speak too highly of him, does it?

I come to this discussion a little biased. My dad was a WWII vet. He saw a lot of combat.Of the 64 men who started out in his squadron 8 lived. I learned about a lot of it after he died from my mom. He earned a lot of medals. He never talked about them or showed them to anybody. As a kid I had to sneak into his drawer to find them. Shortly before his first real stroke, I asked him about his service. He looked at me and said "son all I ever wanted out of the Navy was me." The clear message was he did his duty. There is no glory in war.

With that background I can only imagine that my dad would be disgusted by old noun, verb and POW. He sure as hell would never allow his combat service be used as a universal get out of trouble card.

I wonder what all those other former POWs and Vets are thinking about McCain's cheapening of their sacrifices about now.

Blue Girl, I have heard that one of McCain's older children is an executive in Cindy's beer business. I might be wrong.

Those of us who have been begging for better trolls cheer the arrival of Brick Oven Bill.

There sure are a lot of people who don't like McCain, but don't like Obama more. Of course disliking Obama has nothing to do with race. He's just so damn uppity!

The Repogues made it fair game in the last three elections to belittle the military service of their political opponents (while hiding themselves and their shitty policy behind "support the troops" rhetoric). They have built their party around false patriotism and if McCain gets eaten by this monster that his own party created, then it should be considered poetic justice.

It would be very helpful if one of the surrogates would start talking up how:

"We Democrats would never impugn anyone's military service, unlike the Republicans who smeared Al Gore, John Kerry and Max Cleland - guys who actually served in Vietnam and were smeared by Republicans who didn't. So Senator McCain's military service should be honored, though obviously in and of itself his wartime experience does not make him any more qualified to handle foreign or military policy than any other man or woman who has worn the uniform and made similar wartime sacrifices. While we owe a debt of gratitude to all the men and women who have served - a debt that we should and can in part repay by offering them the best medical care and education and other benefits - something Senator McCain voted against here just a few months ago - I don't think anyone would argue that we owe each of them the presidency. Or that past military service gives them some type of diplomatic immunity, where all mistakes are forgiven and forgotten thanks to service years ago. So while we do honor Senator McCain's service and recognize that his experience was an important part of shaping who he is, we fail to see how the years he spent in a prison cell in any way explain why he doesn't know how many houses he has today. No one was suggesting that Senator McCain doesn't deserve to have all those houses, which is what his campaign's response seems to assume. What we were suggesting was that anyone who is trying to paint their opponent as an "elitist" because he noted an increase in the price of a particular salad green is not in a really good position to be throwing those stones if he has so many houses he can't even remember them all. We would never suggest he doesn't deserve all those houses - after what he went through in Vietnam? - but on the other hand, it's not a very good excuse for believing that making $4.9 million a year is middle class, or that migrant lettuce pickers get paid $50 an hour."

Sometimes, the best course of action is to just point at the turd in the punchbowl and call it a turd, though it will doubtless be considered "impolite" by those who would prefer to avert their eyes and ignore the stench in order to maintain the pretense that the thing does not exist.

Sounds like Jimmy McCain bought some of the shit his dad's been selling.

This country, particularly those who voted for Bush, has already spoken about the value of military service. By belittling Kerry's heroic service and questioning his Navy issued medals, they made it known that military experience (winning medals, pow, losing limbs as has happened in Senator Max Cleland's case) means nothing. The genie is out of the bottle and those who let it out are doing nothing to put it back in.

McCain's POW experience is meaningless in the context of a presidential contest. He already gained enough political capital for being a POW. Enough already.

At a practical level, by tolerating attacks on Kerry and on McCleland, the country has already demonstrated that it doesn't give a damn about military experience. And let's not even get into Bush's AWOL. I think the Democratic Party should realize this and not be afraid to call McCain on his POW crutch.

Brick Oven Bill: Obama rebels by going to Trinity United...

What, while his mom is belatedly telling him how wrongheaded he is pulling himself up by his bootstraps? While he's going to Columbia and Harvard, being president of the Harvard Law Review, being elected to the Illinois Senate, being elected to the US Senate, and winning the Democratic nomination for US President?

This country can only wish for more such rebels. Yet you proclaim Obama's accomplishments somehow count for less than McCain's son declaiming advantages of birth? Please. Take your ignorant and ugly insinuations back to the gutter and away from here.

In a practical sense, by tolerating attacks on Kerry and Max Cleland, the country has already shown that military experience is not worth revering. The Democratic Party should realize this fact and be bold in calling McCain on his POW crutch.

I have heard that one of McCain's older children is an executive in Cindy's beer business. I might be wrong.

Thanks Ron. I had not heard this, so I will keep an ear to the ground for verification of this.

The only issue facing the U.S. that directly relates to Mr. McCain's experience as P.O.W. is the fact that the U.S. has joined that proud pantheon of nations that use torture as a matter of policy. Over 100 people - many of them likely innocent, many turned in for bounty - have died in the process of interrogation. Even the Pentagon admits that 12 of the deaths are likely due to overly enhanced interrogation methods. On this issue, Mr. McCain made a short show of opposition for the media then jumped into line wholly and fully. The horrors he underwent in the Hanoi Hilton are no longer considered "torture" if they are performed by those in American uniform. It's hard to think of any single action that does more to discredit American troops.

Hensley & Co. list Andrew McCain as CFO. According to Wikipedia, Andrew is Carol McCain's son (not Cindy's) from her first marriage, adopted by John one year after their marriage.

Why is having been a POW even a consideration for becoming president?? If anything having been tortured should be a disqualifier because one can never be sure of the permanent side effects that may linger in the subconsciousness from having endured torture. Being forced into making a sacrifice for ones country is questionable heroism. He didn't volunteer to be a POW to take someone else's place. He had no choice.

Being a POW doesn't negate the fact that he graduated 894th out of 899 men from his Annapolis class. That should be a big indication of his ability to lead.

Captured in a war based on deceit and lies after bombing villages and killing hundreds of innocent women and children, destroying homes and families for a war based on the Gulf of Tonkin lie is conflicting heroism with endurance and survival. The real heroes are those who refused to take part in that hideous mass murder event, whose lives were ruined by "hell no we won't go" stands.

I sympathize with McCain for undergoing great suffering after being caught in war-crime he was enabling but the idea of heroism is misplaced and most certainly does not demonstrate the ability to lead a nation or make good judgments for our nations defense or security and definitely not our economy.

Is it just me or does all this Prisoner of War repetition start to meld into Zero Mostel, Gene Wilder, and Prisoners of Love?

btw...if McCain's service from 40yrs ago is so relevant that his campaign brings it up so often then isn't McCain's hot dogging "wet start" jet start on board the USS Forrestal that got 137 of his fellow servicemen killed from trying to show off relevant also. He was after all the only person "immediately" flown off ship after that disaster for fear of retaliation even before the fires were out and the sailors were in body bags. Good judgment...experience in covering your ass. Google it, they have video and audio. Some say his POW experience was Karma due.

I have nothing to do with John McCain and have never visited his web-site. I have no need for McPoints as I am a small businessman who owns two houses. My business started in my garage with a $10k military bonus. I employed a lesbian and protest the removal of my comments. They are my own.

[Protest away, but the fact remains that you showed up around the same time that the McCain website added Washington Monthly to the list of liberal blogs for their supporters to troll for points. In light of that, your McCain-based comments will be deleted, and I don’t care how loud you wail, that is simply the way it is. Deal, or don’t. I couldn’t care less one way or the other. My job is to moderate the comments section using my own judgment. As you have no history here to predate the McCain scheme, I am going with my judgment and deleting comments you make about McCain. –Mod]

John McCain said on TV with Katie Couric that he is very grateful for his seven houses because for five he had no kitchen table. The implication was that: "Hey, people, be grateful you have a house and a kitchen table and stop whining about the economy. Because I was POW, I know to appreciate what I have." It reminds me of Phil Gramm.

I don't think this is a smart way to use his POW experience these days. After all, lots of people have lost their one home through the mortgage crisis.

Let him continue with this.

There's no indication that McCain aides were kidding.

I'm sure they weren't. McCain-as-POW is a central part of his character and story. While the POW card may have badly played recently, it's far from played out, and McCain has plenty of experience playing it. Expect it to be a major theme at the Republican convention... duty, honor, sacrifice, etc., and to provide a significant convention bounce for McCain.

It is also likely to underline (if not in quite such a ham-handed manner as we have seen), everything until November. The McCain campaign would like nothing better than to keep the focus on that story, because policy is a loser. The Obama campaign would benefit from more focus on policy.

sorry, that 7:35 PM post was mine.

Naw, Rove pretty much paved the way to tranpling on McCains loose nut.

John McCain was a P.O.W., Prisoner of W. -- Dee Loralei, @ 15:45

Then, shouldn't it be POD -- Prisoner of Dumbya?
_________________________

I employed a lesbian -- Brick Oven Bill, @19:26

How vewy, vewy bwave of you!

McCain is bluffing - you just gotta call him on it. Same as with the "now this opens the door for OUR attack...". These responses just prove to me that the right move is to stay on the offense here.

Ohh and the lebowski reference above - brilliant. Somebody needs to do some video editing on that one.

Sorry; that was me, @ 20:03

Pox on this WM/PA lemon; it refuses to remember my info!

Brick Oven Bill -- You've never visited McCain's web site? You've then never read his current pronouncements or policy positions--which his web site is used to distribute? You readily admit to complete and utter ignorance of McCain's positions, except apparently what you read or hear second- third- or fourth-hand, or is it simply your lack of sentience and the voices resonating in the cavity of your empty skull that drives you to post such drivel?

Good grief! When I forgot to type in both name and e-address, the message got posted, without a hitch. But, when in typing the e-address I accidentally left a space after the username (and before the @), the message was returned with a plea to correct that, before hitting "Post" again.

WTF? Has WasMo hired a retired commie Polack cop to write its software? It sure sounds like something straight out of those crazy jokes we used to tell about our cops (and which y'all borrowed as "Polack jokes")...

I have never visited McCain's web site. I haven't.

“Place your premium ad here.�

There is a John McCain banner displayed at the top of this web-site. At least on my screen. I am not a John McCain fan.

Salutes.
“One man has our trust.�

I guess it comes down to that.

[The regulars have been mocking that ad for a while. The Monthly has "googleads" installed, and they are based on content. Since he is a topic of frequent conversation, that ad is frequently there. But I would like to echo some of the commenters and recommend you visit the sites of both candidates and educate yourself on the issues and leave your emotions out of it.]

So, Brick Oven Bill, you're voting for McCain because he was in the military? Thank goodness Lyndie England isn't running for anything.

Honestly, no one is buying your crap. If you're not into learning about the candidates, wtf are you doing commenting on a political blog?

Let 'em use the POW thing. They got nothing else and that's already becoming apparent. It'll lose it's power to move people simply because of the repetition. The fact that the McCain message people don't see that is another indication of how poorly the messaging in particular, and the campaign in general, is being run.
McCain can POW all day long I say!!

I employed a lesbian -- Brick Oven Bill, @19:26

You know it is possible that at some point I might have employed an lesbian too, but I never asked. The sexual orientation of my employees is none of my business.

How dare you. There was a time when McCain couldn't use the POW story: When he was a POW!

Hey folks, they also have Phil Graham, Carly Fiorina and a whole host of golden parachute morons! Oh wait, there's Meg Whitman now! What a load of SHIT, through and through!

Again, am I missing something here? Remember personal info toggled - Check!

Close window, look for cookie, no se! No entiendo! Es Blanco!

Doubtful asks:

“wtf are you doing commenting on a political blog?�

Mostly my conscious. I have been deeply influenced by Hyman Rickover though. His is recommended reading:

“For the citizen, this courage means a frank exposition of a problem and a decrying of the excesses of power. It takes courage to do this because in our polite society frank speech is discouraged. But when this attitude relates to questions involving the welfare or survival of the Nation, it is singularly unfitting to remain evasive. It is not only possible, but in fact duty of everyone to state precisely what his knowledge and conscience compel him to say. Many of today's problems can be brought forward only by complete candor and frankness; deep respect for the facts, however unpleasant and uncomfortable; great efforts to know them where they are not readily available; and drawing conclusions guided only by rigorous logic.�

The lesbian told me all about her sexual proclivities Ron, I did not know ahead of time. She also started wearing tight shirts without bras. She hugged me funnily.

John McCain, The King of Pain

Here's how our side should respond:

"I'm glad you brought that up, John. Because every citizen of the USA is a prisoner of an economy ruined by eight years of bad policies from the Bush administration -- policies you supported and say you want to continue."

I love moron blowhard fuckups like Brick Oven Dumbshit.

Hey, Bill, Hitler was in the Army too. So, by your logic, you would vote for Hitler over Obama.

What a prize moron.

I believe John McCain's service should be honored.

I believe he should be entitled to a dignified retirement.

The Presidency, however, is not an honorary office.

It's a job--the toughest perhaps in the world. And John McCain is not up to the job--just like George W. Bush was not up to the job.

Whether he's too old or whether he just coasts along on staff work and privilege, I don't know. But he acts stupid and careless and--most important--expects to be covered for. And that's the worst thing.

I agree with Jack Cafferty--I'm sick and tired of being embarrassed by my Presidents.

WE should honor John McCain by giving him a nice honorary appointment--say, ambassador to Czechoslovakia.

Many of today's problems can be brought forward only by complete candor and frankness; deep respect for the facts... -Hyman Rickover via Brick Oven Bill

You say you were "deeply influenced" by the passage you cited, part of which I quoted again for emphasis. This seems antithesis you your aversion to facts about McCain.

If you don't look beyond his participation in the military to earn your support, then how are you respecting fact? I think the answer is you very clearly aren't.

If I had been overusing the POW story, people would know I was a POW.

McCain should worry that his overuse of POW status will get some reporters interested in the "rumors" (actually the truth) about his POW "service."

McCain is the only Vietnam POW who became a POW out of stupidity: Rule Number 1 of attack aviation is: "Do not turn around and fly low and slow over the place you just bombed now that they're ready and waiting." This is how moron-boy got shot down.

Were it not for his being a POW, he'd have no "service" to point to. This idiot had been officially passed over twice for promotion from Lieutenant Commander to Commander (the usual cause of this, according to senior Navy types I have interviewed, is "lack of maturity" - in McCain's case, that's still a problem), and knew unofficially that he was going to be passed over the crucial third time that November 1, 1967, which would mean his naval career was effectively over unless he wanted to spend the next 9 years as a LCDR until being involuntarily retired on 20 years' in service. Then he got shot down in October 1967, which put him into the "POW promotion fast track," in which POWs were given promotion at the first opportunity they were eligible (regardless of other factors). Voila! He gets his promotion to Commander that November, and is promoted to Captain in 1972.

Unfortunately for McCain, his "lack of maturity" and general incompetence (this is the guy who graduated 494 of 499 in his Annapolis class and then crashed five airplanes, at least three of which would have gotten him the boot had he not been the son and grandson of Admirals, for "pilot error"), ended his Naval career after he was released and failed at his chance at a Captain's command (Replacement Attack Air Squadron Atlantic - "grad school" for attack aviation in the Atlantic Fleet), and after 18 months of failure there he was told there would be no third Admiral McCain.

They then made him a "congressional liason" due to his "fame" (i.e., get the congressmen drunk and get them girls so they vote for more Big Boys Toys), which is where he finally found his "calling" (and his goose with the golden egg, Cindy).

If the MSM ever gets hold of the truth about McCain's naval career, his goose is cooked.

And that's even without the not-definitively-provable point that his "joke" of a "wet start" on the Forrestal was what caused the fire on July 29, 1967 (known in the Navy as "The Forrestfire") that killed 137 sailors and put the ship out of commission for two years at the height of the war.

Brick Oven Bill is one of our McCainiac Bloggers.

He makes many persuasive points, though sometimes he can be emotional and this is counterproductive when debating liberals.

He has been issued a demerit against his reward points. This should be sufficient and Brick Oven will be back to his usual awesome blogging self.

Thank You

McCain Blog Outreach Coordinator

There's only one veep for McCain.

Colin POWell.

The lesbian told me all about her sexual proclivities Ron, I did not know ahead of time. She also started wearing tight shirts without bras. She hugged me funnily.
Posted by: Brick Oven Bill

It's because you're dickless.

People wouldn't put up with the other party campaigning against McCain if they knew he was a POW.

TCinLA (i wonder who that is :-) Andrew Sullivan actually made a sly reference to the Forrestal in his Sunday column in the London Times. He also described McCain as

Russia invaded Georgia and McCain hogged the airwaves, reacting as if he were a hyperactive but knowledgeable president.

Brick Oven Bill is one of our McCainiac Bloggers.

He makes many persuasive points, though sometimes he can be emotional and this is counterproductive when debating liberals.

He has been issued a demerit against his reward points. This should be sufficient and Brick Oven will be back to his usual awesome blogging self.

Thank You

McCain Blog Outreach Coordinator

There isn't much to argue about on this, as time will tell fairly quickly who is right. Maybe McCain's camp is right, and there's this untapped well of voters who don't know he was once a POW, and will consider it relevant to how he would lead the country. We'll know if they double up on the POW talk that they think the topic is a winner for them.

I'll bet they don't double up on the POW talk, and the threat to do so was nothing but a defensive reaction to the charge that they've overused it already. The problem is that they haven't really made the connection between his experience as a POW and his quest for the presidency. With the connection so hazy, they run the risk that the message will be taken as "those goddam gooks broke my arms, I deserve to be President". And in a time less fraught with uncertainty, that might have been enough. But I'm thinking a lot of people want their government to actually do something

I think it was the crash that messed up McCain's arms, aggravated by lack of medical care. Even with that it was Carol McCain that John considered to be messed up.

The John McCain increasingly reminds me of Ulysses S. Grant.

General Grant was a war hero who turned that fame into a political career. Unfortunately leading the Union Army was not great preparation for being President and his administration was a disaster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant

In particular Grant was a terrible judge of character which led directly to his administration being legendary for its levels of corruption.

If only, sigh, the MSM would, errr, educate the public about Grant, and then, umm, make the connection, and yeah, well nevermind...

Fish in a barrel...

McCain is the only Vietnam POW who became a POW out of stupidity: Rule Number 1 of attack aviation is: "Do not turn around and fly low and slow over the place you just bombed now that they're ready and waiting." This is how moron-boy got shot down.

Link?

Were it not for his being a POW, he'd have no "service" to point to. This idiot had been officially passed over twice for promotion from Lieutenant Commander to Commander (the usual cause of this, according to senior Navy types I have interviewed, is "lack of maturity"

Uhhh, no.

Then he got shot down in October 1967, which put him into the "POW promotion fast track," in which POWs were given promotion at the first opportunity they were eligible (regardless of other factors). Voila! He gets his promotion to Commander that November, and is promoted to Captain in 1972.

Being a POW meant getting tested. Not everyone got a "gift" promotion out of it.

...and then crashed five airplanes

Eh? Sounds to me like the only one he'd possibly bear blame for is hitting the wire in Spain. Link please? In one of the 5 he was shot down. In another it was mechanical failure. Another he wasn't even flying, he was sitting on deck chained down. Another he was a nugget student.

...and failed at his chance at a Captain's command (Replacement Attack Air Squadron Atlantic - "grad school" for attack aviation in the Atlantic Fleet)

The "RAG" as it is known was a CAPT's command.

And that's even without the not-definitively-provable point that his "joke" of a "wet start" on the Forrestal was what caused the fire on July 29, 1967 (known in the Navy as "The Forrestfire") that killed 137 sailors and put the ship out of commission for two years at the height of the war.
Posted by: TCinLA

Nice little "coup de bullshit" on the last one. Since the tailpipe of his aircraft pointed out over the ocean (actually hung over the side of the ship) and the plane whose missile hit his was on the other side of the ship, your story is impossible.

As the Vietnam war was ramping up the height of the Vietnam war McCain went "flat-topping" at low altitude over Spain when he clipped some electric wires and went down. That was just one of his five crashes.

His military career was over before he got shot down over North Vietnam, and he knew it. He was a rich-admiral's-kid hot-shot loser before becoming a POW made him a celebrity.

That's not change we can believe in.

While we in Leftblogostan marvel at Dowd's betrayal of McCain, the very revealing opening paragraph of her piece has gone unnoticed.

My mom did not approve of men who cheated on their wives. She called them "long-tailed rats."

As the Vietnam war was ramping up the height of the Vietnam war McCain went "flat-topping" at low altitude over Spain when he clipped some electric wires and went down. That was just one of his five crashes.
Posted by: pj in jesusland

Actually, he hit some wires but brought his plane back (according to Wiki). No crash. Back to TCinLA...

This idiot had been officially passed over twice for promotion from Lieutenant Commander to Commander...and knew unofficially that he was going to be passed over the crucial third time that November 1, 1967

More bullshit. According to official Navy records he was promoted to LCDR in January 1967, and so wouldn't even be eligible to be looked at for promotion to CDR for what is usually about 5 or so years.

Yes, everyone, the 'Remember personal info?' button hasn't worked in, what? A year? It did once upon a time, but then this site got a spam filter and comment moderation...and hasn't worked since.

bwick on August 24, 2008 at 9:45 PM:

There's only one veep for McCain...Colin POWell.

Yeah, I hear they're having a morning POW wow to talk about it in Lake POWell, Utah ...afterward, they'll hit a Thai restaurant and have some Prad KraPOW, a pretty good POWer lunch.

Considering how Wesley Clark was hammered after pointing out how being shot down in a plane was not qualification to become president, it is no wonder that McCain is pushing the POW story. It's nice to see some push back from the Dems.

Just saw Krauthammer on Fox. Looks like he's been in the sun a lot lately with shades on - resulting the reverse racoon-style tan. Looks like a truck backed over his face.

He says Biden is a poor choice, lacks gravitas, doesn't know foreign policy well.

Brick Oven Bill is a parody, and a pretty funny one at that.

your story is impossible.
Posted by: SJRSM

Link?

Brick Oven Bill is a parody, and a pretty funny one at that.
Posted by: shortstop

Well, he's no IFP.

Was that wire-clipping incident the one that killed the skiers?

WRT ski-lift accident in Italy -- No, about 30 years too soon...

Memekiller and Mercenary Cookbook are one and the same??? I'll be POW-ed... I always liked them both(back at TCBR), but hadn't figured that out.

Lemon

What else does he have to offer?

I want to hear Joe Biden say, "Noun, Verb, P.O.W."

Well, Mike (SJRSM to the new folks), my dad crossed paths with McCain a couple of times during his career, and considered him one of a handful of people he wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. Thought he was a punk. I remember when he was shot down, and I heard my dad say the coldest thing I ever heard come out of his mouth..."I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but I'm not shedding any tears over that sonofabitch." I'm glad he isn't here to see this election because it would kill him.

The point is, we don't know what the hell he did or didn't do because he has only released a scant few pages of a record that goes on for hundreds. Without evidence to contradict my father, I assume his disdain was not misplaced, and that would be in keeping, because he was a level headed, reasonable man. That he despised him so sticks out in my mind because he was not a meanspirited or vindictive man. He cared deeply about every Sailor he ever transmitted an order to, and never gave one he would hesitate to follow.

I can't remember - Had you wandered in here yet when Kerry was running? Did you defend your fellow Sailor then? Or criticize him along with the rest of the right? I'm not being snarky - I honestly don't remember - and the update that screwed up the "remember personal info" button wiped out most of the old comments.

You "honestly don't remember" that SJRSM/Jingo/Red State Mike has been continually obsessed with defending the Swiftboaters and denigrating Kerry? It'd be extremely tough to miss that continually recurring theme--yes, many times since the 2006 election--in his posts.

Oopsie, 2004 election, not 2006.

McCain spent his years in captivity well, cooperating with his Commie captors. Are his aides going to be emphasizing that?

I can't remember - Had you wandered in here yet when Kerry was running? Did you defend your fellow Sailor then?
Posted by: Blue Girl

I also knew people who knew McCain and served with him. His rep as womanizer is well-ensconced in naval aviation lore.

But facts are facts. For example, doing a wet start on the deck of a carrier surrounded by tons of live armed ammo just for shits and giggles? Not in a million-million #$%-ing years. And bwick, google "Forrestal" and "video" and you can see where his plane was parked. Ditto for "passed over 3 times for CDR". Too easy to fact-check. Anybody want to type up a memo from 1970 using MS Word again?

And yes, I denigrated the winter soldier for his post-war winter soldiering in many a thread. Swore off the topic forever here. I see shortstop still obsesses on it.

PS: I was wrong, his tour as CO of the RAG was as a CDR, not CAPT.

I see shortstop still obsesses on it.

Hee. I had a few other things at the top of my mind and had forgotten all about it till BG brought it up. As many others have noted, you were pretty much known only for this topic. It'd be hard for anyone who was here to forget how spittle-flecked wacko you were on the subject.

Swore off the topic forever here.

If you say so.

It seems to me that these questions about McCain's pilot-in-command/student-aviator incidents ought to be resolvable by some enterprising journalist -- or at least brought into sharper focus within a margin of error.

Someone needs to root around the Library of Congress or the Naval Historical Center and dig out the back numbers of _Approach_, the naval aviation journal published by the Navy Safety Center, and _Naval Aviation News_, both of which regularly feature accident reports and lessons-learned (without identifying the NA's in question), from the months following McCain's known incidents. Given what is known, it ought to be a fairly simple job of inference to figure out which stories are about McCain.

Whatever else its flaws might be, the naval aviation community is remarkably candid when it comes to reporting the details of accidents in its in-house publications.

Then we can get the details of the wet start, the wire-clipping in Spain, and the other PIC incidents -- giving us a better picture of just how solid McCain is.

How could McCain single-handedly destroy 4 naval aircraft (1 not his fault, I agree) and still have the keys to another one?

Why did so many pilots fly and only about 10 get shot down?

He cut a lot of classes. He probably missed the class about "Evasive action when enemy missiles are fired."

In short, McCain was the beneficiary of nepotistical forgiveness. After that, he became an adulterous gigolo. His character is that of the cheat, the ass-kisser, the bully.

He is not a person we want with access to the Red Suitcase.

Someone needs to root around the Library of Congress or the Naval Historical Center and dig out the back numbers of _Approach_, the naval aviation journal published by the Navy Safety Center, and _Naval Aviation News_, both of which regularly feature accident reports and lessons-learned (without identifying the NA's in question), from the months following McCain's known incidents.

Approach's articles are all voluntarily submitted by the perps and are very rarely anonymous. Probably only 1% of the "there I was" stories make it in there.

As far as clipping a wire on a low level goes, it is unfortunately not a rare thing and remains a source of mishaps. A search on "wire strike" pulls up this recent article...

Article.

It was a beautiful day to be flying a hornet over Pennsylvania....Out of nowhere, a couple of spherical objects appeared in front of my windscreen that almost instantaneously transformed into a wall of power lines.

TC in LA wrote "McCain should worry that his overuse of POW status will get some reporters interested in the "rumors" (actually the truth) about his POW "service."

I was wondering if anyone else thought that. And I'm wondering if America would think so much of their "hero" if they knew he confessed to being a war criminal under "torture" but now thinks we can get actionable intelligence by torturing terror suspects.

If I were an attorney I would forever be getting in trouble for leading the witness, I'm afraid...

I'm still remembering about how your two corpsmen buds said Petraeus sucked as a leader. They nailed it too. Not.

They weren't corpsmen, they were lab techs; and they weren't my buds they were my staff. Both are now out of the Army. What they said was, with him in charge we would be in Iraq for "at least ten fucking years," and as they had both been twice already they were hanging it up. The E7 was fortunate enough to get a a civilian gig at the VA so his time in counted for retirement. The E5 started over at a civilian hospital.

SJRSM -- regardless of the source of articles in Approach and NA News, it might be worth looking.

Likewise the safety center and especially the squadron records at the National Archives in College Park, MD, all of which are now > 35 years old and should be indexed in a finding aid and fairly accessible.

For the intrepid, D.C.-based research types out there who have an interest in going to the National Archives in College Park:

McCain's squadron history

VA-42 -- Jun 1960 to Nov 1960
VA-65 -- Nov 1960 to Oct 1963
VT-7 -- Sep 1964 to Oct 1966
VA-44 -- Oct 1966 to Apr 1967
VA-46 -- May 1967 to Sep 1967
VA-163 -- Oct 1967

SJRSM -- regardless of the source of articles in Approach and NA News, it might be worth looking.

Good luck with that. They're great reading. Here's the index you want for Approach.

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/archiveindex/default.htm

I think attacking his mil record is dumb. Forged 1970s memos on a PC using MS Word dumb. You listed the better targets on your blog.

SJRSM -- regardless of the source of articles in Approach and NA News, it might be worth looking.

Good luck with that. They're great reading. Here's the index you want for Approach.

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/archiveindex/default.htm

I think attacking his mil record is dumb. Forged 1970s memos on a PC using MS Word dumb. You listed the better targets on your blog.

If I were an attorney I would forever be getting in trouble for leading the witness, I'm afraid...

Actually, you can ask leading questions of a hostile witness. You just can't lead your own witness.

In Viet Nam, McCain had huge firepower compared to those third world farmers. He was flying around in a state of the art fighter bomber. dropping bombs from thousands of feet up in the air. AND HE STILL COULDNT KEEP HIMSELF SAFE. Now hes complaining that he wasnt killed by the farmers? that they kept him alive for five years?

I dont see this as something worth bragging about. maybe if he capures bin laudin in hand to hand combat. theyre both old a sickly. should be a fair fight.

Attacking McCain's military record would be dumb unless he makes misleading claims about it. He completely cooperated with his captors with no indication that he was tortured into it. That's not the kind of fortitude one would want in a CIC.

Also, he's got the whole hate-the-gooks-forever thing going on which indicates that he never quite got the idea that his bombing-women-and-children was a pretty criminal thing to do.
A little more self-reflection in the leader of the free world would be nice.

SJRSM: I disagree that "attacking his mil record is dumb."

If McCain is making the case that it is his military record -- coupled with his "legendary" maverickiness -- that makes him qualified for the presidency, he's inviting examination of that record.

If the record proves to show -- as it might or might not -- that he was a generically incompetent officer, then that would have the effect of calling into question his fitness for leadership and the precise value of his presumptive "experience."

But to wave your hand and say that attacking someone's military record is "dumb" is itself dumb. If McClellan were running today, don't you think his inability to decisively out-do Robert E. Lee at Antietam, his failure to capture Richmond, and his performance in the Peninsula Campaign would be legitimate subjects for campaign debate?

If I were an attorney I would forever be getting in trouble for leading the witness, I'm afraid...

Best to avoid flat-out lying when leading witnesses, though, lest the jury think you're trying to have it both ways.

I will make sure I submit all future comments for prior approval before I post them.

Let's see how long that one lasts!

I will make sure I submit all future comments for prior approval before I post them.

Oh, no need for that. Just don't expect everyone to walk on eggshells.

As I am not a shrinking violet, and have never mastered that feat myself anyway, I don't expect it of anyone else.

Oh, I was misled by the huffing. We're square, then.

"Jet Dumper" John has a very vulnerable military record. He cut classes, and missed the important lecture on "Evading enemy missiles". He is possibly the worst pilot that has ever flown for the Navy, being single-handedly responsible for the loss of 4 jets, and involved in the loss of a 5th.

His prisoner status was his own fault.

Get out those Purple Heart Bandages. We are gonna trash "Jet Dumper" - Adulterous Gigolo John from now until Election Day.

He's an asshole