Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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August 28, 2008

CONVENTION OPEN THREAD.... It's a packed house, of course, at Invesco Field in Denver, and the fourth and final night of the Democratic Convention has been going off without a hitch. Tim Kaine ("Move, mountain!") was better than I expected, and Bill Richardson was probably the best I've ever seen him ("He may pay hundreds of dollars for his shoes, but we're the ones who'll pay for his flip-flops").

Al Gore, of course, continues to be one of the towering voices in the party, and the text of his speech has been posted on his blog. Take a look.

Coming up is a speech from someone named Barack Obama, who should take this stage within an hour or so. Also, hilzoy's iphone is working, so she may check in, and as I mentioned earlier, the Washington Monthly's Paul Glastris will be on NPR's "Talk of the Nation" immediately after Obama's address.

With that in mind, I thought I'd open the floor to some discussion. What do you think of the closing night of the convention? How cool was it to see Stevie Wonder perform, "Signed, Sealed, Delivered"?

The floor is yours.

Update: At first blush, the idea of putting regular ol' folks on stage to tell their personal stories may sound a little cheesy. It wasn't -- those folks were fantastic. A president who puts "Barney Smith over Smith Barney"? Awesome. The nurse from North Carolina who's been voting Republican since Nixon, but who said she can't afford it anymore? Awesome. The woman who became an Obama supporter after fact-checking a smear email? Awesome.

Note to convention organizers: Smart move.

Steve Benen 9:07 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (84)
 
Comments

Is it me or is CNN somewhat less bad than usual tonight?

Posted by: Jim Pharo on August 28, 2008 at 9:10 PM | PERMALINK

Is it me or is CNN somewhat less bad than usual tonight?

Posted by: Jim Pharo on August 28, 2008 at 9:10 PM | PERMALINK

Jim,

The second commenter seems to agree with you.

Posted by: doubtful on August 28, 2008 at 9:16 PM | PERMALINK

Wait. Hilzoy is a girl?

Is she married?

Posted by: John O on August 28, 2008 at 9:17 PM | PERMALINK

Wait. Hilzoy is a girl?

Is she married?

Posted by: John O on August 28, 2008 at 9:18 PM | PERMALINK

Is there an echo in here? :)

Posted by: doubtful on August 28, 2008 at 9:19 PM | PERMALINK

Wonder should have performed "You Haven't Done Nothin'" (originally an anti-Nixon song) and dedicated it to Bush.

We are amazed but not amused
By all the things you say that you'll do
Though much concerned but not involved
With decisions that are made by you

But we are sick and tired of hearing your song
Telling how you are gonna change right from wrong
'Cause if you really want to hear our views
"You haven't done nothin'"!

Posted by: Speed on August 28, 2008 at 9:19 PM | PERMALINK

I'm calling this one early:

Round 4 goes to Baracky with a TKO...
This is stellar stuff.

Best. Convention. Ever.

Posted by: ROTFLMLiberalAO on August 28, 2008 at 9:21 PM | PERMALINK

Anyone else watching MSNBC? Tom Brokaw just went on for 10 minutes about how the republican'ts are going to be able to exploit the skycam shot of the stage at Mile High as proof of Barack's self-aggrandizement. Finally, KO asked him what the hell he was talking about, and Brokaw basically acknowledged that he was just repeating what he was hearing from his repub sources.

This is what we're up against.

Posted by: McCain Unable on August 28, 2008 at 9:28 PM | PERMALINK

Anyone else watching MSNBC? Tom Brokaw just went on for 10 minutes about how the republican'ts are going to be able to exploit the skycam shot of the stage at Mile High as proof of Barack's self-aggrandizement. Finally, KO asked him what the hell he was talking about, and Brokaw basically acknowledged that he was just repeating what he was hearing from his repub sources.

This is what we're up against.

Posted by: McCain Unable on August 28, 2008 at 9:29 PM | PERMALINK

CNN is by far better tonight than all the other nights together.

Did you catch the crowd watching at Times Square?

GObama!
BarackTheVote!
My mamma's voting for Obama!
Sweet Home AlObama!
Ready to Lead WELL!

Awesome signs in CO tonight!

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 9:30 PM | PERMALINK

Too many generals.

Posted by: Brojo on August 28, 2008 at 9:30 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, McCainUnable, what was up with that? Constantly repeating Republican talking points?
Very disappointing.

I liked Gore's speech but I think he went way toooo fast.

Posted by: phoebes in santa fe on August 28, 2008 at 9:31 PM | PERMALINK

Stevie Wonder with Take 6 (I believe) were completely awesome. That's just the opener.
Whomever the RNC gets is gonna be the musical equivalent of Trucknutz.

Posted by: Mike B-C on August 28, 2008 at 9:32 PM | PERMALINK

'scuse me?

Posted by: McCain Unable on August 28, 2008 at 9:32 PM | PERMALINK

One word: CSPAN.

That is all.

Posted by: GuyFromOhio on August 28, 2008 at 9:34 PM | PERMALINK

Ohio Guy: I DVR CSpan and watch MSNBC. That way I get to hear the gasbags in real time and watch the speeches I missed later.

Damn, I need a life, don't I?

Posted by: McCain Unable on August 28, 2008 at 9:37 PM | PERMALINK

Supposition: hilzoy is married.

This makes a difference ... how?

Posted by: GuyFromOhio on August 28, 2008 at 9:37 PM | PERMALINK

If one more person reminds me that my fucking hotel SUCKS I am going to spit!

Quit rubbing it in!!!

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 9:37 PM | PERMALINK

CNN definitely better. I can't stand to listen to KO or CM for a fourth night. Plus CNNers are talking over speakers significantly less.

Posted by: fldem on August 28, 2008 at 9:39 PM | PERMALINK

McCain Unable, where are you? You wouldn't be in PA, near Valley Forge, would ya? If so CAN I COME OVER?? I'll bring food and drink!

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 9:40 PM | PERMALINK

Too many generals.

You can never have enough Generals.
It was a brilliant idea.
Kudos to the Obama team.
These guys haven't missed a nuance.

Posted by: ROTFLMLiberalAO on August 28, 2008 at 9:41 PM | PERMALINK

Bless Al Gore for mentioning the war crimes of our government and for actually saying Cheney's name.

Yes, he rushed and his emphasis was odd at points but was still great because he told the truth.

Posted by: clarice on August 28, 2008 at 9:42 PM | PERMALINK

Damn, I need a life, don't I?

I watch CSPAN ("BARNEY!! BARNEY!!") and surf. Discovered nearly too late an aversion, nay, a HIDEOUS ALLERGIC REACTION to gasbaggery that causes me to throw things at the tv.

CSPAN has lowered my blood pressure, and helped me cut costs for replacement electronics. Thank you, CSPAN!

Posted by: GuyFromOhio on August 28, 2008 at 9:43 PM | PERMALINK

Born in the USA. And republicans suck.

Posted by: sidtitious on August 28, 2008 at 9:44 PM | PERMALINK

Joanne: You're so sweet to offer, but I'm in northern CA. If you're ever in the neighborhood, though, don't be a stranger. I'll even provide the refreshments.

Posted by: McCain Unable on August 28, 2008 at 9:44 PM | PERMALINK

McCain Unable: Anyone else watching MSNBC?

Watching MSNB's Internet feed for days now... no interruptions, no talking heads, just the straight video. Same is available on CSPAN; no reason to put up with the BS if you don't want to.

Posted by: has407 on August 28, 2008 at 9:47 PM | PERMALINK

This night changes US politics forever.

Posted by: ROTFLMLiberalAO on August 28, 2008 at 9:47 PM | PERMALINK

Still, i am not a fan of leaving McCain so free of real personal attacks. McCain is not an honorable person and all these "i am friends with john" comment prefacing the speeches just dont do it for me.

Posted by: gaucho politico on August 28, 2008 at 9:48 PM | PERMALINK

I switched cable providers after Cox eliminated C-SPAN2 from their basic package.

Posted by: Brojo on August 28, 2008 at 9:49 PM | PERMALINK

I started crying when Born in the USA started playing. I wish wish wish Bruce Spingsteen had actually been there. Stevie Wonder was great.

It's just plain weird how emotional I feel about this nomination. Who knew I cared about this shit even as I criticize it all the time???

orange. oops. forgot.

oh--and Steve--I was so happy to see that you noted Del tonight.

Posted by: nicole on August 28, 2008 at 9:50 PM | PERMALINK

Sorry to bring this up. No spitting.

But the Dem webcast is the best.

You can tune later and watch the Kerry speech and others I bet.

Posted by: TCG on August 28, 2008 at 9:54 PM | PERMALINK

Everytime Al Gore speaks, I want to cry. The human race is moving so close to annihilation from Climate Change and Bush has done nothing but make it worse.

Posted by: MNPundit on August 28, 2008 at 9:54 PM | PERMALINK

This convention is spliced together by utter geniuses...

Utter. Freaking. Geniuses.

The clips of Barack have been shown at perfectly place intervals... building building building the tension of the plot.

The crowd is totally gassed and jazzed.
It is all skyrockets from here on out.
Unbelievable.

Posted by: ROTFLMLiberalAO on August 28, 2008 at 9:57 PM | PERMALINK

Who is Dick Durbin? It's time for Obama now. Is he actually going to do the introduction? The MSNBC live video feed is blessedly commentary free.

Posted by: nicole on August 28, 2008 at 9:59 PM | PERMALINK

The Republicans have scheduled Yanni. He will perform, speak, and compose 20% of the audience. And he's on the short list.

Posted by: alibubba on August 28, 2008 at 10:01 PM | PERMALINK

"I’m not talking about blind optimism here -- the almost willful ignorance that thinks unemployment will go away if we just don’t think about it, or the health care crisis will solve itself if we just ignore it. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about something more substantial. It’s the hope of slaves sitting around a fire singing freedom songs; the hope of immigrants setting out for distant shores; the hope of a young naval lieutenant bravely patrolling the Mekong Delta; the hope of a millworker’s son who dares to defy the odds; the hope of a skinny kid with a funny name who believes that America has a place for him, too."

Posted by: GuyFromOhio on August 28, 2008 at 10:02 PM | PERMALINK

nicole, I know just how you feel.

I have broken out in tears more times than I ever could have imagined.

Sure, Hillary with her story about the soldier who asked for help for others before him, and the woman whose bald head had her name on it were tear jerkers, but the pride I FINALLY, after eight long, awful years, feel again for my country, has brought tears to my eyes, for four days now, more than I ever imagined possible.

God bless America and every American citizen. And God bless Obama for reinvigorating my pride in my country.

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 10:04 PM | PERMALINK

Hi, all. The best feed for days has been at demconvention.com. A couple quick downloads and you get the best hi def stream I have ever seen. Support for Firefox and IE.

As for tonight, I have been sitting here watching, nearly in tears. When I see those folks in Denver dancing and laughing and playing, I think, They look like me, my friends, my people.

Has our time finally come?

I also notice in myself an urge to hold back, to not get too excited much, and I realize, at a deeper level than ever before, even deeper than when I went to our County convention as an Obama delegate, why the theme of hope is so central to this campaign.

GOTTA GO! Obama'a on stage now.

Posted by: on August 28, 2008 at 10:15 PM | PERMALINK

How cool was it to see Stevie Wonder perform, "Signed, Sealed, Delivered"?

Someone at FoxNews is sure to say that it was a) a slap in the face to Stevie Wonder to have to be the fall back guy after Bruce and 2) the Springsteen's failure to show was a sign the Obama is just not ready to lead. If he can't get The Boss to show up for him, who else can't he get?

Posted by: Martin on August 28, 2008 at 10:16 PM | PERMALINK

Hi, all. The best feed for days has been at demconvention.com. A couple quick downloads and you get the best hi def stream I have ever seen. Support for Firefox and IE.

As for tonight, I have been sitting here watching, nearly in tears. When I see those folks in Denver dancing and laughing and playing, I think, They look like me, my friends, my people.

Has our time finally come?

I also notice in myself an urge to hold back, to not get too excited much, and I realize, at a deeper level than ever before, even deeper than when I went to our County convention as an Obama delegate, why the theme of hope is so central to this campaign.

GOTTA GO! Obama'a on stage now.

Posted by: snartly on August 28, 2008 at 10:18 PM | PERMALINK

Notice how his eyes are positioned 30 degrees up and alternate 45 degrees to the left and right during the complicated speaking parts. This is like Karaoke. He is a very good speaker.

Posted by: Brick Oven Bill on August 28, 2008 at 10:20 PM | PERMALINK

yes to CSPAN......can we get rid of commentators permanently? except for the ones on this blog? BTW, can the Flip-Flop list be posted on your new site, Steve B? as opposed to some of the ads for repugnant things?

Posted by: withay on August 28, 2008 at 10:21 PM | PERMALINK

ENOUGH!

Posted by: on August 28, 2008 at 10:23 PM | PERMALINK

Who is Dick Durbin? -nicole

The senior Senator from Illinois and one of Barack's mentors. Quite a reliably progressive voice. One of the best.

Posted by: doubtful on August 28, 2008 at 10:24 PM | PERMALINK

Look at all those people. Speeches, and cheering, and all those reporters! Just disgraceful! What depths of depravity will the Democrat party sink to next? Soon they'll be demanding a fair election!

Posted by: GOPer on August 28, 2008 at 10:25 PM | PERMALINK

I'm reading the prepublished transcript as he's speaking, and he's just doing it absolutely perfectly. Awesome.

Posted by: Bill Arnold on August 28, 2008 at 10:27 PM | PERMALINK

Update: At first blush, the idea of putting regular ol' folks on stage to tell their personal stories may sound a little cheesy. It wasn't -- those folks were fantastic. A president who puts "Barney Smith over Smith Barney"? Awesome. The nurse from North Carolina who's been voting Republican since Nixon, but who said she can't afford it anymore? Awesome. The woman who became an Obama supporter after fact-checking a smear email? Awesome.

But, NO BALLOONS! At least, so I've heard. What kind of a convention is it, without balloons??? Since there's no ceiling to let them go down from, every attendee should have been handed a couple and let them fly *up*, after Barack's speech.


nicole, @21:59,
Dick Durbin is the other Senator from Illinois and one of the early Obama cheerleaders.

Posted by: exlibra on August 28, 2008 at 10:31 PM | PERMALINK

mccain is so screwed... if he goes outdoors to give a speech of this magnitude in minnesota, he'll be in canada...

Posted by: andyvillager on August 28, 2008 at 10:31 PM | PERMALINK

I used to supplement my meager earnings as a lounge musician. The owner was a drunken judo expert from Korea. The food was really good until about seven, and then it rapidly got worse. In any case, the spoken word, from the heart, especially when put to music, is a powerful experience for the person delivering it.

Six years later, I ran into a client at a casino who had extra tickets to Fleetwood Mac and we went. It was really good. The guitar player guy from California (Buckingham?)was spectacular. Stevie Nicks was pretty good too and we enjoyed the concert. We roamed around to the rear of the band to check out Nick during the last song. We saw past Nick and Stevie was reading from a Karaoke screen. It was kind of a let-down for me.

Posted by: Brick Oven Bill on August 28, 2008 at 10:35 PM | PERMALINK

Obama is fabulous. This speech will be famous.
Enough "red meat" to satisfy we Dems.

Posted by: phoebes in santa fe on August 28, 2008 at 10:55 PM | PERMALINK

Wow.

I have a feeling that the Good Reverend is smiling down from Heaven right now.

"Only in America"

Posted by: 2Manchu on August 28, 2008 at 10:59 PM | PERMALINK

Good old Britt Hume. Just said "Barack Hussein Obama".

If I could kick him in the nuts while at the same time smash a 2-by-4 embedded with rusty railroad spikes against his head, through my TV, I would.

I really would

Posted by: 2Manchu on August 28, 2008 at 11:02 PM | PERMALINK

Stunning. I am near speechless.

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 11:05 PM | PERMALINK

Well done, Senator Obama. Well done.

Thank you.

Posted by: GuyFromOhio on August 28, 2008 at 11:06 PM | PERMALINK

Stunning. I am near speechless.

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 11:06 PM | PERMALINK

I do believe I heard Chris Matthews choke up.

Posted by: Bey on August 28, 2008 at 11:07 PM | PERMALINK

I am so glad I stayed awake for that.

My favorite line: "I've got news for you, John McCain. We ALL put our country first." And it was delivered with the only threatening look I have ever seen him give, and probably the last one we will ever see from him again. If you're only going to give that look once, I can't think of a better way to use it.

Posted by: PJ on August 28, 2008 at 11:11 PM | PERMALINK

2Manchu, @23:02

It's his name. The more we shy away from it, as if there was something shameful about it, the sillier we look. It's when people "forget" to put Barack in front of "Hussein" that I get pissed off.

I always give John Sidney McBush the courtesy of using his *full* name, instead of shortening it to just Sidney McBush.

Broke my 1-hr-a-year rule and watched the last 20-or-so minutes. Speeches just aren't my cup o'T, I guess. But DH was impressed by the crowd :)

Posted by: exlibra on August 28, 2008 at 11:13 PM | PERMALINK

PJ: bill kristol LOVED that. that was a brilliant play.

Andrea mitchell has nothing bad to say

Posted by: eric on August 28, 2008 at 11:14 PM | PERMALINK

And from Fox (yes, I watch so you don't have to):
NPR dolt: short on detail. Not emotional enough. not enough about MLK. Obama won't be in office in 10 years. who does Obama think he's fooling?
Kristol: great speech! (huh???) Holy shit! Kristol has nothing but praise for EVERYTHING Obama said.
Fox bimbo: worn out ideas and ideas of the past (huh???). staged in CO for CO voters. crowd didn't cheer really. like the amile that doesn't reach the eyes (my ed. note)
Fox male bimboy: same liberal shit. business community will run away from Obama. He was too mean to McCain

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 11:14 PM | PERMALINK

That was incredible. More than ever, I feel inspired to actively work towards victory in November. Not just a Democratic victory, but a victory for our country, for our world. We are at a turning point in history. Let's fall on the right side of the future by electing Obama.

Posted by: Stacy6 on August 28, 2008 at 11:15 PM | PERMALINK

Jo

You do know that the Fox guys are lying to you.

The key is to see how much work they put into it.

Posted by: TCG on August 28, 2008 at 11:18 PM | PERMALINK

America, it's now up to you.

Posted by: beep52 on August 28, 2008 at 11:20 PM | PERMALINK

Krypthammer: business owners will run from Obama. He spoke to Reagan democrats.

That guy looks like death. Go on, dude, it's ok to let go. Death becomes you.

And TCG...Fox lies? Really?? :-)

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM | PERMALINK

lol. I know who Dick Durbin is. It's just when you're all gassed and ready for the moment--Dick Durbin seems a nameless nuisance--a fly to be swatted away while waiting for Obama to take the stage. Not rational I know--I'm sure it was a fine piece of politics to have him do the intro--and quite possibly he did a great job. Guess who wasn't paying attention?

Oh dear--no critical thinking cap tonight. It was wonderful. I thought I saw Obama choking up as he left the stage with everyone.

Fireworks are *way* better than balloons.

Obama speaks to many important issues--but I'm always left with that call to action--that it really is each individual's responsibility and challenge to work to bring about this change, this stride forward as a country. Or as humans.

Posted by: nicole on August 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM | PERMALINK

WHERE is ZELL

ZELL where are U?

Posted by: TCG on August 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM | PERMALINK

What moves me so much is watching him with Michelle and his kids. He is so genuine and the love he has for Michelle is palpable. Did you caatch the repeated kisses to her temples? A simple loving gesture. And I loved it.

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 11:29 PM | PERMALINK

Jo

The fox guys lie to you.

its like foreplay.

If they don't put the work into RESPECTFUL lie, they don't respect you.

Posted by: on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM | PERMALINK

Rove: personal attacks on McCain. Obama is the one who is attacking becasue HE is the one with no specifics. He wants details: details he says! He wants weekly town halls.

Fuck you, Rove. I can't wait to see you before Congress, you uber criminal.

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM | PERMALINK

McCain camp says Obama speech was misleading.

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM | PERMALINK

Massively Cool

The fox Split Screen was not working.

Karl Rove was spouting BS,

While Britt was making facial gestures out of a Planet of the Apes Movie.

Mass Cool.

Posted by: on August 28, 2008 at 11:36 PM | PERMALINK

The “ordinary Janes/Joes” was more than cheesy; it illustrated the ignorance, delusion or self-delusion of many people who pull the “D” lever while ignoring that:
1. Biden (and the Slickster) started the process of shipping their jobs overseas with support of NAFTA, then the WTO.
2. If not Smith Barney, Goldman Sachs is for Obama and not Barney Smith.

Posted by: SocraticGadfly on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM | PERMALINK

TCG, uhm...is that like promising to only put the head of it in? :-)

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM | PERMALINK

Socratic Gadfly, do you ever ask questions or do you just spew bullshit? I have only seen the latter but never the former.

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 11:41 PM | PERMALINK

SocraticGadfly-- do you ever get tired of seeing fault in everything that everyone says or does? It must be absolutely exhausting to be you.

Posted by: zoe from pittsburgh on August 28, 2008 at 11:42 PM | PERMALINK

Jo

I think those doods rely on people being gullible and taking advantage of trust.

I make no promises.........on promises.

I will crash now. Promises or not.

Good night.

Posted by: TCG on August 28, 2008 at 11:48 PM | PERMALINK

exlibra,

I think Hume did say "Hussein Obama" before correcting himself with "Barack Hussein Obama".

I shouldn't get upset over the use of "Hussein" when someone speaks of Obama, because it is his middle name, and it is a name that he nor anyone else should to be ashamed of.

It's just that I know Britt Hume and the others like him are trying to use it as a derogatory expression.

I wish I could ask Britt or others like him, on the air: "You say 'Barack Hussein Obama', but not "John Sidney McCain'. Why is that? Why is it more important for your viewers to be reminded of Senator Obama's middle name, but not Senator McCain's?"

Anyway, thanks for keeping me grounded, exlibra. Sometimes my Irish blood gets the best of me.

Not that there's anything wrong with being Irish:)

Posted by: 2Manchu on August 28, 2008 at 11:51 PM | PERMALINK

Nigt TCG and all. Can't wait to see the new comments in the AM. Sweet dreams all!

Posted by: MsJoanne on August 28, 2008 at 11:56 PM | PERMALINK

Britney Hume said what?

(The Dems should consistently call McCain "John Dubya McCain" until Faux News complains so often, it sticks.)

Posted by: alibubba on August 29, 2008 at 12:24 AM | PERMALINK

I agree with gaucho politico. I don't understand why democratic politicians have to keep mentioning that McCain served his country honorably, and that they are/were friends with him. Are they trying to do some reverse psychology?

Don't they realize that 'room temperature IQ republicans' only hear that McCain was a war hero? Obviously the Democrats agree, so what is the problem then?

I sure hope they drop that line already. McCain was no war hero. He spent barely 20 hours that qualify as actual combat missions in the theater, which is nothing compared to Army/Marines who spend days, weeks, months, even years on the ground.

McCain graduated at the bottom of his class, was an average pilot at best (crashing a few planes in the process, could never measure up to the heroic service of his father and grandfather, and managed to get shot down over a sector that had been considered 'relatively' safe for flights (as in no planes shot down for several months.)

In other words: not all that much different from George Bush. Legacy admittance at ivy league universities, party animals, unable to measure up to parent's expectations, ... and the list goes on.

Posted by: on August 29, 2008 at 12:26 AM | PERMALINK

The Richardson line about the shoes and flip flops needs a visual. The cheap flip flops will trivialize his pandering in a very memorable way. Calling YouTube!

Posted by: nat on August 29, 2008 at 1:35 AM | PERMALINK

Best moment of the entire convention: "We need a president who puts Barney Smith before Smith Barney."

Posted by: rolbot on August 29, 2008 at 2:00 AM | PERMALINK

Dems can't diss McCain's POW/military background because one of the memes the Repugs love to hit on all the time is that Dems hate the troops. That will just give them more fodder...

Posted by: Always hopeful on August 29, 2008 at 12:23 PM | PERMALINK
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