My advice for Sarah:

Hun, don't even THINK about wearing heels.

Sarah Palin has more executive experience than John McCain, I believe.

FAIL!

Almost as bad as "Governor of the nation's largest state."

I'm seeing the high-faluting, breathlessly uttered "executive experience" phrase popping up everywhere also and every time I ask - "so what is McCain's executive experience since it's so important?" I get no answer.

It's a tossup on balancing experience vs.judgment. On the campaigns, I think Obama has shown something remarkable (with some failed steps, also, of course) and in the biggest challenge on picking a Veep, did the thing that was good for the country. Contrast tthat with the increasingly odd looking choice of Palin, and between these two people, the pick is clear for me.

Hope is one of the most powerful organizing tools in anyone's arsenal. Barack Obama is where he today because he staked out the hope candidacy, and everyone who hopes came to the call of his candidacy.

The more cynically minded seasoned pols and pundits of our bodypolitik can't pick his success up on their radar screens because they have lost the ability to hope we can all do the right thing. We 2008 electorate know better! -Kevo

Hilz, very true on the chief of staff issue. Both Carter and Clinton struggled to learn this.

Let Palin CAMPAIGN for 18 months, nay near 3 years (the breadth ignored by the media) whilst holding her SENATE seat, debate her party superiors and receive the presidential nomination by getting over 19 million votes from the American people, and then we might say she is nearly Baracks equivalent (she still wouldn't posses half of his faculties for discourse or management).

But look at me, I'm a nobody bloodless stupid rebel citizen and I know this much. Are they trying to make Alaska the next Texas or what? and by paying off their own residents no less. Somebody stop them. duhr. GUNS. DUHR. Christ.

On the McCain Report, Michael Goldfarb writes that Sarah Palin "has more executive experience than Barack Obama and Joe Biden put together", a point that, by some strange coincidence, has popped up all over the conservative blogs.

She also has more executive experience than McCain does -- when are the conservative blogs going to start calling for the ticket to be flip-flopped?

And if they backtrack to talk about McCain's Senate experience, we can point out that he's only been there 21 years -- Biden's been there for 36.

I'm starting to see this argument a lot, where running a campaign, even though it's debateable whether a candidate runs a campaign or is a client of his campaign manager, somehow constitutes proven executive experience. But hey, when it's all you've got, you have to use it.

So I take it that if Obama loses in November, that proves his incompetence and disqualifies him from running again anytime soon?

Does this also not prove that Clinton is incompetent? Or did it prove that Mark Penn was incompetent and David Axelrod and Plouffe are brilliant?

Would Clinton have won with James Carville? I say almost certainly.

Obama built an organization of 1000+ in 18 months, and it runs perfecly. Palin took control of an existing organization only 6 times larger 18 months ago, and she is already in trouble for firing her high ranking staff for personal reasons.

As you say, I'll take Obama's proven skill as an executive over Palin's any day of the week.

[...] a point that, by some strange coincidence, has popped up all over the conservative blogs. -- Hilzoy

Yeah; verily, a *very strange* coincidence.

Some 40--45 yrs ago, I went trough a sci-fi period in my reading. Mostly Russian and Polish stories with a dash of US and UK ones (as long as they were PO - politically innocuous). One of the unifying factors in all of them was this fashionable fascination with "pod thinking" where,
basically, you had a community consisting of many individual bodies. But, they all shared a single brain. You plugged into it, to recharge your thinking capacity.

In the Polish and Russian stories, that was considered to be "a good thing" -- the individuals could communicate with one another with great ease, the better to better their worlds. For some -- obscure to my teenage self -- reason, the Western writers concentrated on praising the "mavericks" -- the bodies which tried to *avoid* being plugged into and recharged from the common "brain battery".

It has been *very* reassuring to me, to rediscover the communist world of my youth and teens in the 2001-2008 USA; I feel almost at home now.

I suspect that the McCain camp has chosen Palin in order to set her up and use her. She's served her purpose by taking the spotlight away from Obama's acceptance speech (thereby possibly blunting his post-convention bounce) and by making McCain look "progressive." But I suspect that within a few weeks, she'll (be forced to) resign from the ticket because of the ethics investigation she's facing in Alaska and because of her inexperience. McCain will look "ethical" because he's distancing himself from her ethics problems, and he'll be able to once again highlight the alleged inexperience of Obama. The McCain team will choose a new (more "traditional") VP candidate, will get a new round of media attention for that, and will be able to avoid the need to address any important, substantive issues in the campaign.

VOTE DIGBY-CLARK-2008---VOTE THE INTERNET you've known them both for years.

Adam, Sweetness, it's one of many things *we've got*. You might have noticed had you unstuck that vacuous head from that fine ass of yours.

Now you stop drinkin' and bloggin', Son.

Bad for your health.

God Bless America! And God Bless His Beautiful Son, The Next President of the USA, BARACK OBAMA, Sent To Save All Believers From The Darkness Of Evil and Sin. And Sarah Palin.

Amen.

several have made this point already, so just to reinforce it: so insane are these propagandistic hacks on the right that they quite honestly don't see that this "executive" argument - one of the most tediously hackish pieces of crap imaginable all by itself - does not reflect favorably on mccain.

it's just astonishing: these people's brains just don't process very well.

According to the Republican leader of the Alaskan state Senate, Palin not only isn't qualified to be VP, she isn't qualified to be Alaska's governor. She shouldn't get credit for experience if she isn't seen as successful even by members of her own party.

Atticus,

I half suspect you may be right. But then, wouldn't that focus unwanted attention on the quality of the McCain campaign's VP selection process? Whatever the pretext for her dropping off -- and frankly, I think care for her kids is more likely than the ethical thing -- doesn't it prompt the question of whether McCain could have foreseen such a development? And that prompts the questions about process, with answers like, "Twice" and "The first time at the state fair; the second, just before selecting her."

I just don't see how that can be good for McCain, but then I always underestimate the subservience of the media to Publican causes.

So I take it that if Obama loses in November, that proves his incompetence and disqualifies him from running again anytime soon?

Uh, yeah, that's how it works. The only two people I can think of who ran unsuccessful presidential campaigns and managed to come back and win presidential campaigns are Grover Cleveland and Richard Nixon. Unless Al Gore and John Kerry ran again this year and just plumb forgot to tell anyone.

Does this also not prove that Clinton is incompetent? Or did it prove that Mark Penn was incompetent and David Axelrod and Plouffe are brilliant?

It proves what every corporate employee knows: a CEO is only as good as his/her employees. If a CEO hires bad employees who do a crappy job, the company goes down the tubes. If the CEO hires good employees who do a great job, the CEO is a genius.

There is something to be said for being able to hire well, especially if you're going to be heading up a large organization that you're not going to be able to micro-manage. That was one of the reasons I voted for Obama over Clinton -- his campaign seemed to be running much more smoothly and professionally than hers was.

McCain? He's the CEO who hires the MBA intern to be the Chief Financial Officer for the company because he likes the cut of his jib. Sure, it'll tank the company, but you didn't expect him to make that choice, now did you?

Its funny to see the right wing spin-miesters try to make something out of the worst political blunder in decades.

I just wanted to say that I was the one who wrote this message.

Please take a look at local wisdom from Alaska on Sara Palin. Very informative and "dry funny"

http://mudflats.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/what-is-mccain-thinking-one-alaskans-perspective/

Please take a look at local wisdom from Alaska on Sara Palin. Very informative and "dry funny"

http://mudflats.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/what-is-mccain-thinking-one-alaskans-perspective/

Come on, you know they are right on this one. How different can the Wassila, Alaska, city council be from the USA? I'm sure - certain, in fact -- that the executive experience she garnered as mayor of a town of 5,000 people directly transfers to the office of Vice President of the world's most powerful nation. If any bowling alley in DC has a zoning issue, she will be ALL over it. Kids karate-chopping the fences near the hardware store? She will OWN their asses. Grandpa McCain won't even have to go out on the lawn to yell at those damn kids.

The "executive experience" wheeze was devised to justify W over Gore.

That worked out well.

Equal Opportunity Cynic -- I wonder if she might be in on the deal.

Also, with Palin, it's hard for Obama/Biden to criticize her without causing an outcry. Perhaps they're waiting for them to screw up -- cause the fake outcry, at which point Palin "decides" for her family and the good of her country that she must step down -- and McCain appoints Lieberman or Romney just before the convention that they so thoughtfully delayed in sympathy of the hurricane victims.

And -- they blame the whole mess on Obama/Biden for being sexists.

Reagan ran until he won.

IIRC, it was David Geffen who asked Obama about his executive experience when Obama declared he was running for president and Obama said something to the effect of "Watch how I run my campaign."

Prescient, no? Obama has more than proven himself. I don't expect that to change over the next 8-9 weeks.

IIRC, it was David Geffen who asked Obama about his executive experience when Obama declared he was running for president and Obama said something to the effect of "Watch how I run my campaign."

Prescient, no? Obama has more than proven himself. I don't expect that to change over the next 8-9 weeks.

I suspect that if you polled the fortune 500 companies and asked them, based on executive ability, who they would want... Palin or Obama? There would be 500 votes for Obama and none for Palin.
Just because someone drives 200,000 miles a year as a bus driver does not qualify them for NASCAR.

It is true that some of the skills needed by the President are closer to those needed by a governor than those of a legislator. However, most of the issues the President needs to deal with are ones that a senator is going to be much more prepared for than a governor.

The main reason that governors have been better at getting elected than senators in the last century or so is not relevant experience but lack of a voting record. It is just too easy to focus on particular votes on wedge issues or to use votes on ammendments and different versions of bills to portray a senator as a 'flip-flopper'.

I forget: what year was Abraham Lincoln elected governor of Illinois?

Ditto for John F. Kennedy in Massachusetts?

God Bless America! And God Bless His Beautiful Son, The Next President of the USA, BARACK OBAMA, Sent To Save All Believers From The Darkness Of Evil and Sin. And Sarah Palin.

Amen.
----
You know that really doesn't offend anyone, right? Republicans are the party that take marching orders, it's been documented for decades, many take pride in that fact. Now, it is used to insult someone who cast a vote? I don't get it, but okay.

The bottom line of this discussion about experience is that an entire country had the opportunity and privilege to vote for and nominate our candidate.

The republicans, well, not quite half way through they were stuck with a horrible candidate that many are unhappy with and can't trust - and that senile old man picked Jennifer Palin.

If you think her addition to the ticket was a wise move for a man that is expected to die in just 3 years and 363 days from today, well go for it!

The main reason that governors have been better at getting elected than senators in the last century or so is not relevant experience but lack of a voting record. It is just too easy to focus on particular votes on wedge issues or to use votes on ammendments and different versions of bills to portray a senator as a 'flip-flopper'.
------
Likely at least partially explains Obama's ascension.

ThatGuy, I wouldn't exactly say Obama's four years in the Senate "explains" his ascension, partial or otherwise, but it did make the path to the presidential nomination (slightly) easier.

It's pretty obvious, though, that if Obama wasn't fighting the "inexperience" tag, he'd be fighting the "flip-flopper" meme.

As others have pointed out, Obama did have something HRC didn't have: a clear statement against the Iraq War in '02. She voted for the war and it probably cost her the nomination. He showed better judgment than someone with years of DC insider experience.

For two days we have been debating Sarah Palin. Frankly, I have yet to see any evidence that picking her was game changing. She is a woman. So what, America is used to women. Geri Ferraro was novel. This woman is a re-run.

Have you heard of Hillary supporters flocking to her. Me neither.

The best you can say is she is going to energize the evangelical base. So what, that just means McCain loses by less. He still loses. Maybe you haven't noticed but the evangelical politicians are in decline both in and out of Republican party. They can't rally the troops like they could as recently as 2004. Too many scandals. A lot of mega churches have moved on to an outreach (good works) approach. By ignoring Darfur and especially Katrina the Republicans alienated a lot of those outreach based churches.

If you want something to think about, just remember Kathleen Sebelius is the two term governor of Kansas. The evangelicals are a pain in the ass for a lot of Republicans.

I say we just keep after John McCain. The guy has piss poor political judgment. So do the Rovettes. They insist on fighting the last war. Let them.

In choosing Palin it's looking more and more like McCain just listened to what he wanted to hear. This is not a quality we want in a Chief Executive.

In fact, it's a common problem in the modern-day Republican party. GOP leaders have a well-documented history of making expedient, ideologically-driven decisions and then trying to make the results of these decisions conform to reality.

Why didn't tax cuts generate budget surpluses? Because of Democrats and their entitlement programs. Why are family incomes falling in the face of record increases in worker productivity? Because American workers are a lazy bunch of whiners. Why does gas cost so much? Because Democrats won't allow drilling in ANWR and off the Gulf and West Coasts. Why didn't we capture Osama bin Laden when we had the chance and wipe out the Taliban in Afghanistan five years ago? Because IRAQ WAS BUILDING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!

One characteristic we want in a leader is inquisitiveness. Good leaders ask good questions. When you ask the wrong questions you get bad answers that lead to bad decisions.

*

*

The Republicans seem to be adding her years as mayer of Wasilla into her resume of "executive experience". Well, I assume that the mayor of a city with fewer than 10K population is pretty much a parttime job. It really isn't a job that is relevant to anything she will face as VP, let alone as POTUS. But a picture is worth a thousand words, so this photo of Wasilla city hall was found on flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/87119361@N00/319098225

Yes I'm sure that being in charge of an operation being run out of an office in a in what looks like a converted gas station will serve her well in the West Wing.

I haven't read the particular Zogby poll, but that would seem to be an outlier from the polls I have read. Anyway, a bump is to be expected. If it takes them to a 1 point advantage then the Republicans are fucked big time. It tells me the selection isn't a game changer.

In this case the initial reaction was curiosity. When people first encountered her resume they liked her. As she is vetted her favorables are bound to go down.

Among the poll results I have seen she isn't impressing women as much as the Rovettes would have liked.

The flip side to giving evangelicals red meat is that it turns off a lot of mainstream Republicans who are not hot for McCain already. The "disrespect the office of the President" argument works for a lot of those Republicans. McCain's lack of seriousness is already at the core of Obama's argument.

Don't confuse winning a daily news cycle with winning the election. Thirty eight million people watched Obama say "Enough." The reviews were great. I don't think this nomination is going to change that dynamic.

The latest Zogby shows McCain-Palin up by one. Wasn't there supposed to be some sort of Covention bounce especially given the chosen one's speech?

If your use of "chosen one" didn't out you as a moron, the fact that you're citing the Zogby online interactive poll -- the least reliable, most-often-wrong poll out there -- as your authority should certainly show it.

Hey, I see a container of straws over there. Go grasp at them!

The Obama campaign's response should be: "If Executive Experience is the determining factor, then perhaps Senator McCain would like to offer his spot at the top of the ticket to Governor Palin."

JRS, there's a slightly more authoritative polling outfit called the Gallup Poll that has it Obama 49%, McCain 41%.

Executive experience has no predictive value on how well a person will govern as president. Bush had significantly more executive experience as governor of Texas than Palin does as governor of Alaska and yet he is demonstrably the least competent president in modern times and possibly in the history of the nation.

McCain is not the only one taking a big gamble by embracing Sarah Palin as VP. The danger to the entire Conservative Movement is that it threatens to uncover all of them as frauds who care far more about party than country.

What McCain's pick says about the GOP is that -- in time of war and economic uncertainty -- Republicans think the most pressing issues are abortion, stem cell research, "traditional family values" and guns. It's also laughable to think that Republicans think Americans will take them seriously when they offer as an antidote to the corruption that Haliburton-Republicans have brought to Washington is this spunky "reforming" self-described "hokey mom."

To embrace her as thoroughly as conservatives have in order to help McCain get elected means Republicans are really showing what matters most to them. How can we take them seriously after this. This is the most cynical, unserious decision I've seen in my 50 years watching politics. And if conservatives want to spend the next 50 years wandering the political wilderness, then nominating an untested and unknown favorite daughter of Alaska is the way to do it.

I should have said simply having some executive experience as a governor has no predictive value on how well a person will govern as president.

I've made the point of comparing Obama's executive experience with McSame's when talking with McCainiacs and undecideds. Both often make an issue of Obama's lack of experience. I point out that McCain has exactly the same amount of executive experience. He was soldier, not a Commander in Vietnam, and never had a management responsibility in his political career. This usually has little effect until I ask who they think would better adapt to a new set of responsibilities - a 47 year old guy, or a 72 year old guy? Only the McCaniacs pause at the question.

Perhaps running a presidential campaign qualifies as executive experience, but I don't see how that helps Obama's case. His campaign is significantly underperforming expectations. He should have a double-digit lead by now. He has alienated a large segment of the Democratic electorate (HRC fans). His campaign continues to make stupid mistakes, such as their petty and tone-deaf statement on Friday belittling Sarah Palin as a former small-town mayor.

It's true that Obama defeated Clinton, but was that because of his superior skills as an executive? I would argue that Obama represented a much more appealing product, both to the Democratic primary voters and the media. The worst CEO at Coca-Cola will still outperform the best CEO at RC Cola in terms of aggregate results.

John McCain's Wandering Eyes

I don't get the least-experience-since-1908 line -- how is Palin's experience that much different than good ol' Two-Americas-for-two-timers John Edwards, who had been the most successful ambulance chaser in the Southeast before his two years in the Senate? John Kerry hadn't accomplished diddly-squat in 21 years in the Senate, yet he was deemed acceptable due to his 41 days in Viet Nam. Palin knocked off a sitting governor in a party primary, that demonstrates an ability to organize and communicate a need to confront the corruption of her own party -- there was a time when I thought Obama might do something like that too.

John McCain Chooses a Running Mate

Thanks, Hilzoy, for finding the silver lining in our absurd and corrupt two-party system. At least it gives political operatives like Obama some "executive experience."

TK,if the Cold War was still being waged, some would suspect that Bush's inept, not to say traitorous, presidency was the work of the KGB.

Palin may be running for Vice President. While in that position she may have to assume executive duties either temporarily or permanently. So her executive experience is certainly a subject for discussion.

The Vice President's duty under the Constitution is President of the Senate. For that she needs legislative experience. And excercising the veto is an executive function, not a legislative one.

Anybody talked to her about how well she understands legislative procedure?

Adam Herman: I'm not arguing that winning by itself proves competence. It helps -- there is such a thing as command responsibility, and because running an organization depends a lot on things like the quality of your advisors, the way you make decisions, the expectations you set, and other things that are not conducive to the finding of smoking guns, looking at results can help a lot.

However, in this case, we have a lot more to go on. Read the links.

In some cases, one might wonder whether a candidate won only because the field was weak, or some calamity happened to his or her opponents. Not here. One might look at a campaign and see a feuding dysfunctional monstrosity of an organization and wonder: how on earth does it function at all? Not here. We have, in fact, some very decent accounts of how the campaign functions, and they're pretty impressive. Like I said, read the links.

Mnemosyne: The only two people I can think of who ran unsuccessful presidential campaigns and managed to come back and win presidential campaigns are Grover Cleveland and Richard Nixon.

If you include primaries … Ronald Reagan lost to Gerald Ford in 1976.

Obama has demonstrated executive capabilities by running a great campaign and raising piles of money. But then, how about McCain running what everyone says is a poor campaign with half the money and still staying within striking distance. That's impressive.

McCain just displayed his executive experience: he selected Palin. She just displayed her executive experience: she accepted. You don't need to look any further than that.

Now the only question is if the Republican party can put Country First and reject this dynamic duo in the Twin Cities.

Hurricane Gustav may have been the greatest gift for McCain in all of this.

Palin has appeared in public twice, giveing the same speech both times. If she doesn't get a sit-down quickly with a national reporter, live and un-edited the speculation will only become hardened (among the press).

Of course it is deeply insulting to anyone who has ever sought federal office from a real state. Alaska is, according to Palin, not part of the US. She even said that as VP she will raise the profile of Alaska and allow them to give more to the US. What? Other than oil and salmon, I guess we could use some ice.

Obama has successful executive experience because he has run the campaign against the Hillary machine and won? Are you kidding? That campaign was won by Axelrod, Soros, and Soros' band of brothers. Obama was just the puppet.

Obama's executive experience is defined by his participation on the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge which was the only one of the Annenberg education programs which failed to improve public education.

Perhaps was hoodwinked by Ayers and his associated misfits, perhaps not... this is what should be examined in depth.

Obama's participation in that experience showed either 1) a totally misguided perception of what public education should be, or 2) a total lack of ability for leadership and acceptance of responsibility, or 3) collusion in a flow of funds to groups which would enhance his political viability, at the expense of public school students in Chicago. Pick your poison.

Not only does she have executive experience than the entire Dem ticket, she has more accomplishments than Sen. Obama.

The only thing he has ran is his mouth.

Great VP choice Sen. McCain.

Executive experience? Isn't that when people run companies into the ground and then get a bonus for it?

That's Just What I Said

So many experts, so little basis for their expertise.

Let's see if we can keep our prejudices in check until Governor Palin makes the gaffe that all the Obamacans are praying for (in their secular way, of course).

The only thing that is obvious at this point is that the "VP in go-go boots," as Maureen Dowd snarkily named her, has the Democrats seriously rattled.

Stay tuned ...

"On the McCain Report, Michael Goldfarb writes that Sarah Palin "has more executive experience than Barack Obama and Joe Biden put together", a point that, by some strange coincidence, has popped up all over the conservative blogs."

Wow, maybe it's popping up all over because it's true statement that you Obama fans have real trouble responding to without sounding like flipping morons.

So again, tell us all if you believe Palin is too inexperienced to be Vice President, then what justifies your support of the One given his obvious lack of "experience" to be President?

Since your answer will invariably boil down to "he's a liberal who has a good chance of being elected in our lifetimes", forgive the rest of us for not finding that a compelling enough reason to vote for the guy.

Chico, seeing your pissy posts here I gather that had Barack won the Noble Peace Prize, flown to the moon in a rocket he built with his bare hands, AND torn down the fucking Berlin wall with a jackhammer, you still wouldn't be convinced.

Your words are a pathetic waste of perfectly good electrons.

Thank you Ms. Muddled for providing such wonderful evidence to illustrate my point of not being able to respond to my question without sounding like a flipping moron.

Nicely done. lol

Thanks for the belly laugh! Being a candidate whose campaign eats money and craps BS is not executive or leadership experience.

So again, tell us all if you believe Palin is too inexperienced to be Vice President, then what justifies your support of the One given his obvious lack of "experience" to be President?
Posted by: Chicounsel

Obama is qualified to be President because he's good at running for President. Kind of circular...

I've read several references to McCain's executive experience... I will detail it for you here... in 1975, John McCain took assignment of a Naval Squadron... about the same size as an Army Battalion. This was a "Captain" position... the equivalent of an army Colonel or an O-6. This is one step under Brigadier General or a Naval Rear Admiral.

As an Army Officer, I have a pretty good knowledge of what is required of this position. A Squadron consists of many different "Staff" positions... like a cabinet.. that have directors of Personnel, Intelligence, Plans Operations and Training, Logistics, Military Support to Civilian Authorities etc. John McCain was the equivalent of a CEO of that Squadron.

This is an important part of every Officers life, with the majority of military officers never achieving it. It is extremely stressful, time consuming and rewarding. The buck stops with the Squadron Commander, and when his troops "screw up" it often times falls on him or her to take responsibility.

As a Governor, Sarah Palin also has to deal with the same issues as a "President", but on a smaller scale.

The Biden/Obama ticket (note how I listed Biden first, because his 35 years in the Senate obviously should have him at the top of the ticket), has 0 years Executive experience.

And for all of those that have spoken about Biden/Obama's $100 million dollar media campaign, and the executive experience it provides (which to me is totally grasping at straws) tell me this... what tough decisions does the Biden/Obama ticket actually have to make? Tough decisions that will affect an entire population? NONE... other than what tie to wear that day.

Chico -- By the apparent definition of "executive experience" being used in the claims about Palin, she also has more than McCain. So why is he in any serious contention, then?

Of course, as others have pointed out here, G.W. Bush's prior-to-the-presidency "executive experience" trumps them all -- and we've seen how that led to a trashed economy and a sinking of the US in world esteem -- among other small problems.

Why is executive experience being trumpeted so highly? Are McCain and his followers afraid to run on anything else?

Chico, seeing your pissy posts here I gather that had Barack won the Noble Peace Prize, flown to the moon in a rocket he built with his bare hands, AND torn down the fucking Berlin wall with a jackhammer, you still wouldn't be convinced.
Posted by: MsMuddled

It would have been nice to have seen him run some Government organization. Not a campaign populated by the true believers who are motivated enough to volunteer and dedicated to a singular proposition and that can be molded from scratch to the purpose at hand (elect me), a real organization with all the inertia and bloat that it comes with.

In the absence of that, it would have been nice to see him honcho some important legislation through the Senate, to demonstrate his legislative chops. I know, I know, tough to do that when you're just the junior Senator from Illinois, fresh out of the state house.

Good point, and it should be extended to all members of Congress, who commonly are said to lack executive experience. A senator or congressman is effectively the CEO of a small business with a headquarters and branch office(s). The legislator also may be, in effect, a board chairman if (s)he runs a congressional committee or subcommittee. In campaign mode, the board chairman model also applies, as the legislator oversees the work of paid and volunteer staff and outside contractors.

These roles should provide ample evidence of executive skills, or lack of them.

More on 'executive experience' -- and thanks, Hillzoy.

Executives know when to delegate responsibility properly, and know the limits of their own expertise. Obama had a strong staff vetting the VP choice, and came up with a great one, out of several good candidates. McCain didn't even vet his candidate, but pucked her himself -- apparently not even googling her.

The hardest executive decision is often when to fire a popular subordinate who has 'violated the rules.' Despite their skills, Obama fired Susan Rice and 'demoted' Wesley Clark -- even though he knew this would get him criticized.

McCain kept hiring disasters, defending them, and then being forced to fire them -- Hagee, Parsley, Gramm, and how many lobbyists.

And this also brings me to the 'Palin's a head-fake' crowd. Again, McCain may be forced to fire her -- but if he is, it will cost him severely. He'll have to replace her with a Conservative, pro-forced pregnancy, religious woman, and even an obvious choice like the Batty Bachman loses him the 'executive experience' card. Plus, he can't just wave his hands, point to the door, and say "Go"; or pick his own replacement. I don't know the exact rules for the Republican Party, but, technically, the Convention picks the VP. (Theoretically they could turn Palin down, and wouldn't that be a blow to him.)

If she has to be replaced, as Eagleton was, then there would be some mechanism for a sub-group of the RNC to do it -- McGovern didn't pick Shriver. And the in-fighting that would start would be a joy for us Democrats to behold.

No, McCain may be stupid, and egotistical enough to make me wonder if his grandiosity is a symptom of something, but this one was not a 'ploy,' by some evil behind the scenes figure.

And thank YOU Chicounsel for proving that you have nothing but smelly bloat from memorized talking points. Clearly you're educated and have read all the blogs, posts and newspapers. You know who Obama is. You're not here for fact-finding so why on earth should anyone bother engaging you?

Still, it's fun to watch the belligerent defend a dying cause.

It is fascinating to see the number of McCain defenders here rather than in the comments on the piece about the Washington Post pointing out how McCain lies in his ads.

Could we see some of you think about that for a while, please, and respond?

Chico -- By the apparent definition of "executive experience" being used in the claims about Palin, she also has more than McCain. So why is he in any serious contention, then?
Posted by: mossie

Because he's just running against a newbie Senator fresh out of the statehouse.

Why is executive experience being trumpeted so highly?
Posted by: mossie

Because the President is in fact an executive. It was a good argument for Clinton versus Dole back in the day too. Not sure if Carter trumpeted it.

And as Obama pointed out, change needs to come from outside of Washington. Governors fit that bill. Hard to argue in that case that Obama is bringing change, since he is a Senator in Washington.

Could we see some of you think about that for a while, please, and respond?
Posted by: mossie

Getting worried about all the attention put on Obama's glaring lack of experience?

[Ask the McCain blog outreach coordinator for a new target. Your trolling will be deleted here. -Mod]

Nope, SJRSM, not worried at all, because it shows how desperately the McCain people have to keep repeating one line of attack because they they are so vulnerable in so many other areas.

Just like your response, they have the "Look over there, don't look back here (please please please!) take.

So, again -- why are you so worried about McCain's lies that you won't discuss them directly but can only keep saying, "Look over there! Executive experience"? There is surely more to discuss.

McCain’s team changed the rallying cry against Obama from “no experience� to “no executive experience� to give themselves room to move. And in this shell game of words, we are supposed to argue about under which shell the prize is hidden.

There is no prize. The whole exercise is to get everyone’s eyes to follow some kind of activity, as a distraction. Palin or no Palin, McCain is still woefully under-prepared for the 21st century:

He’s without an actionable vision for changing the long-term energy landscape,

He has a tax-plan that will reward the wealthiest 5%, while tossing less than $50 a year in tax breaks to the people at the bottom,

He has no plans to change the medical/health insurance environment where we are the only first world nation to leave its citizens on their own.

And most importantly, McCain is so eager to prove beyond all doubt and beyond healthy reason, that unlike 40 years ago, he can be the VICTOR in a WAR (“I know how to win a war!!!�). So eager to stir the pot to get his war that he is in on the ground floor of trying to instigate one in the Republic of Georgia.

The only thing McCain’s choice of Palin proves is that he doesn’t want us to look at him as closely as we are.

[Ask the McCain blog outreach coordinator for a new target. Your trolling will be deleted here. -Mod]

Thanks Hilzoy. That's a point that occured to me listening to the talking heads this morning.

"The McCain team will choose a new (more "traditional") VP candidate [after Sarah Palin withdraws because of her scandel], will get a new round of media attention for that, and will be able to avoid the need to address any important, substantive issues in the campaign." - Posted by: atticus

"Also, with Palin, it's hard for Obama/Biden to criticize her without causing an outcry. Perhaps they're waiting for them to screw up -- cause the fake outcry, at which point Palin "decides" for her family and the good of her country that she must step down -- and McCain appoints Lieberman or Romney just before the convention that they so thoughtfully delayed in sympathy of the hurricane victims." - Posted by: pol

Better still, get her through the convention (the bait) and then do the switch to LIEberman or Ridge afterwards. What do the convention delegates think they are doing threatening John "Zinger" McC*nt anyway if he wants his friends Joe or Tom on the ticket. They just need to fall in line like good little foot soldiers.

It's John "Zinger" McC*nt's turn to be President damnit!

[Ask the McCain blog outreach coordinator for a new target. Your trolling will be deleted here. -Mod].

[Ask the McCain blog outreach coordinator for a new target. Your trolling will be deleted here. -Mod]

Not one of the simpleminded goons touting Palin's experience has explained what McCain's justification is for being President. He's a Simpleminded Jingo ready to support any Republican war, but that hardly makes him different from some random Republican clown posting on a board. Hell, if the idiot brigade is to be believed McCain should step down now and let Palin take over the ticket.

In the absence of that, it would have been nice to see him honcho some important legislation through the Senate, to demonstrate his legislative chops...

Why? Obama has done nothing to convince the hard-core. Anything he's done or will do is not of real issue to your and yours. You're not here to be persuaded.

It is my opinion, that because blatant racism can't be uttered aloud in this campaign, many of the more articulate naysayers here cower behind the "lack of experience" mantra to conceal the true nature of their discontent.

And there's also an element I see of pure contempt and jealousy for someone who's not only half white but is a very nice looking young man. This fact seems to truly annoy some white guys as it has done through the history of this country. I love to watch this though, and I'm sure Viagra sales are going through the roof as virility comes to the forefront. Interestingly, I noticed a new ad today for a "dating Cialis" that you can take everyday. White women, you've been warned.

If you think Nobama has been managing his own campagin you are sadly mistaken. He has been handled, packaged and presented by the backroom boys at the DNC and his high roller supporters. He is an empty suit with a good grasp of teleprompter use.

Apparently being a Governor matters more to voters than being a Senator in the last 3 elections. 2000 and 2004 - former Governor beats former Senators. 1996 - former governor beats former Senator.

Morgo -- Please do participate in other discussions here, such as those in response to Steve's 11am post about McCain's lying.

The "experience" thing is the Republican's way of distracting from the whole "grasp of world events" thing that neither of their candidates shows. McCain? Still thinks he could have "won" in Vietnam and still thinks that terrorizing the Iraqis was in the best interests of our "National Security." Palin? Doesn't know the first thing about Iraq except that her son is going. Obama, on the other hand showed the good judgment to know that Iraq wasn't a threat to us.

The poster above listing some sinecure given McCain in the aftermath of his POW experience is obviously joking. What he really meant was that John McCain has executive experience because he manages a quarter of a million dollar a year household staff.

Upcoming: CNN is going to have an interview with McCain and his newest beauty queen from down South.

And to think: a hurricane stoled his thunder!

Priceless.

So, again -- why are you so worried about McCain's lies that you won't discuss them directly but can only keep saying, "Look over there! Executive experience"? There is surely more to discuss.
Posted by: mossie

Uhhh, because this thread is about validating Obama's experience? If you don't want to discuss it, you should convince Hilzoy not to post on it.

A few locals have given a good faith effort to discuss it. you and some other's argument consists of "Look! McCain!" which of course in no way changes Obama's experience level.

You'd be best served to stop flinging darts at her experience, which only immediately draws comparisons to Obama, and save your vitriol for the process of how she was chosen and the lack of vetting thereof.

People also forget that Obama, as a senator, runs an organization that has five official offices in DC and the state of Illinois and employs something like 70 full time salaried professionals as well as part-timers, volunteers and interns. Outside of the 18 months that Palin has spent as governor of a rather small state all of her executive experience is as mayor of a small town of about 6000 residents which probably has a staff and budget very similar to the staff and budget that Obama has to manage as senator. It would probably make a very interesting comparison. Then add on the management of his much more extensive campaign organization, which by law has to be completely separate from his legislative organization, and you will probably find that he has considerably more "executive" experience than Palin. But personally I don't think that the experience thing matters that much.

If experience were the be all end all this contest Richardson would have been made POTUS by acclimation. Best resume since Bush I. People should stop obsessing over who has the best resume or who they would rather go out and have a beer with and start concentrating on who will do the better job. Who has the better intelligence (who graduated at the top of his class instead of the bottom) balanced by good common sense (who chose a running mate who is clearly ready to step into the top job instead of who chose a running mate based on short term political gain) and sound judgement (who called Iraq right from the git-go instead of who might have been right about a last ditch strategy).

But if voters did that this election would already be over and the MSM would have to go out and find real news to cover.

The goon squad can't answer the question of POW John's actual qualifications. If one questions Obama's experience it brings into sharp relief the lack of qualifications of his opponent.

I guess the notion of compare and contrast is beyond their simple minds.

The goon squad can't answer the question of POW John's actual qualifications. If one questions Obama's experience it brings into sharp relief the lack of qualifications of his opponent.

I guess the notion of compare and contrast is beyond their simple minds.
Posted by: the

Actually you bring up a good point. By your reasoning, the experience list goes either

Palin
McCain
Biden
Obama

or...

Palin
Biden
McCain
Obama

Either way by your reasoning Obama is stuck in last place. Thanks for pointing it out.

For all the a-holes who are not parodying, but actually are wingnut idiots, Kevin's new blog is at http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum. Go on over there and get the spanking you obviously crave.

People also forget that Obama, as a senator, runs an organization that has five official offices in DC and the state of Illinois and employs something like 70 full time salaried professionals as well as part-timers, volunteers and interns.

Much like the campaign, that organization's purpose is focused on supporting Obama. Different from stepping into a Government in place.

Clinton in 92 ran a great campaign. Remember the stumbling when they took their campaign into the White House? He recovered, but it took time, and it probably didn't hurt that he had been a Governor for 3 terms already.

Let's face it, the kind of moron who would support McCain doesn't care about qualifications. These are the idiots who voted for Bush. These are the idiots who cheered the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis solely for the purpose of electing Republicans at home. These are the people who think that John McCain's history of bombing innocents makes him a hero. To have one of this simpleminded jingoistic goons whine that Obama doesn't have the experience that Palin has is a joke.

Bush is, after nearly eight years of doing the job, manifestly unqualified for the Presidency. He's been an executive. He's just been an appallingly bad one. What we need is competence, knowledge, and judgment. John McCain has none of these things - watch him stumble through an explanation of who we are murdering today in Iraq. He doesn't know. His support of the escalation is because he's a simpleminded bomber pilot - an idiot who thinks that killing more people is always the solution. This is the mark of a sociopath, not a leader.

If the Democrats were running a syphilitic dog, it would still be a better candidate than POW John. As it is, they are running a Harvard Law grad (not some legacy bozo with gentleman's C's), they are running a guy with vision and intelligence.

Amusingly, the obviously deranged SJRSM demonstrates just how fucking stupid his argument is. In no case does this idiot McCain supporter put his own choice above Palin - given that no rational person would give her the Presidency today, the list conclusively demonstrates that it is nonsense.

For all the a-holes who are not parodying, but actually are wingnut idiots, Kevin's new blog is at http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum. Go on over there and get the spanking you obviously crave.
Posted by: Dale

That's funny, because the A-hole posters here would do well to heed KD's words...

That said, it's true that liberals need to be careful about being too rabid in their criticisms of Palin. She's appealing, sensible sounding, familiar, and tough enough to win a governor's race against entrenched opposition. Condescension toward her will not go over well. See M. LeBlanc for more on this.

Hey "the", why'd you change your name from "heavy" anyhow? Trying to distance yourself from your documented stupidity? Or just cowardice?

If they win the election, that is all the experience they need, and all the pundit wannabees on the internet matter not at all.

This is a representative republic, and if you win your election, presto, you are qualified.

For my part, the nation would probably better lead by the first 535 names in the phone book than those elected to congress. Enact term limits, and go the the next 535.

As a final thought, Obama hasn't done that good of a job "managing" his campaign. By all rights, he should be 20 points ahead. Further, Biden will prove to be an awful choice, calling into question his judgment. Lastly, a well-managed campaign doesn't make this mistake...

Just hours after his campaign issued a first statement Friday ripping the addition of Sarah Palin to the Republican ticket, Barack Obama backed away from that statement — or at least its tone — and said that his own campaign had misrepresented him.

Face it folks, the only reason he's the nominee is that Hillary was too chicken to out the Wright video in January. Obama DOES deserve some credit for managing the timing of the video release, but then when the entire media has wet dreams about your candidacy, it isn't like they aren't going to help you.

If the basis of this post - that running a campaign is "executive experience" in it's own right - is a robust idea, (and I think it has some merit) then McCain is clearly the superior choice, as he has done much more with much less, and is slowly but surely winning news cycle after new cycle.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we find out that all the mid 2007 news about his "faltering campaign" and the 2008 news about his campaign being in disarray was carefully crafted in his own strategy room.

I see that this particular goon (SJRSM) doesn't know how to read. I specifically used experience to pivot to qualifications - Obama is (as best as any person not holding the job - excluding the incompetent currently botching it - can be) qualified by virtue of temperament, intelligence, and wisdom. McCain lacks all of these things. He is temperamental, is remarkably ignorant about policy both foreign and domestic, and has shown just how wise he is by picking a running mate who was, until a few weeks ago, claiming ignorance about what it is a Vice President does.

But I guess if you used to murder people from afar, that's all it takes for some people to think you can lead the nation.

heavy, thanks at least for acknowledging your cowardice in changing your name here on the site.

"Would [Hillary] Clinton have won with James Carville? I say almost certainly."

If you really want to go there, we should ask would Carville have won without Perot in the race?
Was it his skill or his luck? Of course everyone would say its his skill now. But that "almost certainty" is no better than I don't know.

I want to thank the moronic SJRSM for the new Republican campaign slogan:

Vote Palin/McCain - because she has the experience to help McCain grow into the job!

heavy,

Way to keep the experience meme going. Here's another couple...

Biden is Cheney to Obama's W.

-or-

On Obama: Ready Sit on Biden's Knee Now

It's as if these idiots can't help themselves - they argue that McCain is less ready than Palin, and now they want to make age jokes:

Palin/McCain: because the geezer needs a nursemaid to run things.

Palin/McCain: with experience at the top of the ticket and age at the bottom, who needs knowledge and ability?

Notice how none of these simpleminded goons has anything positive to say about McCain? That's because there isn't anything positive to say about POW John. His entire resume is 5 1/2 years long and in a foreign country!

Palin/McCain - because after a few years under her he will be qualified to be mayor of a town of 6000!

I doubt if you will read this Scott, but he particular unit McCain commanded is a training unit. He was a Commander. If he had been successful with the squadron he would have been promoted to Captain. He failed the test and found himself out of the Navy looking for work. It was the only unit he ever commanded. He was given the command only because he missed the normal command opportunities that would have preceded being given a squadron because of his time in the POW camp. The Navy decided to give the POW a shot. He washed out.

I'll take a TRUE maverick in Obama, a person with nearly 8 years of state senate experience and 4 years of world-respected Senate experience over Palin who managed a small town and has less than two years experience as a governor (not to mention being a shill for Big Oil). Also, the hubbub about the Bridge to Nowhere? She supported the project until she was told Alaska would have to actually put up some funds for the construction instead of it being fully funded by the federal government. Only then did she supposedly oppose it. So much for standing up to her fellow Republicans!! You call THAT being a maverick? Give me a break!!

Ron Byers stated:

"I doubt if you will read this Scott, but he particular unit McCain commanded is a training unit. He was a Commander. If he had been successful with the squadron he would have been promoted to Captain. He failed the test and found himself out of the Navy looking for work. It was the only unit he ever commanded. He was given the command only because he missed the normal command opportunities that would have preceded being given a squadron because of his time in the POW camp. The Navy decided to give the POW a shot. He washed out."

John McCain Retired as a CAPTAIN!

John McCain retired because of the injuries he sustained as a POW would have made it difficult to continue on in the Navy and advance to Rear Admiral.

John McCain NEVER washed out, and judging by today's standards... would have at least advanced to the equivalent of a 3 star general.

Instead, he chose to run for congress.

If you are going to make blatant lies, at least try to forge some sort of fact out of it.

Ron, you are a liar.

heavy wrote:
It's as if these idiots can't help themselves - they argue that McCain is less ready than Palin
Posted by: heavy

No, that's your argument.

If he had been successful with the squadron he would have been promoted to Captain. He failed the test...

Ron, you just failed the honesty test.

I FIND IT COMICAL THAT RUNNING A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN REMOTELY COMES CLOSE TO THE TRIALS & TRIBULATIONS OF ACTUALLY GOVERNING.

GOV PALIN IS A BOLD MOLD MOVE BY McCAIN, A HAIL MARY MAYBE.

WE WILL HAVE TO SEE HOW SHE DOES IN THE DEBATES.

AS FOR THE SAVIOR PLEASE, THERE HAS NOT BEEN, IS NOT NOW OR SHALL THERE EVER BE ANYTHING REMOTELY USEFUL OR BENEFICIAL TO A SOCIETY THAT COMES FROM THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO.

OBAMA CAN`T BE TRUSTED, TALK ABOUT AN UNKNOWN QUANTITY!

HIS IDEAOLOGY AND ASSOCIATIONS ARE SUSPECT ON SO MANY LEVELS.

I`M STILL NOT SOLD ON McCAIN BUT IM LOOKING THAT WAY.

AS FOR THE MARXIST, BIRDS NEED TO EAT, SAME AS WORMS.

Lance (above) stated that McCain would pick another VP candidate after Palin withdrew from the race because of her 'scandal'...

Obviously doesn't know the facts. I watched CNN for about an hour yesterday as they had their normally 'fair and balanced' talking heads talk about this at length, yet only mentioned the 'investigation' and the 'scandal'...

First it should be know that the individual she fired was the Commissioner of Public Safety (or some such title), responsible for police management among other things. Alaska state law provides that that person serves 'at the pleasure' of the governor, so no reason is required for dismissal. So there is really no issue in this 'issue'. But both Democrats and Republicans in Alaska have lots of 'career polititians' that see her as a problem, so they are doing this to knock her down a peg or two.

But by all means - go ahead and raise the issue, and eventually it will be 'fleshed out' by even the most biased of journalists.

Seems like this officer, who was divorcing Palin's sister, was observed on more than one occasion drinking beer before and during operation of his patrol car. Now I for one don't think that in Alaska this should disqualify one from being a police officer, as cold as it gets, etc.

Seems like this officer also threatened to kill Palin's father when he learned that Palin's father was going to provide funds for Palin's sister to get a good divorce lawyer. Now, given that it happened in Alaska, with the abundance of hunters and that life style, perhaps this also is acceptable for an officer of the law.

But I also draw the line, and therefore agree with Palin's position, that an officer of the law who uses a taser to taser his 10 year old stepson during the period of separation leading to that divorce should not now and should NEVER be allowed back in a police uniform.

So go ahead and dig for the facts, google the keywords around this incident, read the newspaper reports from their newspapers in Alaska, and make up your own mind who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

But for Heaven's sake, whenever you hear comments like this on CNN which they report no underlying facts, you should just laugh out loud at their obvious cheerleading for the candidate which is always the more liberal one in the race.

Perhaps many of our younger citizens are unaware of how truly biased they are. Clinton was elected for his first term in 1992. In 1994 Newt Gingrich did his 'contract with America' thing in the TV Guide. When the polls closed and CNN started reporting the results, within five minutes it was reported by Judy Woodruff and Bernard Schwartz that a 'SEA CHANGE' was occuring, and that the democrats would lose control of both the house and the senate. They had tears in their eyes, and could hardly talk without choking up. No other proof should be needed to convince one of the truly sorry state of affairs at CNN 'news'.

Executive experience? You want to see Palin's vaunted executive experience? Check out the Wasilla city hall:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87119361@N00/319098225
You want to put the occupant of that august institution at a heartbeat's remove from the presidency? The Republicans are not even a serious political party anymore. Reagan would be turning over in his grave. Snort.

Obama is hardly gaining executive exerience from his campaign organization. The bosses are Plouffe, Axelrod and Hildebrand. It was their idea that Obama run in the first place. They make the budget, they run the web site, they coordinate the fundraising, they plan the appearances, they map the strategy, they hire and fire, they take the polls and spend the money. Obama is perhaps the chairman of the board, but not the CEO. As to McCain: his executive experience would be inside the cockpit of an A-4 ground attack fighter. I've never flown an aircraft, but I've been told that flying a jet into combat requires a lot of cool intensity and fast decision making.