don't look a gift horse in the mouth, but where, pray tell, are the examples of john mccain having honor in the first place?

Why explain. Why not hit back?

"John McCain doesn't support having the schools protect kindergarterners from pedophiles."

It has the benefit of being TRUE. John McCain opposes and denigrates Obama's support of the schools teaching students how to recognize and avoid pedophiles. Therefore, "John McCain doesn't support having the schools protect kindergarterners from pedophiles."

[deleted]

When and if McCain gets around to apologizing, I, for one, will say, "In a pig's eye."

I have to say that I'm proud of Obama and his campaign for not sinking to the same level. A lot of supporters are urging him to hit back hard, to say things like what George Koch @ 2:23 (I assume it was a joke, not that you really want him to say it.)

I would really feel let down if Obama turned personal, negative, or deceptive. On the rare occasions that he HAS gone negative, even though it might help, I was disappointed.

I might not be the target audience - my mind is already made up - but campaigns shouldn't just be about winning the game of election. It should also be about earning a mandate for his policy agenda, earning the legitimacy of office, and restoring our trust in government. And Obama is doing it well.

It's ironic that McCain wants to make the election about character. Obama should oblige.
____________________________________________

Oh, cry me a river. You know why media people are mad? Because it is finally, finally dawning on them that even their former BFF, Barbecue John McCain, hates them. All that sucking up, and all they managed to do was marginalize themselves. They got played. They made their bed, etc.

As to what Democrats can do about this sleazy lying campaign, I really don't know. It looks like he's decided to just slog it out every day and hope the Republicans shoot themselves like they did with Terri Schaivo and Katrina.

John McCain: Because America needs four more years of bombs, bullets and bailouts.

Yesterday, palin was going through her schtick about how McCain would say one thing to a rural crowd and then something different in San Francisco (bitter people clinging to guns and religion). The crowd roared joyously. But McCain's head went down and he appeared to close his eyes. There was no smile. It looked like shame. But then, he's stuck with the Republican party for eight years, so I can only assume he will find a way to fight off the remorse.

Orwell...why would you simply settle for something? I don't want to survive a McCain presidency. Because in the end, it's my children that will suffer. "Survivng" a McCain presidency means that all the pride of being an American is gone if someone showing as dishonorable CAMPAIGN as he is can become president.

My last comment should have read McCain wouldn't say ...

Orwell, doing one honorable thing doesn't make you an honorable person for life any more than going to church on Sunday makes you a good person all week. Honor is maintained by acting honorably - it isn't a polio shot for morality.

I'm so disgusted with this type of politics, I am really losing faith in America as a world leader. How can any self respecting person make such fools of themselves, on the world stage no less, and then expect humility and respect from its citizens and other world leaders?

As a longtime conservative, I feel I've been abandoned (even alienated) by the Republican party, and I can't relate well to the Dems either. It seems the religous right hijacked the GOP, and Roveism infected their brains.

Meanwhile, the Dems just drifted into a black hole after Clinton. They can't seem to get a consistent message, or even a consistent plan for such huge issues as the Economy, taxes, the wars, welfare, etc. Dems have to be careful with the lipstick too.

Right about now, Obama seems like the lesser of the two evils. McCain is just imploding, first with the Palin deal, then with his rhetoric and endless idiocy. I can't believe anyone would trust this pathetic man in the highest office.

This two party system is so broken, I think I would even vote for Jesse Ventura just to send a key message to Washington.

John McCain was presented with a choice: lose the election or lose his honor.

I wrote this in response to an earlier post, but I think it's pertinent here as well:

I think one way Obama can attack McCain on a personal level without appearing to go straight for the jugular is to hammer the point home that it is Karl Rove who is behind this. I would envision Obama saying something like:

"People, let's not forget the man behind the curtain, the man orchestrating this sleazy, low-class and downright shameful campaign, Mr. Karl Rove. The same man who created the myth of the 'uniter not a divider' George Bu$h. The same man who packaged George Bu$h and sold him to America is doing it again. He's trying to package the republican candidates in the same manner. Have we not learned from our mistakes? Are we going to let an unelected official with a penchant for sleaze, someone who revealed the identity of an under cover operative for purely political reasons, and someone who simply ignored a lawful subpoena, to have such a position of power at such a crucial time in our country's history? And you know what people? The saddest and most pathetic aspect of all of this is McCain, in his desperation, has employed Karl Rove as an adviser. This man, Mr. Rove, who was every bit responsible for assassinating John McCain's character in the 2000 primaries is now working for McCain? Do the republicans have any shred of integrity left? Do they care about the country, or just keeping power?

This should be one hell of a red flag. How do you expect McCain to be any different than George Bu$h, when he is being handled by the very person responsible for Bu$h in the first place?"

orwell, what the hell makes mccain-feingold "honorable?" how does it make manifest that john mccain is a person of honor?

as for adopting a child from overseas, a.) his wife did it without telling him; b.) it's laudable, but it doesn't reflect "honor."

and how does being a POW make you "honorable?" in the long history of POWs, i'm not sure i've ever seen the notion of surviving your imprisonment as a sign of your "honor." (i'll give him "courageous," by the way: it's not like i'm volunteering to be a POW. but honorable? and even if it were the case, we're talking about 35 years ago. at that point, even joe lieberman was honorable.)

honor is how you behave: i see a long history of dishonorable behavior in mccain's civilian career. you haven't shown me otherwise.

"This two party system is so broken, I think I would even vote for Jesse Ventura just to send a key message to Washington."

Norm, this is tantamount to lying back and enjoying it.

And now McCain releases an ad using wolves to symbolize the evil Obama researchers looking for information to savage poor defenseless Sarah.

It now has become sexist to research an unknown opponent dumped on the electorate 60 days before the election.

Unbelievable! The McCain camp is playing the people for chumps but what do you want to bet that some MSM tool is going to justify this with an "On the other hand..." reference? If there is an indictment to be made over how McCain is campaigning, the media are definitely co-conspirators.

John McCain was presented with a choice: lose the election or lose his honor. As has become painfully clear, McCain chose the latter.

Interesting twist on McCain's "lose the war to win the election" crap. Wouldn't mind seeing some version of it become a daily message from the Obama camp.

Orwell: If McCain is so honorable, why did he ditch his crippled first wife for a wealthy trophy wife?

Oh, and one more thing you may not be aware of: McCain has sealed his naval records. You can't get them. Only a few snippets about his time as Hanoi McCain, aiding and abetting the enemy the whole time.

Ask yourself Orwell, if McCain is the ultra-patriot POW Mr. Integrity man, why have his military records been covered up?

The world (if it survives) will be a better place once you and your people are marginalized and relegated to the dustbin of history.

Where's Biden? He could be saying McCain/\Palin are dishonorable and Karl Rove is running McCain's show.

It has the benefit of being TRUE. John McCain opposes and denigrates Obama's support of the schools teaching students how to recognize and avoid pedophiles. Therefore, "John McCain doesn't support having the schools protect kindergarterners from pedophiles."

Why not go one step further? John McCain supports pedophilia. If he doesn't want kids to be given the tools to identify sexual predators, then he must support sexual predators.

Similarly, Sarah Palin made rape victims pay for the investigation into those crimes. Victims had to pay for rape kits. The upshot is that this make women less likely to come forward when they've been raped, and this protects the rapists.

Why do John McCain and Sarah Palin support pedophiles and rapists?

You folks really need to calm down or you're going to have a collective heart attack. It's simple; Obama decided not to offer Hillary the VP and thereby lost the election. I wasn't sure McCain would be agile enough to see and take advantage of the opening and choose Palin. Many on the right have been watching her for a year. Olbermann has already paid the price for hysteria and it sounds like Sullivan is now being told to cool it before the last Atlantic subscriber leaves but fortunately, commenters, no matter how hysterical, can't be fired. Take a valium.

Cindy McCain was so fucking high on painkillers when she went to Bangladesh, she probably thought she bought a cute little dark skinned teddy bear to hide her pills in on the way back to the US.

It wasn't until they landed she realized it was an actual child.

Obama to have lunch with Bill Clinton tomorrow.

Like howard, I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, but as nice as it is to see Klein and Sullivan point out McCain's lying ways, until the national media incorporate it into their narrative -- like they did, without cause, for Gore in 2000 -- and stop with the false equivalency bullshit steve cited elsewhere, McCain will continue to get away with lying, and so will continue to do it.

We haven't had honest conervatives comment here in some time -- all we get is jackass trolls like "Orwell" -- but if there are any lurkers still about, nice Party y'all have got there. Stalin would be proud.

Oh, it's going to happen alright. Americans are to blame for it, not Obama for sure, not even entirely Mccain.

Oh, for sure, McCain is responsible for initiating the lies, but America is the one swallowing it. Hook, line and nauseating sinker.
Good grief. The lies are obvious, the McCain handelers pumping it like so many M&M's down hungry throats of low information voters. Face it America, we would not have had Bush for 8 years if there was support in America for clear thinking. Americans have come to realize that a vast majority of them will never be rich, famous, or intelligent so they are bitter and transfer that hate into going after those who are. The most surprising component is that the GOP snow-ballers are rich, famous and smart enough to realize how disenfranchised these low information voters are and use it to win sordid elections. The MSM millionaire pundants are also to blame. Why should they help Obama expose a guy who is basically their meal ticket to prosperity? Not a chance.

What is truly surprising is that Obama hasn't just called a time-out and walked away in disgust. I would have by now.

Just picture this:Karl Rove, sweating upper lip dripping onto his ample belly with a grin from ear to neocon ear once more winning against the clear thinkers. fully satisfied that his noxious brand of leadership has once again trumped sanity.

A bad hollywood movie that wouldn't have made it to a remote channel for a sleepless worried viewer to catch as they sit red-eyed wondering what became of his pension that he worked 40 years for while holding a bill from the hospital for the tests that show he's in need of an operation he can ill afford from lack of health insurance. So you go out there you low information lemmings and elect the very person guaranteed to ensure your doom. Nauseating.

And Bill Clinton? Where is he? If anyone can command media attention it's him. They need to send out 'ole slick willie on the trail, day in and day out, belittling and mocking McCain and Palin, and reminding voters that America was far better off during the 90's than it was during the 80's and the '00s.

And for that matter, where ARE all the other surrogates?

"Norm, this is tantamount to lying back and enjoying it"

Not really cmac.

I know it's a bit cynical, but if we Americans want real change, we have to change the system itself. How can an independent or a real reformer ever get a chance against the almighty power of the two big parties?

Orwell, honor is a thing you can lose in an instant. That is why it's so highly prized. That is why, in order to instill a sense of honor, military organizations try to instill lifelong and absolute discipline.

And that is why Romans fell on their swords, and why samurai commit hara-kiri.

Even if John McCain were to get on national TV tomorrow, apologize profusely and in tears for his campaigns behavior and withdraw from the race, he would not regain his honor. That's not the way it works.

Mike K, thanks so much for your concern.
I always get a kick when wingnuts offer democrats advice, because it's obvious you are so concerned about democrats winning.

Of course if Obama did pick Hillary, you'd have said the same damn thing. Why cant wingnuts at least try to be more creative with their ten watt brains?

Palin is a paper tiger who is melting before our eyes, she is a total ego-driven right wing compulsive liar, and too bad for the wingnut crowd that the press isn't in Grampy McPain's back pocket anymore. His BBQ doesn't taste that good, maybe it still does to the Fake News and AP set.

What's really funny is that now Grampy can't go anywhere without his little woman, or else the crowds won't turn out. I didn't know pitbulls needed to be leashed so tightly.

Palin is nothing to worry about. If she was a man with such a thin resume, she wouldn't have been considered for the job.

I wonder how many free things Orwell has gotten from the McCain campaign for trying to say that this site (even though Steve provides wonderful links to everything he cites) is lying and spreading rumors, all the while trying to paint McCain through rose-tinted glasses. (Read one of Steve's blogs from his previous site, www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com. I know that's not too much help, simply because I can't remember when I saw it.)

Josh Marshall - this rancid, race-baiting ad

I may be just an ignorant conservative, but I need a little explanation about why this ad is "race-baiting". It may stretch the truth if all Barack did was support the bill, but I for one am sick of women ( including Palin through surrogates) ) calling any attack "sexist", and Obama ( through surrogates mostly ) labeling any attack as "race-baiting".

Just this morning, David Patterson was claiming that attacks against "community organizing" were some how "racist code'.

The terms "sexist" and "racist" are too important to be banterred about so freely. Please show me why this is a "race-baiting" ad.

If he doesn't want kids to be given the tools to identify sexual predators, then he must support sexual predators.

Congressional pages and 3rd/4th wives need to come from somewhere.

Give him enough rope and he'll hang himself.

It's not always bad when your opponent takes the slippery slope to Hell. The more disgusting and depraved he gets the more the media will be obliged to distance itself. Since the media are calling the shots in this election, offending even their stubborn sensibilities can do McCain no good.

If this really is the dynamic, and not just wishful thinking, McCain will destroy himself, irrespective of what responses Obama comes up with. He'll go down in the flames he's famous for because he's a reckless nincompoop.

Just watch. It'll be salutary. IMHO

Is this ad real, or one of those video releases on his website? Where is it running?

"wrong on education."...

Since when has McCain been right on education?

He wants to fix NCLB but never voted for it.

He voted against more teachers but is a champion of the riduclous voucher idea.

He really needs to be hammered by the left over his dismal education record.

A good starting point would be an Obama ad that mocks John for confusing sexual predator messages with the sleaze he tried to pull off in his recent ad.

Don't know much about biology, don't know much about the economy. But trust me, and I'll work hard to win your love...oops I mean vote.

John Hansen wrote: I may be just an ignorant conservative

You've posted enough bullshit here to remove any doubt, Hansen.

Thanks for the insult Gregory. Now can you please explain why this ad is "race-baiting".

look, to those of you who are conceding the election to mccain even though the election is two months away, the national polls have the election essentially tied and obama has the edge in the electoral college. it ain't over.

and yeah, bubba's gotta hit the trail no question about it. he's the secret weapon for the dems. i believed at the time that clinton's health problems and inability to stump during the '04 campaign contributed to kerry's defeat.

Mike K, a physician advising people to "take a Valium." That would put his age at about 103.

Say, didn't you flounce out of here a couple of weeks ago with tearful promises never to return? Why can't you Republicans ever keep your word?

Thanks for the insult Gregory.

No more than you deserve, Hansen.

Why doesn't Obama simply run ads commenting on McCain's disrespect for the truth and noting that the 9th commandment is "Thou shalt not lie".

Might make the family values crowd think twice about voting for him.

Gah, another HTML failure. I am not l33t.

The first and third paragraphs of my comment above were the only ones supposed to be italic.

mike k: Take a valium.

oh there's much better stuff out there than that..

and i am an authority on it, honey...

if its one thing republicans are expert on..

its how to swallow...

Why doesn't Obama simply run ads commenting on McCain's disrespect for the truth and noting that the 9th commandment is "Thou shalt not lie".

Better still, it's "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

But then, Rove's an atheist.

it's always interesting to dip in and see which oldtimers are around.

gregory and shortstop, for example, as always, make sense, while mike k doesn't!

(perhaps, mike k, it might have crossed your mind that there was no reason for hillary clinton to be vice president; she's in much better position to retain an independent power base as senator from new york. nor is it at all likely that the people who suddenly think sarah palin is the greatest living american would have reacted the same way to hillary clinton on obama's ticket. but then again, this is mike k.)

as for john hansen, who is new to me, it's clear that gregory is on the right track: if we have to explain to you what is racist about the ad, you're not worth spending our time on....

Say, didn't you flounce out of here a couple of weeks ago with tearful promises never to return? Why can't you Republicans ever keep your word?

Shorter Mike K: "I cain't quit yewwwwww!!!!!"

This isn't going to get MSM traction unless a gray-haired bigfoot -- a Broder or Brokaw -- or a GOP honcho giving journalists cover (Colin Powell, Chuck Hagel, Dick Lugar) is willing to call out McCain. I'm not holding my breath. On the other hand, it would be Broder's last chance to enshrine himself alongside Murrow-on-McCarthy.

I know I said I was leaving forever but I guess it's just morbid curiosity.

Mike K, thanks so much for your concern.
I always get a kick when wingnuts offer democrats advice, because it's obvious you are so concerned about democrats winning.

No, no. It was your health I was concerned about. I've spent most of my life racing sailboats. The last thing you want is for all the losers to quit because there'd be nobody to beat.

Feel better now ?

I was serious about Hillary. If she had gotten the top spot and Obama #2, they'd have been unbeatable. This election is the most important since 1980.

Gregory -

Thanks for the rebuff and the question.

I will still consider you worthy of an answer.

If Obama had sponsored the bill, or had spoken at length for its passage, I would think it to be an ok ad. If all he did was give his support to it, I think it is deceptive. I don't like ads that blame a legislator for content of a bill unless it is really clear and focussed.

McCain and Company have a lot better ads. I hope they do not run this one for long.

It seems the entire "Lipstick on a Pig" story may have been, at least in part, a diversion to take interest away from the the discovery by the NYT that Obama worked on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge.

The piece is considered “unusually deceptive” and an excellent example of “propaganda” by those familiar with his efforts there, but it could simply be that the writer, Sam Dillon, is primarily a writer about education and unfamiliar with the political implications of the story.

Unexplored was why Obama seems to have left out this job from his resume. Considering Obama has been taking a pummeling for not having any executive experience, this would be an excellent comeback for Obama to all those complaints by McCain and Palin.

What gregory said.

If the "L" word doesn't produce enough traction, Obama should start talking about "false witness".

To my ears, the phrase encompasses more than the act of lying. Might it include spin?

We have to address the morals crowd in language they pretend to own.

I think you already know the answer to that question, Neo. The real question is, considering the $150M budget he oversaw for Ayers & Co., what will he say when asked about it at the debates?

If Obama had sponsored the bill, or had spoken at length for its passage, I would think it to be an ok ad. If all he did was give his support to it, I think it is deceptive. I don't like ads that blame a legislator for content of a bill unless it is really clear and focussed.

Looks like John's in favor of helping out pedophiles, too. Kind of scary, really. But hey, he thinks it would be fine to attack someone who sponsors or speaks in favor of a bill that tries to teach kids to be aware of sexual predators, so John must really want to help out sexual predators.

Keep John away from your kids, folks.

"See, in my line of work, you got to keep repeating things over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." - President George W. Bush, Rochester, N.Y., May 24, 2005

Republicans always fall in line.

If Obama had sponsored the bill, or had spoken at length for its passage, I would think it to be an ok ad. If all he did was give his support to it, I think it is deceptive.
Posted by: John Hansen

You think it's valid to say that educating kids to identify inappropriate touching is "Learning about sex before learning to read"?

Do all repubs favor child molestation? Must be McCain's 8th lobbyist tie.

If all he did was give his support to it, I think it is deceptive. I don't like ads that blame a legislator for content of a bill unless it is really clear and focussed.

What do you mean, "if?" It's part of the public record that all Obama did was support it.

So the ad isn't "deceptive," Hansen, it's a flat-out lie -- and a disgusting, scurrilous one at that, one that implies Obama has a radical position on sex education when he doesn't. Race doesn't even have to enter into the equation for McCain to have borne false witness against his neighbor. And, I might ad, this ad is just one element of a campaign of lies Republicans have run this election.

You "don't like" the ad? C'mon, Hansen -- you claim to be a Christian. Can't you do better than that. The question is, are you going to endorse the disgusting dishonesty of McCain and Rove, and the steady corruption of our political discourse, by voting McCain anyway? With your feeble criticism, coupled with your espousal of various right-wing fantasies in the past, you certainly seem prepared to. If so, shame on you, Hansen.

You "don't like" the ad? C'mon, Hansen -- you claim to be a Christian.

Considering his support for pedophiles, maybe he's a priest.

Good post. But the MSM will just keep doing what it's been doing: publish whatever McCain campaign says without labeling it or at most giving a balanced account by republishing the lies through a McCain spokesperson's lying rebuttal. Lee Attwater, Karl Rove, and Steve Schmidt all knew (know) the political game and were (are) winners at it. Too bad for the country.

Since when is the post-Palin meltdown Andie Sullivan an expert on anything but the lamentable destruction of a formerly fine mind due to Palin Derangement Syndrome? The guy needs a sabbatical. He's so in the tank for Obama, he's got gills with the "O" logo.

Barack Obama has taken the low road in recent days. The faux umbrage over this tame McCain ad while brushing off Obama's minions multiple egregious false attacks on McCain and Palin is just the hypocritical guff that makes people distrust the media.

Quit the drama queen hysterics, its a campaign not a tea party. McCain is both an honorable man and our next President - deservedly so.

Hysterbole. Just made that word up for Dems who exaggerate McCain's "dirty" campaigning from panic that it is working.

Josh Marshall, Andrew Sullivan, Joe Klein's hand wringing is a positive for McCain and negative for Obama. They continue to preach to the choir and that is not were the real voters reside.

Josh Marshall, Andrew Sullivan, Joe Klein's hand wringing is a positive for McCain and negative for Obama. They continue to preach to the choir and that is not were the real voters reside.

The white trash that occasionally visit this site seriously need to realize that they no longer represent "real voters."

Fortunately, soon they won't even represent "American."

how fascinating: travis and luther want to assure us that the only thing that matters is polling. their love of country is heartwarming thing to experience....

Mike Quack: No, no. It was your health I was concerned about.

So when people around you exhibit signs of frustration at someone else's inexcusable behavior, you start indiscriminately recommending Valium? Bet your file at the AMA's a hoot.

For a great diary on the subject of lost honor, check out the following link:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/10/172053/416/947/593992

Key quote:

I believe that past honorable service and dedication to duty and country does not immunize one against poor judgment, failure or even from doing the wrong thing. I believe that ones honor is not something one does once and then puts it on a shelf where it shines forever. Honor is second by second, minute by minute, hour by hour and year by year. It is only as untarnished and undiminished as ones past and ones last action.

Check out the link

Why anyone believes in Obama you got me. I'm not saying McCain is the answer, but come on - Obama would destroy our country.

Dan you're a fricking idiot.

More proof, if any were needed, that a vote for McCain is treason. I'm not saying a vote for McCain is a vote for treason. I'm saying the vote itself is treason.

"People will figure it out... And if they don't figure it out, we'll have run an honorable campaign."

That's what John McCain said when he was on the receiving end of Bush's negative campaigning back in 2000.

People didn't figure it out, and it looks like McCain took that lesson to heart. This time, he'd rather win than run an honorable campaign. But people will figure it out this time... won't they?

Norm:

"... and then expect humility and respect from its citizens and other world leaders?"

I can understand the respect part---at least as it relates to other world leaders---but humility? And why should US citizens be expected to "respect" their president, just because? I would say that NO president of the USA deserves automatic respect, just because of being the president.

But humility? Seriously? Was that just a poor choice of words, or do you think that, if done "right," the president deserves the humility of his/her citizens (subjects?) and the world? No way, man!

If anything, I would say that the PRESIDENT must have humility (something Bush/Cheney lack) and respect for the citizens of this country, not the other way around. And as for the rest of the world, who are we to tell them how they should feel about us? If we get their respect, it's because they have decided that we earned it. But humility? No way, man!