NPR Fact Check: Biden right, Palin wrong on just about everything: http://ping.fm/cAKNO

It was a given that she was going to lie her snarky little ass off. Personally, my favorite Biden smack-down was when he pointed out what the Constitution outlines as the VP's role. Direct, to the point, and made her look like the moron she is. Good job, Joe!

What struck me about her performance was that even after Biden had called her on a lie (in the politest possible fashion) and explained why it was a lie, she would just repeat it a few more times.

I assume it's a combination of only having had a limited set of talking points and believing that all the voters watching had very short attention spans. (Or perhaps it's the pundits who have the short attention spans, since she will certainly get points from them for staying on message.)

And this is why I wish at least one debate would allow the candidates to do instantaneous live fact-checking. I still think that Obama should be carrying an iPod with video clips of all the things McCain has flip-flopped on, and when Grandpa Simpson insists -- as he always does -- that he never wavers, Obama could bring out the iPod there on the debate stage and show him video evidence.

Obama wants "the feds" to "take over" Americans' "mandated" healthcare? That's not even close to reality.

I was shocked to see on CNN this AM that Politifact called this one barely true. They base this on the fact that his plan calls for mandatory healthcare for children. I would call Politifact's conclusing wildly misleading.

There is only one party.

A lie is a lie regardless of intent or reason. The damage of a lie should never be excused because someone is ignorant of the truth rather than misrepresenting the truth.

I had a teacher who was fond of saying, "you can't blame someone, but you can hold them responsible."

I'll admit, the debate was amusing to watch. I LOVED Joe's reactions, like when Palin would say something that was a lie and a great stretch of truth, and Joe would either give a charming smile and a headshake, or literally look taken aback. He had high class in the debate. She sounded shrill and like a high school fluff-chick, winking, smirking, and "doncha-know"-ing her way into office.

Let's keep talking about her response to the role of VP - and how she stretched the legislative responsibilities beyond the single tie-breaking vote. Don't let her get away with this one, Steve, bring it home, compare her to Tricky Dick 2000

To get a little meta, I think Palin's whoppers will largely be ignored in light of her doing "better than expected". They will circulate on lefty blogs for a while, but low-info swing voters will remain oblivious as always.

All of Palin's other lies flow from the great lie that she told herself: "I am ready and qualified to be the Vice-President of the United States of America."

The fact that the vast majority of Sarah Palin's claims were demonstrably false seems like an inconvenient tangent.

232 years and we have evolved to this: Can an empty-headed tart lie in complete sentences? That's not a low bar. That's an Idiotcracy. Fortunately, as far as her lies go, I think we have a saving disgrace: A failing economy that will force people to look beyond the glossy lipstick. Prediction: Her lies are going to kick around over the next couple of days...

I'm going to assume she was lying even if she was also just hopelessly wrong. Lying is what McCain and Palin do because its all they have

The ability to stand up and cheerfully and confidently tell known lies over and over is an attribute not of a leader, but of a sociopath.

Sarah Palin exhibited her sneering contempt for the American people with her sleazy, scripted lies and her babble of bumper-sticker buzzword bullshit. Her bizarre, complusive facial antics were those of an animatronic robot. She was like someone doing a parody of Tina Fey doing a parody of Sarah Palin.

Joe Biden was much more impressive than I expected. He was knowledgeable, authoritative, compassionate and wise and talked to the American people like fellow adults.

My only regret with Biden -- and he may well have been right not to do this -- is that while he forcefully responded to Sarah Palin's individual lies, he did not take the opportunity to point out the pattern of profound dishonesty by both Palin and McCain.

I would have liked to hear him say something like "Tonight Governor Palin has repeatedly lied -- about my record, Obama's record, and about John McCain's record and her own record. Unfortunately, when some politicians don't have anything to run on -- when they don't have anything to offer the American people but more of the same, failed policies -- they resort to running on lies and distortions. It's very sad."

When Palin began to reference her supposed fiscal responsibility as mayor of Wasilla, I wish Biden had mentioned that Wasilla had a budget surplus before her term, and after, had a deficit of almost 29 million dollars.

Her bizarre, complusive facial antics were those of an animatronic robot.

A commenter on another blog put it best: It's like she was trying pick up America in a bar.

Let's keep talking about her response to the role of VP - bindelson

And especially her Katie Courie interview. Asked who was the best ever VP, she changed the question to VP candidate and said Ferraro. When corrected, she said, well it would have to be someone who went on to become president. It was very telling. She sees herself not as a potential VP or President, but as a person on a career rise. And her admiration of others is based on their success as career risers, as well.

Lying and misrepresenting the facts is wrong? You're so elitist. There's an election to win. There is no right and wrong...just winning. And facts have a well known liberal bias.

Somehow, lying about your own record seems to be worse than lying about your opponent's (YMMV). Therefore, I score the Darfur investment lie as a bigger whopper than, say, Obama voting to raise taxes. There's a kernel of truth to the latter (Obama has voted on the subject of taxes), whereas the former is the opposite of reality.

What an odious, odious woman. Being forced to watch her smarmy, smiling, disingenuous lying for an hour and a half made me realize just how much contempt I hold for her.

There were several times that palin contradicted herself in the debate. She said that government had to get out of the way (deregulation) and government had to regulate Wall St. She said that in the same answer at least once and in similar answers at least once. She also said that big business, including oil companies, should have tax breaks, but that she was proud of getting a wind fall profits tax on oil companies in Alaska and returning the money to the people. palin touted mccain's health care because people didn't want THE GOVERNMENT to run their health care; that should be done by private industry. Biden had a perfect opening to show the difference between private industry - the current economic crisis - and Medicare. Which is the better run?

karen: The ability to stand up and cheerfully and confidently tell known lies over and over is an attribute not of a leader, but of a sociopath.

Remember how a few days ago Bill O'Reilly, in a discussion of how Speaker Pelosi had practiced her speech before the House bailout vote, said that:

You know who used to do that, who practiced for hours before making a speech? And I'm not making any comparison here. So, don't -- you crazy left-wing websites out there, it's not a comparison. Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler practiced for hours, all of his -- all of his gestures and everything else before he went out there.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200810010009

Well, you know who used to do that, who'd stand up and cheerfully and confidently tell known lies over and over? And I'm not making any comparison here. So, don't -- you crazy right-wingers out there, it's not a comparison. Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler would cheerfully and confidently tell known lies all the time, all of his -- all of his lies and everything else when he went out there.

Stefan,

She was a snarky little lie factory. I completely agree with you.

I kept thinking to myself that John McCain is intimately familiar with vocabulary that best described her last night.

Now, it's hard to say with certainty whether Palin was lying or was just hopelessly wrong.

I gotta disagree with you, Steve. On some of them, maybe, but the $42,000 tax increase, as you point out, is a transparent lie.

There are several other issues you noted whose miselading nature has been pointed out -- after McCain's debate, for example -- but lying is just what she does. In fact, as I commented in another thread, they're using the exact same message, just a different messenger. Since the message has already fallen flat -- not to mention had bullshit called on it -- theirs is an almost inexplicable strategy.

The ability to stand up and cheerfully and confidently tell known lies over and over is an attribute not of a leader, but of a sociopath.

Interestingly, it's an attribute of both Bush and Cheney.

Palin practiced her lines. So did Biden. All performers practice and politicians are performers. No news there.

I admit to fairly extreme prejudice pro Democrat but I thought Palin didn't say a thing. Some of what she said was in complete sentences but she didn't say anything. Biden answered the questions and Palin spewed empty words. One of the commentators on CNN mentioned that and was immediately cut off from expanding upon it.

It's like she was trying to pick up America in a bar

Quote of the day!

Ironically, the fact that she didn't melt down, that she performed reasonably well, enabled any objective person to see how truly unqualified she is for VP. She's nothing but an empty shell, an actress, crammed with talking points and platitudes, with no political persona of her own.

And half the American people are blind to this, just as they are to the collapse of Reaganomics and the failure of right wing ideology.

What will it take to wake America up?

I wish that Obama wanted to create a single-payer healthcare system that covers everyone in the United States, but, as long as the Democrats are cowed by the supposed effectiveness of the mindless anti-tax mantra of the Party That Is Unable To Govern, he won't embrace it.

The Democrats need to make it clear to everyone that the tax increases that are coming are a result of the feckless behavior of the Republicans, the bill coming due from Bush's wastrel habits.

BtN is definitely the most repeated lie.

Troopergate has possible Worker's Comp fraud in it. The report is out next week!

I was a little shocked at the statement that 'She'd been listening to Joe Biden's speeches since she was in the second grade' Yeah right! Do I have 'Idiot' written on my forehead?!?!

The worst part about her lies: several of them have already been debunked several times over. Of those you listed, Steve, I've seen the following debunked, some even in the (gasp) MSM:

--The tax increase on families making $42,000.
--That Obama's healthcare program turns it all over to the government.
--That Obama voted against funding the troops.

Once you get called on a lie, aren't you supposed to stop repeating it? Her strategy seems like some sort of bridge. Hold on, it's on the tip of my tongue. . .

The Republicans have found thaat when they throw out their lies, the mud sticks enough to make it worth it. Palin's outrageous statements forced Biden to repeatedly defend Obama. She didn't assume any burden to defend McCain, just threw out incorrect assertions about him that Biden was also forced to rebut. I watched the debate in the company of a couple of Alaska state legislators and the divestment line re Darfur was one that sent them up the wall.

She performed like a waitress in a diner who's waiting to be "discovered" someday

Biden's "personal tragedy" moment was powerful in itself, but look at the context. Palin had just rambled on about "times and Todd and our marriage in our past where we didn't have health insurance and we know what other Americans are going through ... We've been there also so that connection was important." There's the heart of Palin's appeal to middle America. Hockey mom, raising kids, paying bills, the subliminal "I share your pain."

And Biden hit back -- gently, but ever so forcefully -- with "Hey, lady, you want to talk tough times? You want to talk family tragedy? You want to talk raising kids? Here I am."

I think that's the moment, and the feeling, which gives the evening to Obama and Biden. They didn't need a big win, they only needed to break even. They did better than break even.

In addition to the outright untruths, Palin's over-all style revealed once again a disturbing and telling message all it's own.

Many have commented on it, but I have to say my favorite synopsis thus far is that of

Howard Fineman-- who said Palin's performance was not unlike:"that of a wolverine attacking the pant leg of a passerby".

Fineman also commented that this really was less like like a debate overall, and more like an unbelievably rapid succession of responses to
many (dense) questions with little or no time for follow-up.

I felt that way too. I was very frustrated with the warp speed it seemed to take on--to the extent it does this, it is less like a true debate and much more a performance, a stump speech.

It moved too fast, and there was so little follow-up. And I also didn't realize that they had so much leeway/leverage to simply ignore questions and choose what they want to talk about and what they don't. It makes me wonder why have a moderator there at all, other than to keep time and loosely try to toss out questions...

And this clearly worked to Palin's advantage, because she could just deliver with charm and confidence her many rehearsed statements and phrases).

Personally, I vote for her claim that McCain "suspended" his campaign in order to go back to Washington and solve the financial crisis. As we all know by now, he didn't do any of that, either suspending his campaign activities or contributing anything helpful to the negotiations in D.C.

The rules were dumbed down in Palin's favor:

At the insistence of the McCain campaign, the Oct. 2 debate between the Republican nominee for vice president, Gov. Sarah Palin, and her Democratic rival, Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr., will have shorter question-and-answer segments than those for the presidential nominees, the advisers said. There will also be much less opportunity for free-wheeling, direct exchanges between the running mates.

McCain advisers said they had been concerned that a loose format could leave Ms. Palin, a relatively inexperienced debater, at a disadvantage and largely on the defensive.

How many lies will dance on the head of a pin head? It all depends...

She performed like a waitress in a diner who's waiting to be "discovered" someday

"One of the commentators on CNN mentioned that and was immediately cut off from expanding upon it."

Judy Woodruff on PBS also cut off the commentator from Politico, quite sharply, when he made this observation. He seemed taken aback, but he was right.

Palin spoke like she was on speed. She is a Repulican wind-up propaganda doll. Look for the new Barbie rollout: Pravda Palin.

The biggest lie?

That these republican mavericks will end the poisonous "partisan" rule in Washington. Exactly the same giant lie that Bush used in 2000. McCain is surrounded by the same cast of right wing zealots as Bush but somehow these clowns are now gonna change the "tone" in Washington. Bull!

What I appreciated was that Biden did a pretty good job of addressing most of those liesduring the debate. He was succinct and clear in response, which made it even more jarring when she came back to the same points later.

Also, I agree with Robert. I noted to my wife last night that it must be really odd for the not-very-tuned-in swing voter to hear all this talk of how amazingly bipartisan McCain/Palin will be given that all they really break into the news with is the scathing and dishonest nature of their attacks. When someone is being a d!ck and then tries to convince you that they are great at getting along with others, it has to make you wonder what they are smoking (or what they think YOU are smoking).

NPR Fact Check: Biden right, Palin wrong on just about everything: http://ping.fm/cAKNO

Unfortunately, NPR tries to be "fair" and "fact-check" equally, and illustrates how even fact-checkers are less than factual. For example, regarding Biden's mentioning McCain's article in Contingencies magazine, where he said he wants to bring the benefits of deregulation to health care (as we did for the banking industry), NPR's fact-checkers defer to factcheck.org, that uncritically takes McCain's aide's after-the-fact contention that he was just referring to ATM's. The actual article, at http://www.contingencies.org/septoct08/mccain.pdf doesn't mention ATMs at all or even allude to them.

Both had there moments!
Check it your self!

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

Both had there [sic] moments!

Palin just had more of them, and told more scurrilous -- and already debunked -- lies.

anyone who repeats, dozens of times, that she opposed the Bridge to Nowhere after she publicly support it has already forfeited quite a bit of credibility

Now now its not like she repeat that claim every time she gave her stump speech, she didn`t repeat that claim that when she gave her speech in Alaska!

Anyway feel free to ask Sarah Palin anything you want at interviewpalin.com

A criminally incompetent liar. Can't (won't?) think; unable to answer any questions intelligibly and without a script. Repeats lies as if that will make them true; or worse yet, believes them herself.
Has anyone tapped Lincoln's and TR's bodies for electricity? The rate they must be spinning at could solve our electricity needs for the foreseeable future.

It's hard to say she lied a lot. I think most of the awful things they have to say they say aloud and are proud of them.

They say government is bad, even in the face of this financial crisis.

They say they are better at foreign policy when in fact they're destroying us with awful wars and horrible relations with other countries around the globe.

They say everything they believe in, if you listen closely, and then they smile as though everyone will believe they're somehow right and okey dokey. Well, Dubya smirked and everything WASN'T alright.

Just list the things she said which were truthful and that might be more revealing than the lies.