I'm amazed that Biden never mentioned in the debates the connections to Fannie/Freddie that have come out.

Can someone do a transcript analysis of the debate?

I'd love to know how many times Palin mindlessly
repeated pre-scripted sound-bites like "team of mavericks."

I noted that Biden repeatedly used the phrase "Fundamental difference"

I'm guessing the morning-after McCain ad won't feature Sarah making her huge (to the religious right) faux pas of appearing to agree with Biden that gay folks ought to have some rights in this country.

McCain says he will give everybody a $5000 tax credit so that they can pay for healthcare themselves. That presupposes that you already pay at least $5000 in taxes per year. What if you only pay $1000 in taxes.

I want to see a single-payer system as soon as possible, but there is no logic to our current system of excluding employer-paid insurance from income. Ad hoc ways of getting around wage and price controls in WWII are not a good basis for public policy.

Of course, McCain doesn't actually want to tax people on their health benefit. He wants employers to drop it, thus workers wouldn't be taxed on the additional $12,000 in income. Then they'd use the $5000 credit (assuming they collect the full amount of the credit) to buy a new policy.

Maverick!

ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME! I have been saying that if American's knew about McCain's healthcare "plan" he would be resoundly rejected by 90% plus of our population, stupid or not.

I wrote a piece on this some time ago:

http://tpzoo.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/a-look-at-competing-healthcare-plan/

I wish more people knew...it's sad that Obama's latest ad will probably only make key states and not every state in our union.

What if you only pay $1000 in taxes. - Peter W

As long as you actually go out and buy health insurance, you would get the $5000, though it would be paid directly to the insurance company. So it's better to think of it as a coupon rather than a rebate.

I can't understand why Obama doesn't call taxing employer based health insurance a huge tax increase on middle class people.

By the way, the $5000 tax credit is for families. Singles would only get $2500.

Tweety was all over Palin's idea of expanding the power of the vice president (what was up with his yellow hair and bottle tan anyway?).

I wish Biden had made the connection between Cheney's specious cliam that the vice president was his own branch of government and so he wasn't subject to oversight from anybody, and Palin's people ignoring subpoenas up in Alaska.

Yeah, I can't believe this proposal of McCain's isn't getting more attention. I agree with MsJoanne; if everyone knew about this and understood the implications, McCain's support would be around 10%. I guess "understanding the implications" is the tricky part, but I was very glad to see Biden say it so forcefully last night.

*

We have to make healthcare less affordable. How else are we gonna pay for Wealthcare?

Besides, when Wealthcare passes, Caleefornia will be asking for their own Statewide version. Which state will be next? Texas? New York?

The debate about healthcare tis good, but the monies are soon to be absent.

Time to rewrite the platforms. Neither candidate's promises can be kept in these dark economic times.

A few things:

1. All this talk about $5,000. As I understand it, McCain's plan only gives $5,000 to households. It's $2,500 if you file as an individual.

2. Unfortunately, the ad doesn't say the average family's cost of coverage is $12,000. Which leaves most households $7,000 short.

3. Because your employer's health benefit plans would be taxed, your employer will be encouraged under this plan to drop your benefits all together. That will add millions more Americans struggling to pay for insurance.

4. I also don't think McCain's plan addresses pre-existing conditions.

You don't really get the $5000, the insurance company gets it. In the mean time you are taxed for your benefits or you get no benefits because your company has decided not to have a plan (a situation that is already going on, just ask Wal-Mart.) If you have a pre-existing condition you pay a lot more for individual policies or may not be eligible for a policy from another source.

If you don't have the money to buy a policy now, you don't get one and the $5000 tax rebate doesn't help very much since probably won't have any taxes after you get sick and have to pay the entire bill yourself. The average family health insurance costs about $12,000 a year and the tax on that will be (a guess) 10%(?) which will be $1200. You will get that back nine months later, maybe. If the tax was 30%, you would have to pay $17K/yr in order to recoup the entire $5000 assuming the tax is a credit based on what you pay.

So there is not a $5000 payout and you will have to pay over that amount (and who knows what limitations there will be by income, etc.) in order to even be eligible for credit.

IF the average cost of insurance in a large employer pool is $12000, then that will be taken directly from your salary or wages. Do the math for the Northeast where the average earning is $44,000 a year and see how much a family of four will have to sacrifice in order to keep the job.

If the company decides to forgo insurance then the cost of health insurance will probably be higher for a family since the large pool effect and protection of federal rules will be gone. If you choose the cheapest insurance the likelihood of it covering your doctors (or any doctors ) in your area lessen and the state insurance commissioners will have no power to influence the cost or enforce the state rules as it is possible that your insurance plan may be in Waziristan.

The good news is that there is no way in hell that a Democratic congress will pass such a law.

I'd be suprised if McCain put out an ad containing a clip with Palin. Maybe one with Biden.

At this point, they probably are just glad it's over, and want voters to forget about her.

God love you Eric Blair......
But your dead wrong about this 2008 presidential race.

That presupposes that you already pay at least $5000 in taxes per year. What if you only pay $1000 in taxes.

In addition to what folks have mentioned above, he's also making your health insurance into a taxable benefit. Which means your taxes will go up if you have any kind of employer sponsored health care.

How these people can stand up there with a straight face and tell people that Obama wants to raise taxes on the middle class when they're talking about one of the biggest tax increases we've seen in decades will be a source of constant amazement to me for years to come.

The Post Turtle.....

While suturing a cut on the hand of a 75-yo Texas rancher whose hand was caught in a gate while working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man. Eventually the topic got around to Sarah Palin and her bid to be a heartbeat away from the President.

The old rancher said, "Well, ya know, Palin is a post turtle."

Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a post turtle was.

The old rancher said, "When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle."

The old rancher saw a puzzled look on the doctor's face, so he continued. "You know she didn't get up there by herself, she doesn't belong up there, she doesn't know what to do while she is up there, and you just wonder what kind of dumb ass put her there to begin with."

It wasn't even close, Biden knocked it out of the park. Three cheers for Joe.

Missed Opportunity watch: When Palin said "Never again", I would have responded by saying McCain and Phil Gramm did it first in the 80's causing the S&L crisis, then again causing the Eron loophole and the California Energy crisis, and a third time with Gramm-Beach-Bliley (or whatever) causing today's financial meltdown.

If I were Biden I would've added, "Never again? In my town whenever we play baseball, it's three strikes and you are out."

I assume McCain's debate-related spot will be out soon enough, but nothing yet this morning.

I hope they use the spot where she explains the role of the vice president and how wise the founding fathers were to build in such flexibility. Obama won't stand a chance after that one.

The McCain ad:

She didn't drool!!!

McCain/Palin ready to lead.

Speaking of the Cheney bit, I loved that Biden referred to Cheney as "the most dangerous vice president in our history." I just wish he'd glanced over at Palin and added, "so far..."

Regarding McCain's plan to tax health benefits: if you have a plan through your employer and don't use it very much you still get taxed for the whole amount? Did I miss something?

I am glad that Biden brought this issue up during the debate because it really is a tax increase on the middle class. I felt they should have run an ad about this a while ago.

He wants employers to drop it, thus workers wouldn't be taxed on the additional $12,000 in income.

This is, I think, the key detail.
What has not been addressed, though - what will be the impact on businesses that are suddenly FORCED to give raises to their employees or watch them walk out the door.

"As long as you actually go out and buy health insurance, you would get the $5000, though it would be paid directly to the insurance company. So it's better to think of it as a coupon rather than a rebate."

If it is truly a tax "credit" that works like other tax credits, then what you say here is not correct.

Tax credits can ONLY be used to offset, dollar-for-dollar, any tax owed.

To see where they come in on your tax form, look at lines 47 through 57 on your 2007 Federal 1040 form.

(And if this is not the case, and they really are some sort of coupon, then the McCain campaign is doing a lousy job of explaining that by calling it a "tax credit".)

An amusing bit from Salon's Broadsheet on last night's "debate."

Friday, Oct. 3, 2008 07:33 PDT
Your daily Palin: Debate response edition

Perhaps the biggest surprise for me during Thursday night's debate was that my friend Jeanie and I went nearly 45 whole minutes before getting Palin bingo. (It was on card 4, straight down the middle.) We'd decided bingo would be easier on our livers than Feministe's debate drinking game, which was a good call, because we both would have passed out within 20 minutes, based on this rule alone: "Refill your glass whenever Palin says 'Well, hey,' 'You know,' or 'You betcha' in an inexplicable Minnesota (or is it Wisconsin?) accent. Refill again every time she leaves the 'g' off the end of words (changin', makin', goin', etc)." As Thomas Schaller said while live-blogging the debate for War Room, "Ya, ya, ya, ya ... it sounds like a scene from Fargo. No offense to Midwesterners, but she is overdoing it a bit, ya think? (You betcha.)" Midwesterner here, not offended. Just sad that the bingo cards had no square for "channels Marge Gunderson."

Breaking: Sarah Palin vows to end Medicare!!!

Paul Krugman decodes for us:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/03/raising-the-white-flag-of-surrender-to-medicare/

I wonder how much it costs to buy health insurance for a downs syndrome baby. Another question, how does a 17-year old afford to buy health insurance for her baby? Enquiring minds want to know.

By the way, the $5000 tax credit is for families. Singles would only get $2500. Posted by: Danp

While neither amount is adequate to buy decent coverage, your phrasing should emphasize that families (statistically, four people in the U.S.) get only $5,000.00. I had to take our son to the emergency room with a "head wound" two weeks ago - $680.00.

$2,500.00 for an individual is a bit better deal.

Jeff II said:
As Thomas Schaller said while live-blogging the debate for War Room, "Ya, ya, ya, ya ... it sounds like a scene from Fargo. No offense to Midwesterners, but she is overdoing it a bit, ya think? (You betcha.) - from Salon Broadsheet

I lived in Minnesota for ten years and traveled all over the state. In that time I met less than half a dozen people who sounded like they came form the cast of Fargo. I wonder of Palin's accent is a phony as W's.

Nice commercial. You know, I've had lots of time to sleep on the debate (I have the flu or something), I thought she was given way too much time to say nothing and again, Biden should have corrected Nukuler from the get-go. Hell, I even got called a troll in one of yesterday's threads.. It really didn't dawn on me that the tip toe around Palin game might have been successful but I guess it has. Still, given the fact that she is in the VP nominee slot I believe that she herself should have been challenged aggresively. I know, I know; "In what respect Charlie?" And to the person who called me a troll, I hope you get the flu too.

Steve T. said:
I lived in Minnesota for ten years and traveled all over the state. In that time I met less than half a dozen people who sounded like they came form the cast of Fargo. I wonder of Palin's accent is a phony as W's.

I lived in Alaska for 2-1/2 years--NO ONE talked like that.