Your "when this campaign is over, and he (McCain) realizes how completely he has destroyed his character and his honor" assumes he will realize this. And assumes his character was honorable to start with. Are these defensible assumptions?

I have to agree, sadly, with focus above. I used to admire McCain, but what I've learned about his past makes me realize that, if the man ever had a sense of honor or decency, he left it behind him in that box in Vietnam.

Questions I'd like to hear asked of John McCain at the next presidential debate (Barack, feel free to turn towards Senator McCain and ask him!)

Senator McCain, you've claimed over and over that "the surge has worked" and that you were right on Iraq. Knowing what you know now, if you had been President of the United States and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces on March 19, 2003, would you have given the order to invade Iraq?

How many Iraqi women, children, babies, and senior citizens have perished because President Bush gave the order to invade Iraq in 2003? [If he says he doesn't know, then ask: Is it more or less than 50,000?]

How many Iraqis have fled their homes since President Bush gave the order to invade Iraq? Is it more or less than a million?

How many Iraqis have become refugees in other countries such as Syria, Iran, and Jordan since President Bush gave the order to invade Iraq?

Senator McCain, you've stated that you were OK with American troops staying in Iraq for 100 years so long as American troops weren't being killed? What is the relative value of an innocent Iraqi's life compared to the life of an American soldier occupying that country? 100%? 75% 50% 0%?

Senator McCain, Governor Palin claimed in the Vice Presidential debate that " John McCain ... knows how to win a war." What wars have you won?

Senator McCain, you've said that it would be a mistake for a President of the United States to meet with the President of Iran without "preconditions." If the purpose of the meeting is to stop a war from taking place, and if the meeting accomplishes that goal and a war is averted, how is that a mistake?

Senator McCain, I have a simple question for you: is it better to win a war, or is it better to get what you want without going to war?

If you could save one American soldier's life by sitting at a table with the President of Iran without preconditions, would you do it?

Senator McCain, going back to October of 2002 when you voted to authorize President Bush to go to war against Iraq, please tell the American people what steps you took to make sure that American troops had up armored vehicles, sufficient body armor, enough Arabic interpreters, and all the other tools and weapons they needed to successfully invade Iraq, occupy it, and suppress an insurgency? If the answer is "nothing," are you saying that in your judgment your only role was to vote for war and not to make sure that America was ready to go to war? How many American lives were lost because you didn't do your job properly?

Senator McCain, please point out what speech you gave, what letter or memo you wrote, prior to the invasion of March 19, 2003, in which you predicted that an insurgency would occur after our invasion and occupation of Iraq, and in which you requested that the Bush Administration take adequate steps to prevent it from occurring or to quickly suppress it?

[AUTHOR'S NOTE: I'm just a guy- not a government official. Just a guy with common sense and the ability to read a newspaper. Here's what I wrote in an email on April 19, 2003- two weeks before the infamous "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" -- to another parent of a Marine in my son's unit in Iraq: 

"Why the UN should take over is simple whether or not they do a better job, the perception among the people in the region will be hugely different regarding a UN sponsored trusteeship of the country. It simply is in our national interest to have a respected international organization take over the rebuilding of Iraq. The sooner American and British soldiers are out of there, the less likely that terrorists or suicide bombers will attack our loved ones there or here. And a quick exit will defeat the absurd arguments that we are a colonialist country seeking to exploit Iraq's oil."]

Senator McCain, when you voted on October 11, 2002, to authorize President Bush to invade Iraq, how many years did you then think that American troops would be occupying the country? Did you think we would still be there in 2004? 2005? 2006? 2007? 2008? In October of 2002, did you foresee that almost five years later, in 2007, you would be arguing that we needed a "surge" of tens of thousands of additional troops costing tens of billions of dollars in order to secure the country?

Senator McCain, how much has the War in Iraq cost from the day that the troops were sent overseas until the present date?

Senator McCain, are American dollars being used to build hospitals in Iraq? Schools? Rebuild their electric generating capacity? Rebuild their infrastructure?

Senator McCain, what does the phrase "opportunity cost" mean?

What was the opportunity cost of the invasion and occupation of Iraq with regard to how our resources could have been used at home- in other words, what could we have done here in America with $640 billion dollars we've spent over the last 5 1/2 years to occupy and rebuild Iraq?

Senator McCain, former Senator Phil Gramm has been one of your key economic advisers. Would you care to explain to the American people how former Senator Gramm's role in the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999 (a.k.a. Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act) kept regulators away from investment banks, allowed investment banks to break the wall which had kept them out of commercial banking, and allowed them to create the house of financial cards which nearly destroyed the American economy and is costing taxpayers over $700 billion to bail out Wall Street? Or, if it's too painful a memory, since you voted for Senator Gramm's bill which allowed America's investment banks to overrreach themselves, would you like me to explain the role you and Senator Gramm played in hosing American homeowners and taxpayers?

The loss will be his carefully cultivated image. With that gone, he will have little left. I predict a quick departure from the national stage.

You say: "Sometimes, I try to imagine what it will be like for John McCain when this campaign is over, and he realizes how completely he has destroyed his character and his honor. I cannot imagine that it will seem worth it come December."

I hope he lives forever.

It's interesting to note how McCain's campaign is nearly a carbon copy of Hillary Clinton's primary campaign. They seem intent on making pretty much the very same missteps as Clinton made - and just as Clinton made the mistakes after Super Tuesday didn't pan out, McCain is making his mistakes after finding out that answering every question with 'I was a prisoner of war' did not hold the magic that he thought it would.

Maybe it's Obama's unflappable demeanor, maybe it's his campaign's incredible discipline, or some combination of both. But Obama's complete refusal to be thrown off message or to second-guess his actions or words (remember 'I don't do cowering?') seems to drive his opponents to distraction and forces them into making really bad decisions. Those forced mistakes sank Clinton's chances in the primary, and McCain is rushing headlong to the same end - to try and wrestle the narrative back from Obama, he's been forced into reckless and illogical moves that have derailed his candidacy.

If anything is bothering John McCain right now, it's not how he destroyed his character and honor. What's bothering him is that an upstart has proven to be orders of magnitude better than him as both a politician and a person. And when the time comes for him to face his defeat on the morning after election Day he'll be looking for someone to blame, because John McCain (as far as John McCain has ever been concerned) is beyond blame.

Sarah Palin should get ready to be McCain's scapegoat. He'll turn on her long before he'll allow himself the introspection to realize that by his actions, his flawed decisions and his sleazy campaign tactics, he was the one who blew his chances to become president.

Shit, stewing over honor is nothing.

Imagine how cold each one of those McCain houses will be as he tries to explain to Claymation Face Cindy just what he meant by calling Gennifer Flowers Palin his "partner and soulmate."

I'd pay ringside seat prices to be a fly on that wall.

Stranger - Palin's gonna run for Prez in 2012, and I think you'll be surprised who's faster at "throwing under the bus" speed come Nov. 4.

All of McCain's attacks had the potential of working up until last Friday, 9 p.m. Since then McCain just looks like a paranoid wacko, and the more he attacks the more he reinforces that image.

What attacks could have worked have turned into final proof of McCain's desperation.

Not really sure John McCain had much real character and naval academy-level honor to begin with, per this profile in Rolling Sonte:
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain

Agree with focus in the first comment. Hilzoy seems to have fallen a little for David Brooks spiel of the 'real McCain', a person of character and honor, versus 'candidate McCain', who just doesnt't have an option but has to be vicious in order to stand a chance in the campaign. What if the honor and character thing is just the well-cultivated facade from the past and the angry and vicious guy is the real thing?

I doubt that the McCain seen in the Des Moines Register tapes was scripted in any way. None of the questions he was asked at that event were over the top, yet McCain could barely control his contempt. He was like one of the parties just before a shouting match or a bar fight.

It wouldn't suprise me at all if McCain were to disappear quickly from public view if he loses the election. Not because on retrospection he realizes in horror that he has dishonored himself through the way he conducted his campaign, but because he has nuked the relationship with what previously was his real base, ie the media, and because the republican base, which never liked him to begin with, will despises him for having lost.

The real McCain can look forward to spend the rest of his days as a fairly lonely man.

So, they want to bring up his "associations"? The economy is tanking because of what's happening with banks. You want to go to "associations", John?

Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5 Keating 5

Let's play that game.

McCain sounded totally bizarre Friday, praising Palin's performance Thursday. How does he come back from that, next week's debate ? He doesn't.

He already realizes it, why do you think he can't look Obama in the eyes!

It won't work. Dirty ads, new tactics, shifting the focus - nothing the McCain campaign tries will work because the time has come for change, and he's on the wrong side of that.

The base may like going negative, but when only the 27 percenters are buying what you're selling, you're in trouble.

It was McCain's negative ads that ended the press's honeymoon with him over the past month or so, and had the talking heads on CNN basically coming right out every night and calling him a liar. McCain's just setting himself up for an even worse backlash, with the main topic of discussion on the news networks being his lies of the day.

As for what happens when the campaign's over and McCain "realizes how completely he has destroyed his character and his honor," my hope is that he'll eat the gun. Good fucking riddance.

Unable to win on the issues, the McCain campaign flees to those Republican Golden Oldies: lies and ad hominem attacks. Team Maverick is bringing change to Washington by running on Dick Nixon's playbook.

It is too late for negative attacks. After the bailout package, the stakes are too high.

McCain has never given a compelling reason to vote for him. With the current crap for brains crowd surrounding him, he never will.

I have had quite enough of John McCain, and after reading accounts of how he dumped his first wife in order to marry money -- and to top it all off, the cover story on the current Rolling Stone --- I hope he goes back to Arizona to stay. He's not up for re-election this time, but eventually he will be. I'll bet the voters have had enough of him. Poor Cindy. She made a bad bargain.

I don't believe McCain had any "honor" to lose. The honorable John McCain is a myth.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain

The only purpose of negative ads is to discourage tepid Obama supporters. Republicans tend to consider it a civic duty to vote, though not to become informed. Dems are much more willing to vote 3rd party or stay home.

John McCain may or may not have been honorable, but the point is that there was a public perception of him as honorable and somewhat centrist. In 2000, he rejected the theocratic, Christianist wing of the Republican Party and paid for it.

In 2007-8, however, he has embraced that wing of the party, and Palin is the culmination of that.

In McCain's view, it is only politics and his honor is immune. If these attack ads bring on counter attacks questioning his honor and character, McCain can brush them off as evidence of his honor and integrity. Most of us see that as self delusion that fits right in with the histrionic character disorders McCain has so blatantly revealed and extolled in this campaign. In his mind, his negatives are positives. And thus our alarm at the prospect of him becoming president.

"The real McCain can look forward to spend the rest of his days as a fairly lonely man."

Ah, but he will always have Joe Lieberman. And probably Lindsey Graham as well.

McCain has never given a compelling reason to vote for him. With the current crap for brains crowd surrounding him, he never will.
Posted by: Ron Byers on October 4, 2008 at 4:23 AM

You misunderestimate, i fear, the true campaign dynamic at work here.

Bombin' Johnnie doesn't want to persuade opposing or undecided voters to vote for him. He's got enough votes among the 40%s plus a little.

No, what his campaign consists of is giving (white) voters reasons or excuses they can deploy to rationalize their NOT voting for the Kneegrow, while maintaining "plausible deniability" as to their racial motives...

I say again, he doesn't care if potential Obama voters vote for him. He just wants to give 'em plausible deniability when they stay home or vote for Nader or Barr...

Sometimes, I try to imagine what it will be like for John McCain when this campaign is over, and he realizes how completely he has destroyed his character and his honor. I cannot imagine that it will seem worth it come December.

He may even convince himself that his willingness to do things that of course he didn't want to do is further proof that no one loves America as much as he does.

Physically, I think there is something very wrong with John McCain. I will be quite surprised if he is even alive by the end of President Obama's first term. McCain has known since Super Tuesday that he didn't have a prayer, and it's completely pi$$ing him off. The selection of Sarah Barracuda was always about keeping the downballot races from turning into a rout, no more.

After the election, I envision John McCain returning to one of his many homes, sitting on the front porch, confiscating all the neighbor kids Frisbees and yelling at them to keep off his lawn.

At least Dole was half way credible as a TV Viagra spokesman. McCain may have to settle for as an over the counter salesman for vibrator batteries.

Steady as she goes, Obama. Of course, you know that, though some do not. You are where you are because you talk to people as adults, always take the high road, and address the current issues. Your tactics are the inverse of your opponents'. To change into attack mode at this time would be the height of folly. The MSM is even giving you a half-assed fair shake these days, a significant improvement. Those old smears have lost their potency or been debunked. When asked about them, just say, ' I told you John McCain has nothing new to offer.'

"After the election, I envision John McCain returning to one of his many homes, sitting on the front porch, confiscating all the neighbor kids Frisbees and yelling at them to keep off his lawn."

After he loses the election, Cindy is going to tell him to get his sorry ass out of all her houses. He'll have to find a one-bedroom condo in the outer suburbs of Virginia and finish out his term in obscurity, where he belongs.

Desperate people do desperate things. And has he given any thought to what would happen if he wins? This will tear the country apart. Country first, hardly. How about McCain first !

If Obama really goes after him in the next debate... McCain will pop. He might anyway. Have a coronary right there on the stage. Welcome Gov. Palin as the preseumptive nominee. Watch the Rs run with that!!!

PS: McCain's pResidential campaign has been the worst. Overlaid with the economy, why not stir up the Bush 28%ers to cause chaos. Martial law. It could happen - these Repubs will not go away silently.

The news is looking ugly from Europe regarding the US. The Europeans desperately want the US to fail. Payback. The country will not get any help there.

The Russians and Chinese are looking at a country on it's back. They are circling for the kill. Who said Bush wouldn't break the US?

hey Sarah, I'll see that pastor and raise you one witch-hunter!!

Does she realy want us to go there?

Know this...whatever "ads are coming" and whatever their actual messages are...just read the implied and/or subliminal message...OH, BTW, HE'S BLACK! that will be what these sad excuses for human being (let alone American and/or Christians) will be putting out there...it's all about "ends justifying the means"...these are the days when I HOPE there IS a God and that he's watching!!!

Some wonderful comments here, especially James Finklestein's questions -- we forget too easily that the Iraq war is not just about us, how badly our occupation is hurting Iraqis.

The Rolling Stone article is very much worth reading. Some of what it contains was prefigured by the articles by Phillip Butler (in Military.com) and by the Washington editor of Market Watch.

But one point my own ego requires me to make. Some of us have been arguing right along both that Obama would win, and that -- as 'stranger' and Michael784... have said -- Obama's tactics were the right ones for this campaign. We were called fools by the angstmeisters who were ready to concede to McCain in early September, who insisted that Obama 'was going down the path of Kerry' to certain defeat, who demanded he attackattackATTACK and fire up the 527s with every scurrilous story available.

Okay, the election is not over yet, and we have to keep working up until the end, for Obama, for the Congressional candidates, for Governors and the state legislators who will rewrite the map through redistricting. And maybe my insistence that Obama will get 400 EVs will not prove true -- though I'll still take bets on it.

But don't the 'early panicers' owe some of us apologies? We saw Obama, Axelrod and Plouffe running the most brilliant and patient campaign ever, we knew that McCain would self-destruct, that the party would fall apart beneath him.

Just a quiet word would be enough.

As Stranger said earlier:

Maybe it's Obama's unflappable demeanor, maybe it's his campaign's incredible discipline, or some combination of both. But Obama's complete refusal to be thrown off message or to second-guess his actions or words (remember 'I don't do cowering?') seems to drive his opponents to distraction and forces them into making really bad decisions. Those forced mistakes sank Clinton's chances in the primary, and McCain is rushing headlong to the same end - to try and wrestle the narrative back from Obama, he's been forced into reckless and illogical moves that have derailed his candidacy.

I was saying way back when the primaries first began, and it was one of the biggest reasons I supported Obama over Hillary: both Hillary and McCain were playing the same presidential politics game that has been played for the past 40 years, on the field chosen by the Republicans. That is, every election since the 1960s has been, in one way or another, about the 60s. You know, playing up white resentment over civil rights, blaming liberals for losing Vietnam, painting everyone left of center as a DFH...every damn election for the past 40 years has been on this turf. I realized early on that they wouldn't be able to force a guy who was 8 years old when the 60s ended into playing that game - a game that quite frankly I'm sick of playing, seeing as how it's never had a damn thing to do with MY life.

THAT is why McCain is floundering - he's playing the only game he's ever had to know how to play against a guy that refuses to play on that field. If Hillary had been the nominee, you can bet they would be squabbling over who did what back in the 60s, just like in every other election since then. But they can't make that work with Obama. Just like the Bill Ayers stuff - they can go on about what an evil radical leftist he was and bad stuff he did, and all Obama has to do is say, "I was 8 years old at the time." So Stranger is right in this regard - Obama is unflappable and has run a masterful campaign, but his age is also a very big part of the equation, because they can't force him into a campaign that's all about arguing over who did what 40 years ago.

John McCain's heroism as a POW won't mean a damn thing when America refers to him in the same breath as Lee Atwater and Karl Rove.

I imagine he will find some way to internally wrap his actions in some sort of patriotic gauze, and convince himself that war isn't pretty, but you have to do what you have to do in order to win (protect the country).

He may even convince himself that his willingness to do things that of course he didn't want to do is further proof that no one loves America as much as he does.

Well, that's the fascinating question: Is John McCain a stone liar who coldly and calculatedly spews bullshit knowing damned well that it's bullshit, or has he thoroughly sold himself on that carefully cultivated image of maverick and war hero who's always brave enough to do what's right for America?

Opinions in this household are divided, with mr. shortstop going for the former and me for the latter. I believe this guy protects his self-view at all costs, and will go to his grave with an aggrieved sense of not having been appreciated for his brilliantly iconoclastic patriotism. Oh, and of having been brought down by that cunt Sarah Palin.

Yes, they're going to use the "Blazing Saddles" strategy: when the Sheriff arrives and the townspeople are all there to greet him, the old Gabby Hayes character is out on the edge of town and sees the Sheriff as he arrives. He runs back through town yelling: "The Sheriffi s a ni-i-i-i-i..!!!"

That's now Wet-Start Johnny: "Obama is blaaaack!"

How can McShame destroy something that studying his biography and voting record shows he never had

McCain enjoyed his honorable maverick reputation because no one had any reason to scrutinize it before being the R nominee. It's pretty clear now that it was a self-driven facade, promoted by a man who, under pressure to acknowledge facts in conflict with the image, resorts to hostility.

He does not have, and probably never has had, enough good mental health to be introspective.

Chances are that after the election, he sulks. It would not surprise me if he were to become somewhat of a senate recluse until his term is up. Then, for health reasons, retires to enjoy the benefits of being married to money.

It would not surprise me if he were to become somewhat of a senate recluse until his term is up. Then, for health reasons, retires to enjoy the benefits of being married to money.

Could be. It seems equally likely that he'll quit in mid-term in a fit of fury, enraged by America's failure to honor him properly. Like you said, John, life isn't fair.

I agree it won't fly this time around. At least not nearly as much.

I see the debate is indeed town-hall format this Tuesday.

So why was McCain insisting (blaming) his choice of negative attacks on the fact that Obama had insisted on no town-halls? Geez--Obama/Biden agreed to the ridiculous format for the VP debate (no follow-up) and they agreed to this town-hall format, and they agreed to allow for two unbelievably republican/ right wing moderators to officiate the next two Presidential Debates--I'll bet they're bias will show MUCH more than Ifill or Leher allowed theirs to.

Hilzoy wrote: "I try to imagine what it will be like for John McCain when this campaign is over ... I cannot imagine that it will seem worth it come December."

When the Republicans steal the election with voter disenfranchisement and fraud, John McCain will no doubt feel that his sleazy, dishonest campaign was well worth it.

"...I cannot imagine that it will seem worthwhile..."
Since I doubt he was ever really what so many have claimed him to be - principled, honest etc., the worst that will happen is that he may actually have a moment of self-realization.
And retire from public life completely.

I was going to say, what on EARTH makes you think he has any character or honor? But I see everybody else said the same thing.

Never mind!