voucher "experiments" have failed to deliver the results proponents expected

Nonsense. Vouchers give conservatives an effective, focus-group-approved ("school choice!") inroad into a traditional area of strength for Democrats, and as a bonus provide a means for funneling public monies to religious and corporate organizations at the expense of the public good. I submnit that these results are exactly what voucher proponents were after.

WaPo has a blurb this morning quoting Michelle Rhee as saying that she supports vouchers and that McCain is better on education policy.

A little fact checking might be in order from someone who is plugged into these issues. Washington Monthly to the rescue?

After all, educating our children is of utmost importance. We must have the highest standards for teachers and hold them accountable. That is why John McCain, in the debate last night, proposed letting military veterans become teachers without being receiving training or certification as teachers.

After thought - I am seeking the largest crying towel that I can find for 'Joe the Plumber'. If Joe has an adjusted gross income of $300,000 - under Obama's proposed tax plan, poor old Joe would have to pay an additional $1,500 of income tax. On the Morning JoKe Show today, Joe Scarborough insisted that Obama's tax plan would keep 'Joe the Plumber' from hiring 4 new employees. Plumbers must come cheap these days!

I realize domestic policy isn't McCain's strong point,

Just out of curiosity, what is McCain's strong point?

The whole point of vouchers as advocated by the GOP is so that Joe and Jane Biblethumper can send little Junior Biblethumper to Jesus School on the taxpayer dime. Nothing more; nothing less.

Thank you. Here in Texas the Charter schools are a mess. Lots of the private companies ran off with the tuition money and parents arrived to drop off children to find the doors locked tight. And did anyone catch the troops for teachers program? McCains wants returning troops to be allowed to teach without "passing all those tests" or taking those teacher courses. Think about that for a moment.

SadOldVet- superb show of awareness. As soon as I heard that unaduterated nonsense of letting military vets become teachers without training or certification I laughed my ass off. I appreciate the training and discipline required when one enters the military but it's a stretch at best that that makes you qualified to be a teacher and it's insulting to the people who are teachers now.
Second you also immediately noticed that "Joe the Plumber" would only be paying an additional 1500 bucks. WTF is taht going to break the guy?

There is good reason to combine a portion of what America calls home schooling and the traditional method through the use of communication technology and the Internet would likely transform America’s education system. A combined method of home schooling would support the traditional family values plus be enhanced with a “value added options� approaching individual cultural values here that could likely relive the argument of bias in many categories of social development.

Actually the world is at a wonderful time in history with the sudden appearance of uncertainty in the war in Iraq, meaning how wrong it is, and the wide spread economics’ realized. But Mainstream Media trying in translating, we all are looking at a simple way of home ownership, good health care, good jobs, good education or simply the spreading of wealth. With that said it is exactly why the stock market is tanking. The Mainstream Media is forced to tell the truth and they are gasping.

But this home ownership thing has been accomplished in an ass backward way for this last century, by America’s great leadership and the long time Jekyll Island group that formed the basis of our banking system called the Federal Reserve Board. Actually a banking system that appears to be with in the law, but is operating like a bunch of outlaws. Whats realized during the Bush administration is there is no sheriff here; meaning our Attorney General holding hands, hugs and kisses with Bush and Company buying off everyone who was with him. Remember when “Bush said “you with me or against me� here his great grandpa Prescott Bushes’ method is doing well, here ladies and gentlemen of America now we see Bush was talking to his banker friends all the time, not you and me.

What in the hell am I talking about. First off it is that thing called “predator loans�.

Think about this, how an administration developed high technology with the ability spy on everyone, via FISA, can create a patriot act, likely delivered through an avalanche of agencies, such as Homeland Security, FEMA, FBI, CIA, FDA, which essentially, more like Constitutionally was abused by the Presidents executive responsibilities, or whims as in the issue of that legion of Attorney Generals across the country work for political advantage rather than serve to the electorate, which could place some one in slammer, or in Gitmo, and now we find out screw the electorate out of a job and the pursuit of happiness to own property. This is a classic piece of political crimes that are likely going to send a huge wave of political long timers to the slammer. That is the very reason for the political fire fight.

Then we have these rascals political analyst, CNN, MSNBC, FOX, CBS, and ABC, blaming the electorate for filling out fraudulent applications for loans and voter fraud at the eleventh hour in the election. As if there is no quality control in business, ethic or non existent over sight by media’s mission to serve public through a government license to do business endorsed by We the people then turn around and use issues like the Bradley effect. Again blaming the electorate.

There are no mistakes by the electorate; the American citizen is the victim here. It is obvious Bush and Company economics are influenced by the Arabs for these past years and totally kept secret and out of the media embedded and complicit to this tragedy. Oil prices are falling ridiculously all the while the stock market tanks while Bush and Company bails out of the stock market with our tax money. Bush is signing huge checks to banks that Americans have no idea where it goes, or what it is for. And yet, America we are told “We might make a profit “ from this bank bailout. Ok America the next time you sit down for loan tell the loan officer you might be able to make payments and see what happens. They will laugh in your face like they are doing now.

Bush and Company must be removed along with McCain: Obama must address this atrocity. The horror and terror is the Republican Party now sees Obama has that capability and likely fight to the end. For the Republicans, it is to keep the White House or go to the Big house.

I guess I'm the only one who noticed the big, big F*k up of the night for John McCain:

"And I just said to you earlier, town hall meeting after town hall meeting, parents come with kids - children, precious children with Autism, Sarah Palin knows about that better than most. . . ."

No, she doesn't. Her child has Down's Syndrome. Besides which, why would finding a cure for Autism have anything to do with funding education? Just because educators have to take special consideration for Autistic and Asperger's kids doesn't mean it's a learning disability. He's conflating a bunch of completely unrelated things, here and no one is calling him on it.

There's no way that every student in DC can be entitled to choose to go to a private school, as John McCain. The private schools just can't take every student in the system. Most DC students are going to be left behind in their crappy public schools, worse off than they were before.

Steve (CB) -
There's a reason McCain refused to use the dreaded "V-word" until Obama decided to inform viewers exactly what McCain was proposing.
That's the tell.

Good job to those pointing out the "Troops to Teachers" comment. Let's not forget that McCain also mentioned Teach for America, which should give us concern as well. Here is his full quote:

"We need to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to Teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which – or have the certification that some are required in some states."

Earlier he discussed unqualified or bad teachers and how they need to "find another line of work." Then he encourages programs that foster...unqualified teachers who have no classroom experience whatsoever.

That said, Obama's positions on education last night didn't give me much hope either, whether it was his support for charter schools, or his belief that NCLB's failure is due to a lack of funding.

When, oh when, can we have a real discussion about education in this country?

Vouchers smouchers...Did I hear McAce clearly last night when he mentioned something to the effect about placing soldiers directly from the military into the classroom with no teacher training? As an educator I find this idea at best bizarre at worst, appalling. What brilliant person came up with this idea? People must think teaching is some sort of cake walk. Bellying into a crowded classroom with no training wouldn't be nearly as dangerous as reversing the idea and placing children on a battlefield, but classrooms aren't a place to experiment with such nonsense.

Name me one other situation where such an idea has an equivalence? Soldiers directly from the military into Banking? Architecture? Medicine? Electronics?

If the soldiers are teachers before they enlisted or were forced to Iraq because of their commitment to the national guard, well that's a different story. But to suggest we should eliminate any training before shoving soldiers into a classroom as teacher make about as much sense as shoving Bankers into battle w/o training as soldiers. No, wait,given what those bankers just did to our economy, maybe that's not a bad idea after all...

rom the linked report

"Bill Burrow, the associate director of the Office on Competitiveness under the first President Bush, has noted that school choice is "popular in the national headquarters of the Republican Party but is unpopular among the Republican rank-and-file voters who have moved away from the inner city in part so that their children will not have to attend schools that are racially or socioeconomically integrated."

Same as my experience. Smart parents move to a location that let's them participate in schools. Absent good parents, children are basically screwed and eliminated from the economy.

Schools are one of the main determinants of residential home values.

Did anyone besides me notice when McCain contradicted himself about us needing more qualified teachers? He said we should give the returning veterans teaching positions in our schools WITHOUT REQUIRING DEGREES OR LICENSES.

McCain-Palin? We would confirm, once again, what a delusional country we have.

Just once I'd like to hear an honest discussion about school "choice" and "competition". But then, when do we hear an honest discussion about any issue from the corporate-controlled media?

McCain mentioned last night that D.C.'s schools cost more per student than just about anywhere else in the country and still produced poor results. But many of those costs should not be charged against the schools' education budget.

Take security, if a school is in a neighborhood that's so bad that the district needs to hire off-duty police to keep the students safe, should that expense be included when comparing costs-per-student? How about English as a second language support (ESL)? A multi-cultural city like Washington D.C. will have enormously higher ESL costs compared with a school district in rural Nebraska, or private school that can decide to accept only students already fluent in English. And what about free or subsidized lunches? Shouldn't those costs be paid by the local social services department rather than the school district?

And then there's the enormous expense of special education. When Congress mandated that local school districts bring special needs students into regular schools, they promised to cover 40 percent of the costs. Well Congress has never come close to coming through. And if, and that's a really big if, private schools are willing to accept a special needs student then the cost of all special education programs is paid by the school district the student would have attended.

Since "Joe the Plumber" was mentioned frequently last night, let's use his business as an analogy. Joe's competitor gets first choice on which plumbing jobs they accept. Joe is only allowed to be paid for 30 percent of extra cost of doing difficult jobs. Joe's business has to pay for the lunches of 20 percent of his competitor's employees. And Joe has to pay for guards to keep his employees and his equipment safe, while his competitor is able to work only in safe areas.

Would Joe consider this to be fair competition? I doubt it.

Maybe by making non-degreed/certified soldiers into teachers, he can justify not supporting the new GI Bill.

I also thought this was the most ridiculous thing he said about education last night.

"..combine a portion of what America calls home schooling and the traditional method through the use of communication technology and the Internet would likely transform America’s education system."

Yes, Megalomania nails it. There is a huge cost advantage, now, for individual study which was not cost effective before.

Individual study rules in educational results, students work at a comfortable pace and visit the teacher one on one for an hour a week; with data comm filling in the rest.

What makes McCain think untrained troops are qualified to teach?

McCain's lack of understanding of what makes a teacher qualified is alarming. You don't just pull prep cooks, snipers and munitions specialists off the battlefield and stick them in front of an algebra class with 30 kids. Teaching is not baby sitting and it's not boot camp.

Teaching requires subject matter expertise and thorough training in pedagogical method. You also need a thorough understanding of all the extra responsibilities teachers have to fill the gap in social services cuts -- training in health, sexuality, law, family intervention, nutrition and on and on. And you have to be a good colleague to your fellow teachers.

In McCain's mind teacher training is probably just government paperwork and unnecessary regulation and interference from teachers' unions. The problem is, when you so severely and deliberately undervalue the importance of training you undervalue the cost of teaching. When you undervalue the cost of teaching not only do your budgets fail but you also create the very real perception that since anyone can teach teachers are overpaid. In other words, McCain's recommendation to eliminate teacher training is a direct attack on teachers unions and teachers themselves.

Furthermore, will untrained "teachers" help schools achieve their No Child Left Behind goals that Senator McCain has championed? Ask any school principal and they will just laugh.

This is not policy, this is anti-intellectual bigotry. Exactly the kind of thoughtlessness we would expect from someone who graduated fourth from the bottom of his college class at the Naval Academy -- an education paid for by taxpayers.

Wait a minute. His own statement seemed to say that 9000 applied and 1000 got vouchers. Did I hear that wrong? If not, what did the 8000 who were rejected do? If I heard right this is one hell of a program.

DragonFlyEye said:
Just because educators have to take special consideration for Autistic and Asperger's kids doesn't mean it's a learning disability.

Autism is, in fact, classified by the American Psychological Assn. as a learning disability. Students with mild autism need, at minimum a classroom teacher with an addition year of post-graduate training in special needs education plus weekly coordination with a school psychologist. Most student with mild autism also require weekly sessions with one or more specialists including speech therapists, occupational therapists and physical therapists.

For children with more severe forms of autism, the costs are exponentially higher. A friend of mine with a PhD and her assistant with a masters degree were overwhelmed by the demands of just six students with severe (but functional) autism in one classroom.

The additional cost per student can run to thousands of dollars per year.

always wondered about vouchers. Seems like they typically do not cover costs that most lower to middle class americans would have to pay to send their kids to private schools unless they are faith based which tend to have lower costs than unaffiliated private schools. I'm not convinced that religious schools provide a better education than public schools; only a better religious education. I don't like the idea of the gov't (or my tax $$) funding that. Doesn't sound like a good alternative for a lot of people.

Both my husband (retired , after 45yrs of teaching at the U level) and I (trained to teach ESL at highschool level, back in Poland)*exploded* at the cockamamie (to use JSM3rd's own term) idea of Troops to Teachers, without certification and exams.

It's not *just* that they would not be ready to teach. It's *also* that there are many counter-indicators for their suitability.

For one thing, we've been issuing more and more waivers, to keep the numbers up in the military. So now we have people who didn't even finish highschool or are felons. Do I want such a person to be in daily contact with my child and in a "boss" position to boot? What could my child learn in such an environment?

Secondly... The military is a highly structured and hierarchical institution; an oder is issued from above and you hop to obey it. That's *not* how most American children are raised and not how they behave in a classroom situation (in Poland of my childhood, now...). Would every soldier be able to deal with such instances of disobedience? Especially given that many are coming back with psychological problems of their own?

I was totally appalled when JSM3rd suggested this; it'd be asking for a disaster. To me, it's the final proof that he had burnt through his last two remaining brain cells and is now certifiable (and not as a teacher either, much less as a president)

It seems to me that vouchers do two things: 1) they give money to rich people that would send their kids (like John McCain) to private schools anyway; 2) they allow some parents to keep their kids from learning something about evolution or sexuality.

School choice is something worth consideration with charter schools and magnet schools. But please not vouchers for the rich and the ignorant.

Individual study rules in educational results, students work at a comfortable pace and visit the teacher one on one for an hour a week; with data comm filling in the rest.

Great -- which parent gives up their job to stay home with the kids all day? Or does everyone hire a nanny?

Vouchers do four important things for Republicans:

1) It funds religious education
2) It supports segregated schools (or mostly segregated)
3) It supports "free market competition" which is not only sacred, but is deregulated
4) It defunds public schools until they consist of the worst of the worst and that becomes the ultimate excuse for eliminating "public" education.

Denmark (the well-known hotbed of conservative thinking) has school vouchers. And according to a Dane I know, and a some websites I found through Google, by all accounts they appear to be working fairly well there.

Of course, the Danish voucher system was probably implemented by people who actually care whether children learn, unlike the DC system.

i'm in ohio... and our voucher programs are mixed at best....in cleveland, the voucher amount is big enough to send a kid to a catholic school... and virtually all the parents who win the lottery send their kids there.[over 97%]..however any other attempts to open a viable alternative have been a big flop.... downstate, when private companies could open for-profit voucher schools it's all been a massive fraud and/or fail....