It turns out that "Joe the Plumber" isn't really a plumber at all.

He used a slippery slope argument to argue against a tax bracket. If you tax people making more than $250K, "where does it stop?" Will he lower it to $100K?

It's what I've thought for a long time: a lot of these people are Republican because they suffer from innumeracy, the inability to do simple arithmetic. Joe thinks he "makes" 500K, when in fact his profit is in the 150K range.

Part of this is because he really doesn't keep track of his income -- that's what accountants are for -- and part of it is just that he's arithmetically challenged.

This from Crooks and Liars:

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

Why am I not surprised?

Hey, screw Joe the plumber! How about me, Pete the IT guy?

I've worked the same job almost 10 years, pay my taxes, pay my bills on time, pay off my credit cards on time with more than the minimum payment, I'm raising a daughter as a single dad, bought a house, paid my mortgage, sold the house, and I've watched my 403b lose about 18% of it's total value in a month.

Not that that's any different than most other Americans out there, but hey, I'd love to be in a position of earning $250k and contemplating buying a business!

If Joe works so hard for his money, doesn't he have a job he should be at today?

From what I understood, his question was even dumber, asking if Obama's tax plan would somehow prevent the guy from buying the business. And the article I read mentioned that he was talking about $250k in revenue, not profit. Which would mean he wouldn't get a tax hike.

And from what little else I read about him, it's fairly obvious the man is an idiot who certainly leans Republican. The fact that he might not still be decided about McCain only makes McCain look worse. But I really got the impression that he wasn't asking an honest question, but rather trying to grill Obama based upon a misunderstanding of Obama's tax plan.

It's not Wurzelbacher's fault he's suddenly the subject of so much attention, and there's no reason to violate his privacy. —Steve Benen

Horse shit. The guy has been fielding interviews right and left, and, as a number of intrepid souls have learned, he is something of a fraud and a Republican tool.

Hey, Joe,

If one day you are lucky enough to enjoy more than a quarter of a million dollars in profits in a single year, then you should pay more taxes. Don't forget: Freedom Isn't Free!

Thanks for helping Obama clarify his tax cuts for the rest of us.

Also, Joe, according to the NRA Obama wants to take away all your guns. And he wants you to have an abortion while he turns the US into a Muslim terrorist state.

The takeaway? If you're listening to a republican, don't believe anything you hear.

He seems to really be enjoying the limelight, even entertained the idea of running for office when the question was posed him..

Where is Lilly Ledbetter and where is Josephine the teacher and Mike the Vet who is fed up with McCain?

He is not a plumber
He has a lien against him.
He is a registered republican.
He compared Obama's answers to Sammy Davis Jr's tap dancing and insisted McCain was a straight-talker.
He doesn't understand tax brackets.
He seems to be enjoying his 15 minutes.

He is fair game.

having the discussion with my friend about "Joe the Plumber" bitching about making 250k a year. Most people I know because of my line of work group up in affluent suburbs, there are few and far between that are making 250k a year and anyone I know that does keeps their mouth shut about it. Only an asshole or a Republican plant would make hay over bringing home 250k a year.

Here's the video if anyone wants to see what started this. Obama, as usual, provides a measured, sensible response to what is looking more and more like some kind of plant or stunt. This idea seems about as well researched as Sarah Palin was vetted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA

Just a heads up on the Crooks and Liars citation of this guy's supposed relationship with Keating:

They link to the "Eisenstadt Group" for this tidbit. But that website has been called out before as a hoax - see here for linkage:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=M._Thomas_Eisenstadt

This is similar to the hoax that the right fell victim to earlier this week regarding the "African Press Institute" claims about Michelle Obama - until it comes from a reputable source, I'd not put too much stock in it.

Joe the plumber's affect on this election may be smaller than any of us realize at the moment. As has already been mentioned in the comments, he turns out not to be a plumber. And, if Daily Kos and the Politico are to be believed, he isn't a registered Republican.

In fact, he isn't registered at all...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/16/73234/166/371/632197

As I said in an earlier post, if Joe the Plumber buys the business, and Joe is dumb enough to report the business' profits as personal income, then he deserves to pay more in taxes.

Better yet, it sounds like Joe, his family and his fellow employees would all be better off if Joe sticks to unclogging toilets and lets someone with a working knowledge of basic business practices run the company.

On the other hand, with his economic acumen, Joe would fit right in as one of Gov. Palin's economic advisors, once the voters send her back to Alaska.

It turns out that "Joe the Plumber" isn't really a plumber at all.

Reading that link, it doesn't necessarily sound like Joe isn't a plumber. It just sounds like he's an unlicensed plumber working illegally under his boss's license. And if that's the case, I guess that's just one more area where dreaded government intervention is stifling poor Joe.

IMO, as long as the guy writes Caveat Emptor on all the pipes he fixes, that should be good enough.

McCain is now saying how proud he is of everyone who comes to the rallies and is acknowledging especially those who've served in the military...I knew he'd turn it this way--instead of owning the horrific comments, he is now championing his supporters as though that was the issue of concern.

He is using all the rhetoric--the Georgetown Cocktail Outlet doesn't like her (Palin) much, but we in America love her..

Now he is inciting the crowd about spreading the wealth around' and he got a bunch of boos...

"America didn't become the greatest nation on earth by spreading the wealth, we became the greatest nation by creating new wealth"...
Huge cheers..

"Kill Obama"....I'm fairly sure I just heard that twice..

Joe Millionaire.
Joe the Million Dollar Plumber.

Did anyone else just hear the crowd shout out to kill obama? It was: "_______ something (?)Obama"--and McCain said nothing...

Talk about a totally self absorbed individual..."I've got parents, I don't need another set...the government tries to be my parents...social security is a joke...let me invest my money where I want"...blah blah blah. Hate to be his kid.

Like McCain's policies it's always give me and screw everybody else. Joe claims he wants no ten trillion debt for his kid...but fails to mention it was republican policies that put the country in such debt. What Joe really wants is unregulated greed paying only for protection of his gains. Perfect McCain supporter.

Guys it gets even better, it turns out he's finally admitted the business would cost him $250-$280k and that he would make much much less than that. In the 2nd page of the interview with ABC News here:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Vote2008/story?id=6047360&page=1

Joe the Plumber would actually pay much less in taxes under Obama but instead wants to pay more taxes to McCain because that isn't "socialism".

Look, people---here's how things work in Ohio.

In order to call yourself a "plumber," and work on other people's houses "as a plumber," you're required to have state licensure and be registered with the building department of any municipality/county in which you actually perform "plumbing work."

Joe the plumber doesn't have that---so either (1) he's not a plumber which makes him just a stage-prop "plant" for the McCain campaign, or (2) he's working under the table, performing illegal work on other people's homes and businesses.

You can't "perform licensed work under someone else's license" like he's been telling the Toledo papers. This guy's just a run-o-the-mill hack; a "home handyman" type who's probably working as either a plumber's helper (who ought to be fired by the boss, if not prosecuted by the State), or as a general laborer---and guys like that don't just "buy" existing businesses.

Any actual "plumbing work" he's done without the direct supervision of a licensed plumber is also illegal---so I'd be looking into who's signing off on the building permits. If his boss let the unlicensed guy do the work without supervision, then the boss stands a damned good chance of losing his license---not to mention the retroactive R&R (Rip and Re-do) orders on each and every unlicensed scrap of work done by this guy, refund demands made by customers, and potential coverage-limitations by property-insurance companies, which can easily lead to huge lawsuits. I mean, would you want your home-insurance policy to suddenly include a "pre-existing declaration of non-coverage clause" because the water pipe that breaks and floods your basement just happens to be connected to this clown's work?

Joe the plumber---all talk, no walk, just like the guy he's fronting for: John McCain.

As I said in an earlier post, if Joe the Plumber buys the business, and Joe is dumb enough to report the business' profits as personal income, then he deserves to pay more in taxes.

Steve T - Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. If he's a Sole Propreitor (which he would likely be), than all the business income goes directly onto his personal tax return and he has to pay 15.3% additional tax for FICA. Or if he's smarter and organizes as an S-Corporation, all business income also flows through to his personal return, and he'd be expected to pay himself a reasonable salary. Only C-Corporations (ie, large ones with many owners) pay their own taxes; and then tax the owner only when the owner personally receives the money. But for all other business types, the owner pays taxes even if they don't receive any of the money.

So it's most likely that any business income would, in fact, be taxed to him personally. That may sound weird, but that's how it works.

btw...the tax increase for the $250k range amounts to $12/ a year increase. What has Joe got to bitch about?

Just a little ironic aside here: The GOP was so rabid about Obama not wearing an American Flag Lapel Pin... GUESS WHO didn't wear one yesterday...

These Joe-the-victim-of-confiscatory-taxes stories always carry the implicit assumption that taxes are wasted, and government is no damn good. Real Americans don't need government. They stand up for themselves and make their own way.

And the Democrats have been letting them get away with this since Reagan persuaded us that government is no damn good.

So it's pretty hard to counter these sob stories. Rich Americans are going to pay more taxes under Obama's plan, and that's awful, because that money will simply be redistributed to lazy good for nothing poor people, instead of being plowed back into businesses and trickled down to hard working, patriotic folks like Joe's would-be employees who now won't have jobs because of those nasty taxes.

Because government is no longer allowed to invest in building a better society. God forbid we ever consider another Apollo program to develop alternative energy or rebuild our crumbling infrastructure. Can't do that. No way. Not anymore.

So maybe they're right after all. Let's just cut more taxes on the rich, and deregulate the hell out of this country, and pretty soon everything will be trickling down again, just like the last eight years.

If he's a Sole Propreitor (which he would likely be), than all the business income goes directly onto his personal tax return and he has to pay 15.3% additional tax for FICA.

Actually, the business's net income does that, not "all the business income", since business expenses are deductible.

The difference is fairly enormous for most businesses.

If Joe isn't really a licensed plumber, and if he's not even a registered voter, then that should be brought front-and-center and pounded until the cows come home. Not to get Joe, but to get McCain, who either was fully aware of Joe's pedigree or is too stupid to even locate a decent plant.

The Republicans would not let this kind of shit go by, we shouldn't either. The slimy deceptions of the Republicans are now well understood by all but the trolls like Joe, and we need to use this opportunity to pound his party into the ground.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I watched the video of the discussion between Obama and Joe the Plumber, and Obama should have asked more questions before answering.

Joe said I'm buying a business that "makes" over $250,000, and complained that he'd have to pay more taxes under Obama's plan? Obama should have said, is that total revenue or profit? Undoubtedly, the correct answer would have been profit (assuming Joe's not exaggerating).

From there, Obama could have explained that he is proposing a tax cut for Joe up to three times bigger than McCain's.

End of Joe the Plumber.

Geee, what are they paying plumbers per year in Toledo, Ohio these days? If you figure that the average work-year consists of 2000 hours per year, at the charge rate of $125 per hour, Joe the "Plumber" would earn $250K per year. That's gross revenue, from which he would be deducting expenses like supplies, depreciation on equipment, etc. Let's say he charges $150 per hour, for a gross revenue of $300K per year with $50K in expenses, which might be very real with his just buying into the business. This is doable, but is it realistic in the light of the current economy in Toledo, which is highly dependent on the state of the automotive industry. Joe the "Plumber" is very unlikely to be working on any new construction for at least the next two years, so does his business plan anticipate he'll be able to actually work a consistent 2000 hours per year providing almost exclusively maintenance and repair work when other, more established, plumbers are also competing in that arena. I'm sure he's just planning on cutting his rates and making it up in volume.

Can’t believe this is happening. Joe the Plumber is not registered as a legal business.

Conclusion, Joe does not intend to pay taxes. Joe the Plumber is jacking his customers out of money. No registration no business warranties. No intention to pay any taxes. Real true Republican testimony at its best. Did you see Joe plumbers business van in the back ground, chances are he will repaint it and disappear now.

To be sure if it was Black Business likely the Republicans might be bating the issue here, the media would be dancing all over a black corruption in America.

CNN has a good break down called Fact Check: Plumber Joe's Taxes.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/15/smallbusiness/small_biz_taxes_factcheck.smb/?postversion=2008101611

Case closed.

Well, last night McCain told us that Joe the Plumber was rich. I take that to mean that Joe is currently making over $5,000,000 a year. After all, that was McCain's definition, right?

So, why is Joe sweating the tax details over buying a company worth a quarter mil?

Got this from FAUX News:

Wurzelbacher: Well, it’s, you know — I don’t know how much of the video is shown, but I’m living in a simple middle-class home. Most of the homes go from anywhere from $90,000 at the lowest to maybe $140,000 at the highest. You know, just working, and when I do purchase the rest of this company and move forward, I will be living there still, because, one, I don’t want to keep up with the Joneses, and two, I just couldn’t really afford a bigger house. I’m going to have to work harder to make that company go. I want to put more trucks on the road and his tax increases kind of hurts that aspect.

So now we have some idea of the income range he is in (if the top house price in his neighborhood is around 140K, you can bet he isn't making much over 50K, probably more like 40K) and frankly there is no way you can come up with a scenario where this guy doesn't do better under Obama than he does under McCain.

Assuming the best case scenario for McCain's point, where the business has an average annual pre-tax profit of over $250,000 and he might actually face some increase in his taxes, the calculation he has to be making is what he would have to borrow to buy that business, what his debt payments would be and what he would need to take out for his own expenses (something around what he is currently earning one would assume). Add the debt payment and what he needs for his own living and if it is more than his after tax profit, he can't afford to buy the business. Now, the tax increase we are talking about is 3% of every dollar after 250K. The rate goes from 36% to 39%. Now, keeping in mind the nature of the business, the fact that revenues are not locked in and can vary from year to year, if that 3% increase on pre-tax profits over 250K is a deal breaker and he is currently living in a house that is worth maybe 140K at most (which would tend to set the outer limit on the debt he is already carrying), he simply can't afford to buy that business, Obama or no Obama.

And I won't even go down the road of the financial meltdown we are in the middle of and what that will do to his plumbing and heating business. If the possibility of an Obama tax increase kept him from buying the business, he should get down and kiss Obama's feet for helping to keep him out of bankruptcy.

If McCain keeps pushing this guy the media will eventually take a real close look at him and when that happens he's gonna think he's been through a meat grinder.

I actually heard somebody on the radio this morning wondering if the recent stock market decline is part of a fearful anticipation of an Obama win. For goodness sake, Obama is proposing a return to a top marginal rate of 39% from the current top marginal rate of 35%. That means the folks with a taxable income of $250,000 or more will pay 4% more on the excess above $250,000. If they can't deal with that modest change they must have inherited their money.

Speaking of his "tax bill" see:

http://apps.co.lucas.oh.us/onlinedockets/Docket.aspx?STYPE=1&PAR=LN200701803-000&STARTDATE=01/01/1900&ENDDATE=01/01/2100&PARTY=D,1

He's apparently been hit for non-payment of taxes.

LUCAS COUNTY COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
J. BERNIE QUILTER, CLERK
700 ADAMS STREET
TOLEDO, OHIO

MONETARY AMOUNT: $1,182.98

DEPT OF TAXATION STATE OF OHIO

Defendant 1:
WURZELBACHER SAMUEL J
30 DERBYSHIRE RD
TOLEDO, OH 43615

Another great vetting job brought to you by the McCain crowd

Step back and take a look at the big picture guys.

Joe the plumber?
Joe six pack?

The republican are tageting a vital demographic and no one else has spotted this (except me). He is going after the vital "anyone with a first name of Joe" vote (or josephine). We can't let this happen, Barack has to counter attack and offer tax breaks on income above 250,000, BUT ONLY IF YOUR NAME IS JOE.

Yeah the media will take a real close look at Joe and fill us in on the truth of Obama's tax plan versus McCain's. They've been doing such a great job of debunking lies and half truths for the last 25 years.

this promises to be good if ever made. Adam Curtis always does a good job with agitprop;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9FaIyc4vpU

he is a registered republican. The reports at Politico and DKos were do to a mispelling of his last name.

Joe said that he didn't want Obama's tax cut:

He continued: "If you believe him, I would be receiving his tax cut," adding that he would not want the tax cut.

Actually, the business's net income does that, not "all the business income", since business expenses are deductible.

cmdicely - That correction really wasn't necessary and I am mildly offended that you thought I made some mistake. I was referring to net income and was using "income" as shorthand.
The person I was responding to was only talking about business profits, so I saw no need to get all technical about it. I said nothing that suggested that I didn't know business expenses were deductible.

BTW, I use the word "income" when talking about "net income" to my clients too, as most non-accountants don't understand the more technical terms.

Steve I understand why you don't want to highlight this story. Its another blatant attempt by the McCain campaign to manipulate the press into reporting their bogus narrative.

But, this one is just too good to be true. They just happen to find a "regular" guy named Joe who is against Obama's tax plan.

Give.Us.A.Break!

Ultimately, the guy winds up getting a bigger tax break under Obama than McCain, but he's too stupid to figure this out. Its typical of the McCain campaign. Isn't it? They only care about the packaging. They ignore the content. "Sam the Plumber. How about we use your middle name instead?" Did they once think to crunch the numbers on Sam's - I mean Joe's - claim.

As a former contractor I can tell you that any construction contracting business (like plumbing, carpentry, drywall, etc.) has enormous expenses. A plumbing business bringing in annual revenues of $250,000 could very easily net no more than $40-50 grand of taxable income for the owner. Any plumbing business is going to deduct expenses including:

wages and benefits for employees
leased or purchased trucks/vans
gas and mileage on vehicles
tools
supplies
accountants (if he uses one)
advertising (yellow pages etc.)
home or business office expenses including rent on a storefront.
etc etc

I would be very surprised if any such construction business with $250,000 in annual revenues has more than $100,000 in taxable income. If they do they probably have a very bad accountant or its just some guy working like mad all by himself with no employees.

He's apparently concerned that he may someday have those kinds of profits ...

That's why I take the money I could put in an IRA for retirement and use it to buy lottery tickets instead.

This story really needs to just go away, as it turns out it was a HUGE embarrassment for McCain. This guy wasn't an undecided voter who had a question about Obama's tax policy. This guy is a McCain supporter who thought he could nail Obama for a tax policy he doesn't even understand. He's essentially admitted all of this. Additionally, he has no real plans to buy the business he was talking about. As he now says, he's simply talked to the owner about some day buying it. But there is no plan for this, and if it ever happens, it won't be any time soon.

This guy was just a McCain supporter who got in over his head and I'm sure is now seriously regretting it. He's just another loser conservative who lives in a fantasyworld in which he can only justify the taxcuts he supports by pretending that they might some day apply to him.

Turns out everything about Joe is fake:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418

He isn't a plumber, he makes $40,000 per year, he's divorced and wife claimed her beat her, and he doesn't pay his taxes anyway.

Joe the Plumber looked suspiciously like Guckert.

I've seen feuds in professional wrestling with performances more believable then Joe the plumber.

If the business grosses $250k then it will sell for aroun 2.5x that or $625,000. If it nets $250,000 then we are looking at a business worth well more than $1 million. So he's not a Joe Sixpack kinda guy. McCain wants to appeal to what he thinks is middle class, and this wouldn't be it.

Joe the Plumber needs to meet Bill the Accountant, I think.
http://www.entertonement.com/tags/clips/4726?sort_by=date

Why is it that whenever I hear conservatives talk about taxes, that they exhibit an inability to understand the concept of tax brackets and how our system of progressive taxation works ? They always cry about how it "isn't fair". What isn't fair about the fact that my 60 grand in income is taxed at the same rate as the first 60 grand in income for someone who makes a million a year ? If I ever make a million a year, then I will pay the same amount of taxes as them. Sounds pretty fair to me.

In this case we have the added confusion regarding how a business is taxed.

For being so enamored of talking about taxes, these folks sure do seem pretty ignorant about the subject.

Always Hopeful - You're wasting your time. Joe has basically admitted that he has no actual plans of buying the business. As they say in the world of finance, he was talking out of his beer ass. He's just one of those conservative dummies who rationalizes taxcuts for the rich by imagining that he might be rich some day himself. But he's now essentially admitted that it was all just a fantasy and he has no immediate plans of buying the business. He's just a working schlub who fails to understand which political party is better at helping him become an owner schlub.

BTW, you don't necessarily have to be rich to buy a business if the owner is willing to accept an installment arrangement.

If Joe the Plumber doesn't know the difference between Gross and Net, he's too stupid to be a business owner. He's a slug.

A big problem is that most Americans do not understand the concept of marginal taxation. They think that if you break the $250,000 level, all of your income (or profit) will be subject to higher tax rates, when in fact it will be only the portion above $250,000.

JTP said Obama danced away from the question like Sammy Davis Jr. Why not like Fred Astaire? Watching the video he seems creepy to me.

What is the discussion of Joe the Plumber? What are the facts? Is the person cited by McCain the same one that is profiled on several blogs? It seems pretty simple to get all of the facts before speculating on whether this Joe and some other Joe are the same or different Joes. You run his name, SSN, address through LexisNexis and gather the information. Once you have his correct identity, you can search public and court records. I used LexisNexis quite a bit when I worked in sub-prime broker approval. With a last name like Joe's, which is not that common, clear identity seems pretty easy to establish. One caveat: LexisNexis is owned by the same company that purged the voting records in FL for the 2000 election, eliminating over 90,000 elibible voters, mostly Democrats and mostly minorities. See www.gregpalast.com for documentation of real voter fraud perpetrated by a Repubilcan Governor, Jeb Bush.

Bottom Line: get your facts, then make your allegations. I support Obama, and it is not comfortable to see random charges made that then have to be withdrawn.
That is all!
peace,
st john

"JTP said Obama danced away from the question like Sammy Davis Jr. Why not like Fred Astaire?"

Maybe he thought Obama was Jewish ? :-)

It's like the other post regarding the "Obama bucks" in California. That poor lady simply thought that watermelon, fried-chicken, and ribs were things that people from Chicago ate.

"A big problem is that most Americans do not understand the concept of marginal taxation. They think that if you break the $250,000 level, all of your income (or profit) will be subject to higher tax rates, when in fact it will be only the portion above $250,000."

Bingo. Very well put. Until people understand our system of taxation, it is going to be very hard to counter the "lower taxes, all the time" crowd.

It's like the other post regarding the "Obama bucks" in California. That poor lady simply thought that watermelon, fried-chicken, and ribs were things that people from Chicago ate.

Indeed. And when they draw pictures of Obama wearing Muslim clothes, they're just trying to show their multi-cultural side by showing that they accept him in his native garb. And they emphasize his large lips and big grin as a way of expressing their delight of the negro face. It's quite unfortunate that some people misintrepret this as hatred.

"It's quite unfortunate that some people misintrepret this as hatred."

Yes, they're all just members of the PC police.

:-)

Joe is not even a licensed plumber and so shouldn't be called "a plumber": http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp

Any media that publishes this crap, should be ashamed..

Digging up this dirt is distasteful...

Our media sucks and government..

He is a single father working hard to make ends meet. Who cares about a small potato tax bill.. He got behind... Do you know how many people in this current enviroment are behind on bills ? He is just another victim of bureaucratic Bull****...