Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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November 3, 2008

AN OBJECT LESSON IN VETTING.... No matter what happens tomorrow, I'd like to think presidential campaign have learned a valuable lesson about the importance of vetting. That's obviously the case when it comes to running mates -- John McCain had no idea who Sarah Palin was before putting her on the national ticket -- but it's also true when it comes to picking mascots to exploit.

Sam "Joe the Plumber" Wurzelbacher asked Barack Obama a question a couple of weeks ago, and according to the McCain campaign, quickly became the single most important person on the planet. McCain didn't know anything about the guy, but Obama told him he'd like to "spread the wealth" around to the middle class, and as far as the Republican ticket was concerned, that's all they needed to know. Wurzelbacher became the central focus of a McCain debate strategy, ad campaign, stump speech, and multi-state tour.

And yet, Wurzelbacher's penchant for saying insane things suggests McCain probably should have thought this through before acting. Yesterday, McCain's mascot told Fox News that "greatly" questions Obama's "loyalty to our country."

This came five days after Wurzelbacher endorsed the idiotic idea that a vote for Obama would be "a vote for the death of Israel," and four days after Wurzelbacher said the notion of progressive taxation is "honestly right out of Karl Marx's mouth. No one can debate that. That's not my opinion. That's fact."

Josh Marshall noted that, as far as the Republican ticket is concerned, Wurzelbacher has "become a part of McCain's campaign, like any other surrogate." That's true, but it also goes further -- just a few days ago, McCain described Wurzelbacher as "an American hero, a great citizen of Ohio and my role model."

"Role model."

In other words, the Republican nominee for president has picked some strange man who believes bizarre things and, without any vetting at all, made him the centerpiece of his entire campaign.

Let this be a lesson for all future presidential campaigns: vetting is your friend.

Steve Benen 8:34 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (57)

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Just like a rat dragging a shiny new piece of tin foil back to the nest..........

Posted by: steve duncan on November 3, 2008 at 8:38 AM | PERMALINK

"greatly" questions Obama's "loyalty to our country."
a vote for the death of Israel
right out of Karl Marx's mouth.

There have been several times when advisors have said that McCain doesn't speak for the campaign, but Joe sure seems to. He's more than a mascot. He's a poor man's Frank Luntz.

Posted by: Danp on November 3, 2008 at 8:41 AM | PERMALINK

Joe the Idiot
Sarah the Albatross
John the Loser

Makes the Three Stooges look like a team of Nobel laureates.

Posted by: rick on November 3, 2008 at 8:41 AM | PERMALINK

insane comments from Joe are a feature, not a bug, as far as the McCain campaign is concerned.

Posted by: airron on November 3, 2008 at 8:47 AM | PERMALINK

I thought Sarah Palin was the single most insulting thing I'd ever seen a presidential candidate do to the voters, and then McCain one-upped himself with Joe the Plumber.

Candidate John McCain is simply unfathomable.

Posted by: Vicki Linton on November 3, 2008 at 8:48 AM | PERMALINK

Well, I dunno, this "vetting" thing sounds like some comm'nist Gestapo thing or somethin'. Or maybe somthin' some perfesser does, or some gummint committee.

I say, go with yer gut, like George Bush did when he led us to victory in I-rack. That's the American way.

Posted by: bleh on November 3, 2008 at 8:50 AM | PERMALINK

The face of defeat and shame. Like putting youths in the streets to fight the onslaught of the red army.
Absolutely despicable and dishonorable.

Posted by: lou on November 3, 2008 at 8:52 AM | PERMALINK

Joe the Plumber, Tito the Builder, Palin (esp. as presented as "genuine, one of us", I don't think there's any other explanation possible: the McCain campaign is consciously going after the votes of very unintelligent people.

Posted by: Joe Bourgeois on November 3, 2008 at 8:54 AM | PERMALINK

Krugman has a piece today that addresses whether or not the pugs will take an electoral loss to heart and regroup. My guess is that they really won't, that they'll never look back on Joe the Plumber as being just another stupid gimmick, starting with Palin, running through the pig with lipstick, the suspension of the campaign, right up through the "progressive taxation is Marxist!" bit.

Should Obama win, what Americans need to do is keep alive the McCain stupidity by offhand comments and jokes. The particular brand of pugism that McCain's campaign represents needs to be crushed, not only for the good of America, but for the good of the world. No better way to do that than to make it the subject of subtle derision as we set about the heavy task of rebuilding America.

Posted by: castanea on November 3, 2008 at 8:55 AM | PERMALINK

And yet, he's done more interviews than Palin, and even held a press conference.

It will be interesting in 2012 if Palin tries to run a primary campaign and only speaks to right-wing news media. I think there are pretty good odds that she never holds a presser in her life.

Posted by: Jake on November 3, 2008 at 8:57 AM | PERMALINK

Apparently this ill-educated, low-information jamoke is also a wife beater as well. Who would have guessed, who could possibly have foreseen...

Posted by: My Yankee Mouth on November 3, 2008 at 9:02 AM | PERMALINK

castanea: ...whether or not the pugs will take an electoral loss to heart and regroup. My guess is that they really won't...

This is an interesting issue; based on what I've been reading from "old time Eisenhower-type conservatives," I think that there will be major battles within the Republican Party after the election. The moderates are increasingly enraged at the extent to which the GOP has been hijacked by the radicals.

But will campaign tactics change? Here I agree with you; I don't think that Republicans know any other way of campaigning...their current tactics are the only thing they've known since Atwater's days. At this point, they simply can't campaign on substance because they have none.

Posted by: JM on November 3, 2008 at 9:05 AM | PERMALINK

Yet all these statements from McCain's professed "role model" won't get 1/1,000th the coverage of Ayers.

Posted by: John McCain: Worse than Bush on November 3, 2008 at 9:05 AM | PERMALINK

Jake: It will be interesting in 2012 if Palin tries to run a primary campaign...

My prediction, based on no real evidence at all: Palin's essentially finished. Moderate Republicans will reject her.

She will end up with her own show on Fox News.

Posted by: JM on November 3, 2008 at 9:09 AM | PERMALINK

This guy can't even pay his fair share of taxes. Why would I want to listen to him? For the skin on his head? To boost cable ratings? Cause I wanna be a plumber? WTF FOX! -Kevo

Posted by: kevo on November 3, 2008 at 9:18 AM | PERMALINK

The Republican attacks on Obama's devotion to the US got me thinking about what I would do if I hated America and wanted to harm it. Having Bush and Cheney in charge for 8 more years with Delay and McConnell leading majorities in Congress is about as bad an attack on America I can come up with.

Posted by: Th on November 3, 2008 at 9:19 AM | PERMALINK

She will end up with her own show on Fox News.

Posted by: JM on November 3, 2008 at 9:09 AM
She has to be so done with Alaska about now. FOX would dangle hundreds of thousands, if not millions, for her to host a slot. Could she carry it off? I think despite The Left's tendency to discount conservative media personalities it does take a minumum of intelligence to host 30 minutes a day, week after week, and maintain ratings. How Glenn Beck beats the odds though is beyond me. She's MILF on steroids, has TV experience and can string together seemingly semi-lucid sentences so I say she takes the money and bids AK toodles. Of course it would be all neocons all the time on the set. A Lefty guest taunting her with logic and demanding a rational interview would cause her head to explode.

Posted by: steve duncan on November 3, 2008 at 9:23 AM | PERMALINK

I've argued over the past few months that the string-pullers in the GOP really don't want to win the White House, that they'd rather be obstructionists to Obama for 4 years, and attack from a scrappy-underdog stance, taking on the Establishment and hope they do such a god job minimalizing Obama's effectiveness (while demonizing him as a human being), they can actually claim a mandate. But to lose, much like the plot of Mel Brooks' "The Producers" they had to pick a bad candidate, change him to make him worse, give him an even worse running mate & an inept campaign staff.

But sunovabeesting, just like the classic movie (and, I suppose, the awful musical remake), they started failing their way to a success. I shudder to think what would've happened, how close they might've come, had the economy not collapsed.

I almost feel like (Sam)Joe the (notta)Plumber was their ace in the hole, someone so pig-ignorant and bordering-on-pro-wrestler over-the-top of a caricature of a "real" American, mods & indies would abandon the GOP in droves out of fear of being compared to him.

I don't know if my theory is right; I'm sure, in fact, that it's not. But precious little about McCain's campaign looked like the campaign of a man, of a party, that really wanted to win.

Posted by: slappy magoo on November 3, 2008 at 9:23 AM | PERMALINK

My Yankee Mouth, that wife-beater claim has absolutely no evidence to support it. Look at that damn document you linked to again. It includes a line item charge of $10 labelled "battered women", but that's a surcharge applied to ALL divorce filings in Lucas County. It has NOTHING to do with any judgment about any individual getting a divorce.

Can we just NOT repeat stupid rumours without looking into them? Jesus.

Posted by: MaryL on November 3, 2008 at 9:24 AM | PERMALINK

Sarah and Joe's Love Child for President in 2044!

Vote early

Posted by: berttheclock on November 3, 2008 at 9:24 AM | PERMALINK

I think that there will be major battles within the Republican Party after the election. The moderates are increasingly enraged at the extent to which the GOP has been hijacked by the radicals.

The problem with this scenario is that that moderates don't have a voter base within the GOP anymore. 8 years of Bush (okay, more like 4 years of Bush for most of them) combined with the last year or so of nonsense from the GOP has driven them out of the party. So the moderates are going to have a HUGE uphill fight now to drag their party back to something resembling sanity.

(I doubt they'll bother - in the end I think the moderates will jump ship and work to pull the Democratic party a bit more centrist than it even is now. Economically, the Dems are pretty much a fiscally conservative party at this point, and moderates tend to care less about social issues than fiscal ones.)

Posted by: NonyNony on November 3, 2008 at 9:31 AM | PERMALINK

And we still don't know if this guy is related to Charles Keating, do we?

People seemed to dismiss that possibility when they found out the Robert M. Wurzelbacher and GOP donor in Milford, OH was too old to be the Robert M. Wurzelbacher who married into the Keating family and wound up in jail.


However, the Keating in-law and jailbird is actually Robert M. Wurzelbacher, Jr. And yes, the guy in Ohio is just the right age to be his father.

Still inconclusive, one way or the other, but why hasn't this been nailed down by now?

Posted by: Bill in Chicago on November 3, 2008 at 9:36 AM | PERMALINK

If the McCain machine goes down tomorrow, it will go down for doing the same thing I had done until early this last spring: severely underestimating the intelligence of the American voter.

Of course, it doesn't hurt that McCain has simultaneously severely overestimated the intelligence of Sarah and Joe.

This time around, instead of using the Jeti Mind Tricks that worked in previous elections, Republicans decided to run their campaign like a Jerry Springer show. Not only did they count on their audience being idiots, they handed the microphone to the idiots in the audience. Any republican with an IQ above those of Sarah and Joe can't help but feel betrayed.

This time, instead of trying to fool most of the people, they gave voice to most of the fools and the people ran away screaming.

Posted by: chrenson on November 3, 2008 at 9:36 AM | PERMALINK

"Joe the Wurzel" is a blatant insult to the intelligence and decency of all Ohioans, and undoubtedly qualifies as a poster-brat for the tinfoil-hat industry.

And by the way---why is it that everyone named "joe" who's on the Republican side of the fence is dumber than dirt? They're giving the Joes of the world a bad rep....

Posted by: Steve W. on November 3, 2008 at 9:40 AM | PERMALINK

Still inconclusive, one way or the other, but why hasn't this been nailed down by now?

Because who cares? Let's leave the dumpster diving to Michelle Malkin.

Posted by: Aaron on November 3, 2008 at 9:44 AM | PERMALINK

Role model is okay, but if I were Joe I'd be pushing for soulmate.

Posted by: tdubose on November 3, 2008 at 9:47 AM | PERMALINK

I think you're missing the point. In the Republican universe, unmoored as it is from reality, Joe Wurzelbacher says the right things, he makes sense. McCain holding up this guy as a role model works for the dwindling minority of Americans who believe Republican nonsense. He's one of them. You can argue it makes no political sense for McCain to alienate moderates with Wurzelbacher, but when did McCain last make sense to anyone outside the Republican bubble?

Posted by: jrw on November 3, 2008 at 9:52 AM | PERMALINK


Excellent points. An interesting question will be the extent to which Republican moderates actually switch party affiliation.

We may get a preview of how things eventually shake out within just a few months: Kevin Drum points out that Democratic gains in the House (in particular) will translate into a Republican caucus that is dominated by the extremists to a larger extent than it is now (as reasonable, moderate Republicans lose to centrist Democrats).

Perhaps we will see the remaining moderate Repubs increasingly voting with the Dems, while the extremist Repubs play the obstructionist game.

Posted by: JM on November 3, 2008 at 9:52 AM | PERMALINK

The Wurzelbacher Wurlitzer

Joe the Role Model is the one who is going to get his own show on Fox. That's the only media place where a skinhead can prosper.

What does John get out of the deal?
How about a life size cardboard cutout of Joe he can worship? That "role model" comment was the absolute bottom of the stupid barrel. It makes McCain look 2 inches tall...

Posted by: koreyel on November 3, 2008 at 9:56 AM | PERMALINK

"I've argued over the past few months that the string-pullers in the GOP really don't want to win the White House........"-magoo

I have the exact same feeling. This has been such a piss poor campaign that I really can't believe Repubs wanted it. After all, they are the masters of nothing if not political campaigns.

My theory is that they saw the shit hitting the fan (economy wise) and decided to let Democrats take the heat. I'm sure they were quite disappointed that the markets started to tank before Bush left office free and clear. The Bushies did everything to deny and postpone that all year long with their "housing crisis is contained" bullshit. But reality was faster than they thought, and caught up to them.
Repubs did EVERYTHING to throw this one and still ended up neck and neck in early Sept.
WOW. That's got to make them feel really good about 2012, in which the country will still be feeling the effects of a deep recession under a Democratically controlled government.

Posted by: on November 3, 2008 at 9:56 AM | PERMALINK

>"...strange man who believes bizarre things..."

Sounds like a perfect republican role model to me.

Posted by: Buford on November 3, 2008 at 9:57 AM | PERMALINK

Sam's speaking puts to the rest the old Aryan "scientific" concept of a large head denoting intelligence.

Posted by: berttheclock on November 3, 2008 at 9:58 AM | PERMALINK

Is there anything more that can be said about the level of inane,low intelligence,dishonesty,disengenuous and downright lack of any kind of thinking that McCain displays with a statement like Joe the plumber is my role model.
God help us and all the idiots that are going to vote for that moron if he gets elected by hook or by crook.

Posted by: Gandalf on November 3, 2008 at 10:04 AM | PERMALINK

Jack Ohman, of the Oregonian, has a fun cartoon, this morning, online. Shows Double Talk at his desk with many love and kisses photos of his beloved Sarah behind him - He is reading a "Dear John" from Sarah about how she is movin' on.

Sort of a "It's not you, John, it's me and it will always be about me"

Posted by: berttheclock on November 3, 2008 at 10:12 AM | PERMALINK

Here's the funny thing.

While most sane people see Joe as an idiot know-nothing, who spouts inanely stupid talking points . . . . . the hardcore neocon nutwing base believe his statements. Joe reinforces their own beliefs and makes them feel good about themselves.

This neocon nutjob Republican base gave up on facts and truth long ago. As Colbert said "facts have a liberal bias". So, the rightwing nutjobs don't really care about reality. They much prefer their fantasyworld where terrorists lurk underneath their beds, and a guy's middle name is evidence of his secret treason.

So, don't even try to reason with these idiots. They have their own "facts" and they're sticking with them. No amount of reason, truth or facts will change their minds. To them, Joe is a prophet.

Posted by: Continuum on November 3, 2008 at 10:15 AM | PERMALINK

I was truly astounded (again) by the McCain campaign adopting this guy off the street, but when I saw him on tv as a McCain spokesperson, I was flabbergasted.

One can't even imagine what McCain's people might do if they had more time, but perhaps they would have a "Cabinet Preview Amateur Hour" where people off the street would perform to win a place in McCain's Cabinet.

Posted by: Capt Kirk on November 3, 2008 at 10:22 AM | PERMALINK

Remember when this was a joke?


Posted by: Steve Paradis on November 3, 2008 at 10:29 AM | PERMALINK

If we had something like an informed set of MSM anchorpersons and interviewers (not to mention the general populace), Mr. Wurzelbacher would not have been able to spout his Marx invented progressive taxation without having to respond to something like this.

Posted by: jhm on November 3, 2008 at 10:29 AM | PERMALINK

This post is a bit disingenuous in that NO campaign before this has done as poor a job in any basic functions and clearly not so many all at one time.

In the days after the Palin selection, observers discussed Eagleton as the last and at the time haphazard selection.

The warning to future campaigns hardly needs to be made as the country sits and ponders what and the hell John McCain might have been thinking over the past 8 months.

Posted by: ThatGuy on November 3, 2008 at 10:30 AM | PERMALINK

It's like that great line from the Chubby Checker "Limbo Rock" song:

'How LOW will you go?'

Should be the new McCain theme line, don't ya think?!

What a lying, exploitive narcissistic SOB this Werzel guy turned out to be. And McCain keeps referring to him as and American Hero? Is he insane? McCain seriously wants all Americans to use him as a symbol to aspire to? For real? For shame McCain.

Parents, don't let your kids grow up to be Werzelbacher boneheads.


Posted by: Katie, I'd like to use a lifeline on November 3, 2008 at 10:34 AM | PERMALINK

I think the line actually went: 'How LOW can you go?' (Followed by laughter)... Then 'A little lower now..."

It's a perfect theme line for the McCain campaign.

Posted by: Katie, I'd like to use a lifeline on November 3, 2008 at 10:38 AM | PERMALINK
In other words, the Republican nominee for president has picked some strange man who believes bizarre things and, without any vetting at all, made him the centerpiece of his entire campaign.

Um, "a strange man who believes bizarre things" (like that Sarah Palin is the most qualified recent nominee to the Vice Presidency) is already at the top of the ticket, so who would you expect him to pick as a mascot even if there were time and resources for vetting?

Posted by: cmdicely on November 3, 2008 at 10:42 AM | PERMALINK

It is said JF Kennedy chose Johnson as his VP to remove him from the senate, preventing Johnson from obstructing Kennedy's legislative plans. I hope Obama chose Biden for the same reason.

Posted by: Brojo on November 3, 2008 at 10:44 AM | PERMALINK

Steve, you lost me with your reference to "Sam 'Joe the Plumber' Wurzelbacher". This idea that "'Joe' isn't even his real name" is the stupidest talking point I've heard from the left side of the political spectrum this year.

Two words for you: "Ross Perot". Where were the people in 1992 who claimed that Perot wasn't being straight with the American people because "Ross" wasn't even his real name?

If Mr. Wurzelbacher calls himself "Joe" and is referred to as "Joe" by his friends and family, and furthermore "Joseph" is one of his given names, then there's just no rational argument that his name isn't really "Joe", unless there's evidence (that I haven't seen) that he goes by "Sam" in daily life and just put on the "Joe" for political purposes.

There are more than enough reasonable objections to Wurzelbacher's opinions and McCain/Palin's use of him in the campaign. The fact that, for whatever reason, he chooses to go by his middle name is not one of them.

Posted by: noncarborundum on November 3, 2008 at 11:12 AM | PERMALINK

slappy magoo @ 9:23:

. . . bordering-on-pro-wrestler . . .

I think you just insulted Jesse the Body, who looks pretty damn good compared to JtP.

Posted by: noncarborundum on November 3, 2008 at 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

Just goes to show how poorly run the McCain camp really was. Would any campaign manager who knows what they are doing, let some prop like this idiot Joe run wild and overshadow their own candidate?

The election is about McCain and he should be the headliner. Why give all the attention to the side stage act?

And how about those Palin rallies with just Palin signs, no visible support of Mccain at all?

What a disaster.

Posted by: Stevie on November 3, 2008 at 11:37 AM | PERMALINK

Vetting? Do you think McCain is a poker player, playing off his knowledge and understanding of his fellow players?

John McCain is a craps shooter. His bets aren't based on knowledge or understanding, but on pure 'gut instinct.' And every roll of the dice is a new situation, so if yiu were betting on red, odd, or low before, you can change those bets on this roll.

Vetting isn't relevant to him, which is why he gave us Hagee, Palin, and Wurzlebacher.

As for the question of the 'Republican future,' either the Republican Party moves back to where there is an influential block of moderates and 'honorable' conservatives to keep the crazies and crooks in check, or they will go the way of the Whigs, and there will be a new, Center-Right Party slowly spinning off from the Democrats.

The first option would be the 'better' one, but I don't see it. For the most part, it is the crazies that are most likely to win re-election, the Inhofes, Enzis, etc. seem in safe seats. Except for Collins, the most centrist Republicans in safe seats are Lamar Alexander and Lindsey Graham.

And of the rest, the few Republicans who come close to representing what I'd like to see, Lugar, Specter, Hagel, even Grassley and Cochrane are all either retiring or are in their mid-seventies.

The same in the House. A few crazies will be losing -- Bachmann and, I hope, Sali -- but the other losses will come mostly from the 'moderates,' because if a district was centrist enough to elect a moderate, Bush has driven it to the democrats, and to voters who want to punish anyone with an (R) after his name.

The Steve Kings come from Districts that can't be reached by sanity so after the 'wipe-out' tomorrow, they'll represent a much larger proportion of the survivors.

Posted by: Prup (aka Jim Benton) on November 3, 2008 at 11:51 AM | PERMALINK

No one reports any longer what I recall from a day or two after the Palin choice was announced, McCain telling some reporter of Palin that "She's my soul mate".

He has a strange sense in picking soul mates and role models. What does this say about his real values?

Posted by: stvwlf on November 3, 2008 at 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

i'm so old that i can remember when jet pilots were role models for young plumbers, and not the other way around!

Posted by: mellowjohn on November 3, 2008 at 12:21 PM | PERMALINK

"i'm so old that i can remember when jet pilots were role models for young plumbers, and not the other way around!"

Good comment, mellow. I was thinking something similar the other day; jet pilots, are real alpha males, the 'best of the best'. Now I look at Bush and McCain.. maybe jet piloting isn't all that difficult.

Posted by: kenkohl on November 3, 2008 at 12:43 PM | PERMALINK

The degree to which progressive taxation is a Marxist idea, is the same degree to which public education is (but so is the nationalization of banks). I'm for public education, and so was Marx - does that make me a Marxist? Joe's not too much into logic.

I really liked how Obama transitioned from public financing for education to public financing for health care. Americans support strong social programs, and using one that has universal support to lead into another that is gaining in support is building a strong argument.

Posted by: winstongator on November 3, 2008 at 12:47 PM | PERMALINK

Sarahcudda Palinocchio and Sam "Joe the Plumber" Weasel-backer.

Posted by: Mel on November 3, 2008 at 1:02 PM | PERMALINK

Unfortunately, Joe is all too typical of a certain class of Republican blue collars. He is not concerned that the Republicans are raping him over and over right now, only that next month (next year? next century?) when he is rich that he doesn’t have to pay any taxes to help out poor schmucks like he used to be.

It reminds me of the old joke about the hitchhiker along the lonesome freeway out west. A series of cars stop, in each case the driver asks “Are you a democrat or a republican?” When the hitchhiker replies democrat, the cars promptly speed off. Final a women in a Cadillac pulls over and asks him if he is a democrat or a republican. This time he replies republican, and she promptly invites into the car. A few miles up the road she pulls over and seduces him. Afterward she asks him why he is chuckling. Well, he replies, “I’ve only been a republican for five minutes and I’ve already fucked someone.”

Posted by: J. Frank Parnell on November 3, 2008 at 1:09 PM | PERMALINK

"Joe the Plumber" IS the personification of the Republican "base." An ignorant loser who will never be anything but a loser, wallowing in his hatred of those who can achieve what he never will, blaming his failures on anyone not like him (i.e., nonwhites). He's what's known in sociology as the "lumpen proletariat."

And when it comes to "role models", take a good look at ol' Joe. Doesn't he look EXACTLY like Vic Mackey, from "The Shield"???

The good news is that a week from today, people will be saying "Joe who???"

Posted by: TCinLA on November 3, 2008 at 2:11 PM | PERMALINK

Excuse me, but remind again why I should care what this guy thinks?

And why does the press keep putting this joker on the front page?

Posted by: SteveB on November 3, 2008 at 5:30 PM | PERMALINK

The Plumber McCain's ROLE MODEL!!!

Oh. My. God.

John McCain is the kindest, bravest, most wonderful human being I have ever known.

Posted by: The Manchurian Electorate on November 3, 2008 at 6:34 PM | PERMALINK

My favorite day of the whole campaign was when Joe the Plumber stood up McCain and put my hometown, Defiance, Ohio, on the map.

Thanks, Joe!!

Lookin' good, Defiance.

Posted by: McCain is an Idiot on November 3, 2008 at 6:41 PM | PERMALINK



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