One more: 52% of Evangelicals who voted for McCain/Palin think Obama is a Muslim.

* John Edwards is coming out of hiding. Can he make a "comeback"? (I kind of doubt it.)

Too bad about him. I think he would have made an excellent AG.

See Nate Silver's post on fivethirtyeight.com about Prop 8 myths for a debunking of the emerging but wrong conventional wisdom that it was blacks & Hispanics in the Obama voting surge that led Prop 8 to pass:

Now, it's true that if new voters had voted against Prop 8 at the same rates that they voted for Obama, the measure probably would have failed. But that does not mean that the new voters were harmful on balance -- they were helpful on balance. If California's electorate had been the same as it was in 2004, Prop 8 would have passed by a wider margin.

It was the older generation & more experienced voters that put Prop 8 ahead. Younger & newer voters were against it.

I just heard on CNN that there might be a cabinet announcement on Tuesday.

Hmm..Sorry Steve--Olbermann's comment on Prop. 8 is NULL and VOID so far as I'm concerned.

I just can't get past the fact the guy actually chose to NOT vote, after he makes a living (as in 7 million a year) talking about the importance of such legislation--along with every other political issue...

He is the epitome of hypocrisy. He is nothing but the flip side of his nemesis, Bill O'Reilly. All talk, all drama, all flexing of the muscles...and the rest is Bull-Hockey. He talks big for months and months about how important all of this is--he does a special comment wherein he gets to hear himself drone on with an air of self-import about Prop. 8 which has me near tears...and then I learn...huh? What? He didn't vote? Keith Olbermann didn't vote? And he is advertising the same?!!

He Chose to NOT vote? (For esoteric, symbolic reasons, naturally...).

Say what? Is he insane? Does he not see arrogance in that? I am so insulted and I'm sorry I took him for his word. I am sorry I let his words matter.

They were all scripted and clearly
he speaks not from the heart.

If they mattered to him, he would have voted.

Olbermann is just another automaton who speaks from the wallet.
=================================================

If Olbermann cared that much about 'Love'--well then, where was his love to vote?

The last thing California needs/needed would be the likes of the guy who talks strong but does nothing with his vote. He's full of it.

California should be very, very happy they don't have more Keith Olbermann's who feel entitled enough to not vote (and make up stupid reasons why not) during this, the

MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION (ON SO MANY LEVELS) OF OUR LIFETIME.

What a disgrace.

Olbermann lives in New York, so his vote wouldn't have made much difference to Prop 8, or anything else. A lot of journalists don't vote. Something about preserving objectivity and an uncommitted "outsider" status, although I've never understood it.

Edwards would make a great AG, and I think it's not out of the question, although many others would probably disagree. (Joan Walsh had him as the Gatekeeper of Mordor yesterday.) He can and probably will make a "comeback," but not in elected office. Look for him to become the Al Gore of poverty and economic inequality and a champion of Appalachia. God knows it needs one, after weeks of liberal bashing. Y'all oughta know better. Where does all the good folk (excuse me, roots) music come from?

Ericfree:

The point is not where Olbermann lives--the point is he didn't vote!!!

If you don't vote, you don't get to complain about things like Prop 8 not passing. You don't get to preach and shame those who didn't vote for it.

You don't get to talk about love, when you yourself decide to act from a place of cynicism and indifference.

A lot of Journalists don't vote you say? Nope. Wrong.

For goodness sake, even the President-Elect and those closest to him voted.

He is not really a journalist anyway. He's a sports commentator who got a gig on MSNBC.

Olbermann and Palin should hook up in the future--they have a lot in common--they like to hear themselves talk.

Why would John Edwards make a good AG? Other than the fact that he's a lawyer, what in his background says "AG"?

It sounds like a variation on a dream ticket. Even if he is highly qualified, the bad feelings about cheating on his wife and the questions would linger and negatively affect his performance.

If you don't vote, you don't get to complain about things like Prop 8 not passing. You don't get to preach and shame those who didn't vote for it.

There is something to the idea that, if you had a chance to for or against a particular issue or candidate, and you choose not to, you don't have much basis for complaint about the results. But there is certainly no grounds for saying that you shouldn't complain about the results of a different election than the one you chose not to vote in, on an issue you had no opportunity to vote on, merely because that election was on the same day as one you chose not to vote on.

If, say, New York had elected a slate of McCain electors, and Olbermann was commenting on that, the "don't vote, don't complain" mantra would be properly applied.

Applying it to the actual situation at hand, though, just reveals the person using it to be an idiot.

The special comment on 8 is a great criticism of the measure, regardless of who said it. The fact that olbermann has the showbiz personality to bring all the more passion to the performance only increases its effectiveness, regardless of his voting status or journalistic integrity, IMO.

sorry, cmdicely--no dice.

Olbermann not voting is so antithetical to his whole stance that it simply absurd to me.

I can't put it more plainly.

And I won't comment further on this.

Guns are flying off the shelves?

Probably because of this.

Obermann's vote is purely symbolic, not a pragmatic issue at all. You have no ground to complain about him voting or not voting.

Frankly I bet you didn't like Obermann to begin with and were just looking for an excuse to rationalize it.

And I won't comment further on this.
Posted by: Olbermann not voting is Antithetical to his entire stance

Cross your heart and hope to die?

he's waiting until after Thanksgiving because he doesn't want the right to call them turkeys

Edwards needs to change his name to Kid E and make a comeback as a hound-dog entertainer with a babe on each arm, like Kid Rock. If you're going to be Edwards, you gotta take it all the way. But I don't want to see him come back with a greasy mea culpa and a learned-my-lesson, "I'm sorry if I hurt anyone" apology-as-excuse. Don't insult our intelligence.

The new Democratic Congress' honeymoon will end before it starts if they leave Lieberman in his chairmanship.

* Interesting observation: "By bankrolling opposition to same-sex marriage in California, the LDS church has earned some serious cred in social conservative circles."
*
*
*
* Romney is helping finance Norm Coleman's recount effort in Minnesota? I guess 2012 positioning really is underway.

Gee, do you suppose there could be a connection?

I just don't understand the view that people who don't vote should forfeit their right to express an opinion on the issues. Even the issues that one is not eligible to vote for.

And what about Proposition 8? In my view, it violates the Fourteenth Amendment, Section 1, of the United States Constitution (remember, the U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and trumps any state constitution). So maybe I wouldn't have voted "no" if I lived in California, because to do so would have validated the initiative in the first place, even though I'm opposed to it. I'm not sure what I would have done to protest it. Voting "no" certainly wouldn't do justice to what I think of it. Olbermann's special comment, however, did, and I'm thankful for it.

It's not black and white. Many people don't vote as a protest against unfit candidates. What's wrong with that?

And so on. It's kind of like flag burning. It's a symbolic way of expressing an opinion. Nobody should be ostracized for exercising their rights.

Guns really are flying off the shelves.

Ya know, in general I've got no problem with private citizens owning guns. But why does a civilian need an assault rifle? What are they planning on attacking? Or imagine that they will need to attack? It makes me think that the people buying such weapons are loony tunes... and then I think that maybe it's not such a good idea for psychos to have assault rifles.

"By bankrolling opposition to same-sex marriage in California, the LDS church has earned some serious cred in social conservative circles."

Although I am opposed to Prop 8 and voted against it (we don't need government telling churches who they can/cannot marry), I must admit that the Church of LDS impressed me. It takes real moral certitude - misguided though it may be - for a church to give up its tax exempt status just so it can promulgate its beliefs. On the plus side, with the current economy in the shape it's in, the federal and state governments can really use the new tax revenue that they're going to be receiving from the Church of LDS. Amen.

Hey waddaya know? Ethics guidelines BEFORE a scandal forces you to use your superb apologizin skilz to reclaim your honor.

Now that's change, my friends, you can believe in.

I'd object to the idea that Olbermann is just the flip side of BOR; BOR is entirely humorless and takes himself a lot more seriously.

Well, that, and he's a freakin bigot. Olbermann is testy but generally not averse to self correction nor motivated by simmering hatred.

"But why does a civilian need an assault rifle?"

I dunno, maybe because he wants one? Why does he need an RV? An SUV that is way more dangerous to everyone around him than a Prius? A big screen TV?

Need has nothing to do with the exercise of a RIGHT. If I only allowed you the use of a quill and scroll and forbade you the use of a megahorn, microphone, soapbox, PC, email account, Internet, and letter to the editor, could I still say you were protected by the 1A? After all, you don't NEED all those things to express yourself.

I think if you educated yourself about what people actually do with their rifles you'd realize that your comment is actually denigrating a wide swath of sport shooters who never kill anything further up the foodchain than a paper target. The most commonly used sporting rifle in the US is...can you guess? Yup, that's right--the AR15. A semi auto civilian version of the M16/M4 platform (which are select fire instead of only semi auto). Assault rifles are by definition fully auto. Civilian target shooting rifles are NOT, they're only full auto. They might look scary to you, but they're not the same as military weapons. Also, semi auto rifles are blinkin expensive as hell (ask me how I know). Rifles of ALL kinds, not just semi auto ones, make up about 1% of all guns used in crimes. If you really thought we should be banning guns, you'd be better served going after the guns criminals actually use (handguns, about 70% of crime guns, and to a lesser extent shotguns).

Civilian ownership of fully auto firearms is so restricted as to be essentially forbidden under the NFA of 1934 (as in, for the last 75 years or so). Betcha didn't know that. Josh Sugarmann of the VPC once quipped (and probably regretted tipping his hand...but then again...he's an idiot) that the gun ban movement profits from the general public's confusion about the differences between semi auto and full auto select fire weapons.

Have someone knowledgeable take you target shooting sometime. It'll open your mind a bit. And you'll find it's an addicting, fun hobby enjoyed peaceably and lawfully by millions of Americans every day.

Ooops.

"Civilian target shooting rifles are NOT, they're only full auto."

That should read only semi auto, not full. Sorry...long day.

Mentally unbalanced, murderous gun owners are unfortunately not a good demographic for the Democratic Party.

Pure ugly American shame

GM shares fell 44 cents to $2.92, while Ford Motor Co. fell 13 cents to $1.80.

Dirt. Poor. Stupid. Cheap.
Any buyers?

Next time you hear someone say they want to see the Federal Govt. run like a business remind them of Ford Motor and GM.

I mean really:

Into the face of peak oil, rising Chinese and Indian demand for oil, and the success of the Prius, these born-in-the-USA corporate CEOs continued to make Stupid Urban Vehicles as if tomorrow didn't exist.

Of course when you have a golden parachute that rewards incompetency, and a Federal Government that will bail you out no matter what... tomorrow really doesn't exist, does it?
You live only to plunder for today.

American know how?
How about American know-nothing pricks?
God, how absolutely fricking embarrassing...

The Edwards comeback scenario.

Elizabeth Edwards gets appointed to Sec of HHS. Then either John gets appointed to a federal appeals court or HHS when his wife dies.

Shit. I was thinking of shorting GM around $18 a share...chickened out.

Has anyone noticed all the bushcons lie all the time?
No need to answer but why do people still listen to bushcons.....at all?
It's not like bushcons are going to start doing what's right if you listen.
They do not know right.
That do what's right thing is missing from bushcons.
And bushcons don't notice.
Isn't the scenery just like kenron lays work on a grand scale?
Same pep talks right down to the last instant before the trap door opened and the bottom didn't fall out, there was no bottom.
And of course all the great minds that put bushcon in place know exactly how this happened.
To do it this big and bad takes years of planning.

Re Edwards: What did Newt Gingrich do to wash his sins clean, again?

Hi, armed liberal here. Thanks to the poster above that informed others of the differences between military weapons and sporting arms. Other than my shotgun, all of my firearms are .22 caliber, either bolt or semi-auto. Frankly, I think the NRA is banging the gong to help boost membership...I really dont think gun control is particularly high on Obama's "to do" list.

As for Edwards, i would appreciate if he just dissapeared. He showed an incredible lack of judgment to enter the presidential race knowing he had a serious skeleton in his closet. Humans are weak and I appreciate they make mistakes (poster boy here), but knowing what he knew about what the opposition did to Clinton...stupid.

Elizabeth Edwards gets appointed to Sec of HHS. Then either John gets appointed to a federal appeals court or HHS when his wife dies

Brilliant idea, although I'd rather she just divorce the prick now. His day came and went. What he did to Elizabeth is just plain unforgivable. We need good, honest folks in the Obama administration. He's not one of 'em.

[...] I must admit that the Church of LDS impressed me. It takes real moral certitude - misguided though it may be - for a church to give up its tax exempt status just so it can promulgate its beliefs. -- Josef, @20:09

But it *hadn't*. The individual members of the church have exercised their SCOTUS-given right to use dollars instead of words (money as free speech) but *the church* has stayed on the IRS-circumscribed edges of the argument.

My (admittedly warped) sense of humour has been tickled twice daily since Nov 5th on that issue, till my sides are nearly split from laughing (even though it's through tears, given the basic *injustice* of all such laws/amendments)...

First, I read (in NYT), that the Mormon Church has supported Prop8 with big bucks. Two days later, in the corrections (page 4?), I read that it's not The Church; it's the individual members of it. But, *in the same paper*, ca p.12, I read, *again*, that it was *the Mormon Church*, which supported Prop8 with money. I expect the correction (not the institution; individuals) to kick in in another 48hrs, leaving the populace with the impression that the Mormons are screwing the electoral process, while keeping the church's butt clear off any IRS-driven wrath.

The "Saints" may have been "Latter", but they wouldn't have amassed the kind of money they had, without being "Smarter". Also, you betcha.

LDS DIDN'T have cred among social conservatives?

Re Edwards: What did Newt Gingrich do to wash his sins clean, again?

He married his mistress. (Well, both mistresses -- his second wife was his mistress, then he got another one and divorced his second wife to marry the new mistress.) Plus he tried to negotiate the divorce settlement with his first wife while she was in the hospital recovering from cancer surgery. I guess standing by your wife through her illness before cheating on her is a no-no for Republicans -- you've gotta do your cheating while she's still sick or it doesn't count.

I'm still in shock that Obama won.

I'm so proud to be an American now.

I really hope others will remember this time--ti's truly amazing...and I think we should all drink this in...

And I will never forget pushing that button for Obama in the voting booth.

Never.

This IS indeed a defining moment for all of us.

Have someone knowledgeable take you target shooting sometime. It'll open your mind a bit.

No, thanks. It doesn't take a gun to open my mind to anything.

If you really thought we should be banning guns, you'd be better served going after the guns criminals actually use

If you really thought Josef was advocating banning guns, you'd be better served by going back to school and learning how to read. He said no such thing.

It's a sick world where Gingrich, who has a record and should be stripped, beaten and chased out to Washington for just his utterances(nevermind his policy horrors), is rehabilitated, and John Edwards and Elliot Sptizer aren't.

Just sayin'.

And, as one of the commenters at 'Balloon Juice' said "You have to remember that guns are both weapons and fetish objects".
To the devotee, there is no possible regulation that could possibly meet their conception of the 2nd amendment, the case law aside. The last time we saw this sort of buying orgy was before the collapse of Civilization triggered by the Y2K computer problems. The gun dealers did great then.
(BTW, I'm a rural guy and gun owner. If you own livestock and are over an hour from the veterinarian, you need to be prepared to kill and injured animal occasionally. It sucks, but that's the reality. I can see why some urban centers would feel the need to regulate gun ownership. That the NRA would try to make hay and avoid total irrelevancy in it's political influence, after backing the wrong horse, is also understandable.)

"No, thanks. It doesn't take a gun to open my mind to anything."

Your choice. But it takes a real bigot to say "I don't like or have an interest in something, so you don't need to have it." If you don't have an interest in something...great. But passing judgment and denigrating folks who are interested in something you're not (as often happens around here) is bigotry, pure and simple.

"If you really thought Josef was advocating banning guns, you'd be better served by going back to school and learning how to read. He said no such thing."

Pretty clearly the reading comp problem here is yours. I rather obviously was discussing the hypothetical (that AWBs serve to fight crime, because in point of fact they don't), not assuming he held that view. Gotta love people who condescend after missing the obvious.

"And, as one of the commenters at 'Balloon Juice' said "You have to remember that guns are both weapons and fetish objects"."

More denigration and bigotry. Are you fetishing the guns you own? What the hell would that mean? Are gear heads fetishing their cars? Golf players their clubs? Chess players their chess sets?

Not sure what purpose such a comment serves.

"To the devotee, there is no possible regulation that could possibly meet their conception of the 2nd amendment, the case law aside."

Really? Even the NRA supports the NFA of 1934. I don't know any gun owners who think making it illegal for felons, alcoholics, deranged people, etc. to own guns.

What you do see is us pointing out the hard truth--those urban center gun regulations you mentioned don't work any better than drug regulation, hooker regulation, etc. Taking guns away from everyone in an effort to keep young urban men involved in the drug trade from killing each other is stupid.

As for the NRA's relevancy, the best way to make that happen is for the Dems to drop gun control like a hot potato. Clinging to a failed social policy that riles up the right is bad policy and bad practice. Next to the AARP, you'll be hard pressed to find a bigger or more powerful lobby, so I don't think you can make much of an argument that they're irrelevant.

It's about choice. Don't like guns? Fine. Don't have one.

Dang Sebastian, I hit a nerve.

A lot of guys (and I know some, even some gay guys)act as if their gun was a metaphoric penis. Dudes who feel weak and threatened often buy a lot of guns, and use them as a significator of masculine power. And react to any suggestion of gun regulation as a symbolic castration.
There is a literature on this, for what it's worth. I have, god knows, my quirks, but I try to keep them out of effecting public policy. Guns, as your writing reveals, are a significator of a culture: the sort of thing one Kim du Toit called "-guns, self-defense, politics, beautiful women, sports, warfare, hunting, and power tools—all the things that being a man entails. All this stuff gives me pleasure. " I think being a man is more than that, and a lot more, but I guess I'm clueless liberal.
Hunting is a good thing (deer hunting, anyway) because deer are an animal that needs a predator to have healthy population (cue the Lion King) 'Circle of Life') and H. Sapiens is the only predator we have, at least, in north Georgia. (I've not hunted in years, but I'll chreefully eat deer meat, if offered any.)The NRA boys around here have been leading hunters to believe that Mr. Obama will take their guns. I see no evidence that this is the case. I'll admit that the whole assault rifle argument turns into hair splitting. The AARP has it's own problems, but I keep hoping the NRA membership will stop flogging fear and a vision of Gun Culture that is pathological. At the very least, it need to recognize the role of guns and the gun traffic in crime, and join in some rational regulation of it.

"Dang Sebastian, I hit a nerve."

It's just a tired, nonsensical, bigoted argument that gets old after its be shown to be bunk so many times. Don't you get annoyed when you read right wingers prattling on about having to fight them there so you don't have to fight them here? About how Global Warming is really evil left wing scientists quashing debate? Gets old doesn't it?

The gun-as-penis-substitute argument doesn't make any more sense, and is just as tired. Give it a rest.

"Dudes who feel weak and threatened often buy a lot of guns, and use them as a significator of masculine power. And react to any suggestion of gun regulation as a symbolic castration."

And some guys buy Corvettes, Ferraris, boats, ostentatious houses, etc. So what? What's your point?

I don't know anyone like that. I do know people who enjoy target shooting. Who like being able to protect themselves. Who enjoy hunting.

And I know lots of people in those categories who are women--are they having penis envy? Can you see what a silly point it is you're making?

Just like some people might drive the Corvette because it's a fun, cool car to drive...some people just own guns because it's a fun and practical choice they've made for themselves. But when you harp on some arbitrary defined subset like you are, you ignore the rest and it's a glaring omission.

There's plenty of literature on the firearm as an essential part of our culture too. Again...so what?

"I have, god knows, my quirks, but I try to keep them out of effecting public policy. "

Well, I have quirks too. I don't eat meat. You don't see me trying to outlaw you having a hamburger. Not sure what you're getting at here. I don't think owning guns is a quirk.

"I think being a man is more than that, and a lot more, but I guess I'm clueless liberal."

What, more than owning guns, power tools, and seducing women? I would agree. Again...so what? I don't know any gun owners who would disagree with you. Again...what the heck is your point?

"The NRA boys around here have been leading hunters to believe that Mr. Obama will take their guns."

Lots of hunters hunt with semi auto rifles. Obama wants to ban those. Lots of hunters carry while they hunt. Obama wants to ban that. Now...does he have the political capital to pull it off? No. But that's BECAUSE the NRA and other similar organizations are unified and influential. And because frankly even members of his own party tend to think that's not good public policy. The fact that he probably will be smart enough to not try it doesn't mean in his heart of hearts it's what he believes. I'm not partisan enough to condemn the man over it, I'm simply unwilling to pretend that he and I don't have a substantial policy difference here.

As for the role of guns in crime, another tired argument. Whatever that role may be, taking guns away from you and me isn't going to make Pookie and Dey Dey quit blasting each other down the street from me here in Baltimore. What exactly is that rational regulation you speak of? Making it illegal for felons to possess firearms? Instant background checks? No opposition here or at the NRA.

And Thomas "I think I am still relevant" Friedman goes on "Morning Joe" and cries because he is sooo worried that the Democrats will try to nation-build in Afghanistan.

Poor Edwards, because of the times he can't even go back to work for a hedge fund.

Isn't he an ambulance chaser by trade? I don't figure he'll be out of work for long in any circumstance.

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