On the positive side, they're probably planning to cut back on expenses in their personal lives:

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2008/11/18/rich-cut-back-on-payments-to-mistresses/

If you look at what these top executives are paid you'll see just how er... 'valuable' their time is... to thier companies.

Why, they are generating tremendous profits every second of the day. They can't waste their time standing in line with the common folk.

I worked at a place where we (peons) figured out that it cost the company a grand every time the CEO took a crap. However, suggestions to incorporate a toilet into his executive chair were ignored.

This would make for a really good SNL skit.

How absurd.

they couldn't even plane-pool? dont they know you get to use the special diamond taxiways?

They won't care if they're replaced...they'll still get their money, and probably a new gig at another company.

You know what would have made their presentations to Congress even better? If they had changed into some really old, worn-out clothes and maybe beat up shoes with holes in the soles.

Next time, boys, Go Greyhound!

Remember when the town of Springfield couldn't plow their snowy streets because Mr. Burns had bought the town's snowplows so he and Smithers could play Snowplow Polo in the house?

This is like that.

Save us, Mr. Plow!

Its not like they went out and bought the jets just for this trip. It would make no economic sense to fly commercial when you have already purchased a private jet. The jet is an asset like any other asset. If you have it, the best way to make use of it and your investment is to actually use it. They are paying for the jet whether they are flying in it or not.

This comment is not intended to justify the original purchase. That may or may not have made sense depending on cost comparisons and the like.

What? They didn't use their Flying Cars?

Where's my Flying Cars?

I would think the first order of business in considering a corporate bail-out is to publicize the wealth of each of the senior executives of the major corporations requesting tax-payer money. How much does each pay in personal and corporate income taxes? Where is their money invested, at what rate of return and who manages it? How many people do they employ for their private and personal services, such as gardening, home repair and maintenance, childcare, chauffeurs, pilots, spousal/domestic partner support, grocery shopping, personal security and so forth? How much of their labor expenses are outsourced and/or out of this country? What would it cost to bring it back "home" and pay U.S. based workers? Is the money saved by using offshore resources used to benefit the domestic markets? Are employees' benefits enhanced with these savings? Or, do they go to pay investors and stockholders, who contribute nothing productive to the production of products? These and many other questions are screaming for answers. If they want my tax money, then they will answer to me and will not be allowed to hide anything. The IRS can look anywhere they want for my assets. I expect nothing less of these people.

I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation
peace,
st john

One of the best stories about this sort of thing is "Barbarians at the Gate," which was made into a movie by HBO:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106356/

The story of the RJR/Nabisco fiasco 20 years ago...at one point, the German shepherd gets a ride on the corporate jet...

Its not like they went out and bought the jets just for this trip. It would make no economic sense to fly commercial when you have already purchased a private jet. The jet is an asset like any other asset. If you have it, the best way to make use of it and your investment is to actually use it. They are paying for the jet whether they are flying in it or not.

1. Jet fuel isn't free, nor are airport fees

2. Maybe, before begging for a bailout, the corporations could look at trimming the fat from their operations, by, oh, I don't know, SELLING the damn planes, just for starters? Might be a symbolic gesture, but I'll take a symbolic gesture of humility over the other symbolic gestures that these tycoons keep pointing in my direction.

I know this is slightly off topic.

This morning I used 10 minutes of a 15 minute break to re-supply our communal coffee needs at work. I calculated that "we" are spending 40 cents per brewing on a 6 cup urn. We brew about 8 pots per week or 3.20/week + a miniscule amount of electricity.

Everyone chips in to the kitty and I use extra to splurge and buy 1/2 and 1/2 and sugar (nutrasweet= some else's contribution) as possible.

The simple act of keeping up with the coffee saves money for all of us.

No one has "the job" we all do it. We even compost the grounds!

The Big Three deserve no sympathy from frugal Americans.

You want money? Then build the next generation of cars...now.

How much of a carbon-footprint does a corporate jet flying Auto executive generate anyway?

Another case of
Give me more of what you got. St John hits it on the head. YOu want my money?? What are YOU hiding, hoarding, and having that I don't? YOU cut back yourself and help your people and your business before you come asking me for a hand-out. If you can't do that, you deserve nothing from the taxpayers' who bleed, sweat,and cry to make a living for their families.

I work in the building that is GM's headquarters in Detroit. If anyone thinks these guys are serious about changing the way they do business, you need only look at the garage where they park their vehicles. Nearly every single one of them drives a big SUV - Escalade, Yukon, Acadia, Suburban. These cars are maintained and cleaned whenever the execs request the service. In fact, one can always identify a vehicle driven by an exec of the Big 3 in the winter as they're the only cars on the road that are clean.

I realize that use of a vehicle is part of their compensation package. But they just don't get it. Smaller vehicles? More fuel efficiency? Nope, the bigger the better. Every time I see a car come out of that garage, hubris is the word that comes to mind. That and over-compensation.

They could have "jet-pooled," at least.

Much of the upper management of these companies will need to be replaced, if only to make it clear that there is accountability.

However Mulally probably isn't one of the guys we're talking about. He was brought into Ford only two years ago and he came from outside the auto industry (from Boeing, where he had a very strong track record).

Mulally is an idiot (aren't probably half the CEOs?) and Ford is assured of going out of business if they keep him as CEO. He fucked-up Boeing something special when he was there.

I'm willing to extend Detroit the bridge loans, but only if all the CEOs and senior management (the $1 million + a year tier) agree to either work for nothing until the companies turn around or agree to be replaced. After all, if they're all so fucking smart and valuable to the company, why are they all doing so poorly? Remember, Mulally was brought in three years ago to help turn Ford around.

They also must swear-off research and development of any non-hybrid or all electric vehicles. Further, they must cease production of "muscle" cars and large SUVs and trucks. Also, just to make this "fair," the domestic divisions of all foreign auto makers will be held to the same conditions concerning what kind of cars they can build here and import from their home countries. This is an energy/environment/national security issue as much as it is a domestic economic issue.

The UAW must end all feather-bedding and reconsider it's pension and health benefits.

If they all can't manage this, then they can go fuck themselves.

I have no hopes for any of this because it's bold and would exact a toll on the people required to implement these changes. None of them really want to change anything. They all want it to be 1970, 1998 or 2003.

Yarf, I think the point is that Louis XVI never rolled up his sleeves and neither will this guy. They should be proving that everyone from the CEO to the ad men and down to the engineers is committed to making GM stock and products worth buying. Instead, it looks like he's flying straight back to Versailles, almost as if he knows he will have more money than 99.9% of Americans will ever make in their lives no matter what happens.

If he'd flown coach instead, would you be criticizing him for wasting time? I doubt it. I know that the reflexive urge to defend the gold-yacht club is firmly ingrained amongst Ayn Rand fans, but honestly, this kind of largesse will not trickle down to his employees and stockholders. Quite the opposite, unfortunately.

the corporations could look at trimming the fat from their operations, by, oh, I don't know, SELLING the damn planes, just for starters?

Sure, they could use Sarah Palin's account to put them on E-Bay.

Look, arguements like this are too easy and not helpful. As I understand it, the Dems are offering LOAN that would come with strings attached and certain expectations. What the hell is the problem with that? If it can save the American auto industry isn't it worth a try?

Sure they have to reform and cut costs, but I don't think Chapter 11 is the way to go.

I understand why execs, who need to oversee production plants in all parts of the country and the world need jets.

I do not see why these jets should be used to ferry these men (and they're all men) to beg our government for cash or on skiing vacations or taxis for their children.

Grr.

And when was the last time these guys paid back a loan from the government?

About Mulally, there are a lot of strong opinions about him, but he did successfully manage the 777 program. He left for Ford after being passed over twice at Boeing (someone didn't like him). Meanwhile back at Boeing the 787 program has turned into a complete multiple level cluster f--k.

Via Atrios, Rahm Emmanuel actually got this one right:

From the WSJ article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122706319966040053.html

"He said business leaders should help find solutions to the middle-class squeeze or face a revolt."

Revolt is the perfect word. Just keep pushing our buttons, you dumb-ass CEOs, and you're going to find out what it means to be on the wrong end of a pitchfork.

Too bad there are plenty of middle-class folks that are all-too-happy to make excuses for these reptiles, all in the name of the holy free market.

OK OK. They could sell the jets for a loss like Palin did. But since they have them they might as well use them. Why ask them to make token gestures? The main criticism of GM, Ford and Chrysler is that it can't produce good cars at a competitive price. Let's keep the issues in order here.

The burning question is whether they can be kept alive long enough for an outside team of qualified people to assess their viability. That team has to be chosen by Obama. In the meantime we need to keep them on drip. If they go bankrupt it will be the end. Customers simply won't buy cars from a bankrupt company.

Perhaps the answer is to let them go 11 and have the US government provide the bridge loans that would normally be provided by banks.

There are serious issues that need addressing. These turkeys are going to be out of power soon enough that their choice of travel arrangements is a diversion.

www.driftglass.blogspot.com

Has a fascinating piece on why it is absolutely necessary to bail out the big three auto companies. Primarily to save jobs for them and related companies. He explains what changes would be necessary to pull this off like reduction in CEO salaries and compensation as well as the CEOs themselves.
A national healthcare plan like mandating Medicare for all would virtually take away the need for bailout money. What the hell is congress waiting on...a complete economic collapse??

Two words for the CEOs of failing auto companies: minimum wage. As in, what their job performance is really worth.

-Z

I actually thought the following comment on the Volokh Conspiracy (of all places!) in response to Mitt Romney's editorial in yesterday's NY times was interesting:

Robert Farrell (mail):
Bankruptcy is a good idea, but there are a couple other elements that should be included, one Romney mentions, and one he doesn't.

First, as Romney says, restructuring should include profit sharing or stock for all employees, cuts in executive compensation and eliminating executive perks. If the unions have secured contracts that have bankrupted the owners (I don't buy this, but if so, good for them) then the logical solution is to transfer the stock to the employees in exchange for givebacks. Guaranteed pensions and healthcare benefits are assets, just like an annuity. Owners who want to buy back those assets should pay for them with their own assets -- their stock.

Second, comprehensive healthcare reform. Without it, every large employer with pension costs that include healthcare expenses is going down, as are a fair percentage of any business that tries to provide its employees with good health insurance (whether because they want to or because, as in the case of the automakers, they are contractually obligated to do so.
11.19.2008 2:50pm

(from here: http://volokh.com/posts/1227122740.shtml )

If this doesn't illustrate how pathetically out of touch these three guys are with America's new realities, I don't know what does. I'm not talking about them arriving in their luxury jets; I'm talking about them being so oblivious as to not realize media would LATCH onto this (relative)triviality and use it to negate their arguments for a loan/bailout/rescue/Christmas gift -- not just bloggers but all the tv I've been watching today. As someone who spent about 20 years in public relations,sometimes getting the bigshots to take good advice, sometimes not -- I just cannot believe the stupidity of essentially "asking for it." It made me wonder if some poor pr advisor really did beg these goofs to fly commercial and they couldn't be bothered to listen.

Hari kari time. If they really care about the people and their company, they'll fall on their sword. Each one of these three guys should be required to walk away, no parachute, no pension, no benefits, before any of these companies sees a single cent.

mak >"They could have "jet-pooled," at least."

That might have opened them up to legal charges of collusion. Seriously.

It was pointed out to me several years ago by a Detroit savvy person that the heads of the auto companies don`t ever huddle in non-public situations due to a long history of legal problems dealing with public suspicion of their behavior. Apparently their legal staff wouldn`t even let them have lunch together or visit a movie theatre at the same time for appearances sake. I doubt it is any different these days.

I`m not attempting to defend these folks or the companies they head (whose behavior clearly is indefensible), simply trying to provide some clarity. Take it for what you will.

"...it`s the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine..." - REM

For those who are saying "It's no big deal that they flew the private jets . . ."

These guys make a huge amount of money to be leaders of the corporation, effectively selling the company's goals and decisions to all the different audiences - the shareholders, the work force, the potential customers, the dealers, etc. They are in those positions, and compensated accordingly, because they are supposed to understand the nuances of that function. They failed to do that here. Getting the little details right is what they are supposed to do.

It reminds me of the Don Imus imbroglio a while back. He was paid to operate at the very highest level of broadcasting. He was paid to know where lines are, when to push them and when not to push them. He misjudged, and deserved to lose his job for that alone, even if you ignore the ugliness of his actual words.

Btw, when one of the panel members suggested that no employee of any car company should receive more than $1 million in combined salary, bonus, and stock options (he may have said benefits, too -- I'm not sure) -- it was interesting to see the little lost orphan cub look that crossed these guys' faces.

Jonathan Cohn and other apologists overlook the CURRENT transgressions at the formerly Big Three.

A couple of big ones:

1. GM continues to pound money down the rathole of a hydrogen car.

2. GM's Chevy Volt should have already been brought to market with nickel-hydride batteries. Get a foot in the door, with a cheaper version, come back later with the lithium ion batteries.

3. Ford unveiled a 65mpg diesel hybrid two years ago at auto shows. Why isn't this for sale right now?

Much more on the inanity and perversity of the Big Three at my blog, including first info on the coming Prius 3.0 and a 140mpg hybrid scooter/motorcycle.

From drift glass…by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce:
“Directly and indirectly, the economic breadth and contribution of the U.S. automotive industry is deep and far reaching across the country. U.S. automakers directly employ approximately 355,000 American workers and indirectly employ nearly 5 million additional jobs through related industries that are dependent on auto manufacturing, sales, and related activities. Over the last two decades, the automotive industry has invested nearly a quarter of a trillion dollars in the U.S. and is among this country’s top industries for R&D spending. Automakers also are among the largest purchasers of U.S.-manufactured steel, aluminum, iron, copper, plastics, rubber, electronics, and computer chips.�

"...Manufacturing directly employs 14 million America and supports 8 million more.

Each manufacturing job supports as many as four other jobs, providing a boost to local economies. For example, every 100 steel or every 100 auto jobs create between 400 and 500 new jobs in the rest of the economy. This contrasts with the retail sector, where every 100 jobs generate 94 new jobs elsewhere, and the personal and service sectors, where 100 jobs create 147 new jobs.

Well, there are a lot of good, compassionate reasons for picking those three, but if your goal is to save the Middle Class from extinction, then you…

Enact health care reform…to take the burden of wildly-overpriced employer-based health-care off the backs of American business, in order to make them more competitive in the global marketplace.

Enact education reform…because the days of a million high-school drop outs making a Middle Class living pounding anvils and running lathes is over; because the new good jobs (and the prosperity of the nation) depends entirely on a skilled and adaptable labor force.

Pour real money into a green energy portfolio…first, because tethering your manufacturing and distribution systems to a variable like oil which is controlled by hostile foreign powers is suicidal. Second, because somebody’s gonna have to actually man-u-fac-ture the solar cells, fuels cells, windmills and so forth.

To pull us back from the feudal abyss, all these pistons (and more) need to be firing harmoniously in a 21st industrial engine powered by manufacturing.

Yes, the Big Three automakers have been run by short-sighted dolts with ridiculous business models.

So has the financial sector.
So shut up and fix them already...."

Remember, Republicans want to destroy unions and union jobs which are pretty strong in the auto industry. We can fix this, yes we can.

I have already giventh a trillion dollars into
the vast Universe of the TARP and other wealthcare
monies starting with Bear Sterns and continuing up to the present dayeth so I sayeth letteth the rich

fly their tubes of joy.

Upon wings that took dreams while

our children misunderestimated the ones who

yelled "bring em on" and milked mission accomplished type displays on aircraft carrier decks.

Boehner’s hypocrisy was expected from a GOP political ass; the automaker CEOs have blown all credibility by flaunting their excesses on the way to beg for charity. They should be told to go back and get their house in order!

Hari kari time. Posted by: doubtful

That's harakiri - to cut the belly. Hari Kari used to call Cubs' games.

"That's harakiri - to cut the belly. Hari Kari used to call Cubs' games."

When you Kari too much about the Cubs, you get so Haried you just want to commit harakiri. I believe that's what happened to Hari Kari -- who is probably still yanking his Hari out from the Hara-After.

Let's take the bailout money and instead, speed up construction of Toyota's U.S. Prius plant in Mississippi. Best thing we could do for the auto industry; Toyota would be required to hire laid-off UAW employees, of course.

I just don't understand why human beings allow themselves to be so exploited by the rich and powerful, who take everything they can get away with and leave the crumbs for the peons. They call it free market capitalism, and tell us it's the best possible way to organize society, and we swallow it hook, line and sinker.

Are we just genetically wired to accept our role as worthless, spineless underlings? Do we really believe that those at the top actually earn what they take for themselves, and that we only deserve the leftovers, to be divided up among the teeming billions of us lowly losers?

I just don't get it. Does the entertainment we're provided with, the American Idol shows, the celebrity frolics, our cell phones and gadgets and pickup trucks induce a kind of satisfied lethargy in our spirits, dulling our senses so that we don't revolt, or complain, or even care with what these guys get away with?

The UAW must end all feather-bedding and reconsider it's pension and health benefits.

Unfortunately, Jeff, of all of your proposals this is the only one that will get any traction in the press and with Republicans. Ask CEOs to give up their hard-earned $40 million golden parachute? Outrageous! But ask UAW members to give back even more than they already have? That's always the right anwer.

Hari Kari used to call Cubs' games. -Jeff II

Actually, that was Harry Caray.

And I meant Hara Kari, which I believe is an accepted alternative. Ah screw it, let's just call it seppuku and be done with it. :)

Allowing the Big 3 to go bankrupt could quickly plunge the nation into another great depression. Three million jobs are just too much to risk.

The Big 3 are in the boat they're in due to their own greed. They've spent over half a century brainwashing -- against the national interest -- the American public into craving oversized gas-guzzlers. And now the chickens are coming home to roost.

To help remedy the situation, any loans should:

(1) Beginning with all new year models, require the installation as standard equipment the "idle–stop feature" common to hybrid cars. This simple feature reduces gas consumption by 17 percent. It turns off the engine when the car is stopped (and it's 37 degrees or warmer outside) and instantly restarts it when the driver steps on the gas or engages the clutch. The technology has been around for nearly a decade. The failure of car manufacturers to include it on all gas-powered cars and trucks reveals that they really do not give a hoot about fuel economy.

(2) With all new model year cars and trucks, include a real-time gas gauge that shows the actual mileage you're getting. Not only does this help drivers drive more fuel-efficiently, but it gives car buyers a more realistic estimate of gas mileage when they test drive a car.

(3) It's the top level executives at the Big Three who have shot their industry in the foot. As a condition of receiving federal government aid, the compensation of all executives earning over $200,000 a year should be reduced by 50 to 75%, or to no more than $200,000 whichever is less. They should pay for their gross incompetence where it hurts them the most. They should also surrender all stock options and other compensation perks until the government loans are repaid in full.

Those are just a few of the conditions that should be placed on any bailout of the U.S. auto industry. But bailout we must, because we cannot allow another manufacturing industry to fail. The Republicans under Reagan started this shift to a service-based economy instead of a manufacturing economy. I've long wondered is a service-based economy could thrive. I not sure it can even survive.

Why do autoworkers have to build autos? Why do we need to add more cars, even hybrids, to the already clogged roads and highways of this nation? How many of these workers could be retrained to work in the alternative fuel industries, building solar panels/photovoltaic cells, wind generator technology, installing these machines where they could begin abating our gluttony for fossil fuels? In the meantime, over-compensated corporate executives could live on what they have in reserve for years, until they also found a way to contribute to the real wealth of this nation, not the faux wealth of paper trading in stocks and bonds. Bring "real jobs" home. Train the military people in "real jobs" that are productive, not destructive. Defense is only necessary to the degree that people feel deprived of their rights and think that attacking their perceived enemies is the solution. This is not an easy answer, but it is effective over time. President-Elect Obama is demonstrating the wisdom of cooperation and communication, and the inclusion of all parties to the issues that face us.

Peace is possible in our lifetimes if we give up the notion that we have to be "right" to be happy. In many cases, the choice of happiness means giving up being "right:.

I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation
peace,
st john

Hari Kari used to call Cubs' games. -Jeff II

Actually, that was Harry Caray.

Ahhh, that was a joke.

And I meant Hara Kari, which I believe is an accepted alternative. Ah screw it, let's just call it seppuku and be done with it. :) Posted by: doubtful

Still wrong is is hara, belly, kiri, cut, from the verb kirimasu.

According to a former pilot, now plane broker, friend of mine, the G4 costs somewhere between $15,000 to $20,000 to operate 1 way flying 1000 miles.

THAT'S why it's a big deal

Well let's face it, they probably fly personal jets for their own protection at this point. Do you think they'd survive flying commercial? Someone would beat them senseless.

Yes, this is a bit silly. If you could avoid standing in line to check in, again at security for who-knows-how-long, cooling your heals at the gate, and waiting for you bags, wouldn't you? Not to mention parking the car (two hours before your flight), and enduring flight delays. These ARE expensive people; let them have their jets. When I'm a CEO I hope I'm not the first to not get one. (As if.)

And, really, there's no need to on bang on about "luxury." What do you expect for $40 million, lawn chairs?

But I do agree they should have jet-pooled. It would have been a good chance for some corporate old-boy bonding, or at least a good game of Scrabble.

Rank has it privileges!