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Tilting at Windmills

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December 4, 2008

WARREN ENDORSES HANNITY'S WARMONGERING.... Pastor Rick Warren has a reputation for being far more stable and grounded than religious right leaders and TV preachers like Pat Robertson, but it's worth remembering that he's not exactly a moderate.

Last night, on Fox News, Sean Hannity insisted that United States needs to "take out" Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Warren said he agreed. Hannity asked, "Am I advocating something dark, evil or something righteous?" Warren responded, "Well, actually, the Bible says that evil cannot be negotiated with. It has to just be stopped.... In fact, that is the legitimate role of government. The Bible says that God puts government on earth to punish evildoers. Not good-doers. Evildoers."

Matt Duss explained why Warren's comments are problematic on a variety of levels.

Does Warren really consider it part of his ministry to sanctify the inch-deep theologizing-cum-warmongering of thugs like Sean Hannity? If so, who else does Warren think Jesus would bomb?

I contacted Pastor Warren's office for clarification, specifically to find out where, exactly, the Bible says that "God puts government on earth to punish evildoers" like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. They said they'd get back to me. I'll update if and when they do. I suspect Warren was referring to Romans 13, in which the Apostle Paul admonished Christians to submit to governing authorities (Hear that Hannity? Submit!), and also addressed the power of civil government to punish criminals. This has nothing to do, as far as I know, with invading foreign countries and killing their leaders, which is the context in which Warren is speaking.

In any case, if this were a conversation between an Iranian TV host and an ayatollah in which they discussed scriptural justifications for "taking out" high ranking members of the U.S. government, you'd probably see Sean Hannity running the clip on his show -- while slowly shaking his head in pious disapproval -- as evidence of what crazy extremists those Iranians are. As it is, they'll probably be running this on Iranian TV as evidence of what crazy extremists those Americans are.

Later, Warren's office called Duss back to say the pastor was, in fact, referring to Romans 13. When Duss noted the chapter and verse make no reference to killing foreign leaders, Warren's representative said she'd have to look into it.

Something to keep in mind the next time Warren presents himself as the leader of a new breed of reasonable evangelical leaders.

Steve Benen 4:30 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (265)

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Comments

Shoot, and I kinda liked Rick. I hope he does not mature into a Falwell....

Posted by: Dave in Austin on December 4, 2008 at 4:32 PM | PERMALINK

I think you'll find the justification in Johnson 5 1/2, which is in Warren's pants.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on December 4, 2008 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

I love the way these people are fighting back and forth over Romans 13 like judges doing statutory interpretation.

People! It's the bible! It's a stupid and highly dangerous work of fiction. Fighting this on the bible-thumpers territory is a recipe for getting nowhere.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I say "bible-thumpers"? I meant "faith tradition."

Posted by: skeptic on December 4, 2008 at 4:34 PM | PERMALINK

Warren should spend more time in his prayer closet and seek a second opinion.

Posted by: AJB on December 4, 2008 at 4:41 PM | PERMALINK

Any human with the word pastor in front of his name who speaks of killing in the name of God should be defrocked!

Pastor what's his name needs to seriously stop advocating violent Christianity as a means for salvation - he is greatly and dangerously confused, as it seems he has juxtraposed his human emotional weaknesses (fear of otherness) with his understanding of the divine.

WWJD? is the question all sincere Christians should ask themselves before advocating heresay in the name of their self-perceived Christian God! -Kevo

Posted by: kevo on December 4, 2008 at 4:44 PM | PERMALINK

The question the Reverend should ask himself is not what Paul would do - as stated in Romans which Paul wrote. The correct question is what Jesus would do.

Posted by: jen f on December 4, 2008 at 4:47 PM | PERMALINK

Then I suppose that the Roman governor had every right and "Gods" approval to crucify a certain Jewish heretic?

Posted by: david richmond on December 4, 2008 at 4:49 PM | PERMALINK

Thankfully, Warren speaks for no one but Rick Warren. He is to a theologian what Hannity is to a compassionate conservative.

Posted by: polevault on December 4, 2008 at 4:50 PM | PERMALINK

Grand Moff Texan - Are you sure it wasn't in a previous "Johnson" verse, say 3.5 fully read? -Kevo

Posted by: kevo on December 4, 2008 at 4:51 PM | PERMALINK

Warren presents himself as the leader of a new breed of reasonable evangelical leaders.

With all due respect to the evengelicals who aren't completely batshit crazy, "reasonable" and "evengelical" are mutually exclusive, no matter how you breed them.

Posted by: martin on December 4, 2008 at 4:54 PM | PERMALINK

Thankfully, Warren speaks for no one but Rick Warren.

That's wishful thinking. He's the pastor of the largest and richest church in the US who is now the leading spokesman for the Religious Right in this country (his only competition is Dobson).

I admire trying to will him down to size, but the fact is, he's a rather big deal (who else, for example, was able to bring McCain and Obama to him for a joint appearance?) and is hugely influential — especially as a "theologian" no matter how fucking ignorant a theologian he might be.

I can only hope mankind survives religion because religion surely doesn't want us to.

Posted by: Jay B. on December 4, 2008 at 4:54 PM | PERMALINK

I love the way these people are fighting back and forth over Romans 13 like judges doing statutory interpretation.

No kidding. I took a shit this morning and it looked like an M. It must be sign from the awesome deity Zornax that we are to kill Mahmoud as soon as possible. When can I get on Hannity to share this important knowledge?

Fuck these religious twits. They fuck everything up, every time. It's all about them and their fucked up need for a Big Daddy to scare even stupider people into obeying their horseshit and giving them money.

Short version: if you belong to a religion, grow up and quit it. You're part of the problem.

Posted by: There, I Said It on December 4, 2008 at 4:55 PM | PERMALINK

Pastor Rick Warren is an Evildoer.

Posted by: Brojo on December 4, 2008 at 4:56 PM | PERMALINK

And this comes on the heels of Warren awarding GWB that PEACE medal.

God would have a much better reputation without followers like that.

Posted by: low-tech cyclist on December 4, 2008 at 4:58 PM | PERMALINK

They really should call it Paulianity.

Posted by: ThatGuy on December 4, 2008 at 4:59 PM | PERMALINK


This dickweed "Paul" also said some really sick and ignorant shit about women, just fyi. No surprise that issue wasn't raised when evaluating the credibility of the fuckwads whose adventures are documented on 1000+ year old scrolls written by people who proudly wiped their dirty assholes with dried leaves.

Posted by: There I Said It on December 4, 2008 at 4:59 PM | PERMALINK

There's one major problem here. Romans 13:1-3 says this:

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power?
Then isn't Warren actually arguing against the Bible when he suggests that we should take Ahmadinejad out? After all, if you accept this argument on its face, then wouldn't Ahmadinejad also be a "ruler" who is "not a terro to good works"? Or does Rick think God doesn't rule over Iran?

Warren's theological thought process is only a step above Hannity's...

Posted by: nitpicker on December 4, 2008 at 5:07 PM | PERMALINK

Shoot, and I kinda liked Rick. I hope he does not mature into a Falwell....

It's a fine line.

Posted by: ed on December 4, 2008 at 5:09 PM | PERMALINK

WWJD, indeed. And, for those who don't believe in Jesus, God or any other Higher Power, what is the humanitarian action? The law of reciprocation is a scientific principle: in lay terms, what goes around, comes around. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If I push you; you will push me back. If I feed you, you will feed me, or perhaps someone else.

Rev. Rick has lost his way, if he ever knew it, and has been caught up in the power of authority. Since I live in Orange County, CA, where Saddleback Church is located, I hear firsthand stories of his ministries and how they deviate from authentic Christian teachings.

We are all here to learn and grow. Our responsibility is to be vigilant and disciplined in our perception of our own and other's behaviors.

I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation
peace,
st john

Posted by: st john on December 4, 2008 at 5:09 PM | PERMALINK

You know when you say "reasonable Evangelical" together in a sentence that you are employing what English teachers call an oxymoron, don't you. (Or were you being ironic? It is sometimes hard to tell.)

Posted by: candideinnc on December 4, 2008 at 5:10 PM | PERMALINK

The highest blasphemy is to claim to know the will of God.
Incredible hubris.

Posted by: Raoul Paste on December 4, 2008 at 5:15 PM | PERMALINK

Warren knows who pays his salary: wealthy, conservative Orange County suburbanites who would ride him out of town on a rail if he ever said anything remotely critical of the current GOP, the Iraq War, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc. Now that a Democrat is in office, however, I suspect Warren's courage to speak truth to power from the pulpit will suddenly be rediscovered.

Posted by: jonas on December 4, 2008 at 5:19 PM | PERMALINK

Another FOX news tidbit! If we ignore them, will they go away? Seriously, they exist because of advertising, which pays because interest is (mysteriously) generated. I sometimes wonder if paying any attention to these freakish (and minority) whackjobs does any good. I mean, why don't you cover Rush Limpblob more? Is Fox really that far from him on the whack meter?

Posted by: e henry thripshaw on December 4, 2008 at 5:28 PM | PERMALINK

Last time I asked Jesus what he'd do, he said, "I'd ride my Harley over to Hooters and order a pitcher because tonight is half-price beer night."

Today, when I asked Jesus what he thought of Rick Warren, he said, "Who?

Posted by: Robin 'Roblimo' Miller on December 4, 2008 at 5:32 PM | PERMALINK

As mentioned above, how can you take anything Warren says or does seriously after he gave George W. Bush, of all people, the inagural International Medal of Peace?

Next year he'll award it to Dmitry Medvedev.

Posted by: WInkandanod on December 4, 2008 at 5:38 PM | PERMALINK

the jews expected the "messiah" to come with a sword and overthrow their oppressors and reestablish israels former glory. except jesus, the christian messiah and supposedly who warren speaks for and has an intimate relationship with, was the "prince of peace" and instead of establishing a worldly kingdom preached that the real kingdom is in heaven. instead of leading an army to victory he instead was arrested and crucified like a common criminal and his followers have since taught that his sacrifice was a metaphorical victory. a victory over death and sin.

im an atheist and i know more about this jesus dude than these idiot christians.

Posted by: qwet on December 4, 2008 at 5:39 PM | PERMALINK

All Rick Warren did is justify the Muslims interpretation of their holy book that it's OK to kill us. Thanks Rick.

Posted by: Coral on December 4, 2008 at 5:41 PM | PERMALINK

Rick Warren shows that he is a false prophet.

Posted by: Tim on December 4, 2008 at 5:47 PM | PERMALINK

Way too much religion bashing going on in here. There are a lot of liberals out there that still consider themselves christians.

Not all religious(christians) people are listeners and doers of Warrens preaching. I am a religious person and I know when to apply the bible and when NOT to. I think what Warren said was clearly ignorant, but bashing the medium he is saying it under as opposed to bashing the messanger misses the point.

I sometimes dont know which is worse, the religious fanatics that cannot see that everything should not be based on the bible or the atheists that are so one-track minded they believe anything religion based is EVIL.

Its not religion thats EVIL, its the application of it by bad men that is EVIL.

Posted by: Akinola on December 4, 2008 at 5:54 PM | PERMALINK

Lord Jesus,

Save me from your followers.

Amen

Posted by: exhuming mccarthy on December 4, 2008 at 5:55 PM | PERMALINK

Again these simplistic clowns get the facts wrong but the propaganda right. The power in Iran is NOT the President. It is the Supreme High Ayotollah Khameini. It's true that the President says some outrageous things but they are just words. The person who controls virtually EVERYTHING in Iran is Khameini. He is the ultimate micro-manager. Check out 'this months 'Foreign Relations" magazine. The lack of knowledge on the part of most Americans regarding world events and real enemies is absolutely appalling. The oft used analogy of the fat and dumb big kid in the playground still appears to apply to the US. Pity

Posted by: geogg on December 4, 2008 at 6:00 PM | PERMALINK

I thought the Christian relationship with government began and ended with rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Which is a pretty suspicious appraisal of government when you think about it (OMG JESUS WAS A LIBERTARIAN!!!! Well, he was definitely fringe enough....)

Posted by: justinslot on December 4, 2008 at 6:02 PM | PERMALINK

"Its not religion thats EVIL, its the application of it by bad men that is EVIL"

And since evil always hides behind pity, all the more reason for Mr. Warren to stay out of politics and start marketing his next self-help book.

Make no mistake, this guy is being grommed to be Dobson's replacement.

Posted by: Diogenes on December 4, 2008 at 6:11 PM | PERMALINK

Way too much religion bashing going on in here. There are a lot of liberals out there that still consider themselves christians.

Good for you. I don't. Just because you do doesn't entitle you to automatic reverence of your beliefs. I fully accept your right to have them, but I don't have to be in awe of your faith.

Not all religious(christians) people are listeners and doers of Warrens preaching.

Only tens of millions of Americans who listen to him and those like him. Small potatoes, I suppose.

I am a religious person and I know when to apply the bible and when NOT to.

Congrats! You are the new Prophet! Of course, you are just as selective as he is. Who is right? You? Warren? The Pope? You are all interpreting some 2000 year old document that has been translated, reinterpreted and revised countless times over the epochs — and EACH OF YOU think you are the one reading it the "right" way. That's reassuring.

When self-described Christians can't even agree with the correct interpretation on what the Bible is supposed to be saying, what the hell are the rest of us supposed to do? Think your kind will win the theological debate? No thanks

I sometimes dont know which is worse, the religious fanatics that cannot see that everything should not be based on the bible or the atheists that are so one-track minded they believe anything religion based is EVIL.

Then you know exactly nothing. One group speaks to millions about how God sanctions the killing the religious and political leaders of millions of others — and atheists who run nothing and have no real power think its evil to be "religious" in that way. Totally equal.

Its not religion thats EVIL, its the application of it by bad men that is EVIL.

Then the religious are the easiest marks in the history of the long con because bad men are legion in religion. Whether they are bad because they are convinced of their singular relationship with God or are content to convince others of it, it hardly matters.

There are plenty of great leaders who led informed by their faith of course, but to a person they were killed by others who found theirs to be a perversion of The True Faith.

Posted by: Jay B. on December 4, 2008 at 6:23 PM | PERMALINK

I posit that they have it exactly backwards: priest invented gods to vilify the state's enemies and sanctify their own warmongering.

Posted by: jhm on December 4, 2008 at 6:37 PM | PERMALINK

Who would Jesus kill?

Posted by: homer on December 4, 2008 at 6:46 PM | PERMALINK

Why would anyone not see Warren as a pilfering little right wing lying fanatic. He blatantly and willfully lied about McCain. Another in a long line of 'Christian' world dominance power brokers hiding under a veneer of righteousness...agreeing with Hannity on anything is just being submissively ignorant. What embarrassments we allow on our national air waves. Mega-grunts.

Posted by: joey on December 4, 2008 at 6:49 PM | PERMALINK

Jay B, the funny thing is I agree with most of what you had to say. But I see a disturbing pattern with self proclaimed atheists. They are too quick to insinuate that people of religion are trying to push their beliefs down their throats. I came to that conclusion from the exchange below.


I said: Way too much religion bashing going on in here. There are a lot of liberals out there that still consider themselves christians.

You said: Good for you. I don't. Just because you do doesn't entitle you to automatic reverence of your beliefs. I fully accept your right to have them, but I don't have to be in awe of your faith.

Now, nowhere in my post did i suggest or imply that you should be in awe of my faith or beliefs. All i was trying to put forth is, non believers in religion should stop bashing religion(whichever it may be) or the people that practice them. You dont see me coming down on you for being an atheist(i presume you are).

You have to isolate the people that do evil in the name of religion from the general population of believers.

Not all Muslims are terrorists and not all terrorist are muslims.

Btw, i see no difference between Dubya and OBL, two very dangerous individuals that are responsible for the deaths of thousands because God told them to, kill thousands of Americans(OBL), and start a war that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Americans and Iraqis(GW).....well, at least thats one of the reasons he gave, whether that is true or not is debatable and a topic for another day.

AK

Posted by: Akinola on December 4, 2008 at 6:50 PM | PERMALINK

btw...cherry picking the bible is dangerous. Punishing evil doers like stoning to death those who eat shellfish or made love while on their period, had an affair, or were disobedient to their parents will get you arrested. So according to Warren we could hit Hannity in the head with rocks and be within our rights. Some would get celestial virgins (or their real life 'eating' look alikes, people hate Hannity that much) as rewards, here and later...maybe.

Posted by: joey on December 4, 2008 at 6:57 PM | PERMALINK

"All i was trying to put forth is, non believers in religion should stop bashing religion"

Should we stop bashing television too?

Posted by: What the fuck is the difference on December 4, 2008 at 6:57 PM | PERMALINK

WWJD??? WWJD????.....change his fucking name.

Posted by: bjobotts on December 4, 2008 at 6:59 PM | PERMALINK

All i was trying to put forth is, non believers in religion should stop bashing religion(whichever it may be)

Why? My original point stands. I disagree with it. I think many of its fundamental tenets are wrong, stupid, myopic, easily manipulated, empty and, yes, even "evil" in a certain light. I think the same thing of the Republican Platform — should I stop criticizing that? I can only surmise by your response that you are asking me to suspend criticism of religion by the reasoning that it exists and is somehow exempt from being "bashed" because people I would otherwise agree with believe in it.

You dont see me coming down on you for being an atheist(i presume you are).

I don't care if you do or not. I'm comfortable in my non-belief in religion and God. It's odd that you seem more sensitive about your faith than I do about my lack of it.

Posted by: Jay B. on December 4, 2008 at 7:09 PM | PERMALINK

Millions of Americans choose to order their lives according to a salad bar interpretation of 2,000-3,000 year old folktales written by nomadic goatherds and bitter diasporates on another continent. As evidenced by recent legislative and ballot questions concerning gays, abortion, prayer and creationism in schools, using the Bible as a basis for slavery and racial inequality, and repression of women's bodily autonomy, most of them would happily force the rest of us to do the same.

That does not mean those of us with the capacity for critical thought must respect them or their beliefs.

But I see a disturbing pattern with self proclaimed "christians." They are too quick to insinuate that people who believe in individual rights and liberties are trying to push their beliefs down their throats. I came to that conclusion by looking around for a few minutes.

Fixed it for you.

Posted by: Keori on December 4, 2008 at 7:12 PM | PERMALINK

Later, Warren's office called Duss back to say the pastor was, in fact, referring to Romans 13. When Duss noted the chapter and verse make no reference to killing foreign leaders, Warren's representative said she'd have to look into it.

Yes, clearly Romans 13:10 commands that we execute leaders of foreign governments that our infallible human judgment finds to be evil:

"Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. "

I mean, it's right there in the text.

Ironically, the same chapter demands that we pay taxes without questioning them to show our obedience to God...which proves once and for all that the Republican party is controlled by the spirit of the Antichrist.

So when do we start the heresy trials?

Posted by: trex on December 4, 2008 at 7:15 PM | PERMALINK

I really don't have any problem with assassinating foreign leaders, I do have a problem with talking about it. Deal with dictators in a way they understand, a bullet, but don't write al-jazeera's talking points for them. There is no reason to use the bible to justify it, common sense does a good enough job on it's own.
Disagreeing with the government or a portion of it does not constitute a lack of submission as long as you are paying your taxes and obeying the laws of that government.

Posted by: Jim on December 4, 2008 at 7:20 PM | PERMALINK

Regardless of what Warren believes is biblical, doesn't the Iranian president need to be deposed, anyway? I seem to recall that Iran is known for some of the worst human rights abuses in the world. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world, and there are people like Ahmadinejad who have no respect for the sanctity of human life. People like him need to be removed from power. Ahmadinejad has expressed over and over his hate for America (and Israel), often making comments to the effect of "We will not rest until America is destroyed." From a governmental standpoint, then, the U.S.A. should work to prevent Ahmadinejad from achieving his goals. The government, even though it fails miserably at this ideal, is ideally meant to be the servant of the citizens. So, to protect it's citizens, the U.S. may find itself in a position on day where it is necessary to kill Ahmadinejad. That's the simple truth. If you knew that for your family to survive, you needed to preemptively execute a known murderer, would you not support that execution? Ahmadinejad has expressed over and over again his desire to murder Americans. Americans, if you live in the country sandwiched between Canada and Mexico, means you. And your family. While this is a dirty, unsavory truth, it is still truth. Sometimes it is necessary to kill criminals like Ahmadinejad. Sorry to go off on a governmental tangent, didn't mean to do that. Importantly, for the sake of this article, sometimes it is necessary to kill criminals like Ahmadinejad, from a perspective of human rights.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 7:21 PM | PERMALINK

Jeez, my post was really disorganized and sloppy. Oh well.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 7:23 PM | PERMALINK

Eon B., see geogg at 6:00 PM. Achmadinejad doesn't have any real power. He's a repugnant blowhard, but no more than that.

Posted by: bad Jim on December 4, 2008 at 7:31 PM | PERMALINK

I seem to recall that Iran is known for some of the worst human rights abuses in the world.

No shit. Can you imagine if an American leader condoned torture, suspended habeas corpus, kidnapped innocent people, did away with due process rights, jailed journalists and used a massive security apparatus to spy on his own citizens?

Ahmadinejad who have no respect for the sanctity of human life.

No shit! Can you imagine what it would be like if an American leader unleashed a "shock and awe" bombing campaign on the nearly-defenseless population of a major urban center for absolutely no reason the way that Ahmadinejad did? Thankfully, Americans understand what "sanctity of life" really means.

If I thought like you, I'd say that people like you should be shot. But I don't. And that's the difference.

Posted by: Jay B. on December 4, 2008 at 7:32 PM | PERMALINK

One: It's really only Protestant Christianity that exalts the Bible as The Word of God. The Catholic Church believes that God also spoke to the Church Fathers and assorted saints and popes. The Eastern Orthodox churches bellieve likewise. (They also have different Bibles. And even Martin luther denied that the Book of Revelation had any useful doctrine in it.
Fundie Christianity gloms onto literality to deny the power of a hierarchy that interprets Scripture for them--since Fundie Christianity is basically anarchic--and it also allows them by a convenient back door to make the words of Paul the words of God--often to subvert the words of Jesus. They just say 'The Bible says this" when it's Paul saying odious.
Two: Anything that you can say bad about religion you can also in the same words say about government. Mankind does not need the word of any god to kill other men. Just kill them and take their stuff. Atheisn is not a more virtuous position than religion-those who believe that do have to explain Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. They just might be right about the universe--or they might not.
(I'm a militant agnostic: my position is "I don't know--and neither do you.")

Posted by: pbg on December 4, 2008 at 7:49 PM | PERMALINK

I'm condemning the actions of the Iranian state, not condoning those of the U.S. I am not saying what the U.S. has done the past 8 years has been right, in fact, the way we have handled a lot of things has been totally screwed up. I'm not saying that the way we treat our enemies is right, but there is a difference in treating an enemy poorly, and treating the members of your own country poorly. Once again, not condoning the United State's actions. I'm not even saying that we treat our citizens the right way. However, we do treat them a lot better than the Iranian government treats its own, in general. I haven't committed any hate crimes recently, as far as I know, so maybe I shouldn't be shot. I am very concerned about the way our government treats our enemies. In fact, that's why I got out of the Army. There is no way in hell that I could, in good conscience, support what we are doing in Iraq. As far as places like Guantanamo Bay are concerned, they should be shut down. There is no reason that we shouldn't give the enemy a fair trial. If they have really committed crimes, then they will be prosecuted. If there is not enough evidence to prosecute them, then it's too bad. That is the way our justice system works. Even if some criminals at Guantanamo Bay are set free because there is not enough information to convict them, I would feel a lot better about our country. Unfortunately, that won't happen. I'm not under the illusion, like most people in the U.S, that Obama will really bring any kind of great change. I hope he does. However, it is unlikely.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 7:50 PM | PERMALINK

Jay B, you have every right to be critical of religion. But your lack of veneration for another’s right to be religious is what I have bones with. Any sensitivity on my part stems from your insensitivity to another’s belief in religion. Granted, you make no excuses for your non-belief, and I respect that, all I ask in return is the same level of sanction. Btw, this is one of those agree to disagree type spats, so, I will beckon to the fat lady now.

Keori, thanks for the “fix”. Nothing to disagree with there. But my assertion pre-fix stands as well.

Posted by: Akinola on December 4, 2008 at 7:51 PM | PERMALINK

"im an atheist and i know more about this jesus dude than these idiot christians."

He may be right. That's kind of the fallacy of religion, isn't it? I mean, some smart atheist can come in and beat the religious at the quoting or debating game, given a bit of education.

It's a competitive world.

Posted by: Bob M on December 4, 2008 at 7:51 PM | PERMALINK

Jay B, you have every right to be critical of religion. But your lack of veneration for another’s right to be religious is what I have bones with. Any sensitivity on my part stems from your insensitivity to another’s belief in religion.

Knock yourself out - believe whatever you want to believe. But leave those of us who are not weak minded and superstitious the hell alone.

Posted by: Blue Girl on December 4, 2008 at 7:57 PM | PERMALINK

"People like him need to be removed from power"

The Iranian elections come next summer. Ahmadinejad will be removed from what little power he has. Unless, of course, we bomb Iran. Then, he'll whip up nationalist fervor and everyone will forget his dismal economic policies. When you are faced with a self-destructive enemy, the best thing to do is let them self-destruct. Currently, Ahmadinejad has an approval rating that rivals those of Robert Mugabe and Than Shwe. If we do nothing, he won't be able to recover from that. Let's not hand him any new issues that might help him.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 7:59 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, I am amazed at all the philistines (social liberals), whores (lawyers), and sodomites (self-descriptive) that defend Ahmadinejad. He is on record as exterminating all of these categories of dysfunctional people. I would think that the individuals composing these groups would applaud the extermination of the guy. Oh! I forgot you respond to emotion and not fact.

Posted by: Diamond Dave on December 4, 2008 at 8:02 PM | PERMALINK

It doesn't make sense to me how so many "liberals," and I use the term because there is no better established one, can seemingly advocate "freedom of religion," when in reality what they are advocating is suppression/ridicule of Christianity. They say that people's beliefs should be respected, blah blah, but the next words out of their mouths are blanket statements about the idiocy of Christians. I will agree, however, that the majority of Christians don't understand what it's about. Kind of like the majority of the Jews didn't understand what the law was about. Things like the crusades have been heralded over the years as examples of why Christianity is a terrible religion, designed to control man. However, the crusades are not a good example of Christianity. Christ never sanctioned violence in his name, people were never given that authority. There is a difference, though, between the actions of Christians, and the actions of their government. A government does have the authority to punish criminals and protect it's citizens. If the government didn't have that authority, there would be no purpose to government, except as a control measure. Which, unfortunately, is what our government has become. Politicians have lost sight of the fact that they are supposed to be servants of the people, and not the other way around. As a result, we have a lot of screwed up shit coming out of this country. A big problem is that almost no one really understands what Christianity is about. It has always been that way, hence atrocities like the crusades. Fundamental Christians (and by that I mean Christians who actually do what the Bible says, not extrapolating what they want from it and tossing out the rest) should be very compassionate people. Christ taught that Christians are to love their enemies, to turn the other cheek when persecuted. How many Christians do you know who actually follow that tenet? Almost none, which is why Christianity has such a bad name. Fundamental Christians (see my definition above) should respect other people's right to believe whatever they want. That is the freedom that we are afforded in this country. To respect other people's right to believe what they will. This doesn't mean that they have to agree, but it does mean no crusades. Lol. Christians in America suck, period. They are fat, lazy, arrogant bastards, just like the rest of the country. (I don't mean to generalize like this, but everyone here is intelligent enough to understand my meaning) Atheists in this country are also fat, lazy, arrogant bastards. Same goes for anyone (in general). When people are given a lot of freedom, they tend to become arrogant, and believe that only their beliefs are acceptable. This goes for people of faith, and otherwise. I'm not condoning the actions of "Christians," in this country, I am condemning them. But I also condemn the bigotry that comes from the so-called "intelligent left," that understands just as little about true respect as the christians in this country.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 8:07 PM | PERMALINK

To add to Blue Girl's comment:

And stop apologizing for the idiots and evildoers in your midst, or remaining silent when they purport to speak for you. If you want to continue having the right to believe what you believe, best to stand with the atheists and Pagans and secular humanists against the ravening hordes of Warren's self-described "christians" who would have us all live what they alone think is right.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke

I respect your Constitutional and human right to believe as you see fit, and live according to those tenets, provide they harm no one else. That doesn't mean I have to respect whatever work of fiction you venerate as truth, or live by it. I will continue to be critical of "christianity" because it has been the basis of far more harm than good in this world, and continues to be cited as an excuse to oppress the weak, the poor, and the downtrodden.

Posted by: Keori on December 4, 2008 at 8:08 PM | PERMALINK

"The difference is Pastor Warren can PROVE what he says - by the Bible -"

No he can't. At first, he wasn't even sure which passage offered the proof. Then he came up with Romans 13, which doesn't say anything about killing foreign leaders. The only part of the Bible that does support his case is Joshua. That book basically asserts that we have the right to commit genocide against anyone we don't like and steal their land. But that doesn't really fly in modern society.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 8:10 PM | PERMALINK

"Not all religious(christians) people are listeners and doers of Warrens preaching. I am a religious person and I know when to apply the bible and when NOT to. I think what Warren said was clearly ignorant, but bashing the medium he is saying it under as opposed to bashing the messanger misses the point.

"I sometimes dont know which is worse, the religious fanatics that cannot see that everything should not be based on the bible or the atheists that are so one-track minded they believe anything religion based is EVIL.

Its not religion thats EVIL, its the application of it by bad men that is EVIL."

Nut-cuttin' time here, buddy. First, you have a real problem in that organized religion draws evil people just like shit draws flies. Next, you're not sure who's worse, religious fanatics or atheists, which leads one to ask exactly what harm atheists have ever done to their fellow humans. Conversely, think what religious people have done to fellow humans. I know who's worse; that you don't bespeaks a tragic lack of judgment.

Finally, you say you know when to apply the bible and when not to. Exactly when is it that you apply the bible? And do you apply the Old or New Testaments? Or both? And I always wonder exactly why it is you folks give more credence to some old texts, the provenance of which is unknown, than you do to, say, the latest novel by James Patterson.

I've always been hard-pressed to figure out the difference between a guy living in Rome who wears neat-looking robes and a big hat and a tribal witch doctor or medicine man.

Posted by: Nixon Did It on December 4, 2008 at 8:10 PM | PERMALINK

Knock yourself out - believe whatever you want to believe. But leave those of us who are not weak minded and superstitious the hell alone.

Yet again, that same pattern i mentioned some posts ago rears its predictable head. I didnt come on here to change minds, or try to convert anyone. All I want want is for you to respect my right to be weak minded and superstitious.

A fanatic is one that cant change his mind and wont change the subject - Anoynymous

Posted by: Akinola on December 4, 2008 at 8:10 PM | PERMALINK

After reading all the venom that was hissed out around here. I'd much rather be a christian. You be people have no respect for anyone. If that is what we have to look forward to I hope God comes back real soon. You people are all most all democrats it's easy to tell because you are the ones who say how much compassion you have for other people.

Posted by: carol on December 4, 2008 at 8:12 PM | PERMALINK

Nixon Did It- There is no difference between witch doctors and the pope. The pope just has a hell of a lot more money, so he seems respectable. As far as atheists doing harm to their fellow man, I think someone made a comment about various Russian/Chinese, et c... rulers. Lol. Christianity is not inherently evil, but people can corrupt anything.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 8:14 PM | PERMALINK

"Hey, I am amazed at all the philistines (social liberals), whores (lawyers), and sodomites (self-descriptive) that defend Ahmadinejad."

Do have an actual example of someone defending Ahmadinejad here? My comment is probably the closest, but I'm not defending him. I'm asserting that his removal would more likely to occur if we just ignore him. If I wanted to keep Ahmadinejad in power, I'd bomb the shit out Iran. Nothing would do more to cause people to rally in his support than that.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 8:16 PM | PERMALINK

I took a shit this morning and it looked like an M.-- There, I Said It, @ 16:55

Hate to tell you, buddy, but... I think you were looking at it upside down...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regardless of what Warren believes is biblical, doesn't the Iranian president need to be deposed, anyway? -- Eon B, @19:21

I have this idea, which may sound a bit radical to you... Let *Iran* decide the fate of Ahmadinejad? Seeing as it's a sovereign country, same as USA?

Posted by: exlibra on December 4, 2008 at 8:17 PM | PERMALINK

Ok justifying killing of political targets or waging wars against countries with the bible is exactly how the terrorist justify their actions and rally their supporters. "Evil" is relative. Arabs that fly airplanes into building use the same logic, shame on Warren and Hannity for reducing Christians to the level of muslim extremists...

Posted by: doc gold on December 4, 2008 at 8:18 PM | PERMALINK

Christianity is not inherently evil, but people can corrupt anything.

What Eon B said.

Posted by: Akinola on December 4, 2008 at 8:19 PM | PERMALINK

I can't imaging Jesus instructing his desciples to "kill" anyone. Some Christian leaders are just as dangerous and radical as extreme Islamic leaders.

Posted by: Janet on December 4, 2008 at 8:25 PM | PERMALINK

fostert- I agree with you that Ahmedinejad will probably be removed from power... I can only hope that he will.

Despite what some people may think, he has more power than he is credited for. He is the president of Iran. Lol. That title is not nearly as meaningless as, for example, the Queen of England. Even if he is just a "repugnant blowhard," he is a blowhard with a pretty high position. I mean, if (whoever said that he's just a blowhard) really believes that, why should I just not say that President Bush is just a puppet, no actual power, blah blah. When people say that, I just think it's ridiculous. President Bush has been in control of his actions, and is therefore responsible. If he is just a puppet, then how can we really hold him responsible for his actions? If he's a puppet, they weren't his actions in the first place, so he can't be held responsible for them. I, for one, think that he should be held fully accountable for his actions, both good and bad. Regardless of what many people in this country believe, Bush has made some good decisions. Just because he made bad ones after that doesn't negate the benefits that he has afforded to the global community. It certainly does seem, though, like the negative actions outweigh the positive ones... Personally, I have a great deal of respect for the office that he holds, and I try to sympathize as much as possible with that. Bush has been put in a lot of hard situations, with a lot of constituants who don't understand any of the issues that the country deals with. Therefore, he is forced to make decisions that most people will disagree with, because he believes they are right for the country. I will never say that Bush has made only right decisions. He has made a lot of stupid, wrong decisions. However, I do believe that he is generally honest, and has had good intentions. However, being honest and having good intentions doesn't excuse his mistakes. It should show us to be a little bit more understanding, though. His presidency should also show us that we do need change, however, which is why I voted for Obama. Not that I hold any high expectations for him, but I do hope that things will improve. I'm just glad that Obama was elected, and the Clinton will now be in a position with very little relative power. Obama is smart enough to make at least a fairly balanced cabinet, and that is what's important.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 8:27 PM | PERMALINK

but ... but ... isn't it liars at large?

Rick Warren is a lying sack of crap at any point

These news programs want to have him on because of it ... what he doesn't mind doing?

Posted by: A Name I Need on December 4, 2008 at 8:28 PM | PERMALINK

Convert them, kill them, or tax them. Anonymous (or maybe not)

Posted by: Diamond Dave on December 4, 2008 at 8:29 PM | PERMALINK

exlibra- i am all for Iran deciding the fate of Ahmadinejad. However, if he poses an imminent threat to the United States, then it is the government's responsibility to eliminate that threat.

When I say all of these things, I am being kind of idealistic... I know, however, that the government will screw things up. Believe me, I have firsthand experience in how screwed up the military is. If we ever went into Iran, we would fsck things up, it's just the nature of the beast. Idealistically, though, it is the government's responsibility to remove threats to it's citizens.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 8:32 PM | PERMALINK

Steve - Try reading the Old Testament and you'll get a taste of what Warren is most likely referring to. You are such a moron.

Posted by: Jonathan on December 4, 2008 at 8:32 PM | PERMALINK

shame on Warren and Hannity for reducing Christians to the level of muslim extremists...
Posted by: doc gold

Muslim extremists would have to kill many, many more people to reach the level of Christianity. ... Those bastards had a 700 year head start.

Posted by: Gonads on December 4, 2008 at 8:36 PM | PERMALINK

Like all so called "Men of God" They reveal their true colors sooner or later.Rick Warren is a fraud and a charlatan.He is Falwell,Robertson and Haggard.
What he represents is hypocrisy at the highest level.Combining him with a snivelling toad like Sean Hannity once more shows the ugly side of Christianity which is inherently evil anyway.

Posted by: Phil on December 4, 2008 at 8:37 PM | PERMALINK

Honestly, the government should not be a "religious," government. There are too many conflicts of interest. However, it is perfectly fine for people's worldviews to affect the judgements they make... Everyone has a worldview, and religion/faith is something that is important to people's worldviews, whether it is faith in God, or a faith in "science." The God vs. "science," discussion is not for here, though. Lol.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 8:38 PM | PERMALINK

"Did you personally TALK to Warren's church or are you just parroting what someone else told you?"

No, but Matt Duss did, and his people had no answer initially, and then gave a poor one when pushed on it. And by the way, my interpretations of the Bible come from reading it several times. The difference is that I read the Bible with an open mind and reach my own conclusions. I don't ask some right wing lunatic to interpret it for me. You obviously do. And some parts of the Bible are great and offer good insight. The story of Joseph would be a good example. But some parts, like Joshua, are simply appalling by any standard of decent society. It's genocide, pure and simple. And the same goes for what the sons of Levi did in Exodus. Mass murder is simply not acceptable no matter where it's written. You some to believe that any atrocity can be justified if it's in the Bible. I don't.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 8:38 PM | PERMALINK

Diamond Dave,

It wasn't Anonymous, it was Ann Coulter. Minus the tax part; someone added that in later.

Posted by: Keori on December 4, 2008 at 8:39 PM | PERMALINK

As far as atheists doing harm to their fellow man, I think someone made a comment about various Russian/Chinese, et c... rulers. -- Eon B, @20:14

The main difference is that, although those rulers were atheists, they did not kill everyone who was a dis-believer (ie did not believe in *their particular* version of superstition). Their motivation -- at least on the surface -- was things like treason (to the country, to the "cause", etc).

The religious, OTOH -- both Christian and others (like Ahmadinejad's Iran)-- kill for *religious* reasons. You don't wear the cross. You don't wear the veil. You don't do what the Bible/Koran tells you to...

Posted by: exlibra on December 4, 2008 at 8:41 PM | PERMALINK

"One - not one US military person will be sent to kill ANYONE because Rick Warren said it was ok."

So, the justification for what Warren said is that nobody will listen to him? I sure hope nobody takes his advice, but it doesn't make his advice any better.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 8:43 PM | PERMALINK

If we ever went into Iran, we would fsck things up, it's just the nature of the beast. Idealistically, though, it is the government's responsibility to remove threats to it's citizens.
Posted by: Eon B.

You're not being idealistic, but naive, and your naivete gets many civilians killed ...

"Naive" is actually being generous. "Racist disregard for foreign life" is closer to how I actually interpret your sentiments.

Posted by: Gonads on December 4, 2008 at 8:45 PM | PERMALINK

Fraud is Rick Warren

and he and they are so aware of it

Posted by: A Name I Need on December 4, 2008 at 8:45 PM | PERMALINK

Carol - I can't speak for all of the 'democrats" here, but I suspect a lot of people on this blog have a lot of respect for people they disagree with - if they are willing to put forward a convincing argument and support it with facts. And by facts, I don't mean a quote from some book you believe to be divine. No one cares if you are a christian (odd that you didn't capitalize). Most of the posts here are in response to defending killing people with religion or defending people who defend killing people with religion.

Posted by: wmac on December 4, 2008 at 8:47 PM | PERMALINK

Goodness, Phil and Gonads. I am reading a lot of hate here and certainly no tolerances for people that do not think like you guys/gals. If your employer's insurance package (which you actually pay for) does not offer therapy coverage perhaps, you could apply for treatment under Medicaid if you are unemployed.

Posted by: Diamond Dave on December 4, 2008 at 8:47 PM | PERMALINK

"After reading all the venom that was hissed out around here. I'd much rather be a christian. You be people have no respect for anyone. If that is what we have to look forward to I hope God comes back real soon. You people are all most all democrats it's easy to tell because you are the ones who say how much compassion you have for other people."

Carol, you don't know how much I'd like to see your God come back (when was he/she here, BTW?), esp. if he/she is as just and compassionate as you all say. The way I see is that he/she might just smite all of you who justify stealing our money through the tax exemptions for churches and religious leaders that are blatantly political. I also figure he/she might be somewhat upset by all of you who justify denying basic civil rights to your fellow citizens merely because of their sexual preferences.

Actually, Carol, maybe you, good old Pastor Rick and the many others of his ilk, not to mention your millions of fellow-travelers, don't really want to see a good, just and compassionate God anywhere around these parts.

Posted by: Nixon Did It on December 4, 2008 at 8:47 PM | PERMALINK

Shepard Smith said Hannity was crying in the bathroom when Obama was confirmed
as election winner.
Hannity is a serial whiner at present.
It is laughable.
It is emblematic of his desperation to have war-mongerers on his show.
The religious right is stifled.
Hannity is so paranoid he will be booted out, be it a fairness doctrine or a foxx snooze change up.
Let not your hearts be troubled.

Posted by: wise old gal on December 4, 2008 at 8:49 PM | PERMALINK

Any human being who pretends to understand life and what comes after is a fool.
Humans' tiny brains are not capable of soing so.
We have few rukes if we choose to recognize them:

* Help and be kind to each other in every way we can.
* Be spiritual in whatever way your heart tells you is right.

Pretty simple. The world would be a better place
if we lived our lives that way.
Those that horde their money trying to have their heaven on earth, well....good luck explaining that when the time comes.

Posted by: Phil on December 4, 2008 at 8:49 PM | PERMALINK

"Christains pull their head out now and then to observe what actually HAPPENS as opposed to what folks SAY."

Okay, now pull your head out of your ass and tell me what happened in Northern Ireland a few decades ago. And explain to me how that wasn't Christian terrorism. Or tell me what happened in America in the 1800s. And explain to me how that wasn't genocide committed by Christians. I'm not trying to bash Christianity, but I'm really sick of the concept the Christians are somehow superior to the rest of us. We all have opinions and can disagree. But I will not start from the framing that I am inferior because I disagree with some aspects of Christianity.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 8:50 PM | PERMALINK

It took about 2 seconds to find the passage on Google; 1 Peter 2:13-14.. Warren's only pointing out the obvious, the goal of evil is to propogate until confronted or eliminated by good.

Posted by: Not in Kansas anymore on December 4, 2008 at 8:52 PM | PERMALINK

Come on Mr. Benen get a life and get some balls..I guess they weren't politically correct. Bunch of liberal pussies...

Posted by: Joe B. on December 4, 2008 at 8:54 PM | PERMALINK

exlibra- we both know that "on the surface," doesn't really count. Lol. None of those dictators really cared about their people. A dictator who cares about his people was Fidel Castro. It's funny, the U.S. demonized a couple of the dictators who actually aren't that bad, and have brought about a lot of change in their countries. Look up the Sean Penn article he wrote about Castro and Chavez... It's really good. Umm... There is a huge difference, even just on the surface, between the so called "christians," who advocated the crusades, for example, and modern dictators... Stalin killed well over 14 million people, lol. I would never advocate either of those movements... I would just argue that the crusades were not really based on the what the Bible says. Lol. People have always misused Christianity to their own ends, this doesn't make Christianity evil, it makes those people evil. It doesn't make socialism evil, it makes Stalin evil... And I would argue against people who say that evil is relative... There are things that everyone, with the exception of deluded maniacs, understands to be wrong. For example, most people understand that it is wrong to rape. Most people understand that it is wrong to murder, etc... This is evident by the guilt that most people would feel after committing such an act. I don't know if Stalin understood that what he was doing was evil, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't. You don't have to understand evil to commit it. The crusades weren't really done for "religious," reasons as far as I am concerned. They were not advocated by true Christianity. However, fundamental Muslims, the ones who do what the Koran says, have a *religious* duty to kill non-believers, to convert them at the sword. Big difference between true Christianity and true Islam. Christ advocated peace and loving your enemy. Islam advocated violence and murdering your enemy. Also, Islam makes moral exceptions... It's okay for a Muslim to lie to a nonbeliever, especially if it will help the Muslim to kill the nonbeliever... Biblical Christianity doesn't make moral exceptions like that. Idk if that will seem important to you, but it is to me. Lol. Once again, there is a huge difference between biblical christianity and what most people practice. There is not such a huge dichotomy in the Muslim world.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 8:54 PM | PERMALINK

Keon, you obviously never read the Qor’an.
Don’t feel dumb. You are no more or less ignorant then the average American with an undergrad degree from a liberal arts college.
I think Coulter’s original thought was something about idiots to the left of me …

Posted by: Diamond Dave on December 4, 2008 at 8:57 PM | PERMALINK

If Bush was right in killing Hussein and the "rev" is right in trying to kill the Iranian leader then wasn't Oswald right in killing Kennedy?

Posted by: Josephus on December 4, 2008 at 8:59 PM | PERMALINK

Gonads- Racist disregard for foreign life? Lol. How do you come to that conclusion? I am not a racist. I am not advocating /murder/. Like I said, I hope that the Iranians will boot him out. If he is a threat to the U.S. population though, he should be removed. It doesn't mean murder him, I would rather have him rot away in a jail cell for a long time. As long as the cost of keeping him in prison isn't levied onto the U.S. Lol.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 8:59 PM | PERMALINK

What a collection of dung! You have 1 newcaster that sits far to the right and hundreds that are just the opposite but you are going after him because he has his own beliefs. I believe those of us who are proud to be Americans and have the right to voice our opinion could easily come up with enough money to buy all of you moaning little infidels a one way ticket to join the Iranian public. Enjoy our freedom because there are some people that don't have the luxury and then there are those that don't deserve it!

Posted by: Doc on December 4, 2008 at 8:59 PM | PERMALINK

"Ok fostert, I'll bet football is just too violent for your delicate little self."

Hardly. I'm a big football fan. And I practice martial arts. I'm not opposed to the use of force when it would be productive. You believe that force should be used even when would it would be counterproductive. My point is to minimize the total amount of violence. And sometimes a small amount of violence will prevent a large amount. But the violence needs to be directed at the right people for it to work. Attacking Iraq because a Saudi citizen born in Yemen and based in Afghanistan attacked us is silly. Why not direct this violence against bin Laden? Why should we let him off the hook because Afghanistan wasn't sexy enough for our war planners? And why punish Hussein for NOT attacking us? Our policy now is to attack the harmless people and ignore the real threats. If you want to change people's behavior, you need to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. We do the opposite.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 9:01 PM | PERMALINK

kevo, PLEASE don't defrock warren within my linve of vision . . . P L E A S E . . . .

Posted by: kara-su on December 4, 2008 at 9:02 PM | PERMALINK

Knock yourself out - believe whatever you want to believe. But leave those of us who are not weak minded and superstitious the hell alone.

Blue Girl, does that include our President-Elect? Neither of those adjectives came to mind when I voted for him.

Posted by: AK Liberal on December 4, 2008 at 9:02 PM | PERMALINK

Diamond Dave- I have indeed read the Koran. Not all of it advocates killing infidels. Some of it says to enslave them. Other parts say to treat Christians and Jews well, because they are the brothers of Islam. However, there are still parts that command Muslims to kill infidels. That is undeniable. And, to boot, there are a lot of sections that propogate that command. I believe that part of respecting other people's right to hold their own beliefs, is understanding their beliefs, which is why I have read the Koran in it's entirety. There are peaceful Muslims, they just aren't fundemental Muslims.

Josephus- Bush didn't kill Hussein. The Iraqi people did that one, all by themselves. Lol. I wouldn't have hung him, that's a shitty way to die. I'm all for the guillotine... Quick and painless.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 9:04 PM | PERMALINK

Lol. Once again, there is a huge difference between biblical christianity and what most people practice. There is not such a huge dichotomy in the Muslim world.
Posted by: Eon B

Like I said ... you're less naive than you are a bigot. Conservatives frequently do this ... the most bloodthirsty genocides of Christianity were not "truly" Christian, just as Bush is now not "really" a conservative.

Much of the product you guys sell is just shit ... eventually, the smell gets around.

Posted by: Gonads on December 4, 2008 at 9:05 PM | PERMALINK

If God wrote it or had it written - then I don't feel that you or I are qualified to "change" what we don't like. If you don't believe it, fine. But that doesn't change what it SAYS.
Posted by: tj

But if I don't believe God wrote it, or had it written, then it should absolutely be open to criticism, since fallible Satan-inspired charlatans like Warren may be purposely misinterpreting it for personal or political reasons.

Satan is everywhere, after all!

Posted by: Gonads on December 4, 2008 at 9:11 PM | PERMALINK

fostert-
You understand that a little bit of violence, directed properly, can prevent a lot more violence... That is good. Ideally, Bush would have removed Hussein from power, given him to the Iraqis, and left. Lol. However, America is greedy. Hussein might not have been a huge threat to us, anymore, but he was a threat to his own people... I was all for a humanitarian mission to Rwanda, why didn't it happen? Because unfortunately, the Rwandans don't really have anything to give us. I still think that we should go in there and fix the problem, even though they aren't a threat to the U.S. Same thing with Iran... Honestly, they aren't very much a threat to us, unless they finish their nukes. Iran's military is really pathetic. Unless they develop nukes, they aren't much of a threat. However, if there are obvious human rights abuses, then it is the international communities responsibility to fix it... I think that the international community, not the U.S, should take care of shit like that. Idk... This post is a bit convoluted, sorry.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 9:11 PM | PERMALINK

"However, fundamental Muslims, the ones who do what the Koran says, have a *religious* duty to kill non-believers, to convert them at the sword."

Please read the Quran before you make claims on what it says. And I mean read all of it, not the cherry-picked out of context quotes posted on Christianist websites. There are plenty of offensive passages, but there's nothing about forcible conversion. As for killing non-believers, the Quran says that in the context of killing only those who are trying to kill or forcibly convert you. If you knew a lick of history, you'd know that forcible conversion was very rare among the Muslims. The main exceptions were the forcible conversions of Zoroastrians in Persia and Buddhists in India. And you'd know that the Christians have had a long and uninterrupted history of forcible conversion starting with Constantine and ending with WWII.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 9:11 PM | PERMALINK

GOVERNMENT: What Warren refers to.

A CHURCH: What Warren leads.

GOVERNMENT OF ALASKA: What Palin leads.

A CHURCH: What Palin is a member of.

GOVERNMENT OF IRAN: What Amadijinidan leads.

MUSLIM TEMPLES: What the ayatollahs lead.

SENATORS: What McCain and Obama were while running for President.

GOVERNMENT: What senators are a part of.

CHURCHES: Lots of people go to these. Not many people go every week, and millions don't go at all.

THE CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS: A group of people who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, whatever these teachings are interpreted as.

GUNS: What people use to kill people and animals.

GUNS: What Warren apparently wants to use to kill the leader of the Government of Iran, even though his representatives quote the Bible and not the Koran.

I don't know about you, but to me this looks messy.

Posted by: T on December 4, 2008 at 9:15 PM | PERMALINK

Tax the churches back to the stone age. These "godlike" people have way too much money on their hands. If the christ was so correct, what are all these people doing with all this money? Waging war, of course. Killing non-christians. How holy is that?

Posted by: Blue-eyed Vidiot on December 4, 2008 at 9:16 PM | PERMALINK

Where the fuck does it say in the Bible that the role of government is to kill evildoers? Seriously, the world would be a lot happier place if people started questioning some of the crazy shit they hear, rather than running around screeching, ''God's will!!! God's will!!!''just because some guy in a black dress said it. That particular edition must have had only two copies, and George Bush has the other one.

The Bible appears to have been deliberately written in a vague and ambiguous fashion, so that many interpretations of a particular passage are possible. That's probably why we have so many religious leaders.

Posted by: Mark on December 4, 2008 at 9:17 PM | PERMALINK

fostert-You understand that a little bit of violence, directed properly, can prevent a lot more violence...
Posted by: Eon B

Bin Laden certainly said something like this to justify 9/11. I'm glad to see you coming closer to articulating your genocidal fantasy.

You're becoming more Christian all the time. I certainly sensed the presence of the Holy Spirit in that comment.

Posted by: Gonads on December 4, 2008 at 9:18 PM | PERMALINK

"But that doesn't change what it SAYS."

But what it says is open to interpretation and varies by which Bible you choose to read. And we should understand that the King James Bible is an English translation of a Roman translation of a redacted version of a collection of Aramaic writings that were translated into Greek. Think something might have changed in that process? So, really, which Bible are you talking about and what does it really say?

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 9:19 PM | PERMALINK

Romans 13, one of the more authoritarian passages in the Bible:

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Does Grover Norquist know about that bit about taxees? :)

Posted by: rea on December 4, 2008 at 9:19 PM | PERMALINK

I /have/ read the Koran. If I had my copy with me, I could direct you to the passages that I am referring to. I am not implying that everything in the Koran is evil, lol. Muslims actually had a fairly decent justice system, and were concerned about poverty, et c...

I don't care that the Koran has "offensive," passages, so does the Bible. Any religion will have "offensive," passages throughout it's books. However, I stand by what I said about biblical Christianity. It /never/ ever advocates forcible conversion, or killing your enemies, or situational ethics.

And I'm not saying that we should kill Muslims because they don't believe what I do. That's just what the majority of Muslims say about me. Just because people commit evils in the name of Christianity doesn't mean that Christianity is evil. It means that those people are committing evil acts. Muslims have done a lot of good things for society, like preserving science, for example. On the whole though, the influence of true Christianity brings about much better living circumstances and freedoms. I am /not/ a bigot. I don't hate Muslims. At all. I do not advocate killing Muslims because of their beliefs. There are a lot of Muslims who do advocate killing me for my beliefs, though. /They/ are bigots, not me.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 9:21 PM | PERMALINK

tj, you have heard that it was said, ‘Love your friends, hate your enemies.’ But now I tell you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. If Ahmadinejad slaps you on the cheek, give him your other cheek.

Do not return evil for evil, but overcome evil with good.

Posted by: Jesus on December 4, 2008 at 9:30 PM | PERMALINK

tj:
I have 16 years in the US navy under my belt, what have you done for others besides sit on your fat ass and cram your beliefs down other peoples throat?
And what did I say that offended you personally? Where in the New Testament did Jesus say anything other than words of love? Where did Jesus say it was ok to kill people that you think are evil?

If you are a Christian you should be living as Christ taught no?

"Love thine enemy"
"Turn the other cheek"
If you ask me Jesus sounds pretty darned liberal.

Posted by: Doc Gold on December 4, 2008 at 9:30 PM | PERMALINK

"However, if there are obvious human rights abuses, then it is the international communities responsibility to fix it"

In principle, I'd fully agree. But it's not that easy, is it? I'm appalled by the human rights abusive of Iran. But I was appalled by the human rights abuses of the Shah as well. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. We should remember that when Idi Amin came to power, he deposed a really nasty ruler. And people had hope for Uganda. Then look at what happened. When we were first talking about invading Iraq, people always talked about how bad Saddam was. And I'd say:Look, I opposed Hussein back when Reagan supported him and have opposed him ever since. But who's going to replace him? Is he going to be better? So far, it seems so. But after we leave, who's going to take over then? We should remember the lesson of Cambodia: as bad as things are, they can always get worse. So when we overthrow leaders who abuse human rights, we should make sure we have someone better to replace him.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 9:30 PM | PERMALINK

First of all, Hannity is idealogically intolerant, and has no business conducting a show on public airwaves. Whoever he has on his show is there to be a punching bag or to confirm his badly skewed perspective.
Here's the other side of the coin for "taking out" Ahmadenajad. Our own "W" dragged the world, kicking and screaming into a war that it didn't want. Our "smart" bombs turned out to be maybe not so smart, as significant civilian casualties were inflicted throughout the campaign. Over a third of those casualties were children. So, according to all those Iraqi parents who are mourning the loss of their children, who is the real terrorist? Were there children evildoers? Don't they have the same right to protect their families from a known killer like "W" by taking HIM out?
Actually, NOBODY has the right to take ANYBODY
out. You who purport to know who Jesus would bobm or what he would do are diluted in your selfrighteous assumptions of knowing God's mind, and HOW DARE YOU.
Get a grip and focus on bringing more good and more knowledge into your own life and maybe you won't feel the need to govern everybody else's life.

Posted by: walt slavin on December 4, 2008 at 9:34 PM | PERMALINK

Gonad- you're a troll. I am not advocating genocide of any type. I believe that Christians should "turn the other cheek," when persecuted for their beliefs. I believe that Christians should love their enemies. I believe that if a Muslim wants to kill me because I am a Christian, then so be it. I am trying to separate the entire religious argument from the purely pragmatic governmental one. So, cut the religious bullshit, because like I said, a government shouldn't be a religious one. Our government's responsiblity, according to the government... Is to protect the citizens. That's a very simplified version of it, but that is the government's duty. To protect us. From a governmental standpoint, if that means we have to nuke Japan, that is acceptable. If it means that we have to beat the shit out of terrorists, then it's acceptable, from a purely governmental stadpoint.

Now, don't misinterpret that. I am not advocating torture, because this world is far more complex than to allow us to go about solving a problem from one simple vantage point. We, as a country, should not make decisions because it makes sense, according to governmental lines of thought. What people forget, especially when they are put in positions of power, is that fighting a war is not just about numbers and statistics. Each of those little numbers accounting for a prisoner, or casualty, stands for a human being. So, from a perspective of humanity, there are limits on what we should do, as a government. Regardless of how hard it makes it for us to win a war, we should not torture prisoners. Ever. Evar. Haha. We should never intentionally target civilians. Ever. We should take the utmost precaution to avoid killing soft targets. Period.
However, war is war, and there will always be civilian casualties. One of the reasons that this war sucks so bad, is because the terrorists hide behind civilian targets. Not because they are afraid, but because they know that it reduces our capability to strike at them. Because, regardless of the exceptions, we generally don't attack civilians. Like anything, however, there ahve been exceptions, and the people who have violated the basic respect for civilian life deserve to be punished. If a soldier knowingly murders soft targets, he deserves the death penalty. Period. Idk. I'm sure I'm coming across as an asshole conservative, but I really am not either.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 9:35 PM | PERMALINK

If he really meant Romans 13, it's a classic case of taking verses out of context.

Because, after the first half, about government, this is what verses 8-10 say:

Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.

Hardly a war-cry, imho.

I would also consider Romans 13 in the context of the last verse of Romans 12 -

Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good.

"Conquer evil with good". Again, not a war-cry, I would submit.

Posted by: Cautious Man on December 4, 2008 at 9:37 PM | PERMALINK

In my opinion, Warren is now no better in my eyes than the radical Islamist mullahs who routinely issue fatwahs ordering people to be killed.

Posted by: Matt on December 4, 2008 at 9:38 PM | PERMALINK

Cautious Man-cosigned!

I think the very passage referenced was misinterpretted from the start or willfully maligned. Not the first time for that and unfortunately not the last.

Posted by: Doc Gold on December 4, 2008 at 9:40 PM | PERMALINK

fostert- you hit the nail on the head, with something a lot of people don't understand... The issues are a hell of a lot more complex than they seem. Lol. When I was on Ft. Benning, I used to walk by the School of the America's, every day... The thought of what our government did inside that little building just really pissed me off. We meddle in affairs that we shouldn't, because we are, at heart, an imperialistic nation. I'm not advocating total isolation, obviously, i think that there are sometimes conflicts in which the world would obviously benefit from our help, but we don't need to meddle with south america, for example. But, anyways. My point, which we agree on, is that despite the idealistic solutions to problems that people have, the issue at hand will always be more complex than the solution... There will never be a perfect solution for such a complex issue as Iran, for example. Hopefully, the people will depose him, and he will never become a threat.

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 9:42 PM | PERMALINK

"That's just what the majority of Muslims say about me."

No, it's not. I'd recommend you travel in Muslim countries before you say that. I've been to many and talked to many Muslims. They are mostly just regular peaceful people. And as a Buddhist, they have far more problems with me than they have with any Christian. I'm not "of the Book." Yet every Muslim I've met has been nothing but gracious to me. I wish I'd could say that about the Christians I've met.

"It /never/ ever advocates forcible conversion, or killing your enemies"

You're right about forcible conversion (except for Revelation, of course), but the Quran is equally adamant against it. But the Bible never advocating killing you're enemies? Come on. Pull out you Bible and read the Book of Joshua. And tell me one place where Joshua is condemned for the genocide he commits. Joshua was a genocidal maniac, and he is celebrated for his deeds. And then turn to Revelation. Explain to me how the killing of non-Christians is discouraged in that book.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 9:43 PM | PERMALINK

"In any case, if this were a conversation between an Iranian TV host and an ayatollah in which they discussed scriptural justifications for "taking out" high ranking members of the U.S. government"

What about Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad saying that Israel is a bunch of Zionists and that the country of Israel should be removed from the map?! The guy denies that the holocaust ever occurred! It is people like most on this blog that were Seig Heiling Hitler when he was making plans to rule the world...wake up you mindless sheep! The world would have been a lot better off if someone had put a bullet in Adolph's head about 5 years before the coward did it to himself. "Evil abounds when good men do nothing."

Posted by: peacethrustrength on December 4, 2008 at 9:44 PM | PERMALINK

I haven't trusted Warren since the Terri Schiavo fiasco. I heard him suggest to one reporter that her husband must have had something to hide about his treatment of her (suggesting he abused or mistreated her), since he wanted her dead so badly (I'm paraphrasing). It struck me as an extremely unChristian thing to say about another human being. I frankly thought he should've been sued for slander (or libel, I always get them confused). Now he wants to sponsor the assassination of another sovereign nation's leader. I agree with the author of the article...Why is it religious extremism when another country threatens us, but patriotism when we threaten or kill people in other countries?

Posted by: Fspence on December 4, 2008 at 9:44 PM | PERMALINK

"Inch deep" describes that article - and the lib commenters here - quite well.
When the leader of a nation REPEATEDLY calls for the nuclear annihilation of another nation - and is actively pursuing the means to do so - precisely what the hell evidence do you "progressive thinkers" have that makes you believe he's not serious?

Mom-mooed AhmaWhackjob is a figurehead for the mullahs who actually DO run Iran, and with their 7th century beliefs in the return of the 12th Imam, they are deadly serious about annihilating Israel.

Even non-Christians might agree that the mass murder of over 6 million people qualifies as a "BAD THING".

For those followers of the Church of Liberalism, let me point out a simple fact: suicide is actively DISCOURAGED by Christianity in general, and allowing evil to flourish unconfronted is ABETTING IT!

You people who tout your "non-judgmentalism" are passively aiding in your own destruction with your ostrich tactics.

Go get some sand in your boots and enter the real world - your delusions of superiority will get your butts killed by the maniacs you're NOT judging.

Posted by: TouchStone on December 4, 2008 at 9:45 PM | PERMALINK

I just love all the real Americans here that are pissing in their pants because the Iranian leader says he wants to kill Americans. Grow a spine. So what? Let him come for me. I'm not afraid. Sheesh. Let's quit driving foreign policy on the fears of wimps.

I'm an American and Americans don't kill foreign leaders for the hell of it. We are the good guys. If we have to die to prove it, I'm ready.

The problem is we've grown soft and want our soldiers to bully for us. It's a poor use of those heros. My son is one. Too bad people like tj won't join him.

Posted by: Always Hopeful on December 4, 2008 at 9:46 PM | PERMALINK

As a loyal subject of Her Majesty the Queen, I'm glad to see that the Bible says that God will punish you Yanks for rebelling against the authority He instituted.

Hey, tj, where are you posting from- Iraq or Afghanistan?

Posted by: MikeN on December 4, 2008 at 9:48 PM | PERMALINK

The one thing I would have to say about religion is this... It pisses non-Christians off, when they see all of the abuses that are done under the pretext of Christianity. It pisses me off, too. In fact, it probably pisses me off even more, because people are committing atrocities in the name of something that I hold very dear, my faith. So, have a little bit of common sense, and respect, and differintiate *sp between people who don't understand Jesus' words, and those who do. Not to say that I am perfect, by far, but I actually make an effort on a day to day basis to respect the commands that I have been given... Too many "libs" just make blanket statements about Christians, and assume that they are all the same. That's not to excuse "christians," from making blanket statements about non-christians. I know a lot of "pagans," who have done very generous things for a lot of people. Despite what Christians believe, a lot of liberal people actually care about poverty, social issues, et c... Just because I believe that you might be misguided on an issue doesnt mean that I will assume you have terrible intentions. All the same, non christians should understand that a lot of christians also care about poverty and social issues, lol. Anyone who really has an active faith in Christ will tell you that one of the most important parts of their life is to care for the people who are weaker, or in a bad spot, in life.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 9:50 PM | PERMALINK

What about Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad saying that Israel is a bunch of Zionists and that the country of Israel should be removed from the map?! The guy denies that the holocaust ever occurred!

What about Bush lying about Iraqi WMDs as a pretense to invading and killing over 200,000 civilians? The guy is directly responsible for an ongoing war crime, not just talking about one.

...The world would have been a lot better off if someone had put a bullet in Adolph's head about 5 years before the coward did it to himself. "Evil abounds when good men do nothing."
Posted by: peacethrustrength

Similarly, a well-placed bullet could have prevented the war crime that was the Iraq invasion. ... How's that sound to you? I'm sure the world, if you polled them, would agree we'd be better off.

... Until they met Cheney, anyways. Which is an interesting tangential point; the next bastard waiting in the wings may be worse.

Posted by: Gonads on December 4, 2008 at 9:52 PM | PERMALINK

Wow, all this fear and hatred of a Middle Eastern leader who is no threat to us, his neighbors, or Israel.

It's like being transported back to 2002.

Posted by: trex on December 4, 2008 at 9:54 PM | PERMALINK

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians...they are so unlike your Christ."
---Ghandi

Posted by: boogie on December 4, 2008 at 9:55 PM | PERMALINK

"Hopefully, the people will depose him, and he will never become a threat. "

I'm confident they will. He has destroyed the Iranian economy at a time of record oil prices. It takes colossal incompetence to pull that off. Hell, Chavez can't even come close to that. And when you mess with people's money, they don't vote for you. Ahmadinejad has screwed things up so badly that Iranians would rather have Rafsanjani. And they think he's just a corrupt, opportunistic poseur. But Rafsanjani's got the power he wants, he'll have one of his cronies run instead. Strangely, the Iranian people are actually very pro-American by Middle East standards. More so than the Turks, for instance. I bet they'd respond to an Obama endorsement. If Obama says "this is the guy I can work with, and I'll work with him," I'm guessing the Iranians will vote that guy in.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM | PERMALINK

Could that Jay B kid be any more lame? Clearly you've read a Richard Dawkins book--your rhetoric is lifted word for word from his book "The God Delusion" and lectures he has given at authors forums. I've seen them too, it's cute that you can paraphrase them though. Keep going with whole free thought thing you're into. Oh wait.

Posted by: alex on December 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM | PERMALINK

fostert- you're right, there are a lot of muslims who are good people, i didn't mean to imply that there aren't... "sometimes the vocal minority acn sound like the majority." However, I don't think that the number of radical, fundamental muslims is as low as people would like to believe. It's also probably not as high as I think. I've never been to a predominantly Muslim country, but I've hung around a lot of Muslims in France, and most of their families really hate non-Muslims. I know I shouldn't take that to represent the /majority/ of muslims, but the fact is that a lot of muslims are out to kill americans and christians, et c...

About revelations... The thing is, in Revelations, Christians aren't killing the non-believers, it's God doing that... It's the judgement of humanity. There is a big difference between God killing people, and people taking his name and using it, to justify slaughter. I know you're not a Christian, but look at it from the Christian/Jewish/ even Muslim point of view. Seeing as how God is perfect, and he created us... We messed up, and he told us before we messed up that the consequence for sin was death, It is totally within God's right to kill people. He created us, we disobeyed, we deserve the punishment. I mean, I'm not saying you should adopt that belief, obviously, but from my point of view, there is a big difference between God doing it, and people doing it. God has the right to kill someone, I as an individual do not, unless that person is infringing my responsibility to my family. And for all the people who would say that Jesus is love, and love only, they should read the whole bible, lol. Even in the gospels, he talked a lot about repentance and hell... But, something that isn't important, but is interesting, even the Muslims believe that Jesus is going to come back to /judge/ the world. I found that really interesting, when I read the Koran. Not something that is highly advertised by those "christianistic" websites. Lol

Posted by: Eon B. on December 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM | PERMALINK

I lost all respect for Warren (not that I had much...) after that BS deal with Obama and McCain earlier this year.

So, I'm not surprised - he's just another hypocritical, lying, money obsessed liar using the concept of religion to trick people. If there's a hell, which he must not really believe in judging from his conduct, may he have a nice time there.

Posted by: Jerome on December 4, 2008 at 10:05 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, I am also pretty optimistic about Iran, to be honest. They have a huge liberal college age population, which is exactly what they need right now, to oust president a.

btw, up until recently, I don't think that chavez did such a terrible job... the oil for doctors program was amazing.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 10:06 PM | PERMALINK

Ok lets get something straight, I don't like Ahmadinejad, at all. I think the guy has done nothing but disservice to Iran and its citizens and from what I have seen in the press and heard from my Persian friend most in Iran agree with me.
Is opinions are asinine and he speak through his arse yet his actions are well...he has no actions.

You can be real quick to justify killing a person because you don't like what he has to say, but that is a slippery slope, and when you try to interpret the bible to justify it well that is just poposterous.

Iran doesn't like Israel, but you know what, he is allowed to not like Israel, he is entitled to his opinions and until his ACTIONS *of which he has none* prove criminal or evil or whatever. He simply has every right to make an ass out of himself and run his country into the ground.

Incidently Iran's hatred of Israel is political and not religious. Iran boasts a significant population of Jews and Christians, both of which are recognized and protected and even have reserved seats in Parliament.

Posted by: Doc Gold on December 4, 2008 at 10:06 PM | PERMALINK

[tj's trolling is being deleted. --Mod]

Posted by: tj on December 4, 2008 at 10:08 PM | PERMALINK

Even non-Christians might agree that the mass murder of over 6 million people qualifies as a "BAD THING".

Even? Yes, most of us non-Christians do agree. Unfortunately, the Christians of Germany did not. But I really have a problem with that 'even.' The idea that I am somehow more likely than German Christians to support the extermination of people because I'm not Christian is really offensive. It's stuff like that simple insinuation that makes us non-Christians really upset with Christians. You simply assume that morals can only come from the Bible and that those of us who reject certain portions of the Bible cannot possibly have morals. Let me make this clear: I reject the portions of the Bible that I consider immoral. I'd like to see a Christian do that as well. Let's hear from a Christian who is willing to say that the acts depicted in Joshua were immoral. If you can't reject that, you are accepting the same kind of genocide that Ahmadinejad seems to advocate.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 10:10 PM | PERMALINK

Doc Gold- I am not advocating killing Ahmenidenijad, because I don't like the things he says... I'm not even advocating killing him... What I am advocating is the idea of the government's responsibility to eradicate a threat to it's citizens. I don't think that Ahmadinejad is really a threat. However, if he does become a threat to us, it is the governments responsibilty to remove the threat. He will probably never be a threat to the U.S. He may, however, become a threat to Israel. If that happens, it is the Israeli government's responsibility to protect it's people, regardless of whether the international community likes it or not. And, as we have an alliance with Israel, it is our government's responsibility to provide them with aid. I think alliances suck. It just creates a lot of problems for us. However, we have one with Israel, and we are bound to honor our commitment. As you know, if you're in the service, war is unsavory. It sucks balls. The 82nd sucks even more balls. Iran's hate for Israel certainly /seems/ to be religious, not political.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 10:25 PM | PERMALINK

For those that do not know. Christianity only follows the teachings of new testament, not the old testament that is full of evil doings. The Bible does have both, but the old testament is only there because of its historical importance. Of course, there are certain parts that christians believe that is part of the old testament, but those are general in nature and do not condone killing. The parts that condone killing and the such are not followed by Christianity. Actually, the only thing that comes from the old testament is some beliefs but the rules and commands that true Christianity follows is in the new testament which is not full of evil deeds like the old testament. However, even though this is the truth for true Christianity, most people do not pratice it and many actually try to follow the old testament making them anything but true christians. Feel free to disagree if you think something is wrong, but remember evil goes both ways. And for the one who said that christians think atheists are inferior, I tell you that many actually do, but isn't it the same with many atheists? Don't they see religious people as inferior? In reality, the only atheists that I see here are like that. They may not believe it, but what they say clearly shows that they thing people who believe in any religion are inferior to them.

Posted by: Er on December 4, 2008 at 10:27 PM | PERMALINK

fostert- I don't think that morals come from the Bible, lol... Personally, I think that every human being has them built in, and instinctively knows morally right from wrong. Maybe that's just me...

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 10:29 PM | PERMALINK

"even the Muslims believe that Jesus is going to come back to /judge/ the world"

Not all Muslims. Some Shia believe that Hujjat ibn al-Hassan, the Mahdi (Hidden Imam) will do the judging. But he'll reappear with Jesus, anyway. For me, I believe we are constantly judged by Karma. So I can't commit bad deeds and then just repent. Buddhists always have to be good (not that they are). Interestingly, Muslims also have a vague concept of Karma. Allah won't save you no matter how much you pray to him. You must also live a righteous life. There is no repentance in Islam. It is my belief that Christianity became popular for two reasons. First, they killed people who didn't convert,and they had huge invading armies to back that up. Second, the concept of repentance allows for bad behavior because you can always accept Jesus just before you die. Jesus forgives, Karma does not. It's easier to accept a religion that will forgive you.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 10:29 PM | PERMALINK

tj, well it comes to that does it? You want to kick my ass because I don't agree with you? let me quote my first post if you don't mind?
"Ok justifying killing of political targets or waging wars against countries with the bible is exactly how the terrorist justify their actions and rally their supporters. "Evil" is relative. Arabs that fly airplanes into building use the same logic, shame on Warren and Hannity for reducing Christians to the level of muslim extremists..."
Not once did I call you intolerant...

Somehow you take that as a personal attack against you and all Christians, thats pretty sad. And then through glaring generalization I am *to you* an pro-illegal immigrant, pro-welfare, pro-gay, pro-everthing-that-tj-doesn't-like.

You snap and snarl at air like a wounded dog, you rant about and sling ad hominea and when people stop talking to you, you assume its because you won an argument, well guess what there sunshine, they stop talking because nobody likes talking to box of rocks.

You can yell, scream and piss your pants at how unfair the world is, how weak the country has become and even how "my" Navy isn't as strong as "your" Navy...and blame the liberals if you want but the world is changing, change with it or be left behind.

lead, follow, or get the f**k out of the way

Posted by: Doc Gold on December 4, 2008 at 10:30 PM | PERMALINK

Idk, I think that Christianity is different, because salvation isn't about doing enough good deeds to get into heaven... There is difference between feeling bad for your actions, and repenting and accepting the gift of salvation... Idk, that is why it seems so extraordinary to me, because Christ tells us that we can't just earn our salvation. Of course, when people read into the Bible a little bit deeper, they also find the passages, for example, in James, that say faith without works is dead.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 10:33 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, good, my tax dollars go to training TJ to learn how to stomp hippie faggot ass back in the states.

Luckily, most of us are sufficiently familiar with the military to know how unrepresentative you are, otherwise people like you might be capable of causing a rift.

Now if I could only find a second silver linings to Iraq.

Posted by: gil mann on December 4, 2008 at 10:34 PM | PERMALINK

But, yeah... I don't think this is necessarily the place for discussion about the fine points of faith, haha.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 10:35 PM | PERMALINK

Sorry, Doc, I was spacing out watching the pregnant guy on Barbara Walters and didn't refresh before posting. Didn't mean to imply you needed backup.

Posted by: gil mann on December 4, 2008 at 10:37 PM | PERMALINK

Of course we should stomp the hippy faggots into the ground, they advocate free love... O_O

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 10:38 PM | PERMALINK

"Christianity only follows the teachings of new testament, not the old testament that is full of evil doings"

Thanks Er. I knew that, but too many Christians do not. And too many non-Christians do not, either. There is good reason to reject much of Leviticus (there aren't enough lambs in the world to sacrifice for our wrongdoings- there isn't even enough frankincense). But the story of Joseph is a great story and needs to be part of the teachings (hell, it should be in non-Abrahamic religions, too). And everyone should read the Book of Ruth. That's my favorite. It's the ultimate "strength through peace" story.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 10:43 PM | PERMALINK

The Jewish system was never meant to be the final, perfect system, no offense to any Jews here... The messiah came and replaced it... A lot of the Jewish tradition/history was looking forward to Christ, and symbolizing his life and sacrifice.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 10:47 PM | PERMALINK

JL Meal, wow Hannity is a bona-fide war hero,
I mean think of all the sacrifice he has made for the US. The mortal danger he has braved, the imminent danger he has faced, the time away from his friends and family while saving the country from the brink of destruction.
thank God we have him on the front lines in Afghanistan...oh wait thats right...nevermind he is just an entertainer whoring himself for ratings.

You choose some interesting heroes.

Posted by: Doc Gold on December 4, 2008 at 10:47 PM | PERMALINK

This is typical. A rich minister from Lake Forrest, California (Orange County). Not only that, people bought his book, "The Purpose Driven Life."

I have never read, nor did I buy Rick Warren's book.

People need to step up their game. Stop relying on these pastors, ministers as a GOD. You need to find out more about your rich minister. Where did he/she come from? Is he/she a convicted felon released from prison - con game. See, they can't get most jobs, nor vote because of their past. Does he/she really love God, or is he/she doing this for the money?

I am saying this, because these ministers/pastors are living a life most people can only dream of. Yeah, true some of the riches they have like yachts, vacation homes, cars, jewelry, planes, etc. is donated, but, think, wasn't that supposed to be for the church? Why don't they sell these luxuries to help with church expenses, feeding the poor, helping fellow-members faced with medical bills/bankruptcy?

And to top it off, he is in, what I like to call "Republican Country."

No, I am not atheist. But, these past 8 years with our so-called leaders, I woke up. It's all greed with these folks.

It's time we, the American people demand a separation of church and state.

It's not working!!!! Besides, who's to say one religion is better than the other. Why is the Right Evangelical and the Right Mormon trying to force their beliefs on everyone? Then you have the Catholics telling their parishoners to repent if they voted for Obama. Wow, did they ask them to repent if they voted to go to war in Iraq, or if they voted for Bush? - obviously, he cared nothing about the less wealthy victims of natural disasters.

Posted by: Annjell on December 4, 2008 at 10:48 PM | PERMALINK

jay b. with the depth of your intolerance, you'd make one fine republican.

Posted by: mudwall jackson on December 4, 2008 at 10:50 PM | PERMALINK

@Jay B on December 4, 2008 at 6:23 PM

Well said man, well said.

Posted by: percival_sweetwater on December 4, 2008 at 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

You know, there is a television show that is a great commentary on this entire situation... Lol. Battlestar Galactica, the reimagined one.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 10:53 PM | PERMALINK

Stalin killed well over 14 million people, lol. -- Eon B, @ 20:54

Yes, Eon; it's very, *very* funny.

Does anyone here remember Swan? Can Eon B "it"? Maybe not... Swan was a male and LOLs tend to be more characteristic of females...

Posted by: exlibra on December 4, 2008 at 10:56 PM | PERMALINK

I find it amazing that people like EonB talk about eliminating foreign leaders because they dont believe in "sanctity of human life". Really, after all that the US has done in Iraq? On that basis, wouldnt any Arab group be justified in targeting Western leaders? Were you schooled in the Bin Laden School of Reasoning, EonB?

I have lived and worked in Muslim-majority countries and I know that EonB's claim that "majority" of Muslims support forcible conversion is a blatant lie. People like Hannity, Warren & Co. are the ideological counterparts of Bin Laden. Proves there are wackos in every religion.

Posted by: Sarah McNie on December 4, 2008 at 11:00 PM | PERMALINK

Jeez. Yeah. I don't find the deaths funny, I just thought it was funny how people were overlooking the fact that atheists kill people, too. Murder isn't a Christian problem, it's a human problem.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 11:00 PM | PERMALINK

Wow. Okay, first, let me say (truth in advertising)that I am a Jew. But I'm pretty well read. Didn't Jesus say to his followers on the night that he was arrested, when they would have defended him violently, "put away your swords - those who live by the sword will die by the sword"? That does not sound to me like someone who was covertly advocating the overthrow of governments with whom we disagree. But like I said, I'm a Jew. Some of the finer points of evangelical Christian exegesis escape me.

Posted by: indian_red on December 4, 2008 at 11:00 PM | PERMALINK

I have lost a lot of respect for Sean Hannity over the last few months, I have seen him make way too many inflammatory comments lately and this one is a perfect example. I don't think a news commentator has any place advocating political assination.

Posted by: Dan on December 4, 2008 at 11:01 PM | PERMALINK

So, Warren is jsut abig fake afterall-glad I didn't bother to read his book. Another self-styled politican hiding behnd his church. He has lost any crediblity.

Posted by: steve on December 4, 2008 at 11:02 PM | PERMALINK

Make that assassination.

Posted by: Dan on December 4, 2008 at 11:03 PM | PERMALINK

"But the story of Joseph is a great story and needs to be part of the teachings (hell, it should be in non-Abrahamic religions, too)"

hmmm. I just thought about something. You could draw parallels between the Buddha's story and Joseph's. The differences would be that the Buddha's denial of his status came from himself and that he never returned to his family. But the Buddha did go from status to nothing and then regained his status through his virtue and good advice. And like Joseph, the Buddha advised kings wisely. In the end, religions tend to say mostly the same things. It's the emphasis and practice that separate our religions. Oh yeah, and the belief in a specific God. But on the specific God thing, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all worship the same One. And their theological differences are about things that most adherents of those religions don't really understand anyway. Think about it, how many Christians can really explain the nature of the Trinity. That's the biggest beef that Muslims have with Christianity, and most Muslims can't explain it either.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 11:03 PM | PERMALINK

@mudwall jackson

Ironic that our replies are back to back. You think that jayb sounds republican. Funny, I always vote Democratic.

Caveat I don't think that religion is inherently bad. How people pervert it is what is bad. My best example of this is the Catholic church protecting it's pedophile priests instead of outing the perverts and excommunicating them.

Pope JPII seemed like a great guy, but when I hear people call for him to be sainted, I think "how can a guy that allowed children to be molested by priests and didn't stand up and say WTF is going on here?" ever be sainted???

Can anyone give a plausible explanation for this?

Posted by: percival_sweetwater on December 4, 2008 at 11:04 PM | PERMALINK

I really thought some of you left wing folks had crawled back under a rock but you continue to hate more than ever anyone who has a differing opinion!

Posted by: Pat on December 4, 2008 at 11:05 PM | PERMALINK

What really is the difference between radical moslems and radical christians when Rick Warren makes comments like this?

Posted by: JD on December 4, 2008 at 11:05 PM | PERMALINK

indian_red- you are correct. Jesus was not covertly advocating the overthrow of any government... The Jews of that time were angry because they were expecting a messiah to give them literal deliverance from the Roman oppressors. Jesus didn't come to overthrow the Romans...

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 11:05 PM | PERMALINK

"interesting, even the Muslims believe that Jesus is going to come back to /judge/ the world. I found that really interesting, when I read the Koran."

EonB, nowhere does the Quran say that Jesus is coming back, or that he will judge the world. Please dont make claims on something you know very little about. Thats intellectual dishonesty.

Posted by: Ahmed Musa on December 4, 2008 at 11:07 PM | PERMALINK

fostert- maybe you could help me remember where I was talking about, when I mentioned the Koran talking about Jesus' return... I can't seem to find it. grr.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 11:10 PM | PERMALINK

Remove the personal references, and you wouldn't be able to tell this rhetoric from the Islamic extremist's. Just what we need, to be combatting theocracy both here and abroad.

Posted by: EJ on December 4, 2008 at 11:12 PM | PERMALINK

Christians who believe the bible is holy or that Jesus ever existed are fools. There is not one thread of evidence that Jesus actually existed.

The bible is nothing more then words written by men who were trying to control people.

Posted by: BJ on December 4, 2008 at 11:16 PM | PERMALINK

Goverments all over the world should outlaw religions. They cause most problems in the world.

Posted by: TR on December 4, 2008 at 11:19 PM | PERMALINK

Pat, oh Pat, it's amazing how people like you called lefties haters. Really?

Who are you Pat? Are you Pat Buchanan?LOL

Hey, shouldn't you be on a blog for that meth head Hannity. Really? He sure act like a meth or crack head?

Posted by: Annjell on December 4, 2008 at 11:20 PM | PERMALINK

...And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness." - 7:159


When God said: "Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me, and purify you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection. Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed.
(Surah Al 'Imran, 3:55)

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 11:21 PM | PERMALINK

"Can anyone give a plausible explanation for this?"

Pope John Paul II did a hell of a lot for world peace. And he did a hell of a lot for religious reconciliation. Every saint has his sins, just take a look at St Augustine. But Jesus forgives, and so do I. Compared to the great works John Paul did, his failure to stop the child rape simply pales. I have no dog in this fight, but I'd certainly support his Sainthood. If you want a better defense of it, ask someone from Poland. He did more than Lech Walensa for Poland's freedom. I have my issues with the catholic Church, but John Paul II isn't one of them.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 11:25 PM | PERMALINK

I really believe that there will come a time when devoted christians in america will be either jailed or put to death by those who dispise and hate them, for whatever their reasons.

Posted by: jm on December 4, 2008 at 11:26 PM | PERMALINK

BJ, I agree with you 100%.

Here's why, if have ever read "Plato's Republic," in philophy. Then read the old testament of the bible, you will see these Greek philosophers warnings about each other.

Go figure!!!!!

Posted by: Annjell on December 4, 2008 at 11:26 PM | PERMALINK

Hehe. St. Augustine. I love his writing, very good read.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 11:27 PM | PERMALINK

BJ- Are Muslims fools, too? They believe that the Koran is holy... They believe that Jesus was alive. They believe that he had a virgin birth. Are they fools?

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 11:31 PM | PERMALINK

I really believe that there will come a time when devoted christians in america will be either jailed or put to death by those who dispise and hate them, for whatever their reasons.
Posted by: jm

Spelling errors, mostly.

Posted by: Gonads on December 4, 2008 at 11:35 PM | PERMALINK

"fostert- maybe you could help me remember where I was talking about, when I mentioned the Koran talking about Jesus' return... I can't seem to find it. grr."

Hard to find anything in the Quran, isn't it? The order make more sense when you consider that the order was determined by how easy it is to memorize. But start with Surah 53, line 50, and it should be around there. Different translations are different, so I'm giving you a line that should be before what you're looking for. In My Quran, it's 43:57. I'd quote it, but the context is important.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 11:39 PM | PERMALINK

Wow, have I been enlightened! I thought Hannity was a sit down comic and Coombs was his "straight man". As for religion, try reading The Urantia Book. I might give some newideas and thinking-that is to say of many of the respondents viewed here-actually think!

Posted by: Bud on December 4, 2008 at 11:40 PM | PERMALINK

"ut start with Surah 53, line 50"

Oops, that should be Surah 43. My fat fingers fail me again.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 11:40 PM | PERMALINK

Eon B - Yes, Moslems are fools for beleiving in their Koran. They are bigger fools for letting their gov'ts and leaders keep them in the 9th century.

Posted by: BJ on December 4, 2008 at 11:43 PM | PERMALINK

fostert- I think that I found what I was looking for... I posted it up above. I don't have my copy with me, unfortunately, I'm not at home.

Posted by: Eon B on December 4, 2008 at 11:44 PM | PERMALINK

"As for religion, try reading The Urantia Book."

Please don't give me bad memories. The book is interesting, but the followers can be just plain crazy. That was the only weird cult experience in my life. And trust me, I'm not saying that Urantians are cultists, I just ran into some really weird ones. But I'll give them this credit: they let me leave.

Posted by: fostert on December 4, 2008 at 11:47 PM | PERMALINK

Once again, we have a left wing liberal who must blow things out of proportion.
#1 Iran is a huge threat to the US and world security in general. They have repeatedly threatened and tried to intimidate the US as well as it's neighboring countries and the western world in general. The mere fact that the phrase 'take him out' was used, DOES NOT in itself or entirety translate to starting a war! When an umpire takes a guy out of a game, does he kill him? does he start fighting with the team ? NO.
'Take him out' does NOT mean war mongering! Quite simply, there are other means to taking people out. I.E. negotiations, stricter sanctions from the UN, maybe inspiring their countrymen to uprise and replace their leader via non violent means. I see courts around the world throw leaders out of power ! (look at India, look at Thailand !) I don't see a war starting once a court issues a decree to take one out of power!!

#2. I bet if Obama,Pelosi, or even Reid came out saying we had to take him out, this miserable excuse of a reporter, nay, miserable excuse of a newspaper would be praising instead of ridiculing or saying he is war mongering!

Posted by: Bob on December 4, 2008 at 11:48 PM | PERMALINK

The above quote says that God, not Jesus, is judging Jesus' followers (alongside all humanity).

Posted by: Gonads on December 4, 2008 at 11:52 PM | PERMALINK

If you study the conditions for being designated a terrorist under the patriot act careful you will find FBI has almost grounds to arrest both sean and rick. If they changed Irans leader to the USA's or the EU's etc in their statements...
1. promoting a violent conspiracy
2. declaring jihad
We are so lucky obama is in now, surely he know the law since he was top of his class at havard...yeah ,right.

Take a look at the federalist papers written by hamilton..in his appeal to the state of new york he clearly warns of the danger of allowing sactimonious, self indulgent hotheads ( ON EITHER SIDE )to use the constitution to pervert liberty and damage the common good.
this blog, is being used for that purpose, as did sean use his position as a "journalist".

Posted by: focus on whats needed on December 4, 2008 at 11:57 PM | PERMALINK

I hardly find Hannity a comedian.

He's angry. In my book he's an idiot, a control freak.

Personally, I can't stand listening to him scream, yell, and acting worse than a nagging woman. (No offense to other women, I am a woman too).

Posted by: Annjell on December 4, 2008 at 11:59 PM | PERMALINK

"They are bigger fools for letting their gov'ts and leaders keep them in the 9th century."

That's really not true. Think about it, would you rather have our current dismal economic situation or Turkey's 14% economic growth rate? Islam can be, and is now in some places, conducive to scientific achievement and industrial growth. It's all in the interpretation. If you've ever been to Dubai, you cannot possibly look at it and say that they are somehow backwards. If we had that kind of vision, we'd be in a lot better shape. Of course,their human rights record isn't pretty. But they can do what they're doing and still offer rights. But they are victims of traditional Arab mentality. Sadly, Islam hasn't cured that yet.

Posted by: fostert on December 5, 2008 at 12:00 AM | PERMALINK

Gonads- the first one is clearly talking about Jesus, judging people... sorry, i didn't leave it in context.

Posted by: Eon B on December 5, 2008 at 12:02 AM | PERMALINK

EonB, the passages from the Quran that you mention clearly state that Jesus was raised to God. They do not say anything about his return to earth.

Muslims do believe that Prophet Jesus will return to fight evil. But it is not based on any passage in the Quran but rather sayings handed down from the Prophet Muhammad.

Lets get our facts straight here.

Posted by: Ahmed Musa on December 5, 2008 at 12:02 AM | PERMALINK

EonB, I'm afraid youre contradicting yourself, old chap.

...And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness." - 7:159

That passage clearly shows that Prophet Jesus will be a witness, not the judge. Similar passage exists about Prophet Muhammad. The second passage you quoted categorically states that God will be the Judge.

Posted by: Ahmed Musa on December 5, 2008 at 12:06 AM | PERMALINK

Read it again, Eon ... ask for help, if necessary. There is nothing of what you claim in that verse.

I curiously wonder how well you read the literature of your professed religion.

Posted by: Gonads on December 5, 2008 at 12:07 AM | PERMALINK

Well, I could easily be wrong about that, I am no scholar of the Koran. The first quote does clearly refer to Jesus judging his followers, though. I wish I could find it again, grr... I can't remember why I brought it up, anyway.

BJ- come on. You're just sooo tolerant. You're calling something like... What, 70 percent of the entire worlds population, fools.

Sarah Mcnie- read all of my posts, maybe you will get some context.

Posted by: Eon B on December 5, 2008 at 12:11 AM | PERMALINK

BJ:

No thread of evidence? Really? What caused the huge boom in the early church? What caused all of these people to teach and preach even at the risk of their own lives? A mental disorder? Come on.....You know what I would do if the person I was following and believed to be the Son of God died? I'd have assumed he was wrong and that I was wrong. I'd go back to doing whatever I did before following that person. What do you think the disciples did? Peter and James did go back to their vocation. Fishing!

Something happened that gave them so much faith and belief they would be willing to throw everything away for.

Im a religious person and I don't support treating the Bible like a salad bar nor as the tool to be used to deal with all circumstances. I've lived in Muslim country's and came out of it alot less ignorant and alot more respectful of their views. There are radicals of every group and religion and unfortunately they ruin it for everyone.

I can't recall at this time which writer said it but there is a saying that is sad but so true, "The biggest problem with Christianity is me." Meaning that people aren't perfect, some do irrepairable harm to groups, organizations, and religions. Others have hypocritical moments varying in degrees.

To blanket the whole organization, group, or religion as fanatics who never are better for their role in that particular body is ignorant and unfair. I've known plenty of people in my life that are better off for their religious views and even if you personally feel its all a lie why hate them because it works for them?

To say that religion is responsible for more bad then good is even grossly inaccurate. The quiet good that people do every minute, every hour of every day isn't reported in the news. You can bet your bottom dollar that if some evangelical fanatic gets caught molesting some child or making stereotypical comments its going to be launched over every channel and website.

The fact their is so much suffering and trajedy in this world says a whole lot less about any god or God and a whole lot more about us and how we are inherently. The United States alone has the power to end world hunger. Easily.

I don't have all the answers and I'll be the last person to claim I do or condemn some muslim or buddhist who is acting out their faith in a harmless way, but I do know that when I look around the world and even within my community, the things I see resonates that alot of people need a Savior, real or not.

If you want to be honest and claim to look at things with an open mind imagine the world without religion and if your truly honest, you might be surprised to realize how much it would effect volunteers, aid to both poverty and disease stricken countrys, and all other activities that people are selflessly doing for the betterment of others.

People are inherently selfish, and greedy. Together those two traits contribute much more to the violence in this world then any religious group.

Posted by: Davidj on December 5, 2008 at 12:12 AM | PERMALINK

Eon B - And you think I am incorrect to think so?

Posted by: BJ on December 5, 2008 at 12:14 AM | PERMALINK

Johnson 5 1\2. That's pretty good.

Posted by: ItsMike on December 5, 2008 at 12:14 AM | PERMALINK

Ahmed Musa- Thanks for clarifying, sorry, I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have been...

Gonads- stop trolling. what's the deal with the personal attacks?

Posted by: Eon B on December 5, 2008 at 12:15 AM | PERMALINK

BJ- I think it's a little bit arrogant of you to call the majority of the earth's population "fools." That's not to say that human beings aren't foolish, or even that you're wrong. Who knows for sure? I don't have any way of proving that God exists. But you don't have any way of proving that he doesn't. I mean, what really makes more sense, that an all powerful being created the universe, or that it just happened?

Posted by: Eon B on December 5, 2008 at 12:20 AM | PERMALINK

For all you Christians out there, I suggest you follow the teachings of Jesus. Not the old testament, not other prophets, not the apostles, or anybody else.

"You without sin be the first to cast a stone."

Right. Debate over. Nobody did. He stood against the death sentence. Against killing. And against envy, anger and revenge.

The only time he got angry, according to the Bible (did I miss something) was in the Temple over the money changers. That might be today's megachurches.

The only people he spoke reprovingly to were the rich. "It is harder for the rich to pass into heaven than a camel through the eye of the needle." Which, for those who are too ignorant to know, is a simile concerning the need for camels to unload before they could pass through the narrow gate cut into the wall of a city. I'm thinking Jesus was saying they would pick up a different enrichment on the other side, rather than retaining their wealth passed through the gate. But what do I know.

US Christians really need to get a grip on the reality of their religion rather than that promulgated by the egotists, bigots, salesmen, ideologists, etc., all of which are antithetical to Jesus' words.

Posted by: notthere on December 5, 2008 at 12:26 AM | PERMALINK

DavidJ - I agree with you except there really is no evidence of a historical Jesus. The New Testament was written 70-120 years after the supposed Jesu died. They were not written by the apostles.

Posted by: BJ on December 5, 2008 at 12:26 AM | PERMALINK

people bought his book, "The Purpose Driven Life."

I have a Porpoise-Driven Life, where a bossy sea-mammal tells me how to live.
It makes more sense than any of Warren's vacuous feel-swell drivel.

Posted by: tech98 on December 5, 2008 at 12:28 AM | PERMALINK

....from the conduct of the opposite parties, we shall be led to conclude that they will mutually hope to evince the justness of their opinions, and to increase the number of their converts by the loudness of their declamations and the bitterness of their invectives.

Happy will it be if our choice should be directed by a judicious estimate of our true interests, unperplexed and unbiased by considerations not connected with the public good.

...men may be actuated by upright intentions; and it cannot be doubted that much of the opposition , will spring from sources, blameless at least, if not respectablethe honest errors of minds led astray by preconceived jealousies and fears...
So numerous indeed and so powerful are the causes which serve to give a false bias to the judgment, that we, upon many occasions, see wise and good men on the wrong as well as on the right side of questions of the first magnitude to society. This circumstance, if duly attended to, would furnish a lesson of moderation to those who are ever so much persuaded of their being in the right in any controversy.
And a further reason for caution, in this respect, might be drawn from the reflection that we are not always sure that those who advocate the truth are influenced by purer principles than their antagonists. Ambition, avarice, personal animosity, party opposition, and many other motives not more laudable than these, are apt to operate as well upon those who support as those who oppose the right side of a question. Were there not even these inducements to moderation, nothing could be more ill-judged than that intolerant spirit which has, at all times, characterized political parties. For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. Heresies in either can rarely be cured by persecution.

Alexander Hamilton

and concerning Mr. Obama:
..of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.
was it Descarte that said those who know not history are doomed to repeat it?

Posted by: focus on whats needed on December 5, 2008 at 12:29 AM | PERMALINK

The goal of extremist is to kill all Americans. They want everyone who is not a believer in Islam dead. What is wrong with killing them first, before they can kill us? Warren and Hannity are exactly right. Or do you want them to kill us first. Their objective and goal has been stated many times by the president of Iran. Anyone with common sense should know what we need to do. Most of the comments here are not rational, and they come from idiots. This is my opinion. Remember 9-11. The goal of imanutjob is world domination.

Posted by: Rockey on December 5, 2008 at 12:29 AM | PERMALINK

Warren is an obvious pompous ass who thinks he's a man of God. I pity him. Hannity is truly evil. But they do God's will... God bless them both.

I'm a Christian Democrat (OMG, they actually exist!) and I want to add my opinion to some previous comments made.

First, take a look at the Book of Job. Who causes the bad things to happen? Last I checked, it was God so please stop blaming Satan for the bad things that happen. God has already taken the credit.

Also, just because Jesus came and we have the New Testament doesn't mean we can just throw out the Old Testament. Jesus' coming elaborated on what God's original meaning was. Like if you love God and love yor neighbor there needs to be no other commandments because you will automatically ahere to the original Ten.

Now, looking at the comments on the Book of Revelations, I have to point out that the whole thing is painfully, obviously metaphorical. Why would anyone take a literal interpretation of that? Do you interpret everything you read/see literally? Ever read/see Waiting for Godot? So literal, right? Not...

God doesn't actually kill nonbelievers, either. He throws them to the lake of fire, which is more akin to the fire to remove impurities (as we do to metals). He puts you through a type of "hell" for a time, not forever (bad translation from the Greek started that one), in order for you to come out pure so even the nonbelievers are saved in the end.

I never got the whole nonbelievers aren't save thing. Jesus came to save the whole world, and if just one person slipped through the cracks, he would have come for naught. I truly hate the superiority some Christians have in being the "chosen." We're ALL going to heaven. St Thomas Aquinas or St Auggie(I forget which at this hour) perpetuated all this hellfire and brimstone crap. The Greek text and histories show that universal reconciliation is what the early church, closest to the time of Christ, taught.

Have fun!

Posted by: akiko on December 5, 2008 at 12:32 AM | PERMALINK

Lets face it: there are people on every side who dont want terrorism to cease. Who has most to gain from terrorism? The obvious answer is Bin Laden and his ilk. But there are other players who stand to gain. These include fearmongers who want the violence to become a vicious cycle of hatred. They portray this as a struggle between faiths and civilisations when the majority of the people in the world want just to get on with their lives. These include politicians, theologians and intellectuals (Hannity and Warren are the tip of the iceberg) who want us to target terrorists but resist any attempt to look at the root causes of terrorism.

Posted by: Sarah McNie on December 5, 2008 at 12:35 AM | PERMALINK

This is the same Rick Warren who takes money from Rupert Murdoch for his seminary ( or should I call cult). Remember, Murdoch is the one who became famous for publishing topless young women's pictures in his tabloid and also for holding competition on who has the "most perfect boobs". Wonder if Mr. Warrren is going to say "That is according to Bible"!!!

Posted by: Rifat on December 5, 2008 at 12:35 AM | PERMALINK

notthere... well said.

akiko...exactly.

Posted by: focus on whats needed on December 5, 2008 at 12:36 AM | PERMALINK

Come on akiko. Read the book of Job. God /allowed/ those things to happen, it was Satan who did them. The Greek is actually pretty clear, when Jesus talked about hell. The majority of the time, when referring to it, it was presented as a very literal thing, the way it was worded.

Posted by: Eon B on December 5, 2008 at 12:39 AM | PERMALINK

tech98,

you're too funny!!!!

Posted by: Annjell on December 5, 2008 at 12:39 AM | PERMALINK

In the case of evil States like Iran "what would Jesus do?" is often asked.
He'd probably turn the other cheek and then get his head chopped off.
Fortunately, he could alway ressurrect himself in 3 days. We regular folks don't have such a luxury.
Whether it be the satanic verses of the Koran or the harsh dictates of Christianity or Judaism, religion has caused more death, destruction and war than any other entity.
I wish our scientist could find another habital planet in our solar system. It's sure getting tiresome here on this planet with all the combined ignorance.

Posted by: John B. on December 5, 2008 at 12:39 AM | PERMALINK

The "us versus them" ideology preached by Bush and his neo-conservative clique has landed the world in a mess. Its distressing to see that many people are still clinging to that rotten philosophy. Sarah has it just right. There are vested interests that want vioence, hate and murder to continue.

Posted by: Jim Jordan on December 5, 2008 at 12:41 AM | PERMALINK

Since printing hadn't been invented, hand-copying, and its inherent errors, were the method of promulgation. Just the fact that the written word survived, in extremely propitious circumstances, from within 100 years of his death raise the odds of the story being closer to the truth. As against McCauley and King Arthur.

Hand copying continued until the 15th century. The chances of finding the originals, if there are any surviving, are slim. If, for a while it was handed down as an oral tradition, still extant in places undestroyed by Western culture today, and later writen down is neither here nor there. The power of the message survived to become a religion.

I'm not religious, BJ, but you keep putting up strawmen.

Posted by: notthere on December 5, 2008 at 12:42 AM | PERMALINK

BTW BJ: it's called faith, dear, not stupidity. Maybe you should stop making the two synonomous. Even some of the greatest minds that graced this Earth believed.

Posted by: akiko on December 5, 2008 at 12:43 AM | PERMALINK

akiko- I do admire your optimism, though... A lot of people have lost that, and it's refreshing to see. Or read, I suppose.

Posted by: Eon B on December 5, 2008 at 12:45 AM | PERMALINK

Warren and Hannity say "Theyre out to get us. Lets get them first!" Over in Afghanistan, Bin Laden is telling his followers the same thing. They are two sides of the same coin. This over-simplification is at the root of the violence in the world today.

Posted by: Sam Galloway on December 5, 2008 at 12:46 AM | PERMALINK

BJ, I agree with you.

The most important thing is. We have these so-called ministers/pastors/priests that are supposed to do the right thing. Yet, we see them doing/saying things that don't jive with what's suppose to be christian-like.

I have just came to the conclusion, that they know most people who come to church as an adult for the first time is weak, looking for something, hurting, unhappy, and these so-called leaders are looking to exploit those needing some form of help/answers.

That's my take on the whole religion thing. They are all out to make a quick buck.

Posted by: Annjell on December 5, 2008 at 12:49 AM | PERMALINK

Eon B: I suggest You read it again. We'll look at it from your perspective. If God didn't give Satan the go-ahead, "allowed" it to happen, then what authority did Satan have? None. You prove my point by your own writing. God was the one who had bad things happen to Job. Satan did GOD's bidding if he did them.

And well, if you know the Greek, what have you to say about the translation of forever? The Greeks had different words for different nuiances that aren't caught by other language. It was never forever in the Greek but a time, an age... never forever.

Also, nope it wasn't Tartarus they were thrown into (Greek "hell" Tartarus it wasn't a lake of fire, to my recollection), and if it was, then I'm a bad girl... but I'll be saved anyway. And so will you.

Posted by: akiko on December 5, 2008 at 12:51 AM | PERMALINK

It's a stupid and highly dangerous work of fiction. Fighting this on the bible-thumpers territory is a recipe for getting nowhere.

I'm pretty sure that telling believers that their religious text is a "stupid and highly dangerous work of fiction" is a recipe for getting nowhere in terms of persuading them of anything.

except jesus, the christian messiah and supposedly who warren speaks for and has an intimate relationship with, was the "prince of peace" and instead of establishing a worldly kingdom preached that the real kingdom is in heaven.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - Matthew 10:34

Posted by: John on December 5, 2008 at 12:52 AM | PERMALINK

Why so many people can get so upset about striking out against the "Axis of Evil," whomever that details, is difficult for me to understand. Had Adolph Hitler been taken out before he attacked innocent neighboring countries, his plans to conquer the world would have ended there and millions of lives saved. Does the Bible support such action against the evil nations? Indeed it does. Just read the Old Testament where God himself instructed his people to battle against these evil doers and told them not to spare anyone, but to slay every man, woman and child...yes...even children. Unfortunately, there is no other alternative when it comes to stamping out evil and protecting your people and country from those who are determined to destroy you.

Posted by: M Y Parker on December 5, 2008 at 12:52 AM | PERMALINK

Focus on what's needed:

Likewise.

Though I'm not sure Obama is demogogic. Hoping not.

Posted by: notthere on December 5, 2008 at 12:53 AM | PERMALINK

Eon B you made my night. Thanks for the compliment, really. Funny, my hubby calls me a pessimist, though... maybe I should show him your reply :) And again, it's faith. Nothing more.

Posted by: akiko on December 5, 2008 at 12:55 AM | PERMALINK

In the case of evil States like Iran "what would Jesus do?" is often asked.
He'd probably turn the other cheek and then get his head chopped off.
Fortunately, he could alway ressurrect himself in 3 days. We regular folks don't have such a luxury.
Whether it be the satanic verses of the Koran or the harsh dictates of Christianity or Judaism, religion has caused more death, destruction and war than any other entity.
I wish our scientist could find another habital planet in our galactic system. It's sure getting tiresome here on this planet with all the combined ignorance.

Posted by: John B. on December 5, 2008 at 12:55 AM | PERMALINK

John, the sword in the Bible when spoken from Jesus was to mean the Sword of Truth, as in being the emodiment of God's Word... nothing slays like the truth, eh?

Posted by: akiko on December 5, 2008 at 12:58 AM | PERMALINK

M Y Parker:

Just guessing, but you aren't a Christian, then?

Posted by: notthere on December 5, 2008 at 12:59 AM | PERMALINK

akiko- No, I don't read koine Greek at all, anymore... I studied it for a while, when I was in high school, and one of my favorite things to do was direct translations from the greek, using a dictionary of course... There are also some dictionaries online, if you look. It's been a little while since I did all of that, though. Probably a good idea for me to get back into it, knowing the original language is really important. Hebrew is a totally different story, though. Well, idk. The way I understand free will, or the limited choice that Satan has... God allows us to make our own choices, does that make him responsible for our actions? I don't think so, personally. God allows us to make our own choices (at the same time he knows what we will choose, since He's omnipotent), but he isn't responsible for them. I think that there is a difference in saying that God allowed Job to be tested, rather than God tested Job.

Posted by: Eon B on December 5, 2008 at 1:07 AM | PERMALINK

Love

Posted by: Wayne on December 5, 2008 at 1:19 AM | PERMALINK

Eon - "God allows us to make our own choices (at the same time he knows what we will choose, since He's omnipotent" Do you really belive that "God allows". Did God also create the world in 6 days?

Posted by: bj on December 5, 2008 at 1:20 AM | PERMALINK

Eon B: Ok, I'm not a freewill believer. I believe everything has been planned from the start, right down to every word I put in this post. I believe we have the illusion of freewill because we don't know God's plan and we seem to be making choices, but all along God hasn't allowed us to do anything but follow His plan. Following HIS will is another story entirely...

I thought what God says to Job at the end of the Book it kinda makes the whole Satan challenge irrelevant. He comes out and says it was His doing and to not question (what have I done to deserve this?) Him because he's the maker and controller of all. IDK, I guess I have to reacquaint myself with my Bible before I would continue on this comfortably. Thanks, though, for the discussion.

Posted by: akiko on December 5, 2008 at 1:21 AM | PERMALINK

BJ: I believe to God it was 6 days, to us, a much longer length of time... IE Einstein's theory of relativity. Fascinating stuff, really.

Posted by: akiko on December 5, 2008 at 1:23 AM | PERMALINK

bj- Yes, I believe that God allows people to make their own choices. And, as to whether God created the world in 6 days, I don't know, or care, really. It could be literal, or maybe he used evolution as the instrument to develop life. Idk. However, I lean more towards the 6 days of creation theory. I mean, why not? I believe in God already, the simplest answer for me is that He said it, and it happened.

Posted by: Eon B on December 5, 2008 at 1:24 AM | PERMALINK

He is the Light of the World, afterall...

Posted by: akiko on December 5, 2008 at 1:25 AM | PERMALINK

you people amaze me.... you are so quick to jump on Rick Warren. When is the last time you questioned something Bill or Hillary Clinton said or did? How about the ACLU? How about anyone who doesn't agree with your liberal left wing theology or idealogy? You pick and choose based on your own preference, and then use whatever media forum to shove it down peoples throats... Yeah, it looks like Rick Warren stuck his foot in his mouth.. SO SUE HIM AND ME! I'll jump on him when you decide to jump on everyone else with the same kind of venom and ridiculous arguments. You people are pathetic.

Posted by: idiotsonline on December 5, 2008 at 1:31 AM | PERMALINK

"the simplest answer for me is that He said it, and it happened" Yes Eon, and that is why 70% of those who believe in the fairytales of most religious texts are fools, especially moslems and christians.

Posted by: bj on December 5, 2008 at 1:31 AM | PERMALINK

I was told i would hurt people, and the meaning of this I continue to struggle with, but I feel that the only alieveation is to love...love what?..maybe through love hurting doesent come up as much. I mean sure aspire to conquer your enemies but maybe see why they also want you to be conqured. Rightousness is not relative it simply stands..I seek it but do I know it..no. we must not look for nor deny God in any man for then it becomes only justification.

Posted by: Wayne on December 5, 2008 at 1:36 AM | PERMALINK

I really love how people who do not really read the Bible like to boil it down into 'catch' phrases, like WWJD. Before they put posts here they should really read it. Then they wouldn't have such negative thoughts by looking at the whole picture:
1) people you really are insignificant in light of the universe
2) in spite of this the God who created you did love you enough to give His Son to die for you, because
3) He gave you the opportunity to choose him or not
4) God does see evil and tells us to DESTROY it (not wink at it), but
5) If we don't then he basically 'gives us up' to our evil passions (consuming focus vs. a balance in life)- whatever part of PMS that may be (Power, Money, Sex)
6) The words of Christ- (Luke 12:51-53, Matthew 10:34-35)- I will give you the intro...."Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth, I did not come to bring peace but a sword....." Let's not fool ourselves, Christ wasn't some limp wristed mama's boy. The only real peace he came to bring was peace between us and God, if we accept it (See #3)

Posted by: Lloyd on December 5, 2008 at 1:39 AM | PERMALINK

BJ- you took that out of context. You're trolling for answers that you can latch onto, which is why I worded my answer the way I did. Like I said, you have no way to disprove God's existance, just like I don't have a way to prove it conclusively. So, what do you believe? That there was a "big bang?" all of the sudden, without an intelligent being, matter just existed?

Posted by: Eon B on December 5, 2008 at 1:41 AM | PERMALINK

There are but two kinds of questions...those we already know the answers to and those with which answers we seek

Posted by: wayne on December 5, 2008 at 1:44 AM | PERMALINK

Something near Alfa-Centauri might be nice. Or just outside that Horsehead Nebula. (it's got great colors) But, then again, Greenland might be good too. Never heard of anyone dissing or attacking Greenland!

Posted by: John B. on December 5, 2008 at 1:47 AM | PERMALINK

Lloyd, did you wink at Bush?
Nuff said!!!!!!!

Posted by: Annjell on December 5, 2008 at 1:48 AM | PERMALINK

Are there Muslims in Greenland?
Greenland's cold, I know. But, the skiing has got to be good, right?

Posted by: John B. on December 5, 2008 at 1:52 AM | PERMALINK

Idiotsonline, after all we have been through the past 8 years based on faith, gut, religion, we have every right to say what we do.

Besides, Warren is supposed to be a man of faith, then how could he want to wish and support death of another man?

Besides, we honestly think the conservatives are whores for money - look at how they have stolen money from the American taxpayers. In fact, everytime a conservative in office, we go through the same crap - remember Enron, Charles Keating....this time it's worse.

Does Triple Canopy ring a bell - the private contractor in Iraq, hiring mercenaries from Peru at $30 USD a day?

How about this new scandal with Blackwater hiring South Asians & Somalis for work in Iraq - locking them up lock prisoners. Some are sleeping 4 to a bed? They are not getting paid, and if they try to leave they are shot at?

You conservatives will sell your souls to the devil for money. Now What?

Posted by: Annjell on December 5, 2008 at 1:58 AM | PERMALINK

VERY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER;
Regardless of your ideals, race or religion, you are all very special. You are all unique, a "one of a kind" individual and very, very special.
................just like everybody else.

Posted by: John B. on December 5, 2008 at 2:00 AM | PERMALINK

And another thing, Idiotsonline,

Can't you come up with something better than Clinton?

At least the women Clinton was linked to were adults. Oooh. And it least they were of the opposite sex. Ooooh.

Hmmm, Larry Craig - if he didn't hide in restrooms he could come out of the closet.

Hmmm, Mark Foley - can't he find men his own age, do he really have to run after little boys?

Hmmm, Mark Haggarty - this megachurch minister, why would he preach against homosexuality to his congregation when he that was his thing?

Need I go on.

You see Idiotsonline - we liberals BE KEEPING IT REAL, nothing fake, phony here.

Posted by: Annjell on December 5, 2008 at 2:06 AM | PERMALINK

I was thinking Iceland might be a good choice. I mean, who would attack Iceland? Probably very few Muslims there. But, then I read they're broke and they've got corrupt politicians who only care about their individual power too. Kinda like here. So......eh,...that one's out. ):

Posted by: John B. on December 5, 2008 at 2:13 AM | PERMALINK

Imagine a world where there were no Muslims, far left liberals, far-right Neo-cons, lawyers, gansta' rappers, no news commentators or anchormen, no atheists, or religios extremists. No corrupt, self-serving, or greedy politicians.
That would leave just hard working folks who took care of their family, neighbors and community. Who would live normal happy lives and try to built a better tomorrow.
They would tirelessly protect freedom and liber.......ah,......who am I kidding?

Posted by: John B. on December 5, 2008 at 2:42 AM | PERMALINK

John B,

who knows, maybe that would be a good thing. Besides, if things weren't so corrupt, there probably would never be gangsta rappers!! You think?

Posted by: Annjell on December 5, 2008 at 2:51 AM | PERMALINK

These comments are out of fear and frustration. I am not justifying them, but noone here has considered the source of this fear.

How can you advocate a "live and let live" policy when the one you aretalking about is trying to kill you? Take all religion out of it for a minute.

Would you be mad at the intolerance of your neighbor if he shot a man attacking his family with a bloody axe? I am not calling for the death of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I think his own peolpe will tear him apart in the streets one day for his stupidity, but noone here wants to address his evil intentions agains us. Have any of you actually listened to his speeches? This guy is banging at our door, wielding a bloody axe.

Posted by: teacher on December 5, 2008 at 3:08 AM | PERMALINK

These comments are out of fear and frustration. I am not justifying them, but noone here has considered the source of this fear.

How can you advocate a "live and let live" policy when the one you aretalking about is trying to kill you? Take all religion out of it for a minute.

Would you be mad at the intolerance of your neighbor if he shot a man attacking his family with a bloody axe? I am not calling for the death of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I think his own peolpe will tear him apart in the streets one day for his stupidity, but noone here wants to address his evil intentions agains us. Have any of you actually listened to his speeches? This guy is banging at our door, wielding a bloody axe.

Posted by: teacher on December 5, 2008 at 3:09 AM | PERMALINK

Fantastic (and intelligent) comment: posted by fostert
"Even? Yes, most of us non-Christians do agree. Unfortunately, the Christians of Germany did not. But I really have a problem with that 'even.' The idea that I am somehow more likely than German Christians to support the extermination of people because I'm not Christian is really offensive. It's stuff like that simple insinuation that makes us non-Christians really upset with Christians. You simply assume that morals can only come from the Bible and that those of us who reject certain portions of the Bible cannot possibly have morals. Let me make this clear: I reject the portions of the Bible that I consider immoral. I'd like to see a Christian do that as well. Let's hear from a Christian who is willing to say that the acts depicted in Joshua were immoral. If you can't reject that, you are accepting the same kind of genocide that Ahmadinejad seems to advocate."

I would add--let's hear from a Christian who is not threatened by the fact that others do not believe in a god. BTW, the most honest and caring individuals I have ever met were not overtly religious.

Posted by: tornado on December 5, 2008 at 3:19 AM | PERMALINK

Why does anyone give this charlatan ANY credit? What's the deal with sucking up to these scumbags? Rick Warren and his ilk are awful and always will be. Get a grip and stop begging these bastards to be our friends -- we don't need them and we don't want them!

Posted by: John Bates on December 5, 2008 at 3:58 AM | PERMALINK

"Warren awarding GWB that PEACE medal." Are you sure that's not a headline from the "Onion"???
Why don't we just leave the leaders of the countries alone and let the Gods battle it out among themselves.

Posted by: trish on December 5, 2008 at 5:50 AM | PERMALINK

Yet again, Rick Warren's own words prove he lives in a cone of ignorance.

Posted by: Randy on December 5, 2008 at 6:34 AM | PERMALINK

The belief in religion is not a problem, it is the sharing of it and the way it is shared it that is, especially when it is down the barrel of a gun. Believe what you want to, but this belief that your religion is the only correct one is not just ignorant, it is dangerous.

Posted by: mapsguy1955 on December 5, 2008 at 8:04 AM | PERMALINK

... I'm sure I'm coming across as an asshole conservative...

Nah, just a general asshole. I'm not sure what your comments have to do with conservatism, other than being often wrong and never in doubt.

Posted by: anon on December 5, 2008 at 8:17 AM | PERMALINK

"Shoot, and I kinda liked Rick. I hope he does not mature into a Falwell...."

Posted by: Dave in Austin

Of course not; he'll mature into a totally different right-wing evangelical theocrat, more in line with current cultural trends, styles and media technology.

But, in the end, he'll be a right-winger under the polish.

Posted by: Barry on December 5, 2008 at 9:47 AM | PERMALINK

Then I suppose that the Roman governor had every right and "Gods" approval to crucify a certain Jewish heretic?

Posted by: david richmond

Damn that Roman Governor! If he hadn't of done that Jesus would be here today! He could get us out of this mess! And with the Internet, He'd be more popular than Jesus!

Posted by: Mooser on December 5, 2008 at 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

Warmonger Warren is an embarrassment to the cause of Christ.

John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com

Recovering Republican

JLof@aol.com

Posted by: John Lofton, Recovering Republican on December 5, 2008 at 12:38 PM | PERMALINK
I believe to God it was 6 days, to us, a much longer length of time... IE Einstein's theory of relativity.

So God is (or was, during the period of creation), relative to us, moving very close to (but less than) the speed of light?

Because that's the only way that relativity would produce that result.

(And, even then, it still wouldn't explain the inconsistent order of creation in the two different creation stories in Genesis.)


Posted by: cmdicely on December 5, 2008 at 1:56 PM | PERMALINK

if this were a conversation between an Iranian TV host and an ayatollah in which they discussed scriptural justifications for "taking out" high ranking members of the U.S. government

Hey idiot ... they do exactly what you decribe above. What do you think a Jihad is? That is how the extremists justify their actions. There is no truce in this war ... I only wish you liberal morons would get off your high horses and get it. But I fear it's hopeless

Posted by: Hank on December 5, 2008 at 2:29 PM | PERMALINK

There is no truce in this war

There is no war. We are not at war with Iran, they are not at war with us, they are not at war with their neighbors. They have never invaded another country, they reached out to us in 2002 to normalize relations and Bush responded by calling them "evil."

They have no way to threaten us other than turning off flow the oil that belongs to them in the first place and which they'd never do because they need the revenue.

Stop being afraid of everyone who isn't white, ignorant, and a terrible speller like yourself.

You should visit Iran. The people there are quite nice on the whole. They even have malls and skiing, believe it or not.

Posted by: duh on December 5, 2008 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK

"Shoot, and I kinda liked Rick. I hope he does not mature into a Falwell...."

I don't think 'mature' is the correct choice of word here.

Posted by: kb on December 6, 2008 at 2:01 AM | PERMALINK

Hey duh ... you really are stupid.

Pay attention now: It is a war about ideology (not geography)- just ask the people in Mumbai if you don't believe me - I suppose you've been there too. Oh, and guess what? I've been to both places, you arrogant asshole. BTW, if you like Iran so much I strongly encourage you to MOVE THERE! It would be good for this country, since it's your kind of thinking that stops us from gathering intelligence to prevent future attacks. But I guess you don't think that is a possibility - since there is no war and everything. I guess you forgot about 911? Remember planes flying into buildings killing people? Regardless, I'm sure your wife and or boyfriend will love it in Iran too.

Seriously, stop with your ignorant nonsense and understand this ideology we are at war with is rooted in the belief that it MUST stop our way of life. Do you get that?

Oh yeah, and terrible speller, wow does that hurt - ocuh!

Allahuakbar

Posted by: hank on December 6, 2008 at 10:00 AM | PERMALINK

It's incredible how much the fundamentalists christians masturbate to the thought of total war against fundamentalist islam.
It's like a narcissistic moron jerking off while looking in the mirror.

Posted by: HairlessMonkeyDK on December 7, 2008 at 5:41 AM | PERMALINK




 

 

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