And thousands of out-of-work autoworkers in Detroit and elsewhere will have this numbskull from Kentucky to blame.

Let's just call him Scrooge. Many of his constituents will.

This will end the Republican Party in the Great Lakes states. I'm only sorry so many will have to suffer to put a stake in the heart of the Vampire Party.

McConnell's local car company is Toyota.

There may be excess capacity in the industry, but he'll crawl over broken glass to make sure it's not in Kentucky.

Maybe it would be best to force the Republicans to put their money where their mouths are, by tabling the bill in the Senate and see if they actually would filibuster it.

Let the Republican Senators actually spend some political capital for a change, instead of Democrats looking like cowards, once again.

I figure since people believe it's actually going down to defeat, it might as well based on a fight.

Okay - it's been determined these Republicans are the dumbest people when it comes to the economy. They are truly "Hoover-esque".

Are they even aware that $9BILLION+ is spent every month in JUST Iraq???

Are they aware of ALL the $$$ spent on Financial instiutions that seem to STILL refuse to loan money that affected the car companies abilities to borrow money?

And they never ask for concessions for the bailout money. This is soooo political and just makes NO economic sense.

With this in mind, what can be done when Obama is President? Can the Auto makers hold off until Jan 21st? I'm sure the Democratic run government might try to do the right thing.

What Mathew said. "Republican opposition stands in contrast to what have been significant concessions by Democrats...." Why does this all sound so drearily familiar?

I worry about the long term effects of this decision. And btw, wow--thanks for the info Elsie--had no idea we are spending 9 billion monthly on Iraq alone!

I am no fan of the Big 3 and if there was a way to torch their management (GM in particular) without losing the jobs then I would be favor of it. $15 Bill is a small price to keep these guys afloat till they can stand on their own.

Harry Reid better find where he misplaced his testicles and fight this thing.

From the looks of things, the Repubs don't want blue collar votes anymore either.

mandate that a portion of payments automakers make to labor unions consist of company stock.

Could someone explain to me why a Republican would be pushing for this? I know there must be a bad faith reason for it, but letting the union have voting rights at stockholder meetings doesn't sound like a bad things at all. And given how poor the companies are doing, the amount of stock they'd have to give to the union to equate to "dollars owed" could be large enough to give the union significant control over the board.

This sounds like a good idea to me, so I'm sure there's something wrong with it.

Mathew:

I couldn't agree more. Why o why won't they ever actually TRY to force the filibuster. Don't they know what the effect of these fat old rich fu--s on tv reading the yellow pages to kill jobs?

GM is not going to file for bankruptcy anytime soon. Has the Congress conducted its own audits of the car companies, to make sure they're not just joining the bandwagon asking for handouts? I didn't think so.

This is a bad bill. Hopefully, it won't pass, but I still think it's likely Republicans will bow to political pressure, the way Democrats caved in on drilling. But if it doesn't, the new Congress and new president will hopefully take a long and reasoned look at the situation before acting. That would be refreshing after all the panicky bailouts we've become accustomed to, throwing taxpayer money away with wild abandon, especially at a time when we need to direct it where it will grow the economy, not restore the phony, paper fortunes of Wall Street and industrial tycoons.

Corker's ammendment sounds like a poison pill. I wonder if there are any Dems who would support it, especially the equity swap.

To truly understand the hypocrisy of Republicans, they pushed their capital gains tax cuts by arguing that retirees rely on their stock holdings to get by. But it is precisely these people who buy bonds and preferred stocks, especially in Blue Chip companies and banks. To replace their 4-5% interest-bearing bonds with near worthless stock, especially with a condition that the companies file for Chapter 11 if they don't meet certain requirements, is beyond immoral. Remember, too, that while stock brokers give all kinds of free advise when people want to buy stocks (or bonds), it is precisely these retirees who will be the last to be advised to sell.

This sounds like a good idea to me, so I'm sure there's something wrong with it.

They expect the stock to be worthless in a year, and to destroy the union in the process of making sure it is so -- and Blue Dogs will hand them the shovel to dig the union's grave.

They may be evil, but they're not exactly devious

I don't like the idea of a bailout but I like the idea of a depression even less.

I think GM and Chrysler would have an impossible time getting debtor in possession financing in a BK which means then liquidation.

The effect of this rolling through the economy could be millions of jobs lost. As supplier shut down it would make harder for other automakers and repair shops to get parts...

The potential for economic disaster is just huge.

The potential for economic disaster is just huge.

But it's a small price to pay for a world purged of the evils of trade unionism. The UAW member is a kulak.

The Revolution was never advertised as cheap, easy, or without casualties.

It's the price we pay today to live in Paradise tomorrow.

All power to the soviets of preachers and executives!

"And thousands of out-of-work autoworkers in Detroit and elsewhere will have this numbskull from Kentucky to blame."

Since when is corporate welfare and the public subsidization of failing companies the solution to unemployment? It seems to me that it would be both more efficient and truer to New Deal-style liberalism to take the money earmarked for an auto bailout and use it instead to provide expanded unemployment insurance and subsidized college and vocational training for laid off auto workers. Instead of propping up failing mega-corporations, why not provide aid directly to workers while providing them with the skills necessary to contribute to a productive industry? I've yet to see a good reason why this isn't preferable to the congressional plan to reward failure.

The likelihood of GM's bankruptcy has gone up considerably.

If GM goes, it'll take Chrysler with it, because Chrysler can't survive on its own any more---and Chrysler's "puppetmasters" have too many of their eggs in GMAC. Besides, no one else on the planet will be stupid enough to buy Chrysler outright, although someone'll pick up their Dodge division at a nice, fire-sale price.

Just out of curiosity---has anyone looked at McConnell's stock porfolios---with specificity towards bundled investments in Ford? He seems dead-set on crushing that company's domestic competition....

As the Republiscums flail about at random trying to "redefine their brand" and "lead themselves out of the wilderness", we will see plenty of moves like these. They don't care who gets hurt, or that we spend almost as much in a MONTH in a Iraq as the entire auto bailout, they're just trying to see what will make people vote for them.

As much as I dislike the GOP, I actually think the debt-equity swap is a good idea. The bondholders risk losing everything, so equity is at least something. And the stockholders deserve to lose everything for holding equity in such lousy companies.

I don't like the union bashing, but I think Nonynony's comment above is correctl And asking investors to make painful sacrifices before contributing taxpayer money to a private enterprise seems reasonable to me.

I seem to remember a Corvette plantin Kentucky??

Reality check.

Bob Lutz, the man who said "global warming is a crock of shit," and who is in charge of global platform development for GM, recently stated that the 15 billion was just a bridge to get to January and the new administration.

Keeping Detroit going is going to cost hundreds of billions of dollars from taxpayers, for the simple reasons that their products are out of touch with consumer demands, and that it is going to take years to turn this around.

GM and Chrysler are done for, Ford may stand a chance. C11 will allow new ventures to form around the existing plants, downscaled.

Are you aware that last year, GM made enough cars to stretch around the globe at the Equator, and then some, if you placed them bumper to bumper?
No company is able to remain focused, with as many disparate brands and departments as GM, and as out of touch with consumers as are GM. The only reason they've been able to offload cars is because of their crazy incentives, which ensured that every single one was sold at a loss.

GM is not a viable entity any longer. They have been losing money for ten years, while fighting better mileage standards, hybrids and other alternative drive trains. And it's still the same crew running the place.

To end with Lutz again. When he was interviewed by Newsweek, on the topic of the vaporware Volt car, he sat next to a 16-valve engine that he has in his office.

That company has yet to discover the 21st Century.

why not provide aid directly to workers while providing them with the skills necessary to contribute to a productive industry?

And which industry would that be? Banking? Insurance? Import/Export? Also if the Big Three go out of business, why would Toyota et.al. keep factories in the US?

Without McConnell's support, the measure, as passed by the House, won't go anywhere because the Democrats will cave at the first threat of a Republican filibuster.

@ Danp:

Because America will still need cars, just not the historic American brands. Companies don't exit markets when their competition goes belly-up, they expand market share, usually.

What we're seeing is a prelude to the republican strategy in the years ahead. Kill everything by threatening a filibuster in the senate. It's the tactic that has served them well for the last two years as they're effectively blocked every significant bill passed by the democratic house simply by THREATENING a filibuster. Now is the time to call their bluff. Starting with this piece of legislation make them follow through on their threat. No recess for the holidays--keep the senate in session until the bill is brought up for a vote and make sure the nightly news covers this bunch of clowns. Make sure everyone in America knows that forty nine republicans that supported 700 billion for white collar Wall Street are now blocking 15 billion to save jobs on blue collar Main Street. Better now than later because if the democrats let them win this one, we can look forward to the same crap on any economic recovery plan, any health care plan, any energy plan, or any other piece of legislation aimed at getting the economy moving. Make them actually filibuster and now is the perfect time to get started. The majority of Americans support this bill and if it goes down the auto industry is probably going down and that'll take a couple of million jobs with it. This is not a time for chest thumping political stunts. Call their bluff.

I'm sorry, but I think that this business of saying Harry Reid is a coward, lacks testicles etc. because he doesn't make the GOP actually hold the floor and talk all night while filibustering is, like, stupid. Will it change one vote? No. Everybody knows that. Will America rise up as one because they have become so enraged watching Trent Lott read the phone book on CSPAN2 at 3AM. I don't think so. This isn't some Frank Capra movie. Senators don't change their votes because they look bad on TV. The GOP is trying to wreck the UAW while they still have the chance. They are the ones at fault if the auto companies go bust. All this talk about Harry Reid's equipment is off-message and somehow suggests that the Democratic Party is responsible for what the GOP does.

This reminds me of the time in the 90s when congressional republicans shut down the government except the repercussions from this little tantrum will be much much worse for the country. Today, they are obviously out of touch and they must be just plain stupid to want the demise of the U.S. auto industry and the next great depression in their column.

It causes me a lot of pain to say this because I'm a very pro-working-stiff guy and because of all the suffering that's going to ensue, but I've decided that I can't support this bailout and I'll be glad if it dies. Chrysler is simply non-viable and should not have been included in the bill at all, and GM doesn't need an enabler- it needs truly radical restructuring in order to have any chance of emerging as a company that's viable in the long haul. Keeping them afloat for a while and hoping something will turn up- it's a couple of decades too late for that.

It's entirely possible the fall of the Big 3 automakers could lead to a huge decline for European automakers such as BMW, etc., because they share some of the same suppliers.

From Bloomberg yesterday:

“You can’t underestimate what would happen when a large player collapses,� Norbert Reithofer, chief executive officer of BMW, said of the possible failure of Detroit auto companies. “That would impact the supplier structure and therefore the entire industry.�

Add to that BMW sales down by 25% and stock by 47%

Meanwhile, in South Carolina, at least 500 (and possibly more) BMW contract workers in a single plant may be laid off in December. Of course that hasn't deterred Demented DeMint and Little Lord Lindsey from acting against the best interests of their fellow citizens.

putt

Companies don't exit markets when their competition goes belly-up, they expand market share, usually.

They wouldn't "exit the market". They would off-shore the production.

Republicans will do anything to screw workers, especially workers with successful unions.

The bailout to Wall Street was a huge transfer of wealth from the taxpayer to the investor class, with no strings attached. In contrast, the $ for the auto industry is just a loan.

Usually taking stock in a company means that you are invested in the success of the company. If the union takes stock, I guess they figure the union will voluntarily castrate itself to see the company succeed. If it fails,then the paper will be worthless and the union will be broke and cease to exist.

I'm not sure why they are drawing the line with the auto companies. They didn't flinch when the airlines (with their unions) needed a bailout.

All in all, I don't know how anyone can look at this posturing an conclude that Republicans care about the average working man.

"Because America will still need cars, just not the historic American brands. Companies don't exit markets when their competition goes belly-up, they expand market share, usually."

But in the epoch of "free" trade, what's the incentive to keep or expand production facilities in a country that no longer has a native industry with which to complete?

And by the way, has anyone considered the impact of peak oil on international trade?

Mike

Ronald Reagan didn't give a damn about the safety of Anerican travelers when he busted the air traffic controllers union either.

Corker's intention is to bust the unions -- nothing more, nothing less.

What really pisses me off about this whole mess is that the GOP seemed to have few problems forking over some $700 BILLION to a bunch of bankers, without so much as an iota of actual oversight, and without any comments about how much the executives make despite their utter failure.

And they had no issues handing Bush blank check after blank check to piss away in Iraq.

Yet they go fucking apopleptic about less than two months in Iraq, railing against union wages that make up less than 10% of the cost of each car, and saying nothing about how to take care of the hundreds of thousands of people who will be unemployed if they do nothing.

In other words: Giving hundreds of billions to right white guys and defense contractors without any oversight at all? Fine.

Giving $15 billion to keep regular folks employed and allowing the automakers some time to come up with a truly forward-thinking plan? Not fine.

Don't get me wrong: I have no pity for the auto makers. What I do have pity for, however, are all the people who are employed by them and their suppliers who did absolutely nothing wrong.

"This isn't some Frank Capra movie. Senators don't change their votes because they look bad on TV."

Reid has two options.

1. Do nothing and let the GOP threat of a filibuster kill the bailout.

2. Force the GOP to actually filibuster the bill and hope there's some negative reaction to that which will make them stop.

Option 1 accomplishes nothing. Option 2 might accomplish something. If Reid chooses an easy nothing over a possible something, it's fair to question what happened to his backbone.

MIke

1) Right now, we're just trying to keep exceptionally bad shit from happening between now and late January, when we'll have a new President, and a much more Democratic Congress.

2) $14 billion is a small price to pay as insurance against that. Even if you think GM's trying to bullshit us all.

3) Sure, the Dems caved on a bunch of stuff in order to get Bush's approval. See #1. The REAL bailout - if this $14B package goes through - will be in January or February. We'll be able to write whatever conditions we want then, unless McConnell can hold his entire caucus together on this.

4) The key thing here - both to maximize the chances of passing this band-aid, and to make sure everyone knows who's to blame if it doesn't - is to maximize the glare of publicity on the GOP's efforts to block this bill. If the GOP chooses to block cloture, Reid needs to keep the bill on the floor and force the GOP to actively filibuster.

The message to Mitch McConnell needs to be: if you block this bill and GM goes under before Jan. 20, your party loses the Midwest for the next decade or two. No Michigan, no Ohio, no Wisconsin, hell, probably no Indiana, even, for the GOP. Kiss 'em goodbye.

That's the sort of language he understands, and it's important to make sure he hears it good and hard. Forcing them to back up a procedural filibuster with an actual filibuster, requiring them to talk for days (and nights) in order to prevent the bill from coming to a vote, would convey that message.

McConnel's playing with fire here. The idea of bailing out the Big 3 is about as popular a notion as replacing your furnace in mid-January. McConnel is shamelessly pandering to that frustration for political gain (and the gain of Japanese automakers over Detroit.)

What he fails to recognize is that there is a far less popular idea than a mid winter furnace replacement - a mid winter with no furnace at all.

Multiple points, Steve, et al.

1. Especially as normal holiday plant shutdowns approach anyway, if GM can't stay alive until early January, it DESERVES to go kaput.

2. The Senate bill allowed the Big Three to escape California CO2 restrictions. If that's part of the bailout price, GM DESERVES to go bankrupt.

3. The new Senate, in early January, won't have enough GOPers to filibuster.

4. Obama can put in his own person as "auto czar" then.

===

Mike on Peak Oil and trade --

The push for "inland ports" around the country, along with big shipping warehouses, etc., will take a swift kick in the gonads with Peak Oil. I've blogged about that before:
http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com

I don't think it is a matter of wanting to bust the unions as much as it is a function of the I-65 car manufacturers in the South, most of which are not the Big Three. The Senators who oppose the bill are mostly from the South and I am willing to bet that they have huge indirectly vested interests in seeing that these plants prosper. The Big Three have had their day and are losing money so fast that the corporate execs can't give very much to those Republican Senators who are outside of their states. If left to their own devices, the Big Three will have to go bankrupt and lose whatever attraction they had to US buyers while the Japanese and German car makers don't lose as much. If there are skilled workers available willing to move out of MI to KY, TN, AL, ect., then the price of labor goes down and the states that these Senators represent prosper. It is a win-win situation for the Senators in the short run until the depression reaches the South and no one buys cars. No mystery here and there is no evil conspiracy, just business as usual with the emphasis on business.

I have to say that I don't own an American car mostly because I can't find one that suits my needs or that will hold up in winter weather. The products put out by Detroit are inferior to those built in the South and have been for years. The Big Three are not as flexible as the Japanese firms nor are they as innovative or forward looking. While I know that no Detroit laborer gets $73 an hour, apparently that is the cost per hour per worker for the manufacturing of these vehicles. That is a function of management, not labor, and it is they who should suffer. But that is not what will happen. There are reasons why the Big Three are no longer that Big. The Republicans are just looking to the (very) near future and taking advantage of their positions to remain in office and flush with business cash. No other thought has been required for them to act the way they do.

So the Republicans are venal and short sighted, what else is new? The Democrats will not take responsibility, so what else is new? And the present administration is demonstrating incompetence. What else is new? Nothing as far as I can see, just the same old responses to every problem.

Perhaps GM could "suggest" that one of the first plants to go down if the financing didn't come through would be the Bowling Green, KY Corvette plant.

It is my feeling that these companies absolutely engineered their own failure with their mismanagement over the years. But the consequences of a shutdown across multiple states and suppliers don't seem to be fully appreciated.

I think most people don't understand what's going on here. All car sales are in the tank... big time.

It's not just 'Americans made shitty cars', the entire business has tanked due to the credit freeze.

Sales for the local Nissan dealer were off 80% last month... the Toyota dealer can't find room to put another car on the lot... he's parking them over in an industrial area.

Toyota, Nissan and Honda aren't talking bankruptcy yet, but given another 6 months without significant recovery and the story might take a different turn.

Domestic manufacturers (especially GM) carry a huge overhead that requires an equally huge sales volume to stay afloat. That sales volume has ground to a halt in a manner not seen since 1929.

Will chopping divisions, streamlining, (etc) help? In the long run, you betcha.

However, in the short term letting GM or Ford go under is just another nail in the economic coffin... a real big nail at that.

Americans may talk big about 'letting them go', but a few months down the road the results will be disasterous.

Reid should step up and say to the GOP 'go ahead, filibuster and we will hang the results of this action around your neck'.

It's simple: the Republicans would rather have no domestic auto industry at all than an auto industry with a strong union. And that's exactly the message the Democrats should be pushing.

Yes, all politics is local, and the Dishonorable Senator McConnell is a whore for the foreign auto makers in his home state of Kentucky. He is as UNAMERICAN as they come - protecting foreign interests at the life and death expense of our national interests! -Kevo

Doesn't McConnell realize GM has a plant in Spring Hill, TN?

Wow, two to three million Americans out of work because on one Repub Senator!

The Repubs are going to get slaughtered in 2010.

Note to Repubs: "Save the uber rich, f&*k everyone else!" may not fit well on a bumper sticker, may I suggest "F&*k the Middle Class!" along with a cute little elephant.

I suggest the first plants any US car company shuts down be in states with senators who vote against the bill. Then I suggest they shift as much of their parts supply as they can from those states.

They build Corvettes in KY. Not selling many of them in this economy. Shut it down. They make F-150s in TX. Ford stopped making them this spring. Shut it down for good. Alabama? They've given more in tax breaks to all those Japanese and German car companies than the Big Three are asking from the feds alone. I don't even want a car built with any parts from Shelby's state.

What really pisses me off about this whole mess is that the GOP seemed to have few problems forking over some $700 BILLION to a bunch of bankers,[...] -- Mark D, @14:50

The more I look at the Big3 bailout hullabaloo, the more I think it's *because* of that first bailout to the Wall Street, that there's such resistance now. That first bailout was such a rushed job, with no oversight written into it at all, that now everyone's looking twice as carefully at the Big3 one.

The typical case of "marry in haste, repent at leisure", except that the "marriage" was to the banks and the brunt of "repentance" is being borne by Detroit.

"And which industry would that be? Banking? Insurance? Import/Export?"

In the short term, I don't know what that would be, because the jobs might not be there in any sector. That's why my comment above also called for expanded unemployment benefits. I'd much rather see the government give financial aid to individual workers through an economic slump than undermine the market feedback mechanisms that keep all American industry competitive-- which is exactly where I fear this emerging bailout mentality is headed.

It's pretty clear this is the Republicons taking advantage of Chimpy's lame duckitude to bash on one of their favorite groups to blame: workers and unions. The unions need to mobilize and step up to counter the attack, and to recognize that this will only be the first of many to come from the newly gelded wingnut minority party.

That, or just fuck it and pass the "newkular option" the Goopers always wanted.

JRD - I understand your argument, and in the mid '90's, I might have agreed with you. But right now, you have tremendous debt at all levels or our economy, a smaller percentage of the population than ever that actually has income from work, and a huge percentage of that comes from supporting industries (?) like banking, Exim, etc. If you let these few remaining productive industries fail before replacing them, you will have a cascading effect.

Buford -- very true. Germany's top four automakers are screaming for their own bailout and predict without help, they'll dump 100,000 jobs.

---

Markg8 -- ??? The F-150's still being made as we speak.

... And faced with strong resistance in his caucus, he [McConnell] said that the bill "isn't nearly tough enough" and that he could not ask taxpayers to "subsidize failure."

Yet he supported McCain/Palin. I guess he's forgotten that already.

Perhaps the best outcome would be for Sen. Reid to bring the Bill to the floor of the Senate and let the Republicans filibuster it. If GM is to go down (and 10s of thousands of jobs with it), let the Republican Party be seen as the one doing the torpedoing.
McConnell is simply playing to his base: some angry voters in Kentucky who are still employed (for now) and foreign car manufacturers with non-union plants. Since all the items that McConnell and his ilk want added or taken out of the bill are those that benefit auto workers, union member retirees, and possibly even the country in general through improved automotive products, Sen. Reid should also be playing to his base - everyone who will suffer if the auto makers collapse.
Hint: it's not just the union members.

The majority of Americans support this bill and if it goes down the auto industry is probably going down and that'll take a couple of million jobs with it.

Actually, all the polling I've seen on the subject shows a clear majority (55% to 60%) of Americans are opposed to bailing out the Big 3.

Stop the goddamned "gentleman's agreement" about filibusters!!! Tell these ignormant motherfucking scumballs to "bring it on." Get the cots into the Senate chamber and make them do this in public, on TV!!

Let the public know who's the ones who are still fucking things up.

On the bright side, if GM goes bankrupt they'll have to liquidate inventory. You could get a really great price on a mini-van real soon!

Two points: Make the damned Republicans filibuster...keep the Senate in session through Christmas and make the Republicans keep the floor. Make them look like the fools they are.

Second: Who hauls parts to the factories in Kentucy and Alabama? Are the Teamsters involved? Can't they strike and shut down McConnel's beloved industries until he caves? Unions have to start acting NATIONALLY, together, just as they do in Europe. Fight together, or die individually. Their choice.

If the big three go few will have enough money to buy cars from other manufacturers. All the money congress threw at the financial industry whose leadership was just as pathetic, whose employees make 5-10 times the amount of union auto workers, who produced no plans for future operations or consequences for bad actors, with no accountability for how funds received were to be used. Whether it's cars or trains or windmills or solar panels it is still manufacturing...making something right here in the USA. We sould not be giving money to anyone of these entities without regulating how it will be used. The entire country loses whether auto makers declare bankruptcy or get bailed out. Congress must find away to redirect manufacturing entities rather than allow them to destroy our economy. Hell, recycle their stock and save as much as possible then make cars anew. If they take tax payer money they can forget about profiteering for a long time to come.

McConnell is just a spokesman for the "People's Obstructionist Party" (POP)formerly the republicans...whose only purpose is to obstruct any and all legislation initiated by democrats. They are there to obstruct anything that might be good for the country if it does not protect the wealthy and their holdings. Name anything they have done for the good of the nation yet the dems have given Bush everything he has asked for.

They should only be referred to as the obstructionist party--no helpful ideas of their own for the mess they created. Bail out and regulation should be synonymous as none of those asking for money know what the hell they're doing.

Thanks again POP for always blocking the way forward.