Two thoughts:

1) Size 12s would have got the job done.

2) A flying shoes screen saver would go viral right now...

Even now, he probably still thinks it was just the action of an isolated malcontent...

Make that three thougths:

3) Sure wish I had links to all those comments I wrote years back about Iraqis wanting to beat Bush with their shoes...

So much for Sock and Awe.

I think hitting someone with your shoe is considered an insult in any culture, not just Arab.

I have no doubt that Bush will continue his delusional thought that the Iraqi citizens welcome our occupation even after this incident. Too bad the shoes missed!

Muntather Zaidi rocks!

Interesting that none of his Secret Service men seemed willing to take a loafer for him.

Just think if all of us who wished to do that would be given the opportunity. The result would be biblical or koranical. Damn his reflexes!

It would be impossible, of course, to score with a mouth shot. That location is permanently occupied.

Bush -- and we -- deserve the shoes.

However, I can't help but wonder if this fellow is quite as exercised about the havoc the Iraqis themselves are responsible for, as opposed to the havoc that we're responsible for.

So that's what they meant by "Greeted as liberators."

Muntathar al Zaidi was just showing his appreciation for all Bush has done for Iraq. He was offering his contribution to the Rove and Hughes' legacy efforts. I think "This is a goodbye kiss, you dog,"; "Killer of Iraqis, killer of children." are primo talking points.

The one Secret Service guy who ran to the front seemed to step the side. I've seen enough movies to know they're supposed to dive over him and tackle him, protecting him with their bodies.

Whoever was in charge of the presnit's security (probably a burrowing loyal Bushie) should be fired. Let's see if Shrub has a press conference and tells him he's doing a heckuva job.

Hey! can't call our president a dog! Only we can call him a dog!

I think the point here isn't how dangerous or not dangerous it is to throw a shoe. I mean, it's perfectly clear the shoe thrower wasn't trying to maim the Bush. Hell, Bush himself waved off the secret service.

I just think it's amazing that they couldn't do a freaking photo-op with the press, without an outraged Iraqi absolutely losing it, becoming completely unprofessional and lashing out with this kind of gesture. (Because that's what this was--a gesture, like spitting in someone's face).

I think Bush is going to be a figure who's utterly reviled in the mideast (and a lot of other places) for the next 50 years. If this nation has a lick of sense, we will work very hard to make it clear to everyone in the world we hate him damn near as much as they do.

I think it's actually a very good sign that polls indicate something like 65 or 70% of Americans now claim they didn't vote for Bush in 2004. The more people in the world who think the average American would spit at Bush if we met him, the better it is for our country.

If the take-away from this war is "Bush invaded Iraq" and not "America invaded Iraq," that is VERY good for America. So, when stuff like this happens, I think our response as a nation should be "duh, you shouldn't throw shoes, but I really do understand the shoe-thrower's feelings. Bush sucks. The Iraqi dude should just have expressed that with less throwing."

That said, I also wondered whether Bush would have had any sense at all of how angry a lot of Iraqis are had this not happened.
Triple score: Bush + sense + Iraqis in the same sentence.

I wonder if the Secret Service would consider mailing a picture of a flying shoe to Bush as a threat?

Or perhaps we could just stack a bunch of shoes in a prominent place in Washington? Call it the Muntathar al Zaidi memorial. Anyone who wanted to could add a shoe.

What would it take to write a flying shoe screen saver?

Pretty impressed by Bush's reflexes. Maybe he's been practicing.

I only get a slight, schadenfreude-esque level of satisfaction from seeing this. By and large, however, I am not interested in seeing people being mean to him or angry with him; I want to see him held accountable.

OK. Someone who programs Flash needs to put together a game with a ducking Bush and shoes thrown at him. An experienced Flash programmer could probably put that together in a few hours.

Just a thought.

Rick B, how about visitors to the GWB library leaving their shoes in front of the Iraq war exhibit. I'm game.

Although we use the term "dog," as an insult.

This is the lowest of insults in the islamic world.

In fact, they consider dogs to be nasty, filthy, dirty.

Much like the western world consider them pets, and let them inside their homes.

Most islamic countries don't because of their views of dogs.

Wonder what happened to Muntathar al Zaidi in the aftermath... Is he now in Abu Ghraib, being 'liberated'?

BTW, there are Iraqis in Egypt wanting to commemorate Saddam Hussein, an even greater insult.

see.www.worldfocus.org

Sorry Hilzoy, this was not an assassination attempt. I'm proud of that guy and regret that he missed his target.

..And this is probably the only "justice" this SOB ever gets.

No trial, no punishment --- this is it. The lame-ass media won't investigate the true deep dirt on this horrible, incompetent and evil adminstration so the flying shoe is it. Our round heeled congress couldnt be bothered either...

We should make a gigantic gold shoe to leave in front of his freaking house in Dallas once he leaves office. I wish that we could put stink in it..

Dog -- that is too good for him. I love dogs

No Iraqi reporter ever threw shoes at Saddam Hussein in a news conference. Iraqis liked him too much for that.

The young man knows his history. Throwing shoes is an expression in dimensions we don’t understand just as the preemptive actions Bush took in the war.

America was in this country far too long trying to shape it in Bush’s image. Our military took out Saddam Hussein in a short time, and then America should have left the freedom issue to the International community. This was probably expected. But, Bush and Cheney got greedy.

This young man is like many typical of what is not reported and told to the world. The whole scenario of the war in Iraq will take an historical perspective contrasting the time Khrushchev took his shoe and pounded on a podium in a United Nations meeting ages ago, raging that they will bury us.

Since then, American and Soviet relations have always been confrontational. This time the shoe is a missile slung across the room, an omen far worse than just pounding on the podium. Bush or the mainstream Media would analyze this as a Saturday night live funny stunt. Americans now understand how stupid the war is because Bush left the whole world in a deep recession and we better feel lucky that is all they are slinging at us.

"BTW, there are Iraqis in Egypt wanting to commemorate Saddam Hussein, an even greater insult." -- annjell

In fact, according to Cole via Sullivan, the guy who thew the shoe is from "Baghdadiya, based in Cairo, Egypt, [which] supports the Sunni Arab insurgents fighting the US and the al-Maliki government."

This is what I was trying to say above. I doubt this guy thinks Bush or America are wrong for quite the reasons we might think he should. To celebrate Saddam Hussein is to express support for an Iraq in which the Sunni minority horrifically oppressed the Shia majority as well as the Kurds. Perhaps Iraq will entirely descend once again to this kind of "politics" when we withdraw. Withdraw we must; but let's hope not.

"No Iraqi reporter ever threw shoes at Saddam Hussein in a news conference. Iraqis liked him too much for that."

This is some very dark sarcasm, I hope. The reason no Iraqi reporter ever threw shoes at Saddam Hussein is that he would have been tortured to death, and his entire family massacred on top of that.

Larry Birnbaum,

Thanks for your comments. And that we agree with what is happening.

It's sad, information like this never make it to the mainstream medial.

And the worst part of it is, we did not sell war bonds to pay for this war - at the same time we brought in illegal immigrants to take the jobs that weren't shipped overseas.

We have a long road ahead of us. This is not the end of it. There's no way. People don't understand the very unique differences we have among the islamic world.

This is some very dark sarcasm, I hope. The reason no Iraqi reporter ever threw shoes at Saddam Hussein is that he would have been tortured to death, and his entire family massacred on top of that.

True, but look at what happened to people in this country who crossed Bush during the last 8 years.

He's no Saddam Hussein, but his criminal behavior did not bring honor and dignity to the office.

Larry Birnbaum,

I have this movie called, "Turtles Can Fly," about the Kurds in Iraq.

I boohooed like a baby. There were kids, left without parents due to Saddam Hussein. They pretty much lived in tents, because their villages were destroyed.

How the kids survived was combing mine fields, and then selling it to the U.N. or the U.S.

One of the boys in the movie had no arms due to a landmind explosion. His 12 year old sister was raped by some of Hussein's men, she tried to set herself on fire to die.

One of the men who raped and killed the siblings parents left behind a baby boy that was blind. The girl hated the little boy because of what his parents did.

The village elders had a lot of authority.

But, anyway, how they have kids combing landmines is just wrong. Yet, they do this in the African continent as well.

The sad thing is, Bush is so bubble-wrapped and delusional, he probably thinks the guy was offering him his shoes as a thank-you gift...

...I also wondered whether Bush would have had any sense at all of how angry a lot of Iraqis are...

I have no doubt he knows. He may be incurious and ideologically blinkered, but he's a successful politician, so he's not stupid, and he is probably among the ten best informed individuals on the planet.

But I doubt he particularly cares. And insofar as he does, I'm willing to bet he pities people without what he imagines to be his breadth of vision.

He's young and healthy, though. He has plenty long enough for the long-term reality of the situation -- and the world's reaction to it -- to sink in. And it will take a long time. But as history unfolds, I'll bet the same street-smarts that have served him so well so far ultimately will bring home to him what a colossal crime he has perpetrated.

Maybe he'll end up drinking himself to death...

God, this place has tanked since Drum left. "All I could think of when that mean man threw shoes at our President was what kind of shoes they were. By the way, not nice to throw shoes."

larry birnstien:
"...To celebrate Saddam Hussein is to express support for an Iraq in which the Sunni minority horrifically oppressed the Shia majority as well as the Kurds."
As opposed to today's Iraq where some 4 million Iraqis are still displaced and hundreds of thousands have been maimed, killed, terrorized. So much better today.

larry again:
"...The reason no Iraqi reporter ever threw shoes at Saddam Hussein is that he would have been tortured to death..."
Have you happened to notice during these past 6 years that Bush tortures, too?

larry birnheimer apparently thinks that the US under Bush has been able to retain its moral superiority vis a vis the two-bit dictators of the world. Nice boy; doesn't get out much.

Larry Birnbaum,

There's a lot of people that think Al-Quaida started with Osama Bin Laden.

I have to explain to them all the time. It started in Egypt prison - the Muslim Brotherhood,
Said Qtuyb who lived in Texas and hated the American lifestyle of what he thought was without morals.

No, I'm no expert. However, I have taken it upon myself to do research to find out why, "They hate us for our freedoms." **referring to Bush

The penalty for throwing shoes at someone in Iraq is 40 hammer blows to the scrotum, unless the someone is a whore, in which case the shoes should be burned and the thrower will receive two virgins in paradise.

Inept as the Shrub is at almost everything, he does duck quite nimbly. And not just Arab shoes, either.

Wonder when some Iraqi will make a "matching" YouTube clip showing people whacking *Shrub's* portrait with their shoes -- a whacking the Shrub couldn't duck and one which would nicely parallel the public opinion of those two "rulers".

Here's another example from 3 weeks ago:

Organizers placed an effigy of Bush on the same pedestal where the giant Saddam statue stood before it was knocked down on April 9, 2003.
After a mass prayer, demonstrators pelted the Bush effigy with plastic water bottles and shoes. One man standing on the pedestal hit it in the face with his sandal". The article has a picture.

It's funny how quick Bush's immediate physical reflexes are, in comparison to his dull lack of situational insight and foresight at the higher level.

"But for many in Iraq, devastated by years of bloodshed following Bush’s decision to invade in 2003, and for others around the world annoyed by one of the least popular U.S. presidents, Zaidi may be seen as a hero." waleed ibrahim, journalist/eyewitness to the incident (reuters blog)

Dana Perino is reported to have suffered a black eye in the melee. Popped with a microphone.

Accident?

I can't decide whether to say "Damn Liberal press" because he missed or applaud with "Now that's a real Liberal press!"

Either way it's good to see the Iraqis feeling free enough to express feelings. Naturally Bush would take credit for that and claim the entire excursion to Iraq has been a success.

I can't imagine we'll ever see Bush apologize.

Well, maybe "healthy"

bleh says "[Bush is] young and healthy, though."

First time I've ever heard a geezer in his sixties described as "young."

Come now you are asking what brand shoe it was? It could only be one brand - Candies. Remember we were supposed to be getting candies and chocolates thrown at us when we invaded Iraq. You know George Bush has done a lot of harm to this country but if we had had an invader who's done what he's done to Iraq done it us, I would have done the same thing if I had had the opportunity. I hope the guy is okay and doesn't end up being water boarded or electic shocked in his genitals or whatever other torture Cheney has okayed as legal.

If the take-away from this war is "Bush invaded Iraq" and not "America invaded Iraq," that is VERY good for America.

I think that Congress needs to officially name the campaign in Iraq "Bush's War". All of the military units that have served there should have campaign streamers that say "Bush's War 2007" or what not, to remind them why we went to war. (Because Bush decided to. No more, no less.)

I also think we need a surtax on wealthy Americans, maybe 5% of the income above $500k. New line on the tax form labeled "Surtax for Bush's War", to be paid until the cost of the war is paid off.

First, garnash, you misread (and misrepresented) what I said above. Context matters.

Second, what actually isn't nice is to deliberately mis-state people's names.
Especially in ways that are intended to be disrespectful of a particular ethnic, racial, or religious group.

No doubt you think of yourself as a liberal person. You're not.

Other than:

A. Violating norms of journalistic objectivity (which are overrated anyway, and maybe the guy was a op-ed writer); and

B. Wasting a good shoe,

Nothing wrong with it, Steve.

===

Garnash -- Mr. BirnBAUM (spell his name right) had some insightful and accurate insights. All you had was pointless trolling.

Link below to petition in support of al Zaidi and addresses for places to send shoes in solidarity.
http://justpeacenow.blogspot.com/2008/12/soleful-send-off.html

Link below to petition in support of al Zaidi and addresses for places to send shoes in solidarity.
http://justpeacenow.blogspot.com/2008/12/soleful-send-off.html
Posted by: Laura on

That is hilarious. The political left is a boundless source of jokes for the rest of us. The guy certainly had the desired effect in setting off loons here.

Awhile back Hilzoy's thoughts and prayers were with the Mucasey after he fainted while giving a speech defending torture. Bush has killed and maimed tens of thousands of Iraqis. Imprisoned and tortured who knows how many. Caused the displacement of millions from their homes. And when an Iraqi, who reportedly survived a 2007kidnapping, throws a shoe at Bush Hilzoy writes: "Personally, I don't like people throwing shoes at anyone."

Geeeezzzzzzz

God, this place has tanked since Drum left.

You can find Kevin here. Just don't tell him I sent you.

And Larry Birnbaum has been a valued contributor to the threads here for quite a long while. Your hateful, deliberately disrespectful trolling is uncalled for and tells us all we need to know about the likes of you.

Kevin Drum left? When? Why? Is he coming back?

[Kevin now blogs at Mother Jones, and Steve and Hilzoy are the Washington Monthly bloggers now. This change happened months ago, and is permanent. -Mod]

Muntathar al Zaidi is my new hero! I wish he'd been wearing cleats and that'd he'd hit the hollow-headed maroon.

HA, Check this out, hilarious! http://www.shortershelflife.com/

The kids are getting quick these days!!

How about a flash game where Bush is dodging shoes and pretzels while riding a segway.

And there you go - THIS IS BUSHES LEGACY!!!!!

Folks, history has been made again for the U.S.

This will be the most viewed video in history!!

Can't wait to find out what Ahmadinejad, Chavez, & Putin has to say.

Bushes legacy:

He's a dodger -

1. Shoe dodger

2. Crisis dodger

3. reality dodger

4. emotion dodger......

Hey, did you see the security guys boil out of that back room behind The Texas Turnip? I wonder why they have to have a bunch of muscle stashed away in the pantry - wouldn't they make a better show out front? But then, I was forgetting; Iraq is free and relatively peaceful now, thanks to that wonderful man. It wouldn't look good to have a phalanx of guards surrounding The Turnip while he's congratulating himself on what a great job he did in the country where he did it.

That guy sure didn't look like he was trying to miss, he winged them wingtips like he meant business. And that would have been the laugh of the century if Shrubbie had been cold-cocked by a leather rocket on live TV. I thought he looked like he'd been hitting the free booze all the way across anyway; it's surprising to see him display such quick reflexes.

I just left the website worldfocus.org

Apparently, after they wrestled the reporter to the ground, there was blood on the carpet - it's not saying whose blood.

Also, the guy's manager says he's been trying to reach him, but his phone is turned off.

According to the report, he is in custody somewhere - and they are calling on all reporters to stand in solidarity for his release.

He used to test souls
by what he saw in eyes,
But now seeing soles
shows detest and despise.

Bush is apparently joking about it,

saying, "I don't know what the man said to me, but I saw his sole." **meaning the sole of his shoe.

He then compared the protests of this incident to the protest in the U.S.!!!!

If I thought it'd do any good I'd toss a pair of old Reebok's, but Katrina didn't bust the bubble. Iraq didn't bust the bubble. Inside the bubble, the right people keep their ill-gotten gains while the wrong people lose their jobs and homes and still get stuck footing the bill.

Modern conservatism is a psychological disorder.

Well, I guess since Bush doesn't look at the news or read the newspapers - he missed the warning.

see - http://www.davidstuff.com/bagdad-bob.htm
the Iraqi Miniser of Information
here he said that Bush & Rumsfeld will be hit with shoes.

***apparently, be hit with someone shoe means they are like the dirt on your shoe.

He clowned Bush, stating that he speaks better english than Bush.....

Reporter reporter reporter shooooooeeewhing!

We must make sure that our president is protected from such outrageous behavior!...
...and once we put Bush behind bars, he will be.

The shoes Munther Al-Zaidi did not accept that defiles in the Bush dirty

The shoes Munther Al-Zaidi did not accept that defiles in the Bush dirty

"striking them with shoes, is a serious insult in the Arab world."

I live in the Arab world, and I'm really tired of hearing this remark. Tell me, is hitting someone with a shoe considered to be affectionate in America?

Sean,

Sounds like you're a GOPer.

Just because you're tired of hearing this remark, doesn't give you the right to take away people's right to bask in their joy - just to be able to say those very words.

To us, this is history in the making.
To us, this is Karma!
To us, we just LOVE it

Now go away, and let us get the laughs we deserve, especially in light of our current economic situations here.

Am I the only one who noticed how quickly and easily the President dodged the first shoe and deflected the second? The man is 62 and has the reflexes of a young Bruce Lee It made me proud to be an American.

I see the morning cable networks are giving the Blagojevich story more time than this insult to Boy George.

I think this incident deserves more news coverage. Here's why:

1. the Iraqi's can barely protect their own high-ranking officials

2. here in the U.S., no one can get that close the president

3. Judging by the videotapes, looks like the secret service guy was going toward the reporter, instead of trying to shield, or cower the pres. What if others started throwing things - could this agent stop all the people in the room. He looked dazed and confused!

4. this president didn't know the culture or traditions of a country he invaded, why?

5. this president makes a joke out of it, in the face of the Iraqi's anger about the deaths of Iraqi women & children. Not a good time to make a jokes. To me, that's disrespectful to make a joke like this out of someone's mourning & despair.
***this reminds me of when his mother made the comment that the New Orleans people were living better at the Super Dome than before the hurricane hit.

6. It needs to be more discussed about this president's midnight signings of law & executive orders. In fact, this one may not stick, because Iraqi politicians from other parties are discussing how to force out Al Maliki with a no-confidence vote. ***He's too sneaky.

7. It also needs more coverage, because the Iraqi reporter has been beaten and is in custody. He is considered a hero in the muslim world - and if something happens to him, guess who gets the blame? We do, and we will be blamed. This will not make it any safer for our troups.

I think we should be more offended that our own president lied us into war and ruined the lives of millions of Iraqis. Over 100,000 Iraqis and 4,200 soldiers are dead for reasons that never existed. Instead of complaining whether someone throws a shoe at Bush, why aren't we outraged, discussing, and doing something about bringing Bush & Cheney to justice?

Look, I know throwing a shoe at someone is not nice and at a foreign leader, it's even worse. But we should really be focusing on what the Bushies did and what are we going to do to hold them accountable. THAT'S what this discussion should be about.

Actually, this is the perfect way to end his reign. Not with assassination, in which case we'd all have to put up with endless dirges about how he was some sort of misunderstood genius, nor with the vapid platitudes we're bound to get from Obama when he takes the reins. Bush is the most incompetent president in more than a century and he deserves to understand that most of the world think he's vermin. Look at it from the Iraqis point of view - we're all supposed to get terribly animated and upset because 9/11 killed 3000 people. This guy has killed ONE HUNDRED TIMES that number of people in a country which had nothing to do with 9/11 and couldn't have fought its way out of a wet paper bag, far less attacked the USA, and Bush knew it.

He got, and deserves, nothing but contempt. Forget about "knowing people's customs" - not killing hundreds of thousands of people is generally considered a custom everywhere in the world, apart from in his head.

Pop quiz - Hussein may (?) have killed more people, but he's dead now. There may also be a ex-Tutsi leader in Rwanda with more ticks against his name - not sure. But since the Khmer Rouge leaders are all gone now (as have the Ayatollah Khomenei, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Mao and all the significant Nazis), is there anyone else alive on the planet who's personally responsible for more deaths than Bush?

Honest question - if you can think of anyone who's still alive, I'm interested. I'm not looking for glib answers like Exxon or "Chinese power stations" - named individuals only.

We are a stupid society because we cannot do math outside of a calculator. We spend 300 million dollars a day in Iraq and there are approximately 140,000 soldiers. The highest number that has been published is about 5 million dollars a day to support those troops. 295 million dollars a day goes to private firms who for the most part pay no income taxes or unemployment and of course show no profit as is the nature of US companies that live off of our taxes. That is why we are staying in Iraq. Your president is not delusional, he just has Iraqi and American citizens die so Dick Cheney's companies can make money.

NPR reports this morning that thousands of iraqis are protesting, demanding the journalist's release. i think the fact that he missed makes this nothing but funny.

While most of us would love to be on the pitching end of those shoes, the act itself is appalling and disrespectful. Not that this man called it like he saw it, but that we have reach a level of such hatred that a man was willing to risk his life to throw shoes. In our country, those shoes would have been considered a deadly weapon and I believe that is punishable for life here if an American threw the shoes at MR. Bush the president-removed. We need to dump Iraq now. Count up our losses and get our own country back on its feet where we can once again earn the worlds respect.

It's not surprising Dingus' ducking reflexes are so sharp -- he's had over fifty years experience ducking all responsibility and accountability.

It was perfect. I agree that the Bush administration should be held accountable for all that they've done, but it was nevertheless a very cathartic thing to see.

Pop quiz - Hussein may (?) have killed more people, but he's dead now. There may also be a ex-Tutsi leader in Rwanda with more ticks against his name - not sure. But since the Khmer Rouge leaders are all gone now (as have the Ayatollah Khomenei, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Mao and all the significant Nazis), is there anyone else alive on the planet who's personally responsible for more deaths than Bush?
Posted by: al

I'm pretty sure W never ordered the gassing of a portion of a population, never stood up a Gulag with millions being worked to death, never stood up Killing Fields, never attempted to exterminate Jewry, etc, etc. He did unleash internal tensions in Iraq, which erupted.

He also has brought fledging democracy to a corner of the world and to an Arab culture that has rarely seen it. I'm pretty sure Stalin, Pol Pot, Khomeini, etc, never had the rise of democracy as a desired end state.

So your comparison of Bush to them is disgusting.

hi,
at first i'm arabic,Muslim guy
I think b4 we talk about this incident , u have 2 c how happy was the majority of Iraqis,arabic&Muslim people were after zis incident ,
do u know why ?? hih??
not because we hate you Americans ,but because of wat u have done to arab people
u did nothing except killing, injure &mockery them , just , no more
Just Do u think that a couple of shoes is enough??!!
Justimagine ue self at there place , and tell me wat u ganna do??????

See this is what kind of bothers me about my fellow liberals. The stereotype is "Liberals are pussies" and posts like this kind of reinforce that.

"Personally, I don't like people throwing shoes at anyone". See, that's a pussy thing to say. Fuck that, I'd put a bullet in GW and Cheney faster than you could tie your shoes and then go eat breakfast without a care in the world. The only problem I have with this video is that the guy missed.

Is Mohammed the Egyptian not the best sphinxter in the thread? I hope he enjoys sharing a cell
with Elbows, who diplays the mental acuity of the Governor of Illinois.

Bush is not a dodger. He was a tiny part owner of the Texas Rangers. The main owners called him the managing partner, but even those guys were smart enough to let him be the real CEO, that was Bob Schieffer's little brother. The Rangers never won a pennant. Bush never won a war. Or found any oil.

Have you ever heard of anyone being seriously hurt by flying footwear? Not me. Considering the damage Bush has wrought in the mideast, sneakers of mass destruction are the least he deserves. Muntadar al-Zaidi is a hero.

That being said, I was kinda proud of Bushie, too! Catlike reflexes on the man! Catlike, I tell you!

Red State Mike wrote: He did unleash internal tensions in Iraq, which erupted.

Yeah, because miraculously enough, the US military and its mercenaries caused no civilian deaths in Iraq at all.

And quit pretending Iraq is a legitimate democracy -- if it were, it wouldn't need our troops there to prop it up. The fact that you still try, however unsuccessfully, to whitewash Bush's war crimes -- and "not quite as bad as Stalin and Pol Pot" isn't a hell of a recommendation -- is what's disgusting.

Ricky, OH NOES IM GOING TO JAIL.

"I'm pretty sure W never ordered the gassing of a portion of a population, never stood up a Gulag with millions being worked to death, never stood up Killing Fields, never attempted to exterminate Jewry, etc, etc. "

I never said he did. I said he's responsible for the death of about 300,000 people in Iraq. Note that this is approximately half the highest estimate out there - I'm cutting him some slack here.

"He did unleash internal tensions in Iraq, which erupted."

I think you'll find that soldiers under his command killed a great many people. Some wearing a uniform, some not. He is responsible for that.

"He also has brought fledging democracy to a corner of the world and to an Arab culture that has rarely seen it. I'm pretty sure Stalin, Pol Pot, Khomeini, etc, never had the rise of democracy as a desired end state."

And I'm pretty sure that staying in their jobs after a series of monumental failures wasn't their end state either.

"So your comparison of Bush to them is disgusting."

I didn't say that either the numbers or motivations were equal (the dead leaders have all killed more). What I said was that I can't name anyone alive on the planet today who has taken a decision which has led to more deaths. Had he not decided to invade Iraq, these people would not be dead. Ergo, he's responsible.

Not that I imagine for one moment that he feels responsible for anything.

What I said was that I can't name anyone alive on the planet today who has taken a decision which has led to more deaths. Had he not decided to invade Iraq, these people would not be dead. Ergo, he's responsible.

Oh, so he didn't have to actually order the deaths, he just had to make a decision from which you can derive a connection to the deaths? Well then, I offer you Bill Clinton. His decision to not declare genocide in Rwanda and to look the other way led to somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 deaths in 100 days.

Thank you for playing.

The reason no Iraqi reporter ever threw shoes at Saddam Hussein is that he would have been tortured to death, and his entire family massacred on top of that.

And, perhaps more importantly, no one would ever have known about it, at least not in context, because reports of the event would be suppressed or the identity and the background of the protester would be changed to suit the propaganda interests of the regime.

People may be willing to make self-sacrificial gestures of protest, but they certainly unwilling to do so when the sacrifice is certain to fail in getting the message of protest heard.

throw a loafer at the loafer!

"Oh, so he didn't have to actually order the deaths, he just had to make a decision from which you can derive a connection to the deaths? Well then, I offer you Bill Clinton. His decision to not declare genocide in Rwanda and to look the other way led to somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 deaths in 100 days.

Thank you for playing."

If it's a battle of wits you're after, I tend not to pick on defenceless men so you're shit out of luck. Clinton made the same decision every other leader in the world made - not to get as involved as he should. Bush was the only one who made the explicit decision that lots of people should die in Iraq in order to distract from his shattering incompetence.

Anyway, you can do better than that - you're a Republican. Surely you should be hammering the critical point that Clinton got a blow job from a fat-titted intern; that's clearly more important than the death of thousands.

Clinton made the same decision every other leader in the world made -
Posted by: al

Good point. Pretty much the entire UN has blood on its hands from that one. A real moment in courage, that. And throw your name in their too, since it appears you felt it was the right thing to do to just stand to the side and let the genocide occur.

I think Bush is going to be a figure who's utterly reviled in the mideast (and a lot of other places) for the next 50 years. -- nadia.

I think Bush is going to be a figure swinging at the end of a rope in a lot less than 50 years.

That said, I also wondered whether Bush would have had any sense at all of how angry a lot of Iraqis are had this not happened. I'm not saying that that makes it OK; just wondering. -- Hilzoy.

Well, Hilzoy, what about "just wondering" how angry you'd feel if your beloved country were invaded, occupied and destroyed, along with all your closest friends and relatives, aliens.

The truth of the matter is, I suspect, that Bush and his gang have every sense acutely tingling and on edge as to how vulnerable they are to a whole host of potential indictments for a whole host of crimes, including murder. Why else would they all of a sudden scramble to invent a myth, contrary to the known evidence, of some faulty WMD intelligence as their excuse for the Iraq fiasco?

.. by aliens. (guess that's obvious)

sjrsm, care to link to any Republicans arguing for intervention? That is, before the Left started advocating it and criticizing the Clinton administration for inaction?

The deafening silence of the Right on this issue only shows you're grasping for straws.

Bush chose to invade a country that was no threat to the US. Chose to allow indiscriminate bombing, chaos to follow the invasion while the Oil Ministry was secured and weapons depots were not.

sjrsm, why don't you just shut the hell up.

sjrsm, care to link to any Republicans arguing for intervention?

That's all that matters for you, isn't it? Somewhere around 1,000,000 die, and you want to use it to argue repubs versus dems?

I argued for it when it was going on, and I still think we should have intervened. What was your take back then? Stand aside and let it happen? Probably. Moral coward.

sjrsm, why don't you just shut the hell up.
Posted by: Dr. Morpheus

Because morons like you need to hear the truth outside their little circle jerks pyramid schemes of group-think.